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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 25 May 1966

Vol. 222 No. 14

Committee on Finance. - Vote 35—Lands (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:
That a sum not exceeding £3,155,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1967, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Offices of the Minister for Lands and of the Irish Land Commission.
—(Minister for Lands).

I was dealing last night with the case raised by Deputy Murphy about this allegedly poor widow with £11,000 in land bonds lying to her credit in the Land Commission and the reasons for it. The negotiations in the case were carried out in 1963 and at that time it was alleged that these lands were let in grazing up to the end of February, 1964. However, the owner's solicitor wrote to us on 20th February, 1964 saying that possession would not be available until 1st February, 1965 as the lands were let for grazing for two years from January, 1963 and the grazier was not prepared to terminate the letting after one year. This decision, which enforced a long delay, cannot be attributed in any way to the Land Commission. Writing on 11th March, 1964 and agreeing to the postponement of possession, the Land Commission suggested to the owner's solicitors that the intervening time could be used to make progress on the examination of title even before they got possession.

As I pointed out, the title was lodged on 12th August, 1964 and within a month, on 10th September, 1964, rulings on title were issued and Form E was published in Iris Oifigiúil on 11th September 1964. This is a form which is part of a legal procedure which shows that the lands have been sold to the Land Commission, so these dates are not just dates being trotted out by me. They are dates verifiable from official documents including the publication in Iris Oifigiúil of the date I have mentioned.

Only one ruling has been discharged and that was on 27th April, 1966 and the other three rulings are still outstanding. If these rulings had been attended to between September 1964 and 1st February, 1965, when possession was taken, the purchase money in this case could have been allocated to the owner away back in February 1965. At that time the 6 per cent land bonds were quoted at 98.

Does the Minister mean by a ruling what is ordinarily meant by a requisition on title?

Exactly. I will quote the exact rulings in this case in a moment when I get the record of dates right. I said that at that stage the land bonds were quoted at 98 and did not fall substantially until the following June.

On the actual mechanics of the issue of the rulings upon title, as Deputy Dillon has elucidated, rulings on title are simply another name for what solicitors call requisitions on title, the difference being that in the ordinary transaction of an ordinary private sale between one solicitor and another, there are generally requisitions which are questions on the title numbering from 25 to 42, or more, depending on the type of title involved. In this case there had been only four rulings or four requisitions on title or four questions to be answered and certainly in my whole experience, I never saw four more simple requisitions made by the Examiner's Office of the Land Commission than were made in this case.

The Land Commission could ascertain for themselves.

Let the Deputy be his age. What is the owner's solicitor paid to do? He is paid to answer requisitions on title like every other solicitor.

Why did the Land Commission vest the land in themselves?

The Deputy is going to hear the truth in this case whether he likes it or not because I am going to get it on the record.

Be fair about it.

I am giving the whole facts to the Deputy. The Deputy wants to shout me down. He does not want to hear the facts after making wild accusations in this House.

They are not wild accusations. You are making wild accusations.

The Minister is entitled to be heard and should be allowed to be heard.

The Minister is abusing the privilege of the House.

The Deputy spoke without interruption.

The Minister continuously interrupted me. You were not as observant then as you are now.

The Minister should be allowed to explain the position without interruption.

I allowed him to interrupt me. I thought he would be gracious enough to listen to me.

Nobody is allowed to interrupt except on a matter of order.

He asked me several questions.

On 1st February, 1965, possession of this estate was given by the owner to the Land Commission and on 19th February, 1965 the estate vested in the Land Commission and the purchase money of £11,000 in 6 per cent land bonds was put to the credit of that estate, which is the usual practice, and since that date, since 19th February, 1965, this 6 per cent interest is accumulating along with this principal, until the title is proved.

Here are the rulings issued by the Examiner of Titles on 10th September, 1964: (1) copies of folios 18174 and 18208 of County Cork written up to the date of vesting of the lands in the Land Commission should be produced. That is the first one and that is the only one that has been completed. (2) Show discharge of outgoings as provided by clause (4) of the Proposal to Purchase. The discharge of outgoings was provided for in the contract, in the agreement by the Land Commission to purchase these lands. It was this owner's duty or the owner's solicitors' duty, to show the discharge of outgoings the same as every other owner who sells land must do. I should like to see Deputy Murphy buying a holding in the dark and taking a chance on whether there were rates owing or any other outgoings.

He would not part with it until he was paid for it.

The third was to produce a letter from the Estate Duty Office that they have no claims against the purchase money for death duties. This is a stock requisition and stock ruling in every case, not alone by the Land Commission but in every other transaction as between farmer and farmer buying land in this country. The fourth requisition was: if the parish was plotted for lay tithes, are lay tithes payable?

These were the four requisitions, and the only four, the four rulings on title, issued on 10th September, 1964 and, with the exception of sending up the copy folios which I assume the owner's advisers had in their offices, not a thing has been done since.

That is untruthful, as I can bear out here. It is a deliberate lie on your part. Well, it is an untruthful statement.

The Deputy must withdraw the word "lie."

Yes, but it is untruthful.

Does the Deputy withdraw the word "lie"?

I do and I substitute "untruthful".

