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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 6 Jul 1966

Vol. 223 No. 13

Committee on Finance. - Landlord and Tenant Bill, 1965: Committee Stage (Resumed).

NEW SECTION.

I move amendment No. 13:

Before section 4 to insert a new section as follows:

"() (1) Where—

(a) a lessee executes a mortgage by subdemise of the whole or part of the land comprised in his lease, retaining a nominal reversion therein, and

(b) the land comprised in the subdemise is sold for the enforcement of the mortgage,

the purchaser shall, for the purposes of this Act, be deemed to have acquired the interest of the lessee in the demised land for the entire of the unexpired term of the lease, including the period of the nominal reversion, but it shall be open to the owner of the nominal reversion to claim for the value of such nominal reversion (if any) and the value there of shall in the event of dispute, be determined as part of the purchase price of the fee simple in accordance with section 17 of this Act.

(2) This section shall apply to mortgages and sales whether effected before or after the passing of this Act."

This amendment is for the purpose of enabling mortgages to have the same rights as the lessees would have. The Minister will be aware that there is a similar provision in the Landlord and Tenant (Reversionary Leases) Act, 1958 and it would seem to me that in these cases where a mortgage has been made of the property, if it is necessary to give possession on foot of the mortgage, the same rights should apply as if he were still in occupation. I imagine that is the intention but it does not seem to be covered by the Bill.

I think the Deputy's point is a good one and we shall look into it. Broadly we accept the spirit of his amendment. There are one or two small drafting aspects to be considered but in principle we agree on it. I think the best thing would be for the Deputy to withdraw it and we shall deal with it on Report Stage.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Section 4 agreed to.
SECTION 5.

I move amendment No. 14:

In subsection (1) (b), page 5, line 52, after "Act" to insert "(except he holds such land indemnified against the entire of the rent reserved by the building lease)".

Section 5 deals with the procedure in connection with the acquisition of fee simple and provides in subsection (1) (a) that a person holding land under a building lease shall not be entitled to acquire the fee simple in the whole of the land, unless he obtains the consent to the acquisition of all persons holding the land or any of it under a proprietary lease. It goes on in subparagraph (b) of subsection (1) to provide that a person holding land under a building lease shall not be entitled to acquire the fee simple in part of the land "unless ..." Then it sets out the various exceptions.

The point brought out in my amendment is that the section, as it stands, does not go far enough as it does not in fact provide for the terms upon which a person who holds part of the land or part of the premises comprised in a building lease but indemnified against the entire of the rent reserved by the lease can acquire fee simple interest. I think the general principle of the Bill is that in such a case, whether it is a question of a ground rent or a case where a rent has been imposed but the premises are indemnified against it, the same principle should apply in the case of the rent already having been redeemed by the owner on a fee simple redemption transaction without effect previously to the covenants. I think the principle of the Bill is to cover all those types of cases. I suggest that this matter might be dealt with by inserting in subsection (b) of section 1 after the word "Act" the words "(except he holds such land indemnified against the entire of the rent reserved by the building lease)" and that the owner of the lessee's interest should then be in a position to purchase out his fee simple.

I cannot go with the Deputy on this one because there may be questions of title involved, apart altogether from the question of rent. That is what I would fear. It is desirable from the practicable point of view that everybody concerned should join in the transfer.

I would agree with the Minister that if there is a question of title involved there should be notice, but when a person holds property indemnified against rent, in other words, where nobody else has a financial interest in that property, I do not think his consent should be necessary. I agree that notice may be necessary. The Minister will realise that the practical effect of the operation of this provision in a case where the rent has already been redeemed or where property is indemnified against rent, will be in connection with the covenants under the lease. Except in particular cases which are already covered by the Bill where it is a question of protecting the landlord's own property, by and large, if nobody has a financial interest in the premises or land he has no particular interest in enforcing the covenants except covenants that are there for the protection of the landlord's own premises or his amenities, or his enjoyment of them. It is worth having another look at that kind of case. I fully agree that where there is a question of title notice would be essential. It is only the question of consent that I am raising.

I shall have another look at it.

Mr. O'Leary

In the case of acquisitions of fee simples depending on the consent of all others with an interest in the land or property, could any procedure be devised to ease the difficulty for householders acquiring fee simples in the rest of the land? Is there any machinery in a case where there is an objection to acquiring the fee simple on the part of somebody having an interest in the land by which we could have this looked into when such bottlenecks occur?

That is a consideration, but where there is a question of fundamental rights, one must be careful. I shall look into this point about the possibility of having some form of notice.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Section 5 agreed to.
SECTION 6.

I move amendment No. 15:

In page 6, line 30, to add the following:

"In the event of a person on whom such notice is served being unable or unwilling to clear an incumbrance it shall be open to the person serving the notice to request the county registrar to refer the matter to the court to determine the manner in which the incumbrance should be cleared and the purchase money disposed of."

This is the kind of section which imposes the obligation on the owner, where the fee simple has been acquired, to effect a conveyance of the property free from incumbrances to the purchasing tenant. It occurs to me in connection with this section that there might be practical difficulties. As it stands, the section does not give the lessee any power to compel the lessor to clear his title if there are any incumbrances affecting it. Suppose there is a claim for death duties or a mortgage or an annuity or something of that description. It will be a difficult problem so far as the actual drafting of the Bill is concerned and I think it would also be a difficult problem in the practical working of the Bill when it becomes an Act. There should be some procedure whereby the lessee might be entitled, for example, to lodge his purchase money in court and on such lodgment, he might be able to get a declaration from the court which would enable the lessor to give a conveyance or transfer discharged from any mortgage or incumbrance that affects it.

My amendment suggests a kind of halfway house to meet practical difficulties of this nature that are nearly bound to crop up if any widespread use is made of the machinery being provided in this Bill. I am suggesting that we add these words to section 6.

I want to make it clear that I am urging acceptance of this or some other amendment. I made it clear on the early stages that it is not easy for Opposition Deputies, on a technical Bill like this, to draft precise amendments that would be acceptable and, so far as any of the amendments I am proposing are concerned, I am not wedded to the particular wording I have used and, if alternatives are more suitable, I am perfectly happy to withdraw the amendments. I am urging this amendment, particularly from a practical point of view. I think that any practising lawyer will appreciate the importance of having some kind of enabling machinery, such as I suggest, in this Bill. If there is any such power in the Bill at the moment, as far as I can see it is only an implicit power. There is nothing specific there which will enable the applicant, in cases of this kind, to carry through his application fully in the face of an unwilling lessor who is unwilling to do more than is required by the strict letter of the law.

If you come across a case—it is very likely that it will happen in a number of these cases—where there is some incumbrance affecting the lessor's title, where there is some question such as a death on the title, where a grant of administration or probate has not been taken out and where there might be some kind of an admittedly shadowy claim for death duties there, where there might be a mortgage still appearing on the title even though it possibly has been cleared off, but no satisfaction registered, in all these kinds of cases, so that the purchasing tenant may get a clear title, any incumbrance of this sort should be cleared off.

Then you will have cases of what I might call specific incumbrances, whether by way of mortgages, annuities, or something of that sort, which are still there. These have to be cleared off in some manner if this Bill is to operate. It may very well be that, on the question of assessing the purchase price, the county registrar will have regard to these matters. He may feel—I do not think he has sufficient authority under the Bill as it stands— that he is in a position to deal with them on the basis of apportionment of so much purchase price to the lessor and so much to the owner of the incumbrance. I think there will be cases where a direction from the court will be necessary. There may be cases where a transaction can speedily be dealt with by an order of the court ordering that the money, for example, should be lodged in court and that, on lodgment in court, the conveyance of the fee simple to the purchasing tenant should be proceeded with, without delay, and that then the question of the disposition of the purchase price as between the lessor on the one hand and the owner of the incumbrance on the other should be dealt with later. I want to ensure that the purchasing tenant will not be tied up and hung up indefinitely while these kinds of questions are being sorted out as between chargeants of one sort or another and the owner of the fee simple interest.

I can see what the Deputy is getting at in this respect. Section 6 puts the onus quite clearly on the lessor to give title free of incumbrances. The Deputy's fears with regard to effecting an expeditious title transfer to the purchaser do not, in my opinion, have much foundation. I think that what the Deputy has in mind in regard to the rights of an incumbrancer are met in section 17 which gives a very global authority to the county registrar in regard to any dispute, question or difficulty arising out of such a purchase in regard to compliance by a person with a provision under the Act or any other matter arising under the Act. Any person concerned may apply to the county registrar for the area in which the land to which the application relates is situate to have the matter determined by his arbitration.

Arbitration can be six months or from twelve months down.

Taking section 6 and section 17 together, any such reference to arbitration would be a matter for the lessor and the incumbrancers. The lessee would have his or her title automatically. It can be settled by the county registrar.

If an incumbrance has not been cleared, then the owner cannot convey the property free of incumbrances. I am visualising the case where there is difficulty about clearing the incumbrance.

Mr. O'Leary

There seems to be a difficulty in this section 6 that it does not appear weighted sufficiently in the direction of the purchasing tenant as against the superior rights of a superior lessor. I do not know if it is cleared up completely under section 17. These incumbrances may, in fact, be of many years duration. I do not know if there is any time period that would cut this to its root.

In section 6, we have put the onus very squarely on the lessor that he must, without unreasonable delay, take all necessary steps to effect a conveyance free from incumbrances of the fee simple and any intermediate interests in the land to the person proposing to acquire the fee simple.

