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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 23 Jun 1966

Vol. 223 No. 8

Committee on Finance. - Resolution No. 3: Tax in Respect of Certain Goods (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:
That—
(a) with effect as on and from the 1st day of October, 1966, a tax, to be paid by such persons and in such circumstances as may be specified in the Act giving effect to this Resolution, shall, subject to the provisions of that Act, be charged at the rate of five per cent in respect of goods sold within the State and goods imported into the State;
(b) the said tax shall not apply in respect of food, drink, tobacco, medicines, clothing, fuel or hydrocarbon oils, or such other goods as may be excluded by or under the Act giving effect to this Resolution.
—(Minister for Finance.)

Before reporting progress last night, I was dealing with what could be described as a transition period and discussing the disadvantages the Taoiseach has as against the advantages the former leader of the Fianna Fáil Party had. I pointed out that one of the ways the Taoiseach had of overcoming these disadvantages was by increasing taxation in the belief that the Government who spent most remained popular longest and that, thereby, he could establish himself safely in the saddle as Taoiseach.

The present financial position of the country cannot be ignored. It is completely unfair for Deputies in Government benches to take exception to references by Opposition Deputies to this position, when these Deputies continually in defence of the Government refer to the financial circumstances prevailing in the 1956-57 period. I was not a Member of this House at that time but I was a businessman, and I have made it my business to assess the financial situation which then existed in order that I might arrive at some rational conclusion as to the cause of that situation.

There were many reasons for the financial circumstances which confronted the inter-Party Government in 1956-57. The inter-Party Government were not in complete control of some of the circumstances then obtaining and, therefore, were not in a position to resolve the difficulties arising from them. That cannot be said of the present situation. In respect of most of the ills which have caused the credit squeeze now obtaining and the apparent bankruptcy of the Government, the Government themselves are the architects of their own downfall.

I strengthen my argument by saying that in 1956-57 the inter-Party Government built houses, spent money on social services, invested money in agriculture, laid the foundations for the industrialisation of the nation, spurred the people out of the stagnation that affected them after a period during which Fianna Fáil controlled public opinion. They were, as it were, prepared to tolerate that particular situation and live with it. These are some of the domestic matters which one could say caused industrial unrest and economic difficulties in the 1956-57 period. As I said, I was not a Member of this House in 1956-57 but we all have recourse to Dáil debates. We can read the speeches made by Government Ministers. We can read the speeches made by members of the Government who were then in Opposition and we can draw our own conclusions.

While I was not a Member of this House, I feel a certain amount of pride in the fact that the Fine Gael Party as a member of the inter-Party Government found themselves in difficulties because they built more houses, because they spent more money on afforestation, because they spent money on major drainage, because they ploughed money into agriculture and because they tried to get this country on its feet. Admittedly, international crises interrupted the programme of that Government, but we cannot ignore, when reading Dáil debates of that period, those Members who now claim that it is a foul to criticise the present Government, that we should not rock the boat when they themselves caused havoc then.

In fact, the Taoiseach's speech of last week was tantamount to saying to us: "Don't hit me now with the child in my arms". He reminded us there was a fight on. Might I remind the Taoiseach that if there is a fight on in this House, it should not be between the Government Party and the main Opposition Parties? The fight should be against social injustices. What the Taoiseach should concern himself with is the fight to rid this nation of poverty, the fight to provide more houses, the fight to provide more employment. We shall not hold the Taoiseach to his promise of 100,000 new jobs. If he does his best and if he can, in fact, keep employment at the level now existing for the next two or three years, I personally will be satisfied.

I do not think the Government are telling the truth. I believe the Government at the moment are in dire straits, that the attitude of the Taoiseach from reading his speech and the speeches of all Government Deputies and Minister, and referring particularly to the very rude interruptions of some of the back bench Deputies now and again, lead us to believe that the Government are bluffing, blundering——

They are no ruder than any of us.

——and bullying. This is nothing new to a Fianna Fáil Party —to bluff, bully and blunder. The financial position of the country at the moment is, in my opinion, due to inflation as has been mentioned by many speakers over the past 12 months or so, and indeed particularly by Deputy Dillon two or three years ago, when he warned the Taoiseach then of the pending financial and political developments in countries like Great Britain and the United States. When the Taoiseach was riding his high horse in this Parliament immediately after the 12 per cent increase and the status increases to higher civil servants, when he was leading his merry band of men and being admired in public houses and at street corners as being the wonder worker, Members on this side of the House warned him that circumstances in America and in Great Britain were somewhat different from those prevailing in this country, both politically and economically.

At that time the British Government —the Conservative Party, rather— were trying to win back the confidence of the British people and were throwing money into the British economy in the hope that they would make their Party more popular and President Johnson in the United States was also expecting, and knew that he would have to fight, a Presidential election. Apart from these two matters, the economies of both of these countries could afford to do a bit of gambling. I doubt that this Government, and indeed this country, could afford to be careless for one week, but during that period it was evident, when people looking at the economic structure of both Great Britain and America were inclined to believe and accept that a boom period existed in these two great countries and it has always been the case that when such a boom period did exist, we had pretty good times and that when either of those countries got a cold, we got pneumonia.

I remember Deputy Dillon warning the Taoiseach that the circumstances prevailing in those two countries should not be used as an argument for proving prosperity in this country and that as soon as the Presidential election in America was over and as soon as the Conservative Party who were then doomed to defeat became the Opposition in Westminster, the economic brake would be put on in these two countries, and that we were heading for depression.

I remember Deputies on the opposite side of the House accusing Deputy Dillon, as indeed they still do, of being a pessimist, of being a prophet of doom but Deputy Dillon could foresee the future. He was speaking three years ago in this House and he described three years ago what would happen, and what, in fact, has happened. But, because it was unpopular for Deputy Dillon to say so and because the Taoiseach realised that there could be something in Deputy Dillon's argument, he elected to go to the country a few months earlier than he might have gone because he knew if he delayed too long, he might be too late.

My whole argument is this: if the present Administration proposes to do anything, if by collective responsibility they decide on a particular course, it is done more for political purposes than in the national interest. Most of the major decisions taken by the Government since I became a Member of the House five years ago were taken because it was politically wise, irrespective of whether or not it was in the national interest.

Today the Government find themselves hawking their credit through Western Europe, Great Britain and the North American continent. They remind me of a person going to the local bank manager when times are hard and convincing him that because of certain circumstances, he is financially embarrassed. The bank manager falling for the story increases his overdraft by another £100 or £200.

(Dublin): There are very few of that type of bank manager. They know their business.

A good many bank managers might think like that 12 months ago but even if they thought that way now, they would not have the money because the Government have raided their banks also.

You cannot get into a bank now.

(Dublin): The Bank of Nova Scotia did not think so.

I hope the Fianna Fáil Deputy from Dublin, if he has not already spoken, will make a better case for the Government than previous speakers have made. The Government remind me of a hard-pressed man in a small town who persuades his bank manager that he needs a higher overdraft and the bank manager increases it by £100. The man comes out and demonstrates to his neighbours that prosperity is again with him and spends his overdraft. Then he goes back to the bank manager or goes to another bank——

(Dublin): They would not be long in business if they worked in that way.

Just as long as the Government will be in business if they continue on their present course because that is exactly what the Government are doing, living from day to day on increased overdraft accommodation. This person goes to another bank manager and again succeeds and proceeds to demonstrate that his household is in order and prosperity is there again. "Let Lemass Lead On". That is the fundamental policy of the Government: live happily and let tomorrow take care of itself. They have short-term economic policies.

On 31st March we had a national debt of £714 million and, according to a reply by the Minister for Finance to a Parliamentary Question yesterday, it has increased by another £7.7 million inside ten weeks, since the previous Budget. Deputy Fitzpatrick may say that bank managers do not lend money to customers such as I described. Neither do good banking companies lend money to Governments whose book-keeping is not as good as they would have us believe.

About nine months ago the Minister for Finance left the country in mysterious circumstances and the next thing we heard was that he was in New York. He arrived back to tell us that he had negotiated a $20 million loan, approximately £7 million. They proceeded to spend that money before they got it. At that time the Agricultural Credit Corporation found itself in a very difficult situation, having pledged millions of pounds to farmers who had applied for loans for short or lengthy periods. Their files were full of applications by farmers for amounts ranging from £100 to £20,000, all sanctioned but with no money to pay them. The Government told the Agricultural Credit Corporation to go ahead and lend this money, that they had negotiated a £7 million loan on the New York Stock Exchange. But something went wrong. According to the Minister for Finance when he was queried by Deputy Sweetman last week, they were told that unless they put their books, as it were, in order, things could become slippy. Things did become slippy, with the result that the loan was not forthcoming. I am told that pandemonium existed in Government circles, one Minister blaming the other for the faults then existing.

The Minister for Finance took himself off to West Germany and there negotiated a loan of £5 million. In the meantime, of course, he had raided practically every semi-Government fund in the country. They had slowed up payments to local authorities and——

It is very early to start interrupting but the Deputy's speech is full of inaccuracies and misrepresentations. I do not wish to say anything more than that.

The Minister is entitled to say that. This is purely a matter of opinion. I hold my opinion is correct. He is entitled to say that he is correct.

I thought the Deputy was stating facts.

Perhaps that again is a matter of opinion.

This is Thursday.

It is, yes, 11 o'clock.

That is not a matter of opinion.

Sometimes we wonder. We find that the Government, having raided every fund in the country where there was money, having delayed payments to local authorities, have now landed in Canada and negotiated another loan of £5 million from what Deputy L'Estrange described as the Eskimos in Nova Scotia. Maybe there is some significance in this, in that, if the Minister for Local Government does not build his houses, he might provide us with igloos. At least, some of the people in the city of Dublin and in my constituency would be better living in an igloo than in some of the houses they must live in at the moment.

The weather is cold enough, anyway, to keep them up.

And wet enough to keep them up.

Last Thursday, we had the Minister for Transport and Power making pronouncements in this House. He spoke on practically every subject except CIE and the ESB. When the Minister for Transport and Power is asked a question in the House, he usually says he has no function in relation to CIE or to the ESB. Reading his speeches would convince one that not alone has he no function but that he has not a clue as to what is happening in the ESB or in CIE. However, he went ahead to describe the Government of which he is a member as being the most imaginative and inventive Government this country has ever had. The Taoiseach says that it is the best and most stable body in the world, a great body of men. That is how these two gentlemen describe the Government Ministers.

I could imagine the Taoiseach sitting down to a discussion with his Cabinet Ministers and believing that all the Ministers are of the quality he thinks they are, that they are the best Government in Europe, that they are, as it were, the Real Madrid of Western Europe with the Taoiseach playing the supreme role of Di Stefano. Real Madrid was, in my opinion, one of the greatest football teams Western Europe got to know but they are at the bottom of the ladder now. Even if we were to accept the Taoiseach's claim that his Government were the Real Madrid in political circles of Western Europe I think, like Real Madrid, they have now hit a very low level and it is time the Taoiseach was making room for new men.

This Government have taken many chances. It is a gambler's Government. I suppose it could be described as an adventurer's Government. I expect that the life of an adventurer is an exciting one. I expect that many people, when talking about the present Taoiseach, speak with a certain amount of excitement of some of the adventures he embarked upon. I am left with the thought that an adventurer's life is a gambler's life. Political punters would admire a gambler but the only people who are happy, in the final analysis, are the political bookmakers, the Dr. Singers, the Potez people and a list of other broken-down gentlemen who came to this country talking fast talk to a Government more concerned about mushroom industries than the first and best industry the country has got, namely, agriculture. I am convinced, as are a lot of other people, that, if the amount of money spent on these mushroom industries had been ploughed into agriculture, not now but many years ago, this country would have one of the soundest economies in Western Europe.

This second Budget is only to pay for the debt that the Government have created. There is very little money in the Budget to provide better services for our people. As far as I know, there is no money in the Budget that will speed up the provision of housing, particularly in my constituency of North-East Donegal, which, I might add, also sends the Minister for Local Government to this House, the man who is directly responsible for providing the money for new houses.

Donegal County Council propose to build 18 new houses during this current year. After they pay their debt for last year, they have approximately £36,000 left to build houses. That £36,000, no matter how it is spent, will provide no more than 18 county council cottages. Every Deputy is aware that £2,000 does not provide a mansion of a dwelling nowadays. It is a very humble home but, humble as it may be, many people would be glad to use it.

There are many rumours in circulation in Donegal. We had great excitement there in the past week or so. Many rumours are circulating the hills and dales there as to why Deputy Cunningham resigned as Chairman of the county council. I am sorry he is not in the House.

It is not relevant.

Was it not because the county manager would not put into operation the £2 5s increase which you passed unanimously at Donegal County Council?

