Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 17 Nov 1966

Vol. 225 No. 8

Committee on Finance. - Vote 41—Transport and Power (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:

That the Vote be referred back for consideration. — (Deputy P. O'Donnell).

Mr. Dowling

In resuming the debate on the Estimate for the Department of Transport and Power, there are one or two matters in relation to Córas Iompair Éireann that I would like to bring to the attention of the Minister.

The first is the question of CIE pensions. This is a matter which has been raised by a number of speakers and one on which I would appeal to the Minister and, through him, to the Chairman and Board of CIE to reconsider the entire pensions scheme in operation in CIE. At the moment we have the story of the paltry amount which is given to long serving members and members who have been on pension for some time. These men gave substantial service over 30 and 40 years. In dark and dismal days, they accepted a reduction in pay. They worked shorter hours in the 1920s and the early 1930s. They are now receiving the appalling sum of £1 and £1 2s 6d per week. I appeal to the Minister for a realistic assessment of the service given by these men and for an increase in pension commensurate with that service. There are very few of them left.

The pension fund of CIE is quite substantial and in the few years that are left to these pensioners some steps should be taken to alleviate their financial situation and enable them to spend their remaining days in comfort. I ask the Minister to make a special plea to the new Chairman at least to double the present rate of pension. Some of these for portion of their pensionable service received only 16/- per week which was later increased to £1 per week. It is time there was a realistic assessment of the situation and some relief given to this less well-off section of pensioners.

With regard to social welfare, I have raised a matter with the Department but I failed to get satisfaction. So did the men concerned. It is a matter in relation to the payment of benefits. Over the years a certain section of workers were covered and were fully paid-up members. They, first of all, moved out of the earlier bracket and became voluntary subscribers in order to maintain social welfare benefits such as old age pensions, widows' and orphans' pensions and medical benefits. The ceiling was increased to £1,200 a year and, because this section was then over the £1,200, CIE refused to pay the full social welfare contribution. They paid the widows' and orphans' contribution but not the contribution for the old age pension.

This is a very serious matter for those affected because they will be deprived of the contributory old age pension. They are willing and anxious to make their social welfare payments in order to obtain these benefits. I ask the Minister to have a special look at this problem. CIE seem to have a peculiar idea that a person who is what they call "a member of a staff" should not pay social welfare contributions, even if he happens to be under £1,200 a year. I have a case in mind of a man who, when the strike was in progress some time ago, received protective notice. Had the strike lasted a few more days or weeks, this man's appointment would have been terminated. Does that indicate that he is a member of the staff? This is quite a serious matter. My main concern is on behalf of those who have only five or six months to go. Failure to comply with the regulations will deprive these of a contributory old age pension. These men are very perturbed. I ask the Minister to bring the matter to the notice of the Board now in order that it may be rectified.

I should like to take this opportunity to pay special tribute to our bus crews. These men operate their vehicles with great skill and care and with tremendous courage in very adverse weather conditions. They operate in snow and ice and fog. If the crew are in bad humour, they are immediately reported by some of the passengers, generally because of some grudge. I do not think one could praise too highly their efficiency and their courtesy. It is unfortunate that attacks should be made on them. Two such attacks were recently brought to my notice and, when investigated, they were found to be without any basis whatsoever. The person who made the complaint had a grudge, not alone against bus crews but against CIE. There are always people prepared to make cockshots of others. That applies to politicians also. In the case of bus crews, men who are earning their bread and butter are subjected to this type of abuse. I should like to join with those who have already expressed appreciation of the splendid work done by these crews in very difficult circumstances. The low accident rate is an indication of their efficiency. I think we can be proud of our bus crews.

In connection with the ESB, there are a number of problems. One relates to the position of old people living in settlements. One of the biggest burdens on these people is the meter rent charged by the ESB. In one of these settlements there are about 100 chalets. Surely one meter should serve them all. People who occupy houses with nine, ten or 12 rooms pay the same meter rent as does the old age pensioner living in a chalet. Many of us have spoken in glowing terms about what should and should not be done for our old people and this is something which should be examined, with a view to alleviating distress amongst that particular section of the community.

I should like also to pay a tribute to our air service, to the efficiency of the staff and to a very enlightened management. The records of our European and transatlantic services speak for themselves, and certainly our technical staffs are the envy of most airlines throughout the world. We have here competent and capable personnel and the records established by our air lines are, if not the highest, among the highest in the world. There is little one can say against the staff or the system of Aer Lingus and it is wonderful to think we have such enlightened management controlling our air lines. The recent agreement is an indication of the clear thinking available from that source. It is a pity other managements would not take a leaf out of the book of management of Aer Lingus in dealing with the employment of personnel and bring about a situation of contentment with conditions which are satisfactory to many, and, at the same time, have an understanding that there will be no interruption in the service for a considerable period in the future.

In conclusion, I should like to wish the Minister the very best and assure him of our assistance, where possible, in the many problems before him. He is a man of outstanding capability and one who has been always available to people with their problems. During this debate, he has heard of many problems and will want some elaboration on them. For myself, I would be freely available to elaborate on many of the items I have mentioned. I have mentioned various problems and I trust that the one I mentioned this morning, in connection with social welfare, will receive his immediate attention because I know one man who will be reaching an age where in three or four months time it will be too late to do anything about him, because he will have failed to comply with the Department of Social Welfare regulations and, therefore, will be deprived of the old age pension in the years ahead.

Mr. Ryan

We are delighted that Deputy Dowling now realises he made a mistake last month when he voted against the Fine Gael motion to provide pension increases for CIE pensioners.

Mr. Dowling

That was a political vote.

Mr. Ryan

We believe too that his vote for the motion would have been of much greater value to these unfortunate men than his remarks today, which he knows will simply fall like seed upon the desert, with no prospect at all of flourishing, so far as the Minister or the hierarchy of CIE, who regard Deputy Dowling and the rest of us in this House as people who have no right to suggest improvements in CIE or elsewhere, are concerned. But if he and his colleagues had voted in favour, that much would be on the records of this House. It would indeed have been a vote which would have had immense significance, and which could not have been ignored or treated with the scant respect some people pay to criticisms made in this House.

The trouble, of course, in relation to CIE and so many other things, is that we have too much shallow thinking, too much empty talk, too much concern with symbols and attractions and too little concern with the fundamentals. The Minister has, on a number of occasions, said that the various changes in the symbols and colour schemes of CIE were insignificant but we consider that a company which has made, I think, no fewer than 15 changes in symbols and colour schemes in three years, needs to have its head examined. I had a list of them all but I appear to have mislaid it. However, I do not think we will have any difficulty in going over them.

CIE, for years, had a colour scheme of dark green and light green and the symbol of the flying wheel. A short time before they discarded this scheme, they took over the GNR services, the buses of which were royal blue and cream. The GNR buses were no sooner in the hands of the CIE merchants than they drove them immediately up to the CIE works so that they could be painted dark green and light green. When they had all the blue and cream buses painted green, they decided they would start at the beginning and paint all the dark and light green buses blue and cream, and so we had a totally unnecessary expenditure in painting twice all the buses north east of Dublin.

Having done this, they painted the blue and cream buses with the old symbol of the flying wheel and, that being accepted as the new symbol of the new CIE, lo and behold, the people who spent their time and energy in devising these things found themselves unemployed. They started again; they scrapped the flying wheel and decided on the lifebelt with the letters CIE in the middle.

But that was not all. We used to have perfectly satisfactory bus stop signs with the poles painted silver or aluminium and the top an attractive blue and white, but this, apparently, was not good enough and more money and effort had to be wasted in devising a new stop sign, so we devised one in a new combination of dark green and light green, not the same dark green and light green as the buses themselves, but rather two of the 40 shades of green for which this country is so famous. When this had become accepted, and the old poles pulled out of the ground and the new ones set down in concrete, further changes had to take place just to show that CIE was changing and to put a new face on CIE, the signs of the two greens were pulled up and new ones put down— navy blue with the lifebelt and the letters CIE on top.

That was not all. For years the busmen in Dublin and elsewhere bore on their caps a brass or bronze symbol of the flying wheel, perfectly adequate, well recognised, but apparently this was regarded as a symbol of the old CIE which people were anxious to get rid of, so all these were removed from the caps of the men and instead they were emblazoned with chromium flying wheels. After the chromium wheel had become accepted by the people as the new symbol of the reformed CIE, the designers got at it again and decided that these were not good enough and they were discarded in favour of a new symbol like the hulk of a ship with the letters CIE in brass on top. After these had been issued to replace all the chromium flying wheels, the designers got at it again and found that this was not good enough. They replaced the brass on the ship's structure by new chromium. So we have recalled all the brass on the badges in favour of the new chromium.

We have all this Gilbertian confusion, but that is not the end of it. Not being satisfied with the numbers which were made of brass or bronze and which were carried on the men's coats or bag straps, CIE called them in, scrapped them and replaced them with chromium. That did not satisfy the men who wanted this change and reform, and they were called in and replaced by new plastic badges with a white background with the words "Stiúrthoir" or "Tiománaí" in black. Even this was not the end of the weary tale of futile preoccupation with symbols.

For years, for decades, we have been familiar with the layout of the destination scrolls on the double-decker buses, but some expert, probably to justify his existence, decided that they were not good enough and took away the familiar windows with the destination scrolls and replaced them with two windows in front and a small window at the back for the destination scrolls. These destination scrolls used to be manufactured by Hobson Morris and Co. in Walkinstown. They were of good and durable material. These people were so anxious to see a change that they decided not to invite the Dublin firm to tender for the new scrolls but to have them made in England, and having had them made in England, they were installed in the new dual windows in the front and the small square window at the back.

They were hardly in existence before some other wiseacre, probably to justify his promotion to managerial grade, decided that the place names which the people of Dublin have used for years, and will use for centuries, were not good enough and that the scrolls should be in a language which certainly is not known by all the people of Ireland. So the new scrolls which had been bought in England were taken out, in many cases when they were still only a couple of months old, and thrown on the scrapheap and replaced by new scrolls carrying what is alleged to be the Irish form of these names. They were manufactured in England. Perhaps that is the reason why we have some place names which are certainly not in the vocabulary of the people who live in those areas.

I am sure I have asked 20 people could they tell me where there is a suburb in Dublin called Carnán. I put this question to people who are fluent in the Irish language. I put it to teachers, to university graduates and to people who live in this weird suburb called Carnán. Not one person has been able to tell me where Carnán is. The people who are compelled to use this bus have to go through a process of guesswork to discover that it is Dolphin's Barn.

Mr. Dillon

The Barn.

Mr. Ryan

Yes, the Barn. It shows how daft are the people who are running CIE, that so much money should have been wasted on externals, on matters which are of no consequence, while matters which are fundamental to proper industrial relations have been totally neglected. The comfort of the paying public has been of little or no concern to those people.

In order to conclude this miserable list of petty transactions, I want to point out in relation to the long-distance buses that the new scrolls which were in the English language were discarded, in some cases in a matter of weeks of being used, and replaced by new ones in the Irish language. It does not amount to an attack on the Irish language to show how ludicrous and unjustified all this cod is. If a decision is taken to put up destination scrolls in the Irish language, that is a decision which deserves to be approved or disapproved on its merits, and to waste this amount of public money in destroying what we have recently paid for and installed is to generate unnecessary hostility towards the Irish language, and to show a complete disregard for the public who use the service, and for the taxpayer who has to pay for it because it is inefficient. A board which ignore the halfpennies in this manner are a board not to be trusted with the millions required to run such a service.