Mr. O'Leary

It is shared more or less equally there—"by whom it is served and the person upon whom it is served."

The owner and the purchaser. Not entirely; I agree with Deputy O'Leary there. However, generally speaking, suppose the owner sees he is not in a position to clear an incumbrance, where does that leave the purchasing tenant?

Mr. O'Leary

That is the point.

He writes to the county registrar, under section 17.

What can he do, except arbitrate? The arbitration is to settle a dispute. Supposing there is no dispute about the incumbrance?

What more can you do?

This might seem farfetched but take a case where there is a bank charge of, say £2,000 or £3,000 on the entire of the land and a particular tenant, who is owner of a house on that land, wants to buy out the interest. The charge affects the entire property. There might be half a dozen houses on it. Until that charge is cleared, the owner cannot give a conveyance free from incumbrances to the tenant. The owner may be getting a purchase price of only £100 or £140 from the tenant; that will not clear a charge of £3,000. There should be machinery whereby that money can be lodged in court and, on lodgment, the court would then decide whether that is to go in reduction of the charge or whether the bank, which is the owner of the charge. will be compelled to join with the owner in the conveyance. I cannot see that the amendment weakens the position. It might not and probably does not solve all the difficulties that will arise but it would be of assistance.

It would be more appropriate to consider it in the context of section 17.

Mark you, I think section 17 gives the county registrar adequate powers in this regard.

I suppose we should leave this until we come to the section. It does not provide machinery in the event of a dispute for a speedy determination of a specific question which would enable the conveyancing work to be completed.

Mr. O'Leary

Section 17 assumes that the thing has become static.

I will look at in the context of section 17. It would be more appropriate there.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Section 6 agreed to.
Section 7 and 8 agreed to.
SECTION 9.

I move amendment No. 16:

In page 7, line 52, after "expenses" to insert "(not to exceed seven per cent of the purchase money)".

This amendment is for the purpose of trying to get some agreed limit on the costs and expenses which a purchasing tenant would have to pay. Section 9 provides that a person.

who proposes to acquire the fee simple in land by virtue of this Act shall be liable for the payment of the reasonable costs and expenses actually and necessarily incurred in complying with the provisions of this Act

by a person who is minded to sell. It seems to me that that section could in some cases operate in such a way as to impose fairly considerable costs and expenses on a lessee who is exercising his rights to buy out the fee simple.

It is true to say that the section seems to imply that a fee simple owner whose title is not in order can put that title in order at the expense of the purchasing tenant. I suppose the words "reasonable costs" would mean, if the costs were not agreed, taxed costs. I have no particular objection to that, but the section goes on to refer to the expenses, and the expenses could be very considerable. They could include such things as surveyor's fees, architect's fees, mapper's fees and so on, if the question of boundaries or matters of that kind should arise on the owner's title.

Admittedly, this is a matter of taking a shot in the dark because at the moment we do not know what the general pattern is going to be in connection with these matters and it is only by trial and error that that will be achieved, but I am suggesting the Minister should consider putting into the section some kind of top limit. The limit I am suggesting is that the costs and expenses should not exceed seven per cent of the purchase money. In the normal case, people will probably feel that even seven per cent of the purchase money allocated towards costs and expenses would be too high. I am not suggesting that that should be a fixed figure but that it should be the maximum figure beyond which the lessor is not entitled to seek recoupment from the purchasing tenant if he has to incur expenses to put his title in order. After all, it is his business to have his title in order.

I should like to support Deputy O'Higgins in this matter. Any of us who has any association with local authorities and who has had experience of the taking over of plots for building bungalows and so on is aware of the position. In this case do "reasonable costs" cover the position where the gentleman has not taken out administration to clear the title? We have seen cases where some years ago a farmer got £10 an acre and the cost of transferring that acre was anywhere between £30 and £50. It seems to me that there must be a limit but I do not agree with Deputy O'Higgins that it should be seven per cent.

Consider the case of the man who succeeded in increasing the ground rent from £100 to £1,800. If the Minister has his way in regard to the 15 years purchase, I cannot imagine this man getting seven per cent on 15 times £1,800. As the matter stands, it is something that will have to be straightened out. In my opinion, the clearance of title and so on should all be done at the expense of the landlord. He is responsible for whatever mess may be there. We all know how the representatives of Mary O'Grady, who may have been dead for 100 years are still collecting. As a matter of fact, some 23 years ago, when one solicitor was collecting rents and I instructed the lads to stop paying the head rents the solicitor could not produce anyone to whom he was paying the rents. He had been collecting them up to that on chance. You meet those cases.

I suggest that the Minister should compel the lessor to clear the title. Even then I cannot see any gentleman collecting any great percentage. I think the amount we have stated here would be wrong because, as I said, if the Minister fixes the 15 years purchase, then in the case of the £1,800, what is the percentage going to be which that tenant would have to pay on purchase? These are the things that occur to me and I would like the Minister to clear them up.

Mr. O'Leary

It appears that the purchasing tenant has a lot of unilateral action on his own. I should like to know if it is proposed, by way of regulation or otherwise, to specify particular fees for legal costs in regard to any action necessary under this section. Is it contemplated leaving the already well-exploited tenant to the tender mercies of the law in this sphere? We maintain also—Deputy Corry raised this point—that the person with the superior ownership in the land should bear the greater part of the cost.

I find the amendment very tempting indeed and, as Minister for Justice, I am often in the dock as being opposed to solicitors' interests and costs generally. At the same time, I think Deputy O'Higgins's amendment, although I am sympathetic to the principle involved, is not practicable. As he is well aware, matters of title vary considerably. A very small property could require very detailed and difficult investigation from the point of view of title and it would, therefore, be unwise to put any arbitrary figure of six, seven or eight per cent into a Bill of this kind.

All the thinking behind the Bill has been directed towards reducing expenses to a minimum. That is a matter for which I have been criticised by certain people in the legal profession. If you take section 9 with sections 17 and 19, which make provision for the hearing before the county registrar and provide for the costs of arbitration, you will see that, under section 9, costs are limited to reasonable costs and expenses actually and necessarily incurred; under section 17 and 19 the registrar has power to award costs against any party who has been unreasonable. We could hardly go further in matters in which substantial questions of title are involved.

We are providing for expeditious hearing before the county registrar, thereby dispensing with the whole panoply of court procedure and giving the registrar global powers to award costs and expenses. This is an innovation. Hitherto these matters were heard in open court, with solicitor and counsel; we have dispensed with all that. The purpose of sections 9, 17 and 19 is to provide for simple hearings at which the lessee can purchase the fee simple. While I am sympathetic to what Deputy O'Higgins has in mind, there are, I think, very real practical difficulties in putting in an arbitrary percentage figure having regard to the variations that occur.

I appreciate what the Minister has said. It is undoubtedly true that very often the smaller the purchase money, the smaller the consideration, the more difficult the actual conveyancing is likely to be. Very often the reason for that is the kind of case Deputy Corry mentioned. In small cases in which there does not seem to be anything of great value involved, people very often just do not bother getting the title in order. I appreciate what the Minister has said with regard to the form of my amendment and, although I moved it, I am not entirely sure that it would meet the objections likely to arise under this section.

Here it is a question of balancing the equities. You have the landlord on the one hand, who probably has no desire to sell his rent, and I can appreciate the argument which asks why, in that case, should the Legislature not only force him to sell out his ground rent, or the fee simple, to the purchasing tenant but should also require him to bear some portion of the cost of doing that; on the other hand, you have the case of the tenant who, in most cases, will certainly be very much less well off than the owner but who has a desire, which is being recognised in this Bill, to own his own home and to own it fully.

Purchasers in title have probably paid the landlord down the years very considerable sums by way of ground rent and if a situation arises in which the legal costs and actual expenses, other than the legal costs incurred by him in acquiring the fee simple, will be out of all proportion to the benefit he is acquiring then from the practical point of view, he will not be in a position to acquire his house. I am not sure whether the solution might not be in some kind of declaratory title in such cases which would enable the purchaser to get a title over which the Land Registry, or someone else, would stand without, at the same time, going into all the legal formalities of acquiring the title. Possibly the Minister could look at it from that point of view.

Mr. O'Leary

There is nothing like a little bit of old-fashioned socialism in matters like this. Our attitude is that it is time the ground landlords holding superior rights over city and urban land should be salted, and well salted, and we do not see why a purchasing tenant should bear a great part of the legal expenses involved in winning for himself rights to the land on which his house is built. We find it very simple to balance our equities. They come down heavily on the side of the purchasing tenant.

On section 17, the section may appear to say that the county registrar can arbitrate and worry out costs but you cannot leave out of account the fact that a great deal of extra business will be sent into the legal sphere when this Act comes into operation and it seems to me the county registrar will not be fulfilling the kind of job we would hope he would, namely, to arbitrate on costs, if he does not in fact interfere in the actual legal fees customarily charged in this particular type of business. We are here tempting a purchasing tenant to acquire the fee simple of the land on which his house is built. This particular type of man does not normally take part in this kind of legal investigation into title and so forth and he must, therefore, be protected in his attempts to gain the fee simple of his house. The ground landlords have had a field day over the past and we certainly do not make any apologies to anyone in coming down in our equities on the side of the purchasing tenant.

I should like the Minister to ensure at least that the costs of acquiring the title will be borne by the landlord.

Mr. O'Leary

That is right.

