Vol. 223 No. 3
asked the Minister for Social Welfare if he is aware that his Department, following increases in payments of British pensions to certain persons living in Ireland, reduced and in many cases ceased payment of widows' and other pensions to such persons; and if he will state the estimated amount which will be saved by the Irish Government as a result of the increase in British pensions and the cesser of payments by the Irish Government to such pensioners.
14.
asked the Minister for Social Welfare whether he is aware of the grave discontent caused among the non-contributory groups of pensioners, who recently received an increase in their British pensions, by the fact that the Irish pensions were reduced, that the pension books were called in, and that in many cases they are still held in his Department; and if he will take steps to remedy the position.
15.
asked the Minister for Social Welfare if he will discontinue forthwith the practice of reducing Irish pensions by the amount of increases given by the British Ministry of Pensions in Achill, County Mayo and other areas similarly affected.
16.
asked the Minister for Social Welfare if he is aware that old age pensioners who are in receipt of British pensions are now having their Irish pensions reduced or disallowed as the result of the recent agreement with Britain; and, if so, if he will take steps to have the Irish pensions restored to their original amounts.
I propose, a Cheann Comhairle, with your permission to answer Questions Nos. 13 to 16 together.
The items which constitute means for purposes of non-contributory pensions are set out in the relevant legislation and I have no power to add to or take from that list. All income in cash, with certain specified exclusions, is assessable as means and British pensions come within that category. They have always been assessable.
Consequently, adjustment, and, in some cases, cessation of pension has been necessary following the granting of increases in British pensions as a result of the recent reciprocal arrangements but no pensioner will receive less by way of pension or combined pensions than he had previously. Where pension is still payable but at a different rate new books have been issued without delay.
It is estimated that the recent increases in British pensions to persons living in Ireland may reduce by about £268,000 the yearly expenditure on non-contributory old age and widows' pensions.
Does the Minister not think it grossly unfair that a person who received an increase in pension from Britain, due to the negotiations which the Minister himself conducted, should have such a reduction in the Irish pension that in the aggregate he would have less?
That does not normally happen, but the non-contributory pensions are given on the basis of a means test, and British pensions are means.
Is the Minister not enabled by the legislative provisions available to him to exclude specifically British pensions for migratory labourers?
No. The items that constitute means are specified in the legislation.
What are the specific exclusions?
Would the Minister not consider bringing in amending legislation to put the matter right?
The matter is right.
The Minister says he is tied by legislation. Would he not bring in amending legislation so that, if there is an increase in British pensions, pensioners are not excluded from having an Irish pension?
British pensions are means. I do not think there is any need to amend the legislation.
I gave the Minister's Department a case the other day where, because the British pension was increased, the person suffered a reduction of 20/- per week.
I do not think that could happen.
It has happened.
It must be due to the Department not having full information beforehand.
I have given it to them now. Would the Minister repeat the figure for savings due to the increase in British pensions?
£268,000 is the estimated saving.
Per annum?
Yes.
Therefore, the British give an increase and the Minister makes a quarter of a million pounds on it.
I do not. It is available for the Department of Social Welfare. It was taken into account.
Do I understand that a quarter of a million pounds and upwards is being taken from the most defenceless members of the community?
No; the pensions are being allocated in accordance with need, as they always were.
Is it not ludicrous that, after all the negotiations the Minister had with his counter part in England and that, having got an increase for Irish pensioners from the British Government, the Department of Social Welfare make over a quarter of a million pounds on it and keep that from the pensioners?
The Department of Social Welfare did not make on it. That money is available for distribution to people who are in greater need.
Go away.
It was always understood that when these people would get an increase in their British pension, it would reduce their entitlement to a non-contributory pension. Far from its going back to the Exchequer, there was an additional amount allocated from the Exchequer for this purpose this year.
Who got it?
It is given to the people who are most in need.
What additional money was given to those in greater need?
There is a Bill before the House at the moment. If the Deputy will cast his mind back to the Budget, he will remember that an additional five shillings was given.
There is another one coming today.
There was an increase of five shillings in the personal allowance and five shillings in the adult dependant allowance.
Nothing out of the £268,000.
The £268,000 is already allocated.
Last year it came out of borrowed money.
(Cavan): Would the Minister consider, out of this £268,000 which he is saving, doing something for the social welfare classes whose position has been worsened as a result of the increase in the cost of living since the Budget introduced in March last?
That does not arise.
This money has already been distributed. The Estimate for my Department has gone up.
The Minister must think all the pensioners are from the ascendancy.
Deputies can see the difference in the records and in the manner in which previous Governments treated social assistance recipients compared with this Government.
