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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 15 Mar 1967

Vol. 227 No. 5

Committee on Finance. - Vote 38 — Agriculture.

I move:

That a supplementary sum not exceeding £3,167,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1967, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries, including certain Services administered by that Office, and for payment of certain Subsidies and Sundry Grants-in-Aid.

The net amount of this Supplementary Estimate, added to the original Estimate for 1966-67, brings the total net expenditure from the Vote for Agriculture to £38,476,000.

The main items in the present Estimate are Subhead K.12 — Bovine Tuberculosis Eradication Scheme, Subhead K.21 — Beef, Mutton and Lamb Export Guarantee Schemes, Subhead K.22 — Temporary Scheme of Headage Payments on Fat Cattle exported for immediate slaughter, Subhead K.23— Scheme of Grants for Farrowed Sows and Subhead N. — Marketing of Dairy Produce. The gross total of the additional sums required under the various subheads amounts to over £5½ million but against this it is now estimated that Appropriations-in-Aid will be over £½ million greater than the original provision and also that there will be savings on other subheads of the Vote amounting to over £1.8 million.

An additional sum of £2,399,000 is needed to meet the cost of the support given to cattle and sheep prices. This is made up of £1,739,000 to meet the extra cost of the support payments on carcase beef, mutton and lamb exported to Britain and £660,000 to meet expenditure under the Temporary Fat Cattle Headage Payments Scheme of last autumn.

As Deputies are aware, the Anglo-Irish Free Trade Area Agreement provides for extension of the UK fatstock guarantees to 25,000 tons of Irish carcase beef and 5,500 tons of Irish carcase mutton and lamb exported annually to Britain. For exports in excess of those quantities the Irish Government are providing a similar level of support.

Exports of carcase beef, mutton and lamb to Britain since 1st July, 1966, when the Free Trade Area Agreement came into operation, have been running at a high level and it is estimated that for the nine months ending 31st March, 1967, support payments will have been made on a total of 38,500 tons of beef and 8,350 tons of mutton and lamb, at a total cost of about £1,758,000. For the first three months of the financial year, that is, the quarter ended 30th June, 1966, £56,000 was expended on support payments on carcase beef exports to Britain under the temporary scheme introduced by the Irish Government in February, 1965. The total support payments on carcase beef, mutton and lamb exports for the year 1966-67, as a whole, will, therefore, amount to about £1,814,000.

As against that amount, the payments which we will receive from the British Government on our exports of beef, mutton and lamb under the Free Trade Area Agreement for the nine months from 1st July last to 31st March, 1967, will amount to about £1 million. These payments will be made on 18,750 tons of beef and 4,125 tons of lamb, that is, three-quarters of the amounts provided for a full year in the Agreement. The precise amount to be secured from the British Government cannot be calculated until after the end of the British fatstock year on 26th March and none of the money will be received before the end of the present financial year. It is expected, however, that we will receive most of it during April.

The fat cattle headage payments scheme was, of course, introduced as a special emergency measure at the end of August to strengthen market conditions for cattle producers here at a time when prices weakened. This weakening of prices has been brought about by a number of factors outside our control, the principal ones being the sluggish demand from Britain for our stores and the virtual closing of the EEC markets to imports of cattle and beef as a result of the imposition of very high levies. I think there can be little doubt but that the fat cattle headage payments scheme kept trade moving during a very difficult period and prevented what could have been a more serious situation in the market. Other countries such as Britain herself and Denmark were, of course, equally affected by the difficult cattle and beef market situation last autumn.

A sum of £1,240,000 is required under Subhead N — Marketing of Dairy Produce. Deliveries of milk to creameries set a new record in 1966, the total quantity used for manufacturing purposes being 406 million gallons, which was 14 million gallons, or 3.6 per cent above the 1965 level. The late spring seriously retarded milk production during the early part of last year, and if weather conditions had been more favourable, deliveries to creameries during the year would certainly have been appreciably higher.

The general creamery milk price allowance paid by the Exchequer was increased from 4d. to 6d. per gallon as from 27th May, 1966, and the extra sum required to meet this is £2,305,000.

I am glad to say that the special extra allowance for quality milk which was introduced in May, 1965, is proving successful. In framing this year's Estimates it had been assumed that some 40 per cent of the milk delivered to creameries would receive the quality allowance. In fact, almost 49 per cent of the milk qualified in 1966, and because of this an extra £102,000 is now required to meet the cost of this quality allowance. As Deputies are aware, the special quality allowance will be increased from 1d. to 2d. per gallon on 1st April next. This increased allowance represents a very significant bonus on the basic price of milk and makes it well worthwhile for producers to take all possible steps to ensure that their milk qualifies for the extra allowance each month.

A grant of up to £18,000 was sanctioned in 1965-66 for a milk collection pilot scheme operated by the Waterford Co-operative Society and £10,000 was paid to the society in that year. Only a token provision was made in this year's Estimate as it was not certain when the balance of the grant would be required. An additional £7,000 was in fact sought during the year, and that sum is now included in this Supplementary Estimate. The pilot scheme is designed to test the operation of bulk milk collection under Irish conditions and the final results are not yet available.

The gross total of the extra amounts now being sought for the creamery milk price allowance, the quality milk allowance and the milk collection pilot scheme comes to £2,414,000 but, as there is a saving of £1,174,000 in the amount provided by way of grant to An Bord Bainne, the net increase required under the Subhead is £1,240,000. The sum provided for An Bord Bainne in this year's Estimate was £4,750,000 but it now appears that, due to such factors as the effects of the late spring on total milk production and the better prices prevailing on exports markets, the actual loss will be about £3,576,000. The improved export returns arose particularly in the case of cheese, the improvement in that case being due primarily to the grading scheme introduced by my Department during the year. This grading scheme has resulted in considerable trade interest in Irish cheese in Britain and it is expected that it will help to achieve a further reduction in export losses in the future.

The total sum being provided by the Exchequer for milk support including the grant to An Bord Bainne, is £13,880,000 or about 8d. per gallon of milk delivered to creameries. The comparable total for 1965-66 was £10,704,000. These large sums are convincing evidence of the Government's willingness to assist the dairying industry within the limits of available resources.

In regard to Subhead K.12, the expenditure on the Bovine Tuberculosis Eradication Scheme for the year is now estimated at £2,882,000, which represents an increase of £1,000,000 over the sum already provided. As an offset to this, the receipts in respect of the salvage of reactors are also estimated to show an increase of £552,000 on the original estimate of £400,000. The main reason for the excess expenditure is that in the six counties of the South, which were attested in October, 1965, the percentage of reactors to the tuberculin test was higher than expected. This increase in the incidence of the disease, while disappointing, is not of great significance, and there is every hope that the 1967 round of testing will show a considerable improvement.

During the past year there has been a decline in pig output in most pigproducing countries in Western Europe. Despite price support measures in many countries the traditional pig cycle has not been eliminated. This country has not been immune from the general cyclical decline and total deliveries to bacon factories during the year 1966 were 1.65 million pigs approximately, as compared with the record total of nearly 1.8 million pigs in 1965. The 1966 figure, was, however, substantially higher than in the years prior to 1965. With a view to countering at an early stage the downward trend in pig production my predecessor announced in May, 1966, a scheme of grants for farrowed sows. Under this scheme a grant of £5 is paid for each farrowed sow up to a maximum of five in each herd. In this Supplementary Estimate I am providing in Subhead K. 23 a sum of £275,000 to cover the cost of the farrowed sow scheme up to 31st March. It is too early yet to indicate the effects of the scheme which is to continue up to September next. The records of sow services, however, suggest that the downward trend in production has been halted.

Last year two schemes were introduced with a view to helping mountain sheep farmers. These schemes were based on recommendations made to my predecessor by an expert group which he set up to examine the problem. One scheme provided for the payment of a subsidy of 10/- each on Blackface Mountain and Cheviot wether lambs sold off the hills in the period from 1st August to 15th October and which were considered by the Department's inspectors to be suitable for finishing on the lowlands. Under the second scheme a subsidy of £1 each was paid on Greyface and Halfbred hogget ewes presented for inspection at approved centres in the period 1st August to 30th September.

The immediate purpose of the schemes was to improve the quality and productivity of mountain flocks by encouraging the removal of the two most unproductive types of sheep off the mountains. In addition, the lamb subsidy was intended to provide lowland farmers with an improved supply of wethers suitable for fattening while the hogget ewe subsidy was intended to encourage flock owners in the foothills to buy Blackface Mountain and Cheviot ewes from mountain flocks for mating with Border Leicester rams to produce the Greyface and Halfbred ewes on which the subsidy was payable at the hogget stage. Under these schemes subsidy was paid on approximately 67,000 wether lambs and 11,500 hogget ewes, the total expenditure being £47,000 including incidental expenses of approximately £2,000. I am having the schemes reviewed in the light of suggestions made from various sources and of the experience gained last year.

An additional sum of £30,500 is required under Subhead K.10 for the Warble Fly Eradication Scheme. This scheme which has been in operation on a countrywide basis for the past three years has been an outstanding success. In 1964 over two million cattle were dressed, in 1965 4½ million approximately and in 1966 about five million. The level of infestation with warbles, which a few years ago was as high as 60 per cent to 70 per cent dropped to 3 per cent after the 1965 campaign. Information recently received from Britain indicates that, of Irish cattle arriving there in 1966, only 0.8 per cent showed warble infestation. A decision on the future of the eradication campaign cannot be taken until we have completed a survey of the incidence of warbles in cattle in the coming weeks.