I do not think that is too much to ask. I should also like to draw his attention to what happens. The Minister referred to other sections of the Bill. What happens where the registrar or the office of the registrar also acts as the landlord's agent? Who arbitrates then?

Mr. O'Leary

It seems to me you are putting the registrar into the position of being a Solomon. He will have to decide so many things that I feel he will end up by not deciding anything at all. We have seen many developments held up in Dublin and elsewhere and many ordinary people have been exploited—it is no harm to mention the word—by ground landlords on very flimsy title indeed. If by legislation we come to the aid of purchasing tenants who have been carrying the burden over the years and give them this minimum help to acquire their ground rents, we must also give them financial help. Our equities should come down squarely in favour of the purchasing tenants. Unless the Minister can reassure me, it appears to me the purchasing tenant is in for another via dolorosa in attempting to get his rights under the Bill. The ground landlord can still hide behind his title and make it extremely difficult for the tenant to get the fee simple. Without actual regulations from the Minister and with so many duties to be performed by the registrar it appears to me that so far as the purchasing tenant is concerned this Bill will become a dead letter because it will be beyond the financial horizons of most purchasing tenants to get their rights.

To recall Deputy O'Leary's phrase about old-fashioned socialism, this particular measure is going further than what was recommended by the Socialist Government in Britain. What that particular Government are prepared to undertake in regard to leasehold reform falls short of the radical nature of this measure. My main concern with this measure— and the reason for the delay in its introduction—was to ensure that it was in accordance with the Constitution, which lays down basic private property rights. I do not want to pilot a Bill through the House and find it torpedoed in the Supreme Court within a few months. We went as far as we could in this measure to provide rights for the tenant to purchase both in respect of business and residential premises. We have gone further than what was recommended by the Commission established under a previous Minister, but we had to stop short— and rightly so—of confiscation.

We are providing a system whereby the landlord is to be compensated so that he or she can re-invest the compensation moneys in the current national loan; that is what we can and should do to compensate them. It is only reasonable that the landlord against whom the application is being made should not be burdened by having his or her purchase money diminished further by paying costs in respect of clearing title. This would lead us into the confiscation field. It is an elementary principle of law under any code that the moving party, the benefiting party, pays the costs. There is nothing unreasonable about that.

I would envisage that what the Deputies are concerned about here is largely an academic matter. In 95 per cent of the cases, this is going to be a simple form of transaction. The tenant writes to the landlord and tells him he wants to purchase his freehold interest at the rate set out here. The landlord has no say in the matter. If he disputes the tenant's right, he is being unreasonable under sections 17 to 19 and he will have costs awarded against him by the registrar. He will see that the game is up once the tenant writes and he will reply "yes". It is normally going to be a matter of exchanging letters and a simple transfer.

That is all right when the title is clear.

That will be so in 95 per cent of the cases. Let us be practical about it. The case of the difficult title is something you cannot get over. You cannot have the landlord burdened by the clearance of the difficult title to the extent of diminishing his right to compensation; otherwise you bring in the principle of confiscation. I think the elementary system we have adopted here, the simple system embodied in section 9 and sections 17 to 19, providing for arbitration by the county registrar—this is an innovation in the way of expeditious arbitration in matters of this kind—is as far as we can go. We have come very far in bringing in this innovation. I fail to see how we can go further, although I have every sympathy with the spirit of the amendment.

This arises from the amendment, although it is not in the amendment itself. Would the Minister explore further the suggestion that these difficult cases might be dealt with in some way by a declaratory title either from the court or the registrar? Notwithstanding what Deputy O'Leary has urged, I agree you cannot deal with this on a confiscation basis. I also agree that a great number of cases will be simple, where there is no question of difficulty about the title and nothing to be cleared. I do not think those cases will create any problem. But there is going to be a residue of difficult cases where there will be expense on someone to clear the title, if the title has to be cleared in accordance with section 6.

The Minister and the Parliamentary Secretary will both know from practical experience that you have, for example, the system of equities in the Land Registry. Where there is a note as to equities, what the Land Registry are saying in effect is: "We have investigated the title fully. It appears to us on the face of it that this title is all right, but as a safeguard, it is registered subject to a note as to equities." Generally, in many rural areas, equities are never discharged. They go from one owner to another. Eventually a position is arrived at where it is quite a simple operation to discharge the equities. The person or his predecessor is there so long that the equities have lost any meaning attached to them.

What I have in mind is that, either through a declaration from the county registrar or the court, you could get some similar type of operation without having any kind of equity. In other words, get a simple declaration that by agreement between the landlord and the purchasing tenant, the purchasing tenant has paid so much under this Act and that by virtue of the operation of the Act, the purchasing tenant is now deemed to be the owner in fee simple of his particular plot, free from incumbrances.

I shall have a look at that. There may be something in it.

Suppose the tenant stops paying until the title is proved? That would be my advice, too. That would bring the matter to a head much sooner.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Section 9 agreed to.
SECTION 10.
Question proposed: "That section 10 stand part of the Bill."

I agree with this section. It seems to contain a recognition of the fact that there will be difficult cases.

Question put and agreed to.
SECTION 11.

I move amendment No. 17:

In subsection (1), page 8, line 10, to delete "payable" and to substitute "being paid".

This is a drafting amendment.

Amendment agreed to.
Question proposed: "That section 11, as amended, stand part of the Bill".

Section 11 deals generally with rights to apportionments of rents, and subsection (3) (c) provides:

the estimated additional cost (if any), attributable to the apportionment, of collecting the apportioned rents shall be determined at the time of the apportionment and shall be included in the apportioned rent payable by the person by whom the notice under section 12 of this Act relating to the lease was served.

There is just one point with which I should like the Minister to deal a little more fully. If an apportionment takes place, it does not matter which tenant is the instigator of the move and, in fact, all the tenants will benefit by reason of the apportionment. It seems to be a bit hard that the tenant who initiates the move should have to pay the additional costs and that it would be fair to provide, at least in a case where there is agreement between the tenants that there should be an apportionment, that the additional costs should be divided among the paying tenants. The amount would be so small as to be of no consequence at all. In any event, on the face of it, it seems to me that it would be more equitable for all the parties receiving the benefit to divide the additional costs between them. I do not know whether the Minister feels there is anything in this point which occurs to me in relation to this subsection.

It is a point of view, but there is the other point of view that the person who disturbs the status quo, the moving party, should bear the additional burden. If there are people involved who are not seeking any right and who feel they are gaining nothing, it would seem more equitable from their point of view that the moving party should bear the burden. I can see the Deputy's point, but, on balance, I would be against it.

The same point arises in section 15.

Question put and agreed to.
Sections 12 to 14, inclusive, agreed to.
SECTION 15
Question proposed: "That section 15 stand part of the Bill".

The point I made in regard to subsection (3) of section 11 applies similarly to the procedure set out in section 15. If the Minister is looking at it in relation to one, he might have a look at it in relation to the other.

Yes; it is the same principle but there is for and against it.

Mr. O'Leary

It is the mover.

On balance, I think it is fair.

Question put and agreed to.
Section 16 agreed to.
NEW SECTION.

Perhaps the House would take amendments Nos. 18 and 19 together as they seem to be related.

I move amendment No. 18:

Before section 17 to insert a new section as follows:—

"Where any ground rent is over £25 per annum the leaseholder shall, if he considers that this rent is exorbitant, have the right to have the question determined by arbitration and the purchase price shall be based on the arbitration decision."

In moving this amendment, I have in mind the position in regard to the town of Cobh in particular. I do not think any purchase arranged after the manner in which these rents were arrived at would be just. One rent was increased from £17 a year to £177 a year, covering a block of tenants. In another case a rent of £12 10s was fixed on a site. The man expended £12,000 in buildings on that site and then when the lease fell in, it was fixed at £1,800, from £12 10s. Those cases are very common in the town of Cobh. The arbitrator whom we got after the fight in 1933 and 1934 reduced those rents by an average of 33? per cent, which shows what the arbitrator thought of the manner in which rents were fixed. Afterwards, when the leases fell in, these gentlemen took advantage of the kind of mixum-gatherum law we have in this country in regard to ground rents and leases, to go back and fix the old rents.

Now when we are clearing the decks, there should be an arbitration or an appeal at which fair rents would be fixed just as they were fixed on land. After 15 years on land, you were entitled to go into a judicial court and get a fair rent fixed. In this case the selfsame programme should be adopted and before a man purchases, he should have an opportunity of going into a fair rent court, before an arbitrator, and having a fair rent fixed, and not let those scoundrels get away with what should amount to common wholesale robbery. It is essential that these people should have a clearance court in which they could have a fair rent fixed and proceed on the basis of that fixed rent.

I wish briefly to support my colleague, Deputy Corry, in his amendments and in his appeal to have this new section inserted. In Cobh and in many other towns in south Cork, existing rents are completely exorbitant. What we are setting out to do in this Bill is to remove many of the anomalies and injustices in previous legislation. We do not want here that justice should appear to be done but we want it done, and if we want justice to be done, the Minister must realise that some of these existing rents are so brutally high that a determination to have them cut down is of urgent necessity.

I assure the Deputies that the whole question of landlord and tenant law, outside the scope of this Bill, is having our attention. Last year we established a small commission of people who know the situation expertly and I have asked them to recommend, as a matter of urgency, reforms in landlord and tenant law generally. I expect their report in a matter of months. The proposals of Deputies Corry and Barry are outside the scope of this measure, which is concerned primarily with the purchase of ground rents and the machinery attaching thereto. The wide question of landlord and tenant relationship, rents and the nature of leaseholds, is a matter on which I hope to have legislation before the House inside 12 months. I am concerned about getting an urgent report from the commission about practical steps in this direction. Whatever may be said for the amendments and for what Deputies Corry and Barry have said, this matter has been receiving my attention.