Another example of the preoccupation of the management of CIE with externals instead of fundamentals is to be found in the works in Inchicore where a vast amount of money, effort and time has been spent in putting down flower beds—no more and no less than flower beds. At the same time as the flower beds have been put down, work study experts, men who could not work in a fit, have been brought in to make sure that the men are driven so hard that they could not possibly look at the flower beds during their working day. They work so hard that they are exhausted when they arrive the following morning, and by the time they are leaving in the evening they can scarcely sit back to appreciate the aesthetic beauty of these flower beds. Whole buildings have been demolished to be replaced by these flower beds. It may well be that some of the old stone railway buildings in Inchicore were not required for production or maintenance purposes in 1966, but they were there and would have stood securely for centuries to come. There was no need to spend money and time demolishing them and replacing them with flower beds which now have to be maintained at great public expense.

Simultaneously with this madness, the level of production at Inchicore has been declining and the morale of the men there has never been worse because they are now subjected to a petty dictatorship and snowed under with unnecessary paper work—duplication, triplication, quadrupling of all forms imaginable. Work study experts have gone into several shops there and have decided that some of the work that has been done both in the railway works and the bus works should be done there no longer, that it should be farmed out to private contractors in Dublin or to British and other manufacturers. In the wood machine shop, for instance, the staff during the past two years has been reduced from 28 people to nine. Fortunately, a number of the men put out of work there have been absorbed in private industry in Dublin. Much of the work which was done at Inchicore quite clearly could not be done there any more and is being farmed out and is now being done by the men who were dismissed on the ground that they should not have been doing this work. These men are employed by private entrepreneurs who are raking in big sums——

Mr. Childers

The Deputy is wrongly informed. There are more men employed in Inchicore——

Mr. Ryan

I am talking about the wood machine shop. Furthermore, at the time several men were declared redundant, CIE undertook to replace these men with modern machinery so that work formerly done by men there would be done by machinery. While they have money for flower beds, for changing colour schemes, for signs and destination scrolls in peculiar languages, they have not the money or the initiative to install the new machinery. Consequently, in the wood machine shop, in the railway works and bus works, many of the permanent CIE staffs spend a considerable part of the day waiting for delivery of stuff from outside manufacturers or from a now disorganised stores department.

For years, the stores of CIE were operated reasonably efficiently by a reasonably small team looking after the ordering, the storing, the invoicing, but that was not good enough for the new CIE hierarchy. They had to introduce a new scheme of storing and so there was superimposed on the men a new hierarchy of minor officials and executives of one kind or another and where one piece of equipment would be processed by at most three documents, as many as ten are now required to handle the same piece. The result is that the men are bothered by work study experts, are interrogated by security officers and intimidated by productivity merchants and they find themselves again and again frustrated in their daily operations because of their inability to get goods from stores. It may be that there is some marginal improvement in the efficiency of the stores. I do not know, but certainly the amount of time lost by the men on the shop floor is appalling and a great deal worse than in days of old.

At the same time as this reign of terror and inefficiency is operating, the men find it is difficult to voice complaints. Some of the men who have been brave enough to speak up about it have found themselves watched and disciplined out of all peace of mind afterwards. Some of them, in fact, have found themselves positively punished. I suppose there are very few human beings who do not some time or another fail to comply with strict rules of behaviour in any society or vocation, but as soon as any complainant in the CIE works at Inchicore does anything which is not strictly in accordance with the letter of some petty rule, he finds himself disciplined or demoted or put into a less pleasant occupation. These things are not said lightly by me. It is not without significance that a Deputy from the other side of the House who represents the same constituency as I, which includes Inchicore, has received the same information. I am sure other Deputies familiar with Inchicore have had similar complaints. I see Deputy Fitzpatrick yonder and I am sure he has heard the complaints from Inchicore echoing down to his place. It is a serious situation requiring immediate remedial action if there is not to be serious trouble in that kingpin of the whole CIE organisation.

I join with others in paying a tribute to the busmen of Dublin for their good humour, for their efficiency, for their skill in very trying circumstances because of modern traffic demands and the pressures to which they are daily subjected. It is important to remember that the ordinary bus conductor or driver in Dublin, and I am sure elsewhere, has a very small outlet for promotion. In fact, the prospect of promotion for such employees is one in every 160. Therefore, the chances of promotion for the overwhelming majority of the people in CIE are practically nonexistent. It is proper to remember that in connection with the recent appointment of new officers in Dublin called district managers.

It would have been fair to invite the men who had borne the brunt of operating CIE services in Dublin during the years to apply for these new jobs, if indeed they were necessary at all, which is another matter. Allowing that they were necessary and desirable, I respectfully suggest it was only proper that the men who had operated the transport system in Dublin during the years should have been invited to apply for these posts which have been filled by people from the clerical grades or from rural bus services. This is an outrage on the busmen of Dublin and they were right to protest at being deliberately overlooked. They were quite right to protest that they were not invited to apply for these posts. None was more eminently suited to manage the various districts in Dublin than a bus driver of conductor who had spent decades in the Dublin service and who had worked as superintendent or district inspector. If these men had been invited to apply and had succeeded in getting these jobs, as we believe many would have done if the competition had been open to them, it would have caused a ripple right down the line with promotion for many men in the Dublin bus services.

The opportunity for promotion is something which is extremely important in developing goodwill and in maintaining morale among any group of working people. That the CIE management should have neglected this and ignored it, that the CIE management should have paid such little regard to the experience which the Dublin busmen had during decades of service, is something that deserves the condemnation of all fairminded people. Indeed, the sad situation appears to have developed now that CIE have appointed district managers who know very little about their jobs and as a result have to be guided along by the superintendents and others who were not given an opportunity of applying for these jobs. The result is that the men who operate the bus services in Dublin have no confidence in the company.

The fact that CIE has had a large number of strikes is well known but like all other strikes, the issues upon which battle is joined are not usually the real cause of a strike. Indeed, the men of CIE deserve to be praised for their forbearance in the face of the constant harrying of their managers. Those strikes are indicative of the trouble. We believe the major situation in CIE at all levels will not be cured until there is an end to the type of petty discipline that has been applied to those men all over the years.

The Dublin bus services are far from what the people are looking for. We are aware that CIE recently have conducted an examination of the movement of passengers on their bus services. I do not know what change, if any, will come about as a result of that but I would ask that greater attention be paid to the people who are living along the routes of the larger bus services in Dublin.

CIE, as the city has expanded, has been obliged to extend bus routes to the new suburbs. The result is that people who live along the routes in what were at one time the suburbs of the city now find themselves unable to board the buses, certainly during the peak periods, and the rush hours in the early morning and late afternoon. It is pitiful to see 60 to 100 people unable to get on the buses at the intermediate stops because CIE are not providing services for them. It is just as important for people to get to work whether they live in the new suburbs and the new housing estates or live in areas where the houses were built prior to the 1914 war. CIE is not providing bus services for the people who live in the older built suburbs. I would plead with CIE to see that an improved service is provided for these people.

CIE must also provide new services to link up suburbs. At present, in order to get from one adjoining suburb to another, which might be not more than two miles, as the crow flies, people have to travel all the way into the city to connect with another bus to bring them out to a neighbouring parish at a cost for the round trip of anything up to 3/-. CIE has argued that link services would not be economic. I wonder what examination has been made to discover whether such link services would be economic or not? CIE has not tried out such link services, with the exception of the No. 18 bus service which links Kimmage with Ballsbridge. That No. 18 route was founded away back at the turn of the century when there was a tram service there. Apart from that service, CIE has done nothing about linking up services. The social advantage of this should be studied by CIE.

At present, and for years to come, anybody requiring housing by Dublin Corporation will get a house in either Coolock or Ballymun. The parents of the people who get houses in those areas, to a great extent, live in the south of the city. For years the children of the people of Harold's Cross, Kimmage or Crumlin were housed in a vast housing area called Ballyfermot, a place bigger than Waterford city. That situation began about 20 years ago and the children of the parents of Kimmage and Crumlin have had their own children. As a result there has been a continual flow as between those children, and grandchildren and the grandparents in Kimmage and Crumlin.

This is not a negligible flow. It is a constant flow. In addition, there is a tremendous flow of workers to and from the Kimmage and Crumlin industrial estates and the other industrial areas to the east of those areas. Although this flow has developed over the past 20 years, there is still no link service between the vast residential areas of Ballyfermot, on the one hand, and the other residential and working areas where those people have to work.

CIE says it would be uneconomic to provide a service to connect these areas. As I say, it has not examined this at all. It would be better if a service were provided as a test service. After all, the provision of a bus service does not entail as large an amount of capital as the provision of a train service. I would, therefore, appeal to CIE to provide these cross-city services. In addition to the convenience which such services would provide for the travelling public, I believe they would reduce the amount of traffic congestion in the centre of the city.

The services provided by Aer Lingus are magnificent and very little needs to be said by way of suggesting improvements. There is a particular aspect of air traffic through Dublin Airport which could be improved, that is, the movement of baggage from the arriving aircraft into the customs room and the clearance of this baggage through the customs. One can understand why in some of the busy airports when a number of aircraft arrive together a considerable time must elapse between the arrival of a plane on the tarmac and the time the baggage arrives in the customs clearance room but it is very difficult to understand why it must take up to a quarter of an hour to pass baggage from one aircraft arriving on the tarmac at Dublin Airport into the customs room. I can understand when a number of aircraft arrive together that there must be a delay but I cannot understand why such a long delay occurs when one aircraft is being handled and processed. Delays up to a quarter of an hour can result. This is a totally unnecessary delay. I make the plea to the people in charge of Dublin Airport to see that this situation is greatly improved.

Mr. Childers

Fifteen minutes is one of the shortest times for clearance of baggage. The Deputy does not know what he is talking about.

Mr. Ryan

The Deputy said he is aware that in busy airports there may be long delays between the arrival of the aircraft on the tarmac and the arrival of the baggage in the customs room because a number of aircraft may be processed at the same time and because of the distance between the plane and the customs room. Where the distance between the plane and the customs room may be only a couple of hundred yards and only one aircraft is being handled, there should not be such a delay. I do not give a hoot what happens in Timbuctoo or anywhere else in the processing of planes. I am concerned with the physical processing of planes and the bringing in of baggage to the customs room at Dublin Airport, and not London or anywhere else.

Mr. Childers

The Deputy knows nothing about it.

Mr. Ryan

The Deputy has, thanks be to God, the same powers of observation as anybody else. It is not an answer to the situation which exists in Dublin Airport to say that it requires 15 minutes or half an hour to move baggage at London Airport, Rome Airport, Frankfurt Airport or any other airport. The sooner the system is improved the better.

The development of our hotel accommodation is something which we are glad to see is receiving a certain amount of attention but I should like to draw the Minister's attention to something about which he may be aware already, that is, the absence of any hotel in my constituency. We must be unique in Dublin south-west in having no hotel. There is probably no constituency which could admit to the same situation.

Mr. P.J. Burke

Have you a site over there?

Mr. Ryan

Yes. Recently we had a very enterprising developer there who was prepared to erect a hotel in the south-west and, accordingly, he drew up plans for it. This would have provided an amenity which was badly needed there and which would have been of great value to the people in Dublin south-west, an amenity which would also be of great value to travellers coming to Dublin because the area in which the hotel would have been situated is one through which the main Dublin-Cork road passes. I am sure it has struck people as strange that, with the exception of a new hotel recently erected near the dual carriageway on the Naas Road, we have no hotel on the main road into Dublin from Cork, Limerick and the south generally. However, this developer was refused planning permission because it was decided that the area was one marked out for industrial development. The area in question was an area marked out for garden industrial development, if I may call it that. It is adjacent to the road at Bluebell. There is nothing in that area which would offend the tender susceptibilities of people who might wish to stay in an hotel there. It has less of an industrial appearance than the approach to Cork which overlooks the Marina and has a view of not only a modern but also, to some extent, of a Victorian industrial estate. Here, in the Bluebell-Inchicore area there is urgent need for hotel accommodation. I can, of course, appreciate that the primary responsibility in this case lies with the local authority and the Minister for Local Government but both refused the application for the erection of this hotel.