That is probably one of the reasons, but I did not hear that rumour. I did not hear any rumour until Deputy Cunningham inquired from me——

I think matters pertaining to Donegal, peculiarly, ought to be left for discussion on another occasion.

I was pointing out to the House that in this Budget, no money is provided for extra housing. I was coming to the point that Deputy Cunningham, according to himself, feels that many people believe he resigned as chairman of the Donegal County Council because the county manager and his staff were not providing sufficient houses. I was mentioning this just in passing. Deputy Cunningham like many other Government Deputies, thinks that county managers should work the miracle of the loaves and fishes in providing more houses than they have money to build. The Deputy is also aware that not one house is being provided this year on the Inishowen Peninsula, an area in which there are 32,000 people. The local authority are not providing one house other than what will be provided by private builders. People who normally would be the responsibility of the local authority to rehouse, are, because of frustration and the need to be re-housed, mortgaging everything they possess and persuading relatives to go bail for them, and they are making a genuine effort to provide houses for themselves and their families. In other words, they are assuming the responsibility which is actually the responsibility of the local authority.

That would be all right if the local authority could provide finance by way of loan from the Small Dwellings (Acquisition) Acts but we find that the Donegal County Council have only £8,000 to lend potential builders of private houses this year. The sum of £60,000 has been pledged—it has not yet been paid—to the Donegal County Council and of this £52,000 has been pledged by the county manager to applicants up to 31st March of this year, leaving the local authority with £8,000 to lend to people who have applied since 31st March. Unofficially I am told that almost £20,000 has been applied for since 31st March.

What efforts are the Government making to help people who have the courage to assume the responsibility which the local authority refuses to accept? The Government have not provided one service to help people over this difficulty but they are very willing to hand out money to the Potez people, to the Dr. Singers and to every brokendown—there are many words we could use to describe these gentlemen but we will just call them gentlemen.

Entrepreneurs.

That would be a nice word to use. I believe this Government have lost all sense of responsibility, have forgotten all the principles of social justice. I am left with the thought that the Government have been so long in power that they now treat their responsibility and the electorate with the utmost contempt. They believe they can kick the people around and still be returned to this House. Gone are the days when it was said in rural Ireland that if Fianna Fáil burnt down their cottages, they would creep out of the ashes and shout "Up Dev". Going, and going fast, are the days when people voted for a political Party because their fathers and grandfathers voted for it. That is a good thing. Even if it meant the dissolution of the Fine Gael Party, even if it meant the disappearance of the Fine Gael Party because of this evolution in political thought, I believe it is right that people should I think for themselves. The results of the Presidential election showed clearly that the Government had lost the confidence of their people. This is bad but it is really worse than it appears because if a Government have not the confidence of their people, then they cannot expect to have the confidence of foreigners and cannot expect to have the respect of people who would like to invest money in this country. Unless there is confidence in a Government, there will be no confidence in the economy or in the economic policies of a country.

This to me is the worst factor of this economic situation. Irrespective of what the Taoiseach may say about going it alone, irrespective of the rosy pictures he paints, the naked truth is that we must depend on foreign investment and on other countries to protect our economy. If we cannot get the confidence of foreign countries in our economy, then a very gloomy situation must result. As Deputy Dillon said last week, inflation, when it is first noticed, appeals to the imagination of everyone. When a worker receives an increase in his pay packet, he is not too concerned about where that increase came from. He is happy that he has received it and he is going to spend it. The salary earner is a bit more informed and understands the financial situation somewhat better, but he is caught in the same dilemma and is more concerned about receiving the increase than where it came from. During that period of inflation, everything in the garden is rosy but when the moment of truth arrives, when we are all called to heel, then the lowerpaid worker, the person on the bottom rung, feels the full brunt of the economic trouble.

Deputy Dillon went on to explain that one of the things that might help the Taoiseach in the particular situation in which he finds himself would be if Harold Wilson devalued the £. I believe that to be the naked truth. Those in well informed circles, the rich who make it their business to understand finance, protect themselves against the results of devaluation but the person on the bottom rung of the ladder does not know what is happening until it has happened and he is then in no position to protect himself.

Hear, hear.

The situation is described by a statement we used in recent elections: in a period of inflation, the rich get richer while the poor get poorer.

Hear, hear.

That has been the result of the Taoiseach's policy since he took office in 1959. If any Government Deputy can put forward an argument to defend that policy, I shall listen very attentively to it, but I am convinced that the reason the Taoiseach embarked on this economic policy is that he lacks the imagination of his former leader and fails to project himself to the Irish people in the way his former leader did. The Taoiseach does not have the same appeal, that appeal which induced the Irish people to vote for his former leader irrespective of what he did. That was amply demonstrated in the recent Presidential election.

I believe it was this lack on the part of the Taoiseach which compelled him to embark on this policy of steadily increasing taxation, believing that, if the Government spent more, they would be popular. That policy may be all right in a country with increasing production and increasing exports, but one cannot increase taxation on a nation which is fast disappearing. No sooner is taxation increased than more people are out of employment and more people leave the country. The boats carry the thousands of our people to Britain and America and that, in turn, means a loss to our economy. The argument has been put forward by Government speakers that taxation is increasing in other countries. But so are the populations of these countries. That cannot be said of our country. Irrespective of what constituency a Deputy represents or to which Party he belongs, he could not make this claim.

The Minister described the taxation imposed in this Budget as a selective tax. I should like to know what articles will carry this extra five per cent.

Hear, hear.

We have not yet been told, though that question has been posed by different speakers on this side of the House to the few Ministers who have so far spoken in this debate. That question has been asked by senior members of this Party and of the Labour Party. So far, it has remained unanswered. Perhaps the Minister would, when he is replying, tell us what the articles will be. Perhaps he might tell his backbenchers or some of his colleagues in the Cabinet specifically what will be taxed under this five per cent selective tax, as he calls it.

He has also stated that this five per cent will operate at wholesale level. By the time the commodity reaches the hands of the consumer, it will be carrying a tax of 7½ per cent. When the turnover tax was introduced, this side of the House argued that that tax should apply at source and not at retail level. Apparently now the Minister has accepted that that argument was right. He will, of course, now have it both ways. He is, as it were, riding two horses at the one time. He has the five per cent selective tax at source and the 2½ per cent turnover tax at retail level. I should like the Minister to deal in particular with that when he comes to reply because most Deputies cannot understand it and, if Deputies, who are in an informed position, cannot understand it, what hope of understanding it have the ordinary people? There is confusion as to what is being taxed.

With all the boasting of the present Administration, when the Taoiseach attends functions outside this House and when the Ministers of his Cabinet attend similar functions, they mostly use the occasion to state Government policy and to further their Party's interests with more propaganda. The acid test of prosperity is not the rosy speeches made by Government Ministers or by the Taoiseach; the acid test of prosperity is the population of the country. If the population of the country dwindles, as it has since the Taoiseach took office seven years ago, it is not a good sign. Since he replaced the former Leader, one-third of a million people, 330,000, have emigrated from this small State. These are the figures presented by the Taoiseach's office.

If we had prosperity, those 330,000 people would not have emigrated. They did not emigrate for the sake of emigration. They did not elect to live in the cities of Great Britain or the United States in order to see the bright lights and to experience a new way of living. They emigrated because it was necessary for them to emigrate in order to provide a better standard of living for themselves. To me, the reason they have emigrated spotlights the standard of prosperity here. I am satisfied that the arguments I put forward to the House are shared by many members in the Government benches.

I am satisfied that, when Deputy Smith was Minister for Agriculture in 1964, and in dramatic and exciting circumstances resigned his post as Minister for Agriculture, he did not resign as Minister for Agriculture in the Fianna Fáil Cabinet to hit the headlines or for the fun of it. Despite the disagreements we may have had with Deputy Smith in his agricultural policies, we must ask ourselves, with a certain amount of suspicion, did Deputy Smith foresee in 1964 the circumstances now prevailing in the country? I do not think it unfair of us on this side of the House to answer that question by saying that Deputy Smith did see those circumstances. A Deputy who is Minister of State, having served the nation and this House for so long, is in contact with public opinion. He is alive to and aware of the circumstances prevailing in the country, and he is intelligent enough to read the political and economic indicators that present themselves. We are left—and personally I am left—with the conclusion that Deputy Smith resigned because he knew the captain of the ship of State was heading for the rocks. Very soon, if he does not resign from the Government, he will be a captain without a vessel.

Likewise when the former Tánaiste, Deputy MacEntee, indicated that he wished no longer to serve as a Minister in the Lemass administration, was he beginning to have his doubts about the economic policies of the Government? Did he resign because he wanted to hit the headlines? Did he resign because of petty misunderstandings with colleagues in the Government? Or did he resign because he was sick of the whole affair and was now past the point of no return.

Again, I do not think it unfair of us on this side of the House to answer that question by saying that Deputy MacEntee was convinced that the Taoiseach's economic policies were wrong. Deputy MacEntee more or less proved to us that that is the way he was thinking, because we remember that less than three months ago, when the Minister for Finance introduced the first Budget of this year into the House, Deputy MacEntee wrote a letter to the Irish Times in which he proceeded to tell the Minister for Finance what went wrong with that first Budget of 1966. If Deputy MacEntee had the audacity to take one of his former colleagues in the Cabinet to task in a public fashion, as he did, he must have had the same arguments within Cabinet circles when he was Tánaiste and a senior member of the Government.

It is not wishful thinking on our part to think in this direction. This is pure commonsense. Deputy MacEntee, remember, was Tánaiste and if the Taoiseach, for some reason or another, resigned or found it impossible to continue as Taoiseach, Deputy MacEntee would have been Taoiseach. Then what would have been the position? Would Deputy MacEntee have sacked all the soothsayers he talked about in his letter to the Irish Times? Would he have sacked all the Government Ministers, or would he have refused to lead the country? Again, would there have been economic revolution in the country and political revolution within the Fianna Fáil Administration? These are questions that, perhaps, will never be answered, but I emphasise that I do not think it unfair of any speaker on this side of the House to pose such questions and to come to the same conclusions to which I have come.

Not alone did Deputy MacEntee resign, but the former Minister for Finance, who held the most important office in the Government, the former Deputy Ryan, who is now a member of Seanad Éireann, indicated to the Taoiseach that he wished no longer to serve as Minister for Finance, or indeed as a member of this House. Again, was it because the former Minister for Finance wished to hit the headlines? Was it because he had doubts about who was right—the Taoiseach or Deputy Smith, 18 months prior to that time? In any case Deputy Ryan refused to serve further in administration. The same arguments can be put forward by Members speaking from Opposition benches as to why Deputy Ryan refused to serve any longer. This may not have the same pronounced effect or be exactly the same reason why Deputy Smith resigned and why Deputy MacEntee refused to continue as Tánaiste, because, as it were, the former Minister for Finance was at the helm with "Lemass leading on" and he had to share more responsibility than the other two former Ministers.

We are left with this: when the Taoiseach, prior to the last general election stated publicly that the 1965 general election would be the last in which he would lead his Party, did he foresee the circumstances now prevailing in the country? Was he now in despair, having listened to the arguments of the different Ministers who resigned, torn asunder between those Ministers and certain other Ministers whose integrity may not be as high as that of the Ministers who had the courage of their convictions, late as it may have been, and who resigned? Prior to the 1965 general election, was he of such a state of mind that he questioned the loyalty of his own back bench when he could not command the lovalty of his own Cabinet Ministers? These are all very pertinent questions, quite separate but very much relevant to the present financial circumstances in the country because, if the Taoiseach cannot command the respect and loyalty of his own Cabinet if he cannot command the loyalty of his own back bench, he should not expect any loyalty from the people who are not members of his Party but who have voted for him in recent general elections and by-elections because of certain promises made by him.

The high taxation in this country is spotlighted and brought very forcibly to mind, particularly to the minds of Deputies representing constituencies in this House which border on the six north-eastern counties of Ireland. Petrol in the Six Counties is from 10d to 1/-a gallon cheaper than it is in the Twenty-Six Counties, the Republic of Ireland. This, in effect, means that any person motoring an average of 600 miles per week—which is approximately the average motoring of any commercial traveller or, indeed, of any person who does any standard of motoring whatsoever—will pay £1 per week more for his petrol, in taxation, in this country than he would if he lived and bought his petrol in the Six Counties. The Government have increased motor taxation by 25 per cent in the first Budget of this year. The road taxation on a motor vehicle in the Six Counties is £17 per annum. The road tax at the moment on a 12 horse power car here is £31 per annum, and the average car being driven on the roads is a 12 horse power car. How can the Minister for Finance, the Taoiseach, the Minister for Industry and Commerce or any other Minister in Government, have the audacity to visit the city of Belfast, sit down and discuss trade agreements with their opposite numbers in Stormont and expect the workers in this country to compete with the workers in the Six Counties if they are to pay such penal taxes?