How soon will this legislation be before us?

Within 12 months.

Does the Minister not think, then, that bringing this Bill before the House now is putting the cart before the horse?

It is a very large question. We have done right in bringing this Bill in first.

On another section the Minister alluded to another court outside the registrar.

There is an appeal to the Circuit Court from the county registrar.

Could this appeal not exist in this legislation?

It does. The Deputy is raising very fundamental matters on these amendments. The principle behind his amendments is being considered and, as I have said, I am concerned to have legislation on these matters within the next 12 months.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Amendment No. 17 not moved.
NEW SECTIONS.

I move amendment No. 20:

Before section 17 to insert a new section as follows:—

"Amounts paid in ground rent in respect of houses built since 1st January, 1946, shall be taken into account in the assessment of freehold purchase prices."

I was impelled to put down this amendment because I felt this Bill would not be in the House at all were it not for the tremendous building development which occurred in the country, particularly around the perimeter of Dublin, since the last war. While there is always in existence a group or organisation agitating for the abolition of ground rents as such in urban and municipal areas, they never seemed to get very far until recent years.

This has been due to the fact that following the war and the tremendous housing drive organised by the inter-Party Government under the leadership of the late Deputy Tim Murphy, we had unprecedented development in house building, around Dublin particularly, under the Small Dwellings (Acquisition) Acts. Only then did the question of ground rents become a burning political issue, one which forced itself on the attention of the major political Parties. It was always, of course, the concern of the Labour Party. It forced itself as an electoral issue on the major political Parties because there were so many people who suddenly became payers of ground rents who did not know such a thing as a ground rent existed.

When one thinks of the 11,000 or 12,000 such tenants who came into existence in the post-war building boom who became aware of ground rents as such, one can easily see why this matter became one of concern to political Parties and eventually to the Government who are now in the process of doing something about it. To get to the point of the amendment, it seems to me that builders and developers who bought land, particularly in the immediate post-war years and indeed every year since, did so on a speculative basis, as they were entitled to do. In all instances, the prices paid for this land were very inflated and there was no real method of determining that such prices were in equity. These prices were left, in the much lauded law of supply and demand which is, in effect, the law of the jungle, to find their own levels. The result was that there was speculation in land.

Ground rents came into existence immediately after the war in respect of the type of house to which I am referring—the type built mainly under the provisions of SDA. These ground rents bore no relation to ground rents as they were known prior to the war and in the early years of the century. Indeed ground rents became a commodity for sale in high financial circles. They became as valuable as property itself, despite the fact that most enlightened people today, like the Labour Party, accepted that there was no moral authority whatever for them.

Nevertheless, ground rents began to be regarded almost as sacrosanct and as important as the very earth itself. As such they were treated, sold, exchanged and bought by certain financial organisations—for instance, insurance companies—as if they were gilt-edged securities. There was speculation in this and ground rents became part of the means whereby profits were amassed by people who spin not, neither do they weave.

The people who were footing the Bill at the end of it all were the ordinary people who had saved up money to put down deposits in order to get SDA loans to get into houses— usually newly-married couples and young people about to be married, people with very long periods of loan repayments ahead. As well, they have been facing, ever since, annual demands for grossly inflated ground rents when in fact they should not have been asked to pay any because if right were right, which it seldom is, ground rents would have been abolished long ago.

What I want to secure by this amendment is that such people— tenants of existing houses which have been built since the war, and I put down 1946 as a notional year—will get the consideration they deserve. They are paying ground rents which bear no relation at all to the justice of the case and there is no consideration for all the years which have passed when thousands of them have paid substantial increases already in their ground rents.

The Bill proposes that those people should be extended the opportunity to purchase the fee simple in the little plot of land on which their houses stand but they have no rights other than to require the ground landlord to sell them the fee simple for the amount of money which must be paid to the ground landlord, or which must be made available to him. This has been estimated as equivalent to a set number of years purchase. This would mean that such a tenant would be placed in financial difficulties in order to find a lump sum of £150 to purchase the fee simple plot. Very often those tenants have young families nowadays or their families may have grown up but they still have financial difficulties.

It is not right that those people should be treated in this way. Some account must be taken of the amount which they have already paid by way of ground rents in the years in which they have been in occupation of their particular houses. If I had my way, I would say that people who have paid the equivalent of £150 should, in fact, be given the fee simple without the payment of any additional money. It is impossible from the direction of the discussion in this House to get that principle accepted and one has to temporise and get the best one can for those tenants.

I would like to ask the Minister to do what he can in this direction and see that some steps are taken to provide machinery whereby the money already paid by such people over the years is taken into consideration. Those people are the victims of a situation for which they have no responsibility. They are young people who sacrificed the small luxuries of life to save money in order to get a deposit for their houses. They had to undergo rigorous financial tests—even, one might say, securing character references—in order to get loans for their houses. Since they have occupied those houses in the various areas such as Walkinstown, Perrystown and various estates in the south suburbs and also in the north suburbs, such as Santry, and indeed Lucan, and various other parts of the city, they have been undergoing considerable hardship down through the years by virtue of the fact that they have been forced to pay those unjust ground rents.

We are bringing in a Bill to deal with ground rents. It is very probable, unless certain things happen of a very radical nature in this country, that we may not have the opportunity of doing much again about ground rents for many years to come. Therefore, it behoves us to do what we can to secure the maximum amount of justice for the people involved. We would not be doing justice to those people without giving them some credit, and without affording them some allowance, for the amount of money they have already paid by way of ground rents. We should provide in this Bill that where such existing tenants paying ground rents wish to purchase the fee simple of the plot of land on which their houses stand and set about so doing, there should be, in the determination of the amount which they must pay, an allowance in respect of the amount they have already paid during their occupation of those houses since the war.

It may be asked why this year of 1946 is brought in. I have tried to explain that I believe those are a very special grade of people. If it were not for those people, we would not be discussing this ground rents Bill at all. Influential people tried to do something about ground rents before this. The late Captain Redmond was one of the people working on this and he was the only one mentioned in the Report of the Ground Rents Commission. There were possibly one or two others. There were certainly influential forces and enthusiastic forces at work but nothing was done because ground rents did not seem to bear very heavily on the votes, to put it brutally, up to recent years. The number of people who have been paying ground rents has been multiplying in recent years. It is a brutal fact but unless some issue has an influence on the electorate, nothing will be done about it. It all depends on how many votes are affected.

This matter affects a great many votes. We in the Labour Party have been concerned about this as a principle long before anybody was talking about it. James Connolly wrote a lot about ground rents and about the inequity of ground rents. He traced the very origin of ground rents to the conquest of this country—I hate to use that word because it is almost treasonable to use it now—by the foreigner. Here we are, as I say, with the chance to do justice for a section of our people. They are the very best section of our people. They are young people who worked hard and saved hard. Most of them saved from nothing. They saved money to pay a deposit in order to get a loan to purchase their homes. They have been repaying the Small Dwellings Act loans over the years and it has been no small effort to do so.

Those people have maintained a very high social standard in those areas. I mean by that that they have kept their houses in a very good state of maintenance. They have kept their gardens in admirable condition. The general level and appearance of those areas is excellent. Those people are the very best in our society. We are now giving them the opportunity to purchase the fee simple. This is not enough. We must do something more. We must give them the benefit, at least in the purchase price which they may pay for the fee simple, of the amount they have already paid for what one may describe as a penal tax.

This is one of the most burning questions in County Dublin and in the city of Dublin and I suppose also in Deputy Corry's area. I am glad he is here.

If it has anything to do with Dublin, it cannot be right, according to Tony Hancock here.

I will tell you what you can do with Dublin.

As Deputy Dunne stated, we have a big number of people buying their own homes in County Dublin and in the city of Dublin. I know that a number of them are most anxious to purchase their ground rents. I just want to make the point to the Minister that many of them may not be in a position to make the purchase, even on the basis of the amendment. I wonder if the financial position improves whether there will be any possibility of creating a fund to help such tenants as are purchasing their homes by various means such as SDA building loans, insurance companies and building societies. If such people were anxious to purchase their ground rent, it could be purchased over a period.

On a point of order, Sir, and to help the Deputy, I would draw attention to the fact that my next amendment disposes of that.

I have just come into the House and I want to make this point.

Deputy Burke was in first, anyway.

I bow to Deputy S. Dunne and I do not want to steal his thunder because he would not do a thing like that to me. I just want to make the point that if times improve, and they are improving, thanks be to God——

Of course they are.

——in order to help a number of my constituents in the county of Dublin——

Where else would the Deputy's constituents be?

——there should be some encouragement to get a loan at a certain rate of interest. I shall leave that matter for the Minister's reply because I feel he will be most helpful.

What Deputy Burke is saying is not relevant to this amendment, and I think he should leave it.

Thank you for your courtesy. I have made my point.

Thanks very much.