I would urge the Minister for Transport and Power and Bord Fáilte to use their good offices with Dublin Corporation and the Minister for Local Government to try to make them change their minds because this hotel would be beneficial to the area. A major hotel on the south-west of the city would have the added planning advantage of stopping some of the traffic on the outskirts of the city and relieving both the parking problem and the flow of vehicles in the centre of the city. I am not arguing this on behalf of any particular developer, it is up to each developer to use his own initiative in his own time, but I was distressed that Dublin South-West was denied the opportunity of having an hotel in an area which has not got one already.

There are many other things upon which I should like to comment but I will leave them for another occasion. I would ask the Minister not to be as truculent as the Chairman of CIE in suggesting that Members of the House do not know what they are talking about. The fact that the Minister made the discourteous and unjustified remark this morning is not surprising in itself; it certainly explains why he appointed Mr. Hogan as Chairman. Apparently the Minister is displaying the same intolerance as Mr. Hogan is. Such uncivil remarks do not worry any Member of the House but what does worry them is that both of these men appear to think that they alone have available to them all the knowledge, experience and expertise to deal with problems of transport and power. We do not think so. The person who eats the meal knows every bit as much about the meal as the chefs and it would do the chefs a great deal of good if they got to know what the diners think about the meal. If they are not prepared to mend their ways to meet the wishes of the diners, then the diners will drift elsewhere. That is what is happening. We see a constant decline in the numbers travelling on the buses and trains and this is unfortunate because it will only snarl up the movement of traffic by increasing the number of privately owned vehicles. If those who are charged with the responsibility of operating the public transport services would be a little more sympathetic and understanding and less truculent, we might get somewhere.

Mr. P.J. Burke

I should first like to say a few words about CIE pensioners from whom I recently received a deputation. Although it is probably not the best time, they are anxious that something should be done for them. As other speakers have pointed out, their pensions are very low. They receive a mere pittance. I appreciate that CIE has not been paying its way and that it has to be subsidised but, nevertheless, I have felt for quite a long time that the weaker sections of the community should not have to suffer in this way. These unfortunate people worked for buttons and retired after long years of service and if they were not lucky enough to have a good family to look after them in their old age, they would be in a very bad way. I know that the Social Welfare Acts came to their assistance by enabling them to receive social welfare benefit at the age of 65 but I would ask the Minister to consider what it would cost the State to do something for these poor old men who are trving to carry on. We owe them a great deal because in those days people worked for very little. I know that I am pushing an open door as far as the Minister is concerned but I promised my colleagues and my constituents to mention this matter this morning. For that reason, I just make that point and I will not say any more about it.

Mr. Ryan

Why did you vote against the last motion?

Mr. Dillon

Why will you not say more about it?

Mr. P.J. Burke

I could talk all day about it.

Mr. Dillon

Then do.

Mr. P.J. Burke

The people on the other side of the House were in office for six years and they did not do anything about it. They made no effort——

Mr. Ryan

We did, of course.

Mr. P.J. Burke

Deputy Ryan said that he would do this, that and the other thing. Of course, political resolutions were put forward but if the Minister for Transport and Power, or the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs. wanted to introduce a Supplementary Budget to increase taxation in order to get money the Opposition would go into the Lobbies and vote against it. We have too much of the Merchant of Venice attitude in this House altogether.

We talk about socialism and we practise Christian socialism when we try to level out things and help the poorer sections by increased taxation on those who can afford it. Very often when we try to do that, the Opposition vote against it. It is all very well to put down pious resolutions when you have no responsibility in Opposition but we must be practical in deciding what to do.

The present Minister may have been abused for various reasons but we would not have any freedom in this country but for his late father. I am very honoured to be here with a man whose father contributed so much to our freedom at a time when a number of our colleagues and friends fought and died for their country. The act Erskine Childers performed when he brought the arms into Howth made it possible to have a revolution here. Nobody can say anything to the present Minister because this nation owes him and those who come after him a good deal.

There has been much talk about staff-management relations in CIE. I always prefer to lead men rather than drive them. The one comment I wish to make is that men who are put into responsible positions in semi-Government bodies as leaders should be trained in human relations and made to realise that to lead rather than to drive is the important thing. Training in human relations has been responsible for bringing harmony, understanding and goodwill between employers and employees A very good employer and a friend of mine told me he employed about 2,800 men. He admitted they sometimes made mistakes in taking a man from the floor and making him a foreman and finding that he was so severe with the men with whom he worked the previous day that they had to transfer him elsewhere while trying to select a suitable man for the post. In nine cases out of ten, it is not the fault of the management that these mistakes are made. Managements must look after administration and the people who are governing the workers are the workers themselves. It is very hard to select a man who will lead and get the best results. That happens in every walk of life.

I was rather uncharitable on another occasion some years ago——

Mr. Dillon

No, no.

Mr. P.J. Burke

——to a particular man in CIE. At this stage I think I did him an injustice because I clashed with him over a strike. I had been working on a dispute as chairman of about 16 unions at that time.

Mr. James Tully

The Deputy was chairman of 16 unions?

Mr. Ryan

In his own mind.

Mr. P.J. Burke

I was chairman of 16 unions associated with CIE and we had conferences going on for quite a long time.

Mr. James Tully

The Deputy was chairman of the negotiating committee?

Mr. P.J. Burke

Well, the negotiating committee.

Mr. James Tully

I should like to see the unions of which the Deputy would be chairman, without being uncharitable.

Mr. Corry

There would be more work at least and fewer strikes.

(Interruptions).

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Order. Deputy Tully has already made his speech.

Mr. P.J. Burke

The Deputy is becoming perturbed. Nobody ever did anything for the workers but Deputy Tully and the Labour Party. I was chairman and I was very proud of the fact. We had a number of meetings before we went to meet CIE but on this occasion I crossed swords very bitterly with the labour relations officer and told him I would have it out with him in this House, and I did. I think I was cowardly in that. When you attack a man in this House who cannot defend himself, I think it is cowardly and I have often regretted it. One sometimes says hard things but years afterwards, on thinking it over, one realise one possibly was unjust. I should have gone and had it out with him instead of raising it here.

Much could be said about labour relations in CIE but even if the company were as good as gold, it is often the people who have just been promoted who cause trouble. This time and motion business may be all right. When I inquired at the CIE works, they told me that at least it is responsible for making the lazy fellow pull his weight as much as the man who works. I do not know if that is true but I accept it. I have discussed labour relations with representatives of CIE and of the workers. I heard complaints about bad labour relations but I found that things have improved considerably at Inchicore. Nothing is perfect, not even this Dáil. The labour relations officer in CIE today is, I understand, one of the most charitable men, very impartial and a man who will listen to anybody. I have had the pleasure of meeting a number of the officials but it is my intention in future to see them more often. A number of them live in my constituency and come to me with various complaints. I am anxious that the Minister—and he can do this without dictating to CIE—should see if there is any possibility of educating men to be leaders instead of drivers of men. I would prefer five volunteers to 20 conscripts. It is much better to have people who will do their work without being driven and without having to be watched all the time, people who realise that they are part and parcel of the industry in which they work.

I am deeply concerned about these matters. If we can achieve good labour relations, we would achieve something worthwhile in building up the spirit of goodwill that we all wish to foster. The Chairman of CIE is a very decent man who has been associated with a number of companies. Sometimes people like myself may say hard things to which they have not given serious consideration. Members of the Board of CIE are drawn from all walks of life. There is an old trade unionist there under whom I had the honour of working for a long number of years and there are quite a number of others there who are well known to me, men of goodwill who would not be associated with injuring anybody or acting uncharitably. The man who has been made managing director of CIE has very good qualities and is a man of charity and goodwill.

However, the point I have made to the Minister is in regard to the possibility of getting the proper type of people to go in as bosses or semi-bosses, or whatever they are. The man at the top cannot do anything, if he has not people who will co-operate with him. If there is a guard in the district—I am talking generally or hypothetically—who is giving a good deal of trouble to the local publicans, who is exceeding his duty and becoming a general nuisance, and if the superintendent speaks to him, he can tell the superintendent: "That is my duty." I am just giving that hypothetical case and I am very pleased I made my colleague, Deputy Dillon, laugh so heartily.

Mr. Dillon

What does the Deputy mean by "giving trouble to local publicans"?

Mr. P.J. Burke

I was speaking about a guard giving trouble to local publicans.

Mr. Dillon

How does a guard give trouble to local publicans?

Mr. Corry

Deputy Dillon ought to know.

Mr. P.J. Burke

Yes.

Mr. Dillon

I should like to know what Deputy Burke means when he said a guard was giving trouble to local publicans.

Mr. Corry

Flick knives and tomahawks.

Mr. P.J. Burke

Deputy Dillon is not as dull as he pretends to be. While the superintendent might be anxious to see that peace and harmony would reign in that place, he cannot interfere with the guard, and the same applies to the chairman of CIE, to the managers and the others.

There is a small group of workers in CIE in charge of level crossings. I had a case yesterday of a man and his wife who are working 24 hours a day on this job for £10 1s 8d a week. It is not fair that such people should be treated in this way. He told me he has £10 1s 8d a week and that he has to do night duty at this level crossing and that his wife has to work during the day. I shall give the Minister particulars of it. Some years ago three people were doing this job. Now this unfortunate man has to do it himself. He has a family and he is trying to carry on; he was told he would get free fuel and uniform but he has not got them. Just because he has not got the trade union movement behind him to make representations for him, he is neglected, That should not be in a Christian society. The chain is as strong as its weakest link. I do not know whether the Chairman of CIE knows about this. This is the kind of thing about which I am concerned. The level crossing to which I refer is not in County Dublin but this man happened to have an association with County Dublin and that is why he came to me.

I heard Deputy Ryan make complaints about the buses and other things. The bus men are doing a very good job and we shall leave it at that. There will always be misunderstandings when people are looking for more money. I would like to have an extra pound or two and I would enjoy it very much. I might even be able to invite my friend, Deputy Dillon, to the Continent. Everybody wants more money, workers, businessmen and others, not alone in this country but in every country in the world.

Deputy Ryan also complained about the baggage department at Dublin Airport. The airport is within my constituency in County Dublin and I am out there very often. I could not speak too highly of the courtesy and efficiency of the whole staff. I do not see any undue delay. When the plane stops, the car comes along and takes off the baggage and the work of unloading them in the baggage room is done very quickly. As far as I can see, there is no cause for complaint because the staff are very efficient. This is one of our semi-State bodies that is doing a wonderful job, even if Deputy Dillon wanted to sell the planes when he got into office. He remembers that.

Mr. Dillon

I am going to talk about it today.

Mr. P.J. Burke

They sold the planes at that time and wanted to build a wall around this country. We got back in time, or there would have been a wall around us. Deputy Dillon did not mind selling the planes. He did not want any international travel. He did not even want a tourist trade. I congratulate the Minister for Transport and Power on the work he has done to encourage the tourist trade which is one of our major national assets. The amount of encouragement he has given to Bord Fáilte is a source of great satisfaction to me.

The ESB is another semi-State organisation in which we have dedicated men and very good workers. My experience of the ESB has always been very good. The staff there are excellent. They do their job. Sometimes, of course, there is a demand for more to be done and for things to be cheaper. I refer in particular to the supply of electricity in isolated areas which involves the laying of a number of poles. I have often made representations to have such installations done at less cost to the consumer and I hope to see the day when the resources of the Board will allow of this. These may be small matters from the national point of view but they mean a great deal to an individual who may have to pay five times as much as persons in another area for an electricity supply.

I want to thank the Minister for his assistance to me during the year and to congratulate him on being now Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, in addition to being Minister for Transport and Power. In his dual capacity, I expect I shall be annoying him in future.