In conclusion, might I say very little money is provided in these two recent Budgets for expansion? Practically no money has been provided for new housing and little or no money has been provided for the social welfare classes. Indeed all sorts of false economies are being aimed at, and particularly, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle, with your permission, I should like to refer to one particular complaint in my constituency—which I suppose you are more alive to and aware of than I am —in relation to the Department of Education. Last night, on the Adjournment, Deputy McAuliffe spoke of similar happenings in Cork——

If the Deputy is going to discuss the question of closing schools, it would not relevantly arise on a Financial Motion. The question of administration would relevantly arise on the Estimate but I cannot allow any discussion on the closing of schools or education policy on these lines on a Financial Motion.

I do not wish to dispute your ruling. I merely wish to say I did not intend to discuss the closing of schools.

The Deputy referred to the closing of schools.

I did not; I did not mention the closing of schools.

The Deputy referred to Deputy McAuliffe on the Adjournment last night.

That was a matter of a school strike and not the closing of a school to which I was going to refer. I claim it is within the rules of the House to discuss this in a debate such as is in progress at the moment: that because the Government are mis-spending money, they have not provided more money in the Budget for education. Recent statements by the Minister for Education, particularly in relation to amalgamation of schools, are being used as an excuse by the Government when claims are put forward by parents of schoolgoing children in respect of the conditions of schools which have been described as pigsty conditions.

This is not relevant to Financial Resolution No. 3.

I claim——

The Deputy may claim, but the Chair is telling the Deputy that it is not relevant and does not arise on the Financial Resolution before the House. This is a question of administration and would relevantly arise on the Estimate for Education.

I submit to your ruling, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle, and I fully agree that it is more relevant to the Department of Education, but I also claim that a certain amount of latitude should be allowed to me on this very important matter, in view of the fact that Fianna Fáil Deputies have spoken about Siberia and the conditions prevailing in Indo-China. All I want to talk about is the people in my own constituency of North-East Donegal, people who pay taxes to this State, people who pay rates to the local authority, decent, honest-to-goodness citizens who claim nothing more than their just right, who have had to tolerate school conditions such as in Ballyboes national school, described in today's Irish Independent as being pigsty conditions.

If the Deputy continues along these lines, I must ask him to resume his seat. It is not a matter for discussion on the Financial Resolution before the House.

It may not be, I agree——

If the Deputy agrees that it is not, then he should desist.

I do not see why you should select me as being the person who should stay rigidly within the rules of order and allow Deputies on the Government benches to refer to matters that do not concern this country.

The Deputy should not proceed on these lines.

If I do not get the opportunity of raising this matter, which will take only a few minutes, I propose, with the permission of the Chair, to raise it this evening on the Adjournment.

I have tried in my own way to present to the House a picture of what I see wrong in this country. It is the responsibility of every elected representative in this House to state bluntly and clearly the feelings he has within him, the way he sees the situation, particularly in his own constituency, and in the nation. I have tried to do that. If my argument is accepted as being correct, I am left in this position, that if I were the Taoiseach of a Government who had tried every trick of the trade, played every card in the pack, and arrived at the position in which the Taoiseach now finds himself, I would feel that the honest thing would be to resign. It may be the hardest thing for the Taoiseach to do now but history will be more severe on the Taoiseach for adhering to his idle gospels, his false policies, at the expense of the economy which is staggering under the burden of taxation, trying to keep its head above water while the Government are strangling it to death.

The honest thing for the Taoiseach in these circumstances is to do what Deputy John A. Costello did as Taoiseach of an inter-Party Government, when he found that he no longer had the confidence of the Irish people, let alone the confidence of some of the elected representatives of the House. The honourable thing, the honest thing and the decent thing for the Taoiseach to do is to resign and prove himself a man, late as it may be.

For me or for any other Deputy to state that the Irish people have been asked to undergo a great deal of hardship over the past 12 months would be a gross understatement. Over the past 12 months most sections of the Irish community have been called upon to bear hardships of a nature such as they could never have anticipated prior to the general election early in 1965. Indeed, the people were encouraged to believe that the absolute reverse would be the case. Added to all these hardships in which at least some sections of the community have been involved over the past 12 months, we had a first instalment of this year's Budget in March with its attendant heavy imposition of taxation. Now before the House there is the second instalment of that Budget, with taxation, as Deputy Harte has just recounted, of such a nature that even those of us who are Members of the House are not absolutely sure of the impact. The time has come when all the Irish people, by which I mean those who support the Government Party just as those who support our Party or the Fine Gael Party, or any other people, are beginning to ask themselves and each other and, in particular, their public representatives, at least three questions. The people I meet in mid-Cork are certainly asking me, among others, these three questions.

These three questions are: What has caused all this, this financial crisis through which the country is now travelling? Is there any sphere of our agricultural or social life which has not been affected by the shortage of finance?

When will it all end, when can we hope that funds will again be available for the particular project or projects we have in mind and for which we have waited so long?

With regard to the first question we readily admit that there are some considerations outside the control of the Government of the day which have been a cause of the financial crisis. There have been contributing factors, possibly, such as the British import levy over which the Government have no control, but we in the Labour Party and those in the other Opposition Party, I know from their speeches, believe that there are other fundamental causes which are well within the ambit of the Government's power to control. At the risk of repeating what many Deputies have said in the course of this debate, I must again go back to the imposition of the turnover tax in 1963. I was not a Member of this House at this time but I know that at that time the Labour Party fought here against the imposition of that tax. They warned the Government against the inadvisability, quite apart from the injustice, of that tax, applying as it does to all the necessaries of life. They were told at the time that its imposition would have very little effect on prices beyond the 2½ per cent which was imposed. In fact, we now know that the increase was from seven per cent to 11 per cent. Following that turnover tax, we had the ninth round of wage increases, the deserved ninth round. However badly timed, it was deserved early in the spring of 1964 and only a few nights ago, reading the speech of the Minister for Finance of that time, Deputy Ryan, on his Budget following the award of this ninth round of wage increases in 1964, I found in the Official Report of 14th April, 1964, at column 1537:

Some of the initial strain on costs should be taken on profits, in consideration of the future easement when productivity has advanced. And workers should be encouraged to increase their individual savings.

He went on to admonish the House and to state that if these steps were not taken, difficulties would arise which would require corrective action. We all know that step No. 1—restraint on profits—was not taken, nor was there any encouragement or insistence by the Government that this should be done. Prices were allowed to soar and price control, our predecessors were told, would not work until the situation had got out of hand and we now find the Government are in the position where they say to themselves: "It must work; it is essential." We know that workers instead of being encouraged to save have, in fact, found that any increased benefits they got from the ninth round have been absorbed in increased prices. They found the wage increases adequate to meet rising costs. Again, we have these two Budgets, or two instalments of the one Budget, timed again to absorb any benefits the Irish workers might get from what is now termed the tenth round of wage increases.

We suggest that in a short time they again will be back where they started. I would say it is unfair of the Government to place, as they have the tendency to do right now, all the blame for the state of the economy on the shoulders of that section of the workers who must organise and fight for their relatively small increase. I say "relatively small" because I want to compare them with those in the upper income bracket who, apparently at any rate, can secure increases from £400 to £500 and up to £1,000 with little effort to all intents and purposes. I am not saying there is no difficulty but there is never any open controversy about it. It would seem to the other sections of the community that these people get increases handed to them on a plate.

It might be argued that when large increases are given, these workers are few in number in comparison with the section who must organise and fight. It might also be argued that their work is of a nature where parity cannot be established between them and other workers, where a precedent might not be established. I contend this is not justice. Naturally, it breeds unrest among the less wealthy section of the community who are fighting constantly to make ends meet.

In his introductory speech on the second instalment of this Budget, the Minister for Finance talked a good deal about redistribution. He said— I have not got the exact quotation— that he was, in fact, concerned that the redistribution of the wealth that was there was among those sections of the community who needed it most. I come back to this question of large wage increases to those in the upper income brackets, to show that those people who already have large increases are getting increases more than equal to the weekly wage of other members of the community, and to compare them with people such as old age pensioners, and widows and orphans who are still expected to live on £2-£3 a week in some cases. Realising that that situation is still allowed to continue, I think we cannot take much notice of anything the Minister says about a redistribution of the nation's wealth.

Only a little while ago we had the Estimate for Lands and Forestry, to give just an example. There we found that workers employed on estates taken over by the Land Commission were given a settling-in allowance of £225, as against the settling-in allowances for other officers employed in other spheres of activity of something like £2,000 to £3,000. This is something I cannot understand. I realise that a worker on a holding taken over by the Land Commission might possibly find it difficult to settle in. He might be a man with a young family. He might not find it possible to settle in as easily as he did in his own sphere before that land was taken over. He is awarded something like £200 to settle himself and his family in life, while others who already had high pensions and allowances are allowed very large settling-in allowances. I am not disputing the fact that settling-in allowances are necessary but I think the disparity is far too great.

I come back to the second question I raised: is there any sphere of life which is not hit by this present crisis? Our answer must be there is not. Rising prices and taxation on petrol and tobacco and a selective purchase tax will certainly affect all our people. I was interested to hear Deputy Harte state that he was not sure what exactly will be taxed and what exactly will not be taxed under this new selective purchase tax. Nobody knows as yet, but we can take it at this stage that the prices of all household commodities and utensils will rise considerably on and from next October. We all have to live in houses and furnish them and replace utensils. Possibly I know better than even my male colleagues the proportion of the family Budget it takes to keep a house stocked, refurnished and equipped. Train fares, bus fares and even school fares have soared within the past couple of weeks.

Speaking of school fares, I have been very reliably informed that these fares have in many instances doubled since the recent increases by CIE. We had hoped that this would not apply to school fares but, in fact, we are told that the school fares are the most badly hit by these new increases and that where fares were equal to 1/4 per day, they are now increased to 2/8. We all know this is a very heavy imposition on the families and parents of those children who are attending school.

There is one other question which I should like to ask, a question which has been troubling me since I heard of this new purchase tax. Will it apply to school books? I have not seen school books quoted as being exempt from this tax. I hope they are not included because I do not think any Minister could argue that school books are not essential for any family with children.

Local authority housing has been badly hit in the past 12 months. In Cork County Council, we find ourselves £24,000 short of what we need to meet our present commitments. That means that many people living in very bad conditions—and there are many such—must be told that they have no hope of having anything done for them regarding housing this year. Because people could not anticipate this crisis we have a very serious situation for those building their own homes. In the case of our housing loans, back since last April or May in County Cork, people were allocated loans provisionally when money became available. Some of them went ahead and built their homes, hoping the money would be available at the beginning of this financial year. We find our allocation for the financial year is £590,000 and out of that, we are actually committed to a total of £585,000 which leaves at most £5,000 to cover all these people who built their homes on the strength of the provisional allocation by Cork County Council. The others will have to wait 12 months and have no guarantee that the money will be available then.

Roads cannot be brought up to standard. That might not seem very important but it means a great deal to people in rural areas who need access roads to their farms. Roads cannot be brought up to the standard required to have them taken over by the county council because for a long time no grants have been available under the Special Employment Schemes. This was one of the first things that came to notice. Special employment schemes were suspended because it was said the list of applications was so long but we know that the problem was financial. The money for county roads has been cut down and water and sewerage schemes are in practically the same position as housing. The money was allocated at a very late stage this year and is not sufficient to meet what the county council have already committed themselves to. We can assume that little or no work will be put in hands this year.

School buildings are not being replaced. Without going into details, there are many badly serviced and unfit school buildings throughout the country, many insanitary hovels. I think that with the priority list set up this year for the first time in the Department of Education, their hopes of replacement are very slim. Most of those in which I am interested have been told they have no hope this year. People have begun to despair. They ask: when will all this end? I wish, as I suppose every Deputy wishes, that we could tell them but we cannot. I sincerely hope that when the Minister is replying he will give some hope that they can look forward to better things in the very near future. If he cannot do that, cannot give a positive assurance to the Irish people that this situation will ease and that there is a brigher future for them, he and the Government should realise they no longer enjoy the mandate of the people to govern this country.

(Dublin): Listening to Deputy Desmond, I was impressed and I have no doubt she is sincerely concerned about her constituents. I did not intend to intervene, but listening to Deputy Harte led me to the conclusion that he completely lacks the business approach. For half an hour last night and again today for an hour, we heard him going back over the past seven years and at no time did he put forward a constructive suggestion. It is very easy to pick the bad points in the past seven years. It does not take much imagination or research to select the failings.