We shall deal with Deputy Burke's point on the next amendment. Arising out of Deputy Dunne's point, which relates to giving credit in respect of ground rent paid since 1946, I should like to make my position quite clear in regard to this Bill. The whole object of the Bill is to give tenants this new right which they had not heretofore. As Deputy Dunne pointed out, it is a right that has been fought for by them over a period of years and he has played a part in that particular fight, it is acknowledged. But I must bear in mind a document which is often dear to Deputy Dunne's heart, that is, the Constitution and the rights guaranteed therein. I see no point in bringing a Bill through the Houses of the Oireachtas and, as I said earlier, having it torpedoed subsequently in the Supreme Court. That would be a waste of everybody's time. It would not serve the interests of tenants, and their interests, I take it, are the concern of all of us on all sides of the House.

I have no doubt that the way in which the Supreme Court would look at any measure of this kind is: is the landlord being compensated to a degree that would give him the same income as he had before being compulsorily bought out? That is a practical rule of thumb which I feel would be followed by the Supreme Court. Therefore, it has been my concern in providing this new right of the tenant, in giving him this absolute right which he can enforce, to ensure that in the process no element of confiscation shall arise.

I shall not argue the pros and cons of the landlord's interests but I am concerned with having this measure preserved as the statute law of this country. My concern is that, whatever the rights or wrongs of the matter, we should not in any way impinge on the basic principle of fair compensation where there is compulsory purchase. I am certain that if we brought in any amendment which would give landlords a lower income than they had previously, this measure would be defeated in the Supreme Court on the basis of interference with the constitutional guarantees relating to the rights of private property. To set off the amount of ground rent already paid in as suggested by Deputy Dunne, would in effect diminish the compensation. The reality is that this would lead to a diminution of the landlord's income and I would not be happy about the Bill if it contained such a provision. I would not be happy about the Bill being challenged by the landlord in the Supreme Court for his compensation in the matter, having regard to the fundamental rights in our Constitution relating to property.

If that is the only fear the Minister has in regard to this amendment, and the only objection he has, then I think it is so important that there is an obvious way around it. It may very well be that the principle of the Bill itself means that the landlord must be paid, must receive an income equivalent to that which he now receives by way of ground rent. That is the underlying principle of the Bill.

That is right.

Nobody wants to be unjust to landlords any more than any other section of the community, particularly in this case where we recognise what has been described in the Commission Report as the pyramid of interest which has evolved in many cases in relation to ground rents. Nobody wants to do anything which will occasion hardship, so to speak. Very often elderly people may be dependent on this kind of income and have no other income. They may be living very penuriously. Nobody wants to harm them and everybody wants to provide such people with an alternative way of living. Herein I think the State can guarantee the principle which it seeks to establish in the Bill, that is, that the landlord shall not be harshly treated by adopting some system similar to that, though on a very much reduced scale, which was adopted in the Land Act which secured the three Fs for the Irish farmer which were secured by Davitt first and Parnell after.

Fintan Lalor.

Fintan Lalor theorised it but Davitt was the man.

Hear, hear—a Mayo man.

They had a way of dealing with what was a colossal problem. One thing about the landlords of that day, while they might be subject to public criticism, I would say they could pull strings very effectively behind the scenes. Means were found to compensate them. One thing the landlords of that day had was power.

Parnell had the balance of power. That was very important.

The balance of power was there with the Land League, without which Parnell would not have been worth a damn. The direct action man who dealt with the landlord was the man who got the Wyndham Act and the whole lot of them on the statute books. We shall take that up again on another occasion. Let us try to take example, unworthy as we are, from the actions of such men. We want to do right by all but it is our duty to seek to do justice first for the greatest number, which is what democracy means: the greatest good for the greatest number. In this case there can be no question that the greatest number are the tenants. I am asking nothing extraordinary for them. I am not asking for any privilege or advantage that any reasonable person would deny them. I am simply asking that they get credit for the amount of money they have already paid.

The Minister quotes the danger of the Bill being torpedoed by being declared unconstitutional by the courts. That could be, but with sufficient good intentions being brought in with the Bill, that could be overcome by the institution of some system of funds which, it may well be, would require to be supplied by the Exchequer. It may well be that it could even be found, as Deputy Corry has indicated, in the funds of suitors. This is not an insoluble problem, the need of ensuring that the landlords' rights are protected while at the same time doing right by the tenants. This is something that could and should be done.

It is not outside the wit, capacity or intelligence of the present incumbent of office to evolve a scheme whereby all the pyramid of interests at all levels would be preserved and to ensure at the same time that justice would be done to the fellow at the bottom who is paying the whole lot, the tenant. That is a very important matter and I will have to press it on the House.

I have nothing to add to what I have already said on this amendment. My concern is to get through the House and to get working a Bill that will not be declared unconstitutional by the courts. Deputy Dunne and I are of the one mind. We are both concerned to give tenants as much as possible but I want a Bill that will stand up and will not be upset by the courts. I am going as far as I can in ease of the tenants, consistent with the rights of everybody.

Amendment put and declared lost.

I did not want to put the House to the trouble of dividing because I knew that the amendment would be defeated. I accept that under protest.

I move amendment No. 21:

Before section 17 to insert a new section as follows:—

"The purchase price of a freehold may be paid in equal annual instalments over such period of years as may be prescribed by regulations made by the Minister."

This is a very simple amendment. It is simply to make provision to the effect that in the case where a tenant is purchasing the fee simple, he should be enabled to do so by instalments. The amount generally mentioned in connection with the purchase of the fee simple I have in mind is about £150. That is a very large amount of money, especially in the times in which we live. The kind of family of which I am thinking who would be anxious to purchase this fee simple, either as an investment for the future or to get rid of the anachronism of ground rents once and for all, is the family already facing sufficient economic and financial problems without having to find so large a sum.

Where would they get it? Very few would have it laid by for a rainy day and it would be a pretty poor umbrella even in a gentle summer shower. I would not think there would be many who would have it where they could lay their hands on it readily. Some provision should be made for such people. If they go to the bank manager for a loan of £150 to purchase the fee simple of their property, I know the reception they will get. I know the reception anybody gets from bank managers these days, even if you have collateral far in excess of the amount sought. I do not see any evidence of the relaxation of credit restrictions or any increase in prosperity. The banks are just as difficult as they have been for the past 12 months. They are as tight as a drum and, of course, there is a bank strike and nobody can get money at the moment.

That is probably a good thing.

Bank strikes are like all other strikes: they are like the road to hell, paved with good intentions, paved with rubber flooring which leads to all kinds of difficulties. That is why it is well to eschew all such things. The kind of tenant I am thinking of, even when the banks are open and doing business, would not find it possible to get the money very easily, even with collateral in excess of what he is looking for. This kind of person, the best we have in the community, should be helped to the extent that there should be a provision whereby he will be enabled to purchase his ground rent by instalments over a number of years. I do not think this could possibly affect the principle of the Bill. It may need a bit of thought as to the mechanics of it but, again, it is not a very big obstacle and one which should and can be overcome if we but try.

This is one time I am pulling my weight with my colleague from County Dublin. I can see here a big difficulty for a number of young people who are purchasing their own homes: they will not be able to avail of this very good Bill for which we have been agitating for a number of years. Since I spoke last, I have been thinking of insurance companies. Perhaps the Minister may possibly be able to suggest to some of these companies that they might adjust their insurance as to cover the man mentioned by Deputy Dunne in respect of the £150 because if that could be done, it would make it possible—I shall not suggest how it could be done but an insurance company might do it—for people with life assurance to get a loan. People who have not got an insurance of any kind may be able to get themselves insured in that amount over a period. I am sure—taking into account the age in which we are living—that a number of such companies would adjust their rules to cover a position of this kind. If they did, it would, in my estimation, be responsible for meeting that part of the Bill about which we are most anxious, that is, to give everybody purchasing their own homes a chance of purchasing their ground rent.

This is a most important matter because I know a number of people with young families who are finding it hard to pay their SDA loans, to pay for furniture and to pay rates, without the added burden of getting the money to buy out their ground rents; on reconsideration, I realise that the fund about which I have spoken would need to be colossal to serve the whole country, even taking in Deputy Corry's area. I feel sure an insurance company would provide that accommodation for a tenant who wishes to purchase his ground rent, provided he is not 70 years of age or over. That is a matter with which the companies could deal. I would suggest to the Minister that if it were possible for him to say a kindly word—he is a courteous man himself—to insurance companies suggesting that they consider this matter, it would be of tremendous help because I believe it is very important for all our people.

I do not want to say a lot on this amendment. I sympathise very much with the spirit behind it and with any spirit respecting the principle of the amendment but I feel it is not one which could work in relation to very many of the types of ground rents which must fall to be dealt with under this Bill. Deputy Dunne mentioned, in his remarks on the previous amendment, that in relation to a lot of the ground rents, large bodies would be the owners. Possibly, in these kinds of cases, a system of payment by instalments might operate but we have to look at the other side as well. There are very many individuals who have invested their money and whose sole means of subsistence at the moment is the income which they derive from two, three or, possibly, half a dozen ground rents throughout the country. The principle behind this Bill is that they will be compensated when they have to part with their source of income; they will be compensated so that they can get a purchase money which they, in turn, can invest and derive their income from the investment. If these people are to be in a position of having to accept the purchase price by instalments, it completely destroys their chance of having a fund which they, in turn, could invest in order to continue their income.

