Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 25 Oct 1966

Vol. 224 No. 13

Private Members' Business. - Travel Facilities for Old Age and Blind Pensioners (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:

That Dáil Éireann is of opinion that old age and blind pensioners be afforded travel facilities by CIE bus and rail free of charge.

—(Deputy Larkin).

Mr. O'Hara

When I moved the adjournment of this debate last week, I was trying to relate my remarks to the fact that free transport had been provided for members of the Garda Síochána in order to control farmers or, as was suggested, to try to keep the peace. The Leas-Cheann Comhairle ruled me out of order, but in the course of the debate on that occasion the Minister for Social Welfare is quoted in volume 224 of the Official Report at column 1625 as saying:

What about the squadron leaders —the British aristocracy?

That remark no doubt——

An Ceann Comhairle

This debate has reference to a private Deputy's proposal to give free facilities to old age pensioners. I do not see how the Deputy can integrate with that a disagreement at present existing.

Mr. O'Hara

With respect, I just want to make a brief reference to it.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy will keep to the motion only.

Mr. O'Hara

I just want to go on record as saying——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy will keep to the motion.

Mr. James Tully

I knew a squadron leader who was an old age pensioner.

Mr. O'Hara

I think the remark was an insult to Mr. Deasy and the Minister should not have made such a remark.

An Ceann Comhairle

That remark has no relevance to this debate.

Mr. O'Hara

In deference to your wishes——

An Ceann Comhairle

In deference to the rules of order and relevance.

Mr. O'Hara

——I shall proceed. In the same volume, No. 224, at column 1612 the Minister for Transport and Power is quoted as saying:

As the House knows, this question has been raised on a number of occasions. On each occasion while I have been Minister I made it clear that the Government have, since 1957, helped the people by raising the social welfare benefits to the maximum degree. They have been increased considerably and this motion I would regard as a very natural one in view of the fact that we are all seeking to improve the lot of people with low incomes.

I cannot agree with the Minister, and I want to go on record as saying that, in view of the fact that the Minister's Party have gone around my constituency and other parts of the country and collected the pension books from old age pensioners who were in receipt of British pensions and who got increases as a result of increases that were paid across the water by the opposite number of the Minister for Social Welfare—in view of that the Minister for Transport and Power has a terrible "neck" when he says that they have, so to speak, leaned over backwards to try to improve the lot of social welfare recipients.

I cannot agree with that statement and want to go on record as saying that. Further, we have the Minister at column 1614 of the same volume saying:

It seems to me that when you look at the whole problem it would be better for us to increase the social welfare benefits as quickly as we can in the course of the next few years. That, again, as everybody knows, depends on an increase in production, an increase in the prosperity of the nation. The changes that have taken place since 1957 in the levels of social welfare benefits have been considerable and they are due to a growth in the State's national income and to a growth in industrial and agricultural production and all the other services from which we derive our wealth.

I want to tell the Minister that not many people in the old age pension group or the social welfare group generally would agree with him because of the callous way in which these people have been treated for a long number of years. We know that were it not for the fact that we have wonderful charitable organisations such as the St. Vincent de Paul Society and many others the plight of many of these people would be very much worse and that they would be unable to get money for transport to go to collect their old age pensions or blind pensions. In many instances we are aware that people have to rely on friends or relatives to collect their pensions because they cannot afford the fare. There is some satisfaction for old age pensioners in going in the bus or train and meeting old friends of former years and having a chat with them and in meeting them perhaps at the post office counter or wherever these benefits are paid out. That helps to add years to their lives and it is a consolation to them to have the old age pension or blind pension in their own pockets to spend in any way they wish.

I want to go on record as saying that great credit is due to many organisations such as the St. Vincent de Paul Society and others for the kind way in which they treat these people. Bad as their situation is—and it is bad— in the country it is worse in the cities than in the rural areas. Were it not for the help given by the charitable organisations, the problem of transport would be even worse than it is now, and it is very bad indeed. I read in the Evening Herald this evening a report on the activities of the National Council for the Blind in Ireland. It states that the last 20 sales enabled the Council to provide 2,320 radio sets for blind people. That is very commendable work and the people responsible for it deserve the best thanks of the House and the nation as a whole.

