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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 24 Nov 1966

Vol. 225 No. 10

Committee on Finance. - Vote 21—Office of the Minister for Justice.

I move:

That a sum not exceeding £266,010 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st March, 1967, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Justice and of certain other services administered by that Office, including certain Grants-in-Aid; and of the Public Record Office and of the Keeper of State Papers and for the purchase of historical documents, etc.

With your permission, a Cheann Comhairle, I propose, as in previous years, to treat the six Votes, for which the Minister for Justice is responsible, including the Supplementary Estimate for the Garda Síochána, as one group so that there may be one general discussion, without, of course, prejudicing the right of any Deputy to raise a particular point on any individual Vote.

The total Estimate for all the Votes for which I am responsible is £10,668,220. To this falls to be added £900,000, being the amount of the Supplementary Estimate for the Garda Síochána. The total provision for last year, including £57,080 transferred from the Votes for Increases in Pensions and Remuneration, was £10,418,120. The proposed total provision for this year is, therefore, higher by £1,150,100 than the total amount provided last year. This increase is principally due to salary increases for the Garda Síochána determined by the conciliation and arbitration machinery, and to increases in the rates of travelling and subsistence allowances, increased provision for Garda pensions, an increase in the cost of goods and services and the provision for a modest increase in staff, mainly in the Land Registry and in the Courts. The Garda Síochána salary increases account for £900,000, as set out in the Supplementary Estimate.

The Vote for the Office of the Minister for Justice caters for the staff and services of the Department's Headquarters, and shows an increase of £24,200. This increase is due principally to salary increases determined by the conciliation and arbitration machinery, a net increase of three subordinate posts and to normal incremental progression.

During the year under review, substantial progress has been made in my Department's law reform activities.

Following lengthy discussion in the House and in the Seanad, the Succession Bill, 1965, was finally enacted in December last. The Act represents, perhaps, one of the most important pieces of legal reform so far undertaken in the State. Section 2 of the Act provides that the Act shall come into operation on such day, not earlier than the 1st July, 1966, as the Minister for Justice appoints by order. On the 20th July, 1966, I made two orders the effect of which will be to bring the Succession Act and the Registration of Title Act, 1964, into operation on the 1st January, 1967.

As the new law of succession will have an important bearing on the operation of the machinery of registration of title, it is essential that the two Acts should come into operation on the same date. Before deciding on the commencement date, I had, of course, to ensure that the Land Registry would be adequately geared to cope with the additional work that will be involved. I had also to make arrangements for the establishment of new district probate registries so as to have a local service available throughout the country for those wishing to take out grants of representation in respect of the estates of deceased persons. As already announced, I have decided to establish eight new district registries which will be located in Clonmel, Donegal, Dundalk, Galway, Mullingar, Sligo, Tralee and Wexford. At present there are six district registries, in Castlebar, Cavan, Cork, Kilkenny, Limerick and Waterford. As from the 1st January next, there will thus be 14 district registries in operation.

Orders under section 24 of the Registration of Title Act, 1964, extending compulsory registration to urban areas will be made from time to time until the entire country is covered—in, I should imagine, ten to 15 years time. I propose to allow the Act to operate for a short while before making any of these orders, as this will enable the Land Registry to gain experience of, and adjust itself to, the changes made by the Act in the registration of title system.

Between them, the 1964 Act and the 1965 Act codify, simplify and modernise to a considerable extent the law of property in this country. I hope to follow them up in due course with legislation to deal with the Registry of Deeds and with the law of trusts. The Registry of Deeds will, of course, eventually disappear but there is need in the meantime to bring the procedure in the registration of deeds up to date so that we will no longer have to rely on a statute of Queen Anne. Trusts are an inherent part of our system of property law and a number of reforms require to be made.

The Committee on Court Practice and Procedure have submitted six Interim Reports to me within the past eighteen months or so. Three of these Reports deal with various aspects of the jury system, one deals with the question of increasing the jurisdiction of the Circuit and District Courts and the other two deal with proposals for the reorganisation of the courts structure on the criminal side. The three Reports dealing with juries have already been published and I have made arrangements to publish the others as soon as possible. As soon as the views of interested parties and of the public generally have been obtained on the recommendations made in these Reports, I shall introduce legislative proposals to deal with the various matters at issue.

During the year the Criminal Justice Bill, 1965, was introduced and passed its Second Stage. The object of this Bill, as Deputies will be aware, is to establish a new procedure for the preliminary examination of indictable offences. I expect it to result in the virtual abolition of the existing deposition procedure, with all the delays and expense it involves not only for the prosecution but for the accused, and its replacement by a system which will retain the safeguards which the present procedure provides for the accused that a trial will not be unnecessarily embarked upon.

I was extremely gratified by the constructive attitude shown by Deputies during the Second Reading and by the large number of useful suggestions which they made in the course of that debate. Many more suggestions have been received in the meantime from members of the judiciary and other interested bodies. As a result I have tabled a number of amendments for Committee Stage which will, I think, improve the efficiency of the new procedure.

The Landlord and Tenant (Ground Rents) Bill, 1965, was also circulated and has passed all stages in this House. The Bill will enable certain leaseholders and yearly tenants to acquire the freehold of their premises.

In January of this year, I established the Landlord and Tenant Commission whose work, I envisage, will be complementary to that of the former Ground Rents Commission. As their first and most urgent task I have asked them to report on the grant of tenancies under Part III of the Landlord and Tenant Act, 1931. This is a part of the law which has special importance for many business tenants whose leases are due for renewal and it has given rise to some difficulties in recent years in connection with certain property transactions.

When they have completed this task I have asked them to examine whether there should be an extension of the categories of lessees who are entitled under the present law to a reversionary lease and, therefore, as the Ground Rents Bill proposes, to purchase the freehold of their property. The Commission will then go on to review the operation of the whole landlord and tenant code which goes back to Deasy's Act of 1860.

In April, 1965, a summary of the Report of the Interdepartmental Committee on Malicious Injuries to the Person and Property was published. For years now there has been an agitation for a change in the law affecting the payment from the rates of compensation for malicious injuries to property. The whole subject is now under active review with the object of putting definite proposals to the Government for amending the law on malicious injuries.

Proposals for the reciprocal enforcement of judgments and maintenance orders as between ourselves and Northern Ireland and Britain, to which I referred last year, have now reached the stage when I expect that discussions at official level can be commenced shortly. The broader question of preparing legislation to enable all foreign judgments to be enforced here, on a reciprocal basis, is also being given attention.

The Adoption Board continues to handle a steady stream of applications for adoption orders. One thousand and forty-nine orders were made in 1965, 46 more than in 1964: 557 of the orders were in respect of boys and 492 in respect of girls. At the end of 1965 there were 23 adoption societies registered by the Board and 77 per cent of the children in respect of whom adoption orders were made during the year were placed by adoption societies.

In order to facilitate adopters, the Board are holding more meetings out of Dublin. In 1965, 27 out of a total of 77 meetings of the Board were held outside Dublin. Meetings were held in Cork, Limerick, Galway, Sligo, Kilkenny, Wexford, Waterford, Letter-kenny and Killarney. I cannot praise too highly this splendid social service.

During the year 1965, 3,468 registered aliens were in residence here for periods of three months or more. The corresponding figure for 1964 was 3,384 and, in fact, there has been no significant change in our registered alien population for many years. For clarification, perhaps I should mention here that British subjects are in general, exempt from the restrictions applying to aliens. It is estimated that, apart from those aliens who came here via Britain and Northern Ireland, nearly 83,000 aliens came to this country direct from the continents of Europe and America, as compared with 68,000 in 1964. Of course, the very great majority of aliens arriving here are visitors for a week or two and as their stay does not exceed three months they are not classifiable as registered aliens under the Aliens Act.

Eighty-three persons were granted certificates of naturalisation as Irish citizens in 1965. In all, just over 2,500 persons—roughly one-fifth being under 21 years of age—have been naturalised since 1935, when provision was first made in our law for the grant of certificates of naturalisation: 28 per cent of these were British, 16 per cent German, seven per cent Italian, with lesser percentages otherwise. Aliens of 46 nationalities have been granted Irish citizenship. The Film Censor examined 996 films in 1965. 874 films were passed and 78 were passed with cuts. Forty-four films were rejected. The total footage examined was just under 2,870,000, a drop of about 360,000 feet on the previous year.

The Censorship of Films Appeal Board viewed 69 films on appeal in 1965, six being appeals against cuts. Twenty-three of the films were rejected, one was passed with cuts and 36 were passed for limited viewing, 29 of them with cuts. Three films were still under consideration at the end of the year. In the six cases of appeals against cuts, the cuts were restored in full in three cases and in part in the other three.

Deputies may wonder how the Appeal Board came to view 63 rejected films when the Official Censor rejected only 44. There has been some speculation on this elsewhere. The explanation is, in fact, simple: there is no time limit on appeals and there is, invariably, a number of appeals from rejections in previous years.

The Censorship of Publications Board examined 517 books and 11 periodicals in 1965. Of these, 11 books were examined as a result of formal complaints, 505 were examined on reference from the customs authorities and one on the Board's own initiative. The Board made 296 prohibition orders in respect of books and nine in respect of periodicals. Five of the books had been the subject of prohibition orders in earlier years but, for technical reasons, it was necessary to make repeat orders in respect of them. There were ten appeals in respect of books, one of which was allowed, and two appeals in respect of periodicals, neither of which was allowed.

The usual transfers of testamentary documents from the principal and district probate registries and from the courts have been received and the documents have been arranged.

Presentations from solicitors and others have added about 400 testamentary and 33 other documents.

I mentioned last year that the Irish Manuscripts Commission had undertaken the preparation for publication of the Calendar to the Council Book of 1581-86 and the list of political prisoners forming the first section of the Kilmainham Jail register of 1789-1814. Work on these projects is now in progress and I have authorised the extension of the list of Kilmainham Jail political prisoners up to the year 1910 the date at which the Jail register ceases.

I mentioned also last year that the Irish Manuscripts Commission had undertaken the publication of the Calendar to Departmental Correspondence, 1683-1740. This work is not now being proceeded with and a report on it in the Commission's publication Analecta Hibernica is being substituted. The Commission has also undertaken the publication of the surviving copies of two 16th century surveys of portions of Munster, known as the Desmond Survey and Peyton's Survey, the originals of which perished in the destruction of the office in 1922, and the Record Commissioners' calendars of inquisitions. The inquisitions, which perished in 1922, were of 16th and 17th century date, and consisted of the reports of sworn inquiries, mainly into the tenure of land, made on the deaths of persons holding from the crown. Summaries of them had been made by the Record Commission of 1810-1830. It is expected that the entire series will form 11 volumes, which will be published by degrees. A volume for Country Dublin and one for Wexford, Wicklow, Kilkenny and Carlow have been put in hand; the former will be edited by the Deputy Keeper.

More up-to-date copying equipment, to serve the Public Record Office and the Land Registry, is being installed currently. It will provide both micro film and full size copies more expeditiously and is intended to meet a long felt want in the facilities hitherto available.

Discussions have been held by the Deputy Keeper with the Deputy Keeper of the Records for Northern Ireland, and arrangements have been worked out for the exchange of particulars or copies of material coming into the hands of either institution which are of historical interest to the other.

I now pass on to the Garda Síochána Vote, No. 22. This Vote shows an increase of £153,300 on the provision in the previous year's Estimate. To this must be added £900,000, which is the amount of the Supplementary Estimate to provide for Garda pay increases which were determined recently in accordance with the provisions of the Garda Conciliation and Arbitration Scheme.

Pensions and gratuities—Subhead G —are mainly responsible for the increase of £153,300. This subhead alone accounts for over £134,000 of the increase. The rising cost of pensions has been a feature of the Estimates for a number of years and it is due, of course, to the abnormally high number of retirements from the Force on grounds of age which has been going on for some time and is likely to continue for a couple more years. The increase in pensions granted from August of last year has also added to the cost.

There is an increase of about £11,000 in Subhead B—travelling and incidental expenses. This has resulted from increases granted in subsistence and other allowances following agreed recommendations by the Garda Síochána Conciliation Council under the Conciliation and Arbitration Scheme.

The cost of Post Office services shows a considerable increase—nearly £52,000 on last year's provision. This has resulted from higher charges for telephone rentals and calls and for postal services. The cost of these was under-estimated last year.

The clothing subhead—Subhead D —shows an increase of over £21,000. This has resulted mainly from increases in prices. Part of it is also due to an increased provision for clothing and equipment for motor-cyclists, which is needed because there has been an increase in the number of motor-cycles. This is also reflected in the transport subhead—Subhead F—which shows an increase of £30,000. Also, the number of cars that will fall to be replaced during the year is greater than the number for which provision was made last year.

Without taking the Supplementary Estimate into account, there would be a decrease of £15,000 in the provision for pay. This is due to the fact that it was necessary, last year, to provide for payment of 53 weeks pay to weekly-paid men, that is, about one-third of the Force, as against the normal 52-week year. The reduction that would have resulted from this has been offset to some extent by an increase of 16 in Garda strength, which now stands at 6,460. The pay increases, which have been provided for in the Supplementary Estimate, have, however, resulted in an increase of £885,000 over the pay provision last year.

The provision for Appropriations in Aid shows an increase of over £71,000. This is due entirely to increased receipts that are expected from the Road Fund in respect of Garda Síochána expenses in connection with the enforcement of the Road Traffic Acts.

Work on the provision of new stations and Garda houses, and on the improvement of existing premises continued during the year. Six new stations and seven married quarters have been provided by the Office of Public Works and 134 houses were provided by the National Building Agency. At present, work is in progress on 12 new stations and 68 houses and married quarters.

The opening in July of last year of the indoor swimming pool at the Training Centre in Templemore marked the completion of the scheme to provide the recruits at this centre with up-to-date life saving facilities. Unfortunately, progress in teaching swimming and life saving skills to recruits was delayed by the discovery of a serious leak in the swimming pool. This was a matter of great disappointment and dissatisfaction but it was outside of official control. The repair work has been completed and the pool has now been in regular use for some months.

Apart from the leak in the swimming pool, a number of minor defects, principally in plaster work, were discovered in the Templemore premises during the year. These have been put right without cost to the State and it is unnecessary to comment further on them.