That is the difficulty I see in the operation of an amendment like this. The idea is a very appealing and attractive one in many ways but I do not think it could work, if we are to see equal justice done to both sides. As far as the large majority of ground rent payers are concerned, I should imagine the position is that very many of them have purchased, by means of assistance, either from building societies or from the local authority under the Small Dwellings Acquisition Act. I do not know what action can be taken in the local authority. If members of local authorities, with the co-operation of the Minister responsible, could provide that local authorities will give an additional loan in cases where there are ground rents, to enable them to be tagged on to the existing mortgage, it would enable the tenant who has purchased under an SDA loan to purchase out and there would not be any hardship. They would, in effect, be purchasing by instalment because the amount of the additional advance would then be paid by instalments, together with the loan already there. It would not be very great in those cases because, so far as Dublin County Council is concerned—and I think the same probably applies to other local authorities— there would be a limit on the amount of ground rents in respect of which advances would be made. They would not deal with cases where the ground rent was more than £10, so that in normal cases the additional advance required to purchase out these ground rents in Small Dwellings Acquisition Act cases would not be very large.

I would imagine that in the other type of case, where a person has a loan from a building society and has given a mortgage as security, there would not be any great difficulty. There might be a bit of difficulty in the present general economic situation but, in normal times, I do not think there would be any great difficulty in getting an additional advance from the building society for the purpose of buying out the ground rent because, from the building societies' point of view, their security is very much enhanced; instead of having a mortgage on a leasehold premises, they then have a mortgage on the fee simple. So far as this amendment is concerned, I would recommend that it be looked at so far as local authorities are concerned, under the Small Dwellings Acquisition Act, by members of local authorities and the responsible Minister to provide machinery so that an additional advance can be made to purchase out ground rent.

There has been delay in doing justice as far as the town tenants of this country are concerned. When I first dealt with this matter here on 12th July, 1932, we had the distinction that day also of obtaining our freedom, for it was on that day in this House we abolished the oath to the King of England. However, this is 34 years afterwards. Since then, a new class of ground rent landlords have come up, due largely to employment and a bit of prosperity, that is, a man built his own house or had his own house built for him and, by loans or, in some cases, with his own money, purchased that house but had not sufficient money to meet the demands of the builder or the owner of the house and accepted a ground rent clapped on to fill in the balance. They are an entirely different class—I do not think they can be covered by the one Bill—from the ground landlords who got their land as a grant from a British Queen or a British King and who have been drawing an income from that ground ever since.

Deputy Burke suggested the insurance companies could help in this regard. I challenge any member of this House to name one insurance company or one bank that is not a ground landlord. The problem was simple if it had been dealt with in 1932 or in the years that followed, because we were dealing then with the grabber and no one had too much mercy on or sympathy for him. Now we are dealing with an entirely different class, as I shall be explaining on the amendments I have tabled. Unfortunately we cannot fall back on the refuge suggested by Deputy Burke, for both the insurance companies and the building societies are the ground landlords of today, so far as 1946 onwards is concerned.

(Dublin): I have sympathy with the group of people Deputy Dunne spoke of, those who have been buying a house over the past twenty years. There would be very little hope of those people finding £150 to purchase out their ground rent. I cannot see any reason why it could not be paid in instalments, say, over a period of three or four years, even if we had to charge interest or allow the landlord to charge interest. This would give such tenants some hope of purchasing out the ground rent.

Arising out of what Deputy O'Higgins had to say, would the Minister consider including a provision in the Bill, even at this stage— it is a bit late, I know—to enable local authorities to make money available not alone by way of loan for the house itself but for the purchase of the fee simple as well? Would this be possible?

The idea of providing for a scheme of paying the purchase price in instalments would, as Deputy O'Higgins said, be prejudicial to the landlord; in other words, he would not get the lump sum to which he is entitled to compensate him for his loss of freehold. However, that is separate from the issue of providing some sort of loan scheme whereby the tenant could obtain a loan from some other source, an insurance company, the State or a local authority. I am aware that insurance companies are looking into this matter already and that one has actually prepared a scheme to provide loans for ground rent tenants. We must look at this thing realistically. If the State steps in, it becomes a social service. If it is done adequately by private sources such as insurance companies or building societies in the months and years ahead, there will be very little reason for the State to step in. I appreciate the spirit of the amendment, but I would prefer to see the Bill in operation. If it is considered necessary, as a matter of a social service, that we should, either directly through the Department of Local Government or through the local authorities, as Deputy O'Higgins suggested, have such a scheme, we can have a look at it in that light in the future.

The one argument I would put to the Minister which is above all others so far as making provision through the local authorities is concerned is that a local authority, if it were in a position to do so, would make moneys available at a minimum rate of interest.

That is a point.

And it would be serviced at cost. That is a different proposition from an insurance company.

I can see that.

The purchaser would have to pay much more to the insurance company for the loan.

I think it would be unwise to do anything about this until we see the Act in operation for a year or two.

We can reasonably anticipate the situation. Most people would find it difficult to get that money.

It would probably be more appropriate to consider this in relation to the Small Dwellings Acquisition Acts rather than deal with it under this Bill.

It would probably be more relevant under the SDA Acts.

Is the amendment withdrawn?

In the circumstances. I shall put down an amendment to try to get legislation in another form.

If the Deputy feels it would be more appropriate.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
SECTION 17.

I move amendment No. 22:

In subsection (1), page 10, line 8, after "apply" to insert "personally or through his solicitor".

I put down this amendment just to clarify the position. It may be the intention under section 17 that a person is entitled to have the assistance of a solicitor in the application. I am not entirely happy about the wording. All I want is to ask the Minister to look at it. There may be precedents in other Acts which cover it but, taking this simpliciter, on its own, it would seem that it must be a personal application. Many people would feel that they would not be competent to do justice to their own case without legal assistance.

From the point of view of what the Deputy is seeking to achieve, it might be dangerous to start inserting "through a solicitor". It might be implied in any case where that is not mentioned that a solicitor may not appear.

I take it that if the point is raised in the reverse at any stage, the Minister will give an undertaking to amend it as may be necessary?

I will, indeed. I would not read it as being implicit in it.

I am happy with that.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

I move amendment No. 23:

In subsection (1), page 10, line 11, to delete "may" and substitute "shall".

This amendment is to make the county registrar's duty to make an award under the section mandatory rather than discretionary as it seems to be at the moment.

We will do that. That is valid. I accept the amendment.

Amendment agreed to.
Question proposed: "That section 17, as amended, stand part of the Bill".

I do not know whether the Ceann Comhairle was in the Chair at the time when we had a discussion on an amendment of mine on section 6 which it was agreed was really more relevant to section 17. I do not want to repeat anything I said in connection with that amendment. By reason, so to speak, of adjourning the consideration of it, I overlooked making a point on section 6 and I would ask the Minister to bear with me for a moment in connection with it.

Section 6 is the section which requires the owner to complete a conveyance without unreasonable delay, to take all necessary steps to effect a conveyance to the tenant purchaser when he is served with a notice. Section 17 then goes on to lay down the procedure in a case of difficulty or dispute—that it will be dealt with by the county registrar. There was one point made to me that I want to put before the Minister for consideration: in a number of cases there are what I would regard as a kind of small-time owners of ground rents. I am not talking of large concerns who in one way and another have acquired ground rents in the course of their business and who make it a business to acquire them, but the small-time owner who is depending on a few ground rents for his income. That kind of person might be in difficulty if he has to sell his ground rents at virtually a moment's notice and the case was urged on me that it would be reasonable that the owner should be given, say, two or three months' notice of the tenant's intention to acquire the ground rent. I am raising this on section 17 because it is the machinery section in cases of any question or difficulty arising.

What has been put to me is that it is a question of practical difficulty, or may be a question of practical difficulty, in the case of these small-time owners of ground rents if they are required to sell immediately without being given an opportunity of thinking out what they will do by way of alternative investment when they get the purchase money. I do not know whether it would in any serious way impinge on the machinery set down in the Bill if the Minister were to write into it in some place that if it creates hardship on the owner, he will be entitled to a certain number of months period of grace, so to speak, after service of the notice. I should like the Minister to consider that. I do appreciate that, in a number of cases, probably by the time the transaction is finished, a certain period of time will have elapsed.

I will look at that. I think the word "unreasonable" in section 6 may cover it. That would not be an unreasonable delay.

It might not. I felt there was merit in the point when it was put to me and I thought I should mention it.

I will look at it.

Question put and agreed to.
SECTION 18.

I move amendment No. 24:

In paragraph (a), page 10, lines 50 and 51, to delete "of whose term less than twenty-five years were unexpired at" and to substitute "which will expire less than twenty-five years after".

Amendments Nos. 24 and 25 may be discussed together.

Amendments Nos. 24 and 25 are both drafting amendments. They make the drafting more explicit. That is really what is involved—nothing more than that.

Amendment agreed to.

I move amendment No. 25:

In paragraph (b), page 11, lines 27 to 29, to delete "of whose term not less than twenty-five years were unexpired on" and to substitute "which will expire twenty-five years or more after".

Amendment agreed to.

I move amendment No. 26:

In page 11, to delete lines 33 to 44, and substitute:

"the purchase price shall not exceed a sum representing ten years ground rent".

I should like to make it clear, as I said before, that there is a wide difference between the new ground rent landlord and tenant and the old. I wonder if the Minister had any consultation with his brother in arms, the Minister for Local Government, on this when he was considering what he has in the Bill in section 18 about the purchase price. The Minister for Local Government maintains that a ten-year purchase is financially more advantageous to the seller than a 15-year purchase. I would refer the Minister to column 63 of the Official Report of 10th June, 1965, where the Minister for Local Government is reported as saying:

I would say again that the ten-year period with interest has got the edge slightly on the 15-year period.