One would imagine from the Minister's statement on this motion by Deputy Larkin, which was supported by other Labour Deputies and by members of my Party, that he agreed with it. All it was, of course, was the usual whitewashing and lip sympathy to which we are accustomed in the House. However, when it comes to going a bit further, exploring the possibility of providing free transport for those old people, the Minister and his colleagues are either too lazy to yield an inch or make it quite clear that they will not do so. We have another example of it in Merrion Street at this moment, with consequential serious results for the nation.

From time to time I avail of public transport and am familiar with its operation not alone in this city but in the country. During my contribution last week on this motion, I made the point that when the workers and the children have been transported in the early morning, the older section of the community then come out, between 10 and 11 a.m. At that time there are many vacant seats in buses and trains and it is sad to think that we cannot extend to old age pensioners and blind pensioners the facility of travelling free on those vacant seats. I know I am wasting my time appealing to the Minister to do something about it.

He pointed out in his statement that there are 146,000 people in this category. Surely the Minister has enough commonsense to realise that thousands of these people are able to walk the short distances required to collect their pensions? I know scores of them who have no more than 200 yards or at most a quarter mile to walk. They would prefer to walk. I am sure Deputy Larkin, who initiated the motion, did not have in mind able-bodied people who can and do walk. Such people would not avail of this free transport. They would account for thousands and the Minister therefore threw out the figure of 146,000 as a smokescreen, as dust in the eyes of Deputies and of the general public. He does not want to give in on this point and endeavoured to make us believe there would be a rush of those people into buses and trains touring the country free.

Many old age pensioners are well able to jump on their bicycles or drive cars at the age of 70 years. There is need, however, of free transport for pensioners who are badly able to walk and we ask the Minister to provide that CIE will issue free vouchers to them. The amount involved would be almost negligible. Many people in this category are charitable and would not occupy a seat if their more needy neighbours required it. As I have already pointed out, thousands of pensioners would not avail of such free transport. Therefore, the Minister's attitude is nothing but bluff. Let me tell him that at local level county councils in remote areas already issue vouchers for free travel to local clinics and this does not cause any great pressure on local authority funds. Our thanks are due to people like ambulance drivers and others who help aged and needy people by way of free transport.

This is a year in which we had many celebrations, commemorations and the unveiling of monuments. I approve of it. I admire the men who risked their lives in 1916, before it and later. Many of them paid the supreme sacrifice. The people we are now discussing lived through that period, lived through British rule in this country. Many of them engaged in building the railroads and assembling the buses and they are now in the age group when they need our help. It is unbelievable that an Irish Minister can come into the House and refuse pointblank to afford this small facility to old age pensioners. We must be the greatest hypocrites on God's earth.

Mr. S. Dunne

This is a modest proposal for the relief of distress among what is possibly the last of the great generations of Irish people—great in the sense of what they achieved, indeed of what they endured more than what they achieved. I cannot but comment on the fact that when we are here discussing what is no more than our fundamental duty to the aged and the blind of Ireland, there is nobody in the Fianna Fáil benches except the Minister who must be here anyway, and few elsewhere in the House.

Mr. O'Hara

The Deputy is being charitable.

Notice taken that 20 Members were not present; House counted, and 20 Members being present,

Mr. S. Dunne

It was thought no more than appropriate that there should be at least a fraction of the Government Party here when we are discussing the conditions of the old aged and the blind.

Mr. Carty

May I draw the attention of the Chair to the fact that the Front Bench of Fine Gael is missing?

An Ceann Comhairle

I have no interest in benches.

Mr. S. Dunne

I deplore the absence of most of the members of both major Parties from this very important discussion.

Mr. Crowley

And the minor one.

Mr. S. Dunne

I also regret that the younger and more fleetfooted of the Government Party had to interrupt their repast to come here to listen to this discussion on the old aged and the blind. I had just begun to deal with the matter contained in this motion which is very simple, a modest proposal—the phrase may ring a bell in the more broadminded of my hearers— to make free travel available to the old aged and the blind.

I want to know from this House— and we are going to ask Members again in the Lobbies—are we asking too much of this nation that there should be this simple amenity provided for this section of people which is a very small fragment of the whole nation? I was referring to the fact that the people about whom we are talking now are possibly the last of the great generations, not so much for what they achieved but what they endured, not the least indeed of their endurances being that they lived during 30 years of Fianna Fáil rule.