The Taoiseach has never denied that we are in a difficult situation. These phases arise occasionally in life and anybody with experience of running a business—and running the country is a business—knows that business never runs smoothly. The important thing is to know exactly what is wrong and how to rectify it. When we have a leader with that knowledge at the helm, there is no need for the panic preached by the Opposition for the past few days. None of them has put forward any constructive solution or alternative. I enjoy constructive arguments when people put forward alternatives to something we propose and I believe that if you criticise, you must be in a position to suggest alternatives. There is no point in criticising just for the sake of criticism. That will not help our economy in any way. If the Opposition have reasons for criticism, let them put forward alternative solutions. That is how an Opposition should work.

We are going through a difficult period but that is not the fault of the Government. The main reason for it lies in international factors and industrial unrest. This grave economic situation has undoubtedly developed but anybody observing the balance of payments position recently must be gratified to find the gap closed completely. We are getting out of the difficulties experienced in the past 12 months. We hope that industrial relations difficulties will be resolved in the near future, and after that I believe we shall go ahead again to attain the targets set out in the Second Programme for Economic Expansion.

Listening to some Opposition speakers, one would imagine that some firms in this city were going bankrupt but one has only to read the Stock Exchange reports or the financial reports in any paper to find these firms as buoyant and solvent as they were at any time in the past six or seven years. In view of that, how can the pessimism we have been subjected to in the past few days be justified? We have also heard a great deal of criticism of our foreign borrowing. It is said this is dangerous, that we are paying high interest and so on. The important thing about borrowing is to ensure that you invest the proceeds wisely.

There is nothing wrong with borrowing. Everyone in this country has to live on credit. But for credit, we could not keep our economies or businesses going. To be able to borrow means that the people who lend have confidence in you. Criticism of borrowing from the banks in Germany or Nova Scotia is unfounded. It is much better to borrow now, even at an increased rate, and to push ahead with capital development than to wait until ten or 12 years hence when production costs will have increased. I cannot see why any criticism should be levelled against the present method of borrowing.

Everybody in this country should concern himself with the task of resolving our labour troubles. It is about time we took a Christian outlook on labour relations. This is something that is lacking. Not alone is a Christian outlook desirable but it is necessary, if we are to emerge from the difficulties industry is experiencing today.

Deputy Harte, speaking here this morning, seemed to be under the impression that we were selling out this country, getting loans ad lib, and so on. He went to the extent of saying that we were going from bank to bank and selling the country's credit. We all know perfectly well that bank managers or financial advisers give money only when the client is solvent. There is no question of going from one country to another and selling the credit of this country.

The Americans did not give it to us.

They were wise.

(Dublin): You would not get any money from any bank in the world if you were not solvent. We got money from Germany and Nova Scotia. Our country is solvent and we are capable of going to any country in the world and getting a loan. This is a very important fact.

This pessimistic outlook being fostered by the Opposition Parties will do untold damage to our economy. If any businessman came into this House last week and listened to the debate, I am sure he would take the first plane out of the country. Pessimism is a dangerous philosophy to spread. It only incites the worker against the employer. This is true of the speeches from the Labour benches. Those Deputies indulged in propaganda so as to incite the worker and create trouble.

That is not true. The Government introduced legislation against workers. Talk about the price of stout. You know nothing about labour relations.

(Dublin): I deal with labour relations every week.

You do, indeed: you know nothing about it.

(Dublin): This type of propaganda is doing great damage to our country. We should endeavour to create a more Christian outlook in the matter. We should look at things in their proper perspective. We might then achieve a proper relationship and get our economy moving again.

I had to clean my glasses when Deputy Fitzpatrick got on his feet and look across to see if it was the same gentleman whose photograph I saw in The Licensed Vintner a week or two ago in a dinner jacket, painting the most gloomy picture facing the licensed trade in this country.

(Dublin): You did not look at the picture right.

I read what the Deputy said and if ever I read a more pessimistic speech than that made by Deputy Fitzpatrick, then I am a liar. He told his colleagues that the licensed trade was finished, that the last Budget was the last straw and that unfortunately they were all heading for bankruptcy. That is the gentleman who got up here a few moments ago and chastised us for talking about pessimism in this House. Of course, he was addressing a different audience then. He was then addressing an audience, all of whom the Budget hit in the pocket. We have all had a query in the past week from his association pointing out to us how severely hit the licensed trade has been as a result of this Budget and asking us whether, if we got into Government, we were prepared to do certain things——

(Dublin): You are getting your facts wrong.

——to support the points of view of their trade and, if so, Deputy Fitzpatrick and his colleagues in the trade will support us. I can assure them that I have nothing but sympathy for Deputy Fitzpatrick.

(Dublin): We never sent you a circular. Get your facts right.

I got one the other day.

Deputy O'Donnell must be allowed to speak without interruption.

I have nothing but sympathy for Deputy Fitzpatrick.

It was not RGDATA. It was a circular from an association asking us if we agreed that there were too many licensed premises in the country, that the hours of trading were too long and if we would take steps to assist in closing down redundant publichouses. I think that came from Deputy Fitzpatrick.

(Dublin): I beg to contradict you.

I will make way if the Deputy tells me from whom it came. I thought he was chairman of that association.

(Dublin): Deputy Donegan will inform you.

Deputy Fitzpatrick can come in here as a politician and as a supporter of the Government and accuse us of painting pessimistic pictures, but when he gets out among his colleagues and when, at the end of the week, he counts his profits he then points his finger in the right direction. He chastised my colleague from Donegal for accusing the Government of hawking their credit from bank to bank. He went on to say that the Government were thought so highly of that they could get loans wherever they sought them. What about our friends, the Americans, who examined our economy and then refused us a mere bagatelle of £8 million? Why have they refused us that money? Perhaps I am spending too much time on what Deputy Fitzpatrick had to say.

That loan was not floated.

A sum of £8 million was not available from America.

They were Euro-Dollars.

The Minister came back to Ireland after a sojourn in the United States and said that we were borrowing £8 million in the stock market.

It is a different market altogether.

We did not get them. However, we can borrow £5 million from the Bank of Nova Scotia. I am very suspicious of this Bank of Nova Scotia. Is this the bank that has been canvassing business in this country for the past six or eight months, writing to various organisations seeking the investment of funds from these various organisations in their bank? Is this the price they paid for their chance to come in here and compete against the commercial banks of this country? Have they paid this £5 million for that? I am personally aware that this particular bank have been seeking recognition from various organisations in this State and encouraging various organisations to invest moneys with them. Have they paid this £5 million for that privilege? It is something that should be looked into.

It is only last March that we had a Budget and never, in such a short time, in my opinion, has so much money been extracted from so many and distributed among so few as has been done by the Minister for Finance. Let us have a look at the situation. We had a Budget somewhere in the first week of March last. We had a mini-Budget last week for which there was no publicity whatsoever. All legal fees were increased by practically 100 per cent in some cases and 600 per cent in other cases. For instance, the stamp on a High Court summons which was £1 was increased to £6. Land Registry fees were increased; Land Commission fees were increased. All fees payable by the legal profession were increased, some by as much as 600 per cent. Bus fares were increased and we have had the price of butter and the price of beer and stout increased. Then we had the Canadian loan. We have this mini-Budget now but we have never been told the fees which were to be collected, and possibly will be collected, under the Fisheries Bill which was conveniently shelved during the Presidential election.

They will not collect them.

An effort will be made. In my part of the country, as in Deputy Tully's, we have a drift-net salmon licence which now costs £3 and it is proposed to increase it to £15. We have in rural Ireland what are referred to by the salmon rod fishermen as the peasants who fish for brown trout and they are to be taxed.

Refuse to pay.

I have come to the conclusion that what Deputy Coughlan says is correct. The only way to get justice in this country is to break the law and you know where that will lead you. We are to have another local budget because the rates were struck during March and under this mini-Budget, the cost of living has gone up. The cost of petrol has gone up and the cost of foodstuffs has gone up and the local authorities have not taken these increases into account. They will have to work on an overdraft between now and March when they will have to strike a rate to pay off the overdraft.

That is one of the faults I find with the Minister and the Government— their shortsightedness. I remember that as I came in to speak on the Budget in March, I bought a copy of the Evening Herald and I saw a banner headline which read “British Government to restrict flow of capital to many countries, including Ireland”. In my opening remarks that evening, I referred to that and later in reply the Minister for Finance said it would have no effect whatsoever on this country. He said that it was a voluntary restriction of capital by the British Government.

I did not say it would have no effect and I challenge the Deputy to produce that statement.

It was said by way of intervention.

The Deputy can prevaricate if he likes. I challenge him to produce the statement. I deny that I said it.

I will get the statement. He said he was informed of it by the British Government prior to the Government's announcing it.

That was true.

If the Minister was aware of that, why did he not take steps at the time to counteract it? I should like to quote from the Official Report of 14th June, at column 381, volume 223 No. 3 where the Minister said:

Events since the Budget have reinforced the need to reserve for capital purposes all the money it may be possible to raise by borrowing. One adverse development has been the British restriction on the outflow of capital to this country.

If the Minister was aware of this voluntary restriction, why did he not take steps at that time? Why did he wait until after the Presidential election to come in with this mini-Budget?

Does the Deputy not know well why?

I suspect. While we are collecting all this money, what do we find? There is no money for housing. Each Deputy speaking on this Budget gave the position in his own county and may I give the position in mine, a Cheann Comhairle? In 1955, when we had an inter-Party Government in office, Donegal County Council built 217 houses; in 1956, they build 161 houses; and in 1957, 139 houses. Then in 1958, in the first year of the Fianna Fáil resurrection, they had exactly half the output of the inter-Party Government; they built 81 houses. In 1959, it fell to 57 and in 1960, it came down to 31. In 1961, they built 49 houses; in 1962, 36; in 1963, 39; in 1964, 38; and in 1965 they built 53 houses. This year we are to build 23 houses, despite the fact that we have collected all that money.

The Minister may say: "When you people were in office, you ran into difficulties such as we are experiencing today. In 1957, you had difficulties. You had a credit squeeze and you found yourselves in exactly the same position." Up to a point that is true, but at that time we were building 139 houses, 161 houses and 217 houses. I would remind the Minister that at that time we had the Korean War and the Suez crisis and we took immediate steps to rectify the balance of payments. We all remember the levies which were put on by the inter-Party Government. We remember the slight restriction on credit. We took remedies which, in our opinion, would get the State ship back on to an even keel again.

We were not six months out of office until the position was restored and let me quote proof of that by referring to something which the then Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, the present Minister for Local Government, Deputy Blaney, said at column 249, volume 171 of the Official Report for 30th October, 1958. He was referring to what he called the state in which the inter-Party Government left the country when Fianna Fáil took over and he said:

We find that six months following the disappearance of the Coalition Government, and on the assuming of office by Fianna Fáil, the new Minister for Local Government had to sanction a backlog of schemes that had been lying there all during the latter months——

the latter months——

——of the Coalition's term of office, schemes to the total of almost £900,000 which had accumulated in the Custom House and could not be allowed see the light of day because there was no money to pay for those already in progress.

Within eight months of leaving office, as a result of the steps we had taken, the new Minister in the Fianna Fáil Government was not only able to pay for all current work but was also able to sanction £900,000 worth of other schemes. That money did not come out of a crock of gold or from any other imaginary source. It came as a result of the steps we took to ensure that the position in which we found ourselves would be properly remedied and rectified.

There is no money today for housing. What is worse, there is no money for house repair. We have cottages in my constituency which we are unable to repair because we cannot get any money from the Department of Local Government. There is no money for social welfare. True, the Minister may turn round and tell me: "Ah, yes. We hit the people hard in the Budgets but we have to look after the old, the recipients of unemployment assistance, and so on". The Minister will give them a meagre 5/- per week, but only if they have no means, and then not until 1st November. There is no money for minor relief schemes. They played a very important part in the economy of rural Ireland. They have been abolished. There is no money for the Local Authorities (Works) Act. That was introduced by the late lamented Deputy Tim Murphy when he was Minister for Local Government in the inter-Party Government. That Act conferred considerable benefit on rural Ireland. Though still on the Statute Book, no money has ever been provided under it. There is no money for private enterprise. It is a thing of the past.

Have we ever considered the effect of these March and June Budgets on the individuals? I will take only one individual, the man who has to use a motor car and who does an average 30,000 miles a year—that is not a lot —getting 30 miles to the gallon, and that is a conservative estimate. That man will use 1,000 gallons of petrol. A tax of 4d. per gallon on petrol gives a figure of £16 13s 4d. That is what it will cost extra for petrol. On top of that, if the car is 12 or 13 H.P., that man will pay an additional £6 in tax. That brings the sum to £22 13s 4d. Allowing an average of £200 per year for depreciation and paying a turnover tax or a selective wholesale tax of five per cent, that brings the sum up by another £10. In other words, these Budgets mean an extra £32 13s 4d on the average motorist. That is a very severe blow.

