Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 9 Mar 1967

Vol. 227 No. 3

Committee on Finance. - Vote 40—Industry and Commerce.

Minister for Industry and Commerce (Mr. Colley)

I move:

That a supplementary sum not exceeding £1,288,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending 31st day of March, 1967, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Industry and Commerce including certain Services administered by that Office, and for payment of sundry Grantsin-Aid.

This Supplementary Estimate is necessary to meet excess expenditure on certain subheads in the Vote which could not be foreseen when the original Estimates were framed.

In the case of Subhead C—Advertising and publicity—a sum of £3,420 was provided in the original Estimate. Due largely to an unprecedented increase in the volume of Press advertising in connection with the issue of prospecting licences under the Minerals Development Act, it is now anticipated that expenditure in 1966-67 will amount to approximately £9,420.

The grant-in-aid provision for Córas Tráchtála for the current financial year is £550,000, out of which £50,000 was earmarked by the Board as a grant towards current and capital expenditure of Kilkenny Design Workshops Ltd. This company was set up by Córas Tráchtála to operate design workshops for the production of well designed prototypes for industry. Quite recently in the House on the occasion of the debate on the Export Promotion (Amendment) Bill, I paid tribute to the work of the Kilkenny Design Workshops and to the valuable contribution being made by them to Iris industry in relation to both home and export markets. There are now five fully active workshops in operation there for silver, pottery, wool weaving, textile printing and wood-turning; others will be established shortly. To meet the costs of the workshops and to provide for some very necessary reconstruction work, it has been agreed that the Board should increase the current year's grant to the workshops by £25,000. To enable the Board to do this without any slackening in the pace of its export promotional work, it is proposed in this Supplementary Estimate to provide £25,000 for the Board in addition to the grant-in-aid provision already made by the Oireachtas.

Increased industrial production and employment are vital to the country's economic wellbeing. This increase cannot be achieved without the expansion of existing industry and the establishment of new industry. Responsibility for the necessary promotional programme, particularly the attraction of industrialists from abroad, is assigned to the IDA.

Since the Estimate of £190,000 was presented, the international climate for industrial expansion has worsened. In a number of European countries growth rates have declined and this has affected the financial policies of some of these countries. The efforts of the IDA to maintain the flow of proposals for new industries in this country have in consequence been hampered and it has been forced to intensify its campaign in all areas where there seems to be some prospect of success. This intensification will lead to increased expenditure of about £20,000 in the current year.

The framing of estimates of annual expenditure by An Foras Tionscal presents unusual difficulties inasmuch as the amount of expenditure to be met in grant payments depends upon the rate at which projects for which grants have been approved proceed and the extent to which claims for payment are made by grantee firms. The timing of such claims, especially in cases where the industry is being newly established, depends upon a number of operations, for example, company formation, site acquisition and clearance, negotiations between various interests regarding management, directorships, production plans etc., provision of balance of capital, planning and erection of factory premises, purchase and delivery of machinery and plant etc. The time required for the completion of these operations in any particular case is determined by factors outside the control of An Foras Tionscal and, for these reasons, it is extremely difficult to forecast what payments from grants approved are likely to be made in a particular period. Estimates made at any time will also be affected by claims for payment of grants approved subsequently. The requirements of An Foras Tionscal for the current financial year have also been affected by the provisions of the Industrial Grants (Amendment) Act. 1966, passed on 26th May, 1966, which extended the adaptation grants scheme due to terminate on 31st March, 1966, to 31st December, 1967, and empowered An Foras Tionscal to proceed with the setting-up of industrial estates.

Out of the Vote of £4,000,000 for the year 1966-67, £3,902,771 has been expended by An Foras Tionscal up to 6th February, 1967 as follows:—

	£
Grants for new industrial development	1,628,449
Grants for adaptation and enlargement	2,063,278
Expenditure on industrial estates	211,044
	3,902771

Subject to the considerations already mentioned it is now estimated that the total requirements of An Foras Tionscal in the current financial year will amount to £5,500,000 made up of:—

	£
Grants for new industrial development	2,475,000
Grants for adaptation and enlargements	2,450,000
Expenditure on industrial estates	575,000
	5,500,000

The technical assistance scheme of grants is designed to encourage and assist firms to improve the efficiency of their organisations.

Under the scheme grants are available to manufacturing firms towards the cost of engaging consultants to advise on matters directed to the improvement of productive efficiency and to examine aspects of the distribution and sale of goods on the home market. Córas Tráchtála provides assistance in regard to export sales out of its grant-in-aid. Grants are also available to manufacturing firms towards the cost of sending certain managerial and supervisory personnel on training courses or on visits abroad by representatives of the firms to study aspects of industrial organisation. Up to 50 per cent of the cost to the firm of any particular project may be provided by way of grant.

The amounts of grants payable in respect of the engagement of consultants represent the bulk—of the order of 70 per cent—of the expenditure under this subhead. Technical assistance grants are also available to the distributive trades.

While I would like to see the technical assistance scheme being used on a much wider scale, it is encouraging to know that many progressive firms have availed of the scheme and have expressed satisfaction with the work carried out by the consultants engaged. These concerns generally have been encouraged, by the results derived from productivity schemes installed by consultants, to embark on additional schemes aimed at improving their productive efficiency still further and have sought extra grants for this purpose. The extensive use of the scheme in this way has resulted in an increase in the amount of technical assistance paid to individual firms and consequently, in an overall increase in expenditure under the subhead. In the nine months to the 31st December, 1966, the total amount paid in respect of technical assistance grants was £254,000, compared with £188,000 in the corresponding period of the previous year. It is estimated that by 31st March, 1967, claims to be met will total £370,000 for the year 1966-67.

I feel sure that the House will agree on the importance of continuing to offer the fullest encouragegrants, to our industries to equip themselves as fully as possible for the ment, by way of technical assistance advent of free trading conditions.

It has not been possible to dispose of all the outstanding accounts arising from Ireland's participation in the New York World Fair as certain payments could not be determined exactly until recently and some relatively minor claims are being disputed by my Department. In the current financial year expenditure on the subhead amounted to approximately £5,000. The items constituting this sum include outstanding expenditure on the display, miscellaneous charges for services rendered in New York in connection with the disposal of the exhibits after the Fair, together with certain balances of fees and expenses of the architect and the pavilion staff.

It is necessary to provide formally for financial assistance made available to Castlecomer Collieries Ltd. during the current financial year to enable them to continue certain development and exploratory work.

In December, 1965, the House agreed to a Supplementary Estimate which provided, inter alia, for a sum of £50,000 to meet the cost of re-opening the mine at Castlecomer and of carrying out development and exploratory work. The purpose of the re-opening was to investigate the possibilities of a particular area where there were indications of a large coal deposit. The mine re-opened in November, 1965, and normal development operations were resumed concurrently with the exploratory work. While, as I have said, the provision made in the Supplementary Estimate for expenditure on this work was £50,000, the amount actually advanced to the Company during the financial year ended 31st March, 1966, was only £23,000. The amount sought by way of the present Supplementary Estimate, £12,000, represents further advances made to the company for the same purpose during the current financial year.

The initial exploratory work which consisted of a drivage extending for about 1,000 ft. was completed some time ago and has indicated the presence of an extensive deposit of coal.

There are now the questions of gaining access to this new deposit and proving whether it is economically extractable. It is difficult to be precise where mining operations are concerned but it is hoped that a reasonable assessment of the future prospects of the mine can be made about the end of the year; at this stage we can only hope that our aim to revive the viability of the Castlecomer mine will be achieved.

The gross amount required is £1,638,000. There are, however, offsetting savings of £350,000 on other Subheads of the Vote which bring the net requirements to £1,288,000.

I recommend the Supplementary Estimate to the House.

Mr. Donegan

The main item in this Supplementary Estimate is the increase in the amount of money which will be made available to be spent during the year on grants for An Foras Tionscal. The figures given by the Minister indicate that there has been a large increase in the amount of money being paid towards adaptation grants whereas previously when the figures were made available to us, we found that the grants for new industries always involved much larger amounts of money than the grants for adaptation of old industries. We now find that the expenditure forecast for this year produces a 50-50 situation roughly. Old industries are availing of adaptation grants to the same extent as we are getting new industries in from abroad. I welcome that fact. From the time we first talked about entering the Common Market and got down to preparing for it seriously, I always felt it was not fully appreciated that many of our old industries were supply industries for the home market. They can now gird their loins and try to enter the export market. The fact that they are adapting themselves, as is indicated by the necessity for this Supplementary Estimate, is something which I welcome.

The report of the Federation of Irish Industries issued a few days ago made the point that there was not enough encouragement for the adaptation of old industries. There is some degree of truth in this point made by them because the maximum grant to a new industry can be up to 50 per cent, and they can then go to the Industrial Credit Company and talk about a loan and the conversion of portion of that grant, but the figure in relation to an adaptation grant is a maximum of 25 per cent.

I did some homework recently on the manner in which Northern Ireland encourages existing industries and new industries. The main difference I found between our system and theirs seems to be that they can get an automatic payment of grant on the production of invoices, statements and receipts for the goods they bought. I want to quote now from a leaflet entitled "Opportunities in Northern Ireland for faster, more profitable Expansion" It states:

Immediate cash grants of 40 per cent of the cost of new plant, machinery and buildings are offered by Northern Ireland automatically and they are not dependent on the number of new jobs an industry will create. But where a manufacturer undertakes to create reasonable employment, then the Government can make 45 per cent cash grants towards the cost of new plant, machinery and buildings, and, in the case of a project offering exceptionally attractive returns in employment or which is to be located in an area urgently requiring industrial development, grants towards operating costs can be made available in the initial stages of development.

The automatic payment of a grant there to any industrialist who purchases an article of industrial machinery is not available here. We have certain industries which got a global refusal. I can think of two of them offhand. One is the baking industry and the other is the laundry industry. Our definition is that they must produce something for export. My purpose in bringing this up is to indicate that a defence of the jobs in our existing industries which are supply industries for our own people is as pertinent today as we approach the Common Market as is the desire to produce new industries.

The anomalies presented by our system here, which I maintain is an inflexible one in relation to old industries, are demonstrable by these figures. I will not give the names of the companies involved for obvious reasons; if the Minister wants them, he can get them from me privately afterwards. There is one factory which employed a couple of hundred people, mostly girls, for 20 or 30 years in very bad premises. They eventually succeeded in getting new premises in a building which had been used as the office part of the factory. There was good space available for a new building. Eventually the whole production section of that factory was entirely new. Their adaptation grant was £16,000.