Mr. Carty

And six of a Coalition.

Mr. O'Hara

They had cheap food at that time.

Mr. S. Dunne

That was a breathing space. I think, seriously, people will agree that what I am saying is true. The old people we know today in Ireland lived by a set of values and standards which are hard to find today. It is necessary in thinking about this motion that we should try to get into our minds a picture of those of whom we are talking: people who, in the main, never asked for much from this State, from those who went before the native rulers of this State, except a return for their labour; people who were made to carry the great burden of near slavery in their youth through lack of organisation, through the disregard and the contempt of authority; people who have had to live the hard way, the hardest of all possible ways, and who have come to the twilight of their years, many of them still carrying in their bodies the troubles and the illnesses incurred as a result of the inhumanities inflicted upon them by an employing breed of another day.

These are the people we are talking about, the people who, compared with the present generation, were paragons of conduct and of behaviour. Many of them, of course, had their faults but the broad picture is that it is hard to find their equals. Their equals are scarce and I doubt if they are to be found.

Mr. Carty

Ní bheidh a leithéidí aris.

Mr. S. Dunne

Ní bheidh, gan aon amhras, agus is mór an trua é. What are we asking here? Are we asking the country to bankrupt itself? Are we asking that there should be an enormous strain put on the revenue? Are we asking something that would need a Dr. Schacht or somebody of his ability to deal with in terms of raising the necessary finance? We are not. In fact, what we are asking is a very minimal thing. The cost of what we are asking in this motion, I suggest to the House, would be negligible.

Deputy O'Hara has put his finger upon a very important aspect of this motion. The Minister, in his intervention, said that there are 146,000 people receiving the old age pension—both the non-contributory and contributory classes, I take it—and that once provided with the right to free travel, they would invade the transport system of the country and that nobody would get sitting down because every bus would be packed out with old age pensioners, which, of course, is a ridiculous idea. As those of us who use buses know— at least I do on occasion use buses, although they are not all that much cheaper than using a car nowadays in this city or county—this idea in the Minister's mind is due to the lack of knowledge of how the people really live.

As has been pointed out, the number of old age pensioners and blind who could be expected to use the transport system would be only a small proportion of that 146,000, and they would be using the system, it is reasonable to anticipate, at a time when the main burden would have disappeared; in other words, when the workers would be at work and the school children would be gone to school. The odd old or blind person who would want to use the bus or train would be using it at a time when buses or trains would be running half empty. Therefore, there is no substance or reality in talk about the cost of this proposal.

The Minister also suggested that the better way to approach this problem was to increase social welfare allowances. We know the rate at which social welfare allowances have been increased and the method by which old age pensions have been increased. Has it not been our annual shame that we have been able to find only 2/6 or 5/- for the old age pensioner every year?

Mr. Briscoe

You gave them 10d a year for three years.

Mr. S. Dunne

I have never been in a position to do anything, yet. The Deputy will not be an old age pensioner when I will have the opportunity. He will have many years of virility, I hope, left. For so young a man he betrays an amazingly long memory. It seems to me he should be more forward-looking. The young Deputies will achieve nothing by this harking back. That was the kind of thing that I had to listen to 20 years ago when I came in here. They were still fighting in the ditches although it was 25 years after. They were still shooting at one another — metaphorically, of course—when I came in some 20 years ago. Now that has gone. They are all friends. That is a good thing for the country. Let us not have from this new crop of Fianna Fáil Deputies, who will be here only for a short time, as is obvious from what is happening in the country, this harking back to the past. I suggest to them that as young Deputies they might look forward and think about their duty to the aged and about what can be done for them and what should be done for them.

Invariably, money is the obstacle when one proposes an improvement in the lot of any section of the community. There are many things for which money can be found with the greatest facility. One invariably discovers that if the pressure is great enough and if the number of votes is sufficiently large, money will be found but if the number of votes involved is not very large the question of justice does not influence the disposal of money or the deployment of the State's finances.