I do not know how the Minister for Local Government worked that out but on that day I said:

With the utmost amusement, I shall listen to the terms of purchase under the Ground Rents Bill when it is introduced...

This was on the Bill which extended the Cork Borough and which took property from Cork County Council and handed it over to the Corporation. Does the Minister or does this House consider that the ratepayers of Cork County are less entitled to fair compensation for the property taken from them than the scab of a landlord who walked in for nothing and who has been collecting anything from £15,000 to £16,000 a year out of one town ever since? Which has the most right in justice here?

The Minister for Local Government told us that he was following a well-established principle, laid down in the Dublin Act of 1930, followed in Limerick and Waterford, and in the extension of Cork County in 1965. Those were all ten-year periods of purchase. How can the Minister now come along this year to tell us that a foreign landlord with rights established by confiscation is entitled to a higher sum than the ordinary owner of property as we were in regard to rates in Cork County, we ordinary citizens of the county? I do not know how he can justify it and I do not see how he can justify the gentleman who was drawing ground rent of £17 per year and who increased that to £177 per year. How can he justify an unfortunate tenant now having to pay that landlord 15 years purchase on the £177?

I admit that through the efforts of what might be called an illegal organisation we succeeded in getting by arbitration that rent reduced by one-third 34 years ago. To show the difference, those tenants have paid that foreign landlord £183,000 less because of our efforts then. How is the Minister to justify the individual who can take advantage of the fact that he handed over a bit of land on which those men built hotels and shops out of their own pockets and then when the lease fell in, he came and collared, as his predecessor did before him, the whole lot and instead of £17, puts on £177 in one case and in another where the rent was £12 10s puts on £1,080? Under this Bill he gets 15 years purchase and can collect on the £1,080, less one-third which we got off.

What was a simple problem then, 34 years ago, is an entirely different problem today because you have Deputy Burke's widow, the insurance companies and the societies and God-knows-what, all in the swim, not forgetting the gentlemen who are at present on strike, the banks. Within the past 12 months, the Bank of Ireland, with a gentleman named Montgomery of Cork, purchased the town of Midleton on ten years purchase. When we were discussing matters of that kind some time ago, I gave the Minister another case which he could investigate, the case of Barclays Bank of London. They purchased the town of Innishannon at 9½ years purchase. Those two banks were able to pay dividends to their shareholders of 23 per cent and 25 per cent last year and under this legislation they can grab a 50 per cent increase on their purchase price.

Do we know what we are doing? Is there any justice in what we are doing? Those are the facts. The idea of giving a hangman who has been dragging £15,000 or £10,000 a year out of the sweat and blood and toil of the people of the town of Cobh and living in luxury in Britain on the proceeds, a guarantee of 6¾ per cent on his money for evermore is appalling. That is not the kind of legislation envisaged by the men who established this Parliament or by the people who sent us here. This is a wretched matter and I suggest to the Minister that, as I propose in this amendment, he sets a figure of ten years purchase. That is enough to give the beggars and get rid of them.

I am not concerned so much with what the Minister does in the case of the ordinary man who built a housing scheme in the past 20 years and had to accept a ground rent as part of the money because the tenant was unable to pay, but I am very definitely concerned with the town of Midleton and the town of Cobh, and the whole area of Ballycotton and Castlemartyr and also the town of Youghal. If I could encroach on Deputy Barry, I would include the town of Fermoy.

The Deputy may include it also.

We have a problem on our hands, a problem willed to us, I suppose, by this Dáil when they finished with the Compulsory Land Acts which the Constitution did not interfere with at all. We had a Land Act in 1924 and another—all compulsory—in 1936.

There was market compensation under that.

But the compensation was dealt with in an entirely different manner and it did not envisage any gentleman getting sufficient money so that at 6¾ per cent he could get the same return as he was drawing in rent. That sort of situation was never envisaged. Whatever power the banks had, I certainly did not expect to see this brought in here. In my amendment I propose that the maximum be a ten year purchase. I have given examples. If the Minister can give me any justification for the Bank of Ireland, acting through a subsidiary, being enabled by legislation of this House to convert the £50,000 they invested in Midleton into £75,000, he will be telling me something, or as to why Barclays Bank of London who came across here to buy the town of Innishannon outside Bandon at 9½ years purchase will, under this Bill, when enacted, be allowed to collect 14½ years purchase on that. There is no justification for it.

I rise to support Deputy Corry in asking for a ten years purchase period here. I should like to say, also, that I have never belonged to an illegal organisation and I hope I never shall.

Surely you are— over there.

With regard to the problem which Deputy Corry and I have in our constituencies, I honestly believe that injustices appear much more frequently than they do throughout the country generally. What Deputy Corry has said about Cobh is true.

Do you know what an old comrade of mine said? He said there was a good day's shooting left in every parish.

These injustices are still being perpetrated in many of the towns in North-East Cork which is the constituency I have the honour to represent here. This Bill will leave us with some injustices and irregularities if further action is not taken. I can say about Midleton and Youghal what Deputy Corry said about Cobh. The rents there have been increased as much as 300 and 400 per cent in recent years. If the purchase period is 15 years, then I have no doubt that the tenants will still be sacrificed and will still suffer much hardship. To limit the period even to ten years will not do justice to them and will merely go half way towards meeting their case. I am sure the Minister must have read of the agitation in Midleton in the past 12 months.

I met them.

Did they suggest that a 15 years purchase period would be altogether unfair to them?

Their problem is a bit different. It includes other aspects of leasehold reform. As a result of meeting them, I established the Landlord and Tenant Commission which is now sitting and I await its report.

I appreciate the Minister's intervention. The people of Fermoy and Youghal are involved also. Would the Minister not agree, in the cases he knows of in the towns in the south of Ireland, that the 15 years purchase is too high?

No. Fifteen years purchase is not written into the Bill at all. It is the maximum—"shall not exceed".

I suggest that we cease this question and answer procedure.

When the Minister says it is the maximum, we all know that the maximum will be used and he can take it that 15 years will be the period.

The maximum in particular cases.

The Minister should have another look at this. Like Deputy Corry, I think that the ten years period would be fair all round.

There is a misapprehension as to the meaning of section 18. I do not think it has been looked at in its total effect. Deputy Corry mentioned people who come in here and buy an estate at a certain number of years purchase and become the ground landlords. He sought to imply that we are handing these people a profit by guaranteeing them a 15 years purchase: that is not so.

Section 18 applies in any case where the tenant moves to obtain a right which he, the tenant, wants to exercise. In the event of his seeking to purchase the freehold, certain criteria apply which are set out in paragraphs (a) and (b) of section 18. Paragraph (a) gives authority to the county registrar to take various factors into account when settling an equitable purchase price and paragraph (b) deals with particular cases and provides that the landlord should get a maximum compensation which would yield an income equivalent to the ground rent if invested in a national loan. There is nothing in the section to provide that the landlord must get a particular number of years purchase. All this only applies where the tenant is the moving party.

However, in a large number of cases the landlord will be the moving party and the tenant may be unwilling to deal with him or with big institutional investors. There may be 100 tenants on an estate and the landlord may wish to sell the fee simple to all of them. In such cases, the landlord will have to accept below the maximum because all the tenants may not wish to buy. This is commonsense. In the ordinary free play of the market at the moment, where the institutional investor is the moving party in buying and selling properties, the market is around ten to 12 years purchase.

This Bill does not affect the particular market Deputy Corry is talking about. There is no basis whatsoever for suggesting that in some way we are guaranteeing institutional investors 15 years purchase if they buy up property. They have to depend on the free play of the market. All that is provided in section 18 is certain criteria which will apply where the tenant asks the county registrar to fix the terms of purchase where the purchase is compulsorily. In that case, we say that where the property is less than one acre in extent and where the lease has more than 25 years to run then the landlord is entitled to compensation not greater than what he would get from the current national loan. I think that this ties up the matter absolutely.

I appreciate very much that, over the years, Deputy Corry has fought often a lone battle on behalf of tenants to ensure their rights to buy out the freehold. I have the same interests at heart. I agree with what Deputy Corry and Deputy Dunne have said that there is very little justification in this age for ground rents as a type of property holding. A divorce between control and ownership is not good socially: I am totally against it and that is why I am piloting this measure. I do not want to bring a measure through this House, which everybody agrees is necessary, only to find it torpedoed in the Supreme Court within a matter of months.

Get rid of the Supreme Court.

That is easier said than done. There is a Constitution and there are basic property rights set up in the Constitution and we cannot have a system of compensation which has an element of confiscation in it. If you introduce any arbitrary rules, such as the ten years purchase, which may be fair in one case and totally unfair in another, then where the case is unfair and you have a poor person who suffers a drop in income—and you can have a poor person owning a ground rent—the Bill would not last five minutes in the Supreme Court. I have the interests of this matter just as much at heart as Deputy Corry or Deputy Dunne but we can only act within the framework of the Constitution and the basic property rights which are guaranteed.

I am certainly grateful to the Minister for bringing in the principle of a purchase of ground rents but how he brings this 15 years purchase into this beats my imagination, to be honest about it. Were we, under the Cork Borough Boundary Bill, entitled to plead the Constitution of the State when we were——

That was only putting money from one public purse into another.

It was taking the money out of my pocket and giving it to the crooks in the city.

These expressions should not be used. The Deputy should be careful not to use those expressions.