About a half a mile away there was a new factory producing almost identical products which got a grant of £138,000. The number of people employed in the old factory is slightly higher than the number employed in the new factory. Because the people in the old factory had been operating for 20 or 30 years in very bad conditions they were classified as being eligible for an adaptation grant only. I suggest that we should have a more flexible approach towards the old factories as well as the new ones. This would improve our system. I have a large volume of documentation here which proves that the position in Northern Ireland is much more flexible.

We have to compete with Northern Ireland as well as with other countries in the attraction of new industries. Another difference between Northern Ireland and here is that they tend to give help in the provision of factory space. They build factories which remain the property of the Minister. They are leased at a certain rate per square foot to the manufacturers, so the authorities always maintain their ownership of the factory. I do not want to harp on some of the costly failures we have had here, but I do want to suggest to the Minister that the fact that we have factory space which cannot be taken back by the Minister is a flaw in our system. We know that one of the reasons why a manufacturer would wish to own the factory is that if he owns it completely and entirely, he can use it as security for a loan for liquid capital for running his business. I suppose that is an argument why a manufacturer should own the factory. But, at the same time, the system in the North of Ireland is that they lease factory space to manufacturers, and they have been considerably more successful in the expansion of industry than we have been here.

I quote from the same booklet, which is just a resumé of all the things they have up there, and it is of interest on page 3:

There are no problems in finding a factory or building site in Northern Ireland! To encourage rapid industrial expansion and enable manufacturers to start production quickly, the Government builds in advance of demand, standard factories without a particular firm in mind. Ranging from 18,000 to 70,000 square feet, and with all modern services, these factories are ready for immediate occupation. Rentals are very low, from 1/6d. to 2/9d. per square foot per annum for a 21-year period which may include an option to purchase. Room for expansion of the production area by at least 100 per cent is always provided.

We have touched on this system in the Shannon Free Airport situation, where the Industrial Estate there has provided factory bays and leased them to factories, which has been a successful method of providing factory space. We are now moving a little closer to it again by the provision of industrial estates in specified places but, while we are, I think the restriction at present placed on this system is a mistake. There are certain instances in which I am sure the Minister, in his wisdom, would prefer to take a decision to provide factory space, rather than provide a large cash grant from which people build their own factories.

If, near a town of fairly large population, factory space can be created and there is at the back of somebody's mind the possibility that in ten or 15 years the first occupant might not be as successful for ever, as we would hope, then the fact that the space is there is really the best guarantee or encouragement we can get that it will be occupied again. In my own constituency I have seen certain factories left idle. Happily, they were reoccupied, not—in one case I shall not mention, by people who are employing male labour, as the first people were—employing labour in the same volume but, nevertheless, the fact that there was factory space there, near a centre of population where employees were readily available, meant that these were occupied again. In another town in my constituency a much smaller factory has had this experience, a factory which got a grant. The factory space was built and then production ceased but now, happily, another manufacturer has come in. He is starting and we hope in perhaps a year he will be in full production there as a small factory employing, possibly, 50 people; at the moment there are 15 to 20 employed. But the fact that we can provide factory space is most important.

The Minister, on 2nd March, 1967, replied to a Parliamentary Question of mine as to whether or not he had received representations for the establishment of an industrial estate at Tom Roe's Point, Drogheda, and the answer was no. He indicated that Government policy was to develop certain centres. I think large industrial towns all over Ireland—if they can provide a suitable site—should be in a position to have factory bays built there, if there are people to occupy them. Even if the planning were allowed to proceed, it might be a very good thing. The question raised by the Federation of Irish Industries as to whether or not there is sufficient encouragement for adaptation is one which, six to 12 months ago, could be entirely substantiated because it appeared, as I said, as if there was far more activity in the provision of new factories than the adaptation of old ones. But, as I said also, it appears now as if the amounts of money are about equal.

Also in the Report on Progress of Industrial Adaptation of March, 1966 issued by the Department of Industry and Commerce applications for adaptation grants and loans are added, again, up to 31st December, 1965. I refer to page 30 of the document. I indicated that the total capital investment represented by applications for grants and loans would be of the order of £55 million which is the figure given in this document and approved up to the same date there was a figure of £42 million. It means, of course, that the Industrial Credit Company are co-operating, when the adaptation grant is provided. Whether or not that can go the whole way, I do not know, but it is quite certain, with commercial banking in its present state of restriction, there is very little hope anywhere else and the industrialist who would desire to adapt is certainly in the position that he will not get the 75 per cent he desires from a commercial bank to put beside the grant of 25 per cent.

Another matter which gives Northern Ireland the edge on us is the fact that all industrial buildings there are derated as to 75 per cent. This is a considerable attraction and I have been quoted an instance of a very large factory in Belfast where the total rates paid are £500 a year. I am quite certain the volume of rates paid by relatively small industrial operations here would be as much as £2,000 a year. I am aware that if one is in full production, the rate figure will be a very small part of the prime cost but, at the same time, when one is trying to encourage people to come in, everything counts and it is clear that this is another advantage Northern Ireland has over us.

The Minister answered a Parliamentary Question by me, also on 2nd March, 1967—Question No. 46—when I asked for the total amount of grants sanctioned for industry by An Foras Tionscal to date, and the total sum represented by cancellations of projects since a reply in June, 1966, relating to industrial grants. The Minister's reply was that the total sum represented by cancellations of applications for grants, abandonments, or postponements of projects since 31st March, 1966 was £1,532,000. These are the official cancellations and abandonments. My opinion—in the credit squeeze situation as it is—would be that, internationally as well as at home, the real figure for postponements, abandonments or cancellations would be much higher. I say this in no spirit of blame to the Minister, An Foras Tionscal, or anybody else, but the facts of life are there and it is clear that people who were bent on expansion here in the past few years—and these projects generally take a year or so to get under way—will have found themselves in the position where they have had to retrench, and where cancellation at the worst and postponement at the best may be the order of the day for many.

I think it was the Minister for Industry and Commerce who answered a question by Deputy L'Estrange recently and the information given was that there were 170,000 fewer people at work in this country than in 1951. This means that the industrial effort to employ the same number of people, or even more in order to compensate for those who have had to leave the land because of mechanisation, has failed. We face that situation with our grants and our encouragement system.

There are features of the industrial expansion programme which are not to be commended. I have observed that a very high percentage of new factories in and around my area employ perhaps as high a proportion as 50 per cent girl labour. I was at a chamber of commerce dinner some years ago. I do not remember the exact year but the present Taoiseach, who was then Minister for Industry and Commerce, spoke there. Sitting beside me was the managing director of a firm who employ about 400 people in that town and when the president of the chamber of commerce mentioned employment in a certain new factory and the fact that the new factory would give employment to girls, the managing director nearly swallowed his coffee cup because the main employment in his factory was girl labour and he was in a situation in which he could not get any girls. Therefore, the large grant given to that factory was, from the point of view of employment promotion, wasted. To give the name of the factory and town concerned would be, for a politician, to commit hari kiri and I have no intention of doing it. If there was a scarcity of girl labour in that town, the payment of a large grant for a new factory to help it to do something which had been done already was largely a waste of money.

I shall give another instance. A firm went into a premises which had been vacated and they were confronted with the problem that they could not get enough girl labour. I submit that we must concentrate in such cases on the establishment of factories that employ men at a good living wage. I can point to two examples in Drogheda—it is permissible for a politician to mention the name of the town when it has been a success—the asbestos pipe factory and two others, where a large percentage of men are employed at fair wages, enabling people to rear families and to keep them at home. The other system does neither.

Another feature about which I am not happy is the proportion of factories established which are using Irish raw materials. It is, of course, a good thing to take in materials from abroad, employ people here to convert them into manufactures and then to send the finished products out again. However, experience in this city, particularly in recent months, has shown us that this is dangerous because if a big combine abroad find that the shoe is pinching, it is very easy for them to lop off the small arm in a small country like this, repatriate their executives and find jobs for them elsewhere, and no one in the organisation of such a large international combine will be hurt to any great extent. It leaves us with an empty factory in which there is no employment. That is why I asked the Minister on 23rd February, 1967—Question No. 70—for the number of new factories established in 1965 and 1966 based on raw materials available in the country at a competitive price, and the present number of people employed. The reply was:

It is not possible to give the precise information requested by the Deputy. He may, however, be interested to know that out of a total of 47 new industries established in 1965, 15 use mainly Irish raw materials and 4 use some Irish raw materials; these 19 undertakings employ approximately 1,100 persons. Out of 54 new industries established in 1966, 19 use mainly Irish raw materials and 4 use some Irish raw materials; these 23 undertakings employ approximately 500 persons.

The financial year does not end until 31st March, 1967, and we are now discussing a Supplementary Estimate for a large sum to bring total expenditure and grants up to £5½ million; yet the number of persons employed in these two calendar years in industries established on Irish raw materials is far too low. We must concentrate on encouraging industries to come here for the reason that the raw materials are available here. It is a safety measure against the time when the wind blows cold, when there are credit squeezes internationally, when employment in industrial production in the world is falling and when industrial products are not going so well.

I welcome the action in regard to Castlecomer Collieries. It would be a pity if we were to let the labour there in the production of Irish goods in the shape of coal to emigrate without a fight. Perhaps because of our tie-up with and our thinking on Bord na Móna, we have been concentrating so much on the production of turf that the question of our collieries, as far as State capital investment is concerned, has been neglected. For use in industrial boilers and for the central heating of houses, there is a very big market for the type of anthracite we produce. In small undertakings in which I am involved, I installed two industrial and one domestic boiler consuming all Irish anthracite and I can assure the House and the Minister that the cost of heating from this fuel has been less than half that of oil. The work involved is merely refuelling once a day, which takes about two minutes, and looking at the boiler after 12 hours in case a clinker may have formed, which takes half a minute because of automatic riddling.

This is something which should have been developed but we have been so involved in turf production that we may have neglected our Irish anthracite. If the costs are examined, they will show that Irish industry here would be well advised, before installing any boiler, to consider Irish anthracite fuel. For that reason I welcome wholeheartedly the investigation work going on at Castlecomer and wish it every success. The total sum at the moment would seem to be £62,000. This seems very little, by the standards we employ here and by the expenditures we are involved in here today, to keep an oldestablished Irish industry going and to try to bring it right up to its optimum in employment and in production.