Mr. Dillon

Having disposed of the tomahawks, flick knives and daggers that we were called upon, with reluctance, to discuss prior to the appointment of the Minister to his present post, I think he must be the only unscarred member of the Government. I heard with dismay that he has entered his 60th year. I suppose it is his approach to venerableness that left him immune to assault. However, I congratulate him on his relatively unbloodied state. He seems to have been chosen for his dual post without much competition. In the peaceful atmosphere of his uninjured occupancy of this dual position, I think today we can placidly discuss certain matters for which he is now responsible.

The first of them is this: I concede to the Minister that he has always boasted that he has tried faithfully and honestly to tell the Dáil what the true financial circumstances are of all the semi-State bodies for which he has had the responsibility of answering to this House. Now I want to ask him a categorical question: will he go down through a list of the semi-State bodies for which he answers to his House and, applying ordinary commercial standards to each of them, will he tell the House with respect to each of them their annual profit or loss for the most recent accounting period available to him?

Now, I am not asking him for operational surpluses. I am not asking him for all the euphemistic phrases designed to conceal the true financial position of these establishments. I want to know, after you have applied to them the ordinary commercial canons of depreciation, interest on debenture or loan capital and other outgoings, what is the profit and loss in which the State is involved. I am prepared to say to him that I do not ask of a semi-State company that, to justify itself, it should be able to show an annual surrender to the Exchequer of a surplus. I would be quite content if a semi-State body providing employment and a service which could not be provided by any other means broke even having paid the annual expenses without which it could not survive in the absence of additional Exchequer subsidy.

If the Minister is to claim hereafter that he has recognised his obligation to be frank and honest with the House, he has a very special responsibility as a member of a new Government to begin by giving us as of this date the information I now bespeak.

I may have some critical things to say but I should like to say what people often forget to say that there are things deserving of praise as well. I know that the Minister for Justice must have been involved in any discussions that involved the control of traffic or the circulation thereof in the city of Dublin but I think it is fair to say of the Minister for Transport and Power and, in so far as it is relevant, of the Minister for Justice, that if the elaborate new arrangements for one-way traffic had failed, this House would have rung with denunciations of those who were responsible for it and it is equally fair to say, whether it is the Garda authorities or whoever may have been primarily responsible —doubtless the Minister was called into consultation about them—that, taking them by and large, they have been a success and those responsible for them are entitled to a word of praise and commendation because they certainly would have got the censure of the House if they had caused confusion and delay. I particularly commend them in that they have shown courageous readiness and flexibility in changing them where the original design of the one-way traffic seemed to impose unnecessary inconvenience on the ordinary traveller in the city.

On the whole, I think the signs requisite to control one-way streets are adequate although I think the Minister might do well to draw the attention of his colleagues to the necessity of reviewing them from time to time because while they are, I believe, reasonably adequate for those of us who are accustomed to transport in the city of Dublin, both to tourists and to country people it is not always easy to perceive on entry into a one-way street that it is a one-way street and I think that is a flaw which does call for some amendment if tourists and ordinary rural users of the streets are to be adequately catered for.

The second thing on which I want to commend a body for which the Minister is responsible is something that it astonishes me is not more frequently mentioned in this House, and that is, the publication of Bord Fáilte, Ireland of the Welcomes. That is a most beautifully produced publication. I have seen similar publications in many parts of the world. When one goes to the Council of Europe in Strasbourg, it is not an uncommon thing to see all the tourist bodies in the world showing their literature there. I have not seen in any country in the world, and I do not exclude the United States, Germany and France, a publication superior to Ireland of the Welcomes. I do not know who is responsible for it within the organisation but it is, in my judgement, as fine a piece of publicity of its kind as is being produced in the world today.

But when I see the excellent pictures and read the text and then walk along some of our great Georgian squares and see the hideous, loathsome devastation being done, I wonder has the Minister responsible for Bord Fáilte and tourism not some duty to intervene here. The thing can be done, Sir. Every great capital city has its characteristic. Our capital city is a Georgian city. I want to mention to the Minister and the House and experience to which I now feel free to refer. When I was young. I read a novel of Charlotte Bronte called Villette. That novel describes Brussels in the eyes of a young girl as a sort of miniature Paris, with all the elegance and charm of that great capital. All my life I had hoped to go to see Brussels. In the course of my official duties about two or three years ago, I suddenly found I was summoned to Brussels. I went full of eager anticipation. I found myself in one of the most sordid capitals in Europe. It is the tragedy of Belgium that, while all its provincial cities are architectural gems, its capital city is a dreary, third-rate borough. I remember looking out of my hotel window the morning after my arrival. To my horror, I saw, straight in front of it, a skyscraper identical with one we have in this city, including the Chinese hat. It had obviously been taken out of the same plan. It suddenly dawned on me it was one of these universal plans which are disfiguring the great cities of the world today.

This city of ours was built approximately in the same period as the city of Bath. We have some of the most beautiful Georgian architecture in the world. I do not want to be unreasonable. I was born and reared in one of the loveliest Georgian houses in this city in North Great George's Street. But I know the difficulty of preserving the fabric of such a house. I know the ridiculous impracticality of running such a house as a private residence in these modern times of scarcity of domestic help. But, to me, to see a great Georgian square like Mountjoy Square swept away is unrelieved tragedy. When we know it is not necessary, the tragedy becomes all the greater. Cement Limited—this tribute should be paid to them—purchased a corner site on Fitzwilliam Square. They deliberately made the choice of selecting an architect familiar with the Georgian character of this city and instructing him that, although they required a modern up-to-date office building, he was to be circumspect to preserve the facade of the Square on which the new premises abutted. He has done it with extraordinary skill and distinction. So, a great architectural treasure has been preserved.

Merrion Square is threatened but is not yet in danger. Stephen's Green is destroyed, and I hear with horror that the Government themselves, through the Board of Works, are about to participate in another desecration of three beautiful houses between Hume Street and the headquarters of the Board of Works itself. Surely the Minister, who is responsible for tourism, should concern himself to get certain parts of this city declared to be intangible national monuments, as is done in every other city in the world, so that the character of these parts of the city may be preserved for posterity?

The Minister himself must have a guilty conscience. It is he who sanctioned the outrage on Lower Fitzwilliam Street. Here, I think, the Dáil is entitled to a piece of information which only recently came to my hand. I was the Leader of the Opposition when that matter was in argument. I refer to the destruction of Lower Fitzwilliam Street by the Electricity Supply Board. I made the best inquiries I could of the architectural advisers. There was so strong a volume of opinion amongst a number of responsible architects that it was economically unthinkable to preserve the facade of Lower Fitzwilliam Street that I—I now admit wrongly—forbore to raise this question as energetically as I should in Dáil Éireann. But I did not have the information that since came to me, and, therefore, the blame is not wholly mine. I am told now, and reliably told, that the ESB were offered a fair capital sum for those buildings by a developer who was prepared to say: "I will preserve the facade and convert those houses into residential flats and let the ESB with the capital which I will be prepared to pay for the property transfer their headquarters to some other locale." If that information were available to the Minister, then he was guilty of a vandalistic decision in permitting the ESB to do what has been done in Lower Fitzwilliam Street. If he has that on his conscience, let him clear his conscience as best he can by redoubling his vigilance to see that this can never happen again.

It is part of tourism in this country to exploit to its maximum the unique things we have to offer to those who come to visit this country. I do not know if the Minister knows—I have tried to tell his colleague, the Minister for Finance—that this island in which we live is the richest archaeological treasure-house in Europe. In Northern Ireland the Tourist Board have four archaeological officers on their staff, who are surveying, describing and marking the great archaeological features of Northern Ireland. So far as I am aware, the Tourist Board of Ireland has no archaeological expert on the staff.

In the second place, in Northern Ireland a complete aerial survey of the whole territory has been done which has been reconciled with the peripatetic survey so that every archaeological site is marked and those that have not yet been examined are listed, catalogued and ready for examination. Yet we read in our own newspapers last week that one of the great prehistoric burial sites of Ireland was in the process of being removed to make a road when, fortunately, the farmer who was actually in the process of carving it away to incorporate it in a road communicated with the Museum. Officers of the Museum staff went down and at least conducted some kind of preliminary survey. I believe they have not got at their disposal the means to investigate that site adequately. Unless the farmer is prepared to leave it in the condition in which it was, until such means are available, it may perish forever unrecorded in detail.

Surely these are matters for which the Minister for Tourism, as we shall call him at the moment, must feel some responsibility? He may well ask me: "What do you want me to do?" I will tell him. All I want the Minister for Tourism to do is to bring pressure to bear on the Minister for Finance, who has responsibility for the Office of Public Works, in collaboration with the Minister for Industry and Commerce, in collaboration with the Minister for Agriculture and in collaboration with the Minister for Local Government, all of whom share in this with the Minister for Transport and Power, the desirability of having an aerial survey made of the country. I believe that, at the present moment, there are partial surveys going on, conducted by a whole variety of Ministers, which, in the long run, will cost more than one comprehensive survey which would provide the means of marking, identifying, cataloguing, and, in due course, investigating the archaeological treasures of this country which, it is hard to believe but is certainly true, is the greatest archaeological treasure-house in the whole of Europe. The secret of this fact is that the Romans never got here.

It makes me sick to think that this treasure-house has survived more than 20 centuries and, at a time when we have learned more in the past 50 years of the science of archaeology than was known in the previous nineteen centuries, the mayhem and destruction are proceeding because nobody seems to care. I would urge on the Minister that, where the Office of Public Works has taken in charge ancient monuments, more comprehensive information should be provided for passers-by, by way of notice. Now, they have done it on many such sites. I was recently passing a castle down in south Kilkenny that I often passed before and did not know what it was. I stopped my car and got out and read the Office of Public Works notice which contained the kind of information which was of great interest. However, unless I had known that the Office of Public Works, in some cases, put up such notices, I would not have known where to look for it. Without putting up an unbecoming and disfiguring placard, I think it would be possible to provide some more clear indication that there is an historical summary of the significance of these castles, old abbeys, and so on, available to those who are interested to stop and look at them.

I wonder if it is possible to get the Minister to speak openly and frankly about a matter which I think is of great interest, economically, to this country? I want to say a word about Aer Lingus. I think that Aer Lingus is the best air service probably in the world and when I say "the best", I mean that it measures up to the best: I suppose there are others as good. However, I think that, by and large, the service provided by Aer Lingus is superb. I wonder if we have reached the stage of calm, dispassionate interest in which we can examine one matter with detachment? I remember that, when we came into office—I think it was in 1948—the then Government had recently purchased two Constellation propeller aircraft that took 14 hours to cross the Atlantic and that they were launching out into the transatlantic service. We determined, at the time, that the capital requirements of housing were so urgent that all the available capital we had should be marshalled both for the social purpose of providing housing and for the productive purpose of developing agriculture. I think we were right. It has often struck me since then, incidentally, we did the transatlantic air service an incomparable economic service.

If in those fatal years from 1948 to about 1954. Aerlinte had been burdened with the maintenance and replacement of the obsolescent propeller aircraft which they were then trying to operate, I think they would have ended on the transatlantic transport business with a load of uneconomic, obsolescent debt around their necks from which they would never have escaped. The decision we took was primarily because we felt that the capital priorities were wrong. We felt we had to build houses and rehabilitate the productive capacity of agriculture and industry before we undertook transatlantic air traffic which, as the House will remember, was at the time pretty exiguous: there was not then the great flow to and fro across the Atlantic which subsequently developed.

If we had not taken that decision at that time, Aerlinte, to keep in business, would have had to buy two, three or four more propeller aircraft of the Constellation type. I think they cost about £2 million apiece, allowing for their spare parts, and so on. They became obsolete almost immediately with the opening of the jet age and they would have had to be jettisoned. At the particular time we sold them, we recovered the entire capital cost. The result of our decision was that, when it was determined to reopen the transatlantic air service, it was done on the basis of jet planes. I think it is true to say that Aerlinte never served the Atlantic air trade except with jets. They began to equip themselves with jet aircraft and appeared to do so ever since and they never lost a penny through obsolescence, except through the ordinary obsolescence any transport company meets in the appropriate annual depreciation of aircraft.