I am giving constant attention to providing the Garda Síochána with the most up-to-date equipment possible to enable them to carry out efficiently their various duties. As Deputies will be aware, a mobile detection unit was acquired some time ago, and this will make a valuable contribution to the efficiency of the Force. This is a van that is equipped with radio, telephone, searchlights, loudspeakers and miscellaneous technical equipment. It makes possible on-the-spot taking and checking of fingerprints and photography, mapping and the investigation of criminal clues of various kinds. In criminal investigations, speed is paramount, and the new unit will cut out a good deal of travel by Gardaí between the scene of a serious crime and the Garda station. The unit is in every sense a mobile Garda station—and a very well equipped one at that. In addition to the technical equipment I have mentioned, it also has sleeping and cooking facilities. The unit has already been brought into use in connection with a murder case and it has proved a great help to the Gardaí engaged on the investigations.

I have already mentioned, in connection with increases in the provisions under a couple of subheads, additional motor-cycles. Sixty additional cycles have been provided and these are now in regular use, mainly for the control of traffic. They have been allocated to stations around Dublin and also to stations throughout the country that are situated on main traffic routes. They have improved Garda mobility considerably and make for more effective control of traffic. They are also, of course, of considerable assistance to the Garda in carrying out other duties.

The extent to which Garda mobility has been increased can be seen clearly by comparing the present position with that of ten years ago. In 1956 there were 169 cars and only 19 motor-cycles in the Garda fleet. Now there are 261 cars and 219 motor-cycles. As a further aid, 25 motor-cycles in and around Dublin are fitted with radios and it is proposed to extend, in time, the use of radios on motor-cycles to all centres where there is a Garda radio service.

Garda radio services have been provided in Portlaoise, Mullingar, Ballinasloe, Athlone, Thurles and Fermoy during the past year and it is proposed to continue the extension of this service in coming years. The service now provides partial coverage in 14 Garda Divisions. Ten years ago it covered only Dublin city. I referred last year to tests that were being carried out on the use of light two-way radio sets on the beat in Dublin. Preliminary investigations indicated that the use of these sets would be of great help to the man on the beat. Accordingly, 12 of them were purchased and put into use in various districts in Dublin. We are now satisfied that this type of equipment can make a signal contribution to the efficient and economical use of manpower and arrangements are being made in conjunction with the Engineering Branch of the Post Office for a considerable amplification of the two-way radio control system. The communications centre in Dublin Castle is fully loaded for two-way radio traffic at present and a general use of walkie-talkies by men on night duty necessitates the installation of fairly costly apparatus at selected city stations.

There was a fall of just under 1,000 in the number in indictable crimes in the year ended 30th September, 1965, as compared with the previous year. The number of such crimes occurring in the Dublin Metropolitan Police area fell by more than 1,000, being offset by a very slight rise in the number in the rest of the country. The total number of indictable crimes in the year ended 30th September, 1965, was 16,736 as against 17,700 in 1964 and 16,203 in 1963. Larcenies showed the biggest decrease—from 11,972 in 1964 to 11,014 in 1965, and housebreaking and similar offences fell from 4,282 in 1964 to 4,213 in 1965. While more than 9,000 of these indictable offences were committed in the Dublin Metropolitan Police Area, which embraces Dublin City, most of County Dublin and small portions of some of the adjoining counties, this figure, as I have said, is 1,000-odd below the figure for 1964. I am particularly pleased that there has been a significant increase in the detection rate. The rate for 1964 was 64 per cent while for 1965 it was 70 per cent for the whole country, which is extremely good. I regret, however, that the number of crimes against the person committed last year shows a slight increase over the 1964 figure. The increase is from 1,045 to 1,113 and the 1965 figure for this particular type of offence is the highest on record.

Although the review relates to the year 1965-1966 I think that, having mentioned a fall in the indictable crime figures for that period, I should mention also that in the year just passed there has been an upward trend. I want to assure the House that in matters of this kind my Department and the Garda authorities have no complacency and every effort is being made to deal with the situation.

While I am speaking of crime, perhaps I may reassure the House that the Bill to deal with the control of flick-knives, daggers and other offensive weapons is being prepared with all possible speed. This is not the time for me to go into the merits of the case for the Bill, but I would like to say a brief word to explain why the Bill is not yet ready. The reason is that I am proposing to include in the Bill many other matters besides the control of offensive weapons. For instance, the Bill will simplify the criminal law by abolishing the distinctions between felonies and misdemeanours. It will also formally abolish penal servitude, hard labour and other concepts that have ceased to have any practical meaning. These provisions call for an extensive list of changes in various enactments going back many years.

It is probably a truism to say that, for most potential offenders, the greatest deterrent is the fear of being caught and, side by side with the reform of the criminal law by the abolition of felony, with its associated forfeitures and disqualifications, the Bill will have various provisions designed to strengthen the powers of the Garda Síochána in the prevention and detection of crime. At the present time the Garda can in certain cases get a warrant from a District Justice to search premises, but there are many cases, even where a very serious crime has been committed, where the law does not provide for the issue of a warrant. Again, fingerprints may be taken in certain cases at present, but not in other cases. The Bill will deal with all these matters, without, of course, losing sight of the need to protect the legitimate rights of the individual. Much work has already been done on the Bill and I am pressing forward with its preparation, with a view to its introduction at the earliest possible moment.

The total number of persons prosecuted for summary offences rose from 120,715 in the year ended 30th September, 1964, to 139,856 in 1965, the biggest increase being in road traffic offences, for which over 113,000 persons were prosecuted as compared with less than 95,000 in the previous year and under 75,000 in 1963. In addition, over 51,000 fines-on-the-spot notices were issued for contraventions of parking bye-laws and similar offences and in only about 8,000 of these cases was it necessary to prosecute. These figures taken together indicate the growing importance of road traffic in our lives and the increasing amount of time and attention the Garda are devoting to it. In this connection I might mention that an inter-departmental committee consisting of officers of my Department, the Department of Local Government and the Garda has been set up to keep under constant review the many problems relating to the enforcement of the road traffic law. Incidentally, the fines-on-the-spot system was extended to Cork, Limerick and Galway on 1st May, 1965, and the Garda say that it is proving very effective in those cities.

Before I leave the subject of crime, I feel that I must refer to the undue sensationalism and exaggeration in some newspaper reports of crime. Quite often, there is an anti-police bias in those reports and one can sympathise with the Garda when they feel resentment. But my main concern is not with the fact that the police may feel badly about such matters but, rather, with the effect on public confidence and on the attitude of the man-in-the-street to the police which a consistent diet of distorted reports about crime and the police inevitably produces. The effect of these reports is to suggest that crime is rife and the police are unable to protect the citizens. If detections were given equal prominence with the reports of crimes committed, things would not be so bad; but frequently, where the crime has made front-page, headline news, one has to search very closely for the subsequent report that the perpetrator of the crime has been caught. And it is not unknown for newspapers in reporting a crime to forget to mention that the criminal has been caught, even though that fact is known to them at the time. I have no wish to stop newspapers from reporting crimes; on the contrary, I know that they can do much to help the police by their reports, but I would appeal to them to avoid sensationalism and to report the facts.

I think that it would be right for me to mention here, too, that on occasions during the year I have received a number of complaints, some of which have also been aired publicly, which criticised the manner in which individual gardaí behaved towards members of the public in the course of their investigations. I do not accept all that was said but I have felt it necessary to draw the attention of the Commissioner to the fact that occasionally members of the Force behave with a disregard of feeling which is entirely contrary to their traditions and general behaviour. I am glad to say that the number of complaints which have been substantiated are few and far between.

The Extradition Act, 1965, came into operation on 16th August, 1965. Part III of the Act deals with the extradition to England and Wales, Scotland, the Isle of Man, the Channel Islands and Northern Ireland of persons accused or convicted under the laws of those places of indictable offences or summary offences punishable by imprisonment for a maximum period of at least six months. Up to the middle of September of this year, 107 warrants had been received for execution here, of which 18 were warrants issued in Northern Ireland. Sixty-seven of those warrants were executed, including ten from Northern Ireland.

The British Backing of Warrants (Republic of Ireland) Act, 1965 came into operation on 15th November, 1965. The Act provides for the execution in Great Britain and Northern Ireland, the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man of warrants issued here for persons accused or convicted under our law of indictable offences or summary offences punishable by imprisonment for a maximum period of at least six months. Up to the middle of September, 121 warrants had been sent for execution, including 16 sent to Northern Ireland. Eighty-six of those warrants were executed, 12 of them in Northern Ireland.

I now come to the Vote for Prisons which is for a sum of £418,450. Additional expenditure on some of the provisions in the Vote gives a gross increase of £22,000 over the Vote for 1965-66 but savings on other items reduce the net increase to £15,500. The main increase is in Subhead A where provision has had to be made for 53 weeks pay for weekly paid staff as against the 52 weeks in 1965-66.

The Estimate has been framed on the basis of an expected daily average of 570 persons in custody during the year in the prisons and in St. Patrick's Institution for youthful offenders. The daily average for the year 1965 was less than this—561 in fact—but the figure has been climbing gradually over recent years and a lower estimate than 570 cannot safely be anticipated. Indeed, while the daily average population for 1965, at 561, was 12 less than in 1964, the actual overall intake of persons, either under sentence or in custody on remand or while awaiting trial, was much higher, the figures being 3,649 for 1965 as against 3,385 for 1964. The intake figure also shows a higher conviction rate, the number of persons received under sentence of imprisonment or detention in 1965 being 2,477 as against 2,348 in 1964 an increase of 129. This upward movement was related solely to the adult prisoner population and most of the cases, about 80 per cent, concerned persons sentenced for debt, contempt of court or failure to pay fines.

There was a drop, compared to the previous year, in the number of sentences in the 16 to 21 age group. The prison figure of receptions under sentence in 1964 totalled 1,791 and included 183 persons under 21 years of age: persons getting prison sentences in 1965 totalled 1,925 and of these the number of young offenders was 170. In St. Patrick's Institution where the daily average in 1965 was 164 or two less than 1964, the number of young offenders committed directly to the Institution in 1965 was 552—five less than the previous year. Even though the fall in numbers of juvenile committals is not a significant one, I am taking it as a hopeful sign that the several steps taken in recent years to deal with juvenile delinquency—the establishment of the junior police liaison scheme, the expanded probation system, etc., are beginning to have effect.

In the field of penal reform, the chief developments of the past year have been (1) the success of the hostel established in Mountjoy Prison for prisoners under corrective training who are being prepared for their final release, (2) the establishment of an after-care committee to strengthen and continue the work of prison rehabilitation and, (3) on the probation side, the initiation of a scheme for providing a network of voluntary probation workers throughout the country.

I mentioned last year the opening of Mountjoy Prison hostel and I am glad to be able to report that the innovation has been fully justified by the progress made to date. Since it was opened in July, 1964, nearly 100 prisoners have passed through the hostel and only five of these have been recommitted to prison. It would be too much, I suppose, to expect a continued "success" rate of the order of 95 per cent but we have every reason to think that a very high proportion of these trainees will not come before the criminal courts again. The enthusiasm and dedication to this rehabilitation work by the prisons staff does credit to all concerned. May I, once again, invite Deputies to come and see for themselves the radical changes in prison administration that have been taking place in recent years.

Full membership of the hostel is the final stage in the programme of prison corrective training where a prisoner has graduated through all preceding stages, has been placed in ordinary outside employment and is released from prison each day to go to work. The earnings of hostel prisoners now amount to some thousands of pounds a year from which they may contribute to the upkeep of their families while they are yet undergoing imprisonment and put by savings against the time of final release. At the moment there are five prisoners living in prison and working outside during the day. In St. Patrick's Institution daily working release was granted during 1965 to 30 inmates to take up employment secured for them by the Institution's Welfare Officer. In 1966 to date a further 26 inmates have been similarly released to day-time employment. At present there are four youths on daily working release.

Apart from its use for the purpose of allowing persons in custody to go out to employment daily, the powers in the Criminal Justice Act, 1960 to grant temporary release were exercised during 1965 in 57 other cases, 22 of which related to home leave for Christmas. In the remaining cases there were a variety of reasons—family illnesses and deaths, domestic and business problems, employment interviews, etc. In only one of all the cases where temporary release was granted did the person concerned fail to abide by his undertaking to return to prison.

In almost every case where employment has been obtained for the prisoners it has been procured by the prison welfare service and the welfare service is also charged with the duty of advising and guiding prisoners after their final release. But towards the end of last year I decided to set up an after-care committee, comprised of a number of businessmen who might be in a position to open the doors to employment for deserving prisoners. I am hopeful that the application of business expertise to the problems of prison industries and training should have very useful results. The enthusiasm which the members of the committee have been showing is gratifying.

I cannot emphasise too strongly that a prison rehabilitation programme operates under severe limitations, among which I may mention individual character and aptitudes, the length of a prison sentence and so on. As to individual character—nobody can help a man who is not willing to be helped. Even in the case of those who desire to make a new life the prison authorities must work within the period of imprisonment and, strangely enough, a prisoner who is in for only a short term for a minor offence is least likely to benefit: instruction and training must be carried on over a fairly long period. Nevertheless, our prison staffs have done highly commendable work. A total of 737 prisoners have now been discharged from the corrective training unit since the unit was established in October, 1962. Of this number 112 have been recommitted to prison. This means that, to date, roughly 80 per cent of corrective trainees have been doing well. It is, perhaps, too soon to make conclusive claims but all the indications are that the scheme is proving a very good success. We are keeping abreast of penal reform methods elsewhere and last year two senior officers of my Department attended the United Nations Congress on the Prevention of Crime and the Treatment of Offenders which was held in Stockholm.

Another area in which the work of penal reform has been making progress is in the preventive service given by the Garda juvenile liaison officers who were appointed in Dublin city in August, 1963. The success of the scheme in Dublin encouraged me to extend the scheme to the cities of Cork, Limerick and Waterford. A total of over 1,732 juveniles had been dealt with under the scheme up to last April and of these about nine per cent only have since become involved in further offences. I think we can regard this result as very satisfactory. I should also like to remind the House of the work of the Garda in promoting and supporting the boys' club movement; individual Gardaí are taking an active part in the management and running of well over half the boys' clubs in the country of which there are now over 350. In Dublin alone there are over 10,000 boys and girls enrolled in parish clubs.

A new development of the probation system also deserves mention. When the Probation Service was examined by the inter-departmental committee set up in 1962 to examine methods of crime prevention and the treatment of offenders, it recommended that full-time probation officers should continue to be employed in Dublin only, since the amount of probation work arising would not justify full-time appointments elsewhere. Nevertheless, the need was seen to strengthen the probation services available outside of Dublin and the Probation Administration Officer, who now heads the service, has been engaged in recruiting the services of voluntary societies and persons interested in probation work with a view to providing a voluntary probation service on an organised basis throughout the country. The response has been most encouraging. In 77 centres, outside Dublin, the courts now have available to them the services of voluntary probation workers. In the next year or so it is hoped to have a network covering the whole country. It is hoped, furthermore, to provide an effective after-care service on a personal basis for children and young persons discharged from industrial and reformatory schools.