Córas Tráchtála have got a small increase. I want, specially, to pay a tribute to the work of Córas Tráchtála. The people there are extremely good and diligent. There is another thing about them. They are as far removed from civil servants—I say this not in condemnation of anybody present— as it would be possible for anybody to be. They are the sort of people who will make absolutely any kind of effort, orthodox or unorthodox, to get Irish exports. Some of them have reached the stage where the volume of knowledge and experience that can literally be given to you verbatim on the telephone is extraordinary. They have a wonderful knowledge of every facet of Irish industry and the details of production of different items. I would suggest to the Minister if money were ever to be the limiting factor in regard to Córas Tráchtála, the best thing he could do as Minister would be to see that such limitation were removed. I do not think any Government has, in fact, restricted Córas Tráchtála in this way and for that reason I welcome this item in the Supplementary Estimate.

The technical assistance grants are important and it is good to see them being availed of. The fact that the Minister says his Department is arguing about certain small items in relation to this matter does not shock me. I presume we have got some benefits from our capital investment and our efforts there. I do not want to delay the House very long as this is a Supplementary Estimate and I presume we will be dealing with the main Estimate after Easter. Therefore, I end by saying that I believe the Federation of Irish Industries, while there is some evidence of improvement in the amount of the adaptation grants being availed of, have a case when they say our system is inflexible and that sufficient is not being done for old industries.

They also have a case when they point to the fact that the State took £40 million from the capital resources for private enterprise industry this year and that while there is a suggestion that there is some loosening within the last month or so in the shape of an announcement that £10 million more would be available for the private sector, such has not been the experience of people in industry. Capital is extremely scarce still. The Federation of Irish Industries in their report a few days ago made the point that while the balance of payments difficulties was corrected to a large degree, the price was high and the price was the compulsory slowing down of our industrial effort here over a year. The fact that the private enterprise industrialist found himself hampered by lack of liquid capital or lack of investment capital for the purpose of developing his plant or his building and the fact that we are restricted in our adaptation grants approach did not help.

I should now like to mention something that has been argued by me and others, to some extent, that is, our costly failures. When you mention costly failures of industries that got grants, you are very often told you are unpatriotic and that the percentage of failures is very low. I submit that the percentage was not low in regard to those costly failures. I would insist on the Minister having a full examination of the situation and taking any precautions that are necessary to see to it that those failures do not occur again in such numbers. I know we have to take risks and also, just as the banks will do, the Government should see to it that salvage is available to them and that at least the building will come back to them.

During the past week or so, I was reading the Acts of Parliament in Northern Ireland relative to industrial grants and incentives. I found there were the most stringent sections in those Acts whereby seven days after production ceased in any of those enterprises which had got grants, such had to be reported to the Ministry. In fact, the machinery could not be removed from the factories and the buildings themselves reverted to the Minister if production stopped for a period of six months. I am not suggesting that stringent measures such as those would encourage industrialists to come here but I feel if an industrialist is entirely bona fide in his effort to come here, he will have no objection to normal safeguarding precautions by our Minister. I feel such should be incorporated in new grants. I feel also that the system is, to some degree, inflexible and has not been changed in hardly any way since the Government I supported then, with the Fine Gael and Labour Parties, introduced the Industrial Grants Act. It was in fact introduced by the late Deputy Norton in 1956. The Miscellaneous Provisions Act was also introduced in that year. As this is a Supplementary Estimate, I know that this can only be discussed in passing so I will not go into it further now.

The incentive by way of relief of tax will be continued until we go into the Common Market. It would help industrialists and the House if the Minister would indicate, as he has just come back from Brussels, if there is any truth in the widespread rumours that when we go into the Common Market, we will not be allowed to give incentives to industry by way of relief of tax. I believe that market development grants should be expanded and that there should be a more detailed approach to them. The work of Córas Tráchtála is very good but perhaps the whole idea needs to be expanded.

I welcome the Supplementary Estimate for what it is doing. I have given whatever views I had in relation to certain changes which I feel might be of value. I hope that the Minister will see to it that more Irishmen are employed at home.

Mr. S. Dunne

This is one of the sneak punch Estimates which are thought up at a late hour at night and thrown at the Dáil the following morning. There was no indication that this was for discussion this morning. However, let us proceed to examine the Estimate and to give our views on what little it contains. The actual number of items referred to in the Supplementary Estimate is not large. The amount is considerable. It is £1,288,000 and it is proper that we should have a look at what is to be done with this money and indeed to think in terms of what is happening in regard to industry generally in this country, and particularly so far as we are concerned on these benches, what is happening to the people who work in industry, the various groups of skilled and unskilled operatives in Irish industry.

The first fact that hits me in the face is that there are 6,000 more unemployed in the country than there were 12 months ago. Of course this must be the acid test in so far as the policies of Government are concerned. One may travel in various directions of fantasy and indulge in fantasy in so far as imaginable benefits of industry are concerned. One may enlarge, at great length, upon status and prestige, but the basic test of the value of any Government activity in this field is how many jobs have been provided or how many have been lost. Here we find what I would describe as a calamitous decline in the number of people involved. Perhaps they are not all disemployed in industry as such; perhaps they are not all factory workers now out of a job; but I would say that the greater number of them, by far the greater number are. When one thinks in terms of those who emigrate as well, without even getting the opportunity of taking up employment, it shows that it is not unreasonable nor would I think it an exaggeration, to suggest that there are 10,000 people more, either working in England or out of jobs here, than there were this time last year. I think that is a moderate estimate.

One must look at the operation of the Department and Government policy against that background because much was promised by this Government in so far as the provision of jobs was concerned. I am not one who is given to repetition—I hope anyway. I hope I will never fall into the trap of being repetitious in so far as political discussion is concerned. I do not want to recall too painful memories of promises made in days gone by. I know there are some Members of this House to whom it is dearer far than the choicest of wines that they should travel back the years and the farther back they go, the sweeter the vintage.

Mr. Donegan

That is nice.

Mr. S. Dunne

Not all of us, however, have such finely developed palates. I shall not pursue that any further so that it will not get too involved. Let me return to the matter to hand. However, I do recall very well walking down Bridgefoot Street with a friend of mine, now unfortunately deceased, of the name of Mr. Behan. Across the road on a very large hoarding there were two posters, one of which read——

Mr. Donegan

Wives, put your husbands out to work!

Mr. S. Dunne

I remember it exactly because it left an indelible impression: "Housewives, get your husbands out to work!" on one poster and cheek-by-jowl with that "Let us get cracking".

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Dunne will appreciate that this is a Supplementary Estimate and that it does not open a general debate on Government policy. The debate is confined to the various subheads.

Mr. S. Dunne

I know very well and I do not propose to undertake any such endeavour. I merely mention this as an interesting incident which has recalled to me old friendships. It was the juxtaposition of the posters which took the fancy of my friend.

When one speaks of Industry and Commerce, one cannot separate one's mind from promises which were made of the provision of jobs and particularly in the projections—if you do not mind, the projections—which is the "in" word for what are thought to be inspired guesses in that tale of mystery and imagination called the Second Programme for Economic Expansion. Would I be in order, Sir, if I mentioned Potez?

Mr. Donegan

I would say you would.

Mr. S. Dunne

In the mouths and minds of many people Potez does not, to say the least of it, ring musical. I shall not say it is a dirty word, but it is not too euphonious at the same time in our ears. I am prepared to say, and any reasonable man would be prepared to say, that it is possible for anyone to make a mistake. Anybody can fall for a well told tale at the international conference level as well as at any other level. I do not know if this applies in so far as Potez is concerned, but what I am concerned about is this: We have this large building there and all sorts of rumours circulate in public as to what is to be done and what is not to be done. The representatives of Potez apparently make odd visits here and disappear again into the night. The factory building remains and let me say it is a very fine building out there on the Naas Road.

Are we going to make a national monument of it or what? Are we going to leave it there with a maintenance party in it or what is going to happen to it? People are very interested to know will Potez make anything there. It is some years now since the arrival of this great industry, heralded by the Government as another great Fianna Fáil achievement. We were all very happy to think—I certainly was as a Deputy for the area—that a large number of people would be provided with work there, but it has not materialised and, except for the limited number who are in employment there, Potez really is held up as a failure rather than anything else.

We read in the newspapers recently of a proposal to make a radio station of it. I do not know what is in this. Telefís Éireann could do with a bit of competition in many spheres and in many of its activities, although I dare say it is hardly reasonable to suppose that there is sufficient advertising revenue available in this country to support two television stations. Nevertheless, this impression is abroad. People have read in the newspapers that there is a group interested in converting the Potez factory into a television station.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Minister for Industry and Commerce is not responsible for television.

Mr. S. Dunne

Please let me inquire about what is happening in my constituency.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

There is no relevancy in television on this debate.

Mr. S. Dunne

I am not talking about television. I am not talking about an empty shell of a factory in my constituency where jobs were promised for the people.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The prospect of converting it into a television station is not relevant. The Deputy might keep to the Supplementary Estimate.

Mr. S. Dunne

We are getting to the stage now that we can hardly open our mouths in this House. I am not trying to be disorderly or straying from the rules of order. I am trying to do my job as a Deputy.

Mr. Colley

The Deputy first strayed when he talked about the necessity for competition for Telefís Éireann. This may be what led him off on another track.

Mr. S. Dunne

I am not on another track.

Mr. Donegan

Deputy Dunne was in this House before the Minister for Industry and Commerce came within an ass's roar of it.

Mr. Colley

That is not relevant.

Mr. Donegan

Deputy Dunne has ten times more experience of the rules of order of this Chamber than you have.

Mr. Colley

What has that got to do with it?

Mr. Donegan

We can do without your advice.

Mr. S. Dunne

Let us treat this with maturity. People must creep before they walk. Let us leave the matter alone from that point of view. I am not concerned with discussing the affairs of Telefís Éireann at all. I want to ask a simple question. It is getting more and more difficult, not alone to get answers but to put questions and still be regarded as being in order.

I should like to find out from the Minister what he considers to be the future of this building. Is there anything in what is being said about a group being interested in turning the Potez factory into a television station? Everybody is anxious to see that the building is used to its maximum capacity, whatever that may be. Is there any prospect that Messrs. Potez will return to the country and do something to provide the promised employment? We do not know. The factory is there. Are we going to make a national monument of it? Or will the Minister hand it over to his colleague and instal the Board of Works there to keep it in order? I hope I am in order in inquiring about that.