I am giving the facts to the House because of the allegations made here. None of these rulings on title, with the exception of the first one, has yet been discharged by this owner's solicitors and, to lean over backwards, to try and help this owner, a letter was sent to her by me, through my Private Secretary, which covers the facts as I have set them out here, in the following terms:

I am desired by Mr. Ó Moráin, Minister for Lands, to state that on receipt of your letter with enclosure addressed to the Taoiseach he had inquiries made in the Land Commission. He was informed that the Land Bonds representing the purchase money in above matter cannot be distributed until the legal proceedings in connection with the investigation of title thereto are completed. The documentary evidence of title furnished by your solicitors in August, 1964 was investigated by an Examiner of Title and queries arising on such investigation were issued by him to the solicitors on 10th September, 1964. None of these queries has been discharged yet. Possession of the lands was obtained on 1st February, 1965. The lands were vested in the Land Commission on the 19th February, 1965 and the purchase money was placed to credit. When the queries that were issued by the Examiner to your solicitors are discharged the former will settle an allocation schedule for the distribution of the funds and a date can then be arranged for vouching and allocation. It is suggested that you get in touch with your solicitors with a view to having the matter expedited.

This is where I leaned over backwards to assist.

One of the rulings called for evidence from the Estate Duty Office that no claim for death duties attached to the purchase money. Should this matter be in dispute, and unlikely to be decided shortly then it is suggested that your solicitors should proceed to discharge the other rulings and arrange for a partial allocation of the funds pending the determination of the issue.

That is the first case in my experience in which they agreed even to a partial allocation of the funds if there was any delay with the Estate Duty Office in the certificate of discharge. So, here we have this money lying there—£11,000 —with the interest piling up on it——

The £11,000 is not lying there.

——with four simple rulings issued by the legal office to the Land Commission that any experienced clerk in a solicitor's office could deal with, and it is still lying there. It may be that land bonds have fallen in the meantime and that this woman has suffered. If she has suffered, she may have redress. There may be a way for this woman to recoup her loss but not in any action against me or against the Land Commission, and her £11,000, plus the accumulated interest, will be lying there until Tib's Eve until her advisers do what every single solicitor must do in every case——

Would the Minister not agree——

That is the tale of the sad destitute woman with £11,000 and——

(Interruptions.)

The Minister's statement is incorrect in many respects. I was endeavouring to elicit some information by way of question.

The Deputy has got more information than he bargained for. That is his difficulty.

I do not want to be drastic with Deputy Murphy but I must ask him to allow the Minister to conclude without interruption. It is in the Deputy's own interests to allow the Minister to make a statement without interruption.

The Minister's statement is most dishonourable.

The Minister does not like to be attacking his own profession——

It is my duty when these allegations are made here against the Land Commission, when they are in no way to blame for——

(Interruptions.)

I am warning Deputy Murphy that if he persists, I will have to ask him to leave the House.

This is a very important matter. There is an important principle involved.

If it is so important, the Minister should be allowed to speak.

Deputy O.J. Flanagan appealed——

I hope when the Minister has concluded, he will review this, that his conscience, if nothing else——

If there is somebody with qualms of conscience, we all know who it should be. It is not the Minister for Lands or the examiners of titles in the Land Commission.

I will have to report Deputy Murphy to the House and ask them to give their decision on his conduct.

Deputy Flanagan appealed for the cutting of red tape and the expenditing of Land Commission procedure. I agree entirely with these sentiments in so far as they can be achieved. We have gone a considerable distance on that road over the past couple of years. For instance, a matter was brought to my attention this very afternoon which 18 months ago, before the passing of the Land Act, would have been impossible to achieve. This was in regard to a farm which is up for sale and which was brought to the notice of the Land Commission on Monday afternoon. It has been inspected and there will be a Land Commission inspector bidding for it this afternoon. That is something that could not have been achieved until the changes were made in regard to the cutting of red tape and the streamlining of procedure. One of the main measures taken in recent times to achieve this was under the Land Purchase Rules of 1964, No. 230 of 1964, settled in consultation with the Incorporated Law Society and signed by me on 23rd September, 1964. These Rules amended the existing rules with the object of simplifying the procedure for the allocation of purchase money and other funds to the credit of the Land Commission. For the first time these Rules provided a procedure which enabled solicitors to deal direct with the Land Commission from their country offices without having to appoint a Dublin agent so that they could close sales just as they would in the ordinary course of business with any other purchaser.

Sections 15 and 16 of the Land Act, 1965 provide additional machinery for expediting the judicial allocation of moneys by the delegation of these decisions and functions to Examiners of the Land Commission rather than have them carried out by judges as heretofore, and secondly by the authorisation to accept a shorter root of title. The necessary delegation orders have been made by me so that all Examiners of the Land Commission are now empowered to authorise the distribution of the purchase money in these cases. Sections 32 and 37 raise the limits applicable to small holdings in respect of which there are small amounts of compensation or purchase money involved. The limits were raised in the different categories from £30 to £100, from £100 to £300 and from £300 to £2,000 and this will considerably facilitate and expedite the distribution of funds in these, as they are regarded, small cases of up to £2,000. For the purpose of expediting acquisition proceedings, section 27 of the 1965 Act affirms the power to decide on the inspection of land which will be delegated by the Minister for Lands to officers of the Land Commission not below the rank of senior inspector. The necessary delegation order has been made providing for this machinery and thus eliminates a source of delay at what might well be a critical stage.