In the meantime the staffs of my Department's district offices are engaged on a spring campaign aimed at dressing for warbles cattle which were not treated in the autumn. I am anxious to give all owners of such cattle a further opportunity of having them dressed and I would appeal to them to get in touch with their district veterinary offices with a view to arranging treatment. I am afraid there will be no option but to take action against cattle owners who do not avail themselves of this final opportunity to dress their cattle. There is also the possibility that, since the dressings used are not 100 per cent effective in every case, some cattle which were dressed and duly certified in the autumn may show some slight evidence of infestation during the next few months which is the season when warbles normally appear on the animals' backs. Any such certified cattle will be re-dressed free of charge.

The standard charge of 3/- per animal will be made for dressing uncertified cattle and on this basis it is anticipated that the spring dressing campaign will be self-supporting. Accordingly the sum of £8,500 shown in the Estimate under Subhead K.10 (3) is offset by a corresponding Appropriation in Aid in Subhead P. (31).

Subhead K.10 also contains a provision of £22,000 for compensation to herdowners for losses attributable to the dressings used under the Scheme. It will be noted from Subhead P. (32) that this expenditure will be offset by receipts from the proceeds of a charge of one penny per dressing certificate issued for cattle treated in the 1966 dressing campaign.

A sum of £15,000 is required under Subhead L.1., of which £13,500 is for compensation for fowl destroyed as a result of fowl pest outbreaks during 1966. With regard to the fowl pest situation, I should like to emphasise again that, although the condition has been labelled fowl pest, the only relation to that disease is in the positive reaction to a blood test. In no case were there clinical signs of the disease. Neither was there any spread of the condition nor any drop in production from birds showing positive reactions and in no case was the virus isolated.

While on the subject of animal disease, I would refer to the ever-present danger of the introduction of foot and mouth disease into this country. Holland is at present badly affected, and since the beginning of the year fresh outbreaks have occurred in Italy, West Germany and, nearer home, in Britain. My Department has intensified the precautionary measures which are continuously in operation against the introduction of the disease, but the effectiveness of these measures depends on the full co-operation of all concerned. I would appeal especially to persons in the livestock trade travelling abroad, and to Irish people working abroad on the land or in meat processing plants, etc., to be particularly cautious when abroad and to report for disinfection to my Department's staff at ports and airports immediately on landing in this country.

A sum of £196,000 is required under Subhead K.8 of which £188,000 is to meet excess expenditure on the Land Project Lime and Fertiliser Credit Scheme. The original estimate was £185,000. The generous credit terms provided under this scheme are attracting an increasing number of applications and present indications are that this increased interest will continue.

The original provision made under Subhead F for grants to county committees of agriculture is now estimated to be insufficient to the extent of £55,000.

A further £29,000 is also required under Subhead K.16 in respect of grants for forage harvesting equipment. I am glad to say that this scheme is proving very popular and applications for grants have been increasing each year since its introduction.

Deputies will note that, under Subhead D.10, I am seeking £2,000 for the Farm Apprenticeship Scheme. This arises from the fact that this year we propose, for the first time, to pay the Farm Apprenticeship Board a grant towards their administrative expenses. This is made up of a basic grant of £1,200 plus a supplementary grant of £1 for every £1 which the Board raises from non-State sources up to a maximum of £800.

Under Subhead D.4 and D.5, I am seeking £46,000 for the Veterinary Medicine faculty of University College, Dublin and the school of Veterinary Medicine of Trinity College. This is due partly to the transfer of some staff from the payroll of the Veterinary College to that of the Universities and partly to increases in pay granted by the Universities to their teaching staffs last year. So far as the staff transferred is concerned there is, of course, a resultant saving in the provision for the Veterinary College itself — Subhead D.3 — which has been taken into account in the total savings shown in the Estimate.

While on the subject of university education, I would like to take the opportunity of informing the House that I have told the authorities of University College, Cork, that they may go ahead with arrangements for the extension of their Dairy Science Faculty. I regard this project, which will ultimately involve State outlay of over half a million pounds, as highly important for the future of the country's dairy industry. All going well, it is hoped to commence building work around next September.

Under Subhead C.C.3 an additional sum of £150,000 is required for the purpose of increasing the amount of this country's pledge to the World Food Programme in the current three-year period, 1966 to 1968. As the House knows the Programme is a joint UN/FAO project which aims at the utilisation of surplus food donated by member countries of these organisations in implementing social and economic development programmes in the developing countries of the world. The target set for the Programme in the current period was 275 million dollars but the total amount pledged by all countries to date is of the order of 155 million dollars. The United Nations and the Food and Agriculture Organisation have recently appealed to member states to increase their pledges to enable the goal of 275 million dollars to be reached.

A sum of £450,000 was pledged on behalf of Ireland in January, 1966, and the additional amount now being sought will increase our pledge to £600,000. Ireland's pledge to the Programme in its initial three-year period from 1963 to 1965, when the target set was 100 million dollars, was £300,000. This country's pledges to the Programme are fulfilled on the basis of approximately one-third of the pledge being provided in cash and the balance in Irish foodstuffs, usually milk-powder and canned meat.

The additional sum of £60,000 required under Subhead A is to meet the cost of tenth round pay increases.

I move:

That the Vote be referred back for reconsideration.

I do so in order to widen the scope of the discussion and not because we object in any way to the amounts being sought apart from minor exceptions. This Estimate is in respect of a period during which there has been a very serious crisis in the agricultural industry. It is in respect of a period in which the farmers of this country, fighting against extraordinary odds, have been able to increase output by about two per cent while, at the same time, they have had to suffer a loss in income of between £3 million and £4 million. The gap between urban and rural incomes has now widened a further £50 per annum. This everwidening gap has now reached £5. Some time ago in reply to a Parliamentary Question, it was said that the gap was £2 1s.

It is only fair to put on record that the comparison being made was an unfair one. It was a comparison between people engaged in industry where there were 26 per cent of female workers. It has been shown beyond doubt on the basis of comparison between male industrial workers that there is a gap of £5. At the same time as the farmers had to suffer a loss of income while increasing output, the industrial sector which remained almost stagnant got, I think, increased earnings of approximately six per cent. Is it any wonder that we have had such very serious unrest in the farming industry? It is only fair to say that the farmers have been badly let down. They have been misled, deceived and rejected by Ministers who should have been safeguarding their interests and doing everything possible to advance their welfare.

The root cause of all this trouble is that the Government have no longterm policy for agriculture and they fail to see that no policy can hope to succeed unless it has the full co-operation, confidence and support of the farming community. I believe they fail also to see that it is important to set up effective machinery for consultation and discussion of farm policy and problems. The time is now opportune and I say to the Minister that if he does not set up a worthwhile national agricultural council with an independent secretariat and statistical and other specialist advice— not the type of council he proposes which is one that will be suspect from the beginning — there is little hope for Irish agriculture.

I do not want to say anything in this debate that would make it more difficult to arrive at a sane and satisfactory settlement of the present difficulties and I hope that the settlement when it does come, as inevitably it must, will have built-in safeguards to ensure that we shall have peace and progress and prosperity in agriculture for many years ahead. There is an enormous job to be done. I hope that both the Minister and the farmers will now get down to finding solutions to the many problems that confront the country and particularly the farming community.

Coming to the various items in this Estimate, I see that £2,305,000 is required to meet increases of 2d per gallon in milk prices. There is no reason why this should not have been included in the Budget last year. As we know, it was only secured after the Dáil had been picketed for a considerable time and after many farmers had been fined and threatened with jail sentences. Obviously, the Minister at the time and the Government failed to see the necessity for these increases before we had all this unnecessary and undesirable agitation by the farmers. I trust we shall not have a repetition of this sort of thing.

Similarly the £102,000 for the quality milk payment is something that should have been anticipated if we were not policy-making from day to day in agriculture. It should have been seen that this was a desirable course and we should not have it coming as a result of most undesirable agitation by those in the industry concerned.

That leads me to the £275,000 grant for farrowed sows. This is also a desirable grant but again there is no reason why it should not have been included in the Budget. The signs were there for anybody to see that the pig industry was on the decline but no serious move was made to overcome the difficulties of that industry. If we are to have any worthwhile success in preventing the enormous decline in pig numbers that we had in 1956— the June census showed, I think, a drop of 250,000 pigs — we must get back to the position in which we can supply pigs and carry on the pig industry at the level at which it should be carried on. We shall have to think about something more effective than a £5 per sow farrowing scheme.

The £1,739,000 for the beef, mutton and lamb guarantee scheme, I gather from what the Minister has said, is expected to be offset to the extent of approximately £1 million from the British Government. I know this is based on an average over a period and that the exact amount is not known in advance but is it possible — this is quite a considerable sum when one remembers that it is £1 million in nine months — to have an arrangement whereby we would get an interim payment on the amount due? It occurs to me that it is a great pity that some of this money could not be channelled into better marketing and into reducing the cost of production. It is obvious that there was chaos in meat marketing last year and that nothing was done, and nothing has since been done to come to grips with that problem, one which is most likely to confront us again in the coming year.

In times of scarcity, anybody can sell but in times of growing quantities and over-supply, there is urgent need for a well-established, well-informed and vigorous agency. From the little information at my disposal, I believe there is urgent need for the setting up of a meat marketing board. I had hoped that on this Supplementary Estimate the Minister would give us some idea of how he is thinking in relation to such a board. We had a situation last year when it was obvious that our own exporters were competing against themselves in the same market while there were other areas of the British market which our supplies did not reach at all. As long as we have no centralised marketing organisation, we are bound to have this type of disorderly marketing and have slump conditions and slump prices as a result.

There is no greater deterrent to farmers striving to get full production from their holdings than this business of the price slumping every time they increase numbers or quantities in any particular sector, and no guarantee of an economic market for their output. We all know that cattle have been artificially induced and it is a tragedy that while that was done, not one extra penny was put into the marketing of the produce. We have seen in the case of the Milk Marketing Board that by vigorous, well-informed selling, they have been able to reduce subsidies needed on certain milk products quite considerably, and they have also been able to find new markets for everincreasing quantities of milk products. This should be an example of what can be done if we tackle the question of meat prices and meat selling seriously.