Everybody will make sympathetic speeches up and down the country about the aged but here is a very simple proposal which does not entail expenditure except a very small scale but which is met with excuses from the Minister as to why it should be rejected. The Minister professes sympathy. We have had new Deputies rushing in from their tea. I suppose we will have tea and sympathy now. The Minister professes sympathy with the aged. He has mentioned charity also. There is the old simile — as cold as charity. Charity is no good. Charity without good works will not be enough to save us—or am I quoting correctly?

Mr. O'Hara

Yes—the penny catechism.

Mr. Carty

The devil can quote scripture for his own purpose.

An Ceann Comhairle

Order. Deputy Dunne should be allowed to make his speech without interruption.

Mr. Briscoe

He has to go back——

An Ceann Comhairle

Will the Deputy please listen to what I say? If he wants to contribute, he can make a contribution himself.

Mr. S. Dunne

There is great commonalty of attitude as between certain elements of the Government Party and elements of the Opposition, from which I exclude my good and progressive friend, Deputy O'Hara. There is a kind of fellow feeling——

Mr. Carty

It makes us wondrous kind.

Mr. S. Dunne

——as between, for instance, Deputy Ryan and certain members of the Government Party.

Mr. Carty

God forgive you. Never say that.

Mr. S. Dunne

Deputy Richie Ryan, at column 1612 of the Dáil Debates of 19th October, said, among other things, that he was in favour of the motion. I say that in fairness to him. He also said something which throws a little sharp light into his mind and shows the sympathy of thought to which I have referred as existing between him and certain members of the Government Party:

CIE may quite rightly say they test everything by what advantage they get out of it.

What a horrible attitude to bring to the question of vouchers for free travel for aged persons and the blind, that CIE are entitled to ask: "What will we get out of this?". This attitude has been expressed by the Minister in a more general and sophisticated way in regard to the running of CIE. I am not going to dilate on his whole policy now for the reason that the Chair would not allow me but the Minister's whole policy has been based upon the idea of CIE making a profit, with no regard to CIE as a public service, and to which CIE has had no regard in the past. I am drawing a parallel, pointing to the similarity of thought that exists between certain elements in the Government Party and certain elements on the Front Bench of Fine Gael.

The Minister also referred to a concession which he said is operated by CIE in favour of blind persons whereby blind persons can travel at single fare plus one-third for a round journey. There is an Irish word which could describe that as only an Irish word could. It is the word "gaisce".

Mr. O'Hara

Is that Southern Irish?

Mr. Carty

A what?

Mr. S. Dunne

A gaisce. I do not think the Deputy will find any difficulty in getting his consituents to translate it for him. "That is a great gaisce out of you"—surely the Deputy must have heard that?

Mr. Carty

The Deputy is not bad as a gaisce himself.

Mr. S. Dunne

I try to be as gaisciúil as it is possible to be but in the real sense of the word. I try to do good by stealth, as far as possible, unlike many others. The point I want to make is that this is a contemptible concession. To make any claim here for it as being meritorious on the part of CIE is a piece of impertinence. For a Minister to say that it is a concession that blind persons can travel at single fare plus one-third for a round journey shows a shameless attitude towards this whole problem. The Minister has suggested we should wait until the social welfare payments go up and by that means enable the old aged and blind to pay bus and train fares as they require. No reference is made by him to the fact that bus and train fares continue to rise.

Suggestions were made of the difficulty of evolving a system whereby the classes I refer to might be afforded free travel. There is no difficulty at all. There are thousands of people in the country who travel free of charge by CIE at the moment. Thousands of them do not choose to travel by CIE but would prefer to travel by car. I refer to the employees of CIE. I do not see why whatever means is employed to provide those facilities for the workers of CIE—from the top to the bottom— could not be extended to make free travel available to the blind and the aged.

We base our claim for this on ordinary common decency and justice. There can be no argument about cost. I know semi-State bodies are at present sending out letters to private citizens asking them for loans. I have a couple of them in my pocket, where the ESB is looking for loans from private citizens who want to instal electricity. The ESB is saying: "You pay for the whole job and maybe we will refund you the money when the financial situation eases." I do not know if my colleague has seen any of those letters?

Mr. Carty

I would like very much to see them.