I think it was Deputy Murphy who suggested that the inspector at the very bottom should have the power to divide the land straight away but while we cannot go that far, the fact that this power can be delegated to the senior inspector in the area is a big advance and has eliminated the passing up and down of files between the central office in Dublin and the inspector in charge in any particular area. Sections 36, 40 and 43 of the Land Act, 1965 provide for the delegation of the authority to the Land Commission, by the Minister for Finance, to sanction expenditure within certain limits and these limits have been settled. Apart from these provisions, administrative arrangements have been made under which the Land Commission have been authorised by the Minister to sanction expenditure so as to avoid the submission of cases over there.

The introduction of the auctioneer's commission in 1963 was designed to facilitate and expedite the purchase of land for land settlement. The rate of expenditure has grown from some £14,000 in 1963-64 to £47,773 in 1965-66. For the current year the Estimate contains an increased amount of £70,000. This change was one of the most effective ones in expedition and indeed in money-saving that I have made because we made very increased intakes in the intake machinery as a result of these arrangements. The position before was that auctioneers did not want to deal with the Land Commission when they did not get the commission which is customary in their business and they wanted to switch any land in their hands to any other purchaser outside the Land Commission.

Since this change, I am glad to say, as I said in my opening speech, we have the co-operation in a very big way of the auctioneering profession who now regard the Land Commission as their best potential purchaser and this in turn has in many cases eliminated not alone long delays but also expense because when we switch from the voluntary to the compulsory basis, involving long legal delays, the amount of expense incurred is far and away greater than the commission we are paying the auctioneer for the purpose of getting the lands that would be suitable for Land Commission purposes which come into their hands. Arrangements have been introduced whereby owners are invited to negotiate on price at the very commencement of acquisition proceedings. Such negotiations have been successful in a large number of these cases. Again, this obviates the long delays with objections and appeals on price to which I have already referred. Under section 47 and the First Schedule of the Land Act, 1965, which removed the hampering restrictions on cash purchases imposed by section 27 of the Land Act, 1950, a record area of land was bought for cash in the year 1965-66.

All these matters are part of the process of dismantling the long-established and built-in red tape procedure there for years. It is showing its results and has shown its results in the near record figures achieved on the intake side of the Land Commission machine last year. The Irish Law Times, which is the official organ of the legal profession, had this to say apropos of these alternations and changes that have been made:

The solicitors have cause to be grateful to the Minister for Lands who has shown a keen appreciation of the difficulties and delays of the previous practice and his willingness to meet the views of the Society and also to the Chief Examiner and to the solicitor for the Land Commission who have been so helpful and co-operative.

This organ of the legal profession appreciates the changes that have been made in the legal procedure to cut out the red tape and delays and to enable the more expeditious closing of sales and the more expeditious work that has been achieved through the changes made in procedure both by statutory rules and by administrative procedure I have already quoted.

On the acquisition side, Deputy O. J. Flanagan also made a complaint about slow procedure. But when an estate now comes to the notice of the Land Commission, inquiries are made without delay as to its suitability for land settlement purposes. If it is decided the lands are suitable by reason of ownership or user or prima facie to be acquired, proceedings are instituted forthwith.

Is the Minister sure that procedure is, in fact, carried out?

It is. I know what the Deputy has in mind. I propose to refer to it later. Delays are inevitable if statutory requirements must be complied with. Objections and appeals must get to hearing and in many cases this may warrant deferment of the proceedings in the interests of justice. You may find some old person involved who should be left possibly for a couple of years. You may find some family circumstances or something like that that may lead to deferment of proceedings. Each of these cases must be treated on an individual basis. Of course, if the owner in any particular instance objects to acquisition and is not prepared to agree voluntarily, we have to go through the compulsory acquisition procedure. That inevitably takes time because they have their statutory rights. Generally, the process of compulsory acquisition moves along the line of most rather than least resistance.

It must be borne in mind that when the Land Commission's powers of acquisition were granted by the Dáil they were carefully defined by statute and governed by rule. This was done in order to prevent the possibility of any hardship or injustice being done and to preserve as far as possible the freedom of the individual citizen. It would be unwise to remove any of these safeguards. The experience of the Land Commission in relation to the acquisition of lands emphasises most forcibly that it is in any case wise to hasten slowly. The owners of lands more than anybody else would have a genuine grievance if compulsory acquisition proceedings were hastily embarked on and without full and accurate information being obtained in regard to the circumstances of each individual case.

If it is brought to the notice of the Land Commission in good time that a farm is being sold, surely the Land Commission should at least investigate the possibility of acquiring that farm?

I certainly agree with the Deputy. May I point out however—I was going to refer to it later on but I will deal with it now—that under a particular section of the Land Act, 1965, certain regulations had to be made? This is what I call the stop section, where you have to serve a notice freezing the sale. I do not know whether the Deputy has seen the statements made in the House and by certain organisations up and down the country that they proposed to challenge that section if it were operated. Therefore, it behoved myself and my legal advisers and the Attorney General to be very careful as to the rules and regulations we would make to operate that particular section. It was only in about February of this year that the rules, regulations and forms under that section were finalised by my legal advisers. Therefore, it is only since that time that this section is in effective operation. I do not know what case the Deputy has in mind. Did it arise before the beginning of March this year?