I shall not go into the merits or demerits of this selective wholesale tax but I should like to give a quotation with regard to the merits of this tax. It is not a quotation of my own. I am not in a position either to agree or disagree with it, but I should like to tell the present Minister for Finance what his predecessor thought about a wholesale tax. I am quoting from volume 204 of the Official Report of 10th July, 1963, column 701:

Deputy T.F. O'Higgins made a long speech against this tax generally but he did not like to end his speech without throwing a sop to RGDATA... Everybody knows enough about trade to realise that if the tax were put on at the manufacturer level, it would have to be made very much higher to get the same yield. If the manufacturer's price is so much, there is a margin added on by the wholesaler and a margin added on again by the retailer. It is obvious there must be a higher tax at the manufacturer level than at the retail level.

Who said that?

Deputy Ryan, when he was Minister for Finance, supporting the turnover tax he introduced, and giving the reasons why it should not be a selective wholesale tax. His argument was that in the long run the consumer would pay very much more than the five per cent, or whatever the figure was. There was a Minister for Finance giving reasons why it should be a turnover tax and not a selective wholesale tax. On to the latter, in his opinion, would be added a percentage for the wholesaler's profit and on to that an additional percentage for the retailer's profit; he said further that if one put on a five per cent tax, it would eventually end up at nine per cent and that was his reason for not introducing a wholesale tax. That was the reason he introduced the cruel turnover tax of 1963.

I am sorry Deputy Tully is not here. He interrupted Deputy Harte this morning when Deputy Harte referred to the resignation of Deputy Cunningham from the chairmanship of Donegal County Council. This may be a little parochial but I am sure it will interest the House: Deputy Cunningham resigned from the chairmanship of Donegal County Council last week. I understand he will be a candidate all over again next week for the same chairmanship.

He is the favourite.

He will get it, too. He resigned because some colleague to whom he had promised a job as a lorrydriver did not get it.

I do not think this is fair.

I do not think it is fair either. I am just telling you what occurred.

I do not think it should be discussed here.

Neither do I, but I will tell you what would be fair. Deputy Cunningham and his Party supported an increase of £2 5s a week for the road workers in Donegal at a time when they knew the county council could not afford it and the Minister for Local Government would not sanction it. The Minister refused it. Why did Deputy Cunningham not resign then?

Deputy Cunningham's activities——

This is very interesting.

——in respect of Donegal County Council are not relevant to this debate.

The money was not there, but Deputy Cunningham and his Party——

Deputy O'Donnell knows quite well what is relevant and what is not.

We had a very interesting speech from Deputy Lenihan yesterday. I have a great respect for him. He is a very clever man and I always believed he would be an acquisition to this House. However, his speech yesterday was most peculiar. It amounted to: What would you do if you were in office? We have not the opportunity of knowing the facts and knowing what is in the kitty and, therefore, I could not tell the Deputy what we would do, but I can tell him a few things we would not have done. One thing we would not have done is to hold the local elections and the Presidential election on two different dates. We would have held them on the one day and saved the country a quarter of a million pounds. We would never have given a job at £1,000 a year to a pensioner who was receiving £3,000 a year.

And £8,000 gratuity.

I am not referring to whether he is entitled to the £8,000 gratuity or the £3,000 pension. What I am discussing is that, having given him that and having retired him, they bring him back, give him another £1,000 and place him in charge of Telefís Éireann.

To wreck Telefís Éireann, the same as he wrecked CIE.

And in this time of credit squeeze and financial crisis, we would never have spent £500,000 on Leinster House. It is very significant that in relation to this expenditure, we seem to have given up hope of ever ending Partition. We have now built permanent premises here. We have made provision for the Government, for the Opposition, for the various Parties and for the Independents. Not a spare room has been built for the representatives of the north-east of this country, in the event of the end of Partition. Not one room has been allocated in the building and not one spare seat in this Chamber has been left for them. Have we given up all hope of solving Partition in our time?

Again, let me tell Deputy Lenihan that, if we had bought the British and Irish Steampacket Company which was making £87,000 a year profit, we would never in our first year of ownership have allowed it to lose £57,000. What is wrong there? Is it not bad management of some description? Again, we would have ensured that we would have got from the United Nations the £1 million due to us for our troops in Cyprus, and we would not have been too proud to take it simply because Russia had not contributed towards it.

The Deputy is giving them great help.

We would never have introduced that dreaded turnover tax.

What about the Offences against the State Act?

I shall come to that in a few minutes. We would never have brought in legislation to set up a new Ministry without assuring the House that it would not mean an additional Department of State.

That is coming up after lunch.

It is on the menu and we shall devour it.

I hope it is better than most things on the menu in Leinster House. Another thing we would not have done in this time of crisis, when local authorities are screaming for money for housing, for roads, hospitalisation and everything else, is to hold a seminar in the Shelbourne Hotel in Dublin. A seminar on what? On planning, no less. Every county councillor in Ireland has received from his county secretary a letter which I should like to read. Ours is dated 15th June, addressed from the County Secretary's Office, County House, Lifford, to each member of the county council:

With reference to previous correspondence concerning a planning seminar to be held in Dublin at the end of June, the Department of Local Government——

They never say "the Minister".

——has informed me that it may be regarded as a local authority conference, which means that travelling expenses may be paid to members who attend.

I should be grateful if you would let me know by return, if possible, if you propose attending, as it will be necessary to send particulars to An Foras Forbartha and to have you nominated by the council.

I am telling Deputy Lenihan now, since he asked me yesterday what we would have done, that is one of the things we would never have permitted, to allow each member of a local authority in Ireland to come to the Shelbourne Hotel in Dublin in the month of June, at the expense of the taxpayer, for a seminar on planning, at a time when there is a credit squeeze and when the country is in financial straits. I have given Deputy Lenihan ten things we would not have done, and if we had an opportunity of looking at the figures, there might be a good few other things I could tell him we would not have done.

I was listening to the Taoiseach's speech here the other day and he was very cross. He reminded me very much of a man walking along a road at night, a man who is lonely, who fears something and who keeps whistling to himself, sometimes shouting and sometimes passing rude remarks, simply because he is afraid, a man, to use the words of a popular song, who keeps looking over his shoulder because he knows there is somebody walking behind. There is no justification whatever for this Budget, but the Taoiseach told us he was full of fight. Fight for what? I presume he meant political fight. I wish he would be more aggressive in tackling the economic problems which are pressing on this country. If he were more active and showed more fight on that, we would be much better off. Last year and the year before in introducing the Budget, there was a lot of talk about the European Economic Community. We did not hear it mentioned very much this year. Many hours were spent over the last nine years in this House discussing the Common Market. On one occasion I remember interrupting to ask “Quo Vadis?”—where are you going? I never got a reply to that. If the Minister had told us something in his Budget speech about where we were going, then we would have had an opportunity of discussing it.

Deputy Burke has been absent from this discussion. The last time he suggested a subscription of 6d, but I did not hear him try to raise the "ante" to 1/- this time. He kept very much in the background. It is a pity, because Deputy Burke's contributions to these debates are always interesting. Possibly he is more preoccupied at the moment with an announcement which was made recently of one of the ecclesiastical colleges being thrown open to the layman than with taking up collections. However, as I say, he is always original, and he offered a solution to the tragedy of the 1965 Budget and to the problem of our financial position which was certainly not a sound economic one but which was a practical suggestion and more than we have had from most other Fianna Fáil speakers.

Fine Gael speakers have followed generally the line adopted by the last speaker. It was a very typical Fine Gael speech: what they would not do; but no word at all about what they would do, or the remedies they would adopt for the situation in which the country and the Government find themselves at the moment. It is not the first time we had a credit squeeze; it is not the first time we had a situation like this in the country, but Deputy P. O'Donnell's speech is typical of Fine Gael policy and Fine Gael attitudes. Yet, if they were in office today with a credit squeeze and other economic difficulties on their shoulders, they would stop planning. Yes, they would; Deputy P. O'Donnell said it is one of the things they would not do: they would not plan; they would not hold a planning conference. We know they would not, because they are not a Party who can ride the storms. They are OK when things are running smoothly; they certainly would drop planning and drop everything. As a matter of fact, if they were in office, they would run out as they did before. They would drop everything: they would not put on taxation, but would run away instead of having two Budgets. They would not have any Budget; they would run away from the Budget, as they did before, and they would stop planning.

I agree with Deputy P. O'Donnell. He has made the most typical and true Fine Gael speech ever made in this House because there would be no planning, no Budget and they would have a general election and do the same as they did before, not face up to the difficulties of the situation which would exist in the country, no matter what Government were in office.

Does the Deputy agree with spending a weekend at the Shelbourne Hotel at the taxpayers' expense?

I disagree with the Fine Gael policy adopted in exactly similar circumstances before: no planning and no provision for the future. Fine Gael are talking for the past three weeks as if this country will never have a future again. Stop planning, stop taxation, do not find any money—that is, always was, and forever will be the Fine Gael policy. They will not change their spots; they may change their name—as they have done, Cumann na nGaedheal to Fine Gael—but deep down, there is this attitude to difficulties. They are not prepared to face them. They are not prepared, in a difficult period, to make any plans but rather they drop everything. We know; Deputy P. O'Donnell did not have to get up and tell us what Fine Gael would have done. We have the picture before us of what they did in exactly similar circumstances in 1957. There was a credit squeeze then, though they did not even admit there was. They stopped planning, when it was necessary to keep planning for the future; they did not think then this country had a bright future and they do not think that now from their speeches. Their speeches are doing more damage to the future than many of the economic difficulties which this country is facing. Yes, we know what they would do. It is ridiculous for a man who has been a Minister and is a shadow Minister to say——

Notice taken that 20 Members were not present; House counted, and 20 Members being present,

Deputy P. O'Donnell has told us what a Fine Gael Government would not have done. They would not do any planning for the future; they would not have a planning conference in Dublin this week; they would not put on extra taxation. We know that: he did not have to tell us. We know they did not plan before in 1957 in a similar difficult economic and financial situation. Fine Gael think there is no future to plan for; they say it is not necessary to have a Budget, not necessary to have a mini-Budget. In other words, they say there is no need for taxation. We know they would not have a Budget. When they were faced with similar difficulties before, they did not have one; they had a general election instead, and we know what happened. But I will tell Deputy Donegan, and he can tell Deputy P. O'Donnell, what they would have done now. They would begin selling out, as they did before. There are Constellations again which could be sold; there are the Inchicore works which could be closed down.

We did not close Inchicore works.

In what appears to be their view of the present situation—which they call a desperate situation—there are many things they would do, judging by what they did in the past, and they have not changed. The country does not want a Government such as that. The workers of this country do not want that Fine Gael policy: do nothing and start selling out. That is the only policy those people across the House are able to put before us.

We have had a very unpleasant experience this year of two Budgets within a period of 90 days. If one looks back over the policy pursued by the Fianna Fáil Government, it is not really surprising, and it would not be particularly surprising if we were to have a third Budget in view of the way the Government are carrying on the affairs of this country. We have seen what has happened over the past few years. It started off with the turnover tax. When the Fianna Fáil Government found they needed more money, they introduced the turnover tax. That was the most vicious—it is the only way it can be described—form of taxation ever put on the people of this country. It made no distinction whatsoever between people who could afford to pay tax and people who were trying to exist on social welfare benefits. The man with £5,000 a year was asked to pay the same tax, under this turnover tax system, as an old age pensioner.

After that, we had the 12 per cent increase negotiated by the trade union movement and we had the Government standing back and watching prices soaring and every would-be bandit in the country making sure he could have his share of the loot. No attempt whatsoever was made by the Fianna Fáil Government to introduce effective price control, although they were asked repeatedly to do so. Time and again they were told what the consequences would be if price control was not introduced. However, after the damage had been well and truly done, they were converted to the Labour Party's policy of price control.

We had an election in this country approximately 18 months ago. During the course of the campaign, the Taoiseach, his Ministers and Fianna Fáil spokesmen went the length and breadth of this country telling the people: "Let Lemass lead on". The Taoiseach invited the people to come in and paddle in the pool of Fianna Fáil prosperity. They have seen the pool now. I am afraid the Taoiseach and this Government have led the people into very deep water and they have no idea in the world how to get them out.