Deputies will, no doubt, have adverted to the extent to which the voluntary effort of private individuals and societies is a feature of these recent developments. So far from making excuses for my Department's efforts to enlist voluntary participation in the penal and preventive services, I wish to emphasise it. It is not a question of saving money, neither is it a question of passing on to the public at large duties that should be performed by professional personnel. In matters of this kind community participation is vital. The experience of countries such as Sweden which have a fairly highly developed probation service on voluntary lines impresses me on the desirability—even the necessity—for community participation in social schemes of this kind.

The after-care of prisoners and persons who have been for long spells in institutions is not something that can be given otherwise than through a personal relationship, a continuing contact with guidance and moral support, and it must be available when it is needed, where it is needed, by a person who often fights shy of the world of officialdom and institutions. I am glad to say that the help sought here has been forthcoming. In acknowledging the assistance of the many voluntary bodies and private individuals who support our efforts here—the Visiting Committees of Mountjoy, Portlaoise and Limerick Prisons and St. Patrick's Institution, the several branches of the Society of St. Vincent de Paul, of the Legion of Mary, the St. Patrick's Welfare Association, the Discharged Protestant Prisoners' Aid Society, the Salvation Army, the Mountjoy Prison After-Care Committee and, finally, though by no means least, those employers who accept the recommendation of the prison authorities and enable a prisoner to make a fresh start in decent employment—I should like to assure them that their participation is a vital and necessary part of all the Government's efforts towards crime prevention.

The next Vote, No. 26, is that for the Courts. At £583,000 it shows an increase of £80,270 over last year. The additional provision is required in the main to meet some increase in the number of posts, mainly in District Court Offices.

The District Court, Circuit Court and Superior Court Rules Committees have been actively engaged during the past year.

The District Court Rules Committee continued their work in connection with the general provision of the existing District Court Rules. The Committee submitted for my concurrence two sets of Rules, made during the year, relating to District Court Costs and Extradition Act, 1965.

The Circuit Court Rules Committee made the Circuit Court Rules (No. 1) of 1965 relating to a miscellaneous group of items. These Rules have received my concurrence.

The principal matter which engaged the attention of the Superior Courts Rules Committee during 1965 was the preparation of Superior Courts Rules relating to the winding up of companies to replace the earlier Rules based on the Companies Acts, 1908-1959; this was necessitated by the enactment of the Companies Act, 1963. The new Rules relating to the winding up of companies—the Rules of the Superior Courts (No. 1) 1966—were made on 1st February, 1966. A number of other miscellaneous matters were considered by the Committee during the course of the year. I should like to pay a special tribute to the judges of the several courts who are voluntarily assisting the work of the Department of Justice in which I might describe as personal, non-judicial capacities. I refer to the justices and judges who are serving in the Adoption Board, the Bankruptcy Committee, the Censorship of Films Appeal Board, the Censorship of Publications Board and Appeal Board, the Committee inquiring into Court Practices and Procedures, the Committee inquiring into the law relating to landlord and tenant and ground rents and a Committee recently formed which is making inquiries relating to reform of substantive law. The extent to which I am indebted to the judiciary in these respects is very great.

Estimate No. 27 is that for the Land Registry and Registry of Deeds. This year's figure of £257,930 represents an increase of £32,660 over last year. The additional provision is necessary to meet increases in remuneration and the cost of additional staff that will be necessary to discharge the new duties arising for the Land Registry on the coming into operation of the Registration of Title Act, 1964.

The progressive increase in the business being transacted in the Land Registry during recent years, continues. The number of dealings received for registration rose from 31,910 in 1962, to 33,062 in 1963, to 35,321 in 1964 and to 37,052 in 1965; applications for discharge of equities rose from 1,916 to 2,132 to 2,282 and to 2,351 for the same years. However, applications for Land Certificates which had increased by approximately 1,000 over the period 1962 to 1964 dropped by 800 in 1965 as compared with 1964.

In the case of the Registry of Deeds, the number of registrations rose from 24,689 in 1962, to 27,563 in 1963, to 29,508 in 1964 and dropped to 27,879 in 1965. Applications for searches increased from 6,249 to 6,709 over the period 1962 to 1964 and dropped to 5,233 in 1965.

With regard to the provision of additional accommodation to meet the needs of the Land Registry in the years immediately ahead, I am glad to be able to say that work commenced last May on a two-storey extension over the Public Record Office which will be linked to the Land Registry building. The contract calls for completion by 5th January, 1968.

I have already mentioned that I have appointed 1st January, 1967, as the commencement date of the Registration of Title Act, 1964. As I have said, I have to ensure that the Land Registry is adequately geared to cope with the additional work that will be involved. However, the difficulties which I reported as being encountered last year in recruiting the necessary qualified Legal and Technical Staffs have continued and my Department has been giving close attention to the solution of these difficulties. The failure of the last open competition for posts as Legal Assistants to attract a sufficient number of candidates compelled me to recruit legal assistants on a temporary basis. These have now taken up duty.

As to the additional clerical and technical staffs required, some of the additional clerical staff have already taken up duty and arrangements for the recruitment of the additional technical staff are now well advanced. I am confident that all the additional staff required will be recruited in time.

The installation recently of a new Copyflo machine for copying documents represents a major step in modernising methods in the Land Registry. This new equipment prints documents at the rate of 20 feet per minute; the width of the paper is 13 inches. In addition to catering for all the needs of the Land Registry, the new equipment will meet all demands of the Public Record Office, and of the Central Scrivenery Office, in the matter of the prompt and efficient copying of documents.

The final Vote makes provision for the Office of Charitable Donations and Bequests. The Estimate for 1966-67 is £12,830, that is £1,250 higher than the total provided for this service in 1965-66. The increase arises from the grant of normal increments and also from some salary increases fixed under the conciliation and arbitration scheme.

The useful and valuable work of the Commissioners continued during the year. Cash amounting to £94,695 and stocks to the value of £4,744 were transferred to the Commissioners during the year 1965, and on 31st December last the nominal value of investments standing in their name was £1,969,887.

It remains for me to express my sincere thanks to the members of the various voluntary boards and commissions which are associated with my Department for their valuable services during the year. Since my appointment as Minister for Justice, I have been deeply impressed by the extent of this unpaid public service and by the way in which the persons concerned have carried out their duties.

The Minister has given a pretty full review of the work of his Department on the various matters for which he as Minister is responsible. To some extent there is an air of unreality in discussing at this period of the year, coming up to Christmas, an Estimate prepared for the last Budget when the money, or most of it, is already spent. However, that is not a matter for which the Minister is responsible. It is something which arose by agreement in the House to facilitate the work of the House. I merely want to mention it because I hold the personal view that we were better served in the sense of public debate here when there was more reality attached to it, while we had an opportunity of discussing Estimates at a time when views expressed in the course of the debates on them here could influence the views of the Minister and the administration of his Department. That is no longer the case and to some extent what we say here, while it may, we hope, make an impression on the Minister, can only impress him so far as next year's Estimate and next year's work are concerned.

One of the matters with which the Minister dealt at some length in his remarks was the question of increased mobility of the Garda Síochána. I do not want to go on record as opposing or as criticising that. I do feel that in modern days, with increased speed of communication, it is important that the Garda should be as up to date as possible and that if the speed of communications, the speed of transport, has increased for those who infringe the law, the Garda should be made as efficient, as speedy and as mobile as possible to counter that.

The reason I am saying that and emphasising the fact that I am not being critical of the increased mobility of the Garda is that I want to express again a view I have expressed several times on this Estimate, that is, that we are making a big mistake in getting away, as we are gradually, from the old-time idea of the garda on the beat, particularly in rural areas. In his speech this year, the Minister has not dealt with the question of the gradual closing down of small rural stations. We discussed that in previous years on this Estimate. I do not know to what extent further small rural Garda stations have been closed in the year now under review but I again want to urge on the Minister the importance, particularly in rural areas, of the old-time garda who will be available always at the Garda station, who will not only familiarise himself with the neighbourhood to which he is attached but will also become the friend and confidant to a great extent of the people of the area.

I know that one of the reasons advanced for closing down rural Garda stations is the absence of crime in the area or the fact that there has not been very much crime over a number of years. I firmly believe that the reason for that is the existence of the Garda station. In other words, I think that a policy which attempts to justify the closing down of small rural Garda stations because of the absence of crime may very well be putting the cart before the horse and viewing the matter in wrong perspective. I hope there will not be any increase in crime in those areas where the Garda station has been closed down but I do think that a very large contributory factor to the absence of crime which is so often advanced as an excuse for the closing down of Garda stations has been the existence of the Garda station.

When we have, as we have in increasing numbers nowadays and as the Minister has indicated in his statement, what I regard as the garda on the beat being gradually replaced by squad cars and motorcycles, so far as rural areas are concerned, the garda is not getting the same opportunity of knowing his area or of knowing the people in the area. That is one of the disadvantages which attach to this increased mobility. While increased speed, efficiency, mobility and all that kind of thing are all to the good, more particularly in the large urban areas than in rural areas, nevertheless, the other aspect should not be overlooked, namely, the fact that the garda who is depending on his own two feet or on a pedal bicycle has a greater opportunity of doing the kind of work which the old-time gardaí in this country, and I think in other countries, have done so effectively down through the years.

The Minister dealt also with the question of road traffic and road traffic offences. May I, again, in this connection, express a point of view which I expressed previously? It is not a matter in which the Minister himself will have the final say but it does seem rather anomalous, that the question of road traffic legislation should fall to be dealt with by the Department of Local Government rather than by the Department of Justice. It is the responsibility of the Minister and of the Garda to carry into operation the legislation in relation to road traffic that is passed by this House. It is the job of the Garda to enforce that legislation. The gardaí on duty are the people who are in the best position to know what is required by way of road traffic legislation. They are concerned with enforcing the law. In the large urban areas and in the large cities, they are the people who are actively involved with the question of the flow of traffic and so arranging it as far as they can that traffic will flow smoothly. They, again, are the people who are involved where it comes to the question of bringing prosecutions, getting evidence, fines on the spot, and all the rest. I should imagine that it would be far better all round that the Minister for Justice and his Department should be entitled to deal with questions of road traffic legislation in consultation, as may be necessary, with the Department of Local Government rather than the other way around as it is at the moment.

The figures which the Minister gave in relation to road traffic offences are rather startlingly high. I suppose that is accounted for by an increase in the number of cars. I do not know to what extent one is entitled to deal with these questions on this Estimate, having regard to the responsibility of the Department of Local Government. Possibly this is the reason why the Minister did not deal more fully with some aspects of the road traffic problem as it affects this city.

I should like to have heard the Minister's views as to how the various regulations as regards one-way streets have worked out in the view of the Garda authorities. In recent years, there have been some fairly drastic changes as regards traffic routes in the city of Dublin. I am wondering if the Garda authorities are satisfied with the results and if the Minister is in a position to express their view on those questions.

I have a fairly open mind on this question. I do quite an amount of driving both in the city and elsewhere. It seems to me that, by and large, the new routing of traffic by means of one-way streets in the city has worked reasonably well. There are some complaints that I have with regard to particular routes. I imagine other individuals have their own pet complaints. But, by and large, in the general way, I think it is working reasonably well and I should like to know if the Garda authorities are satisfied with it.

The Minister mentioned that as between 1964 and 1965, the total number of persons prosecuted for summary offences rose from 120,715 in the year ended 30th September, 1964 to 139,856 in 1965 and went on to state that the biggest increase was in road traffic offences, for which over 113,000 persons were prosecuted as compared with less than 95,000 in the previous year and under 75,000 in 1963.

That seems to me to be a very dramatic increase. I should like the Minister when replying to break down the figures for the House and let us know under what heads the various prosecutions were brought. I should like to know, for example, if the big end of the increase was in relation to such offences as over-staying the permitted parking time—whether it relates to dangerous driving, careless driving and other serious motoring offences of that sort or merely to parking offences and traffic offences of a comparatively minor nature.

The reason I raise the point is that the Minister went on to point out that, in addition to this big increase from 75,000 in 1963 to 113,000 last year, more than 51,000 fines on the spot notices were issued. As far as the fines on the spot system is concerned, it seems to me that this is working out as a very good deal for the Revenue. As the Minister pointed out, of 51,000 fines on the spot notices issued only 8,000 of these people decided to contest the matter and have it brought into court. Therefore, 43,000 people who got fines on the spot notices were prepared to pay up straight away.

We all know that the amount of the fine on the spot has been increased. It seems to me that this is a rather good thing for the Revenue. I have never been convinced, and I am still not convinced, that it is a good thing as far as the ordinary people are concerned. Maybe I have been lucky: I have not got one of these notices yet. I imagine that, if I were to get a notice, my reaction would be that I would pay, whether I thought I was in the right or not. Even though I felt I was in the right, I would be inclined to pay rather than have the trouble and waste of time, from my point of view, of having the matter thrashed out in court. I may be wrong, but I imagine that is the attitude of mind which most people who receive fines on the spot notices would have. If I am right in that, the consequence would be that many thousands of pounds annually is being paid by people who feel that in fact they were not in the wrong and that they should not have any penalties imposed on them. However, the principal point I want to make in this connection is to ask the Minister to give a breakdown of these figures when he is replying.

The Minister had a few hard words to say about newspapers in their reporting of criminal matters. I can appreciate it is undesirable that there should be anything by way of scare-mongering or sensationalism in the reporting of a crime, but I must say I would not have thought that the newspapers in this country could be faulted seriously in this connection. I realise that this is a matter which is possibly a delicate one from the Minister's point of view and the point of view of the authorities. They obviously do not want to put themselves in the position of seeking any further to suppress the right of free speech and expression of views and opinions in this country— I have a few words to say about that later—but, at the same time, they must be concerned with the problem that will be created if sensationalism is indulged in. I think it is true to say, with the kind of mass media of communication nowadays, over-reporting, if that is the correct phrase, of matters relating to crime and criminals can hardly have a good effect. I take it that is what the Minister is concerned about?

Generally speaking, I, for one, would have confidence in the standards of Irish reporters and Irish newspapers. I would not have thought that they were blameworthy in this connection.