Before and after.

Before the date I am giving the Deputy this section was not in operation for the reason I am telling him.

That is reasonable enough.

The section is in operation now. I have given the Deputy the reasons for the delay.

The Land Commission need not take the advice to hasten slowly literally because they are doing that anyway.

The figures I have quoted in the House this year show that the slow hastening has been a bit faster during the past 12 months.

In answering letters to Deputies?

The experience of the Land Commission in relation to the acquisition of land has been by and large what I have pointed out. There is really no quickfire methods of dealing with this problem. I know I have the usual complaints here about the slowness of the Land Commission in the distribution of lands on their hands. I have pointed out on various occasions both inside and outside this House that where the Land Commission let lands, it is not for the purpose of gaining revenue. They have got to let them on a short term basis. By and large over their whole operation, it is a financial loss to the Land Commission. On strict economics, it would pay the Land Commission if on the day following that on which they took in a farm on the acquisition side, they could get it out again. I know it is felt in the minds of Deputies that the Land Commission want to let land for the purpose of getting revenue. I want to assure the House that that is not so.

There was a practice in the Land Commission that I have put an end to, that where they acquired land but had not sufficient to make a reasonable scheme they left it there. They hoped that the lands of John Brown or Pat Murphy or whoever you like would come on the market in two or three years' time. Therefore, they held on to this land in the hope of getting sufficient land to make a proper scheme of division for the area. That gave rise to a number of complaints by Deputies and others immediately concerned. This direction was issued by me through the Chief Inspector of the Land Commission on 18th January, 1965, in connection with the disposal of lands on hands and it has gone to each inspector in the country. The reference is SR.3164 and it reads as follows:

The following policy directions should be noted and implemented.

I am entitled to give policy directions to the Land Commission——

All lands in the hands of the Land Commission should be schemed and allotted to the approved allottees as quickly as practicable. In future lands should not be retained on hands longer than two years save where the Commissioners specifically direct otherwise. The practice of holding lands on hands pending the acquisition of other lands in the neighbourhood with a view to the formulation of a composite scheme should be discontinued.

That is the official directive to every inspector dealing with land.

If it is carried out, it is a good idea.

There are special difficulties in certain cases and it cannot be applied in every case. However, that is the overriding direction given to every inspector. They are supposed to do that. If they took too quick a jump over this fence, I would have many complaints in this House when my Estimate would be introduced about the people who had not been visited within the mile distance or the half-mile distance, and so on. The division of land, as experienced Deputies know, particularly in congested areas, is a very difficult business. Every applicant, whether he is entitled to the land or not, once he is within the policy distance feels—and rightly so—that all the circumstances of his case should be thoroughly examined, and this takes time. The staff of the Land Commission who have to go through all these things is limited.

Deputy Flanagan inquired about the number of applicants for the pension scheme under section 6 of the Land Act, 1965. We have 59 applications. I cannot give the Deputy the breakdown of this for the reason that the pension regulations with the actuary and the Department of Finance are not yet finalised. However, there are 59 files in respect of people anxious to deal with us on this.

Two more since last week? There were 57 last week, is that not right?

Fifty-nine is the latest information I have.

It is encouraging to see the number going up.

Yes, and this is a completely new business that the people are not used to. Indeed in regard to this new proposal, like all new proposals, particularly in the congested areas, I do not believe we shall see the full effect of it until we have one, two, three or four in different parts of the congested areas adopting it, because our people, especially in the part of the country from which I come, are inclined to look over the neighbour's wall to see how he is getting along before adopting something new. The fact that we have 59 applicants on file is an encouragement as far as the operation of that section is concerned.

I agree with Deputy Flanagan that the regional game councils deserve to be congratulated on their work. While both I and my advisers have always welcomed the councils' interest and turned an attentive ear to their requests, this year I went a step forward, as I mentioned, and convened a general meeting of the game councils for full consultations and discussions on current game problems. This meeting proved so well worth while that it is my hope that we shall have many more of them.

In so far as a private hatchery works in with the regional game councils, it can get assistance within the frameworks of the councils' local game scheme that is presented annually to my Department. If the hatchery has plans for supplying these shoots, I have no doubt that the new joint committee will be prepared to consider giving it assistance.

Deputy Flanagan asked whether the joint committee would be submitting recommendations to me or whether I would have funds to put their recommendations into effect. I want to make it clear that I have allocated full power to the joint committee to act within a certain sphere, and to start them off, I have put £15,000 at their disposal this year to spend as they see fit within their terms of reference. Their authority does not extend to unusual or novel items, which must come to me for approval, but they have a blanket cover to go ahead with what they think fit. Domestic game development schemes will continue to be dealt with by my Department as they were before the establishment of this committee. As the Deputy knows, the Game and Wild Life Section of my Department deal with these game councils who submit their plans and their budgets. These plans are discussed and approved, and we give grants to the councils.