It is an interesting thing to remember because it is a lesson for the years that lie ahead. I want to warn the House of this. So certainly as we passed from the propeller aircraft, which took 14 weary hours to cross the Atlantic— I have travelled in one and I know—as compared with the 5½ to 6 hours they take now, so certainly as they change over—within the next ten years—we will have to change to supersonic aircraft.

The economics of operating supersonic aircraft from Shannon on transatlantic routes is a very complicated and difficult matter. If you continue the policy of bringing them into Dublin and bringing them down in Shannon, you have to fly at the uneconomic heights until you get to Shannon and you can only gain the supersonic speeds when you get out of Shannon. You will not be able to avoid the supersonic bang and this is a problem for the future. I would be glad to hear something from the Minister for Transport and Power on this but perhaps it is not possible for him to give a projected evaluation on the position at this time. Perhaps he would in his own mind try to look at the matter objectively, particularly in view of the lessons we may have gained in the past which could be applied in the years that lie ahead in the future development that will become inevitable.

In that connection I want to draw the Minister's attention to the fact that I raised this problem at the Economic Committee of the Council of Europe at which I could get no satisfactory answer. It will be a matter which the Minister will be called upon to deal with in the very near future. I do not know when the Concorde plane is likely to be in service or when the American supersonic plane is likely to be in service but that they are going to be in service is certain. These planes will operate from continental origins, that is to say, from Paris, Rome, Bonn or Brussels.

It is universally agreed in Europe, by all the authorities with whom I have had the opportunity to discuss this, that there must be an international convention so that these planes will proceed below the supersonic speed until they pass over continental Europe. If you look at the traffic maps prepared by the international airlines, 90 per cent of them cross our territory on their way to New York. If that comes to pass without some satisfactory agreement being made on our behalf with continental countries, there will not be a pane of glass left in this country. We will live in a practically permanent supersonic bang. It is an alarming prospect.

Mr. Childers

The Deputy is exaggerating.

Mr. Dillon

The Minister thinks I am exaggerating. I am sure this matter has been examined by the Council of Europe and it is one that should cause this country grave concern and it ought to be tackled now. Remember, it is grossly uneconomic to operate a supersonic plane below the supersonic speed. The earlier the supersonic plane can attain to supersonic speeds the sooner it will become economic to the operators. They regard as a very heavy burden their being restricted to subsonic speed over the land mass of Europe. But they will all attain supersonic speed somewhere, approximately, over this country. This is a matter the Minister ought to start examining now and seek to get some international understanding that supersonic speeds will not be allowed over any part of Europe, including this island.

There was another matter I wished to invoke the Minister's comments on when he always gives the House full information. I was recently told that the Shannon trading estate generated £22 million worth of exports. A question was addressed on this matter of statistics to the Taoiseach and it was answered by Deputy Michael Carty, Parliamentary Secretary, and it was discussed in this House. As a supplementary, I put a question as to what are the imports of the Shannon trading estate. I wanted to find out what the net exports were, whereupon the then Taoiseach snatched the question out of the bland hands of Deputy Carty and said: "Why do you want to know?" and after shaking his gory locks at me, he said that it would not be possible to segregate the statistics. That is unnecessary as we know the gross exports of the Shannon trading estate. I assure the Minister for Transport and Power that the head of the Statistics Branch attached to the Department of the Taoiseach will not find it beyond his skilled capacity to get the other figure. Is there any reason why it should be suppressed? It is one we ought to have and if we have one, we ought to have the other.

I recently visited the Shannon trading estate. Has the Minister been there recently? I was looking at a film recently, "Dr. Zhivago". If the Minister has not seen it, I commend it to his attention. I recommend it also to Deputy de Valera. Has the Deputy seen it?

Major de Valera

No.

Mr. Dillon

Well, do. I could not help feeling as I looked at the sordid appearance of the residential estate that it reminded me of those new settlements sited on the Siberian Steppes, the ghastly uniformity of the terraced houses, the squat blocks of uniform flats and I asked myself: "Can anybody think of anything but providing protection from wind and rain when they are designing these things?" It was a most exquisite opportunity for town planning and for giving an example not only to the country but to the world how a delightful rural community could be constructed on a completely virgin site. Instead of that, we have an assembly of grim, forbidding houses with a population which, of its very nature, most urgently needs every amenity that could help to weld the community together. There are good schools, a nice Catholic church and Protestant church. Everything is there that a community could need. It could have been so beautiful and it is so grim. Surely the Minister might turn his mind to that problem. I understand there is a good deal more residential building to be done. Could something not be done to make it more beautiful aesthetically?

I am told that a certain private development is going on closely adjacent to it. I would be interested, very very interested, if the Minister would tell me whether there was much land bought around the Shannon Industrial Estate at swampland prices in the last decade.

Mr. Corry

It is better than rabbits anyway.

Mr. M.E. Dockrell

Fianna Fáil rabbits.

Mr. Dillon

If there was, who bought the land and if he bought it, has he been selling it? If so, to whom? What did he pay for the land when he bought it and what is being paid for it now? I think that is a statistic the Minister would have relatively little trouble in discovering. It would be of intense interest to this House if the information was made available.

One of the remarkable things about the Shannon Estate is, I think, something Deputy Corry with advantage might take note of.

Mr. Corry

On a point of order I should like to call your attention, Sir, to the fact that the Deputy is disorderly. He is addressing remarks to me and to Deputy de Valera across the House, for which I was called to order yesterday. What is sauce for the goose should also be sauce for the gander.

An Ceann Comhairle

I would be afraid that Deputy Dillon would quote Deputy Corry as a precedent for that.

Mr. Dillon

The only difference is Deputy Corry does not know how to do it and I do.

Mr. Corry

I am just calling the Chair's attention to it.

Mr. Dillon

I have not addressed Deputy Corry. I have said to you, a Cheann Comhairle, it might be well for Deputy Corry to take note of this. That, I understand, is a perfectly orderly observation. I would not dream of addressing the Deputy directly within the Chamber despite 34 years acquaintance. This is a matter which I think Deputy Corry might, with advantage, take note of. One of the objects of the Shannon Industrial Estate was to compensate for the virtual disappearance of passenger traffic at Shannon. One of the objects of the Estate was to generate goods traffic to take the place of the disappearing passenger traffic. Of course if and when Dublin Airport becomes the main jet airport, passenger traffic will disappear from Shannon and the object of the Estate is to substitute goods traffic. The phenomenon is that it never has done so. Eighty per cent of the goods traffic passing between the Estate and the outside world is carried by land and sea. That is an interesting and significant fact and I think, for the benefit of Deputy Corry, the Minister might, with advantage, apply himself to that question when he comes to answer and give us some information on why that trend is taking place and what he believes will be the future of Shannon Airport, if and when jet transport is permitted to use Collinstown.

There are a couple of minor matters I would like to draw the Minister's attention to before I conclude. I agree with the tributes that have been paid here this morning by Deputies to bus conductors and bus drivers. I am often struck by the fact that when I am trying to cross the street that seven times out of ten when the traffic is stopped to let me across, it is a bus driver who stopped it. Incidentally, I do not suppose it comes strictly within the competence of the Minister for Transport and Power—I do not know how far the regulation of Dublin traffic is of interest to him—but I suggest if he is interested, he might mention to the Commissioner that the time is long overdue to establish a Garda at the top of Dawson Street between the hours of 5 p.m. and 7 p.m. every evening. Raging chaos obtains at that junction every evening and if it were not for bus drivers in a large number of cases, I would not be able to cross the street at all. Mind you, for a bus driver trying to keep to a schedule, it is a very exceptional courtesy for him to hold up his bus to invite pedestrians to cross the street. The same is true of bus conductors. Bearing in mind the amount of annoyance and provocation they get their good humour, patience and kindliness would be hard to overpraise.

I want to make this point to my colleague. Deputy Ryan, and to my dear colleague, Deputy the Widow Burke. The fact that the standard is so high places upon those of us who are passengers almost an obligation, when we get some fellow letting down the vast majority of conductors, to tell the management: "You have one dud on such and such a route." Maybe all the lad wants is a talking to but there will be more talk about the impudence that fellow is giving on that bus, because he has no sense, than there will be about the excellent service that 99 other bus conductors have given to people for months on end. Far from feeling that I am doing anything wrong if I draw the attention of the superintendent in charge of the line or of the company itself to the folly of one fellow, who manifestly ought not be a bus conductor, or else has not been properly trained, I am doing a service to the vast body of men who maintain as high a standard as in fact they do.

Now here is a matter I consider of vital importance and to which I invite the very special attention of the Minister for Transport and Power. Time and motion study is a most excellent thing, if conducted prudently. But I want to suggest to the Minister that if time and motion study which, I believe, can redound immensely to the advantage of the working man on the job, is to confer benefits on management and worker, as it can do, the first thing to do is to go to the trade unions and say to them: "Listen; will you give us three or four men who will sit down with us and discuss time and motion study? It has taken the graduates four or five years to study this business. It is a very complex one, but we will sit down with experienced trade union officials and—it may take a week, a fortnight or a month—we will discuss what time and motion study means. We do not want to go on the job to institute the initial procedure for time and motion study without the trade union officials, who will say to the men: `Have patience. I will be here with this fellow all the time and there will be no shifting fellows about or knocking fellows off. We are satisfied that, if you give this fellow a fair chance, he will not only help management, which, of course, he is employed to do, but will make your job easier and he holds out the prospect of getting you a better wage packet at the end of the week'." If that is not done, it will be no use taking a young graduate of the Harvard School of Business or the London School of Economics, or any other management institute, who comes out wet behind the ears, bursting with enthusiasm and convinced that he knows it all, and sending him down to a group of men, some of whom are 45, 50 and 55 years of age, whereupon he promptly proceeds to tell them how they should go about their job. Before he is ten minutes in the works, all the key men will be concerned to prove that he is wrong.

I know because I did this in the Department of Agriculture and some of the most trusted men I had, distinguished public servants, were determined to demonstrate that these people did not know what they were talking about; these public servants were just not going to be pushed around, and I had great sympathy for them, and I did my best with, I think, some pretty good results; I did my best to get some of the senior men to sit down with these and find out how the thing worked. I urged on Urwick, Orr and Co. men, for the love of God, not to go into some principal officer's room and tell him how to run the Department of Agriculture, "because," I said, "if you do, he will kick you out and then you will have to drag me into it". I wanted the principal officer but the Department of Finance said they would give me only an assistant principal. I said: "What is the use? He will be run home like a dog. Give me a principal officer to go around with this fellow." I think the battle was still going on as to whether it should be a principal officer or an assistant principal when I went out of office. I wanted a fairly senior man who would sit down with Urwick, Orr and Co. men and learn what they were trying to do so that they could then go into the assistant secretary or to a principal officer and say: "Look; don't throw this fellow out of the window the minute he comes in. You may agree or disagree with him, but give him a chance. He is not coming in to tell you how to do your job. He knows you know how to do it better than he does. But there is such a thing as doing the job expeditiously." We got a good deal done but we would have got more done had the department of Finance not been so obscurantist with regard to the grade of officer necessary for the job.

That is the preliminary. I know this is a tedious procedure but I am perfectly convinced it is worthwhile and, when the Minister is dealing with Córas Iompair Éireann, or bodies of that kind, he will have to find out if the union can release a man from whatever union, or unions, cater for the men. Two or three, perhaps, of the younger, more open-minded and up-to-date junior officials should, as a preliminary, sit down with the time and motion people and the latter should carry conviction to their minds that time and motion studies will redound to the advantage of the men themselves. They must then go on the floor with these men to introduce them. All that may take time but, in the long-term, it will mean a saving of time, trouble and misunderstanding.