I am not trying to put up an unreasonable argument and I want to quote from the Farmers' Journal of Saturday, 18th February, 1967, which says:

In the second half of 1966 average prices of Irish fat stock were considerably below the levels in Northern Ireland, England and Scotland.

The question of meat marketing seems to be a matter of policy to be discussed on the main Estimate.

The price of meat is relevant to the discussion because we are providing money to support the price of meat.

The establishment of a meat marketing board is a matter of major policy which would properly be discussed on the Minister's main Estimate.

Surely the selling price of meat is what has influenced this Supplementary Estimate to a considerable extent? What I wanted to indicate here was the enormous disparity between the price we have been able to secure for our carcase beef and that which was secured in Britain, Scotland and Northern Ireland.

I can see the Deputy's point, but it does not seem to me to arise relevantly on this Supplementary Estimate; it is a matter of major policy.

It is for £1 million.

There is a lot of money involved. If we are to be silenced——

It is not a matter of silencing the Deputy. It is a matter of trying to keep the debate within the rules of order.

Then am I limited in the comments I can make? May I not comment on the sum required and the reasons for the sum? I would appeal to you to see that this is relevant. This sum arises, to some extent at least, because of bad selling.

It is not my function to comment on how it arises. To see that it arises relevantly on the Estimate is my sole concern.

That is something that should have been included in the main Estimate but was not, and that is the reason it is here now. Am I not allowed to quote the differences in prices secured for Irish beef, for English beef, for Scottish beef and for Northern Ireland beef during the period in question? This expense has arisen during the latter six months of the year.

The Deputy is setting me a very hard problem.

Probably I am, but it is very important. We cannot go into the matter properly unless we can quote the figures to prove what we say.

Surely this has nothing to do with a meat marketing board. The figures Deputy Clinton has available here have no bearing on a meat marketing board; it is simply a comparison between prices.

The very fact that there has not been a proper market for beef is the reason for this Vote.

I am anxious to give Deputy Clinton every opportunity to make his case as clearly and as fully as possible but——

Let me quote these figures and I shall quote no more.

If they refer to a meat marketing board, they are not relevant.

They are relevant to the figures in front of us. With all due respect to the Chair, I think the debate is being curtailed unduly if we are not allowed to go into this important matter.

I must keep the debate within the rules of order. A rule of order has been established. If the discussion does not relate to money in the Estimate——

I can assure you, Sir, that I have no desire to strain the rules of order.

I accept that fully, but I am endeavouring to see that the discussion keeps within the rules of order.

The marketing of dairy produce is mentioned.

That is another matter.

I do not want to be arguing with the Chair, but the questions of cattle and of milk are inseparable.

That is a good point, if I could take it.

I should like clarification on this because I shall be next in line. In the Minister's statement reference is made to the export of carcase beef, and the Minister goes into detail about commodity prices there. Surely the figures which Deputy Clinton is trying to use have a direct bearing on that?

Yes, he is trying to show the Minister has made a mistake.

Perhaps the Ceann Comhairle would allow me to make this quotation. It is a short one. I do not want to be unreasonable, but I think it is relevant.

I cannot allow the Deputy to advocate the setting up of a meat marketing board.

I have finished with the marketing board. I am now indicating what went wrong last year and why, to some extent at least, we have the Supplementary Estimate in front of us.

I shall allow the Deputy to quote the figures.

That is all I am trying to do.

There is a difference between cattle to produce meat and cattle to produce milk.

Perhaps you would give that lesson to some of the Government Ministers, because some of them do not know.

I do not want to extend the class.

This is the quotation from the Farmers' Journal:

In the second half of 1966 average prices of Irish fat stock were considerably below the levels in Northern Ireland, England and Scotland as the following table shows:

Per cwt.

Scotland

192/6

England

173/-

Northern Ireland

150/-

Republic

134/-

The UK prices are based on the official average market prices collected for the purposes of the beef price guarantee scheme; the average weekly subsidy payment is added to this to obtain the farmers' return per cwt.

The Irish prices are the average monthly figures for two- to threeyear-old fat cattle collected at fairs and marts by the Central Statistics Office. These correspond very closely with the average prices advertised by meat factories.

The figures I am quoting are the figures published by the Central Statistics Office and there cannot, therefore, be much wrong with them. This table shows that farmers' receipts for fat cattle in the second half of 1966 were 68/6 per cwt. below the Scottish returns, 39/- below the English and 16/- below Northern Ireland. Were it not for the fact that these figures were collected by official sources, their accuracy might have been questioned. The table gives figures for the various months. In the month of July, England, 188¾; Scotland, 207½; Northern Ireland, 166 and the Republic, 158¾. In the month of August, England 179¾; Scotland, 192¼; Northern Ireland, 154¾ and the Republic 142. In the month of September, England 173½; Scotland, 184; Northern Ireland, 146 and the Republic, 131½. In the month of October, England, 167; Scotland, 180; Northern Ireland, 143 and the Republic, 127. In the month of November, England, 166; Scotland, 183; Northern Ireland, 139 and 120¼ for the Republic. In the month of December, England, 163; Scotland, 189; Northern Ireland, 148 and 123¼ for the Republic.

It is difficult to explain these differences in prices and I should like to hear the Minister explain them because we have on several occasions at Question Time tried to find the justification for these differences. I do not believe they can be justified, short of bad marketing. We have a very efficient meat processing industry. I have no doubt those in charge do their job well. I have no doubt that we have first-class quality cattle. The Scottish cattle which have on every occasion got a premium price are, in the main, store cattle exported and fed for three months in Scotland. There is no reason to believe that the cattle we export are not at least as good in quality as these Scottish cattle. The reason must be that they are being dumped and not marketed as they should be.

Headage grants have been referred to. These were, of course, a rescue operation at a time when the bottom had fallen out of cattle prices. They at least prevented complete disaster in the livestock industry and, from that point of view, this was a worthwhile operation. It is too bad this sort of thing cannot be anticipated and I cannot understand the misleading prospects that were put before our farmers in the early part of last year, in January and again in May, in relation to future prices, etc. An increase of £10 million was forecast in farmers' incomes. In actual fact, farmers' incomes suffered a loss of £3 million to £4 million.

At Question Time, we have raised on occasion the desirability of making some effort to get subsidies back to the farmer. In England they are paid directly to the farmer. I see no reason why that should not be done here. I cannot say how much of these subsidies and support payments finds its way back to the farmer but nothing will convince the farmer, if it is paid to the meat factory, that he is in fact getting it. If it is the intention to go on inducing the farmers to remain in cattle production, we will have to let them see clearly that they are getting fair play and that everything possible is being done to assist them. I know the Minister has expressed the view that he would like to find a way of dealing with this situation and if he is really serious in this, I do not believe it should prove impossible.

With regard to warble fly eradication, I believe we are providing money for something which is actually costing the State nothing. I do not know whether or not that statement is correct but the appropriations-in-aid equal what is spent. This is a worthwhile scheme. It has been very efficiently carried out and results reflect great credit on all concerned. If it is carried out as effectively for the next year or so, there will be no need for any further expenditure under this head. The end result will be an increase in the value of hides and the prevention of loss in liveweight gains.

In relation to the beef quota, on which we get support payments from the British Government, the quota seems to me to have been very in-in adequate. We were told in the discussion on the Free Trade Area Agreement by the Minister for Agriculture at the time that he had got practically everything he had looked for. Obviously he did not look for nearly enough in relation to the beef quota. I have mentioned this before. I mentioned it on television when the present Minister was there and he quoted a ridiculously low figure for exports of meat in the previous year. I knew it was a ridiculous figure at the time but I was not in a position to quote the correct figure. The Minister's figure was deplorably wrong and he was deplorably misinformed. I hope he has since had time to realise that.

I am glad to see this extra expenditure on the Land Project. It is obvious the main expenditure has been on lime and fertilisers. That is, in fact, section B of the Land Project, working as it should work, exclusive of drainage. This is a long-term way of getting land fertilised. It should be encouraged because there has been a very sharp drop in fertiliser usage during the past year. That is serious and anything that helps to correct it is to be welcomed.

There is an item of £30,000 for the Faculty of Veterinary Medicine in University College and an item of £16,000 for the Trinity College School of Veterinary Medicine. The only comment I should like to make here is that the sooner these two amalgamate the better it will be for all concerned. In State subsidy alone it is now costing approximately £15,000 per graduate in Trinity College. Surely that is a ridiculous situation, all the more ridiculous when we remember that Trinity College never wanted a Faculty of Veterinary Medicine. It arose out of the previous Fianna Fáil Taoiseach looking into his heart and deciding this would be a good thing for Trinity. Something should now be done to rectify the situation and I hope something will be done before we are very much older. This is a ridiculous waste of money. It is an expenditure that cannot be justified on any rational grounds.

There is a sum here for the mountain sheep subsidy scheme of £47,000. This is a scheme with which there has been an enormous amount of dissatisfaction. I have heard it discussed at length at various farmers' meetings, county committees of agriculture and the General Council of County Committees of Agriculture and being severely criticised. I was glad therefore to hear the Minister say that in the light of experience of the operation of the scheme, he is having another look at it and also in the light of the advice he has got from various sources about it. It is a good scheme as far as it goes but it obviously needs improvement and the sooner it is gone into the better for everybody concerned.