Another matter the Minister dealt with was the extension of the probation system on a voluntary basis. I would like him to give a little more information about this. He mentioned that this was not a question of saving money. I am not suggesting he is wrong in that, or that the idea of going in for a fairly large extension of the probation service on a voluntary basis is in any way connected with the saving of money. However, it seems to me that very often the work of the probation officer is work for a professional. It is professional in this sense. It is a difficult and very responsible occupation. It is one which, to my mind, unless one is, so to speak, born to the job, may require very specialised training. I should imagine it requires even a certain amount of apprenticeship. I think that those who are good enough to engage in this work on a voluntary basis must work to some kind of pattern, and that something in the nature of crash courses should be given to enable them to appreciate the complications and problems which may be involved.

The Minister mentioned this extension and also the fact that it was on a voluntary basis. He did not give any information with regard to what kind of courses, if any, are made available for those prepared to undertake the work. It may be that there are courses in operation all the time and that, before a person is entrusted with what is tantamount to the work of a probation officer, he or she will be required to do some course. I should like some information about those if they are available.

This work is very important. Those prepared to undertake it on a voluntary basis are doing a tremendous service for their country and for their less fortunate fellows. I do not want for a moment to be misunderstood and taken as opposing this idea of this work being done on a voluntary basis. I am not at all opposed to it. As I say, this work is very important. It is particularly important in dealing with the youthful offender. I am not trying to make any political capital out of this but the Party to which I have the honour to belong have gone very carefully and very fully into the question of a scheme dealing with youthful offenders, and, generally, the position of youth and the helping of youth in this country. I think I said some words about it on this Estimate last year.

The extension of the probation system, particularly related to youthful offenders, could be a matter of very great importance. All of us know that the transition from childhood to adolescence has never been easy but that in conditions today it is probably more difficult than ever. There is the more or less constant movement from the country into the city and large urban areas. We are all concerned. We hear plenty about the flight from the land. It is a fact. The flight from the land is there: it is there all the time, this constant move from the rural areas into the cities and urban areas. There is increased industrialisation and the breakdown of the old patterns of rural family life. With the advent of the five-day week and, indeed, in some cases possibly even shorter working hours, there is increased leisure and increased spending. You have also the difficulty, to which I referred briefly before, of the mass media of communication which bring with them the mass media of entertainment and the influence they have and, generally very often, for some people, you have the lure of emigration. All of these are problems which every country has to face and which we must face here.

The problem generally of helping youth can be very complex. I think it is true to say that one of the most important things—probably the State or voluntary organisations are not in a position to supply it fully—is the necessity for family affection and security. I do not want, in this debate, to go into questions of housing policy but it does seem that a prerequisite for the type of security and family affection that is needed generally in dealing with the question of youth and the transition from childhood to youth is that there should be decent housing conditions and that, in that way, housing policy in this country can be vitally important in connection with having a sensible programme for youth in the country.

Schooling, of course, is important. It has an important influence on development. I should like to commend, as I did before, the work of the various youth groups in the country and the work of Macra na Tuaithe. There is the very commendable development that the Garda authorities are taking such an interest in the youth clubs. I think the Minister mentioned that in approximately half of the boys' youth clubs the Garda authorities are concerned with the management and with their very running. That is excellent and the more of that there can be, the better.

I do not know whether it would be possible, under the supervision or with the assistance and co-operation of the Garda, to extend the policy which we advocated and which I advocated here last year, that is, that we should try to achieve a position whereby there will be a number of trained professional youth leaders who will be able to give leadership and guidance in relation to these groups, in relation to the recreation and sporting activities, and so on, that will be undertaken.

Green Guards.

Oh, no: all that would imply would be suitable premises and suitable recreational facilities. If it is necessary to spend money on that kind of thing and to provide youth leaders and trained teachers and play leaders of that sort, I do not think that people would object in any way to expenditure of that sort.

There is the question of vocational guidance, and so on. All of these are questions with which we should concern ourselves. It is for that reason that we advocated strongly that a national programme for youth should be initiated here. I spoke at some length about it last year and I do not intend to say any more about it now.

In the course of the year, the Minister spoke of a change which apparently is being examined by him and his Department in relation to punishment for offences. I have not particulars of his speech before me at the moment. My recollection is that the indicated that he was thinking in terms of compensation being awarded instead of imprisonment. Offhand, I may say that I am attracted to the idea. I think it is one that is well worth examining but it is one which the Minister would need to be careful about. One of the things that may be said in criticism of it is the danger of having one law for the rich and another law for the poor. If any such system were being introduced, the Minister would want to ensure not so much that a fine or a compensatory fine would become the alternative to imprisonment but that discretion would be allowed to the court in proper cases, where an offence has involved damage or injury to an individual, to order the accused person, if found guilty, to pay compensation.

My recommendation to the Minister is that it should not always be regarded as an alternative to a prison sentence; the courts should be given the additional option of awarding compensation. In other words, it should be open to the courts to award compensation, plus imprisonment. In proper cases, the courts would probably feel that the payment of compensation should replace imprisonment. The danger, as I say, if we travel too fast along that line, is that people might get it into their heads that, provided they are able to pay, they will not go to gaol. It would be all wrong to give any impression of that sort.

The Minister spoke of the work of the Garda juvenile liaison officers. When talking about a programme for youth, I should have mentioned the work of the liaison officers, as the Minister has. That has been very successful and it is certainly a move in the right direction in dealing with juvenile offenders.

I am not sure that I appreciate fully the kind of work being done by these juvenile liaison officers. As I understand it, they interest themselves —I do not know whether these would be minor offences by young persons— in bringing the offender into a sensible frame of mind with regard to civic duties and responsibilities. I think I am correct in saying that discretion is allowed, that in any case where there is a visit by the liaison officer and a reprimand is likely to prove effective, the matter is left at that and a prosecution might not take place.

I am not fully conversant with this and I should like the Minister to explain it in more detail. In any event, whatever the work done, on the figures the Minister has given, it certainly seems that the scheme is effective. Of the number of people dealt with, I think, from recollection, only nine per cent were subsequently in trouble.

That is right.

That is worth recording and is worthy of emphasis.

Another matter I should like to deal with is one of considerable public importance. To my mind, it involves the denial of fundamental constitutional rights to some people and the apparent abdication by the Government and the Minister of their executive functions in this regard. It involves the failure of the Government to measure up to their responsibility to ensure that specific guarantees enshrined in the Constitution are translated into reality for all our people. The particular matter to which I refer—and I do not want to be misunderstood in this either— is what appears to have been an organised campaign to interfere with, or break up, meetings organised by a movement called the Language Freedom Movement.

I do not mind at all confessing that I have given this matter some very serious consideration before deciding to raise it here. I did so because I recognise that in raising it, I am running the risk of being misrepresented and of being regarded in some way as speaking on behalf of that movement, a movement with which I am not in any way connected. Having considered the matter and having weighed up the position, I have come to the conclusion that it is clearly my duty to speak out here, knowing that in doing so, my action is in keeping with the traditions of this Party which has always stood solidly and four-square for free speech and the rule of law in this country.

It is common knowledge that meetings of the LFM have been so seriously interfered with in some cases as to lead to their abandonment. I want to make it clear that I have no connection at all with this movement, but I regard the position as one of considerable importance and gravity. Under our Constitution, certain specific guarantees are given with regard to free speech, the right to assemble peaceably and the right to form associations. Under the same Constitution, the Government are vested with the executive authority, and I do not think the Government can abdicate from that position. If there are, as I say there are, and I am certain I am right in this, specific guarantees given by the Constitution, it is the job of the Government to see that those guarantees are honoured. If the Government do not do that, there is no point in talking about democracy in this country. However one may disagree with the views expressed by an organisation, however one may deplore them, and one is entitled to deplore particular views expressed by any organisation or any section, so long as those views are views which may be legitimately held and legitimately expressed, the people holding those views are entitled to hold them and to express them. More than that, they are entitled to the protection of the Constitution in doing so.

I do not want to labour this matter, but I do regard it as of definite and fundamental importance. The Minister will appreciate it if I put it to him in this way. There was a gathering in the Mansion House during the last day or two. If there had been an organised campaign to disrupt the proceedings of the Fianna Fáil Árd Fheis, I am quite certain that every available member of the Garda in Dublin would have been called in on the authority of the Minister for Justice to prevent it and to ensure that the right of free speech and of peaceable assembly would be exercised by the members of the Fianna Fáil organisation.

The Minister would have been quite right to do that—that would be his job —and in doing it he would be ensuring for the Fianna Fáil organisation that the specific guarantees laid down in the Constitution were translated into reality. The same thing must be true of every other organisation in this country which expresses or holds views that may legitimately be held and expressed, whether the Minister or the Government, whether Fine Gael or Labour agree or disagree with them. That is not material. This is a matter in which the Government must accept responsibility. I am not criticising the members of the Garda Síochána because I understand that so far as they are concerned, there has been some kind of precedent concerning indoor meetings whereby they intervene only if called upon to do so but I do not think the Minister or the Government can be absolved from their responsibility in this matter. I do not think they can say that they had no reason to anticipate that disturbances would take place or that any effort would be made to suppress the right of these people to express their point of view in public.

This is a matter of some gravity for which the Government as a whole must accept responsibility and for which the Minister, being the head of the Department of Justice, must accept particular responsibility. Either the guarantees solemnly set forth in the Constitution mean something or they are simply pious aspirations. I believe they are intended to mean something and that they should be vindicated by the Government, that the democratic principles set out there should be applied and should be applied with evenhanded justice to all sections of the people who hold views which may legitimately be held and expressed in this country.

The failure of the Government in this connection is in very sharp contrast with the attitude of the Minister when dealing with the very peaceful and orderly demonstration undertaken in this city by the National Farmers Association. When the farmers of Ireland, in pursuance of a peaceful and orderly campaign to secure rights which they believed they were entitled to secure, entered this city and when they were not received by the Minister's colleague and chose to sit on the sidewalks outside Government Buildings, without being in any way disorderly, the Minister for Justice went on record as referring to the danger of mob law and he gave a lecture to some Fianna Fáil gathering in Clontarf on what democracy meant. I am quoting from the Irish Times of 24th October, 1966, where the Minister was reported as speaking at a Fianna Fáil convention for the Dublin North-East constituency at Clontarf. In the course of his remarks, he is reported as saying:

Apparently it is necessary to restate again the fundamental basis of democracy, which is that the power and right to govern came from God through the will of the people as expressed in the secrecy of the ballot box and functioning through the people's representatives in parliament.

Later on he is reported as saying:

It is the sacred duty of the present generation of Irishmen to ensure that the sacrifices made in the past to establish a democratic Irish country are not frustrated in the present and future by the ill-advised actions of pressure groups. It is our determination as a Fianna Fáil Government to resist such actions. As long as Fianna Fáil are in power they are not going to let mobs rule.

He went on to say:

We have no intention of allowing anarchy to develop in Ireland. History has shown that the only answer to anarchy has been an equally reprehensible system of dictatorship. As far as Fianna Fáil are concerned, this dangerous type of situation will not be countenanced.

All that was brought on by a peaceful and orderly demonstration of the farmers of this country. It did not suit the Government apparently to deal with the farmers or to see the farmers at that time, and their presence in Dublin, sitting outside Government Buildings, was obviously an embarrassment to the Government and the Minister lectures them and lectures the country on the dangers to democracy, apparently the dangers to democracy which were inherent in that peaceful and orderly demonstration.

My complaint is that there must be even-handed justice for all people and if the Minister sees in a peaceful and orderly demonstration of that kind, which is embarrassing no one except the Government, a threat to democracy, how much graver is the threat to democracy if meetings and assemblies which may lawfully be held to express views which may lawfully be held, are to be broken up without any action by the Minister or without any intervention by the Minister and those under the Minister's authority to protect them and to protect and guarantee the rights which are set out in the Constitution. I feel that the Government certainly cannot be proud of their action, or rather, their inaction, in the matter. I deplore it, without giving any support to the particular views held by that movement; but so far as their rights to hold those views are concerned, that is a matter on which I am quite clear and on which I think this House should be quite clear, if the democracy about which the Minister spoke in relation to the farmers is to be preserved as a reality for all sections of the people.

I should like to thank the Minister and his staff for the courtesy they extended to me on a few occasions on which I found it necessary to approach them on matters on which I wanted information and assistance. It is something which I assure them is appreciated by Deputies. All Ministers and Departments do not adopt the same attitude when they are approached.

On the figure given here of an increase of £1,150,100 in the Estimate, I should like to know whether or not there is any reference to the amount of £130,000 which the Garda Band was costing and which is not there now since they were disbanded because it would appear that this is an extra £130,000 which the Department of Justice would have had to expend for other purposes. In what way is it covered in the Estimate? Perhaps the Minister would comment on this when replying. Are we to take it that the cost is £1,280,000 more this year than last year?

In relation to the Garda Band, the Minister may remember that he gave a guarantee here that, while he did not propose to allow the Band to continue officially, he would give every facility to the members to continue to practice as musicians, if they so wished, either as a private group or in order to play at various functions. Will the Minister say if any such facilities have been given? Am I correct in saying that, in fact, everything has been done to prevent these men practising? The members of the Band have been scattered all over the place and given such duties as to make it impossible for any two or three of them to come together for practice.

The Minister proposes to change the deposition procedure. Those of us who have any slight knowledge of the law realise it is about time something was done about this. It does seem ridiculous to have this repetition with all the added expense.

A matter to which I should like the Minister to give his attention is the position of a person convicted of an offence and fined. I have a case in mind of a man who was fined £80. He appealed and won his appeal. That appeal cost him over £100. That seems to me to be a little too stupid for words. Surely if the State makes a mistake, the State should pay for that mistake? If the State had to pay, more care might be exercised about bringing cases without sufficient evidence. I have in mind the case of a person who was convicted of an offence and appealed. He won the appeal. Several years later he was charged with the same offence and was again convicted. Knowing well what an appeal would cost, he cannot now afford to appeal.

There was a murder trial some years ago. The accused was tried and acquitted. That man has been beggared as a result of that case because he had to sell a farm and realise practically every asset he had to cover his legal expenses, expenses to which the State put him. If the State makes a mistake, then the State should pay for that mistake: an innocent party should not be forced to pay for the State's mistake.

With regard to witnesses' expenses, it is almost impossible for ordinary working people, who cannot afford to be without their wages, to recover from the State their expenses as witnesses. At the conclusion of a case, it should be possible to estimate the expenses due and pay them out promptly. I am sure the Minister is well aware of the position. This sort of thing has probably happened in his own constituency. A man earning £10 a week may be in court for three or four days. He will get only half a week's wages. The State should pay him the other half, plus his travelling expenses and the cost of his meals. It took 18 months in one case for a witness to recover expenses.