We in the Labour Party realise that many of the things we desire for the people we represent can be realised only if the necessary money is raised by way of taxation but the mini-Budget is not a Budget to achieve this end. It is a Budget to try to pay for the mistakes of the Government. This Budget has one purpose, and one only, that is, to pay for the mismanagement of the country by Fianna Fáil.

We have seen since the general election what the true story is. We have seen that instead of this prosperity that Lemass was leading us all into, we have a situation in which there are no houses for very many of our people. No money is being provided or no money can be provided by Fianna Fáil because we have not got it. We find that, shortly after they took up office after the last election, there was a complete switch. There was a cut-back on housing. There was no money for health. There was no money for anything.

We have the unfortunate Minister for Health rushing around issuing White Papers. It is about all he can issue because there is no money to implement anything he may have had in mind when he took up that office. We find the same thing with regard to the Minister for Local Government. Even on today's Order Paper, we find a very considerable number of questions put down by Deputies who want to know when the local authorities will get money and when people who have all the necessary qualifications for grants can hope to get them.

The fact of the matter is that there is no money. Not only are the Government not able to provide these things for the people but they had the audacity to come in here three months after the Budget and introduce this mini-Budget. As I have said before, this mini-Budget is not to provide anything or implement anything, but to pay for the mismanagement and mistakes of this Government. It is very clear to everyone that the Fianna Fáil Government and the Fianna Fáil Party have completely lost the confidence of the people and they are very conscious of the fact that they have lost that confidence.

The local elections have been postponed on a flimsy excuse because the Government knew in their heart that if the people had an opportunity, either at local or national level, they would give the only effective answer they could for the complete mess the Government have made of the country in a short space of time.

This Budget has been described as a mini-Budget. When you look through it, it is not so "mini" a Budget. It was very cleverly produced by the Minister for Finance. In fact the major portion of the charges to be raised have yet to be the subject of a separate Bill in this House before the impost arises on 1st October next.

When one looks at the Minister's main Budget of this year, one realises the wide range of articles on which indirect taxation has been placed. The range is so wide that while it has not been possible for anybody to point the finger of scorn at the Minister and say: "You put 6d on cigarettes or you put 6d on the pint", nevertheless when one looks at the complete range, one discovers the amount of taxation that is being levied as an extra impost on the ordinary fellow who smokes cigarettes, fills a seat in a car, drives his own car or drinks the odd pint is very cruel indeed. It is far more cruel than was apparent at the time. It is also true of the mini-Budget because we do not know yet what the full range of articles to be covered by the five per cent wholesale tax will be. Deputy O'Donnell pointed out that the Minister's predecessor was entirely opposed to this tax. Doctors differ and patients die. One in this case was a doctor and the other a barrister and many of the patients, the consuming public, are in a bad way, while others have to emigrate.

Nearing the end of this debate when so much has been said, it might be better to take a different line, and while the subject under discussion means we can discuss the same thing, I feel one of the things I should address myself to is the Taoiseach's speech. Before I proceed to do so, I should like to say that the Taoiseach, as Prime Minister of this country, found himself in the position of having to introduce a second Budget ten weeks after an extremely harsh one. One would have expected from him in such circumstances a certain degree of responsibility, a clear exposition not only of the reasons why this became necessary but also of his views on future policy. One would have thought he would have treated this in a serious way and that his speech would have been statesmanlike.

Instead, he made vulgar references to newspaper reporters who normally do their work in that posture anyway. He made fighting references to Fine Gael and asked the age-old question which Deputy Burke asks every year on every Budget: "When you walk up those stairs, will you vote against the halfcrown for the old age pensioners?" That was the Taoiseach's main theme. If we were to vote against this not so mini-Budget, we would be voting against 2d a gallon for milk, and he mentioned other things in which there was a shortfall and for which money was required. This is the most simple political trick which one would expect from a new county councillor on his first visit to the council chamber. It is not a valid attitude having regard to the position in which we find ourselves—the Taoiseach, the Prime Minister, returning for a second Budget ten weeks after a really harsh Budget. This sort of thing will not do.

I should like to quote from the Taoiseach's speech, reported at column 571, volume 223 of the Official Report for Wednesday, 15th June. He said:

To fulfil these purposes, the Government require more money and that money can be secured only by an adjustment in taxation rates. Those who voted yesterday against these new taxes must be assumed to be against these proposals, against the provision of these additional farm price supports, this additional income for farmers, and the payment of these additional amounts to the employees in the public services to whom they relate.

Further on the Taoiseach said:

That is a simple proposition. No Deputy need be confused in his mind about it. It is a proposition upon which it is possible for any Deputy to say: "I am for it" or "I am against it". The Government's proposition is that these additional payments should be made; these higher farm price supports should be given; these increases should be awarded in the Public Services as they have been awarded outside...

Our line is that it is the Government's mistakes during the past few years that have caused the necessity for this not so mini-Budget. The Government led the people astray before the general election last year and before the Presidential election this year. They did it deliberately to time the unpleasant things for the day after the people had voted and to time the hopeful statements and wonderful arguments for ante-election speeches.

It is logical for us to criticise the fact that the Government's priorities have gone wrong. It is necessary for any Cabinet, sitting with Taoiseach and Minister for Finance, to decide on priorities. On this occasion the Taoiseach refused to talk about priorities. Before the general election, he said there was plenty of money for everything. As Deputy Cluskey has said, the others shouted: "Let Lemass lead on". Let us take a few instances close to our minds. Deputy O'Donnell spoke of the spending of £500,000 on the extension to Leinster House. We built that and continued to build it but we could have done without it for a while. There are 50 families in Griffith Barracks whose husbands can visit them for half an hour a day because there are no houses for them. We have begun a major scheme of system building in Ballymun. System building is not cheaper. It is only quicker. Yet that scheme is running far behind schedule and the general opinion is that it will work out considerably dearer. A major factor in the delay is that the Government had not the money to pay the builder and, so that he will not go bankrupt, he is doing the only thing he can do, slowing down.

We are occupying the £500,000 extension to Leinster House. Arguments of whether we wanted it are not relevant. The point is that our priorities have gone wrong. Let us now consider the just case of the farmers for 2d a gallon for their milk. We do not know yet whether they will have to go to jail if they do not pay their fines. We know that the Minister for Agriculture indicated that he would not give them anything but we also know that inside six weeks he had to provide a large sum to give them a just increase. It was beaten from him, literally in the political sense. It was beaten from the Minister for Agriculture and the Minister for Finance.

Does this also not mean that we have fallen down on our priorities? Other building has gone on in Dublin with the permission of the Government while the Government of Britain stopped all non-essential building in favour of housing by putting a tax on it. If I were to suggest that the Government built the Irish Sugar Company building, I would be correct because the Government own the majority of the shares and the shareholders can dictate policy. That building was done at a time when the people of Dublin had not houses to live in. Is it not true also that at the same time the insurance companies built sumptuous new offices? It is agreed that a certain amount of insurance company funds can be put into fixed assets, into national loans. I suggest that in relation to this building and indeed in relation to the building of Liberty Hall, if the Government were to get their priorities right, they could have made it more attractive for the agencies who built these edifices to put their money into national loans which would have given us money to build the houses for our people.

The fundamental difference between Fianna Fáil and this Party, and the Labour Party when they were members of the inter-Party Government, is that we produced houses as a priority and that Fianna Fáil have relegated housing, for their own convenience, to a secondclass position. The reason is that when a Government are running into four or five elections—two by-elections, a general election and a Presidential election and one local election which, as Deputy Cluskey pointed out, has been postponed on a pretext—and they are running short of money, one of the easiest things to do is to cut down on housing. All the Government have to do in that case is to have a malleable political Minister for Local Government who will make sure sanction does not go out. That is the easy way; it is the way to get in in elections and to come back afterwards to correct the deliberate misdoings while at the same time leaving 50 families in Griffith Barracks and permitting the building of sumptuous offices.

Let us take another example of ante-election and post-election policy. Let us look at the situation whereby the Minister for Finance 11 weeks ago, one week before the mini-Budget and ten weeks after the major Budget, produced the amount of the increase in remuneration we could expect this year, a figure of three per cent. His reason was that this was the estimated increase in the gross national product. I know he is not a mathematician and therefore I do not want to go into the details of that. I am not one either but I think I know a little more about it than he does.

Anybody who looks at the mathematics of that suggestion will not be looking at it for more than 30 seconds before he realises that an increase of three per cent in the gross national product does not mean we can have three per cent. It could mean we could be entitled to 30 per cent or perhaps to nothing at all. It is merely a convenient method for somebody who looks at these things rather lightly and has his speeches written for him by his officials on all occasions. The Labour Court corrected the Minister for Finance inside six weeks. Where has responsibility gone if we have a situation whereby the Labour Court, sitting to decide a dispute before it, decides that the sum of the increase we can afford is of the order of nine per cent when the Minister for Finance says six weeks before that that the increase is of the order of three per cent? That is where the Government also made an error. They refused to budget in their major Budget before the Presidential election for the increase they knew was probable and produced instead this three per cent as something completely dishonest and having no mathematical relation to the formula they produced to support it.

There has been discussion about our borrowings. Over the past five or six years, the Government have been riding on the crest of a wave provided by the influx of capital here. This was making it easy for them until about the time of the Cork and Kildare by-elections. They were in a position whereby much of our capital works was being financed by this influx, which was also carrying our balance of payments. But when we have to resort to short-term borrowing in Germany and from the Bank of Nova Scotia, having failed to get it in America, the results of such short-term borrowings are pretty evident. When you borrow by means of a national loan here over a long term of years, the amount you have to take from the capital side of the Budget and bring up into the current Budget is minimised; but when you borrow for ten years you have to bring up a far greater amount.

As a general principle, short-term borrowing means higher current taxation. That means that the trade union organisations will naturally seek to recoup the loss to their members because of higher current taxation and you are therefore increasing the costs of production. One of the things about short-term borrowing is that it increases the costs of your export production. We have had resort now to short-term borrowing in two instances and we still have to borrow £5 million. All the indications are that the Government will go to the Bank of Guatemala, if they can get the money there, and borrow on short term there. When you borrow for ten years, four or five times as much has to come into current taxation. That is one of the reasons why we will have a higher tax situation here and a higher costs situation. This will mean grave danger to our export trade.

I would have thought that the Taoiseach instead of referring to newspaper commentators in a most improper way, instead of telling us in Fine Gael that we had a fight on our hands—we always knew that because we always knew Fianna Fáil would die hard—would have indicated his future plans for the provision of the capital so necessary in our underdeveloped country. He could have indicated how much he thought he would be able to secure in national loans next year. We have been accused of making no suggestions in this debate. The Taoiseach could have created a situation taxwise that would pay insurance companies and large corporations not to build sumptuous blocks of offices but to put their money into national loans that would build houses for our people. Instead, he indulged in the abuse for which he is famous when in a corner.

We must face the fact that there is no plan for State borrowing and capital investment. Deputy Cunningham objects and suggests if Fine Gael were in office at present, they could have every county councillor in Ireland in the Shelbourne Hotel next week. They are the people who are guilty of not planning. They are the people prepared to ride it out from one election to another on the basis of keeping their jobs. I think I have indicated that the Government have failed in their priorities. It is no alibi for them to suggest that we should get them out of the soup, although we are prepared to make constructive suggestions. I think we have made one in relation to priority in housing.

I would refer to the Taoiseach's speech again and to the fact that he chose to be derogatory of the Fine Gael Front Bench. For the purpose of making my further remarks relevant and in order, I quote the Taoiseach at column 578 of the Official Report. He said:

What an alternative Government, these shadow Ministers named the other day as the Government.

He then went on to say he was the head of the best Cabinet in Europe. I should like to discuss that. Since the Taoiseach has raised it and since it is the activities of this Cabinet that have put us in our present position, I think it is in order to do so. We are at our wits end to provide capital for necessary works. Yet we have had a series of spectacular failures in industries in which Cabinet Ministers have been almost always implicated, in which Cabinet Ministers have been seen around this town wining and dining with principals in certain industries in which there were spectacular failures. I want to suggest before I discuss these failures that when someone invests his own money, it is most unusual to have a spectacular failure within a year or even two or three years, and in some cases before the project is opened at all. When you are putting your own money down on the table, you tend to be far more careful.