I had great hopes, too, of a blossoming of industry in the country following the arrival of the new men, particularly following the arrival of the present Taoiseach. There does not seem to me to be any difference. The trend is downwards so far as employment is concerned. It would appear that no matter who is at the helm of the Fianna Fáil Party, we are not making any progress towards the promised goal of prosperity for all which was the panacea offered by this Government on the occasion of each successive election.

Some people—I am sure many members of the Fianna Fáil Party earlier this year and indeed many Deputies—took heart from the forecast made by the celebrated international man of information, Mr. Maurice Woodrow, who forecast that we would have an excellent Taoiseach, although he would come in for criticism, he said, and a rough passage. But, he said, it would not be fair criticism and the reason it would not be fair criticism is that it would not be fairly based. I should add that Mr. Woodrow is a clairvoyant by profession. He states he does not use crystal balls or packs of cards. He has this as a gift from his mammy. It was published on the front page of the Evening Press in heavy type in support, no doubt, of their excursions into the fantasy of the so-called Programme for Economic Expansion. We were assured by this projection—because that is what it was—because it appears as valid now as the projection in the document to which I have referred.

Mr. Woodrow's projection was qualified by Mr. Woodrow's affirmation in the end that he was not completely infallible. This was one of the things utilised by the Evening Press, which we know is Holy Writ to the faithful, in support of the activities of the Government, in support of the general impression that here you have a Government full of youth and vim and energy, the youngest Cabinet in Europe, and the devil knows what.

The net result of this administration is, as I have said, a reduction of 6,000 jobs in the past 12 months. In this Estimate fewer than ten pages, in treble spacing, are taken to describe the expenditure of £1,288,000. Among the subjects mentioned is Córas Tráchtála. We all hope that the Kilkenny Workshops will have every success. It reflects credit on this enterprise that their designs have gained fame—perhaps I should not quite say fame, but certainly considerable note.

I do not know who is responsible for the design of the carpet on the floor of this House. I do not know that it is the Kilkenny Workshops. Whoever is responsible for it, the design does not indicate too rich an imagination. In fact, it seems to most people that the change in the carpet design is not very important—I am not suggesting that in any utilitarian sense the design in a carpet is important. It is desirable, however, that we should strive for achievement of the highest level in all matters of human activity. We will fail 99 times out of 100 but we should strive all the same.

It seems to me that the design of the old Donegal carpet, with which we were all familiar, which was taken up, was infinitely superior to this modernistic one. I would describe the design of the carpet which replaced the old one as a kind of lounge bar design. I merely mention that because if you forgive the expression, it is against my aesthetic sense.

Mr. Colley

As far as I know, that carpet had nothing whatever to do with the Kilkenny Workshops.

Mr. S. Dunne

It is mentioned here.

Mr. Colley

They have nothing to do with it as far as I know but I am not to be taken as agreeing with the Deputy's criticism. I merely want to keep the record straight.

Mr. S. Dunne

It is a matter of principle that you should disagree with everything I say. That is held as dearly, I am sure, by Fianna Fáil as everything else. "Anything you can say I can say better": I am familiar with the old Annie Oakley theme.

Mr. Colley

I am concerned with the facts.

Mr. S. Dunne

The facts—ah, well. I am out of order here again. I retreat once more into the protective arms of the rules of order.

Mr. Colley

The Deputy will note that I did not say anything about it until he had finished.

Mr. S. Dunne

Very kind; thank you very much indeed. On the other hand, perhaps it might have been helpful to me if the Minister had interrupted. Somebody is responsible for the carpets and we shall have to deal with them.

Mr. Pattison

It is not Kilkenny.

Mr. S. Dunne

I know that the Marble City had nothing to do with it and I am very glad.

Mr. P. O'Donnell

We are delighted to hear your praise of the Donegal carpet.

Mr. S. Dunne

And why should I not praise the beautiful products that come from that highly-civilised and most wonderful county?

Mr. P. O'Donnell

Hear, hear.

Mr. S. Dunne

The IDA is referred to in the Supplementary Estimate. I hope I shall be in order in referring to that. On occasion, when the opportunity presented itself of discussing matters relating to this Department, I have spoken and perhaps some will think repeated ad nauseam—and in the minds of the Government Party, perhaps to the point of boredom—of my idea that we do not appear to have awakened to the conditions into which we are inevitably and inexorably moving in Europe, that is, the highly competitive conditions we shall face in selling goods.

I again make the appeal to the Minister not to be content with the forms of organisation which now exist in this State in so far as the exploration of European markets is concerned or in so far as the recruitment of suitable commercial explorers—young, active men, trained to whatever level is necessary—is concerned. I choose the term "commercial explorers" of some agency under his control which could send them into Europe for the first purpose of fixing where the markets are which we may be able to service, of finding out if they are there at all, of fixing, as it were, our targets.

What does Europe need that we can provide? All we hear about is that the farmers will do well because we have plenty of cattle. We can export agricultural produce. However, I recently read in a book, which purported to describe the origins and development of the Common Market, a statement to the effect that small agricultural countries such as ours have no guarantee at all that prosperity will come to them because they are able to export agricultural produce to a vast and an allegedly hungry mass of population.

The arrangement of these matters, even within the Common Market, has not reached such a high stage of planned organisation that the agricultural interests of even every member country are looked after properly. Therefore we need not place too much reliance on these vague generalisations that the farmers will do well and that anybody who produces cattle will come well out of it. In a minor way, from recent sad experience of the Free Trade Area Agreement, we know that we were assured by the then Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries that this agreement would be of benefit to the farmers in the matter of cattle prices but nevertheless cattle prices fell. Therefore, we simply cannot assume that, if and when we go into the Common Market—which will be determined by Mr. Harold Wilson's success in his negotiations with General de Gaulle—our economy will boom. Let us face it. These are the facts. The rest is just a lot of window dressing. Whatever these two gentlemen decide, we have no alternative but to follow. Simply because we are an agricultural country and can produce cattle, it should not be assumed that that will bring immediate prosperity either to the farmers or to our country. I have never been persuaded that the cattle industry, apart from rectifying theoretical adverse trade balances, was of that tremendous value in terms of jobs provided, which is the acid test, to this nation.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Minister, of course, has no responsibility for a debate on agriculture.

Mr. S. Dunne

I know that. I merely mention it in passing. I am trying to emphasise that we have got to attack very vigorously on this front, with which he is concerned, which is that of industry and commerce. One of the means I am suggesting and have suggested of developing in the future is that we should make an intensive effort to find out what is needed in Europe in this great market in whose direction we seem to be moving that we can supply or prepare to supply. To my mind, the way to do that is to get trained, qualified people, young people, preferably, with plenty of patriotism and push, to go out and to discover what needs we can fill. That is a first essential. If we do not do that, anything else we do is quite haphazard. I do not think the range is too great but, with the application of Irish ingenuity and genius, I am certain we shall survive. I am certain that the number of people who will be left on this island will survive but I should not care to make any projection as to how many will be left inhabiting this— to use the phrase—grand old country.

The Minister must be aware of the need which I mentioned, not just now but on many previous occasions, to be alive to what is required. I merely want to comment in regard to what he has to say about outstanding accounts in respect of our participation in the New York World Fair of 1964-65, that it surprises me that it has not been possible to dispose of the outstanding accounts, as he says. I had not thought that the money shortage, which had done such damage in so many different ways to our economy, particularly in regard to housing, extended to the point where it made it impossible for us to meet bills incurred in respect of the New York World Fair. This, of course, is the explanation as to why we did not participate in Expo 1966: we had not the money to do it, apparently.

I have been talking to workers in industries. There are one or two cases I suggest the Minister should have a look at. I do not propose to give the names here but I will do so when it is necessary. It might be advisable to keep an eye upon one or two manufacturers who availed of grants and, possibly, loans to set up industries, allegedly for the purpose of exports, if not exclusively, certainly principally. The Minister should have a look at the so-called export industries to see whether in one or two and perhaps more cases, I have in mind, they do not, in fact, neglect the export side, which it was an obligation on them to develop when the loans and grants were first being provided, and lean almost 100 per cent on the home market. I should like to hear the Minister say if he knows of any evasion of this kind. Are there in existence any regulations against evasive tactics of this nature?

I may not be making myself too clear but the point I am trying to make is that an industry which is provided with public moneys and enabled or helped to be established, partially, by public moneys on the general proposition that it will engage principally in exports has an obligation to make every effort to export and to strain every sinew in that direction. It has been suggested to me by certain workers that there are industries which came into existence on the basis of that proposition but whose efforts or activities in regard to exports are minimal, if at all. I would ask the Minister to say if he has any information of this kind. If the position is as I have suggested, that is a matter which needs to be corrected.

We in the Labour Party are very anxious to see that the Department of Industry and Commerce will be successful in the promotion of the interests of Irish industry, and always have been. It is an interesting point, referred to by Deputy Donegan, that the Industrial Development Authority, which is one of the main organs of the Department, was brought into being by a former leader of the Labour Party, the late Deputy Norton, and had as one of its chief directors, the late Senator Luke Duffy, who will be remembered by many for the considerable work he did in building up the Industrial Development Authority from its inception.

I do not want to be going back but I remember what was said when we indicated that we were considering the setting-up of an Industrial Development Authority. These were days when the Minister was not taking much interest in politics. The Industrial Development Authority has become part of the apparatus of the Minister's Department. We are very anxious to see that his Department should function to the fullest possible extent for the benefit of those with whom we are primarily concerned, that is, the people who want to stay in Ireland and work in Ireland. That is not to say that we do not appreciate the very grave difficulties which face industrialists on such an occasion. That is not to say that we opt out of our responsibility as a national Party, to offer to Irish industrialists who are making the effort every assistance we can within reason and such as lies within our power and, certainly, our good wishes for their success.

I sincerely hope that the efforts of the Minister will be directed towards a radical alteration of the present industrial picture as we see it to the end that, instead of there being a reduction in jobs, as there has undoubtedly been over the past 12 months, there will be an increase in employment. I know very well that we could engage here in a statisticsswopping game that could go on all day or for a month or a year, as a result of which nobody would be any the wiser in the heel of the hunt and both sides should be convinced of the absolute authority with which they speak. All I have to go on are the figures issued by the Minister's Department, or the Department of Labour, which we get every Friday in the post. They indicate greater unemployment than there was last year. It is a serious matter and one to which I hope the Minister will address his mind and tell us whether we can expect an improvement and how soon.