In relation to stolen property, it is almost impossible in many cases to recover the property or the cost of the property from the State. The Minister is, I think, aware of the case in which three people were wronged by someone who was arrested, charged and convicted. Despite the fact that there was evidence to show these people had lost a considerable amount of property, the State was not even prepared to divide the property between them. For three long years, they kept dickering around trying to discover who was entitled to what portion of the property. After three Parliamentary Questions to the Minister here, it was agreed that a small portion would be paid out on account. I never heard such a procedure on the part of the State. One man got a small portion. He did not get anything like the amount of property originally stolen from him. What the others got I do not know. Possibly someone ruled that the others were entitled to a bigger share than he was, but he was a small businessman and he could ill afford to be treated in that way.

The Minister touched on the question of malicious injury. Local authorities are now beginning to wonder whether or not their rates will go up by 1/- or 2/- or 5/- as a result of malicious injury claims. It is time the State did something about this. Most business people are insured and it is nothing short of ridiculous to allow insurance companies to get away with not paying the compensation they would normally have to pay, were it not for the fact that the ratepayers will be mulcted. It is most unfair that this should happen. Often it is the sons of very wealthy people who do the damage that results in a malicious injury claim amounting to thousands of pounds. They are committed to a detention home for a few months and that is the end of it as far as they are concerned. Why not make their parents foot the bill? Why allow a situation in which people who can ill afford to pay their rates as it is are asked to pay for the malicious damage caused by some bright young sparks? Something will have to be done about this. There is no point in leaving the position as it is.

I am glad legal adoption has been such a success but there are still some little irritations because of regulations being adhered to too rigidly. The Minister might have a discussion with the various societies to see if something can be done. There is the question of accommodation. I know people who wanted to adopt children. Everything was perfect, good jobs and all the rest of it, but because they were living in flats, there was some kind of idea that flats were not proper places in which to rear children. A great many children in this city are being reared in flats. Some are being reared in one room. They turn out pretty well. Possibly the Minister might be able to have the regulations eased a little. That would help.

Censorship was getting a great deal of publicity a few months back. I have my own views on censorship. Today one finds that books are hailed as world masterpieces in which there are more rude words and material than appear in modern publications. These would be censored automatically, had they to go before a censorship board now. The fact is they are hailed by Church and State as almost essential reading for everyone. In the case of a modern publication in which some footling little word is used, one finds the book banned immediately. I think that is wrong. I know the system. I am a member of a library committee. Occasionally we get reports from readers that certain books are not suitable for public reading. Mostly we find these complaints come from one or two individuals, and in most cases there was nothing worse than some word like "damn" somewhere in the middle of the book, to which they took exception.

If we are to adopt a narrow-minded attitude to censorship, we are going the wrong way about it. The fact that we have even outside this country eminent clergymen who are prepared to say there is nothing harmful in books which our censorship board are condemning points to some little thing being wrong. Possibly there may be some way of dealing with this. I am not in agreement with the idea some people have that every book should be given freely into the hands of everybody but there is a happy medium and I do not think we have achieved that. I think we should.

As far as films are concerned, there is an awful lot of codology attached to them. While I agree we should not allow in our cinemas—particularly for children or those under 16, 17 or 18 years of age—the type of films which may have or are supposed to have, an effect on them, it is absolutely ridiculous to go into a cinema and find a film which is sliced to pieces, and why the public take this, either from the cinema people themselves or from the censorship board, I cannot understand. After all, we are adults and why things which we know and can see happening every day on the streets of this city are considered subjects which should not be allowed on the cinema screen, I cannot understand. We should try to make an attempt to have this straightened out. I agree there should be X certificates for certain types of films, but, taking the easy way out and slicing to pieces or spoiling an otherwise good film or story, is not solving the problem. The next step from that is the censor getting the scissors and cutting pages or half pages out of books and saying: "You can read it now; it will not make much sense but that is what I am going to allow in."

I note that the Minister made reference to the fact that the amount spent on Garda pensions has to be increased because a number of gardaí are retiring. The Minister might have gone a little further and said : "It is true that a number of the Garda, who were in fact responsible for setting up the force, are now retiring and this country owes a debt of gratitude to them which will be hard to repay"— and certainly will not be repaid by the type of pension to be paid to them when they come out. I believe everything possible should be done to assist these people in their retirement, because they are the people who, when it was not popular, established in this country a rule of law and to them must go the gratitude of the Irish nation.

We are often very much inclined to say: "Oh, he is an old garda; it is time he retired, got out of the way; he is not doing his stuff," but many people who talk in that way forget the origin of that Force and that these are the people who made it possible for us to live in this country and be a really civilised State. Now the question of their pensions has been referred to. I think they are entitled to decent pensions and the windows of those who have died are entitled to decent pensions. The present system whereby Garda widows have no income at all, except what they get by pension from the State and a noncontributory widow's pension—one of which is being weighed against the other—is scandalous. Perhaps the Minister might consider the question of insurance stamps for gardaí because if this were done, then their widows would be entitled, by right, to a contributory pension and it would mean that at least they would have something. The present system, of which we had instances over the past couple of years of an increase being given on one side of 10/-, resulting in a reduction of 15/- on the other side, should not be allowed to continue. When this was raised before, the Minister said he would have a look at it and see if something could be done. The ideal method would be to have insurance stamps for gardaí and in this way their widows would be entitled, by right, to certain pensions which would at least help them to exist.

Nobody in this country has more respect for the gardaí and for the way in which they carry out their duty than I, and I honestly believe we have one of the finest police forces in the world. I would be unfair, however, if I did not say that, in that police force, we have a small number of people we could very well do without. I am referring particularly to some of the younger gardaí—very few of them, thank God—who come into a country town and throw their weight around as though they were God Almighty. Imagine the situation in a town where there has been the best of relations between the responsible people and the Garda authorities, since the inception of the Force, when one or two young fellows come along and break that down in a couple of months.

I refer to the attitude adopted when somebody parks in a no parking place. All the garda has to do is go along and, if he wants to take a person's name, et cetera, do that courteously, but a garda coming along and telling one "to get to hell out of that" should not be allowed. It is absolutely ridiculous and the only reason why they get away with it is that most of us do not like running to superior officers with every complaint. But, if this is to continue, then something will have to be done by the people themselves; and I would be the last in the world to encourage the ordinary civilian to run with every complaint to the superior officers of these gardaí. Yet, if they continue to do it, I do not think we should stand for it.

I saw an incident a few weeks ago of a garda on point duty, doing an excellent job; two of his colleagues were standing on the footpath; an old lady came along in a car; the garda did not give her a very clear signal; she drove on and one of the gardaí on the footpath went over and, in the hearing of a hundred people—as loudly as he could—used the rudest expressions to her as to what she thought she was doing and proceeded to take her name and address. This is the sort of thing which should not be offered to the general public. In every country I have visited, I have found the police force very courteous and the same thing should be insisted upon in this country. I want to make it again clear that I am talking about a very small minority but one bad apple can easily ruin a barrelful and this sort of thing should not be allowed to continue.

We have also the question of people being taken into a Garda station for questioning. In most cases it is carried out as it should be. I heard one instance, less than 12 months ago, of two young boys who were taken into a Garda station at 8 o'clock in the morning, accused of setting fire to a rick of straw. The father of one of them came to me to say they had been detained, without his knowledge, until 9 o'clock that night—13 hours —and that they had left the station after having signed a written statement saying that they burned the straw. I said: "Well, if the lads admitted to it, it must be true". He said it was not true; he told me why and where they had been at the time the straw was burned. They were charged and two days before the court hearing came off, somebody else admitted burning the straw and the two lads had nothing to do with it. Would the Minister like to hazard a guess as to why the two boys of 17 or 18 years of age had made a statement admitting they had done something they had not done? I leave it to his own imagination. And I am told that this is not the only incident of that type. I am all in favour of getting a person who commits an offence, finding out and making sure they admit they committed it, but this procedure of forcing people to admit they did something which they did not do should not happen in this country. We will leave Dunne's Stores out of it for the time being.

Do not enter that field.

I am tempted to. The Minister referred to the number of motorised gardaí there are in the country, and to the gardaí with motor-cycles. They are doing an excellent job. We used to hear about the courtesy cops some time ago, but I often wonder does the expression "courtesy cops" fit some of the individuals I came across recently. However, they are doing an excellent job, but I have a suggestion to make to the Minister. When they are on a busy road, is there any reason why they cannot flag slow-moving vehicles into a lay-by, vehicles which are keeping a mile of other vehicles behind them? Is there any reason why tractors and trailers, or slow-moving lorries, cannot be asked to move into a lay-by for five minutes, to release the stream of traffic which is held up? This is done in other countries.

There is also the danger caused by the drivers who hop in and out, trying to make their way up the queue. Is there any reason why the garda should not be instructed to watch out for white line drivers, people who drive at 20 or 25 miles an hour with one wheel on each side of the white line, holding up everyone else, and creating a positive danger because they will not pull in? The Minister might suggest that this should be done, because while these gardaí are doing a good job, it could be improved on.

A few months ago I was driving very late at night in a new car in my constituency. Another car passed me out, and when it was in front of me, the driver pulled up and proceeded to drive at about 15 miles an hour. There were young boys in the car. After a while I attempted to pass out and they pulled across the road in front of me. Eventually they did let me pass and then the driver accelerated and passed me again. He drove through the next town on the wrong side of the road, and took a corner on the wrong side. He nearly caused me to run into the back of his car by jamming on his brakes. Eventually I got browned off and I stopped at a telephone kiosk and 'phoned the Garda barracks. I told them what had happened and asked them to do something about it. They said the squad car was not out that night but that they would see to it.

I gave them my name and address and asked them to check back with me. The next day they checked back and told me that the number I had given was the number of a tractor. I asked them to repeat the number and they repeated a wrong number. I gave them the correct number again, and they rang back the following day to say it was the number of a motor cycle. I checked again, and again it was a wrong number. This garda was one of those people to whom I have already referred. He was prepared to take short cuts, but he could not write down three letters and three numbers which I had given him on two occasions. However, by that time I had cooled down and decided to do nothing further about it.

The Minister and the previous speaker referred to the question of fines on the spot. Like the previous speaker, I am very interested to know how those 8,000 people who did not accept the fine on the spot got on, and how many in fact were fined when they went to court. It would be very interesting to know if the Garda are as good judges as the justices who try these cases. I have my own idea about this. I think it could be overdone. There is a temptation to use this as a revenue raiser. It is all right to use it to deter people who continually offend, but it is a little rough on the man who is asked to fork out £2 just because he stops his car in a wrong place once in a blue moon.

There has been a lot of discussion from time to time about one-way streets. I am a great believer in one-way streets. As a motorist, I think that they made a wonderful improvement in the traffic in this city, and that they are a wonderful time-saver. Occasionally when moving through the city as a pedestrian, I think they are desperate, because very little provision was made for people crossing the streets. Something should be done about D'Olier Street in particular. Otherwise, it will end up that someone living in that street will never be able to cross that street for the rest of his life, because the traffic is so bad.

I wonder if the Department have any views on the question of clearways. I am told that it is proposed to introduce clearways in certain areas. I know that on the Belfast road outside this city, it is nothing unusual to find two lines of parked cars, one on each side of the street, and one has to be very careful driving between those two lines at peak hours. The Department should recommend to whoever is responsible that this should be dealt with quickly. I know it is dealt with in Belfast very effectively.

On every occasion on which the Estimate for the Department of Justice has come before us, I have referred to the question of speeding. I do not drive very slowly myself but, at the same time, I know I must keep to the speed limits in areas where there are speed limits. It annoys me more than anything else when I slow down to 30 or 40 miles an hour, or whatever the speed limit is, a whole line of cars flashes past me and drives through the town without any reference to the speed limit.

And hoot at you for observing it.

That is right. Something should be done about this. If there is a garda in the street and if he sees traffic passing out a driver who is driving at a normal speed, it should be obvious to him that the other people are not observing the regulations. The tendency is—I have resisted it so far —to ask oneself: "If everyone else is doing it, why should I not do it?" I used to blame Northern Ireland drivers but now I am satisfied that the southern drivers are just as liable to do those things.

It is a very bad road.

A big part of it is very good.

Talk to Deputy Burke about Dublin where they are not doing their stuff.

Deputy Burke is doing his stuff.

The Minister referred to the new equipment being provided for crime detection. I was delighted to hear about the unit that has been provided, but I do not think the expense of putting in sleeping and cooking accommodation was really necessary. I do not think that there are any parts of Ireland in which it is not possible to get a hotel at a reasonable distance, or a meal. This is one of the places where we tend to go a little too far.

We had a reference to the incidence of crime. As Deputy O'Higgins said, we are now dealing with the Estimate for 1964-65. I do not agree with him that it is a fruitless exercise, merely because we have already given permission to spend two-thirds of last year's Estimate. We all know we must approve an Estimate for the Department of Justice because otherwise the Department could not carry on. Unless we were to refuse completely to give any money at all, there would not be any weight in the argument of the sort put up by Deputy O'Higgins. There is still enough money left unspent at this time of the year for us to prevent its spending. We have no intention of doing that but I think it should be pointed out that there is sufficient money left unspent when we come to discuss the Estimate at this time of the year.

With reference to the number of crimes committed, again we are entitled to complain about the laxity of certain justices in dealing with criminals who come before them. I shall instance a case of a man who had worked very hard to build up a business and had his cash register broken into and £60 taken. He reported the matter to the Garda and within an hour, they told him they had got three fellows who had done the job. He asked them what about his £60 and they told him they would not get it because it had been hidden away. He said: "I hope they get 12 months," and he was told by the Garda: "They will hardly get 12 months. They will get about six months. They are already on probation in respect of a number of other crimes they have committed and they will be sentenced for the lot together. They will not get more than six months." These jokers had been caught before, had been let out on bail and proceeded to break into this man's premises and a number of others knowing well that all the cases would be heard together and that the softhearted district justice would wind up giving them a sentence covering the entire activities. Therefore, they said: "We might as well be caught for a sheep as a lamb."

This is something the Minister will have to take cognisance of. He will have to ensure that in cases like this the punishment must be made to fit the crime. I do not know whether it was mental telepathy, but I was making a note of a suggestion that struck me when Deputy O'Higgins made the same suggestion. It is the question of making such people pay compensation. I suggest it would be a far better deterrent than sending them to jail. If they go to jail they cost the State about £10 a week. In view of the fact that old age pensioners have to try to live on less than 50/- per week, are we not, in fact, punishing ourselves rather than the criminal? I suggest that a system through which they would be made to pay compensation should be devised. It might be a very easy matter but on the other hand if we say that a criminal pays compensation of £50 and that if he does not pay it he will go to jail it does not give very much opportunity of forcing the issue. There must be some system devised under which these people would not be a burden on the State while the unfortunate people who have been robbed are still at a loss.