I agree wholeheartedly with Deputy Flanagan in regard to the scientific and advisory personnel which I have recruited being personally concerned with this aspect of game organisation, and I am satisfied that, within the limits of our resources, we shall be able to provide an advisory service as efficient as can be provided anywhere else, given some time. I appreciate very much the help and co-operation which are forthcoming from game and wild life authorities abroad in the provision of training and practical experience for our personnel. As Deputies are aware, we have some men training abroad, and we hope to have these, together with our scientific adviser, Dr. O'Gorman, back soon. The expertise acquired by these men will be of tremendous benefit to our game councils. Their knowledge will be available to the game councils and once we get them back, we shall have in my Department the nucleus of expertise in this field which we did not have before and which will have, I am sure, a profound impact on the work of game councils throughout the country.

The progress which has been made in the development of our game resources in recent years has been such that the attraction of sportsmen from abroad and the provision of shooting facilities for them without interference with the legitimate and established rights and preserves of our own sportsmen and sporting organisations are now important objectives of our development policy. The attainment of these objectives holds the promise of important economic advantages for the entire community, and I am happy to say that this fact is accepted by the game councils. I believe that, as a result of our recent discussions, we have made very considerable progress in this field and that in addition to increasing the facilities for our own sportsmen and improving the habitat and improving game generally, this other job of attracting visiting sportsmen can go ahead at the same time, and I think it will go ahead now with the full co-operation of the game councils involved. The matter has been discussed very fully with them and we are now, I think, working fairly well in harmony in this scheme.

Let me stress once more the importance of land bonds in our scheme of things. Deputies who decry land bonds are doing—I am sure unconsciously—a grave disservice to the land acquisition programme.

We are making the people wise. Some of them now are a lot wiser than Mrs. McCarthy.

The Deputy should get wise himself and not make unfounded allegations in this House. I will give him a Roland for his Oliver. However, let us get back to land bonds. The major part of all lands purchased is paid for in land bonds. The normal relationship is approximately five to one as between land bonds and cash. That was the position up to last year. I shall explain why it did not continue last year. Last year our expenditure on land bonds was £1,500,000 and there was only one-fifth of that amount for purchases in cash. Most of our land is purchased by voluntary agreement and the people concerned are prepared to deal with the Land Commission in land bonds. None of these is third class national school and if a land bond is valued at £100 and the cash value is only £98, the purchaser naturally insists on getting an extra payment in bonds to make up for the difference in the cash value.

That is what I am asking the Minister to give Mrs. McCarthy.

A Cheann Comhairle, if you cannot restrain the exuberance of the continuous verbal diarrhoea from which Deputy M.P. Murphy is suffering, I shall not be able to continue to deal with my Estimate. I was saying that the amount——

(Interruptions.)

——of land is a very important factor in the acquisition programme. This year £2,500,000 is provided for the acquisition of lands through the medium of land bonds. That is a very substantial amount and is, I think, the highest ever provided.

Why does the Minister not guarantee them at par?

I have asked the Deputy to control himself. He evidently is not taking any notice of what I say. I shall not repeat my warning. I will name the Deputy and ask that he be removed the next time he interrupts.

That figure of £2,500,000 in land bonds is the highest amount ever made available for the acquisition of lands and I hope the significance of it will be seen on the intake side of the Land Commission machine.

The new bonds are issued at 7 per cent. They are a gilt-edged security. They are quite marketable and there are very few instances—I cannot think of one at the moment—in which there is a gilt-edged security giving that return. It is quite a substantial return. There have been some recent issues of debentures by some of the industrial giants at 7¼ per cent but the people who buy those are taking the risk attached to fixed interest securities. In non-gilt-edged markets their fortunes may go up and down in accordance with the prosperity or otherwise of these concerns. In the case of land bonds, the 7 per cent is assured. It is therefore an excellent security.

I want to emphasise that there is nothing wrong with either earlier issues or with the latest one at 7 per cent. We deal with the majority of our customers on a voluntary basis. They are prepared to take land bonds. In the case of the small man in which there is a sum of only £500 up to, perhaps, £2,000 involved, the invariable practice is for such a man to take cash. Possibly that is because these little people are not used to dealing in bonds. The bigger people are quite content with a return of 7 per cent. They can cash part of their bonds if they wish. They are quite prepared to do business in bonds, knowing they have Government security. If they were not so prepared, it would be very bad from the point of view of the intake machine. It would be a tragedy if people lost confidence in land bonds. There have been several issues. It is quite true that in the case of the earlier issues those who might wish to sell them now would do so at a considerable loss. However, that applies to every fixed interest security.

As I said, this year we have a sum of £2,500,000 to deal with the intake of land. We hope to make full use of that sum and we hope we will have the same success in acquiring land as we had in the past.

I said the ratio as between bonds and cash is about five to one. Last year we paid out £981,000 in bonds and £338,000 in cash. The reason we did not utilise more bonds last year was that we were waiting for the Bill to create the new issue. Of the total number of purchases last year, 67 per cent of those selling land to the Land Commission were quite happy to take land bonds. This year there is a sum of £175,000 provided for cash purchases. It is a substantial sum but if those on the Opposition benches who bewail this particular figure would be a little more constructive in their approach, it might be possible to cut down that figure of £175,000.

I should point out that in 1954-55 the amount provided for cash purchases was £4,530. In 1955-56, the amount provided for cash purchase was £9,650 and in 1956-57, £15,000. That ranged from £930 on this heading since 1954. When Deputy O'Hara complains about this, I would say to him that even in his part of the country they would put that in a child's fist rather than provide the sum of £930 for the purchase of land.