Mr. Childers

I agree with the Deputy that work study involves participation.

Mr. Dillon

That is perfectly true. The Minister may have overlooked something. Persons who have learned the theory of the business and who are quite convinced of the efficacy of what they can do, if they only get the chance, are inclined to forget the human relations element involved. They are inclined to rush older people into new avenues of activity, avenues into which these older people find it difficult to go. We have some experience ourselves. My hackles begin to rise a little when I hear procedures of Dáil Éireann are to be radically changed in order to expedite the discharge of business. My first reaction is to say: "Are we not getting along all right?" When the Ceann Comhairle says there are 126 questions on the Order Paper and we should get on with them, I want to say: "Is that not what we are here for?" He may think time and motion study might get the business done more quickly, and perhaps he is right but, being the tactful man he is, he realises he has to carry the old stagers with him as well as the balls of fire who came into Dáil Éireann at the last election. Now this is something that we will have to do with CIE and every other industry in the country. Possibly, because the Ceann Comhairle is an old trade union man himself, he manages as a rule to achieve the desired results.

Mr. Childers

We might have a Committee of the Dáil to examine an Estimate in order to save time, but that is not wrecking democratic principles.

Mr. Dillon

I am sure the Ceann Comhairle would get restless if we allowed our time and motion study to go on to that but, still, I think there is a lesson to be learned from our own experience.

The last thing I want to say is this: there is no use the Minister closing his eyes to the fact that he is being cast in an impossible role when he is asked to justify to this House the temporary lending by the ESB to the Government of their capital funds, and to justify the ESB in asking the rural subscriber to put down £200 capital before he will get electricity supply. The poor Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, I think, has been put in a similar plight. If the Taoiseach gets up yesterday to boast of how the vast additional Government expenditure has been accounted for—and he says a large part of it was for providing capital funds for Transport and Power and the expansion of electricity—there is no use sending in his Minister for Transport and Power the following day to say that having provided, as the Taoiseach said yesterday, vast sums for capital funds for transport and power by way of loan from the ESB on Monday, we borrowed it all back from them on Tuesday. We ask the Government to pay back the ESB capital, without which the ESB say they cannot do their job of installation, because if they do not, that simply means the poor must suffer while the rich——

Mr. Childers

The Deputy knows the borrowing is quite normal.

Mr. Dillon

Whether or not it is normal is not the test. The test is: have we worked ourselves into a position in which the ESB has lent so large a sum of its capital to the Government that the Government will not repay it and that a rich man who is in a position to put down £200 or £300 will get the light but a poor man, who cannot put down the large capital sum, must burn a candle? That is a ridiculous situation and nobody can justify it.

Mr. Childers

The Deputy knows that that has been put right.

Mr. Dillon

Well, if it has been put right, is it not just that I should provide the Minister for Transport and Power with an opportunity of telling the House and the country how and to what extent it has been put right?

I hope my contribution today will carry reassurance to some of my younger colleagues, that I am not usually contentious. I would assure them that even if on tempestuous occasions I say things that might seem offensive, I did not mean them. If certain feelings were hurt, I apologise.

Mr. Corry

I am sorry I have not with me my file on Deputy Dillon, the wise sayings he has used in this House, and the prophecies in which he has indulged over a long number of years. I can assure you that file will be worth money some time. For example, there is his prophecy that the land bought for Shannon Airport and the industrial work there would be turned into a home for rabbits within two years— that is exactly what he said. I heard him inquiring now as to what the land cost. But I would have to take a little time to look this up and I shall leave it over. I have here what actually is Deputy Dillon's prophecy and his political godson's statement on that Estate here in the House within the past three weeks. However, I shall go into that later.

Mr. Dillon

The Deputy will not think it discourteous, then, if I go out and get my lunch?

Mr. Corry

I am sure the Deputy will read it, and if he spent a day going back on all those good things he said in connection with the beet factories etc., he would be amused. I have them all filed and I often get an evening's amusement reading through them.

Mr. Dillon

I do much to suffer for Ireland but to listen to the Deputy is more than I can do.

Mr. Corry

However, on this Estimate, I should say I have the utmost sympathy for the Minister for Transport and Power who is here in charge of a whole lot of semi-State organisations in respect of which, due to legislation passed in this House, he has no function and on which he cannot answer any questions. Every kind of a queer dig-up we have tried from time to time has been handed over to the Minister for Transport and Power. For example, I do not know what Bord Fáilte is costing the taxpayers and the ratepayers of this country but I do know that if we in Cork county look for any money from Cord Fáilte for amenities, we do not get it. If the public authorities in Cork county, both urban and rural, would put their heads together, if the amount of money they are voting into this institution each year were laid aside and they said: "Well, we will hold a ballot as to which of those places we will spend money on this year", it would be the wisest job they could do, and let Bord Fáilte exist on what the taxpayers and the ratepayers pay out. There are certain favoured areas and districts but I see no reason why the ratepayers of Cork county, both urban and rural, should be contributing each year in their rates towards some folderol thought out here in Dublin, When no money is spent beyond 40 miles of Inchicore.

Some time ago here I had to deal with some of the activities of CIE in my constituency. I have not yet got from anybody the reasons why any semi-State body, which has to get a subsidy each year from the taxpayers, should be allowed to use foreign iron and steel in buildings on their property. If we as farmers did that, we would immediately lose the subsidy we get for our haybarns and buildings. That subsidy would not be paid unless we used Irish corrugated iron and Irish steel. Why this body that gets £2 million from us each year is allowed to bring in foreign stuff and put it up in their sheds and buildings beats my comprehension. It is time it was stopped.

So far as I can find out, CIE are entering into a conspiracy with the Cork Harbour Commissioners to close down the railway line from Cork to Cobh. Some years ago that was tried out and it was the cause of long discussions here. A large proportion of the scrap-iron that goes into Irish Steel, and the finished product that leaves Irish Steel, is conveyed by CIE. That railway line is causing a lot of worry. The railway line running from Glanmire Station to Dunkettle is blocking the building sites of the Harbour Commissioners and their slobland because they cannot get out directly to the road. I suggest that for that reason alone a bridge costing £250,000 was erected from Haulbowline Island across to the mainland on to a road that would cost at least £¾ million, because it would cost that amount to put that boreen into any shape to take traffic. I say that was done deliberately in collusion between CIE and the Cork Harbour Commissioners for the purpose of closing down the Cork to Cobh railway line.

On these questions CIE have a very peculiar interest. They started carrying road freight to feed, as they said, the railway stations, but immediately the road freight manager started in active competition with the rail freight manager, and between the two of them they built up a pretty kettle of fish. I suggest to the Minister that it is about time we started a major operation, namely, the abolition of the bulk of his freight transport Act, and the abolition of the law by which a man if he carries freight, or even his own goods, is committing illegal acts according to the provisions of our laws. I say frankly that the load which is being placed by these transport Acts on the rural community is one which the rural community can no longer bear. This is unjust to a farmer who is being ground down on the one side by the anxiety on the part of the Government to keep down food prices —which is a natural inclination—and on the other, by this extravagant, lunatic freight monopoly. Only last week we had to go over to the Irish Sugar Company to fight about the extra rate to be charged on our beet by CIE, and the money doled out to us in pence. The whole thing is upside down.

I want the Minister to explain this to me. A young man started out on 1st September 12 years ago with £400. He bought a lorry on hire-purchase. He then had to pay for the right to put that lorry on the road to haul merchandise or to haul farmers' goods. He had to buy what is known as a plate for that lorry. It cost him £700. He then had to compete with CIE. At the end of ten years—two years ago—he had to pay £1,250 for another plate for the right to put his lorry on the road to haul goods for farmers. Even with all that, he has four men employed and he is paying a far higher rate than CIE are paying their drivers. He has purchased his own house, is maintaining a wife and four children and making money.

Last year, a little industry in which we were interested in East Cork invited tenders for the haulage of 3,000 tons of peas from the farms to the factory, a distance of six or seven miles. Three tenders were submitted, one from CIE, one from the Cork Transport Company and one from the local hauliers' association. The local hauliers' association hauled the 3,000 tons of peas for 25 per cent less than the CIE tender and gave complete satisfaction. Our output increased this year and we invited tenders for the haulage of 4,500 tons over the same distance and the local hauliers' association tender was 36 per cent less than that of CIE.

Perhaps the Minister can explain to me how a private individual or a private firm can do that and tell me at the end of the season that they made more money on that job than they had made on the beet campaign. I should like to know how it is that these people can pay their workers and rear their families in comfort while we have to pay £2 million or £3 million per year to subsidise this national transport farce, this old man of the sea which is such a heavy load on the unfortunate people of the country. It is time it ended. It is time the Minister, who has responsibility in this matter, gave his particular attention to it. I know he has the necessary courage, so let him go and say: "Very well; I shall scrap all those licences and leave the roads free so that a man can haul his goods and will not be hindered by having to pay exorbitant licence fees."

If the Minister thinks the agricultural community will stand for it, he is making the biggest mistake he has ever made. In previous years we have found ourselves, when the beet campaign began, with lorry drivers having to go into CIE stations and empty the wagons of beet and take it to Mallow station before it went rotten during a strike between the idlers and the superidlers of this country. These are facts and the Minister should make an effort to ascertain them for himself. I have put my case and I am prepared to back it up with the tenders I received as chairman of East Cork Foods and with the figures for the conveyance of the goods. Next year, please God, we shall be looking for tenders for the haulage of 20,000 tons and we do not want to see gardaí at every farmer's gate, watching and crawling in case the traffic laws are not carried out for the benefit of CIE.

We are being asked to prepare for entry into the Common Market. Does this lunatic system of public transport fit in with Common Market conditions? If our goods are to compete with those of the foreigner, we are entitled to be put on something like the same basis but unfortunately in this country we have to watch semi-State bodies become laws unto themselves. If these bodies want to put up a building, they will use foreign materials but throughout the country we have factories producing the very same materials. The materials must be imported from England for CIE and the wind-up is that we find they can compete with nothing, that they have no intention of being competitive, that they do not give two hoots and that they think they own the world.

There are three or four perches of ground down in a little country village, Glounthaune, in County Cork. CIE fancied that piece of ground somehow or another. They made out somehow or another that they had some right to it. It was the only playground the neighbouring children could use during the past 60 years and lo and behold, CIE had it up for public auction during the past month. I do not know who bought it; I do not know who would be fool enough to buy it; but the fellow who was fool enough to buy it will walk into something CIE will not get him out of. I promise him that, if CIE must act in that way, they should stay quiet so that the people will not see or hear them.

I warn the Minister again that the agricultural community will not put up with this ridiculous transport system any longer. We have no intention of doing so: we have no intention of putting up with it and we consider it most unfair to drag out the Garda Síochána to do the business CIE employ them to do. It is bad enough for CIE to have what they call their intelligence system at work without dragging in the Garda as well.

We had a row here not so long ago about the closing down of the railway line in Cork. I examined the thing for myself and saw what was happening. I saw an attempt made to close that line and the unfortunate position the Minister was placed in here by a certain gentleman who, if I were the Minister and had been dished out the information supplied to the Minister at that time, I would kick out within 24 hours and make no bones about it. The Minister was sent in here to say that a most efficient bus service operated between Cork and Cobh. The fact is that a bus had not been seen in Cobh for 25 years. I do not know what the gentleman concerned meant by making that statement but the records of the House will bear out what I have said.