Mr. Pattison

I welcome this Supplementary Estimate because it provides money for a few very important undertakings. The first item comes under the heading of advertising and I want to talk about the subject matter of the advertisements, which is most significant. We in this Party have always stressed the importance of the full development of our natural resources. It is very gratifying to see that there is an increasing amount of activity in this field. I am glad to see that the amount of money under this heading is increasing because it indicates that the Government are doing a good deal more than has been done in the past to ensure that every effort is made to develop and explore our mineral resources.

In this connection I want to refer to the amount included for Castlecomer Collieries. This again is a most important item. Castlecomer Collieries were closed in 1965, permanently, as it was thought at the time, but after the efforts of the local people, local representatives and the unions representing the workers, the Government agreed to advance money in order to explore further the possibility of getting coal more economically there. Everyone in the area is grateful to the Government for taking that step. The £12,000 now being provided is most welcome. They have reached the point in Castlecomer when money should be made available to them, possibly more money than is itemised here, because it is generally felt that the decision to re-open the mine was wise. In order to prove that conclusively, it is necessary to spend more money, and in order to keep up the exploratory work and the work of proving that the coal can be economically mined.

I doubt if there is any need for me to impress on the Minister the importance of this. When the Minister for Health, Deputy Flanagan, was Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Industry and Commerce, he visited the area and made a detailed tour of the surrounding district and he came to know first hand the serious social difficulties as well as the economic difficulties that would arise if the mine was not kept going. If the Minister gets the opportunity, he too should visit the area and there he will see the full worth of the money which the Department is spending in the area. To keep the trained labour force there is most important. Unfortunately all of the trained labour force originally employed in the mine did not find employment when the mine reopened but every effort should be made to keep the present labour force in employment there.

Deputy Donegan referred to the necessity for increasing tax remission as an incentive to industrialists. I would ask the Minister to have a word with the Minister for Finance to see if he could get some special income tax relief for coal miners. It is a very difficult and a very laborious kind of employment and it is no encouragement to giving increased productivity if one finds that one's pay packet is seriously reduced by income tax, especially when one is working hundreds of feet down in the earth, perhaps on the flat of one's stomach for most of the day, hammering out coal. Every special provision should be made for these workers.

I should also like to refer to the almost complete lack of advertising in regard to the sale of coal. The main competitors in this field avail themselves of television, the newspapers and all the media of communication to get across the desirability of using their particular type of fuel but no significant effort is being made to put across to the people the economy and the usefulness of this coal, or the fact that it is a native product and has the added advantage of keeping our balance of payments problem that little bit less embarrassing. Most other types of fuel are imported. Also, more could be done in regard to the marketing and advertising of our coal. I give my full support to the Minister on this aspect of the Supplementary Estimate and I want to pay tribute to his efforts and the efforts of the Department in regard to the work they are doing in Castlecomer and I hope that this assistance will continue. Much more money is necessary to permit this colliery to work more economically and to give employment to people in the area.

Looking through the remainder of the Supplementary Estimate, I hoped to find some reference to the Minister's recent announcement regarding the development of small industries in the rural areas. Perhaps some of the additional money being given to the Industrial Development Authority will be earmarked for that purpose and when the Minister is replying he will clarify the position. He should follow up his recent announcement with positive action.

In that connection I would like to refer to the work of local industrial development committees. These are voluntary committees composed of local people who do very valuable work. They are dedicated people who give their time and money in the attempt to develop industry in rural areas. They come on deputations to the Minister and the Industrial Development Authority and are received very well. No objection can be taken to the manner in which they are received by the Minister, the officials of the Department and the Authority. They are received courteously and are given all the advice and assistance that can be given.

However, it is very frustrating for them to go back and tell the people who sent them that they have been well received, that those who met them have promised to do what is possible but that still they have not got anything definite. I know that neither the Minister nor the Authority can direct an industry to go to any particular area but when local people make such a determined effort, they should get extra consideration from the Minister and the Authority.

I want to refer in particular to the work of the County Kilkenny Industrial Development Committee which had a pilot study made of the Kilkenny region at great expense. That effort put the individual members of the committee into debt but they were prepared to do it in order to get all the available information about the region into book form. I hope their efforts will be more fully recognised by the Department in time to come and that other areas will be encouraged to do likewise.

The main point I want to make is that there are many private individuals who are spending a lot of their free time and their money in an effort to bring industries into their areas, industries which would be of no direct benefit to themselves. These people have the good of their country and their particular areas at heart and it is time some recognition was given to them.

There is one big hindrance to the development of industry, not alone in the rural areas but also in Dublin and the urban areas, that is, the price of land where new industries are concerned. The Minister has concerned himself with the price of land for housing and I would ask him to have a look also at the problem of land prices for industrial development. This is becoming a major obstacle to the development of industry. When it is rumoured that somebody is interested in setting up an industry, people who own land in the neighbourhood immediately jack up the price. Unless something is done pretty soon about this matter, many foreign industrialists intending to come here will be discouraged. It is most discouraging to find local people demanding a price above the normal market price for land for the development of industry. I would ask the Minister to give this matter the same attention as he has given to the price of land for housing.

I also wish to refer to Kilkenny Design Workshops. I have said before, and I find it necessary to repeat it here today, that there are some Irish industrialists and managers who are not fully conscious of the value of the work being done by Kilkenny Design Workshops. Steps should be taken to bring these people to realise that there is this very valuable amenity on their doorsteps here in Ireland. Not alone have the Kilkenny Workshops been responsible for new designs but they have also been responsible for the production of items such as some types of candlesticks which were thought for many years to be unsaleable. Kilkenny Design Workshops tackled this, and developed good designs with the result that a market has developed for these items over the past number of years. In Kilkenny, they are now at the point where they are finding it rather difficult to get trained personnel and with the expansion that is taking place there, more skilled personnel will be required.

I should like to ask the Minister in that connection to have a word with the Minister for Education to see if some branches of higher technical education, and possibly some other courses, could be established in order to train the local people to take on this work. With the expansion of the workshops, it is getting more and more difficult and they will run into difficulties because of a lack of trained personnel. There is a difficulty in attracting personnel from foreign countries. Efforts are being made by the vocational committee in Kilkenny to provide some of the courses required, but further assistance will be needed from the Minister and also from the Minister for Education in order to expedite the provision of these amenities.

It is also important that money is available for capital development in these workshops because space is all important in the development of design. A correct environment is equally important. The setting of the workshops in the Ormonde Castle has given an environment which lends itself to good design. It remains now for the expansion of the workshops and the provision of the extra workshops to take full advantage of the work which is being done there. The results of that work have shown that they are good, and locally they are beginning to bring results because in the silversmith end of the business there are definite proposals for the establishment of a small workshop for the provision of the items that have been designed in the workshops. With the provision of silver items designed in the workshops and their marketing, it has been established that there is a profitable and valuable market for these products.

As I said before, this is a double achievement. They have made the designs and they have also discovered markets and outlets for those designs, and for items which were believed to be unsaleable many years ago. I hope the Minister will continue to give the necessary money to the Kilkenny Design Workshops in order to help them to continue with this good work and to expand it. I also hope he will take steps to bring to the notice of the remaining few people in the industry who are not fully aware of it the valuable assistance which these design workshops can be to them.

Reference was made to the granting of assistance to managers and industrialists to go to foreign countries to examine production methods. I seriously suggest that the Minister should encourage these industrialists and managers—and even pay their fares—to go to Kilkenny to see these workshops first. They can then go to foreign parts and see if they have got anything better, and see if they can improve themselves in other directions.

In conclusion I want to say on behalf of the Labour Party that we welcome this Supplementary Estimate and the provision of extra money for Industry and Commerce. We hope it will give the good results it is intended to give.

Mr. Moore

Some time ago the Minister said that we had never been faced with the problem of full employment and that he would not mind facing up to this problem. I think that is the sentiment of everyone in this House. Full employment has its problems but we would be willing to swap them for the problem of unemployment, and on this Department must fall the greatest part of the task of trying to create jobs for our people. While I have every confidence that the Minister will do this eventually, at the same time, I wonder are we going fast enough towards creating more jobs and absorbing those workers who are becoming redundant through efficiency in industry.

There are two large concerns in the city which I know of which have had efficiency experts in. They bought £9,000 worth of new machinery, and they produce better and cheaper articles. Unfortunately, this involves redundancy of workers. The replacement of workers is more a problem for the Department of Labour than the Department of Industry and Commerce. At the same time, unless we go on to create new jobs for people who become redundant, and for youths leaving school, we will be in a bad way indeed, and we will hardly be in a position to enter a European community with any hope of success.

Therefore, it gives me great pleasure to see this Supplementary Estimate being brought in, because it shows that the Department is alive and spending money on such things as the support of Córas Tráchtála which is doing an excellent job in trying to attract industries, and help small industries like the Kilkenny Design Workshops. The achievement of these workshops is a great step forward because some years ago we were slated by European experts for lack of design. The Government took notice of that criticism. The establishment of these workshops is tied in with the Minister's hope for the preservation of small industries. I do not think we will ever attract huge industries such as they have in the United Kingdom and on the Continent. Perhaps we do not want them. We want industries which will give our people an opportunity of displaying their talents, and ensure them a full life in their own country.

On the point of the attraction of outside industry and outside investment, one can only deplore the outlook of certain sections, of the Luddites, who oppose investment by outside industries. I have always found that the people who oppose the establishment of industries by outside investment come from the more affluent sections of society, the people who are in good jobs and good homes and who would not feel the pinch of unemployment or any scarcity. I think the House is behind the Minister and the Government in trying to attract outside industrialists. From time to time we have heard criticism of some of them and, probably in a few cases, it was justified. Some of the things on which we based our hopes did not come to fruition and we lost a lot of money on those industries. But just as you cannot have an omelette without breaking eggs, you certainly cannot expand industry without having some casualties on the way. These should not discourage us but rather should encourage us to continue expanding our efforts to develop industry, by showing European or American industrialists what we have here.

Unfortunately, we have not got a great deal of natural resources but I wonder if we are using even those we have to the fullest extent, and in the proper way. Deputy Pattison mentioned the Kilkenny coal mines. It would seem very important to us that those mines be kept going there but we have got to face the fact that the days of solid fuel have gone. Even in the United States and Britain —with their vast coalfields—they do not use them any more. But I think in Kilkenny, where we had that vast coal mine, it was a major disaster. It is to the credit of the Minister that he came to their assistance and we can only hope that the new investment in the mines will help to preserve present employment. But we have got to face the fact that we are only staving off the day when people will no longer use solid fuel. Apart from turf and the small amount of coal we have, we have little other resources of fuel. But we are glad to see the Minister spending quite a lot of money on mineral research. I wonder if it will be the responsibility of the Department to encourage mining companies to tap the coastal areas for natural gases and oil. It seems to me—if they can find all this natural gas under the North Sea—there must be some around our coast and surely we have, in our universities, sufficient geologists to give us some good line on this? If we did have any natural gases or oil around our coast, it would certainly change our whole economy for the better. I feel there must be some there and it would be well worth going after. I hope, when the Minister submits his main Estimate—if it is his responsibility—he will see that some money is provided for exploration of the coastal waters for oil and natural gases.