Still on the question of justices, my car was broken into. One of the girls in the office who had seen the offence being committed came down the city with me and she recognised one of the people who had broken into the car. They had not taken anything because they were interrupted. I stopped the car and caught one of the men. I could not get a garda to take him into custody and I had to let him go. I then reported the matter to the Garda Síochána and the girl described the men. Three weeks afterwards, they were caught committing a similar offence. The girl who had recognised one of the men earlier was taken down and she again recognised him. He gave the name of another fellow and she identified the second fellow. A very rude sergeant asked me if I could identify them. I said I had never seen them committing the offence and the sergeant was anything but polite, though he knew perfectly well that I had not seen the offence being committed.

I was asked to go to court when the case was at hearing to give evidence that the car was mine. Going into the court, a group of hangers-on of the type so common around practically every court in the country, vulture types looking for a bit of fun, began to make what they thought were funny remarks about the girl going into the court to give evidence. They were not outside the court: they were standing in the passages of a court in this city. I cannot see why such people are not chased out of it, why they do not do some work or something useful. They should not be allowed to loiter there turning the court into a pantomime.

However, that was not the worst feature of the case. The district justice cross-questioned that girl. She said she recognised one of the men by a bird he had tattooed on his hand. He asked her how far away she was from it when the offence was being committed. She said 50 yards and he remarked that she must have very good sight if she could distinguish the bird at that distance. He was trying to break her down, making a case for the defence, though the fellow had pleaded guilty. The justice then proceeded to lecture me. I had left an overcoat in the car and he told me it was people like me who were the cause of all the crime in the city. I need not say he got a rude answer and I hope he learned a little from it. I submit that the Minister usefully could suggest to district justices that they try cases without these smart comments. It is usual when a case is over for a justice to lecture somebody. I suggest these gentlemen would be doing a better day's work for the money they are paid if they did their job properly——

Hear, hear.

The Minister referred to newspaper reports. Though from time to time we find reports which we consider to be a little bit near the line, by and large newspaper reporting here is far in front of many other countries. Looking at reports here, particularly of court cases, one is struck by their superiority to those in the newspapers in other countries, even in newspapers imported here. It will be agreed that newspaper reporting here very seldom goes outside the mark.

The question of prisons and the treatment of prisoners has been referred to. The Minister and his predecessors have done a good job in making prison life reasonably bearable. It is not our intention, as has been suggested from time to time, to make it a hotel life. One class who do not get sufficient credit for the work they do are the prison officers. They do a thankless job well. They need two qualities: one, they have to be tough enough to do their job and two, they have to be humane enough to prevent people from becoming hardened criminals. I suggest they should be much better paid than they are. The Minister may consider they are getting a reasonable rate but for a special job like that we need a special type of personnel and when we succeed in getting them we should see to it that they are adequately compensated.

Reference was made to young offenders and it was suggested that youth clubs might prove to be a better deterrent than the cat or the cane. The Minister suggested recently——

——that some such system should be evolved. I am inclined to agree with him. I do not think physical punishment or, indeed, punishment of any kind will do. The Minister said——

I did not see the Deputy at the Ard Fheis yesterday.

This morning's radio programme gave practically nothing but what happened there. I always switch on the radio in the morning and I had to listen to it. I think the infliction of punishment often gives a certain amount of satisfaction to people. I often wonder, accordingly, whether people who want heavy punishment inflicted in certain cases feel like that because they get a certain amount of satisfaction out of the infliction of punishment on others.

One other reason why the payment of compensation in certain cases would be much better is that unless somebody wants to punish people in particular, it does not make much sense. The Minister should devise a system whereby the gardaí could attempt to find out if youthful offenders are sons or daughters of wealthy people, as they often are. If they are, then those people should be made pay compensation. I have no doubt whatever about this. If we can hurt the parents, they will see to it that the necessary punishment is meted out to the people who have caused the hurt to them. I honestly believe that a lot of our trouble with regard to juvenile offenders is caused by lack of parental control and the Minister can do nothing about this.

We hear about people coming from good homes. What is actually meant is that they come from well-to-do homes. I know people living in homes just about on the borderline of starvation but they were well regulated homes, whereas you will find people coming from a £10,000 home but they are not any better citizens because of this. Where the children of well-to-do parents commit this type of offence, which some of them seem to have a flair for, the Minister should insist on adequate compensation being paid by the parents.

I am chairman of a development association in my own area. Some time ago two little brats came on holiday there. They camped out and did damage to the extent of £18 to warning signs which were put up in relation to dangerous beaches and rivers. The gardaí caught them. They were fined the cost of the damage they did. If they had been brought to the Juvenile Court, they would have been lectured and told to be good boys. I am quite sure those youths will not do damage to public property again because most of the money which had to be paid came out of their pocket money.

Youth groups have been mentioned here. They are very good. The Minister may not agree with me about this but I consider that one of the best movements is the Boy Scout movement. Apart from teaching self-reliance to youngsters, it teaches them discipline and this is one of the things which each one of us can benefit from.

I was a boy scout once.

Nobody would ever believe it. You must have been the biggest boy scout in the country.

That was down in Westport.

I am sorry for interrupting the Deputy.

You did not. I am glad of a breathing space. Youngsters should be encouraged to take part in organised games. The Minister might succeed in encouraging people who come into his hands to take part in organised games. When they come out, they might encourage other children to take part in those games.

One of the greatest scandals which has been allowed to continue in relation to the Department of Justice concerns jury service. The Minister knows that many of those people who are in business life and many other walks of life are called upon to act on juries. After being there for God knows how long, either on call or acting on the jury, they find that the money they get will not pay for their meals for the period during which they were sitting, not to speak of the loss of business and everything else.

We are bringing in a Bill after Christmas to deal with this.

I hope the Minister will introduce a Bill which will deal with this subject. As the matter stands, it is absolutely ridiculous. The unfortunate thing about this is that many of the jurors I have spoken to have told me that they have been picked out for some reason or other. They find that others who should have been picked have not been picked.

The Minister referred to the Land Registry. Let me say here that I have had occasion to make a number of inquiries from the people in the Land Registry and I found them most courteous and patient. They seem to be very short staffed there. The Minister stated he is trying to get over this by employing temporary staff. The people who have been carrying on the work there over the years, and particularly since the passing of the Land Act, have done a wonderful job with such a shortage of staff. I should like to pay a tribute to those people.

Most people think that all they have to do is inquire about their particular case and it will be cleared up in the twinkling of an eye. There must be hundreds, if not thousands, of cases which they have to deal with. It seems the Minister has some difficulty in getting staff. There may be some reason for this. Perhaps it is because the wages are too low. I am quite sure that young people who come on the labour market every year would fill those vacant posts if the salary was right. There must be some good reason why the Minister cannot get people to fill those posts. If it is just salary, perhaps he would have a look at it.

Reference was made here by Deputy O'Higgins to the farmers' march. I am not saying this in any spirit of carping criticism but I consider that the question of protection during the farmers march was overdone. I do not know on whose advice it was done but I know that farmers coming through the country knew many of the people in the different towns through which they were passing. They respected the people in those towns and they were respected by those people. There was no necessity to have Garda protection to see they did not break any windows or do anything out of the way. That was needless expense. Their behaviour during the march through the country from the time they reached the city boundary, during their march through the city, during the time they were sitting out on the steps until the time they left, was exemplary. It was an example of good citizenship. It was quite unnecessary to ring them around with gardaí and try to give the impression that they were dangerous people.

It is not for the sake of carping criticism I am saying this. I am saying it because I sincerely believe those people should not have been treated the way they were. It should not have been necessary to have such a large force of gardaí in order to give the protection which was apparently afforded to Seán Citizen against those marauders. I have nothing further to add except to say to the Minister, as I said at the start, that on the few occasions I approached him and his officials, I found them most courteous. If they could do something, they did it, and if they could not do it, they said so. I am greatful for that.

I want to begin on the note on which Deputy Tully finished. Since the Minister for Justice took office, he has been a most courteous man. He has been helpful to all Deputies. He has brought that humane touch to his Department and we are grateful to him. I also want to say the same about his staff. They are particularly good and courteous at all times. The Department of Justice have been most charitable and have looked at things in a very broad way. For that reason it is a model in relation to the way we consider justice should be meted out in our country.

One matter to which I should like to refer is in relation to assaults outside dancehalls and so on, interfering with young people as they go about their business. The Commissioner and the Garda are doing a wonderful job and the Minister has this problem under review. Any action which can be taken which will mean that people can walk through the city without hindrance will be welcome. I am not talking now about children but about youths at dances who for some reason or other do not like the colour of John Murphy's clothes and consequently will waylay him on his way home and beat him up. Often this type of assault is responsible for a young boy or girl being an invalid in after life. Any savage assault in this city—I do not care if it was perpetrated by my own brother—should be dealt with ruthlessly. It is a shocking thing to assault anybody, especially where flick knives are used. Fortunately, the Minister is bringing in legislation to deal with this type of knife.

Some years ago we had the "Animal Gang" and other gangs operating here, and the gardaí dealt with them as they should be dealt with. Every city in the world has this problem. Some of the youths concerned are well-to-do. Some of them want to beat up somebody at night time and they will bring with them their flick knives, steel combs and such things. If the Minister can bring in legislation to prevent these rascals from interfering with ordinary decent people, be they young or old, it would be very welcome. As I said before, I am not referring to children because children will be children, and we all had our ups and downs as children when we were going to school. The people to whom I am referring are in or around the 19 years of age mark and up to 25 years of age. Perhaps one way to deal with this problem would be to put more policemen in plain clothes and have them on duty outside dancehalls especially. The offenders in these cases should be given a good stretch in jail. I would send them to jail without giving them an opportunity of appealing. This would only require to be done for about one year and the problem would be solved. In bad cases I would sent these offenders to jail for three years, not to St. Patrick's and I would have them making roads or doing something useful.

These people would not like it if somebody assaulted their brother or sister and caused injury. I am aware of one case in which a man was assaulted in Parnell Square a few years ago and he is now an invalid and is being treated by a psychiatrist. Why? All because of some venom or other.

In regard to juvenile crime, I cannot speak too highly of the voluntary organisations which have organised youth clubs in the city. I am associated with some of them and they are doing a very good job. Another point is in regard to children leaving industrial schools. There is a big void in their lives when they leave these schools where they have no relatives. It is a social problem of some magnitude and I am aware that the Minister is anxious to help this type of child because I had discussions with him on the matter. His Grace the Archbishop of Dublin is endeavouring to have homes established for them. Perhaps if the Minister established a committee to advise him it would be a help. Sometimes when these children leave these schools, they are placed with a family and sometimes they may leave that family or they may leave their employment. Probation officers and others will look after them but there is a danger where a person of 16 or 17 has no place to go. It is a charity to do something for these young people. I know that this more or less comes under the Department of Education, Minister, and that it is not your Department. I am sorry, a Cheann Comhairle——

The Deputy should address the Chair and not the Minister.

I am addressing the Chair.

The Deputy is addressing the Minister.

I am sorry if I transgressed the rules of courtesy and I apologise. Another matter to which I should like to refer is that in County Dublin there are some gardaí who could be a little more co-operative with publicans.

What is the nature of the co-operation proposed?

The Deputy is a patient man and if he will give me a chance, I will explain. I have had reports from a particular area of a garda staying outside a public house night after night, especially during the summer. This is a holiday resort and people like to go in for a drink for the road or a sing-song, and some of them stay a long time over a drink. Sometimes the publicans will do their best to get the people out at closing time but in a lounge where you have 200 or 300 people, there will always be a Denis Jones or a Paddy Burke who will want to stay until the end—or maybe a Mr. Dillon, if I met him down there. The garda rushes in after being outside all night, closes the door and starts to take the names of people——

Is there not ten minutes allowed?

Drinking up time.

He comes in dead after the ten minutes are up and if there is anybody there, he will start to take names. All he need have done was use his intelligence, especially during the holiday period, with holiday-makers about and possibly some of his own colleagues also there. If he only walked into the place and out again, it would be cleared. The people operating these public houses are not the type who will stay open after hours. These situations call for a little discretion. That would be of benefit to all concerned and would alleviate much of the nervous strain.

I have been thinking for quite a while that perhaps we should try to put more responsibility in this matter on the customers. Frequently the publican ceases to serve exactly at 11 o'clock but he then has to try to get out the customers and invariably one or two will linger over their whiskey or bottle of stout. If the fine in the case of the customer were increased, it would mean that a man or woman who was fined once would never again be found in a public house after hours. I know one publican who is suffering from nervous tension. This is particularly apparent in the holiday period when he is harassed by a particular garda standing outside, rushing in exactly on time and doing all these other things. That is wrong. Surely we have an old spirit of give and take. If a publican is doing wrong and serving drink after hours, he deserves to be fined, but according to statements this publican has made to me from time to time, that is not the case.

I have great respect for the Garda in County Dublin, for the Commissioner and the whole organisation. I have found them to be reasonable but there is the exception and, while I know there is no provision in the Act to allow a garda to use discretion, surely the Minister in a democratic State or the Secretary of the Department or the Commissioner will not condemn a garda for using discretion? The Garda get much co-operation in the prevention of crime from publicans. Publicans are more helpful than any other section because they have their ear to the ground and know what goes on in their districts. In that way they can help the Garda to keep down crime, or at least find out who is committing it. I should like the Minister to ask the Garda, especially those who are not co-operating and those who feel they must be severe and that they will gain promotion by fining people all the time, to use discretion. It is very poor police duty just to watch publicans and fine them. Any old fool is capable of doing that but the garda, sergeant or superintendent who succeeds in keeping down crime in his district is doing something worthwhile.

I do not want any leniency in relation to the licensing laws. I was in this House when both Acts were going through and we got all the information necessary from the Minister's predecessor. Since I cannot refer to legislation, I shall leave for another occasion another point I had intended to raise.

There is a small section of gardaí who did not opt to take their gratuity but opted instead for a pension. I have discussed this matter with the Minister's predecessor, with himself and others, and I know these gardaí got every opportunity to make their decision at the time but I would ask the Minister if he would reconsider their cases. Only about 150 are involved and they are now very anxious to get their gratuities and half their pensions, whereas they would be entitled to two-thirds of their pay and allowances as a pension otherwise. At the time they got the option, their pay was perhaps rather low and they were married men, and some of them felt that perhaps the two-third pay and allowances would be better. Times have changed and these men have changed their minds. I would be grateful if the Minister would look into the matter.