The trouble about all these moneys which we are providing today is that they have already been spent and they add nothing to the income of the farmers. I wish they did but they do not. This is money they have already been receiving and we are just making provision for it. It is deplorable, at a time when the Minister is coming in here to look for extra money, that at the same time he should be squandering — and I call it nothing but squandering — the taxpayers' money on full page advertisements in the Sunday newspapers for no other purpose than to drive a bigger wedge between the urban and rural population. In my view, this is disgraceful Fianna Fáil propaganda for which the taxpayers are paying, and it has been put in the newspapers under the guise of educating the people in regard to the aids being provided for agriculture. That advertisement cost more than £1,000.

It worked.

I am sure the papers hate to see money being spent in that way, even though they have to operate as commercial concerns.

There is nothing in the Supplementary Estimate referring to this matter, which would appear to be relevant on the main Estimate.

There is an awful lot in the advertisement which is relevant to the Estimate. This is great propaganda for Fianna Fáil, but it is very destructive propaganda for the country and the taxpayers are being called upon to foot the bill. We have reached a deplorable stage when the Minister, who should be defending the farmers and interested in promoting their welfare, should go to that extent and use the taxpayers' money to injure the farmers, because that is what he has done on this occasion.

First of all, I want to say how glad we all are that some grain of sense seems to be coming into the dispute between the NFA and the Government. We hope that the discussions will take place soon and that once and for all the problem which has racked this country for the past five or six months will be settled. When the NIEC was being formed, we on the Labour benches protested that agriculture should be represented on it, but the then Taoiseach said that he felt they should have a separate body of their own. We considered that in view of the fact that over 70 per cent of our exports came from agriculture, it was only logical that they should be included on that body, particularly as it was supposed to be a national industrial economic council. We could not understand how you could plan for the country without including the major industry on that body. However, the decision was taken to leave them out, and now apparently it has been decided to set up a separate council for them.

May I add my voice to the voices of those who have already spoken about this matter and say that this is a far bigger problem than is realised and one which if it is properly handled, could result in peace for a very long time between the agricultural community and the Government, no matter what that Government may be. There should be a new look at the whole set-up of the council. The Minister will make his own decision——

May I say a word? The Deputy does understand that we will have representation on the NIEC?

From the Agricultural Council?

Not necessarily only——

I am glad there has been some new thinking.

It is not a question of new thinking.

This has been indicated but it has not been indicated how these people will be selected.

The number that will be required and so on has not yet been worked out and the Deputy will appreciate that I cannot say at this stage——

The Minister is talking about the existing NIEC and that it is proposed to have agriculture represented directly on it?

That is right.

Not from the Council?

A representative from the new Council but there should be and will be other representation.

These are the questions which remain to be answered.

Deputy Clinton knows where the questions come from.

I would like to suggest to the Minister, as far as the NIEC is concerned, that he does not load it with political representatives because——

You want trade union representatives?

The Minister has refused to give the trade unions representation on the Agricultural Council.

Do not be tempting me to do it again.

The Minister might be inclined to find berths on the NIEC for some of the people who——

The Minister cannot be right; is that not the moral?

On one occasion the Minister was found to be right. That is the law of averages.

There is nothing in the Supplementary Estimate about the setting up of a national council.

I appreciate that. However, I have succeeded in making my point.

I was trying to help the Deputy.

I know. That is one of the things which the Minister has always done since I came into the House.

Deputy Clinton has dealt at length with the amount of money required to finance the exports of beef last year. I should like to point out that unfortunately at the time the Free Trade Area Agreement with Britain was being discussed here, the Fine Gael Party did not see certain aspects which they now can see. If they had, perhaps the vote would have been different on that famous night of 6th January, 1966. I am glad to see that they have now come around to our point of view. When the Minister said that (a) there would be an increase in the first year, from July to 31st March, of £10 million in the income of the farmers, (b) that cattle prices would go up from £5 to £7 a head and (c) that he had got all he asked for from the British Government, then on those three points the Minister could not have been much further wrong. However, we have reached the stage where we have to pay for it.

It appears rather odd that while the British are paying a certain amount of subsidy in order to keep up the supply the Irish taxpayer has to pay a greater amount in subsidy than the British are paying; otherwise the floor would fall from under the cattle and carcase beef price completely. The Minister must be aware that his predecessor — not his immediate predecessor but the Minister before him — was the author of most of the troubles of the cattle industry in the past year. The calved heifer subsidy is at the root of all this trouble. The country is swarming with cattle and the Minister must be aware of this. You could not possibly get top price for most of these cattle because they are very poor class cattle. We cannot blame the Minister for taking this decision on the calved heifer subsidy, but the decision was taken by the Government.

That must be the position in the Deputy's county.

I would not like to go to Wexford. I saw a lot of queer things down there. The calved heifer subsidy upset the balance completely and people who were greedy rushed in. The Minister was very definite a few weeks ago about the horrible crime it was to use scrub bulls to increase the herds. The use of scrub bulls reduced the standard of our cattle and absolutely no attempt was made by the Department to ensure that these low class animals would not be produced. In fact, they have been produced and they are there for everyone to see, and will be there, in my opinion, for many years. As a matter of fact, a farmer who was very proud of his cattle herd told me recently that he considers that the work of 30 years of the Department of Agriculture was ruined in the course of about 12 months. I am inclined to agree with him.

Rubbish. I have personal experience. I sell cattle at marts once a week and I know all about this.

I am glad to hear the Deputy making a speech anyway.

The Deputy is talking about something he knows nothing about.

Perhaps Deputy Allen would get on his feet and make a speech.

I never heard him except when he came in here and made stupid comments out of the corner of his mouth. The only comments I have heard from him so far have been extremely stupid. If he gets on his feet, we will listen to him.

Deputy Tully is in possession.

I have had practical experience.

Order. Deputy Tully, without interruption.

To be succeeded by Deputy Allen on agriculture.

The whole question of agriculture is one which must be dealt with seriously by the Government. We have here a factual statement from the Minister. He gives us the facts as he sees them now, but some of these facts were obvious to most interested people before the last Budget was framed. For some reason which we can all recognise, sums of money which could and should have been included. in last year's Budget were not included. I would be interested to know what happened with regard to one sum of money which was included, and what is likely to happen now. To the surprise of most of us, a sum of money amounting to around £2½ million was provided for the calved heifer subsidy in the Budget of the current year. Everyone who knew the situation appreciated that that sum would not be taken up, that only a fraction of it would be taken up. I have a question down to the Minister which will give us that information. Perhaps the Minister will tell us how much of this sum has been taken up, and in what way it is proposed to distribute the amount remaining. That is a fair question.

The export of butter and the necessary supports from the export of butter are mentioned in the Minister's statement. We have very successful exports of milk products other than butter. Why is it that we do not seem to try to establish more of that type of industry? Why is it that although we can sell without subsidy quite a number of these products — cheese, milk powders and so on — we seem to be so chary about giving any assistance to industrialists who are attempting to set up this type of industry? Last year a group of dairy farmers came together and attempted to set up a milk processing factory for the purpose of producing milk powder. A deputation was received by the Government. There were discussions on a number of occasions but over the years during which discussions took place very little encouragement was given. There was no money available and eventually the scheme was set on one side, and I doubt if it will ever see the light of day again. It is rather a pity that this type of thing should happen, because I think it is the only answer to the problem of increasing milk products.

Recently there was a statement by a gentleman who felt he would be able to extend the supply or the sale of butter because of a contact he had in a place called Kuwait. He was very excited about this. He thought he would be doing a great job if he could get substantial sales of butter to Kuwait. So far as I know the subsidy for the sale of butter in Kuwait is 3/8 in the pound. This did not seem to strike the gentleman who was carrying out these negotiations unofficially. The Department did not know about it, and I am sure they were prepared to shoot him as soon as they found out about it.

It does not seem to have been realised that there is a bigger market for our agricultural exports in Britain. There are portions of Britain which have never been touched in this regard. There are numerous places in Britain where no effort has been made to sell Irish produce, good, bad or indifferent. We seem anxious to find markets in East Germany, in West Germany, in Italy, and such places, but we do not seem to be anxious to try to find markets in places much nearer home. I wonder why the Department do not try to find the markets on their very doorstep. This is another example of what is happening in the tourist industry where we seem to be looking all over the world for tourists but we will not go into the villages and towns in Britain where tourists can be picked up. We will not go into the villages and towns in Britain where we could export agricultural produce. This is a matter which should get much more attention from the Minister and from his Department.

There was a brief reference to the Land Project and to the extra subsidy on lime. While this is a very good idea, it is something which requires a lot of tightening up, because we have some people engaged in that business who apparently have decided that the old system under which certain people are supposed to become very rich in a hurry should be carried on. Yesterday I saw a docket. Someone was supplied with six tons of stone and signed for six tons of lime. Someone else got 2½ tons of lime and he signed for six on one docket and 2½ on another. That sort of nonsense should not be allowed. The Minister's inspectors should ensure that that type of practice is stopped. It is simply robbing the Exchequer and robbing the taxpayer.

If someone wants to do land drainage, I understand that the period between making the application and having the inspection carried out— not until he is paid — is 12 months. Deciding to drain his land, he goes to the local office and signs all the necessary forms. He sits back and 12 months later an inspector comes out to inspect the land to decide whether or not he will get a grant. It would not have been any harm at all if there had been some money included in this Supplementary Estimate for the provision of extra inspectors so that this work could be done, as it was intended to be done, as soon as application is made. One man I spoke to informed me he was prepared to do the work and, even if he had to wait over a period, he had no objection; but he started to do the work and when the inspector arrived, he told him: "We will not pay you anything for it". Therefore, the poor man was left in the position that he had to tell all his neighbours: "For God's sake, if you are doing any land drainage work, do not touch it until the inspector comes along, even if it is in 12 months or 18 months time".