With regard to the case mentioned by Deputy Kitt, I gave particulars in reply to Parliamentary Questions in relation to that estate in Galway. In all these cases, the Land Commission prepare the schemes for the division of land. In these cases, there are personal particulars about different applicants within the half mile or mile radius, as the case may be—all the applicants concerned, in any event, for land. It has not been the practice of my predecessors, nor do I think it would be right for me, to go into these personal particulars in respect of any of the applicants on any particular file.

The fact remains that a scheme for the division of land must be made by the Land Commission. The relevant particulars are collected by whatever local inspectors are involved. The scheme is submitted to the inspector in charge, the senior inspector and the Land Commissioners and they finalise it, reject it, possibly amend it: that is their business. I never suggested that all my geese are swans and that there is not some man at some time in some of these cases who may not make a mistake. All I can say is that one Deputy suggested that it was a Fianna Fáil cumann in Cork that either migrated people to new holdings or divided the land whereas Deputy Kitt has said it is the Fine Gael people in Galway who divide the land down there.

I did no such thing. I said it was a Fine Gael inspector. I am not saying what he is, but he abused de Valera. He should not do that. It is not his function. The Minister should stop him.

With regard to the allegation made by the Deputy that some inspector of the Land Commission abused an applicant down there. I can assure the Deputy that I would take a very serious view of any of my inspectorate abusing anybody. I can assure Deputy Kitt that if he gives me the name of this inspector——

Yes, I will do that.

——and the party he is alleged to have abused, I shall have the matter fully investigated. Be the applicant right or wrong, it is one matter over which I, as Minister, will not stand. I will stand over my inspectorate—I am responsible for them— but any question of abuse of the public, no matter what the circumstances, will certainly be fully dealt with.

May I ask a question?

After the Minister has concluded, if the Deputy wants some matter elucidated.

Yes, on a matter that has not been elucidated yet.

Only a question.

Right. I had three questions down and I could have raised the matter on the Adjournment when the Minister would have had ten minutes to reply to me. I have not heard anything about the principal matter yet.

Which is?

Which is the Land Commission policy of giving the man with the biggest acreage the biggest addition. Has this kind of direction gone out from the Minister's office? Certainly, it has been the case with all the estates in County Galway recently. In other words, we are trying to save the family farm in the West. The Bishops are interested in this matter and so also is the Save the West Committee, of which I am a member. If it is the policy of the Minister, of the head of the Land Commission, to do away with the family farm and to make the poor poorer and the rich richer——

I can categorically state that no such direction has been given——

I shall give facts and figures to prove what I say.

If the Deputy asks me a question, he might wait for me to make the reply.

No such direction has gone from me to the Land Commission. As the Deputy, and I am sure most Deputies in congested areas, knows, the only change is the recent policy of aiming at larger units, the family farm of 40 to 45 acres of reasonably good land or its equivalent or bigger in the case of worse land, and that, within the half-mile radius, these should be built up where feasible in so far as the land is available to do it. The individual circumstances of each and every applicant must be taken into consideration. From the particular file that I have read in this case, I certainly cannot accept the allegation that the richest person in the place got the greatest addition of land. I have read the detailed personal particulars that were given of all these applicants. I can only say that, on the scheme as I have seen it, reasons were given for the division as it stood. At all events, the position is that the question of the division of land is one reserved to the Land Commission and, having taken all the relevant factors into consideration, they must come up with the best scheme they can.

I know quite well that in a land-hungry area it is virtually impossible to come up with a scheme that will satisfy everybody or half satisfy nobody. I have heard it said, with a lot of wisdom and truth, that the best scheme for the division of an estate is one in respect of which nobody is satisfied. That has been said and I think with a lot of truth because what has happened in this particular case is that the amount involved was something very small: the acreage was very small, all told. The real position is that they would need at least three or four times the amount of the land that was available to make a proper scheme there.

Commonsense could easily have done it. They were all round about it. Why bring in somebody from outside?

Far too many people think that all you have to do in dividing land is to call in the neighbours and to dish it out on the spot. I have been living in the midst of this all my life. There is nobody in this House who can tell me much about land division. Anybody who thinks it is only a question of picking up a pencil and paper or, as mentioned in this House some time ago, taking out the tongs and ashes and marking it out for them is mistaken.

This lends itself to natural division.

It is extraordinary, when we see a place on paper that seems to lend itself to natural division, that, when we go to dish it out, we discover the snags. We hear allegations. We hear one man claiming that his grandfather put 40 tons of much more on this field and therefore it is worth half the rest of it. Somebody else wants the bridle path and another person wants a place to the well. It is not as easy or as soft as it seems. I am sure everybody who is used to this matter knows the position.

The Deputy does not make false allegations in this House I brought up a case in relation to Ballyforan five years ago in this House and it was re-divided. I was right five years ago.

I am not suggesting the Deputy has made any false accusations. I am only saying to him that the division of land, as he well knows, is no simple matter. The estate to which he has referred is not the first one about which there were complaints as to fairness or equality. I get allegations of this kind quite often. I cannot go down and divide this land: it is not my function. It is reserved to these people whose job it is to deal with it. I have conveyed everything the Deputy has said to me to the Land Commission for their consideration.