I do not know whether or not the technical assistance offered to firms by the Department has been fully taken up. One gets rather uneasy about these matters because we have a lot of inefficient industries here and the time has come in industry when both labour and capital must get together and realise there is one side only in industry, that there are not two sides. If a firm fails, the workers will be the first to feel the pinch and, after that, the executives. At the moment what we have to do —apart from planning expansion of production—is to safeguard present employment and we have to face the fact that we are not doing this. There have been grave irresponsibilities in industry, on both sides—capital and labour. We are coming to the point now when a hurt to one in industry will hurt everyone. If we can adopt this outlook, we would do far better in attracting outside industries, and do far better ourselves. While industrial peace is not the responsibility of this Minister, at the same time—by his legislation for industry—he can contribute much which will ease out, or remove, irritants which cause people to strike or be discontented. Now, with the setting up of the Department of Labour, we feel the Department of Industry and Commerce have a much better opportunity of doing their job with even more effect than heretofore.

I should like to ask the Minister how many firms have availed of improvement grants for their managements. I think they have not been availing of them and, on this point, we need to be very careful when we bring in experts. There was one very old-established firm in the city here who brought in a cross-channel firm of experts and, in six months, the firm was bankrupt. I passed the site recently and I saw the whole building being pulled down; yet that firm of consultants are so-called experts. We must all guard against those firms. It has ruined one very old-established firm here and, unless we are very careful, it could do the same to others. That firm of experts is located in Britain but has an American title. This is one of the pitfalls we must guard against—these quack practitioners in efficiency.

I have little more to say, except to impress upon the Minister again the terrible need for a quickening in the industrial rate of progress. We still have far too many people unemployed and we cannot sit back and accept that we have the perfect society while we cannot offer full employment to each person who needs it and is willing to work. It is worrying to most of us when we think of all the youngsters who will leave school in the near future and wonder what we can offer them. We do not want to offer them merely messenger boys'jobs, et cetera. If we do not alter the system which permits this kind of thing, somebody, some day, will alter it and, perhaps, not in the best way.

Mr. Kyne

I should like to take advantage of this Supplementary Estimate to give some information to the Minister in connection with a grave uneasiness developing in the National Board and Paper Mills of Waterford. I am quite sure the Minister is aware of the fact that almost a year ago this firm had a 16 weeks strike when great hardship was suffered by the workers there. Naturally, any suggestion now that circumstances are about to evolve which will reduce the employment content by some hundreds of people will give rise to a great feeling of uneasiness and, possibly, lead to unofficial action, unless something is done about it.

Some three weeks ago a meeting of Deputies from all sides of the House in the counties of Waterford and Kilkenny was called by the workers to hear their grievances and to ask them to use their good offices to arrange that the Minister, the union representatives and the firm would get together to see if there is any truth in the suggestion of the workers, and if anything can be done to allay their fears. I understand that meeting had been sought by some of the members of the Fianna Fáil Party resident in Waterford. In fact, a tentative date has been arranged, provided the Minister will, either himself or by detailing officials of his Department, meet all the parties concerned.

I am sure Deputies from all Parties are more than anxious that no hitch should occur, now that peace has been restored in this important Waterford factory. It is just as well, however, that the Minister should hear some of the story so that if he decides to go there himself or to allow someone to go on his behalf, he will have a rough idea of what the dispute is all about. Briefly, it is that a grant of £50,000 was given to the firm concerned to build a storeroom to contain pulp as the raw material for the making of cardboard.

Mr. Colley

I do not wish to interrupt the Deputy but does he think it wise that he should pursue it at this stage?

Mr. Kyne

If the Minister feels he is aware of all the circumstances, if he has got the information and assures me that is so——

Mr. Colley

It is nit so much that; I am not sure this is the place in which to give the information at this time.

Mr. Kyne

I certainly have no desire to do anything to hamper any peaceful solution but it has been made pretty public already.

Mr. Colley

I am just asking the Deputy——

Mr. Kyne

Briefly, anyway, it is suggested that manufactured material is coming into Waterford Harbour in the form of waste, that it has the relief of a duty-free licence and that this manufactured material is endangering the livelihoods of 200 men now employed. The meeting arranged is to discuss that matter so as to keep the manufacturing part of it in Waterford where the workers claim it has been for a number of years instead of allowing it to come in duty-free. That is the kernel of the case. The workers feel something should be done about it and I suggest that the Minister should endeavour to have an early meeting with representatives of the union and of the employers and the Deputies for the area, if necessary. What help the Deputies can give I do not know because this appears to be a matter for experts and that is where officials of the Department could come in.

I wish to congratulate the Minister on the establishment of the Waterford Industrial Estate. It is said we shall have the first of our new industries at a cost of £200,000. It represents terrific progress for the city of Waterford but, coming from the small industrial town of Dungarvan, I wish to point out that there is grave danger, if all industries are concentrated in Waterford, of many problems arising, not only a manpower problem but the problem, if a commuter service is established to take the workers into Waterford, of traffic congestion on roads leading to the city. There may also be the problem of housing the workers not only from Great Britain but from the hinterland of Waterford.

My suggestion is that some subsidiaries of these industries should be directed as much as possible to small towns in Kilkenny and Waterford such as Kilmacthomas, Dungarvan, Lismore and Cappoquin. These are four small towns all with unemployment problems. In Lismore, there are scarcely five people working—those employed by the Library Committee. All the others are messenger boys or shop assistants working in places depending on the trade of the rural community. The others all have to find employment in Youghal to which Sunbeam Wolsey run a commuter service to take them to and from work. If a subsidiary of this industry were established in Lismore, it would be to the benefit of all. Cappoquin has a small bacon factory employing from 60 to 70 people but a considerable number of people would continue to live in the town instead of commuting outside if subsidiary industries were established there.

I was interested in the proposal to give special grants to small factories. I had work from a firm in Douglas. They were seeking grants for the enlargement of what might be called one-man owned factories. I can instance the case of a light engineering factory established by one man who has built it up to a level at which he employs 15 to 20 people. He was disappointed, and so was I, to learn that these special grants were confined to a certain number of counties. Unfortunately his business in Waterford is on the wrong side of the river: if it were situated on the other side, it would be in Kilkenny and would qualify for a grant.

Does the Minister not consider in relation to these special grants that a better method would be to seek out a number of typical factories the grants would help rather than to confine the scheme to a certain number of counties? I submit that the scheme would be of much more widespread benefit if it were not confined to location but to a particular type of industry. I hope the Minister will endeavour to extend this scheme because the type of economy I have suggested is much more suited to Ireland than a concentration on big estates. If for any reason big firms employing from 2,000 to 3,000 people, fail or if raw materials run out, as in the case of Castlecomer Collieries, it results in loss of livelihood for entire communities.

I agree with Deputy Pattison's references to Castlecomer. Any money spent by the Government on endeavours to keep these mines open would be a good investment because we must look at such investment not only as an economic effort but as one to provide social benefits. In Castlecomer the life of the community depends on the continuation of mining there and until alternative employment can be found through the establishment of some new industry there, the mines should be continued.

Encouragement should be given to the small industrial development associations established throughout the country in small towns. I know the Minister is not empowered to direct industrialists away from Dublin and other big centres to remote parts of Ireland but I suggest that much more encouragement could be given to these local development committees. It is true they receive courtesy if they send a deputation to the IDA, who give them all the necessary information. Indeed, we feel that a good deal more encouragement could be given by sending from the Minister's office somebody who would talk to the committees, give them a reason for establishing an industry and suggest plans to them that they might keep or hold and give them any special knowledge of industrial development. I believe a trained man coming to one of those places could examine the natural resources of the place, whether the raw material was there or not or in whatever way he likes, could advise them whether they were wasting their time in endeavouring to establish an industrial development in such a community or whether it would be better to go into tourist development in a much larger way and leave aside their efforts to attract industry.

In my own town of Dungarvan, our local industrial development company there have in reserve a plot of six acres of land. We have had numerous inquiries regarding this plot. We even had one American firm who had an office established there. We are beginning to wonder now if there is any hope in a small rural community such as Dungarvan, which has only a population of 5,000 people, of attracting tourists especially with the talk of an industrial estate where not only can you buy a factory already built and sheds but can rent them on a temporary capacity, if you so wish. It would be important if the Minister would direct some of his expert investigation to the local development communities and enable them to decide whether there is any future in this wasting of money afforded to Germany, France and other countries, and indeed to America for the establishment of industries in such localities as those.

I wish the Minister well with his Supplementary Estimate. Indeed, I can guarantee him that at all times he will have the support of the Labour Party in any efforts he makes and any money he requires to promote industrial expansion. I suggest to him that he should endeavour to set up this meeting between the National Board and Paper Mills, the trade union officials and his officials because there is a genuine fear of loss of employment to the workers.

Mr. Cluskey

We welcome the opportunity provided by this Supplementary Estimate to make some comment on the Department in charge of industries. It would be fair to say that there is considerable disappointment with regard to the unemployment position in so far as there are more people unemployed this year than there were this time last year, despite the high hopes that were held out under the Second Programme for Economic Expansion. We hope the Minister will make every possible effort to provide employment for our people. Unemployment, unfortunately, has been a curse in this country over the years. It is sad to think after so long a period of native government, instead of that situation improving, it is in fact becoming more acute.

The Minister's Department is responsible for the payment of very substantial grants to people who are enticed here by agencies of his Department to establish industry and by doing so, to provide employment for our people. We in the Labour Party are prepared, and have shown we were prepared, to give support to any efforts that might be made which would result in achieving full employment for our people. However, we are concerned with the way some of those very substantial grants have been paid out of public funds and have not resulted in providing anything like the employment that was forecast or anticipated. We are also concerned with the very substantial grants to industries that have been made without any return whatsoever, or very little return in most cases, to the people who are paying the piper, that is, the taxpayers.

One of the most disappointing instances and the one that most highlighted the loose way in which some of those grants are made was the very unfortunate experience of Potez. Nobody knows what the exact amount was.