I wish to direct the attention of the Minister for Justice to the fact that on the Estimate for Transport and Power, I had certain observations to make in regard to one-way traffic arrangements in the city of Dublin. In as much as these observations were of a congratulatory nature and in as much as we have to find fault with the Garda administration from time to time, I should be gratified to know that the observations I had to make in that regard would be drawn to the attention of the Garda Commissioner so that he may know that we in this House are not invariably committed to criticising everything and that when the opportunity presents itself of complimenting the Garda, we are happy to avail of it.

I want to refer to the practice of closing rural Garda stations which has long been a subject of contention within the Government and of discussion here. I regard the practice as thoroughly unsound. The primary duty of the Garda is not to detect criminals but to prevent crime. In the unhappy event of crime being committed, naturally the Garda will address themselves with all diligence to the detection of the criminal but the ideal situation is that the crime should not be committed at all. That ideal situation very largely depends on the ubiquity and continued presence of the gardaí as respected members of the community which they are charged to serve and protect. It is wholly illusory to imagine in rural Ireland that any motorised patrol or any body of gardaí entering a rural area from a relatively remote central Garda station can achieve the results which will be produced by the garda resident in the area.

I have lived for a long time in rural Ireland and my experience is that where you have a Garda station and the gardaí secure the confidence and respect of the people they serve—as almost invariably they do, in rural Ireland—there spreads among the community the common conviction that petty crime does not pay because so close and intimate are the relations of the resident gardaí with the community they serve that anyone who is tempted to engage in petty crime knows that the local gardaí will learn of it from the neighbours very quickly. The supreme deterrent of crime will then operate, that is, prompt apprehension. Heavy penalties have never been a remedy for crime——

Hear, hear.

——but the certainty of prompt apprehension is the most powerful deterrent of all. That exists where those who labour under temptation know that the local resident gardaí will be fully informed of what has transpired within 24 hours of the perpetration of a crime. That comes from their intimate acquaintance with the people and the trust the people have in them that they are servants and faithful servants of the community in which they live, and because the people have ceased to look upon them as a force of oppression, which, not unnaturally, was a commonly held view amongst our people half a century ago.

Recently, the Minister decided to close the Garda station in Inniskeen in County Monaghan. I think that was an extremely obscurantist decision. The supervision of that area has been transferred to the Garda station at Carrick-macross. I do not apprehend any sudden outbreak of crime in Inniskeen but I am certain the local people resent the decision gravely. I am of opinion that the decision was taken not on the ground of sound administration but as the Minister's contribution to a general economy campaign which was inaugurated by the Department of Finance at that time. I object to it. I think the Minister's decision was mistaken and I believe if he consults the competent Garda authorities, they will confirm my view. I did address representations to the Minister on the occasion of the closure and I drew attention to the resentment created amongst the local people by the decision, but was informed that that decision had been taken and could not be changed. I still think the decision was mistaken and ought to be reviewed.

In general—although I do not want to argue from the particular to the general; I would rather argue from the general to the particular in this case— the same principle applies to other rural Garda stations in Ireland, and the Minister will be under continual pressure from the Department of Finance to close rural Garda stations on the ground that the absence of petty crime in the areas is such as to make it amply justifiable to close a Garda station for the reason that it is no longer required owing to the peaceful, orderly condition of the area in which it is located and that substantial economy could be achieved if the station is closed.

The Minister for Finance is not primarily concerned with the complicated problem of maintaining the blessed state of law observance which obtains throughout rural Ireland. He is primarily concerned with reducing the total of the Estimate for the Minister for Justice with a view to lightening the burden on the Budget he has to present to this House. Those of us who have lived abroad in the United States of America, Great Britain and elsewhere and who have seen the results of crime feeding upon itself, recoil with horror from the suggestion that one of the most precious assets we have, that is, the widespread peace and observance of the law throughout rural Ireland, should be frittered away for trivial monetary economies which will be eaten up twenty times over in trying to recover the atmosphere of peace and good order we now have, by the closing down of the Garda stations and the separation of the people from the intimate contact with the Garda Síochána allowing the development of an epidemic of petty crime. It could very easily eventuate if the intimate relations which at present happily exist between the Garda Síochána and the people were disrupted by a widespread policy of closing down rural stations, which, I apprehend, the Minister may be under heavy pressure to accept as the kind of economy made necessary by the economic chaos that Fianna Fáil have brought upon this country. However, let us be clear on this: whatever ancillary value the peripatetic patrol of gardaí in cars and motor cycles may have, it is no substitute for the local Garda station as a preventative of crime. It may be a powerful adjunct in the detection of crime but the Minister for Justice should be far more interested in the prevention of crime than in its detection and the punishment of criminals.

I want further to impress upon the Minister that the only effective way to control the occasional outbreaks of violence that do occur in our cities, Dublin, Cork, Limerick, is the perennial Garda patrol of a specified beat. Without the presence of a garda or gardaí who could make themselves familiar with the normal population of an area, peripatetic motor patrols are useless except for the purpose of the detection of crime. The garda on the beat who becomes familiar with everybody in the area where his responsibility lies almost invariably can detect potential or intending criminals in his neighbourhood and can either check on them forthwith or else recognise and apprehend them immediately if they become involved in criminal activity.

I do not want to elaborate further on that because I think the case speaks for itself. However, I believe it is right to emphasise in this House what is only too often forgotten by those who are primarily concerned with the financial aspect of the administration of the law, that it is the prevention of crime which is precious and that prevention is relatively cheap as compared with detection, if crime should be allowed to multiply. Therefore, both on social and economic grounds, I have no hesitation in urging on the Minister that he should defend energetically the practice of keeping the Garda Síochána in constant and intimate touch with the people and that he should emphasise to the Government how infinitely precious that asset is to the community as a whole. Remember that the confidence and trust of the people in the Garda Síochaná is an asset beyond price. Should we lose it, it would take a generation to recover it and, in the meantime, our economic losses would be immeasurable, not to speak of the social catastrophies which would inevitably ensue.

If safe driving is a concern of the Minister for Justice, might I impress upon him the urgency of making representations to his colleague, the Minister for Local Government, to press local authorities to restore the white line? There is growing up a deplorable habit amongst local authorities that when they carry out resurfacing of roads, the white line is not re-established for months or even sometimes for a year after the resurfacing has been completed. I do not wish to minimise the problems of the local authority but I do think the Minister for Local Government at the instance of the Minister for Justice might properly say to the local authority that in a plan of resurfacing, it cannot involve any serious complication that when the resurfacing is completed, it should be regarded as an integral part of the operation to restore the white line before the job is regarded as completed.

There is nothing more maddening than when driving in intermittent fog, to come suddenly upon the patch of road where the white line fades out. Driving becomes highly dangerous in these circumstances, not through any fault of the driver, but because he has for seven or eight miles of the road depended upon the white line to be a help in careful and scrupulous driving and suddenly finds himself driving into a length of the road where no white line exists. So, if safe driving is within the Minister's ambit of responsibility, I would direct his attention to that problem which I think could be relatively easily solved.

Now I have to talk about a very grave matter. There are two matters of which I wish to speak which are of substance and I hope the Minister will not think me guilty of any discourtesy in dealing with one of them if I have to acknowledge and refer to the letter the Minister sent me about a man who was sentenced to a month in jail. The Minister very courteously sent me a letter on 14th May desiring to reassure me of the circumstances of a person whose case I had raised in the House. I appreciate the Minister's courtesy in this matter but I want to compare the tone of the letter he sent to me on 14th November relative to this man with the tone of his discourse on 12th October when I first drew his attention to him.

I raised the case of a man here on 14th November. At column 1088, volume 224, I asked the Minister for Justice the following question:

whether his attention has been drawn to the circumstances in which a homeless and friendless man was sentenced to one month in jail at the District Court in Swords, County Dublin, for stealing 10/- which the Garda stated they accepted he wanted to buy food, being both physically and mentally ill; and whether he will release this man from jail and ensure that the appropriate social services will be alerted to protect him and to provide such service as his essential welfare may require.

The Minister replied to that question and there was a series of replies to supplementary questions and finally, at column 1091, I said:

Very well; I give notice that I wish to raise this matter on the Adjournment.

I do not suppose that I raise a matter on the Adjournment once in five years in this House. It is an extreme course to which I have recourse very rarely but I raised the matter on the Adjournment because I felt there was a great fundamental principle of liberty and law at stake.

I did not, and I do not now, doubt that the Governor of Mountjoy is a very humane man. When I was much younger than the Minister, when I first came into this House, I felt it my duty to visit all the jails in the country because I felt that if you were coming in as a legislator to enact laws which sent people to jail, you had to go and see what kind of place a jail was. I visited all the jails in the country and the one common feature that struck me about them was the humanity and understanding not only of the governors but of the senior officers in the jails. I did not have much contact with the junior officers of the prisons staff and I am not qualified to speak about them. The senior officers of the staffs of all the jails were most humane and understanding men. I was greatly reassured.

I still remember Portlaoise was a prison in which you could eat your dinner off the floor and Mountjoy smelled disagreeably, which rather shocked me, but it was pointed out that it was extremely difficult to keep Mountjoy in the same highly aseptic condition as obtained in Portlaoise because, in Portlaoise, you were there for three years or longer and were incorporated into a kind of limited and disciplined society and certain standards could be maintained but there was a rapidly overturning population in Mountjoy. No sooner had you got them cleaned up but they were gone out again, and they were back again in a condition which required cleaning up a second time and it was not so easy to keep Mountjoy as fragrant as the other establishment managed to be. That was very understandable.

I always remember a venerable gentleman with whiskers asking me to have a cup of tea and being told by a benevolent chief warder that "he must be in this time as a Protestant parson. He is in and out of this place all his life. When he comes in clean-shaven, he has been conning them as a Catholic priest; when he comes in with the whiskers, he has been conning them as a Protestant parson. He comes in and out like a fiddler's elbow, goes to the kitchen, has his post there and is able to furnish anyone who comes visiting with a cup of tea". I had a cup of tea from him. The atmosphere was humane and understanding. It was generally understood that this gentleman had the same weakness for con work which might be described as kleptomania if it were thieving that was his particular fault.

In a sense, one could say that that man was mentally unstable but in a sense it could be said that anybody who commits sin is mentally unstable. One has to be practical in these matters. The habitual criminal is the habitual criminal. Deal with him as humanely as you can and with as much understanding as you can, but one has to face the fact that if society is to function, people cannot go out and habitually break the law and claim immunity on the ground that they are erratic. Some commonsense, reasonable line must be drawn, on one side of which penal treatment is appropriate and on the other side of which psychiatric treatment is appropriate or the implementation of social services. It is desperately important that that line should be recognised and observed.

It was because in this case it appeared to me that there had been a specific finding by the District Justice that the man was mentally ill—there is evidence tendered by the Garda Síochána in the course of the criminal proceedings that the man was mentally ill—that I felt bound to draw the attention of the Minister to it and to say, no matter how exasperating the repeated offences of this individual may be, the moment a judicial person finds that a man arraigned before him is mentally ill, it is not appropriate to apply criminal sanctions against him. It would have been different if the case had been that the judicial person trying this case had said: "This is the eighth, ninth, or tenth time this man has come before me for trivial offences, and even though there are extenuating circumstances in this particular case, his record of petty crime is so long and so sustained that I must overlook the extenuating circumstances that surround his case—his hunger, his poverty, his need for money to buy food—and prescribe a period in jail for him because I believe that with his long history of petty crime, the best way to get him straightened out is not to exercise the discretion of mercy which I might ordinarily do where the specific circumstances surrounding the case were of a relatively trivial nature, and I accordingly sentence him to a month in jail".

That is not what happened. What happened was that the District Justice said: "I find that this man was mentally ill", and then he went on to say: "but I find that in the society in which we live, there is no other way to deal with him but to send him to jail". What shocked me was that the Minister for Justice seemed to subscribe to that doctrine. It is wholly untrue to say that we live in a society in which a person mentally ill cannot be disposed of except by putting him in jail. Far from its being true, my submission to Dáil Éireann is that it is the exact reverse of the truth. Our law requires that if a person is mentally ill, he shall not be sent to jail. It would be a disastrous proposition if we accepted the principle in Dáil Éireann that, if a difficult social problem presented itself in our courts of law and if it were convenient and expedient to resolve it by tossing the problem case into Mountjoy for a month because he was poor and friendless, that was the right thing to do.

I remember rejoicing once with the Chief Justice of this country that there was one characteristic of our society of which we could justly be proud. If the poorest or humblest creature in the country had his fundamental rights abridged, he could ultimately find his way into the Supreme Court. Further, if he was not equipped by education or by temperament to put his case with all the force and emphasis a skilled advocate could do so, then the Chief Justice himself would constitute himself the champion of the aggrieved party, and the more abandoned he was, the more unsympathetic a figure he was, the more certain it was that, if he threw himself on the discretion of the highest court in the land, the highest judges of that court would themselves charge themselves with the protection of his fundamental rights.

How can we reconcile that mutual collaboration between the legislators of this country and the Chief Justice with the circumstances of this case? If that were a relative of mine or if that were a relative of the Minister for Justice, we would have a writ of habeas corpus out within an hour of that decision having been taken. I do not believe there is a High Court Judge in Ireland who would not grant a writ of habeas corpus directing the Governor of Mountjoy to release the man instantly on the facts as universally admitted.

But when I proceeded to discuss this in Dáil Éireann, not for the purpose of alleging there was some terrible conspiracy to undo this unfortunate man, who in fact had been sent to Mountjoy for a month for what would be described as burglary or housebreaking according to the hour of the day he entered the premises for the purpose of taking a few shillings to buy food, the Minister for Justice said at column 1235:

Now let us get back to the facts and away from the hysterical bluff which surrounds a lot of this matter. As far as the court was concerned, the fact of the matter was that this unfortunate man was under a suspended sentence of six months for a conviction one month before that in respect of six distinct charges of theft involving substantial sums of money. There was a history of this type of offence in the case of the man who appears, while not to be insane in the fullest medical sense, at least weak-minded. This is the criminal background that was before the justice in this case. I am quite satisfied the justice did the right thing in the case.

Earlier on, the Minister said:

I can assure the Deputy that all the lay, medical and psychiatric advice is to the effect that this man is being very well looked after where he is. I am sure the Deputy will accept that advice. This man is under top-class medical and psychiatric care for the short period in which he will be in jail. I would say he is probably being much better looked after in that respect than he would be outside.

Does the Minister, on reflection, realise the appalling nature of what he is saying?