If I submit further evidence, will the Minister accept it, and I shall be satisfied?

I can assure the Deputy that I shall ask the Land Commission fully to investigate any evidence he submits to me.

I am satisfied with that and I shall say no more. I am thankful. I know it will be put right in the end.

That facility will not be made available to members of other Parties?

This is an allegation of malfeasance by officials of the Department and if there is any of these made at any time by any Deputy or by anybody else, it is my duty to have them fully investigated.

Deputy Flanagan raised some question about re-arrangements. I may say that there is a hard core of rundale estate there. They are steadily disappearing and in regard to them, Deputy O'Hara mentioned that some people from the west of Ireland have got so found of the bright lights that they will not return and are leaving their lands derelict but that they would be prepared to deal with the Land Commission if they got cash offers. In so far as these people are concerned, they are free, white and 21, and if they want the bright lights from Timbuctoo to Yokohama, they are welcome to enjoy them, but so far as their lands are concerned, they are being put on a register being compiled by the Land Commission.

The reason more of them have not been gone after is lack of staff. We need more inspectors and with the increasing work under the new Land Act, we will need many more. We have 14 or 15 in training at the moment and we hope to get many more shortly. Any of those lands that have been let or derelict for a period of over five years will be the first to go on the list for acquisition for the relief of congestion. I have stated that as far as any local officer can get to these people they should be written to and told that the Land Commission are interested in purchasing their lands and that if they are not interested in coming back to them, the Land Commission will purchase them and that if they are not prepared to deal with us an that basis, we will use our compulsory powers.

They are getting this chance but these lands are not going to be left derelict or subject to the worse system of husbandry in the whole of Europe, the 11-months system, which encourages people to take everything out of the land without putting anything back. I intend to get after that problem as soon as I can get sufficient men to do the job and I hope, in the West, to bring a very substantial amount of land into the land pool from these let and derelict holdings. I think it is good for these people themselves and in their interests that these lands should not be left as they are.

In every case, if these people do not agree with the offer made by the Land Commission, they have the right of appeal. They are entitled to be paid the full market value and they will get that, but they will not be allowed to leave these derelict holdings going to ruin.

Will they be allowed to sell to a neighbour under this new dispensation?

That question is always given consideration and the Land Commission are always prepared to help. I have seen cases where the compulsory procedure had reached the stage of price fixing and, when a local congest wanted to buy the lands, the Land Commission allowed this to be done as a matter of practice.

The Land Commission officials are very reasonable.

They are quite reasonable, contrary to the public image that some people may have of them. Even before I came in here to this office, in my professional capacity, I was aware that in cases of the kind mentioned or where family circumstances were involved, the Land Commission were most reasonable in considering these matters. That was always the case and it still is the case. I want to say that this matter of derelict and neglected and let holdings is of considerable importance. Many of these people have no intention of ever coming back to this country. In many cases one would not blame them because times have changed. It is completely unrealistic to expect people in the congested areas to live on the three, four or five acres of snipe grass their grandfathers were driven to living on in the famine times. They will not starve in holy poverty on these places now.

Might I suggest that if the Minister is now recruiting staff for that type of work, the background and upbringing of these men is of great importance?

I could not agree more with the Deputy. If a man does not come from our part of the country, he has to be trained for the job. These new men will relieve more experienced men so that they can devote themselves to this particular kind of work. The qualities necessary in an inspector dealing with this work are not generally appreciated. Not alone must he be a good judge of land and agriculture but he must be a good psychologist as well. It takes a very special type of man to deal with re-arrangement.

On the whole, they have all these special qualifications.

Yes. As these men come in, they will do an intensive course of training before they are sent out. While I am on this question of re-arrangement, I would like to deal with a question raised by some Deputy about people who got Land Commission holdings of 15 or 20 acres long ago. That Deputy asked if these people were eligible. They are eligible and that is the simple answer to the question. In these days there were two borders in this country as far as Land Commission policy was concerned. Anybody west of the Shannon, once brought up to £10 valuation, was written off by the Land Commission. He was vested, irrespective of whether it was a scattered holding and, irrespective of the quality of land, he was supposed to have an economic holding.

That was a very wrong policy, in my view, because the people in the south could be regarded as uneconomic holders on valuations up to £35 while it was £10 in the West. That has gone and the new concept is the 40-45 acre family farm of reasonably good land or its equivalent in second-quality land. Any of these people not up to that standard, irrespective of their valuation or acreage or whether they got additions before or not, or whether they are migrants, come in under the new scheme of things.

There is, of course, the question of priorities and naturally the Land Commission will try to deal with the people who have been unrelieved and are waiting relief so long but if there is land within the policy distance for these people who have only 19 or 20 acres, whether from the Land Commission or otherwise, they are entitled to be considered under the new policy.

Let me turn to some matters raised on the forestry section of the Department. I think it was Deputy Flanagan who spoke about the provision of foresters' houses and suggested that no progress was being made on this front. I assure him this Estimate contains a provision of £85,000 for the construction and purchase of foresters' houses. That provision is almost double the amount spent for that purpose in 1965-66. As most Deputies are aware, foresters who do not have an official residence are paid an allowance in lieu for rent, an amount calculated in accordance with their conditions of service. I know progress was somewhat slower under this heading. I am not completely happy with it but it is a step in the right direction. It is not as easy as it may appear because problems arise about foresters' houses. Some do not want, as was formerly done, to live away up in the mountains in the midst of the forest. They want to live among the community and our forests are in the main in isolated areas.