Mr. Donegan

Oh, yes.

Mr. Cluskey

It was very definitely in excess of £1 million. As a matter of fact, if we had been more careful with regard to the grant made to Potez, we could have given the Minister what he is seeking now and have some change. We feel a much more thorough investigation should be made of the people who seek grants and other concessions to establish industries here and that a much more thorough investigation into the possibilities and potentials of the particular industries they want to establish should be made. We also feel that there should be a great tightening up of the arrangements to ensure that if we have what can only be described as international con-men cashing in on these benefits and facilities we are prepared to offer them in order to try to secure employment for our people, there will be a definite means of dealing with any future Potez we may come across.

There is also the question of people coming in here to establish industry. We hear from Government spokesmen that it is not their money we require but their technical knowledge and their ability in marketing, that they have already developed a market for the particular product and apart from their technical knowledge, we must have these people in order to ensure an outlet for the particular product they manufacture. While this may be true, in very many cases there is no effort made to train or to give an opportunity for training to Irish nationals to acquire the technical knowledge these people have. We feel it essential that when these people come in here to establish industries and have this special technical knowledge or ability, it should be a condition that our people be given an opportunity, and every opportunity, to train and acquire this knowledge and every effort should be made by some of the agencies which come under the Minister's Department to try to establish our own outlets for these products so that we will not be indefinitely dependent on outside people for the continuation of these industries.

The Minister mentioned expenses in connection with the New York World Fair. I am not sure whether this comes under the Minister's Department—it may be the Department of Agriculture—but I should like to mention it. I saw a television programme recently in which it was stated that there was an international fair held in Paris in which we, as a Government, did not participate. Individual Irish companies had displays there, some of them quite good and others which got very sharp criticism, justifiable criticism, from the commentator. Here we are about to enter the Common Market and an international fair was held in Paris which gave a wonderful opportunity to nations to display what they had to offer. Governments as far away as New Zealand and Australia participated in this fair and it is a sad reflection on our Government that we had no pavilion. Except for a few isolated cases where individual Irish firms had a display, we were not represented. Surely this was an ideal opportunity of showing our goods to people who might be enticed to do business with us? God knows, we need the business.

With regard to our participation in the New York World Fair I had an opportunity of visiting the Irish pavilion in New York. I can only say that I was more than disappointed with some of the features of that pavilion. I think I described the exterior of the pavilion as looking like a Mexican adobe hut that could not, by the wildest stretch of the imagination, be identified with Ireland. There was nothing characteristically Irish about it. I could not understand why, at a world fair of this type, we had not something that obviously represented Ireland, unless we were trying to perpetuate for the Americans the concept of the pig in the kitchen and that we had this type of hut in Ireland, as well as all the other misconceptions that many Americans have of us. I will say that the interior of the pavilion was of a very high standard and it would be very difficult to find fault with it. It displayed some of the finer things in our country. There were recordings of poems by such people as Micheál Mac Liammóir, Siobhán McKenna and people like that. It was very impressive.

However, and this is what I took the greatest exception to, when one left the pavilion itself, in the grounds attached to it, a concession had been granted to a private individual to sell Gaelic coffee at an exorbitant price. Why we allowed a private individual, although he had a very Irish name and was possibly born here, to exploit and, in my opinion, downgrade a pavilion representing this country is something I could not understand. I would ask the Minister to ensure that if we participate in any more fairs of any kind, this type of free enterprise will not be allowed and that we will not allow our pavilion to be downgraded in this manner.

I have only one other comment to make. I think it is very important that something which has recently cropped up should be explained to the public and that there should be no confusion in the mind of the public with regard to the purpose and the affairs of the Department with regard to certain associations. I have seen reference recently to an association of businessmen which has been formed: I think they go under the title of Taca. The purpose of this organisation is to bring together businessmen whose sole purpose in coming together is to provide funds and moral support for the Fianna Fáil Party. I believe the arrangement is that these people will meet three or four times a year and will be addressed by senior Ministers. At a recent dinner in the Gresham Hotel, the dinner was provided at £100 per plate, the proceeds to go to the Fianna Fáil Party.

Mr. Colley

That would be nice if we could do it.

Mr. Cluskey

You have done it. However, this type of thing——

An Ceann Comhairle

How does this arise out of the Supplementary Estimate?

Mr. Donegan

If you do not pay the £100, you do not get your grant.

Mr. Colley

I do not know what this has to do with the Supplementary Estimate.

Mr. Cluskey

I will try not to be ambiguous about what I am going to say. This association of businessmen who are prepared to pay £100 for a dinner, the proceeds of which go to the Fianna Fáil Party, are addressed in great secrecy by senior Ministers of the Government. There could be a very direct tie-up between public grant, or grants, for instance, for business premises——

An Ceann Comhairle

I should like the Deputy to relate this to the Estimate before the House for which the Minister is responsible.

Mr. Cluskey

The Supplementary Estimate refers to the payment of grants. It is important that the people should be reassured that if the Fianna Fáil Party form an association of businessmen——

An Ceann Comhairle

That is purely political.

Mr. Cluskey

——the patronage which these people exercise——

An Ceann Comhairle

I cannot allow the Deputy to continue on these lines.

Mr. Cluskey

——will not be on the lines of securing grants from public funds. The people should be reassured that one of the qualifications for a grant is not membership of Taca.

Mr. Colley

The Deputy's allegations are like those of individual members of the Press, asking people to deny rumours which they themselves are circulating.

Mr. Cluskey

We know that this form of political practice is carried on extensively in the United States.

An Ceann Comhairle

I do not think the Deputy can proceed along the lines on which he is proceeding.

Mr. Cluskey

I am trying to establish and clear the air regarding the giving of grants to businessmen, for instance, for business or other purposes, that this is not directly associated with Taca and that it is not a condition that preference is given to businessmen who are members of this Fianna Fáil association, the primary purpose of which is to raise funds for the Fianna Fáil Party.

Mr. Colley

Has the Deputy one iota of evidence to support the kind of allegation he is making? If he has not, would he not show a little decency?

Mr. Briscoe

He has no decency.

Mr. Cluskey

This Fianna Fáil organisation——

An Ceann Comhairle

Will the Deputy allow me, please? The Minister is responsible for the administration of a certain amount of money and how he administers it is being discussed. The Deputy will want to connect that with the allegation he is making that certain people are getting dinners at £100.

Mr. Cluskey

They are paying £100, Sir.

An Ceann Comhairle

I do not see any connection between that and the administration of the funds allocated to the Minister.

Mr. Cluskey

I shall try to explain.

Mr. Colley

Is the Deputy suggesting that any administration under my Department is paying grants because of money paid to Fianna Fáil? Is the Deputy saying that? If not, how does he relate it to the Supplementary Estimate?

Mr. Cluskey

If the Minister will allow me.

Mr. Colley

To throw more mud.

Mr. Briscoe

He is mudslinging.

Mr. Cluskey

I shall try to explain to the Minister in reply to his question. I have said that there is a rumour abroad to the effect that people who are members of this Fianna Fáil association of businessmen, known as Taca, will receive preference with regard to the distribution of grants from public funds.

Mr. Colley

Am I responsible for rumours which the Deputy tries to circulate in the House? Is there any other relevance except the rumours?

Mr. Cluskey

The Minister is upset at this allegation.

Mr. Colley

I challenge the Deputy to give one iota of evidence.

Mr. Cluskey

If they do this in the hope that they will get preference for public money, the Minister will have to answer for it in this House, so far as I am concerned. If Fianna Fáil want to engage in this type of politics, I, for one, intend to make sure that the public are aware of what is going on.

Mr. Colley

The Deputy has no evidence of this and he knows it. He is just chancing his arm and trying to throw mud.

Mr. Cluskey

The Minister has exposed——

Mr. Colley

What has he exposed?

An Ceann Comhairle

Will the Deputy resume——

Mr. Cluskey

——that senior Ministers in a Fianna Fáil organisation composed of businessmen——

Mr. Colley

What has that got to do with the Supplementary Estimate?

Mr. Cluskey

——meet. The Press and everyone else is excluded and great precautions are taken by the management of the particular hotel in which the meeting is held to ensure that the public will not be aware of it.

An Ceann Comhairle

I cannot allow——

Mr. Colley

What has that got to do with the Minister for Industry and Commerce?

Mr. Cluskey

I intend anyway that the public will be aware that an association of businessmen are paying into Fianna Fáil Party funds and that it is possible that they will receive by way of perk——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy will please resume his seat.

Mr. Cluskey

——an increase in transfers of public funds——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy will please resume his seat.

Mr. Cluskey

It is of the utmost importance that this new introduction of political tactics——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy will resume his seat or I will name him to the House.

Mr. Briscoe

That is what he wants.

Mr. Cluskey

——will be widely known to the Irish people.

Mr. Donegan

Could we not forget this whole thing?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is most irrelevant.

Mr. Cluskey

The country should know that this organisation exists.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is most irrelevant and must resume his seat.

Mr. Briscoe

He wants to be put out.

An Ceann Comhairle

Will the Deputy resume his seat? The Minister is responsible for the administration of a certain amount of money which is specified in the Supplementary Estimate before the House. The Deputy has not related anything he is saying to the expenditure of that money.

Mr. Cluskey

I suggest that the distribution of this money will be directly related——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy will pass from that or I will ask him to leave the House.

Mr. Cluskey

I think it is relevant.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy may think it is but I think it is not. The Deputy will resume his seat, or else leave the House.

Mr. Cluskey

There is a suggestion that there is this association which is comprised of businessmen——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy will resume his seat.

Mr. Cluskey

——and their primary purpose is to pay substantial amounts of money into Fianna Fáil funds——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy wishes to——

Mr. Cluskey

——by repayment preference with regard to the distribution of public funds.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy will leave the House. He is refusing to obey the Chair.

Mr. Cluskey

I bow to the ruling of the Chair.

Deputy Cluskey withdrew from the Chamber.

Mr. Briscoe

This is what the Deputy wanted.

Notice taken that 20 Members were not present; House counted, and 20 Members being present,

Mr. Colley

I want to thank the House, in the main, for the reception given to this Supplementary Estimate. Most of the Deputies who spoke on it were constructive and endeavoured to be helpful. There were certain exceptions, as one can expect.

To deal with some of the more important points raised, I might mention first the reference by Deputy Donegan to the criticism recently made by the Federation of Irish Industries of our grant facilities and the way they are applied for the benefit of existing industries. There is a strong case for a reassessment of what we are doing at the moment. The Deputy will be aware that a survey is being conducted by a firm of consultants on the whole question of our grant incentives and the structure of the Industrial Development Authority. We hope to have the result of that fairly shortly. Pending that, I do not think I should express any views on what changes might be made in our existing system.