It is time he did. I am glad I have this opportunity of refreshing his memory. He is not fit to be Minister for Justice if he thinks he or anybody else in this country has the right to toss a man into Mountjoy because he thinks it is good for him.

I did not throw him in. The court put him into jail.

Neither the court nor anybody else has the right to toss a man into jail because he thinks it is good for him. If a man in all the circumstances of the specific case in respect of which he appears before the court is appropriate for a jail sentence, then it is appropriate for the court to send him to jail. But it is not appropriate under our law, in my submission, to send any man of unsound mind——

The Justice so found. The Justice said he was satisfied the man was mentally ill—not only physically but mentally ill—and he went on to say he deplored the necessity of doing with this man what he had to do, but that there was no other way of dealing with him under our society.

The important fact to be affirmed in this House is that that statement is not true. I am glad to note from the Minister's letter that, whatever his brassy exterior in this House, his conscience was troubling him. Because if he thought I was actuated by nothing but hypocrisy and fraud, he would not have written to me on 14th September saying he was glad to be able to tell me that the prisoner now had a job waiting for him, that the offer of employment had come from a certain source in north County Dublin who had known the sentenced man previously and who had provided him with amenities appropriate to the employment.

I was helpful in the matter.

Exactly. Here is the right approach. Instead of tossing the man into jail, it seems to me everybody should have rallied around him, recognising he was a man with a problem, and done months ago what we have now done—put the fellow back on his feet, start him off again and recognise he was an individual who needed help and who was in fact a problem child.

I know the Minister did. But, when the matter was raised in this House, he described the raising of it as hypocrisy, bluff and fraud on my part. The important thing we have now made clear is—I do not do it for the purpose of publicly humiliating the Minister and I have expressed my appreciation of the courtesy of his letter—that the Minister was just being brazen and brash when he dealt with the inquiry I directed to him a month ago. He has now come to his senses and has recognised that what was done was, to put it mildly, inappropriate, and that what is now being done is what might have been much more advantageously done in the first place.

I want to say this concluding word on this topic. If I had not raised this matter again today and pointed out that second thoughts had been had in regard to this matter, the previous attitude of the Minister, which was not edifying, would have been the headline both for young Deputies in the House who learn from their seniors the correct approach in matters of this kind and, what is much more serious, for young members of the Garda Síochána.

I hope that the exchange we have had today will teach young Deputies that here is the place where no Minister can escape from the justification of his acts and that it does not matter how dirty, how poor, how friendless and homeless an Irish citizen is, the whole panoply of the law protects him from the violation of his rights and that justice is done for him with the same solicitude as it would be done for the President, the Chief Justice or the Ceann Comhairle of Dáil Éireann. That is an immense and precious principle to establish, not only for the afflicted amongst us but for those who hereafter may be our governors.

There is another matter to which I want to refer. I want to warn the House that some who are observers of our proceedings imagine that unless the benches of this House are crowded with an expectant audience, then speaking in this House serves no useful purpose. That is just because they do not understand fully the proceedings they are charged with the responsibility of reporting. Speaking in this House is a matter of record. A speech in this House reaches the people in so far as the topics raised here are of importance to the people. Therefore, while I welcome the arrival of Deputy James Tully into the House, I am not in the least concerned by the paucity of the audience I now address on a matter of great importance to the fundamental rights of our people. I refer to the disgraceful outrage that was permitted by the law enforcement authorities to take place in the Mansion House on the occasion of the public meeting held by the Language Freedom Movement.

What actually happened on that occasion was that a group of people called a public meeting for the purpose of presenting to the public a particular point of view. A carefully organised mob—I choose each of these words adverbial, adjectival and noun, with studied deliberation—went to that meeting and, under the direction of those who organised the mob, interrupted the proceedings by effectively conducting themselves is such a way as to prevent those who had called the meeting and, under the direction of those who organised the mob, interrupted the proceedings by effectively conducting themselves is such a way as to prevent those who had called the meeting from expressing their point of view. They had the effrontery, through their spokesman, to get up and to say, in effect: "Provided you conform to conditions which I now, as leader of this mob, lay down, we shall allow you to express your views." I think it is a tragic fact that two unfortunate Catholic priests, ministers of religion, allowed themselves to be used—I do not think they can fully have understood what they were doing—as a cloak of respectability for this brazen mob which had been organised for no other purpose other than to suppress the right of free speech.

Now, I do not give a fiddle-de-dee whether the meeting was called by the Language Freedom Movement or the anti-vivisection campaign or the old ladies who are worrying about the horses, cows, pigs, dogs or cats or anything else. Any citizen of this State who wishes to address his fellow-citizens on a matter of what he conceives to be of public interest within the law is entitled to do so and all the resources of the State should be deployed to protect that right. The moment we depart from that principle, the most precious fundamental liberty our people have is swept away—and, with this mob, carefully organised, the Garda Síochána stood idly by and said it was none of their concern.

Now, I have been through all this myself. I know how this thing works. I remember perfectly well in 1933, 1934 and 1935 that the Fianna Fáil Party at that time carefully organised mobs.

The reverse.

Let me tell the story as I remember it. The Minister is 32.

A few more years.

In any case, the Minister is too young to remember those days. I have gone to meetings in rural Ireland and there were two separate and distinct techniques. The Leas-Cheann Comhairle will remember these things as well as I do. One technique was that, if the mob thought it was strong enough, they advanced upon the meeting and tried to break it up. That was technique No. 1. But there was another thing. If the mob did not think it was strong enough to break up the meeting, it divided itself up into 12 or 14 knots of people and initiated an organised barrage of interruptions of a processional kind so that when knot No. 1 ceased interrupting, then knot No. 2 in another part of the crowd would start interrupting, and so on. The mob that tried to break up the meeting could be resisted if the number of those seeking to hold the meeting were sufficient to deal with the mob and break it up.

The second technique was more difficult. The mob approaching to break up a meeting could be dealt with effectively if the gardaí were allowed to do their duty because they simply formed a protective line, charged the mob, broke it up and drove it away. But if the No. 2 technique was used, the interruption technique, very often it operated in such a way as to make the intervention of the gardaí more effective for breaking up the meeting than the No. 1 technique because if the gardaí went into the crowd to remove interrupter No. 1, then interrupter No. 2 started and a similar action by the gardaí had to be undertaken and when that sort of thing had to happen continuously, it effectively broke up the meeting. That is frustration of an attempt lawfully to hold a public meeting in this country.

I want to warn the Minister that I saw that carried to the point at which the Fianna Fáil Party boasted that anyone who opposed them could not hold a public meeting in this country. I heard the Taoiseach of that day say in this House: "I cannot make you popular". It was a polite incitement to what he then thought was a mobocracy strong enough to prevent free public meetings. In those circumstances, we organised the Blueshirts. They were organised before I was a member of Fine Gael.

Is the Deputy boasting of that?

I say that the Blueshirts saved the right of free speech in this country.

What we are concerned with here is the action or inaction of the Minister's Department. The pros and cons of past political questions do not arise on the Estimate.

I am not talking about the pros and cons: I am talking about free speech.

We cannot have a discussion on the Blueshirts.

I went to address a meeting at Macroom once and the moment I started to address the meeting the local Fianna Fáil mob tried to shout me down. I was not a member of Cumann na nGaedheal and not a member of the Blueshirts, I belonged to the National Centre Party. I always remember a fellow saying from among the group: "Mr. Dillon, I do not agree with you but you have a right to speak". We suspended the meeting and the Blueshirts got the mob and "bet" them out of the square of Macroom and the fellow said: "I do not agree with what you are saying but you are free to say it". I then addressed the meeting.

I want the House to remember that the Blueshirts inherited a great tradition.

Do not be silly— Mussolini, my foot. We were then only ten years away from the founding of the State. This country was still alive with young people blazing with enthusiasm for the vindication of the sovereignty of this State and its inception. You have not got that now.

We cannot discuss the Blueshirts on the Estimate. We can discuss the action or inaction of the Minister and the Garda authorities but the policy of the Blueshirts may not be debated.

You have not got the enthusiasm that inspired these men now. Unless the forces of the State, the established forces of the Government under which we live, are charged actively and positively with the inescapable duty of protecting the right of any citizen of this State who wishes to promulgate his views in public within the law, the inevitable issue must be anarchy or the most loathsome form of dictatorship, that is, the dictatorship of the mob.

I think I know our people fairly well and they will recoil with hatred from the obligation of facing the mob. It is a very hateful experience as I well know, having done it so often. But, if I know our people, in the long run they will not submit to the dictatorship of the mob. The question then arises: who will control the mob? Will they be the uniformed forces of the State who have the authority of Oireachtas Éireann and the Government behind them, or will it be a body united in self-defence? Such a body organised in 1966 may be actuated by very different motives from those which actuated such a body in 1936. If the mob can break up meetings in this country, you are on the high road to anarchy. Be certain of that.

Now, the Minister's colleagues may imagine that the theme to be commended by the Language Freedom Movement in the Mansion House is not one which, superficially at least, will commend a volume of support and therefore they shrug their shoulders and forget: the incident is closed; we can forget about it. Do not forget about it. The next step was that a meeting was proposed for Galway; the mob threatened another attack, to ensure the speakers would not be allowed to talk at all and the meeting was abandoned. I want to say that in the organising of mobs of this character, there is no form of government under which we would not prefer to live rather than submit to the dictatorship of a party organised mob of that kind.

Let us make it as clear as crystal in Oireachtas Éireann that whatever cloak of respectability they try to assume, they are a common bloodthirsty mob and the appropriate treatment for them is to baton them, arrest them and imprison them as the most vile enemies the free institutions of this State could have. There is no external element that could do our nation the injury that is done by those organised mobs for the purpose of suppressing free speech in respect of sentiments which they do not happen to approve of. Unless the Minister is prepared to say now—and I think it is his solemn duty to say it—and to make it perfectly clear that any citizen of this State has the right, if he wishes to advance any themes within the law and will have that right vindicated by all the resources at the disposal of the State when he rolls out his barrel or puts out his chair in accordance with public order, to make his voice heard and to exhort his neighbour to share with him in a new order, we shall ultimately face anarchy.

I want to remind the Minister of this. Time and again in my public life I have had to deal with young people who have expressed impatience with the relatively slow progress with which new ideals and new hopes can be realised under parliamentary government and have said: "The time has come to go out and break windows, make the people sit up and listen." Do not forget we have had people picketing on both sides of this Chamber, in Kildare Street and in Merrion Street. Do not forget that we have had 30,000 tenants of the city of Dublin parading. I have argued with young people and said to them: "Listen, those methods may be justifiable when you are dealing with an alien authority, but if you disagree with the policies and activities of the Government of this country, you have your remedy, that is, to go out and fight hard within the ranks of a political Party of your choice and put the Government in. Then we can do what we like in accordance with the fundamental law of the State. If there is no political Party with whom you find yourself in complete sympathy, there is no reason why you should not roll out your own barrel. I did it. That is the way I entered public life. I rolled out my own barrel and I got elected to Dáil Éireann as an Independent Deputy. I ended up as Leader of the Opposition and a candidate for the position of Taoiseach". The moment a young person can say to me: "That is no longer true. If I roll out my barrel in the morning, if I get two or three friends to join with me, a mob will come up organised by a gentleman who claims to be a champion of high principles, flanked by a couple of priests, and in the name of Church and ideals will announce that they will not let me speak if I do not bow in the Hall of Rimmon, if I do not accept their conditions", then we are facing anarchy.

I want to know can I go on saying to young people of this country: "You have no right to talk of resorting to force for the purpose of promoting your view because there is a method available to you not only of getting your views heard but of making your views prevail. You could take over the Government of the country without impinging on anybody else's fundamental rights, without denying anybody else their opportunity of testing your views in public. But be sure of this, whether in the initial stages of your campaign you are popular or unpopular, so long as you act within the law all the resources of the State will be deployed to defend your right to make your case and seek your converts".

I want to say with great deliberation that unless I can hear from the Minister for Justice a clear reassurance on this topic, I am no longer conscientiously free to say to young people that action within the law is the proper way of changing the public policy of this country. If that mob and those who organised it are allowed to function further, sooner or later they will be acting with such force that we will not be able to turn them back. I want these people to receive deliberate notification from Oireachtas Éireann that we will not suffer such a mob to function because we know, with our collective experience, that sooner or later if they are not controlled, we will not be able to resist their aggression; and that the law of this country is that any man or woman has a right to address his neighbours in public in behalf of any cause within the law and that hereafter whatever cloaks they throw about them if they are a mob, they will be dealt with as a mob and those who claim their fundamental rights will be protected from their depredation.

I am well aware that fundamental rights are rarely assailed when the victim of the assault is somebody who is universally beloved. Such people need not worry about their fundamental rights. Fundamental rights are laid down for the protection of those who see the future sooner than their neighbours or who love causes their neighbours have no special sympathy for. Everything that has ever been worth doing in this world from the institution of Christianity has been done by people who in the initial stages of their mission have been the victims of persecution, misrepresentation and attack.

Let us not forget when we vindicate fundamental rights in this country, we will certainly be called on to give that vindication in the case of individuals who, as yet, may not command the approbation of the vast majority of their fellow citizens. That is the occasion upon which the vindication of fundamental rights is called for. Be equally certain of this: if that vindication is not forthcoming from all sides of this House, from all of us who represent the people of Ireland, on behalf of somebody whose voice may for the moment be a minority, then it is only a matter of time until that fundamental right will be dead for all and we live under a condition so close to a tyranny, either of the right or of the left, that no one who is concerned for freedom will wish to live much longer.

I remember once saying to students of University College, Dublin: "You have been born free. You are so accustomed to freedom that you do not understand the catastrophe it would mean for you if you lost it. None of you now knows that every breath you draw depends on the oxygen of the air you breathe. Yet if the oxygen were withdrawn for ten seconds, you would be dead. The tragedy about freedom is that none of you appreciates its value because you were born within it. The danger that threatens you is that if you lost it, you might not be free to die and to live without freedom is infinitely worse than death."

Some people may imagine that I exaggerate the gravity of the transactions in the Mansion House. I do not. They raised the question: "Is it better to live bonded or to die free?" I certainly would opt to die free. I do not think we need make that choice in this country, if the Minister for Justice for the time being, whatever Party he belongs to, is prepared to say here, with I hope the endorsement of every Deputy of this House: "No mob will be allowed to function in this country, even though they drape themselves in the raiment of the Church by using priests as their alibi, and, seeking dictatorship, as the organiser of that mob seems concerned to establish, to assume a respectability to which they have no claim."

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
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