I had occasion to listen to Deputy Dillon here today when he asked about the amount of land purchased in Shannon and the price paid for it. I have the memory of Deputy Dillon solemnly warning this House of the rabbits which would be the only tenants of Shannon Airport. Deputy O.J. Flanagan, speaking in this House on 2nd November, 1966, at column 157 said:

I wish to make reference, and I do so with great pride, to the Shannon Free Airport Development Company. I have spoken on the activities of this company in this House on numerous occasions. On every possible occasion, I have expressed the opinion that here we have clear and ample evidence of a company making great strides and showing progress. If I am asked what is meant by progress, I have to say I measure progress by what I see. As a result of the activities of the Shannon Free Airport Development Company, I have seen building; I have seen factories; I have seen workers working; and I have seen good pay packets. To me that is progress. I am also impressed by the fact that in 1960 there were fewer than 500 people employed at Shannon in these industries; in 1961, there were close on 500; in 1962, over 1,000; in 1963, 1,500; in 1964, slightly over 2,000; in 1965, just 3,000; in 1966, almost 3,500.

So much for Deputy Dillon's prophecy that the only tenants in that place would be the rabbits. I promised him I would find that reference. I had some difficulty in poking it out but that is it. I suggest to Deputies, who do so much moaning about unemployment, that they should have a look at this.

Whilst I come in here and abuse the Minister with regard to some things, I want to congratulate him on that. I want to congratulate any person in this country who can provide employment for our boys and girls. That, to my mind, is the best work any Minister or any Deputy can do. We should keep our people at home, provide employment for them and also provide decent homes for them. I should like to congratulate the Minister on that particular portion of his work. As I said, the Minister is unfortunate. He is faced with presumed responsibility for all those things. He has to get up here and endeavour to defend some iniquitous system regarding CIE freight charges.

I ask the Minister now to get to work on this. I know he has the brains and I know he has the intelligence to get to work on it. In God's name, take that load off the backs of the agricultural community and have it taken off before we have any competition in the Common Market. The charges of this subsidised State freight company are 36 per cent higher, by tender, than the charges of the ordinary people who had to pay anything from £750 to £1,250 for the licence to go on the road. These people have to go into competition with CIE but they can still beat them by 36 per cent on the charges.

The Minister should certainly take note of these things. We cannot put up with this. The Minister should, in my opinion, endeavour to get rid of that system. I have a number of other matters which I should like to speak on but I do not wish to take up the time of the House any further. I am giving the facts, as I know them, and I am asking for a remedy. I hope that when this Estimate comes up next year I will see that remedy under way or in operation. If it is not, we will have to take a shorter method of dealing with it.

Mr. M.E. Dockrell

I wish to make a few observations on this Estimate. The ESB comes within the purview of the Minister for Transport and Power. I should like to say that the country deserves well of the ESB. They are a very efficient body. They provide electricity and maintain their standards very well but I have a crow to pick with them. Every merchant, certainly every hardware merchant in the whole of this country, in every village and town, feels the effect of the competition which the ESB enter into with the public's money. I am referring to the fact that the ESB, which was primarily set up to provide electricity for the people of Ireland, and for which public money has constantly been supplied down through the years, indulge in selling electrical goods in direct competition with the electrical merchants of the whole of Ireland.

The ESB can, by virtue of their position, by virtue of the fact that they receive the taxpayers' money, put up very big premises and they can sell in very keen competition with the merchants. Sometimes that competition is more than keen: it is unfair. They have a tremendous advantage over any merchant because of course they have only to put the cost of the article on the bill. They have not the difficulty of collection which the ordinary merchant has to cope with. Indeed, the same can be said with regard to bad debts which any merchant may encounter from time to time. Therefore, it is an unfair form of competition for the ESB to carry on. They should not be using public money, money put up by the taxpayers, for the purpose of selling goods in competition with taxpayers who are themselves making their contribution to the money which the ESB receives.

Mr. Childers

I do not want to interrupt the Deputy but he does know that the ESB arrange with certain retailers to have the cost of their apparatus included in their ESB bills?

Mr. M.E. Dockrell

Even if they do, they do not pass over any of the profit to the shop concerned. It is a form of competition which is not really fair and by that I mean on the principle of public moneys being used in competition with private firms and individuals. I understand that the various electrical merchants bodies have made repeated representations to the ESB on that question down the years but without success. If that were followed in various other lines, the business community would find themselves in an extremely difficult position.

I want now to refer to Aer Lingus and some of the other companies. As has been mentioned here this morning, Aer Lingus is a very fine company. When I was Lord Mayor, I had frequently to deal with matters connected with Aer Lingus and I could always detect the sure and steady hand of Aer Lingus in these matters. Anything they undertook to do they did well; their messengers appeared at the right time and everything went smoothly. Anything they handled was always efficiently carried out.

Somebody referred to the delays in connection with luggage arriving at Dublin Airport. I experienced this myself. Sometimes when one gets off a plane, the luggage arrives very quickly but at times one has to wait for what seems an undue period. I imagine that this question is engaging the attention of Aer Lingus. When several planes land in quick succession, these delays seem to occur in regard to the luggage reaching the main hall. I would ask Aer Lingus to go into this matter carefully.

Another matter I want to mention is that on last Thursday I found it necessary to leave London as early in the morning as possible and I came by the first available plane. The first available plane on that morning arrived in Dublin at ten minutes past eleven. There was no earlier plane. The air service between London and Dublin could be better than that and it should be possible to get in before 11 o'clock. This must be an inconvenience to some business people. I know that at other times of the year planes come in earlier in the morning. The plane I was fortunate enough to get on was very crowded and there was a full complement of passengers which shows that there is a demand for that plane and very probably a demand for an earlier one. I mention those two points for the attention of Aer Lingus but I should like to pay tribute to their great courtesy, efficiency and reliability.

This year I took my car to England on the very excellent service operated by the B and I. I had never taken a car that way before and, in fact, it was many years since I had taken a car across. Again, everything was done very well. It is a comfortable and very pleasant method of travelling but because cars have to be put in the hold of a ship it takes some time to unload them. There is a slow and cumbersome method of lifting the cars up on the crane. This operation is done very efficiently and very well, but it takes a long time, and some passengers are held up for several hours waiting for their cars to be brought up. I am not mentioning this to the Minister as a complaint but to illustrate that it is very important to have specially-built ferry ships.

I have not been able to use the Holyhead service. On this occasion it would not have been possible for me to have taken my car by that route— as a matter of fact, I think the service was off—because Liverpool was the most convenient port for me. It is obviously a tremendous help to our tourist trade to have a special motor ferry service. Anyone who has waited, as I have waited, and who has seen other people waiting, whilst cars were laboriously taken up from the depths of the ship will realise that it would be a tremendous incentive to people to bring their cars here if we had proper ferry ships. Wherever possible, this objective should be kept in view by the companies as being something which is very desirable, that is, driveon motor ferries. I know that the cost of these ships is very great and it is not a decision to be taken lightly but it certainly makes a tremendous difference to the tourist who is enabled to get away from the quayside with much less trouble.

Deputy Dillon referred to the ESB buildings in Dublin. It is certainly a great tragedy that we who have this incomparably beautiful 18th-century city of Dublin should, in certain cases, be throwing away this heritage. I believe that it would have been possible to have maintained the facade of those buildings in Fitzwilliam Street. Certainly, we shall lose the very proud reputation we had of being the best capital city in Europe from the point of view of 18th-century buildings. Wherever possible, we should hold on to those. Being not unconnected with building, I know that progress must come: we cannot just stagnate. We must modernise our city but we should be very careful that in doing so, we do not lose what has been Dublin's greatest asset not only from the tourist point of view, probably, but certainly from the point of view of being an example of what beautiful design and building can give us. Only when we lose the beauty of these squares and buildings do we realise what a valuable heritage has gone. Some of the buildings must go, especially the old and decrepit ones which are beyond repair but there are many that have been pulled down in the past few years and others, I understand, scheduled for demolition which it was really not necessary to pull down: they could quite easily be maintained.

I am a member of Dublin Corporation which with its officials is sometimes blamed for permitting this to happen but it is extremely difficult for the corporation to take up an attitude of refusing to sanction the erection of modern buildings. The pressure on the corporation and its officials is very great. This is a matter which would need to be keenly appreciated at Cabinet level and I am quite convinced there is no real sympathy regarding the preservation of 18th century Dublin at Cabinet level or, otherwise, many of the things that have been done would not have been permitted. It is no use to hide one's head in the sand and try to put the blame on Dublin Corporation and its officials, councillors and aldermen. The Custom House is the place where the Ministry of Local Government is housed and the corporation and the Ministry are in close and constant contact. The Minister is all-powerful and it would be extremely difficult for any group of corporation officials to stand out on a matter which they know in their hearts would not get any sympathy at Cabinet level. To my mind, that is the most serious aspect of the matter because Dublin Corporation can take up the attitude of jealously guarding the 18th century monuments of Dublin. Sometimes it does but it has not had any lead from higher up or from the people who ultimately control the officials of Dublin Corporation.

Ireland is a very small country and it is very hard for officials to get away from the sort of power of Government and of public opinion that is engendered by a Government. It is very hard to expect those officials to feed the councillors with the information they would need while knowing that information was not very palatable to the Government. Having said that, I should like to see an attitude in the very highest places at executive level which frankly said: "These buildings are worthy of maintenance and worthy of having the Government spend money on them and on their preservation". Ultimately, it is public opinion working through the Government and in and on the Government that will maintain for future generations this very beautiful heritage we have in Dublin.

Mr. Childers

This matter does concern the Government. They have already shown their interest in this kind of property by restoring and maintaining the Royal Hospital, Kilmainham and restoring the public rooms in Dublin Castle. Sums running into six figures have been spent.

Mr. M.E. Dockrell

They could not let Dublin Castle fall down about their ears and it was a long time before they spent any money on the Royal Hospital.

Mr. Childers

The Deputy does not need to be mean about it. They have shown their interest in preserving and restoring monuments.

Mr. M.E. Dockrell

Yes, through the Board of Works, but where something is outside the actual purview of the Government they have not shown that there is any climate of opinion particularly favourable to the maintenance of 18th century Dublin as such. They seem to have a sort of laissez faire attitude about it. Obviously it would only have required a stroke of the pen to have saved those houses at the corner of Merrion Square. That could have been done. Other countries spend vast sums of money on these matters. The Germans rebuilt Nuremberg exactly as it was from the ruins of that city. These things can be done.

There is a concert hall in Vienna and it is not permissible to put a nail into the structure for fear it would alter it and its acoustics. That brings a slightly different element into my argument, but they are so anxious to maintain things as they are that they will not allow even that to be done. It would be a good thing if we were as anxious to maintain this 18th century Dublin, but we are not. The Government are not anxious to maintain it. I do not say they want to get rid of it, but there is no particular sympathy for the maintenance of these buildings, and the people who wish to have them maintained are regarded somewhat pityingly as starry-eyed enthusiasts who are trying to maintain something which in this day and age should be done away with. That appears to be very much the official attitude.

Work has been done on the Castle, but as I have said, it would have fallen down otherwise, and apparently the Royal Hospital at Kilmainham was in such a bad condition that the public are not allowed into it. I might say that in spite of the fact that it is in my own constituency, I have never been inside the gates and I would have to get special permission to look around it. When I was Lord Mayor, I would have liked to go there and look at the Lord Mayor's coach and things like that which are of interest to any occupant of that office, although Heaven forbid that he would ever have to go out in it again. I believe these things are stored up in Kilmainham but the Royal Hospital, Kilmainham, would have collapsed if the work which has been done on it had not been carried out.

What I am putting in a plea for is a sympathetic view towards the preservation of the buildings which are of great artistic interest in Dublin. We cannot maintain everything. Nobody suggests that, but certainly from a tourist point of view we have a city which is very beautiful and has been very beautifully laid out. I do not wish to hold up the House any longer on that, but I wanted to make it clear that it is very difficult for Dublin Corporation to stand out alone in a matter like this. I know there are many of the officials of Dublin Corporation who feel that not enough is being done to preserve some of the ancient and very beautiful buildings in this city.