Deputy Coughlan, who unfortunately is not with us, had a very interesting comment to make about the closing of the bacon factory in his area. It has been alleged in this House that the only reason the shortage of pigs in the Republic has not become obvious very much earlier is the wholesale smuggling of pigs across the Border. The Minister knows I live fairly close to the Border——

The Minister denies they ever came in.

——and I go over and back fairly often. It is an extraordinary thing that again and again, not small lorries with two or three pigs, but lorry loads of pigs have been seized.

Lorry and trailer.

And it does not seem to have come to the notice of the Department of Agriculture. There is another racket quite openly talked about and the Department of Agriculture do not appear to know anything about it, that is, the driving of herds of up to 200 pigs from the North in here. This is alleged; I believe there is an awful lot of truth in it, and the reason it has been ignored is that the Department must know that because of the shortage of pigs here, this would have blown up much earlier, but they were leaving the position to rectify itself. The sow subsidy now will help but, unfortunately, it does not seem to have been publicised as widely as it might be. I am hoping, for everybody's sake, it will be a success. It is too bad that we find factories closing down completely because they cannot get the pigs they require.

There is something else I should like to mention in passing. I do not know what way bacon is being sold in Britain; I do not know how Irish bacon is being marketed. I will say this, that if the standard of the bacon being sold in Britain is not much higher than the standard of so-called grade A bacon being sold in this country, it is no wonder we are not getting a grip on the British market.

There is no grade A here.

Somebody said recently that when all the pigs go into the factory, no matter what their grade, they all come out grade A. It does appear to be true because I have not seen anything anywhere except bacon which is graded as top-class, for which one is charged top price, and it is darned poor stuff. It does not compare at all with the type of bacon which could be bought here a couple of years ago.

And this week they are demanding £30 a ton more for it.

I said at the beginning I would not hold up the proceedings because none of us wants to be here all night but, while we agree the money the Minister is seeking is necessary, we believe that the attitude of the Department towards the agricultural industry must be changed. We believe that unless that change is made, and made quickly, we will have more trouble on our hands than this House will be able to deal with.

I started by saying how glad I was an effort is being made to try to patch up the differences between the farmers and the Government. I hope it will be successful, but I shall conclude by saying, as Deputy Clinton said earlier, the creamery milk suppliers' dispute last year proved that you will gain nothing by trying to put people in gaol, put a whole community in goal because they were looking for what they considered to be a fair price for their produce. I would appeal to the Government to show some good sense and realise that without the agricultural community, this country cannot survive.

I should like to start where Deputy James Tully left off, that is to say, I hope the negotiations between the NFA and the Minister will prove very successful. Of course, what all the Opposition speakers say is that this is between the farmers and the Minister, but at the moment this is between the NFA and the Minister, because there are other farming organisations with different views. I have always been in favour of one organisation for the farmers in general. The Minister has moved that a supplementary sum not exceeding £3,167,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending 31st March, 1967. This, of course, brings the total net expenditure from the Vote for Agriculture to £38,476,000, which is a good sign in itself that the Government have the interests of the agricultural community at heart and are anxious to see to their needs, regardless of what people may say from time to time.

I listened for some time to Opposition speakers discussing the calved heifer scheme and the money provided for subsidisation of milk, et cetera. The calved heifer scheme was started to increase our cow numbers and it has succeeded in doing so, to a large degree. With the extra butter allocation we got in the past few days, the figure is now 28,000 tons, but we would not be able to fulfil that obligation if we had not got the extra cows to produce the milk. There is more room for improvement and we can expect to have a lot more milk within the next few years because, as we all know, the bovine tuberculosis scheme greatly upset the building up of milk herds. Somebody said to me recently: “You have many cows alive now just because they passed the test.” Now that the bovine tuberculosis scheme has gone through, the culling of herds will start once again and we can confidently hope that the average milk yield per cow will go up henceforward.

I notice also in the Minister's speech that it is assumed that some 40 per cent of the milk delivered to creameries will receive the quality bonus, that extra money is to be available for it, and that the special quality bonus will be increased from 1d to 2d per gallon as from 1st April next. That extra 1d is very welcome because there were many people who really did not gain much by being paid a 1d per gallon. The small farmer would not gain much. He would have to waste a lot of good water and it might not be too convenient for him. If the price goes up another penny, it will be worthwhile. On that matter, I suggest that the Minister should make special recommendations to the ACC or some other body to organise a system of grants to provide the type of coolers these people need. It would result in the production of high quality milk and it is no good talking about anything else.

The debate touched on the subject of pig rearing and about the factories closing, about smuggling and other matters. This is a repetition of the old cycle again where you have X pigs one year and then they go up in numbers until a peak is reached every four years. Last year fewer pigs were killed in the factories than in the previous year. The Minister brought in the sow scheme and I am reliably informed by many farmers that it is serving a good purpose.

On this question of the factories closing, I am inclined to wonder what happens when there are too many pigs. I do not think there is much mercy for the farmers who will not get a good trade when there are too many pigs. Until we have some sort of centralised buying system one way or another we shall not get very far. A new factor has entered the pig business — the matter of feeding. You have the traditional man who goes out and buys his pigmeal and you have the man who uses a lot of whey. The man who feeds whey has a great advantage over the man who goes out to buy his pigmeal. It takes 5 lbs. to 6 lbs of balanced pigmeal per pig per day and that costs a lot of money, whereas the man with the whey can feed three or four gallons a day and at most he has to pay a farthing a gallon to have it delivered. He is saving roughly 3 lbs of pigmeal per day and that has been worked out, in the feed of a pig for ten weeks, at roughly £3 for fattening a pig. In the creamery areas especially, which are more advanced in this matter, the man feeding the whey has a big advantage. There is no doubt that the pig trade is booming at the moment. A man can get anything in the region of £40 for the sow in young. The trade is safe enough for this year.

The Minister has been asked to provide some help for the mountain sheep farmers. They are men who have a hard way of life, a very limited way depending an awful lot on their sheep. The Government, in the past year, brought in a scheme whereby 10/- per head was paid on Blackface Mountain and Cheviot wether lambs. There are suggestions that the scheme did not work so well in its first year and I was glad to hear that the Minister is having the scheme reviewed in the light of suggestions gained from various sources among the sheep farmers. I am glad to see that the Minister has been in contact with many sheep organisations throughout the country, many of whom have put their views to him. The main crib is that last year too many of those lambs were put on the market at the one time and that little was gained out of the 10/- per head because of a flush of these lambs at the one period. However, the Minister is to review it. It is hard to build up a perfect scheme but it is well for us to realise that the hill farmer has a very hard way of life and that there is a danger the young generation may not stay in the hills where life is hard and arduous.

Statistics on the warble fly eradication scheme show that the level of infestation, which had ranged from 60 per cent to 70 per cent, dropped to 3 per cent after the 1965 campaign and Irish cattle arriving in England in 1956 showed only 8 per cent warble infestation. Among the cattle trade it has been found that the treatment is not 100 per cent effective. However, the Minister has stated that any farmer in whose case the treatment is not 100 per cent effective can have his cattle treated and a certificate given free of charge. This is something the general public are not well aware of and I ask the Minister to publicise this more widely, especially in marts where it is quite easy to post advertisements on mart walls where every farmer will easily see them. Then there will not be any excuse for not having animals treated effectively against warble fly infestation. I have no pity for a person who tries to dodge this scheme. Though there might be 99 persons out of 100 who avail of the scheme effectively, one person might be too smart and dodge the scheme.

There has been talk about the spread of foot and mouth disease. This is something the Department must always keep a keen eye on and take strict measures, where necessary. We realise at least that Ireland is known abroad as a disease free country. That counts for a lot when we are in the export business. I do not intend to delay the House for very long but I must say I was amused by Deputy Clinton. He said that our meat processing plants were efficient and that we have good quality cattle. I am glad to see that we have converted the Deputy from his view that the calved heifer subsidy scheme resulted in inferior cattle.

I did not quite hear the Deputy.

I am glad to hear evidence of the Deputy's conversion from the idea that the calved heifer scheme gave us inferior cattle. I was glad to hear Deputy Clinton say we have very good quality cattle. I hope that during the past twelve months we will have converted Deputy Tully to the idea that our cattle are good quality.

We have a sprinkling of very poor types after Deputy Smith's heifer scheme.

There are scrub bulls. We must realise when considering this question that a great proportion of our farmers have their cows inseminated through the AI stations. A man might have 20 cows and have 18 of them inseminated. He might never see the two or three others coming in heat and he then picks up a scrub bull to make sure they are in calf. He is the man responsible and I doubt if the number of scrub bulls is very large.

It is all a load of bull. Paddy Smith is the man responsible.

Deputy Clinton referred to the Department's advertisements in the Sunday newspapers this week and said it was Fianna Fáil propaganda. The facts were given in those advertisements, to the Deputy's discomfort and that of his Party, who were spreading false propaganda.

At a cost of several thousand pounds.

It is the Deputy who is spreading false propaganda.

How much will be received by the farmer?

If the Deputy were a farmer, he would know all about it.

You are a farmer.

Practical farmers in my part of the country do not ask such silly questions. Next time the Deputy meets a practical farmer he can ask him. I shall conclude by wishing the Minister every success in his discussions with the NFA which, I hope, will result in a peaceful solution.

This Supplementary Estimate could really be regarded as a mopping-up operation to cover the failure of the Department, the Minister for Agriculture and his advisers to see into the future with regard to agricultural policy. There are three main portions in this Estimate. There is £1 million for the eradication of bovine TB. There is also the beef, mutton and lamb export guarantee subsidy, which is a sizeable sum. Before I go on to deal with that, there is one portion of this Supplementary Estimate on which I would like clarification. I do not see anything in the Minister's opening speech about it. There is a temporary scheme of payments on fat cattle exported for immediate slaughter of £660,000. Am I to take it that we are paying people to export fat cattle rather than kill them and process them in this country? I cannot take any other interpretation from that.