There is no foundation for the suggestion by Deputy Flanagan that we are finding difficulty in filling the places in our training school at Kinnitty. We get our full requirements and the number coming forward in competitions to get into the forestry schools is as big as ever and competition among the trainees is extremely keen.

Regarding acquisition of land for forestry, the balance in the grant-in-aid fund on 31st March, 1966, was £141,000, which, with the amount of grant now provided in this Estimate of £140,000, brings the total available for acquisition of land for forestry development to £281,000. This figure is more than adequate to meet any foreseeable demand for land in the coming year. Expenditure, in fact, last year on acquisition was only £116,000. Over twice the amount of money is available this year for forestry land, if we get it. This has become more difficult year by year. The amounts becoming available are smaller in area; the cream of the milk has gone and where we could take in 200 or 300 acres of a big mountain at one stage, the plots are becoming smaller. Title and other difficulties slow up the intake machine but so far as money is concerned for the acquisition of land for forestry, there is more provided this year than has been spent. The Forestry Estimate this year is for £3,397,000, of which £281,000 is for land acquisition.

I regret I had to cut the programme to 20,000 acres this year. Deputies will appreciate that forestry is a capital expenditure and we know we had complaints from Deputies opposite and organs outside last year that the Government were taking too much money out of the national pool and starving the private sector for finance. However, in view of the increasing difficulties experienced in acquisition, if we achieve 20,000 acres of planting this year—as I have pointed out, we have the money to acquire and develop double that amount—despite the difficulties, we shall be doing a fairly good job.

I am sorry to have had to make that cut-back because it was since I came to this position that we achieved a planting rate of 25,000 acres per year and succeded in reaching that target steadily over a number of years. I particularly regret that the cut-back may affect employment. It does not as yet affect employment to the extent alleged here. Some figures were quoted on different sides of the House regarding lay-offs that were effected but it is not all due to this cut-back or financial stringency but simply to the fact that the men could not be further utilised and there was not land in their particular area in some cases.

Have up to 1,000 men been laid off for one reason or another in the Forestry Division?

The latest figure which I got this morning was roughly 500 men fewer than this time last year. This, as the Deputy knows, is the time for lay-offs and every year a certain number go.

That figure is up to when?

I got that figure this morning and it is a comparison, they say, with last year.

But it can run up to 1,000 before it is finished?

I would not think so.

The figure a month ago was 500 and a number have been laid off since then.

I should hope it will not go to 1,000. I do not want to minimise this. I hate any man being laid off if we can possibly avoid it. The Deputy is very familiar with forestry workers and knows that in certain areas, when work runs out, nothing can be done there. All of the figure I have given is not due to a cut-back. The Deputy also appreciates that due to improving methods and so on, the labour force is not as big for the same amount of work—to put it that way —as it was some years ago.

I do not want to interrupt the Minister, but it is true that this question of forests running out would arise every year.

I am afraid there are very nearly 1,000 men in the overall who will be out of jobs when it is finished. That is serious.

The figure I have been given is 500. All I can say to the Deputy and to the House is that, in so far as I have got the information, that will be about it.

I hope you are right.

That is what we hope.

Does the Minister see any early prospect of re-employment?

The Deputy will appreciate that I could not give an answer to that right off the reel. I cannot say now. A great deal depends on how matters progress and on the intake of land we achieve during this coming year. At all events, there is this to be said, that the amount being provided, even with that cut-back, to deal with 20,000 acres this year, if we succeed in getting them, is £3,397,000. There is a very substantial difference between that figure and the 1955-56 figure of £1,691,000 and a planted area of 14,000 acres.

As I say, I regret that I have to curtail my target of 25,000 acres in any year. I believe that this year will be profitably utilised by my officials on the forestry side for other purposes: to take a further look at a number of things that have arisen in forestry management; to take a further look at surveys that have to be made in connection with the older forests; to make further prognostications as to what the output of pulp and so on will be, surveys that have not yet been made and are long overdue. If there is a rest period of even 5,000 acres in this year, the money, and plenty of money, let me emphasise, more than ever before, is available there on the intake side of the machine.

I have time and again over the past few years been pointing out to the House that the reserve on the forestry side was very dangerously low, that we should have far more plantable land in reserve, both for the continuity and proper utilisation of our labour force, together with planning ahead. That is not so. It has come very dangerously low and if the energies of my officials on the forestry side can be concentrated on the intake of land in this year for the Forestry Division they will be doing a very good job and will be providing good prospects for the future of employment in rural Ireland.

Would you, Sir, allow me to ask the Minister a question?

Has the Minister any views on the suggestion I made yesterday evening, that something should be done to set up a tribunal to look after differences which have occurred over employment conditions in the Forestry Divison and Land Commission?

I heard the Deputy's suggestion. The Deputy will appreciate that I have had very little time to examine it between then and now. I assure the Deputy I will examine it.

Vote put and agreed to.
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