Mr. Corish

I have pared down my speech to the minimum and I do not propose to cover the whole field over which the Minister has jurisdiction but merely to take this opportunity, and as quickly as I can in order that he may get in this afternoon, of bringing to his notice the uneasiness that exists at Rosslare Harbour amongst the staffs of CIE and British Railways.

On a similar occasion last year, I had good reason to congratulate those concerned with the improvement of Rosslare Harbour, but unfortunately it seems that these improvements are not going to give the results that people in that area hope for. There is grave uneasiness among the staffs of CIE and British Railways in regard to the future of the port because of the inadequacy of the ships in operation down there. Last year there was the St. David, which is a pretty good boat. There was the St. Andrew which, I am told, is now sold. I am also told this is to be replaced by a boat called the Duke of Rothesay, but this still has to be converted at a cost of £250,000 and the money for the conversion of this boat has not yet been approved.

I should like the Minister to concern himself about this matter. While the tourist season has just finished, preparations have to be made for the coming season. Booking cannot be made until the sailing schedules are arranged and this cannot be done until the port knows what boats will be available. I think the Minister has, like myself, an appreciation of the importance of Rosslare and the function it performs in regard to its car ferry service. It has been for quite a long time the main port for the transportation of tourist cars. There has been a vast improvement in Dún Laoghaire in recent times and it will have an advantage over Rosslare in that it can take bookings because its schedule can be prepared.

I should like to discover whether or not there is an effort to cut out Rosslare Harbour altogether. As it is, there is a certain amount of employment but the conditions there are militating against the use of this port by visitors. The charges appear to be excessive for the transportation of cars. From Rosslare to Fishguard a certain type of car costs £11 5s, but from Dover to Ostend, the charge is only £6 10s. I know there is a big difference between the two journeys. However, as I have said, the main boats that were used last year were the St. Andrew and the Slieve Donard, which was a cattle-boat, and I am informed that the facilities on this boat for both the people and the cars were not such as would induce foreign visitors to use this car ferry service very extensively. There is a friend of mine who was in touch with a New Yorker who said quite plainly that if facilities were not improved at this port, he would not use it any more.

I should like the Minister to concern himself also about Rosslare Harbour as a cargo port. It does appear again that cargo is being diverted, for what purpose I do not know. Rosslare Harbour can be used all the year around. If it is confined to tourists and to the transportation of motors cars, it can only be used for six months of the year. Therefore, cargo traffic is needed for full employment of those employed by British Railways and CIE. Perhaps the Minister would be able to tell me whether or not this is calculated policy on the part of British Railways to divert cargo from this port. I should like an assurance from him that the Rosslare-Fishguard route can be guaranteed so as to safeguard the employment of so many people there. As a result of the deterioration of Wexford Harbour, Rosslare is the principal port on the southeast coast. It is the port nearest to Britain. It is nearer than Waterford, Dublin, Dún Laoghaire or any port one cares to mention. Having regard to the programmes for economic expansion and for general development, it would be stupid and foolish not to utilise Rosslare, which is the port nearest, not only to Britain, but to the continent.

I appreciate that the Minister will not be able in his reply to deal with the matters to which I have referred and which have been reported to me but I should like to give him notice that I will be communicating with him in this matter. If in his reply he could mention the Rosslare-Fishguard route, I should be obliged.

There are only one or two other comments that I should like to make. Again, these are not of a general nature but of particular instance. We all know the difficulties CIE have. We all are aware that the objective of the former chairman and, indeed, of the Government, that CIE would break even within a certain number of years never materialised and it does not appear to us as if it will materialise. The House is aware of the attitude of the Labour Party towards CIE. We believe it to be a service and that it will always be a service and that it would be foolish to think that in the next five or six years it could, as hoped, break even.

I want to complain about the attitude of CIE in regard to the fares charged for groups, whether of schoolchildren or hurling, football, soccer or rugby fans. That attitude seems to be very stupid. I had an example recently where a school in Wexford made application to CIE for reduced fares for a few dozen schoolboys of secondary standard who wanted to visit a science exhibition in Dublin. A train which, in my experience, would normally have about a 15 or 20 per cent complement was leaving Wexford at 7 a.m. The application for reduced fares was refused. CIE did not seem to be interested in filling the many empty seats they had with schoolboys of 14 to 16 years of age. I do not know whether this is correct or not but I am told that the persons concerned were so annoyed with CIE that they did not even inquire about a CIE bus. They may have done so and it may have been the case that they could not get special terms. The result was that they had to send to Waterford for two buses to bring these schoolboys to Dublin. Private enterprise got the benefit that public enterprise could have got if there had been a fair sales policy on the part of CIE. Let me say, so that this can be checked, that this happened in Wexford town and as far as I know the school concerned was the Christian Brothers.

CIE are behaving a little better with regard to excursion fares to Dublin for football matches and other sporting fixtures but it would be much more attractive from the point of view of CIE and of travellers if they were to introduce attractive fares for the journey between Cork and Dublin, Limerick and Dublin, Galway and Dublin or Wexford and Dublin. They seem to throw money away on occasions like this. People may say that there are plenty of cars at the present time but people would find it much more attractive to pay £1 for a ticket on a train from Wexford to Dublin rather than travel in their cars at, probably, the same price.

Finally, I should like to ask if the Minister would make a statement with regard to a recent piece of legislation that was approved by this House that had reference to facilities for, amongst other things, the establishment of caravan parks. There are people who are concerned to know when the scheme of grants for the establishment of caravan parks will be introduced. This would be the appropriate time because preparations must be made a long time in advance for the tourist season.

Each area of the country has a potential as far as tourism is concerned and emphasis should not be put on any particular area, whether it is Wexford, Killarney, Donegal or Cork. There are some places that traditionally are regarded as beauty spots and tourists are directed to them. It is wrong. I am sure that trend is being corrected by the regional councils that are being established. Every single county has something to offer the tourist. If money is to be provided by the taxpayer to advertise beauty spots every area should get a fair crack of the whip and emphasis should not be laid on particular areas.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Dublin): I intend to be brief as I realise the Minister is anxious to reply to the debate. I intend to refer only to one aspect of the Vote, that is, CIE.

The Minister said that the year ended 31st March, 1966, was a disappointing one for CIE. I am sure the Minister was referring to the deficit incurred last year. The matter to which I wish to refer in connection with CIE is the disappointment that the people of Dublin have experienced over the past number of years due to successive strikes in CIE. The people of Dublin are paying very high subsidies for a service which, in effect, is a social service. It is only as a last resource that the people of Dublin should be deprived of that service. Imagine the consternation and hardship caused in places like Ballyfermot or Crumlin on the morning that a bus service is withdrawn. There may be 34,000 persons wishing to travel to work. These people cannot very well miss work because they have not got the resources to offset the loss of money involved. Motorists in Dublin behaved admirably in helping pedestrains when the bus service was withdrawn this year.

The situation at the CIE Inchicore works has been discussed at length during the debate. There is dissension and dissatisfaction at the works. There are approximately 2,500 persons employed there. I live amongst these people and I have never seen so much dissatisfaction as exists there. I have often asked workers there what is wrong. Invariably, the answer is the complete lack of human relationships between management and workers. I am not going to tell the manager how to run CIE because he knows more about it than I do but if there is one message that I could give him it is that he should try to promote human relationships between management and workers in the organisation. Several of the workers concerned have been in that employment for a considerable length of time. There are people who have worked in CIE for the past 30 years who have told me that they would prefer to leave it and be without a job rather than remain in that employment. When men like that say things like that it is an indication that something is wrong. I am not putting all the blame on the management but the management must carry some of the blame for the animosity and lack of co-operation which exists between the two sides.

I often wonder if CIE realise that there is a credit squeeze in operation which every section of the community has had to tolerate for the past two years. I am told that there are projects of an extravagant nature which could be deferred until the financial situation is easier. At the moment flower beds are being laid out at considerable expense, for what purpose I am not altogether sure. They are also engaged in building a mast pylon where they can advertise CIE. This is something that they have been indulging in for the past 11 months I suppose at considerable expense. I believe this could be postponed. I do not think a project like this is that urgent at this time. CIE must realise we have a credit squeeze and must play their part in minimising costs. Every section of the community has suffered a set-back, and surely it is only right that CIE should fulfil their obligations and postpone unnecessary projects at this time?

The problems existing in CIE could be rectified easily if the management overlooked to a certain extent small errors made by the employees. A lot of this has been created by the introduction of work study. We all agree work study must come and that it will be introduced into every business in the country, but we must consider the method of its application. With people who have been working on a job for a long time, it is much harder to introduce work study than it is for younger groups of workers. If the management were more tolerant in the introduction of work study and did not try to get 100 per cent performance from the long-established workers, this system could be introduced in CIE for the betterment of the company.

I should like to congratulate the bus drivers and conductors in Dublin. They are one section of CIE who give output. Anyone travelling on the buses realises how strenuous and nerveracking the job of driving a bus in Dublin is. The same is true of the conductors. I believe there is greater output from the drivers and conductors than in any other part of the country. I shall confine myself to CIE. I had intended bringing up other matters, such as the deplorable state of the canals, but I will not go into them now since the Minister is waiting to get in. I conclude by wishing him every success in dealing with the additional assignment he has received.

Mr. Coughlan

From my previous experience of dealing with this Department, I am afraid I am making a hopeless case, even though I can prove beyond yea or nay the inefficiency of the Minister in running this Department. I do not believe there is any Department in any country of the world in which public representatives are treated with such indifference. We public representatives, who are closely in touch with the activities of this Department, get no consideration, good, bad or indifferent, because of the ineptitude and lack of approach on the part of the Minister. With this in mind, I make my contribution with a certain amount of doubt as to whether the advice given will be accepted in the manner in which it is presented.

I shall confine myself to three of the most important aspects of the Department — tourism, CIE and the ESB. Tourism is reported to be our second greatest industry. Because of this we find the magnates and the vultures allowed to come into this country and build luxury hotels. Despite the opposition of the local planning authorities, they are given carte blanche in respect of sites for building purposes which have been denied to local enterprises. I have in mind particularly the developments that took place in Killarney, despite the opposition of Kerry County Council and the Kerry planning authority. Hotels were built there by foreigners on sites denied to local applicants. The building of these monstrous structures ruined the whole aspect of the area. Because foreign money came in, they were allowed to build.

Something similar happened at Shannon Airport, in which I have a great interest. There, an American firm were allowed to build a hotel right at the door of the terminal. No other person in Ireland would be allowed to do it. The land was not advertised nor were hoteliers and other interested people contacted. Nobody knew anything about the erection of this hotel until it was in progress. We all think in Limerick and Clare that underhand, backdoor methods were used by this firm to obtain the licence from the Minister. As we all know, the cream of the hotel business is bed and breakfast. Lunch and everything else does not pay as well as bed and breakfast and the bar. This hotel is situated about 150 yards from the terminal. They come out of the terminal and across the road into this luxurious mansion.

Mr. Childers

It is not big enough.

Mr. Coughlan

I know it is not. You put it in a place where it should be twice as big as it is. But, if you played fair with the hoteliers of Ireland, it should not be left there at all.

Mr. Childers

It is being extended.

Mr. Coughlan

We all know that. Why? Because you allowed them to build where you would not allow anybody else to build. When this American millionaire came along, you gave him carte blanche.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should address the Chair.

Mr. Coughlan

The Minister is addressing the Deputy, Sir.

An Ceann Comhairle

That is no excuse for disorder.

Mr. Coughlan

We should have fair play all around. I got enough of that last week. I am sick of it. Why does the Minister not address the Chair?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy will address the Chair, please.

Mr. Coughlan

The Deputy will continue. I take grave exception to the manner in which the Minister has handled our tourist trade. If we make a case here, he will tell you he has no direct function in regard to the activities of the Department, while we have the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs telling us the very opposite about his Department.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.