It seems to me that it is a sort of moonlight madness that we should pay people to export cattle rather than process them here. When the Trade Agreement was made between the present Government, or rather the previous Government headed by Deputy Lemass — actually it is the same Government under different colours — and the British Labour Government, they did not look for a big enough quota for the export of processed meat and they are now in the position of trying to level that off by encouraging people to fatten cattle rather than export them as stores. Then, again, if you look into the Estimate, you find that there is £1 million for the eradication of bovine TB. This still means that we are spending very big sums of money to get rid of bovine TB here on the understanding — this was the original understanding on the adoption of this scheme — that we could export live cattle to Britain and increase our store market. I personally do not agree with that.

Many people here are of the opinion that success in agriculture depends on the export of store cattle and that the more store cattle we export the better it is for the farming community as a whole. That may well be from the point of view of a short term policy. Against that they are excluded from exporting as much store cattle as they would wish because of the Trade Agreement we made with the British Government. Under this Agreement, the British Government were to take 628,000 stores within the first 12 months of that Agreement.

That agreement started on 1st July, 1966, and the first year would end at the end of June, 1967. I have some very illuminating figures here. Those figures were derived as the result of a question at Westminster. I have a question down this afternoon in which the Irish Government will have an opportunity of confirming that their figures are the same as the British Government's figures and that a love affair is still going on between the Government here and the British Labour Government. The figures I have are certainly very illuminating in regard to the store trade. This was supposed to expand and increase. According to the former Minister for Agriculture there was supposed to be a sizeable increase per head in relation to the store cattle we exported to the United Kingdom. The figure I have from July, 1966, to December, 1966, which is the first six operative months of this agreement, in which the British were to take 628,000 store cattle from us, is 179,700 cattle. So much for the Agreement. Does that not prove the fact that we made the mistake of relying almost in toto on the British to take all our store cattle from us? That is one of the reasons we find ourselves in such difficulties today with regard to sales, prices and so on.

Deputies may come in here and say that is all right and that it will be better for the future. The figures I have given do not point to that. I will go back now to another six months. The figures show that from January, 1966, to June, 1966, the six months prior to the operation of the Trade Agreement the export of store cattle then was 216,157. I invite the Minister to deduct the figures and he will find that there is a great difference. If we look at the six months before that we find that the figure was 199,480. Therefore, 12 months ago we were exporting 20,000 more store cattle than we are exporting today.

Is it any wonder that there are difficulties in agriculture today? Is it any wonder that the farmers are picketing when you have that state of affairs? They were promised the sun, moon and stars in this Agreement. As far as I can see the whole thing is a complete fiasco. Now let us look at the prices. The average price per cwt. was 67.7/during the six months in which this Agreement is operative. During the six months prior to it, the price was 68.3/- so there is a difference in the price of cattle since the treaty became operative. During the six months prior to this, the price was 73/-. Therefore, one must come to the inescapable conclusion that in respect of one of the things this Agreement was expected to do, that is, to give a guaranteed price and a market for our cattle, it has fallen down.

Perhaps the British are taking fewer cattle than they were taking before. Perhaps the Minister will explain this to us. He certainly has not explained it in his opening speech. He said that one of the difficulties farmers had to contend with was that they could not export their cattle into the European Economic Community on account of the high tariffs there. That is understandable.

I should like to go further into this Agreement. As I said at the beginning, this Supplementary Estimate is a mopping-up arrangement for the failure of that Agreement and nothing else. The Agreement has failed and that is the reason we have all this trouble with regard to agriculture in Ireland today. It is better for the Government to accept that and say it. If they did that, they might regain the confidence of the people. They are not doing anything about giving the farmers the decent standard of living to which they are entitled. Under this Trade Agreement, we were supposed to export 25,000 tons of carcase beef in 12 months. Some of the Deputies opposite criticised the Minister because of that. This shows further mismanagement on the part of this Government and this Supplementary Estimate is just a mopping-up operation. During the six months in which the Trade Agreement has been operative, we exported to the United Kingdom 25,320 tons of carcase beef. In other words, we exported our full quota in that period. What are we to do for the remaining six months of the year? Does this mean that the export of stores is falling for one reason or another? It may have something to do with whether the British are trading elsewhere. We do not know what it is. It is a matter for the Minister to deal with. What are we to do for the remaining six months of this year?

We are subsidising the export of fat cattle for immediate slaughter to the tune of £660,000 because we cannot get processed beef into the British market. This shows a total failure on the part of the Government and it also shows total mismanagement with regard to the export of livestock to Britain. We are spending £1 million on the eradication of bovine TB. We are going to have our cattle TB free. The British have repeatedly said: "If you eradicate bovine TB it is absolutely assured that the price will go up and that you will have an unlimited export of cattle." They are the figures. The fact remains they are not taking the cattle. The only thing I can see is that this is a stopgap operation to enable us in some way to bolster up the farmers to carry on by subsidisation. In other words, we are subsidising exports to the British market, a market which was supposed to give us all the benefits in return for which we gave them benefits and they were to give us a full opening, an unlimited opening, for agricultural products.

The answer is the Supplementary Estimate today. The situation has been totally misjudged. Here is a new Minister for Agriculture coming in who has certainly had a very stormy period in the short time he has been in office. I do not think he can be exonerated from blame for what happened. However, one is always glad to see the sweet light of reason and it looks as if there is a possibility of better relations now. However, the Minister should bear those facts in mind.

I do not see how we can go on without every Minister for Agriculture coming in here looking for larger and larger subsidies to bolster up a market which is virtually of no value to anybody. It is a known fact that the British in the past two, three or four years have been buying cattle from us, killing and processing them, and getting all the benefit from it. Further than that, they do not even keep them but export them elsewhere to rectify their own balance of payments. I propose to the House that the policy of this Government is to export raw materials. This is proven by those figures. Provided the love affair is still continuing between the Government and the British Government, I presume the figures I get this afternoon will be the same as the ones I got from Westminster. It has been proved from that that our policy is wrong. We have been concentrating on offering to the British and allowing them to buy from us everything they want at their own time and at their own price. That is not economic for us. Further than that, the very thing the Government hoped to gain — I did not believe in it — a large increase in the export of stores, has proved to be a total and utter failure. I am perfectly justified in describing this Supplementary Estimate as a mopping-up operation to clean up the mess that has been created in the agricultural field.

It is absolutely fundamental that we should have a sound agriculture. With regard to the Minister's statement that we are almost debarred by the levies from exporting to the EEC, it must be borne in mind that the levy at the moment fixed on the frontier of the EEC is as high as it will ever be and is unlikely to remain at that level. It was fixed for the specific purpose that when they went to negotiate on the World Trade Agreement under the Kennedy Round there was to be a cut of 50 per cent in the tariffs. That is a general principle of the Kennedy Round. It is quite obvious from the EEC point of view that if they go in with a 40 per cent tariff this year, it will be cut to 20 per cent.

For that reason I say to the Minister that he should not sit on the fence as he is doing now. He should not rely on the British market but should look for markets elsewhere. He will not then have to come to the House looking for these enormous Supplementary Estimates to bolster up the agricultural economy which is fundamentally unsound and perhaps more unsound today than it has been for a great many years.

I should like to refer also to the Land Project. The more generous the contribution given to the Land Project and the more rapid the development and acceptance of schemes, the more beneficial it will be to the country as a whole. It is money spent on subsidisation but it is for the purpose of increasing production. I do not think the grants today for land projects are realistic. There is very little increase over and above the grants of some years ago. The Minister must accept the fact that charges have gone up enormously. The land reclamation people are very often not anxious to go on with jobs because they do not find them economic. They have to pay a higher rate of wages, the cost of machinery is very much greater and the charge on the farmer himself is considerable. He has every kind of overhead cost as well. I feel that in this Supplementary Estimate the Government are not giving enough to the person who has to be responsible ultimately for seeing the job is properly done, over and above what he got a few years ago.

With regard to the World Food Aid Programme, I am very glad the Irish Government have seen fit to increase our contribution. We are estimated to be one of the best fed nations in the world. The reason for that is probably that we are an agricultural country and not able to sell our products on the markets with which we have agreements and for that reason we feed ourselves better than anybody else. The House should know that today there is almost a calamitous food situation in the world. There are many millions of people in many parts of the world who are literally dying of starvation.

I cannot see anything relating to the Food Aid Programme in the Supplementary Estimate.

The programme is for the purpose of alleviating starvation in the world. I shall not enlarge on this subject. After criticising the Government considerably, you will be happy, Sir, that I am giving them a little meed of praise at the end. I say they are doing the right thing in doing that. I go further and say they could have been more generous. It is no satisfaction to me, to any Deputy or to any Irish citizen to know that there are people all over the world dying of starvation. Although we are not a wealthy nation, we have played our part in the international arena. We are making this contribution and, having criticised the Government strongly on their agricultural policy, or rather, their total lack of agricultural policy and total lack of judgment of the future of the situation. I congratulate them on doing something to alleviate world hunger and starvation.

I propose to speak on a few points of the Minister's Supplementary Estimate but first of all, I should like to refer to my colleague, Deputy Esmonde. He says he is a widely travelled Deputy and advises the Government to look for markets for our cattle outside the British market. I have listened to the Fine Gael shadow Minister for Agriculture, a speaker from the Labour benches and then my colleague, Deputy Esmonde, and I have not heard one constructive suggestion as to where the Government should go to look for an export market for our cattle.