Deputy Donegan also complained that certain industries do not qualify for adaptation grants. I think he mentioned laundries and bakeries. Dry cleaning is another. He did not mention it but it was treated in the same category. The board of An Foras Tionscal had regard to the purpose of the adaptation grants, which is to assist firms engaged in programmes of expenditure on enlargement and adaptation to meet free trade conditions. The board of An Foras Tionscal came to the conclusion that these industries and the moneys they might wish to spend on the expansion of their business did not come within this category.

Mr. Donegan

In conditions of free trade, bakeries, particularly along the Border, will be very seriously affected by manufactured bread from across the Border. It seems unjust that they should not be helped to adapt themselves for free trade.

Mr. Colley

This is true. The Deputy has a point. I know, in regard to the Border.

Mr. Donegan

It is something that might be looked at.

Mr. Colley

Yes. The Deputy will appreciate there are certain difficulties in taking only bakeries in certain areas but we shall have a look at it.

Mr. Donegan

In Dublin also.

Mr. Colley

Reference was made by a number of Deputies to the industrial estate in Waterford. I am glad to say it is expected that there will be six factories ready for occupation in that estate in July. We hope that, at the very opening, there will be some worthwhile industry actually occupying the factories as they open. It is intended also to have factory space available before industries come. This is one of the objects in the industrial estate.

There was a reference to the danger of industries employing too high a proportion of female labour. It was pointed out that this leads to disruption of the labour market and, indeed, I do not know if it was said but it was implied, and rightly so, that it is a social disruption as well. This, of course, is quite true. There are areas in Deputy Donegan's constituency where this is particularly acute, I know. However, it will be realised in this connection that the first thing to be thought of is that you do not want all male labour. This can produce a social problem as well as a pattern of all female labour. You may have men employed there and no women to marry them. A certain balance is required between the two.

The Industrial Development Authority give details to people who are thinking of setting up industries here of what the situation is in a particular locality as regards female and male employment. They endeavour, to that extent, to lead them by showing them the figures so that people can see for themselves whether or not it is an advantage to go into an area, having regard to the kind of employment they intend to give.

Reference was made by a number of Deputies to some of our failures in industries. The firm of Potez has particularly been mentioned. I deplore that two members of the Labour Party, in referring to this, used the word "con-men" or some such word. Whatever view one may take of this particular project or of anybody connected with it, it is quite unjustifiable to make any suggestion or imputation that any confidence trick was operated here by us on behalf of Monsieur Potez. The real test of his sincerity in this is the fact that he has invested a sum which I believe is in the region of £3 million of his own money. This is a very genuine test of anybody's sincerity, quite apart from any question of judgment, so that, whatever may be said about this matter, I feel it is quite unfair to make allegations of bad faith.

I am quite concerned about the situation that exists in regard to the Potez factory. Monsieur Potez is under no illusion as to my concern in that regard. Certain steps are being taken to try to remedy the situation, but, as yet, I am unfortunately not in a position to tell the House what those steps are or what the prospects are because disclosure of what is going on would be damaging to the proposals that are at present in mind. I have no desire to keep information in regard to this project from the House any longer than is absolutely necessary. I repeat the undertaking given by my predecessor and, I think, repeated by me in the House, that at the earliest suitable opportunity a full report on this whole project will be given to the House.

I welcome very much Deputy Donegan's very generous tribute to Córas Tráchtála which I think is fully deserved, as I have already indicated recently in the House.

In regard to failures in general in industries which are attracted in here from outside, there are some things that have been said that are obvious but I do not think their import has been fully taken in. Most Deputies have said that they accept the fact that in a programme such as this, there are bound to be some failures. I think there are a number of Deputies who, although they have said this, have not really grasped what it means. It means that we are bound to have some failures and, when we do, there is no use in saying at that stage that more care should have been taken, and so on, on general principles. It is all right if one can say in a particular case that care was not taken and one can show this. This is legitimate criticism. But, to say in general that more care should be taken simply because we have failures is unrealistic.

We must remember that in attracting industry here, we are in a highly competitive business. We are competing with other people, including Northern Ireland, which was mentioned here, some of whom have very much more money available for their programmes than we have and have other attractions that we may not have. We are competing in a highly competitive market in attracting industry here. Some Deputies have talked about the kind of safeguards that should be imposed. If my object were to ensure that our interests were completely copper-fastened and there was no risk at all, I could devise many more restrictions that should be placed on industrialists coming in here, but, of course, I would effectively ensure that no worthwhile industrialist came in.

This is something that must be borne in mind: not only are we competing with others but any worthwhile industrialist is a man who is in business and knows he has to take certain risks but he is not prepared to have his business so tied down that it is in the hands of our Government or any other Government. If we want to impose these kinds of conditions, we can ensure that we have no failures but we may also ensure that we will have no industries.

Deputy Dunne said that there was a drop in employment in the past 12 months and, although he did not know, that he believed that the drop was in manufacturing industry. I have got some figures in that connection which I should, perhaps, mention to the House. In the quarter ended 30th September, 1966, employment in manufacturing industry was 2,100 above that of the corresponding period of 1965, while in the quarter ended 30th June, 1966, employment in manufacturing industry was 1,400 less than in the corresponding period of 1965. So it would appear that while there was some loss of employment in the earlier part of last year in manufacturing industry, in the later part of the year it was more than made up for. This, of course, was in circumstances in which, as we all know, our economic difficulties and the international economic difficulties were considerable.

Just for the record, let me say that the story to which Deputy Dunne referred of the Potez factory being used as a television studio or some such is complete news to me. I have heard nothing about this and I rather think it is untrue or I would know about it.

I do not wish to embark on a fullscale debate on whether or not we ought to go into the Common Market but I do think it is time that members of the Labour Party who speak on this topic would start telling us realistically what they believe is the alternative to membership. Do they mean staying out altogether? Do they mean some form of association? In either case, what do they visualise exactly would be the results politically, economically and particularly as regards employment? It is not good enough to go on forever expressing doubts about the Common Market and not saying exactly what they stand for themselves.

There was some reference to Castlecomer and the assistance which has been given there to the coalmines. I think it is clear from what has already happened that the Government have already shown their special interest in and concern for Castlecomer and their understanding of the fact that there could be a very grave social problem involved there. The form of approach to this problem by the Government has been twofold. On the one hand, as the House knows, further financial assistance was given to Castlecomer to enable exploration to be made of further resources and, as I mentioned in introducing the Supplementary Estimate, the indications are certainly not bad and we would hope by the end of the present year to be in a position to make a reasonable assessment of the prospects. It has been established, as I have mentioned, that there is a large deposit of coal there but what has yet to be established is whether it is economically extractable.

The other aspect of the Government's approach to the Castlecomer problem has been to ensure that An Foras Tionscal now treat Castlecomer as a special area warranting the giving of a grant of up to two-thirds of the cost for a suitable industry in that area which would otherwise be eligible only for a maximum of 50 per cent.

Both Deputy Pattison and Deputy Kyne made reference to the local industrial development associations and I concur in what they said. I concur in the tribute they paid to the members of these associations and the very good work that most of them are doing, putting in a lot of time, trouble and money, as I think Deputy Pattison said, very often simply out of a sense of loyalty to the community in which they live and to the nation in general. These people deserve the thanks of all of us.

It was suggested that they deserve more than thanks. It was said that they get courtesy and assistance from the Industrial Development Authority and my Department—I hope they do —but that perhaps they could get something more in the way of contact with them and the extension to them of special knowledge that might be available to us. I am glad to tell the House that the Industrial Development Authority is organising a seminar to be held in Athlone early in April for members of such development associations throughout the country. I hope to be present at this seminar. It is hoped to make available to the participants the knowledge and expertise which have been acquired over the years by the Industrial Development Authority and by certain local development associations and individuals who have been particularly successful in this kind of operation. It is hoped to make available their experience and knowledge and to try to advise the members of these associations generally on how best to approach the task they have taken on. I hope that this will be a worthwhile operation and, if it is, and if it appears that there is room for expanding the scope of this kind of operation, then we will certainly do so.

Deputy Kyne mentioned that he had certain fears in regard to the Waterford industrial estate, about the concentration within the estate operating perhaps to the detriment of small towns in surrounding areas. I want to say to him, that it is envisaged that the development of an industrial estate would lead to the development of industries in smaller towns in the surrounding area of the kind he had in mind, industries which would make components or parts for industries located in the industrial estate. This is certainly part of the plan in connection with the industrial estates. Having said that, we must also recognise the fact that more and more of our people are going to have to become commuters to a large extent and the idea of travelling a considerable distance to work, which might not have been acceptable to us ten years ago, is going to have to become more and more accepted. Indeed, it has already become so in certain areas.

For instance, in relation to Shannon it is well known now that workers commute quite a considerable distance. It is very likely that the pattern of industrial development in relation to those estates or growth centres could well lead to more and more of this. Apart from any programme that might be developed for helping small industries, the main industrial development is going to be based on larger industries, particularly in growth centres, and this of necessity is going to mean more and more workers commuting to these centres.

I might say to Deputy Kyne that he would be unwise to come to the contance clusion that Dungarvan is not going to get any industry. I can understand why he had this fear but it would be an unwise assumption and no industrial development association in an area should give up their efforts without having had a pretty clear indication that they are wasting their time. I am not aware of any of them who are wasting their time at present, but in particular, they would not be wasting their time in Dungarvan. I have dealt with most of the main points which were raised and if I have omitted any, it is not by design that I have done so.

Vote put and agreed to.

Mr. Colley

I understand that technically this Vote has to be reported.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

What we had intended to do was to report the whole series of Supplementary and Additional Estimates at the end of the day.

Mr. James Tully

That is a bit ambitious. That means they will all be taken today.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Whatever number will be taken, we will report the Estimates dealt with en bloc.

Mr. Cosgrave

Do we not report them next week? Would that not be time enough?

Mr. Colley

It is getting so late in the financial year that it might be of importance if we could have it reported.

Mr. Cosgrave

I understand that all these Supplementary Estimates are reported in the next week, so that you will have them for the end of the financial year.

Mr. Colley

We need the money in the meantime.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The practice is to report the Estimates that have been agreed to each day.

Mr. Cosgrave

We can report this Estimate now.

Vote reported and agreed to.