I am a farmer and I have been accustomed all my life to what we call floor prices. They put a floor price on wheat but we never got any more than that floor price from the miller. They put a floor price on the barley and we never got any more than the floor price.

A Deputy

You were lucky to get it.

This is a floor price in reverse.

I am hanged if I am going to see any landlord getting, through legislation of this House, and while it is in my power to prevent it, one and a half times the value of his property and one and a half times more than we got for ours. If ten years' purchase was good enough for the country boys of Cork, then it is good enough for these other people and for the Bank of Ireland and Barclay's Bank. I would ask the Minister to have another look at the matter.

What about dividing the difference?

I will have a look at it between now and Report Stage.

When is the Report Stage coming up?

September—when we come back.

It will not be on now?

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment No. 27 not moved.

I think this links up with an earlier amendment which was not pushed, amendment No. 5.

Amendment No. 27 not moved.

I move amendment No. 28:

To add to the section a new subsection as follows:

"( ) Where the ground rents of a town or area have been the subject of an arbitration award agreed to by representatives both of landlords and tenants the purchase shall be based on such rent."

When we dealt with this matter in 1932 and reduced the ground rents in Cobh by over £5,300 a year, advantage was taken afterwards of prevailing conditions by the landlords to put back the 33½ per cent on the tenants when the leases fell in. I am endeavouring in this amendment to cover that.

We have already met this case.

If you have I will be happy.

If the Deputy looks at section 18 (a) (i), he will find that it covers a case such as the arbitration case envisaged by Deputy Corry. In effect it is the rent payable in respect of the land to be purchased by the tenant which is to be taken into account.

Even though the lease fell in in the meantime and a different rent was fixed?

That is another day's work. That is not what the amendment says.

Bygones have to be bygones. I cannot help where leases have fallen in. This Bill is providing for the future and as far as the future is concerned the point is met.

The future, God help us. I am concerned with this because, as I said, in a large number of cases advantage was taken of law and order and buckshee legislation passed by this House——

I cannot allow that expression. The Deputy will withdraw any disrespectful description of the actions of this House.

The matter is covered anyway as this amendment is phrased.

My amendment is that:

Where the ground rents of a town or area have been the subject of an arbitration award agreed to by representatives both of landlords and tenants the purchase shall be based on such rent.

Precisely: That is what is covered by section 18.

We will have another chat on Report Stage, if it is not.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Section 18, as amended, agreed to.
SECTION 19.
Question proposed: "That section 19 stand part of the Bill".

Apparently a criticism of this section is that it does not give the registrar power to enforce his order. That appears to have been omitted from the section. He can make the order but he has no power to enforce it. Would the Minister like to comment on this?

Yes, it is not in this section, but it is in section 22 (3):

An award or order of a county registrar in an arbitration under this Act may, by leave of the Court, be enforced as a judgment or order to the same effect and, where leave is so given, judgment may be entered in terms of the award.

That is so.

Is it obligatory on a person to employ solicitor and counsel?

He can do it on his own?

If he wishes.

That is a relief.

Question put and agreed to.
Sections 20 and 21 agreed to.
SECTION 22.
Amendments Nos. 29, 30 and 31 not moved.
Section 22 agreed to.
Sections 23 and 24 agreed to.
SECTION 25.

Amendments Nos. 32, 33 and 35, along with Deputy O'Higgins's amendment No. 34, could all be taken together because they relate to the same principle. Amendment No. 36 is consequential.

Amendments Nos. 32, 33, 34, 35 and 36 may be discussed together.

I move amendment No. 32:

In page 13, line 36, after "tenement,' " to add "and the insertion of ‘if the alteration does not involve the erection, provision or reconstruction (not being an improvement within the meaning of the Landlord and Tenant (Revisionary Leases) Act, 1958) of any building or structure'".

In the main, these amendments concern covenants which will survive the purchase of a ground rent. The general principle is that covenants will not survive the purchase of a freehold. The freehold will be subject merely to planning requirements. There are specific covenants, however, which we decided to retain because of their particular quality. One of these is an amenity covenant through which the landlord derives a particular personal benefit arranged freely between him and the tenant. There is also the case of a right of way existing as a result of arrangement between the landlord and other lessees. Where a lessee would acquire the freehold interest we feel it would be unjust to the other lessees to be able to deprive them of that right of way. We feel it would be wrong to have these covenants automatically go by the board on the purchase of the freehold. The principle behind the amendments to sections 25 and 27 is that a lessee who does not purchase the fee simple should be in no better position, as regards relief from covenants, than if he had done so.

This applies to sites as well as to buildings?

The Bill is concerned only with the purchase of premises. Sites are not included.

I hoped it did include sites.

Amendment agreed to.
Section 25, as amended, agreed to.
Section 26 agreed to.
NEW SECTION.

Amendment No. 33 was discussed with amendment No. 32.

I move amendment No. 33:

Before section 27 to insert the following new section:

(1) Where a person who holds land under a lease (whether granted before or after the commencement of this Act) which is a building lease or a proprietary lease proposes to do, in relation to the land, anything—

(a) which is development and as respects which permission has been granted under Part IV of the Local Government (Planning and Development) Act, 1963,

(b) which is exempted development for the purposes of that Act, or

(c) as respects which consultation is required by section 84 of that Act and has taken place to the extent required by that section,

and which, if done, would, apart from this section, be a breach of any covenant, condition or agreement in the lease prohibiting the alteration of the user of the land or the making of an improvement (within the meaning of the Act of 1958) thereon, the covenant, condition or agreement shall not, in so far as it prohibits such alteration or the making of such an improvement, apply or have effect in relation to that thing.

(2) Subsection (1) of this section does not apply in relation to a covenant, condition or agreement—

(a) to which section 29 of this Act applies, or

(b) which is contained in a lease made by a harbour authority, within the meaning of the Harbours Act, 1946, as lessor, whether before or after the passing of this Act,

(c) which has the effect of prohibiting the erection, provision or reconstruction (not being an improvement within the meaning of the Act of 1958) of any building or structure, in so far as the covenant, condition or agreement has such effect, or

(d) prohibiting any alteration of the user of the land demised by the lease which would impose a liability or an increased liability on the lessor for the payment of rates, in so far as the covenant, condition or agreement prohibits such alteration.

I should point out that section 27 is deleted from the Bill. That is consequential on amendment No. 33 which is a new section.

Amendment agreed to.
Section 27 deleted.
Section 28 agreed to.
SECTION 29.
Amendment No. 34 not moved

I move amendment No. 35:

In page 14, line 36, after "such owner" to insert "or to a right of way over the land".

This amendment has been discussed with amendment No. 32.

Amendment agreed to.

I move amendment No. 36:

In page 14, lines 38 to 40, to delete all words from "enforceable" to the end of the section and to substitute "in the case of a covenant, condition or agreement which does not relate to a right of way, by such owner or his personal representatives or successors in title as if the acquisition had not occurred and, in the case of a covenant, condition or agreement which relates to a right of way, by any person aggrieved by the breach thereof".

This amendment has been discussed with amendment No. 32.

Amendment agreed to.
Section 29, as amended, agreed to.
Sections 30 and 31 agreed to.
SECTION 32.

I move amendment No. 37:

In page 15, line 5, after "Landlord and Tenant" to insert "(Ground Rents)".

The purpose of this is to emphasise what the Bill is about.

Amendment agreed to.
Section 32, as amended, agreed to.
TITLE.

I move amendment No. 38.

In page 3, lines 6 and 7, to delete

"AMEND THE LAW RELATING TO LANDLORD AND TENANT" and to insert "PROVIDE FOR THE EXTINGUISHING OF CERTAIN RENTS BY ENABLING LESSEES AND TENANTS LIABLE TO PAY SUCH RENTS IN RESPECT OF LAND TO PURCHASE THE FEE SIMPLE IN THE LAND, TO PROVIDE FOR THE APPORTIONMENT OF CERTAIN RENTS, TO MAKE PROVISION IN RELATION TO THE WAIVER AND RELAXATION OF CERTAIN RESTRICTIVE COVENANTS IN LEASES, TO AMEND IN OTHER RESPECTS THE LAW OF LANDLORD AND TENANT AND TO PROVIDE FOR OTHER MATTERS CONNECTED WITH THE MATTERS AFORESAID".

The purpose of this amendment is to amend the Long Title in order to define precisely what the Bill is about— dealing with the extinguishing of ground rents and providing machinery for their purchase.

Amendment agreed to.
Title, as amended, agreed to.

Pursuant to Standing Order 96, subsection (3), I am to report specially to the Dáil that the Committee have amended the Title to read as follows:

AN ACT TO PROVIDE FOR THE EXTINGUISHING OF CERTAIN RENTS BY ENABLING LESSEES AND TENANTS LIABLE TO PAY SUCH RENTS IN RESPECT OF LAND TO PURCHASE THE FEE SIMPLE IN THE LAND, TO PROVIDE FOR THE APPORTIONMENT OF CERTAIN RENTS, TO MAKE PROVISION IN RELATION TO THE WAIVER AND RELAXATION OF CERTAIN RESTRICTIVE COVENANTS IN LEASES, TO AMEND IN OTHER RESPECTS THE LAW OF LANDLORD AND TENANT AND TO PROVIDE FOR OTHER MATTERS CONNECTED WITH THE MATTERS AFORESAID.

Bill reported with amendments.

27th September.

Report Stage ordered for Tuesday, 27th September, 1966.
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