The Minister said that one of our main problems with regard to the export of cattle last year was the high protective tariffs within the EEC countries and this affected not alone our exports but the export of fat cattle from England also. The two figures total some 400,000 head of cattle. This was the main factor in the drop in cattle prices last year and the drop in the number being exported. Where the Government are to try to get an export market outside that, I do not know. I was hoping to hear from Deputy Esmonde where we should go but he did not make any suggestion. Perhaps at a later date he will enlighten us.

I would like to enlighten Deputy Allen on any subject.

I should have liked to have heard remarks to this effect from Deputy Esmonde but I heard none.

There are one or two comments I should like to make in connection with cattle prices. We have had Opposition speakers for some considerable time talking about the drop in cattle prices. One would think that calves at £20 a head—and Deputy L'Estrange will not disagree with me —were completely uneconomic and that you could not buy them at £20 and make any profit.

I saw them going at £25 per bull calf.

You could not make money on that. If you were a practical farmer, you could not agree with that.

I know; the people were given that price.

There has been a lot of discussion here about a meat marketing board. I would feel—and this is a personal opinion—that possibly a meat marketing board would be more desirable for promoting sales. That is all I can say on that because I will probably be ruled out of order if I elaborate on it.

There are one or two items in the Minister's Estimate in connection with the £5 paid for each farrowed sow up to a maximum of five in each herd. I would love to know the approximate cost per sow to administer this scheme. I have knowledge of meetings in my own county with a senior official of the Department of Agriculture who came down to determine whether a sow with one bonham should get a grant or not. This is a shocking state of affairs. It happened that the man stayed overnight and I am sure that it cost £10-£15 to determine whether a sow with one bonham should get a grant of £5.

Not with the £52 million.

In connection with the sheep subsidy scheme, I have had personal experience of that. I feel that 10/- for Blackface wether lambs is very desirable. It helps in many ways in getting the wether lambs off the mountains. I have strong feelings in regard to the Cheviot ewe scheme. I was speaking to mountain farmers last year and very few of them got this £1. It was the lowland men who got the £1 subsidy in connection with the Cheviot ewe scheme. The mountain farmers got none of it. It was promoted for them and these farmers feel they could not possibly keep this type of sheep. I have experience in Wicklow of the Cheviot type of sheep. It is felt there that no type will thrive on the mountains except the Cheviot ewe.

I should like the Minister to have a look at this and try to make alternative arrangements. It would be most desirable to bring in the Cheviot ewe breed. It would be very desirable to get the £1 and have the most unproductive type of sheep removed off the land in this way.

With regard to the warble fly scheme, I am glad to hear what the Minister says. In my county there are a number of cases of men who did not carry out the warble fly scheme. They are now in a position to have their cattle treated.

With regard to the Land Project, when I listen to Opposition speakers it makes my blood boil. They were the instigators of Section B. They were responsible for the present Government having to do away with it. There is a case in my own county of a very prominent Fine Gael man— I shall not mention any name—getting £480 per acre for removing rock. He got £28,000 on a Land Project scheme which is a great scandal in my county. Then, they come in here and talk about having Section B of the scheme re-introduced. Were it not for some of their own colleagues making a fortune out of it, possibly this would not have taken place.

There are one or two other things I should like to mention in connection with this scheme. The amount of land the Department's inspectors have mapped out and the amount drained is considerable. I also feel the Department should not pay the full grant in one go. They should pay it over a five year period because in many cases where Land Project work is carried on, if the land is not maintained afterwards, it reverts to its former state, if not to a worse state. A certain amount of the grant should be kept over for a few years to make sure that drains are kept open because I saw lands becoming worse after the drainage scheme than they were before.

I wish the Minister every success in his negotiations with the NFA and I hope NFA members will be nominated to sit on the Agricultural Council. Then, we may get agriculture off to where it should be. This Party have always stood behind the small farmer and we are going to stay there and we will support the small farmer as we always have. I wish the Minister every success.

Personally, I am very glad to see the difficulty between the Government and the farmers about to be settled. I am sure that every Deputy independently feels the very same. We all realise the truth of an old Irish proverb which says: "I never knew a good man to be reformed by a spell of imprisonment; it makes a good man bad and a bad man worse." It is a pity the Government, and particularly the Minister for Justice, did not realise that before putting these unfortunate farmers into gaol. When one looks and examines figures of the income of the Irish farmer over the past two years, one certainly is inclined to agree that he has a grievance. Agricultural output over the past year has increased by two per cent and the income has reduced by £3 million to £4 million. Now, that is not a great achievement for the farmers themselves. Their conscience must annoy them to think that they are increasing their output by two per cent and that their income is reduced by £3 million to £4 million. Far be it from me to drive a wedge between the urban dweller and the agricultural community but when we look at the position of the urban dweller over the past 12 months, we find that his income has increased by six per cent while his output has remained static.

It may be all right to talk about the National Agricultural Council but we must realise, and the farmers have displayed, that, over the past few years, there is reason for a certain amount of uneasiness there. Only 12 months ago, we had the NFA withholding rates. Some time last year, we had the ICMSA picketing outside Leinster House. Again, over the past few months, we had the NFA looking for an increase in their income. I do not think this Government can close their eyes to that situation.

It is strange that this whole uneasiness has crept in since the 1966 Free Trade Area Agreement with Britain. If we examine the figures paid for our cattle on the Irish market, mark you, it is justified. From July, 1965, to December, 1965, the average price per head of cattle exported to Britain was £73—that was six months prior to the Trade Agreement. From January, 1966, to June, 1966, the average price per head of cattle exported to Britain —in the first six months of the Trade Agreement—was £68.3. From July, 1966, to December, 1966, the average price per head of cattle exported to Britain was £67.3—that was for the second six months of the Trade Agreement. One can feel quite satisfied that the farming community have a genuine grievance.

The strange thing about headage that was paid on the price of cattle when the bottom completely fell out of the cattle market is that in fairs and marts such as those at Elphin and Roscommon town the average farmer did not get the advantage of the headage. From the day the headage was paid until the day it ended, the price of cattle in these marts or fairs increased. I do not know if it was the middleman or the exporter or who it was who got the headage but certainly it did not go directly into the pocket of the farmer.

We can say the same about the mountain sheep headage which was paid last year for the first time. As a matter of fact, sheep were about 10/to 15/- per head cheaper last year than in the previous year, despite the fact that 10/- headage was being paid. On that note, I am glad to know that the Minister is having another look at this mountain sheep scheme because, again, there seems to be a certain grievance with the sheep producers in these areas about it and I hope that the scheme, when it is operated next year, will have some changes to the advantage of the farmer.

It is all right for us to say that reference has been made to the heifer scheme but everybody in this House and every farmer in the country knows that there was an over-production of cattle brought about by the heifer scheme and that there was no market in which to sell them when they were produced. That was the tremendous harm that was done to the agricultural community.

I should like to make reference to the warble fly scheme. I see a figure of £30,500 in the Supplementary Estimate in that respect. If my information is correct, and I think it is reasonably correct, the societies operating this scheme are making sufficient profit to pay for it the whole way through. Not alone are they making sufficient profit to pay for it but they are also making sufficient profit to give a substantial reduction to the farmer on the 3/- per head he is paying. I have figures of the profit one society has made for the current year and, mark you, if you heard that profit, you would be rather surprised to see a figure of £30,500 in the Supplementary Estimate for this purpose.

I agree with a number of previous speakers who have said that we feel that Land Project grants should be increased and increased substantially. Even over the past few months, without talking about the last year, the price of field drainage pipes has increased substantially; the farmer's wage bill has increased; machinery costs have increased because whether it be hired or owned, the cost of running it has substantially increased and the price of artificial manures has increased. All of these increases clearly indicate that the Minister will have to make up his mind to give an increased grant under the Land Project.

I do not want to detain the House as I understand that we shall adjourn this evening for the Easter Recess. I wish the Minister the best of success in his appointment as Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries.

At the outset, I should like to say that we on these Labour Benches, as a Party, are very pleased to know that relations between the Minister, the Department and the farming organisations have improved in recent times. We hope this improvement will continue and that an early solution will be found to the many problems outstanding at the present time.

I do not know whether included in this Supplementary Estimate is a figure covering the cost of the announcement by the Department in recent newspaper issues which, to my mind, was something unique as it is seldom or never that the Department expend money on such elaborate advertisement. The Minister may say that, in view of the peculiar position that obtained over the past months, such advertisements were essential.

I shall not dwell in detail on all the Minister has claimed for himself and his predecessors in office and all that the Department have done and are doing for agriculture. The main fact emerges at the present time that agriculturists are up in arms. They are very much dissatisfied with their share of the national kitty and they have demonstrated in no uncertain manner their dissatisfaction. As I mentioned at the outset, I am glad that some ground has been found at last for negotiations. However, that does not take from us here in this House our responsibility to address ourselves to the question generally and particularly to the items mentioned in this Supplementary Estimate.

The present Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries has not held that portfolio for very long. I should like to add my voice to the closing sentiments expressed by Deputy Reynolds by wishing the Minister a successful term of office and expressing the hope that he will be responsible for bringing about friendly relations with the farming organisations in general, and friendly relations with individual farmers by making available to them the additional helps that to him and, in particular, to this House, seem justified.

There is no need for me to cover ground which has been adequately covered in many forms in recent times. The main claim of the farming community, and particularly of the small and medium size farmers, is that the Department must have a closer look at its expenditure—that is my strong personal view—and endeavour to channel more of this public money into the pockets of the people who deserve it mostly, namely the hardworking small and medium size farmers. While the larger farmers have suffered a setback in their incomes within the past two years, I am assuming that in view of the extent of their holdings and of their incomes, even though depressed, they will be able to withstand the depression that arose in agriculture within the past few years.