Mr. S. Dunne

They are quite extraordinary documents. The financial situation has been brought to the abyss of calamity by Fianna Fáil. The mismanagement, the pretence and the bluff that have gone on over the last several years by this Government have brought us into a situation which is as near disaster as makes no difference. Still, here is a case where social good and social justice can be done without imposing any strain other than a negligible strain upon the Exchequer and the Minister puts up all kinds of sympathy and excuses as an answer.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy has only two minutes more.

Mr. Carty

We will never stick it.

Mr. S. Dunne

I think you will stick it until at least three years are up.

Mr. Carty

I am talking about your speech.

Mr. S. Dunne

Now, now. If we must exchange compliments, let us keep on a civilised level. I do not want to say anything further except that the proposal before the House is of such a nature that every man of any humanity should support it. There are men of humanity in Fianna Fáil. In fact, I would say most of them have a fair share of humanity, although there are a few we will not talk about. Similarly with Fine Gael. I ask them to come with us into the Lobby to exercise their rights as free men. That is what you are supposed to be since 1932. Of course, some were free men since 1921 as some were free since before that. But you will observe I am always on the side of the people, as my Whip is always on the side of the people. I ask you, one and all, to come with us and give to this most deserving section of our people this very little thing we ask.

Mr. Carty

You are the nearest thing to a missioner I ever heard.

Mr. Cluskey

I would not insult Deputy P.J. Burke by saying anything like that.

Mr. S. Dunne

I will be hearing later.

Mr. Larkin

When moving the motion, I expressed on behalf of my Party our appreciation of the willingness of the Minister and members of Fine Gael to consent to taking this motion out of order. I am afraid that is the only thing for which I can give the Minister any credit. His whole approach has been a great disappointment to the old aged and blind people. His contribution to the debate did not show any great sense of humanity or of understanding for the problems of these people. He did himself less than justice by endeavouring to turn the question into one of whether or not there was a case to be made for an improvement in social welfare payments. I do not propose to follow the Minister on that line. I do not think any Deputy would differ from him in regard to the need for an improvement in social welfare payments. I have no doubt that you, Sir, will rule me out of order if I start discussing social welfare on this motion, but was the Minister really applying himself to the problem before the House when he took the line he did? The motion does not mean that, even if free travel were granted tomorrow, every one of the 146,000 old age and blind pensioners would avail of it. Not all of them would need to travel to do their shopping in areas where they could shop to the best advantage. Not all of them would need to visit relatives in hospitals and institutions every day. Consequently, this figure of 146,000 has just been thrown out by the Minister to justify his opposition and that of his Party to the motion.

What are we basically concerned with in this motion? We are basically concerned to endeavour to secure for these people—and, as Deputy S. Dunne has said, practically all of them have given service to the community in one form or another—the opportunity of travelling without charge on CIE, whether by bus or by train. Any Deputy familiar with the circumstances of old age pensioners will know that, at the moment, a considerable number of these people are in institutions. A considerable proportion of them are living in areas from which they would seldom move away and, to say the least of it, they would infrequently require to travel by bus or by train.

Does the Minister seriously contend that there would be overcrowding on the buses in the city of Dublin if CIE gave this privilege? Does he think that anyone normally paying a fare would not be able to get a seat in a bus or train? Does the Minister think that the income of CIE will suffer? Of course, it would not. However, it would mean that people who, because of their economic circumstances, are at present unable to make journeys which are necessary would be able to visit a friend or a relative in hospital and would be able to travel once or twice a week from the outskirts of the city to the areas where food is cheaper and would not be obliged, through economic circumstances, to remain where they are or to depend on the charity of others.

The Minister and many of his colleagues are very fond of dilating in this House and elsewhere on their belief in private initiative, private enterprise, the sacred role of the individual to make a contribution to the progress of the nation. In dealing with this motion, the Minister has not for one moment thought of the pensioners as individuals because if he had, he would not produce the type of statistic he used when arguing against it.

Mr. O'Hara

He must have got it in a dustbin.

Mr. Larkin

If he were thinking as one usually thinks in regard to this matter, he would think of these people as individuals, as old men and old women who badly need this facility and would utilise his position as Minister to convey his views to CIE that these people are deserving of the facility. They are old and many of them will very likely not be with us this day next year. During the intervening period, at least let them have this facility.