I want to point to a few of these failures. We know what the situation is in Potez. We can all say now— and most people outside the House would agree—that the idea of employing 1,700 people in the construction of executive aircraft in a small country like this would seem to have been ill advised, to say the least of it. We are well aware that the Minister for Transport and Power told every Deputy in Monaghan, including his own Deputies, not to come near him as he had made arrangements for a new factory in Clones. We are now aware that the unfortunate French manufacturer who produced the machinery and brought it in in packing cases sees that the factory is now empty, with the machinery sitting in it and the factory in liquidation. The most he may get is 1/- or 2/—or let us be hopeful, 20/— in the £. We are aware that the best supporter of the Minister for Transport and Power built the factory at a cost of £40,000 and his money is also in the liquidator's net. We are aware that the factory never opened. We are aware that there is a factory connected with the Irish steel industry which was never opened in Cabra in Dublin. This was also the subject of very heavy grants and loans. We are aware that a factory for the production of food has closed in Laois-Offaly. There was a grant of £120,000 and a Taiscí Stáit loan of £90,000.

What factory is that?

This occurred last year.

What factory is it?

I will tell the Deputy and he will be sorry he interrupted me.

I am never sorry. Do not threaten me.

I am not threatening the Deputy. The factory is Ever-Fresh Foods.

That factory has not closed down.

There was a Taiscí Stáit loan of £94,000, of which £4,000 has been repaid.

That factory has not closed down. It is going ahead.

Leave it so. I want to point out the fact that at least £3 million has been lost in these projects, and I want to judge them by this sliderule. If I went into a bank to borrow money and knew I had to repay it even to the extent of selling my house if that project went wrong, it would be one chance in a thousand that the project would go wrong before it opened, or within the first or second year. People are not as foolish as that and the people at the heads of international industries are not as foolish as that.

I hold that the best Cabinet in Europe is guilty of having influenced the grants board in relation to the issue of these moneys. You can get as awkward as you like about it. We claim that it was because of mistakes by the Government that these projects went badly immediately on opening, or even before opening. We believe this is evidence that things are very wrong. The best Cabinet in Europe has also been guilty of nepotism and patronage. A fortnight ago the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries chose to interrupt me here and suggest something in relation to my private business. I do not think it was in any way vicious, or intended to do harm, but the difference is that my personal business has absolutely no relation to Government funds, absolutely no relation to semi-State companies, and absolutely no relation to appointments made at the behest of Ministers. I want to say here and now that it is a public scandal that the audits of Bord na gCon, Irish Shipping and various semi-State organisations should be directed in a certain way.

I will not go any further on this question of patronage except to say— and I intend to use no names for obvious reasons—in relation to the appointments to the Board of Telefís Éireann that the Government deserve to lose the next election for that reason alone. To my knowledge, every member of that Board, except perhaps three, is a Government supporter. This is not the board of a company or a semi-State organisation like Bord na gCon. This is the Board that is charged with responsibility for the dissemination of news on television and radio. The first responsibility of the Government is towards freedom, and a responsibility devolves upon them to see that in the production of the news, in the dissemination of views upon the news, and in the general handling of our television and radio programmes which enter the houses of all of us. there should be fair play.

Not only should there be fair play, but justice should be seen to be done. That is quite impossible so long as we have a list of people appointed to the Board who are all Fianna Fáil supporters. I can point to three whose politics I do not know. I am deliberately not being personal in this matter, but I am saying that Fianna Fáil deserve defeat for that reason alone. Is that what we fought for in 1916? Is that what the people who went before us fought for in 1916? I do not think it is.

If I had anything to do with this problem in the future, if I were a member of a Fine Gael Cabinet—if Fine Gael succeeded in the next general election—my proposal would be—and I want to be quite blunt about it—to ask every member of that Board for his resignation so that there would be a free appointment of the same people again, or of other people, to indicate to the nation as a whole that there is no undue interference with the affairs of Telefís Éireann. Let us remember that during the entire Presidential campaign not one meeting addressed by Deputy T.F. O'Higgins appeared on the television screens. Let us remember that.

Hear, hear.

For that reason alone, Fianna Fáil should be defeated at the next election, because you are taking unto yourself a right in regard to the dissemination of news which no one ever had on this side of the Iron Curtain. Deputy Egan is a decent back bench member of Fianna Fáil. I have known him as a decent man in this House for the past 12 years but he believes that is right.

Not one meeting addressed on behalf of the President was televised either.

I will deal with this.

Not one.

Everything was arranged for him so that he could be on television twice a day.

I have no complaint against the President for so doing. I have no personal grudge in regard to the President's activities during his previous term of office or since he became President again. It is his right and his prerogative to go to functions as President five times a day, if he likes. He went to one a week for the previous five years. He went to four a day during the month before the Presidential election and Telefís Éireann had him on the screen at least three times.

If I may interrupt the Deputy, I cannot see how this has any relevance to the Financial Resolution. It would be a matter for the Estimate and the Deputy would be entitled to raise it there.

I pass from it. With respect, this arose out of the fact that the Taoiseach spoke in a derogatory manner about us and described his Cabinet as the best Cabinet in Europe. I was going to the trouble of pointing out the sins and omissions of this Cabinet and the fact that Deputy Egan, whom I know to be a decent, respectable back bench member of Fianna Fáil, has become so indoctrinated that he thinks it right that a Presidential candidate who was defeated by one-half of one per cent—all that was needed was a swing of, one-half of one per cent—should not appear on the television screen during the entire period of his campaign. That could not happen in Russia.

Labhair sé ar an Telefís — é féin, a bhean agus a chlann.

That does not arise.

Very well; I pass from it.

Níl sé ag innsint na fírinne.

Cén fá go bhfuil tú ag caint?

Tá mé á rá go raibh an Teachta Ó hUiginn agus a bhean ar an Telefís.

B'fhéidir go mba cheart dom bheith ag caint as Gaeilge.

Aithníonn ciaróg ciaróg eile.

This is all very enlightening.

It is all very enlightening, all right. In support of the suggestion that the Government were in a good position over the last number of years, I should like to give one figure—the December, 1965, figure for import and export prices, base 1953 equals 100. The import prices stood at 114.2 and the export prices at 112.2. Notwithstanding everything that has been said, the position is that the Government were only two per cent worse off than they were in 1953 as far as the terms of trade were concerned. If they had done their job right, things could have been much better for the country but the Government chose to produce the 12 per cent wage increase at the time of the two by-elections and to boast about it. They had the information as to whether or not this could be paid. It was proved afterwards, of course, that it could not be paid.

I should like to point now to the number of industrial disputes that took place in the various years. In 1962, there were 60 such disputes; in 1963, 70; in 1964, 87; in 1965, 89. The number of work people involved in disputes in progress is also very relevant: In 1962, only 9,197; 1963, 16,067; 1964, 25,245; 1965, 39,745. Let us consider the number of man days lost.

One and a half million.

No, it is not one and a half million. The Deputy should get his statistical knowledge right.

I do know that from 1961 to 1964 there were 1,260,000 and some odd hundreds of days lost.

I think the Deputy is not quite right.

If the Deputy does a quick tot, he will find that I am right.

If we take the days lost due to unemployment.

The figures are: 1962, 104,024; 1963, 233,617; 1964, 545,384; 1965, 556,475. If Deputy Andrews wants to do the tot, he is more than welcome.

I have already done it.

He will realise how bad things are. We maintain that the fact that the Government related everything to an election and made votes their god is the reason we have arrived at this sad dilemma today.

I was put off in my discussion of this question of the best Cabinet in Europe by the fact that it was ruled irrelevant. I should like to mention one thing that happened to me yesterday, for the second time. A Fianna Fáil Senator came up to me in the passage and said: "What you said three months ago was right. It is the young fellows in the Cabinet who will bring us down. You would want a 50 guinea suit if you were to go near them." These are interesting little points. That was said to me by a Fianna Fáil Senator, who was elected by the Fianna Fáil Party and nominated by the Fianna Fáil Party. I had better not give his name or he will be thrown out.

Let us consider the number of houses being built and the slowing down in housing. I quote from the Economic Series 1964-66, No. 56—Housing. State-aided schemes, number of new houses built by private persons and public utility societies. Whereas, in January, 1966, there were 584 houses built as against 545, in February, the figure had worsened and there were only 574 houses built as against 658 built in February, 1965. In March, again the slowing down was evident. There were 606 houses built in 1965 and only 467 in 1966. In April, when building should be coming up, there were 838 built in 1965 and 756 built in 1966. For May the figures were 635 in 1965 and 511 in 1966.

Let us take the total number of new houses built: January, 1965, 708; January, 1966, 802—going well— February, 1965, 920; February, 1966, 652. March—the last month for which figures are available and a month in which one would think the figures would be increasing—1965, 1,106; 1966, 774.

In my constituency there are young married couples with four and five children living in one room. There are boys and girls who have been married six and seven years and are living apart. Admittedly, there are not more than ten or 20 such cases. Cases run from that terrible catastrophe from the family point of view to cases of married couples with two children living in one room. That is a national tragedy which can be laid at the door of the Government because, as I have explained, they got their priorities wrong.

The live register total at the end of the various months should be examined. Before examining it, we must take into account the change in the production of these statistics that was so kindly arranged by the Government for their own purposes a few months ago. It is very difficult to know how you compare like with unlike. I have a rule of thumb method and it is that at the week of change there was a change of 16,000 persons. I take it then that from the week of change or the week before change there would have been no change at all. Then you have to add 16,000 people to the number at present on the live register to get the comparison with last year. In January 1965, there were 61,100 people. This year there were 59,200 people but when you add 16,000 to it, you get 75,000 people. In effect, there were 58,700 people in February last year. This year there were 56,600 people but if you add on the 16,000 Fianna Fáil subtracted, you get 72,000 people. In March last year, you get the figure 57,200 and this year it is 54,400. Add on 16,000, and you get 70,000 people. In April, mind you, even subtracting 16,000, they are worse off. In April, there were 52,100 people and this year there are 52,300 and adding 16,000, you get 68,000 people. That is the position in relation to the live register of unemployed.

There is another sliderule. The unemployment benefit expended weekly amounts in January, 1965, to £104,630, and in January, 1966, it was £141,390. In February, 1965, it was £97.040 and in January, 1966, it was £135,030. This is explained by the 16,000 people Fianna Fáil crossed off the register but it also shows the increase I have indicated. In March, unemployment benefit cost us £92,888 and in 1966, it was £127,730. In April, it was £82,080. This year it was £115,370. The numbers in receipt of home assistance remained constant. They remained constant of course because the amount voted for home assistance remained constant as well. The situation in the sales of insurance stamps is that the average for 1964 was 6,760 per month. In 1965, we had 6,739. For the three months, January, February and March, because of the fact that you brought more types of employment into the insurance, there were 7,764 in 1964, and only 7,421 per month in 1966.

These figures indicate a fall in housing, a fall in employment and a lessening in economic activity. The signs were there. In 1965, and I quote from the Second Programme for Economic Expansion, Progress Report, 1965:

Agricultural output fell by about one per cent below the level of 1964.

Farm income was meant to be up by one per cent as compared with six per cent in the rest of the country and total employment was down by 7,000 people. From 1965 to 1964, 14,000 people left the land and we could only, notwithstanding the extraordinary amount of money we spent on the propagation of industry, replace them by 7,000 people in industry. We had 7,000 fewer people working in 1965. We have sold less insurance stamps, for January, February and March, the three months for which figures are available in 1966 than the average which is available for 1965. That picture tells its own story. Agricultural exports for 1965 were down by £7 million.

There are times when you can be a politician and play politics. There are times when it is possible to exercise patronage. There are times when it is possible to buy votes. It just so happens that the times when these things were possible dated from the Cork and Kildare by-elections, through the general election in which we were invited to "Let Lemass Lead On," right to the Presidential election in which it was obvious that Fianna Fáil by virtue of their heritage could not let down their candidate, and right through to the mini-Budget last week. Fianna Fáil admitted to buying the votes; Fianna Fáil admitted to playing politics. It was the time when there was required a statesman. It was not a statesman last week who came in here, and attacked us and attacked the newspaper correspondents who are only telling the story they see, who gave us no indication of the future and no indication of the remedy for his ills of the past and telling us we had a fight on our hands.

Therefore, I hold, as others have held, that there is no position more indicative of a time when this Government should go to the country than the position I have just outlined. If this Government had any skin on their neck, they would go to the country. But apparently their choice is—and they glory in their choice because they tell us that when there were similar difficulties we went to the country and to the people and that this was wrong—to stay in their hole like a badger and wait to be dug out. God forbid anybody in this House should die. We have heard here for a number of years that in the normal course of events by-elections occur. If you put the 143 people of middle age together, then those by-elections will inevitably occur. I do not believe there is a constituency, with perhaps two or three exceptions, where the Government gained a majority last April 12 months that the Government could hope to win today. Let them dwell on that sobering thought. The gamble is the gamble of a gambler's government, that in fact things will get better before they have to go to the country. It would be extremely sad if deaths should bring this about and if they had to go to the country at an earlier stage. I think inevitably if things run as they always do here, there is not the slightest shadow of a doubt the Government will have to face the country in the next six to 12 months. When they do, they will be defeated because they have placed themselves by their own actions in an untenable position. They are like the man on the desert island with the tide coming in which covers it at high tide.