It has been said during this discussion that free transport facilities are available for certain people. This House approves of special transport facilites for schoolchildren. The people mainly affected by this motion are not retired senior civil servants, retired senior local authority officers, retired captains of industry, retired Ministers or anybody else: the people affected by this motion are the ordinary retired workers. They are the people on whose behalf the motion was moved. I doubt if a former Minister of this House who might be drawing a pension would bother going to CIE to look for a certificate for free transport if he wanted to visit a friend or a relative. I doubt if former Chairmen of CIE or of other Government bodies, having reached pensionable age, contributory or non-contributory, would look for the facility to travel free to do their shopping. I doubt if the senior people in industry, in commerce or in distribution, whether coming from the State, semi-State or private sector of the community, would be looking for the service.

The people who would need the service and look for it are those who are required to exist on the miserable social services provided in this State. I speak for people to whom the expenditure of a shilling is a matter of serious importance and to whom the expenditure of three shilling on bus fares, going to and coming from town, is a matter of major financial importance. The level of social welfare is not the answer. Even on the social welfare level the problem does not affect all people because they are not equally affected in so far as their need to utilise public transport is concerned.

A motion of this nature is of itself to some extent confined. I was surprised at the Minister's reference that the adoption of this motion might mean that it could be extended on another occasion to the disabled. Offhand, I do not know the number of disabled in the country but, even if we accept the Minister's contention in relation to those who are disabled, I do not think that would create any very big problem. I put it to the Members of this House that they should view this motion in the light of their own knowledge and experience of the needs of these people. For too many of us it seems to be sufficient to award a sum by way of social welfare benefit and then forget all about the recipients. I wonder—Deputy S. Dunne referred to this—how many of us would be here tonight, would this House be functioning at all, were it not for the services in the past of the many thousands in relation to whom we are not even prepared, through the Minister for Transport and Power, to inform CIE that it is our view as public representatives that the facility asked for should be made available.

Judging by the reports in the public press members of the Minister's Party are not entirely at one with him in this matter. The gentlemen who sit behind the Minister have not participated in this debate and have not supported in this House the plea made on behalf of these people. The position seems a little different outside. Within the past day or so, members of the Minister's Party have gone on record as passing a resolution—the constituency meeting was presided over by the Minister for Justice—in favour of old age pensioners being provided with free transport facilities by CIE. The report of that meeting is in the Irish Times, page 9, of 24th October.

Perhaps it is not within our competence to convince the Minister for Transport and Power here, and the Deputies who support him, but I wonder will his colleagues who represent Dublin North East, the Minister for Agriculture and the Minister for Industry and Commerce, heed this resolution passed at a meeting of their constituents? Or will they offer up a little prayer of thanksgiving that the debate on this motion will conclude before they have an opportunity of indicating here in the House whether they are in favour of the views expressed by some of the people they represent? I should imagine there will be as great a silence on this occasion as there has been on other occasions in the past.

I do not accept the contention that this facility would prove impossible of operation. I have no doubt whatsoever that, if this motion were passed by the House and the Minister indicated in firm language—he can be very firm on occasion—to CIE that he expected the principles enshrined in this motion to be given effect to without delay, CIE would have no problem in making the necessary administrative arrangements.

Very often in this House lipservice is paid to earlier generations, to the people who fought and to the people who struggled and worked, the people who bent their youthful energies and adult years to hard, laborious toil, very often ill-rewarded; lipservice is paid to the contribution they made to the development of this State. The test of whether we are really sincere in this lipservice is our attitude when the opportunity comes to reward these people. Do we take that opportunity? Or do we continue merely to pay lipservice? This House now has an opportunity to do something small for some of these people. It is not a very costly thing. The finances of the State will not be endangered. The balance of payments will not be upset. It will not result in anyone parading in front of or behind Leinster House. It will not bankrupt CIE. All it will do, if the motion is adopted, is convey to the country and to CIE that it is the view of the Members of this House that old age pensioners and blind pensioners who need travel facilities should have them provided free of charge. As I say, it would not have any effect on the balance of payments nor would the estimates for running the country be upset even if the total cost fell on CIE, if there were any cost, or even if it were to be met by a special Vote or by some assistance from the Department of Social Welfare.