You cannot tell people who have no houses, people who cannot live in the present economic situation, people who have not got jobs, that you have done everything right for them under the terms of trade over the years. I prophesy that before 12 months have passed, the Government will have changed and this will be a good thing for the country.

Nuair a bhí an Teachta Donegan ag caint, rinne sé tagairt do na monarchain a dúnadh ar fud na tíre agus an méid a cailleadh orthu. Rinne sé dearmad ámh gur dúnadh monarchain in gContae an Chláir agus gur díoladh eitealláin nuair a bhí an Comh-Rialtas ann. Rinne sé dearmad gur caitheadh roinnt mhaith daoine as obair an tráth úd agus fós go ndearna Teachta ón dtaobh thall tairngreacht go mbeadh na coiníní ag poc-léimrigh cois Sionna. Buíochas le Dia, tá slua daoine ag obair san áit anois. Deineadh tairngeacht eile an tráth ud—go raghadh cruithneacht agus biatas suas tríd an simléar in éineacht leis an móin agus níor comhlíonadh an tairngeacht sin ach an oiread. Dá gcomhlíontaí í, do bheadh deire le Bord na Móna agus do bheadh cuid mhor daoine gan obair.

Deineadh tagairt freisin don mhéid daoine a d'fhag na feirmeacha ar fud na tíre. Tuigeann cách go raibh fá áirithe leis sin, eadhon, gur cheannaigh na feirmeoirí tarracóirí agus na hinnill a gabhann leo. Gach aon uair a cheannaítear inneall dá leithéid, cuirtear deire le hobair nó saothar láimhe ar an bhfeirm agus marach na monarcain a chuir Fianna Fáil ar bun sa tir, do bheadh na daoine sin uilig as obair inniu. Má tá innill agus caráistí ag na feirmeoirí inniu, bíodh a bhuíochas sin ag an Rialtas mar is iad a thug airgead dóibh chun feabhas a chur ar a mbeatha.

Tá a fhios ag gach Teachta gur tógadh níos mó tithe ar fud na tíre anuraidh ná mar a tógadh nuair a bhí an Comh-Rialtas ann. Tógadh na céadta tigh in Innis agus ar fud an Chláir anuraidh de bhreis ar a tógadh in aon bhliain roimhe sin. Im thuairimse, ba líonmaire na tithe a tógadh i gContae an Cláir anuraidh ná an méid a luadhadh ins na figiúirí a thug an Teachta Donegan le haghaidh mí ar bith. Táimid sa Chláir fíorbhuíoch den Rialtas a chuir airgead ar fáil le haghaidh na tógraí sin. Ní fheadar an bhféadfadh na Teachtaí thall inseacht dúinn, má tá an bochtanas agus an ceal airgid chomh forleathan agus a dubhradh, conas ar éirigh le daoine nua-phósta tithe nua do thógáil.

Rinne an Teachta Donegan tagairt do thogachán an Uachtaráin. Dúbhairt sé nach bhfuair an Teachta O'Higgins cothram na Féinne ón radio nó ón telefís toisc go raibh daoine áirithe ar Bhord Stiurtha na Teilifíse. Chomh fada agus is cuimhin liom, bhí pictiúr an Teachta O'Higgins maraon le pictiúirí a mhná agus a chlainne ar Thelefís Éireann i bhfad sul ar thosnaigh Fianna Fáil leis an dtoghachán úd. Fuair sé oiread poiblíochta agus a fuair Éamon de Valéra agus ar ndóigh ba cheart é a thabhairt dó. An gceapann an Teachta nár cheart go luafaí ainm Éamon de Valéra ar Thelefís Éireann? Tá a fhios agam nach ndeachaidh sé ar fud na tíre ag caint ins na bailte móra nó in aon áit eile ach, mar sin féin, bhí an bua aige.

An gceapann an Teachta nár cheart go bhfaigheadh duine ar bith go bhfuil baint aige le Fianna Fáil post ar bith ar bhord poiblí nó in áit ar bith sa tír toisc go bhfuil Rialtas Fianna Fáil ann? An gceapann sé go mba cheart go bhfaigheadh daoine go bhfuil baint acu le Fine Gael na postanna go léir? Do bhí sin amhlaidh tráth ach ón uair a cuireadh deire lena gcumhacht sé an rud a bhí ag teastáil ón Rialtas ná go mbeadh sain-eolas ag na daoine a tógtar ar na boird phoiblí ar na gnóthaí atá le déanamh acu is cuma cad iad a dtuairimí polaitíochta. De réir mar a thuigeas an Teachta níor cheart post ar bith a bheith ag duine dár muintir. An dóigh leis an Teachta gur macánta an rud é fogha nimhneach a thabhairt fé dhaoine i nDáil Éireann nach bhfuil caoi nó seans ar bith acu freagra a thabhairt air? Ba maith linn cur i gcuimhne dhó go bhfuil daoine i Fianna Fáil chomh h-ionnraic, chomh macánta le duine ar bith sa bhFreasúra.

Rinne an Teachta Donegan tagairt do 1916 agus na searmanais a bhain leis an gceiliúradh. "Cad cuige a rabhamar ag troid?" d'fhiafraigh sé. An é a thuairim gurab í brí na troda ár muintir a dhíbirt is gan post ar bith a tabhairt dóibh sa tír?

Bhí an Freasúra ag gearán ar nós sean-mhnáa bheadh a croí cráite ag báirseach mná a bheadh ag tromaíocht ar a comharsain. Ón uair a thosnaigh an díospóireacht seo, ní dhearna duine ar bith acu iarracht a rá conas a shabháilfí airgead nó conas a ghearrfaí na cánacha a luatear ins na Tairiscintí Aírgid seo agus san am gcéanna a thabharfadh na buntáistí atá ann de bhárr na gcánach do mhuintir na tíre.

Maith thú.

Coming so late in this debate, I am sure I cannot contribute anything that has not been said and said better already by members of my own Party or other members of the Opposition. I have to repeat in my own words what has been said by the Leader of my Party about the significance of the fact that we have the annual Budget within three months of the present Budget, the mini-Budget as it is called, about the fact that provision was not made in the main Budget for the additional taxation that has been found necessary. I am quite convinced it is necessary because I do not think any Government would impose taxation for its own sake but only because they find themselves in a desperate position and are compelled to impose additional taxation.

Why the Government of that time were not in a position to judge more than three months in advance is beyond me. The Leader of my Party, Deputy Corish, made that point and I do not want to repeat things like that. After the last general election in April a year ago, I was told by somebody that if I wanted to change my car then was the time to do it because a direction was going out from the Central Bank to restrict credit for non-productive purposes. Not wishing to change my car and having no particular interest in business or money to finance it, I did not need to go to the bank but I waited to see when a Government move would be made. Mark you, it was three or four months after that and I had been re-elected, and we had resumed here before I saw any signs of what I had been told was coming, credit restriction.

Was it not strange that the Government at the time—again I have to quote somebody on this side of the House, Fine Gael—were saying "Let Lemass Lead On"? Lead on to what? Prosperity or something? It must be assumed that the Fianna Fáil motto, catchcry or electioneering idea was to lead on to more and better things than we had at the time. "Let Lemass Lead On". They must have known the position at that time because minor people in the country knew. If they had known this credit restriction was coming, then surely, before the election, the Minister for Finance and his Government who are in touch with the banking people, who are in touch with affairs in this country, must have known that the country was running into a position where our incomes were not able to stand up to our outgoings? But, as it happened, they waited practically until, I think, the month of June. I am sure the Minister will be able to give me the exact date as to when the warning note was sounded.

We can go back even further than that, to the Cork-Kildare by-elections and then to the Presidential election. I am afraid the Government must accept the accusation that they bought victory at the cost of the nation. The present position in my county—and I am quite sure in every other county— is that we have applications for roughly 120 cottages, all approved, all waiting, all anxious to get in—and the money? The money we have for this year will be used to finish 64 we started last year and, as from April onwards, the very utmost we can build will be 16 for 120 applicants and, at the end of the year, that figure of 120 will be vastly increased.

On the question of sewerage schemes and water schemes, we just do not know what is happening. We got an indication on roads. It is not a cut on last year. I shall be perfectly fair with the Government as I want to be critical if I feel they are wrong. On roads, there has not been any change of any significance. But, on sewerage and water, we just do not know the position. Is there any money coming at all? They are crying out over the past two years under pressure from the Minister for Local Government to formulate schemes, to get the schemes going, and to blame your county council if they are not done. We have 21 schemes of major importance, not regional schemes but minor schemes of major importance, and we must surely have from 40 to 60 schemes of lesser importance. There is not a hope, as far as I know, because I checked up to last Monday, of a single one of these schemes going on. I suggest that whatever sorry position we are in, and I am afraid we are in a sorry position, has been allowed to develop by either the ignorance of the Government or the dishonesty of the Government. I would charge them with being ignorant of the position—and they should not be ignorant of it—or else they have been dishonest during the last election, during the Presidential election, during all the period since the Dáil was convened after the last general election. I think I can say that in all honesty.

I can appreciate that no Government want to impose extra taxation, that no Government want to come along and impose an extra 2d on the packet of 20 cigarettes, an extra 2d on the gallon of petrol and a five per cent increase on the non-essentials, maybe, of life. But they are essentials, you know. When a man marries, he must at least have a house and if he gets a house he must have furniture, a bed, table, chairs. All of these things will carry five per cent plus the 2½ per cent turnover tax, amounting in all to 7½ per cent. To say that it will not increase the cost of living is laughable. It has increased the cost of marriage. It increases the cost of living after marrying because, after the honeymoon, there is a period when you have to face up to things and to provide the essentials. Bread, butter, medicines and various things are excluded which is a good thing and I am all in favour of the Minister's exempting them but there is the fact that this five per cent will increase the cost of living. There is the fact that organised trade unionists will realise that and will demand a further effort to compensate for it which will lead again to a spiral of wage demands and possible repressive measures. None of us in the trade union movement believes that that is the answer.

Twenty years ago, when I was being educated in the trade union movement. I remember an organiser saying to me: "A wage increase is not the answer". It would be better if we kept wages pegged and prices pegged than to have the present situation of one trying to catch up on the other. I have always found that before the Labour Court, before conciliation, before even employers at local level, you had to justify your case for a wage increase on the cost of living having gone up—not that it was likely to go up but that it actually had gone up and, very often, for maybe a year or two years before. Any trade unionist who has been before the Labour Court, who has been before conciliation or even who has entered into direct negotiations with employers has found that he has to prove not only that the cost of living is likely to go up but that it actually has gone up and he must produce facts and figures.

I am afraid the Government have lost a lot of wisdom in their prestige hunt—the question of whether we have troops in Cyprus, the Congo or anywhere else; the question of whether we have embassies or consulates in countries which I cannot see will ever be of any use to us or give us any trade or be of benefit from the point of view of emigration, and so on. There is one important country in our life here, Great Britain, our nearest neighbour, who buys most from us and from whom we buy most. I would not worry about what money was spent on establishing offices in Great Britain to deal with conditions because practically as many Irishmen are employed in Great Britain today as are employed in Ireland. It is reasonable to spend money there but it is crazy to send ambassadors to Kenya, Ghana and other African countries at the moment. If there is a trade potential there, maybe we could send out a trade delegation—not an ambassador—as the French and other people do. We could send out somebody who will sell Irish goods anywhere they can without all the trappings, dinners and all the messing that I can read about but without seeing any results.

I want to talk just a little bit about CIE. I shall not try to introduce into this general debate a detailed statement in connection with any suggested closures, lest anybody should think I might. Some of the CIE losses must be the result of no forward planning. On the line where I live, which is about to be closed, there was a replacement of the line right through my town, at what cost I do not know, within the past five years. New signal boxes were built; new sheds were built. Now, suddenly, within five or ten years, it has been found that the line is uneconomic, that it is on the lowest scale —to quote the Minister's words to the deputation—in Europe with eight passengers per day per station and so much per traffic load. He had all the details and naturally the ordinary Deputy would not have this facility and I accept what he says, but if it is so, this position did not arise last year. It did not arise the year before. It must have been happening over a long period of perhaps ten to 20 years. Surely CIE must be indicted for the fact that they were not aware that the money they were spending five to ten years ago was money down the drain? As a Deputy for that constituency, I believe there is a solution other than the closing down of the railway. It is crazy to set up an industrial estate in Waterford city and to tell the people how wonderful it is going to be from Waterford's point of view when you are cutting off the whole western portion of Munster.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
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