The main effect would be that old people who face serious economic difficulties, and who cannot face the difficulty, especially in winter, of trudging four, five or six miles in inclement weather to visit relatives, consequently deprive their relatives of a visit and through no fault of their own are themselves deprived of this contact with their own family, would have this small facility made available to them. I see old people going around the city and other Deputies will see them in the towns and villages, and they are very quiet people who do not need very much from life except a warm home, decent clothing and a little food and tobacco, perhaps an occasional drink, but what they do require is the society of their friends and most of all continuous contact with their relatives. Above all, they require that they be able to visit their immediate relatives if they are sick or if they are in hospital dying. Surely we in this House should no longer avoid making it possible for these people to visit their friends and relatives without sacrifice and to make it possible for them to go into the cheaper market places to buy their small requirements of food to keep body and soul together. This is all they need.

May I say that not too many months ago the President was attending parades in various parts of the country and many of the people who were standing there at those parades were people of mature years? Many of the people who paid tribute to those who served this country are themselves in the old age pension classification. Surely we should avail of this opportunity to help them by passing this motion and I would ask the House to adopt it.

Question put.

The Dáil divided: Tá, 36; Níl, 59.

Tá

• Barry, Richard.
• Belton, Paddy.
• Burke, Joan T.
• Burton, Philip.
• Clinton, Mark A.
• Cluskey, Frank.
• Connor, Patrick.
• Coogan, Fintan.
• Corish, Brendan.
• Cosgrave, Liam.
• Creed, Donal.
• Crotty, Patrick J.
• Desmond, Eileen.
• Dockrell, Maurice E.
• Donegan, Patrick S.
• Donnellan, John.
• Dunne, Seán
• Farrelly, Denis.
• Fitzpatrick, Thomas J. (Cavan).
• Harte, Patrick D.
• Hogan, Patrick (South Tipperary).
• Hogan O'Higgins, Brigid.
• Kenny, Henry.
• Larkin, Denis.
• Lindsay, Patrick J.
• Mullen, Michael.
• O'Donnell, Patrick.
• O'Donnell, Tom.
• O'Hara, Thomas.
• O'Higgins, Michael J.
• O'Higgins, Thomas F. K.
• O'Leary, Michael.
• Pattison, Séamus.
• Ryan, Richie.
• Treacy, Seán.
• Tully, James.

Níl

• Allen, Lorcan.
• Andrews, David.
• Blaney, Neil T.
• Boland, Kevin.
• Booth, Lionel.
• Boylan, Terence.
• Brady, Philip.
• Brennan, Joseph.
• Brennan, Paudge.
• Breslin, Cormac.
• Briscoe, Ben.
• Burke, Patrick J.
• Calleary, Phelim A.
• Carter, Frank.
• Carty, Michael.
• Childers, Erskine.
• Clohessy, Patrick.
• Collins, James J.
• Cotter, Edward.
• Crinion, Brendan.
• Cronin, Jerry.
• Crowley, Flor.
• Cunningham, Liam.
• Davern, Don.
• de Valera, Vivion.
• Dowling, Joe.
• Egan, Nicholas.
• Fahey, John.
• Faulkner, Pádraig.
• Fitzpatrick, Thomas J.
• (Dublin South-Central).
• Flanagan, Seán.
• Foley, Desmond.
• Gallagher, James.
• Geoghegan, John.
• Gibbons, James M.
• Gilbride, Eugene.
• Gogan, Richard P.
• Haughey, Charles.
• Hillery, Patrick J.
• Hilliard, Michael.
• Kennedy, James J.
• Kitt, Michael F.
• Lalor, Patrick J.
• Lemass, Noel T.
• Lenihan, Brian.
• Lenihan, Patrick.
• Lynch, Celia.
• Lynch, Jack.
• McEllistrim, Thomas.
• Meaney, Tom.
• Millar, Anthony G.
• Molloy, Robert.
• Mooney, Patrick.
• Moore, Seán.
• Nolan, Thomas.
• Ó Ceallaigh, Seán.
• O'Connor Timothy.
• O'Malley, Donogh.
• Smith, Patrick.

Tellers:—Tá: Deputies Larkin and James Tully; Níl: Deputies Carty and Geoghegan.

Question declared lost.