We blame the Department of Agriculture for a good deal of this depression. First of all, on the main Estimate here, we blamed, I think rightly, the Minister's predecessor for creating a very false impression in the debate on the Anglo-Irish Trade Agreement. I had occasion to comment adversely on the Minister's lack of judgement and lack of foresight in the many statements he made as to the benefits that would accrue to the farming communiy from that pact. We in the Labour Party voted against the pact for reasons which we stated in detail. We were not satisfied then, and unfortunately we were proved to be correct, with the statements made by the Minister as to the advantages that the farming community would get from that Agreement. We got statements without any supporting evidence. It is difficult to blame people who took as being quite definite the assertion that farmers would benefit in the year commencing 1st July, 1966, to the extent of £10 million, which has now proved to be completely without foundation. Instead of the farmers benefiting by £10 million, the net results are likely to be that in the year commencing 1st July, 1966, the agricultural income will be depressed by a figure approximating to half of that amount, £5 million.

Deputies must bear in mind the reasons why there has been strong agitation in recent months. The most important section of our people, the agricultural community, found that the big carrot which was dangled before them in the early weeks of 1966 had no substance. They were told that they were in for a good time, that there would be a big increase in their income. They found that this was without foundation and that, instead, a depression set in. That must be considered against the background of what was happening so far as other sections were concerned. Large sections of our people got benefits which, it has now been proved, the country could not afford to pay, under the heading of status increases. I condemned these increases, not that I would not like to see every man getting the highest possible remuneration for his work, but because I thought it was not fitting to give big bonuses to people who were reasonably remunerated which, according to one of the Minister's statements, cost £10 million a year. I opposed the increases because I felt that our tax revenue, our economy, our people could not afford such increases. As a member of the Labour Party whose first and main object is to ensure that everybody is reasonably and adequately remunerated for his work, I maintained and I still maintain and I suggested to the Taoiseach in his capacity as Minister for Finance, that these people having got the 12 per cent increase which was paid to other sections, should rest for the time being until we had a further look at what would happen and then, if the economy were able to bear further increases, they should be considered subsequently.

In my view, the man who has to go out in the field, take off his coat and work in wind and weather, who produces our crops, feeds our cattle, produces our pigs, is contributing as much to the national effort and to the economy and to our wellbeing as are people more favourably placed by virtue of certain talents or possessions which they may have.

You will agree, Sir, that in the kind of climate prevailing, it was no wonder that we had these marches from various parts of Ireland and the unrest which, fortunately, we all hope is over and done with. I say that as one who believes that to a big extent, apart from any illegal acts, the agitation was completely justified by the circumstances in which our farming community had to live.

I charge the Government with lack of foresight. It is the Government's job, aided by the technical advice available to them and by the advice of their chief executive officers, to be able to anticipate future events, at least to some limited degree. In the pronouncements made early last year, the Government did not take into account that markets may change, that there may be major fluctuations in prices, particularly in export markets for farm produce and that if fluctuations were to take place the assurances which they gave might not be honoured. There was no mention of that possibility. Even in May, some five months later, and even when the Agreement came into operation in July, the Government were not in a position to anticipate the decline that took place and consequently did not make any preparation to offset it or to relieve the burden that would fall on the farming community as a result of the depression.

I claim that a Government lacking in judgment, that make wild, extravagant statements and that are unable to anticipate what may happen within a few months are incapable of governing the country. I am not indicting the present Minister too strongly as he has not been long in this office but I do say that the former Minister for Agriculture lacked judgment and lacked any essence of tact in dealing with the farming community. If he had been a little more diplomatic and had met the farmers in Dublin last July or August, at the time of the first march on this city, a good deal of the unpleasantness which subsequently arose could have been avoided. Ministers represent the people just as much as Deputies do and it is part of our job to meet representatives of the people and organisations of people who have grievances, whether these grievances are justifiable or not, and discuss them with them. The Minister for Agriculture failed to do that and, as a result, we have had this unpleasant chapter in our history over the past number of months.

I was one of the first to suggest to this House, and the suggestion has now been taken up by organisations representative of farmers, that milk subsidies should be channelled in such a way as to help the small producer as far as possible. I hope that when the Minister is preparing the main Estimate later on, he will be prepared to give a higher rate of subsidy to the man producing 5,000, 6,000 or 7,000 gallons than to the large-scale producer. The subsidy should be on a sliding scale rather than on a flat rate.

In the greater part of this country, dairying is the main means of livelihood of the farmers. The smaller farmers have poorer quality land; they have to buy fertilisers and put a lot of work into their land to get any reasonable return, and they are entitled to an extra subvention over and above those farmers who have a large acreage and land of higher productive capacity. The latter are not as much entitled to State subvention for the purpose of subsidising the dairying industry as are the smaller farmers. That fact has never been taken into account by the Department.

We cannot have an overall agricultural policy to be applied wholesale to this country. We must have some variation and I am glad to see from recent statements that notice is now being taken of that fact. There has been a change and we are now more inclined to look on agriculture on a regional rather than on a countrywide basis. Some of the Minister's predecessors rejected that idea but I claim, in support of my idea, that even though our country is relatively small in size, there is a big variation in agriculture. What applies to western counties does not apply in the central counties and in the counties with better land.

I hope the Minister will take steps to ensure that this subvention for milk, which he boasted about so much on Sunday last in his expensive advertisements in the newspapers, will be applied on a graded scale in future. From 1st November until 1st April every year, the small farmers have little or no income from their milk. The supply is generally so small that it would not buy much more than the butter they consume. It is a well-known fact that many farmers never see a creamery cheque. Instead of having a credit balance, the opposite is the case. They are always in the red in the books of the creameries and the creameries are to be congratulated on the credit they allow to their suppliers. I have mentioned this matter again and again. I mention it now and I am glad it is something which is likely to be accepted generally. I hope the Minister will also accept it.

The second most important sideline of the small and medium farmer is the pig industry. It is unfortunate that at present the number of pigs is declining. That should not be the case: it should be the opposite. I have heard statements by Ministers, officials and by heads of some big co-operative farming organisations that the best way to ensure a sufficiency of pigs is to promote large pigbreeding stations of 2,000, 3,000 or 4,000 pigs. I do not think these pig stations would help the economy of the pig industry.

What we should do is enable the individual farmer to increase his stock so that if pigs become a profitable proposition, he can increase his profits proportionately. I would prefer to see a farmer who is now rearing seven, eight or nine pigs increase his stock to 20 pigs and I would prefer to see a farmer with one, two or three sows increase that number to four, five or six rather than have these big sow stations.

I feel strongly on this question of pig production and I come from a constituency with the greatest record of pig production in the country. In West Cork we have been agitating over the years that by right and justice we are entitled to have our bacon processed in our own confines. We cannot see why the 11 per cent of the total output which is produced in our area should not be processed at home, why it should be taken to central curing stations set up by Government grant. I do not know whether or not they are members of the organisation Deputy Cluskey was telling us about the other day. I was rather frightened, when I was down in the Library some few weeks ago examining the records of these grants, to find the amounts some existing bacon factories were getting towards the development and general improvement of their factories. That may be right from the Minister's point of view; but, from our point of view, if that money is available for the development of bacon factories, the place to develop them is where the pig is produced.

Examine the position as it obtains in West Cork at present. The man buying the feeding stuffs for the pig must subsidise the farmers in other parts of the country who grow the barley. He is not entitled to buy maize, except that I think if you had a good "pull" you could get a private licence. That may not be correct, but I have heard it alleged. Even last week I had some representations on the matter. The Minister must find an outlet for the barley grown in this country. To find that outlet barley must be sold to the pig producers. As we do not grow a big acreage of barley in West Cork or Kerry, we have to buy it at the prices laid down by the millers. We must buy it whether we like it or not, whether we think it is the best type of feed for pigs, in order to get it off the hands of the growers and to give them what is deemed to be an economic price.

I am very conversant with pig production and with the marketing and sale of pigs. The pig produced in Skibbereen, Schull and Castletownbere must be taken 50, 60 or 100 miles to the factories in Cork. You must make sure to arrive there by 12 o'clock because, if the pigs are not within the factory confines by that hour, they are not killed on that particular day and you are told they are staying over until the next day. Examine the position, then. The pigs have to be transported a long distance and, if they do not arrive by 12 o'clock, it is likely, and often happens, that they are left over until the following day for slaughter, with a consequent reduction in weight and a probable reduction in grading.

That is the basis of our claim to a pig processing station in West Cork. We had deputations here to the Minister for Agriculture on this question. When the former Minister, the present Minister for Finance, was seeking support in West Cork and was speaking on the Sunday before the last election, he implied, possibly subtly, that a factory would be given to West Cork if Fianna Fáil were returned. Hence, we have this agitation to try to get this factory, to try to get the Minister to honour his assurance. It is all very well for the Department to say that, if one thousand producers form a cooperative, they will get a licence. People do not establish factories in this country at present without a State subvention. We are making such subventions available to many people, both native and foreign. We have made them available to a number of people, native and foreign, who have made very little use of them. Some of these subventions, sizeable sums of money, have, so to speak, gone down the drain. I am not one to plead here for a State subvention without feeling there is justification for it.

We all know that the personnel of some of the boards charged with doling out this money should be changed, having regard to the many blunders they have made in handing out hard-got taxpayers' money to ventures which have proved unsuccessful and which were not firmly grounded even in the initial stages. I am not going to name such ventures. If I were asked by the Government to do so, I would be prepared to give a reasonable few and to give the Minister some additional information in support of this charge, which I do not make under the privilege attached to this House.

Our main problem in regard to this bacon industry is this. We cannot blame the IDA and Foras Tionscal in this instance. They are not going to make grants available for this industry, unless they get a recommendation to do so from the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries. It is he who is mainly the deciding factor in this agitation of ours. It is deemed to be an agricultural matter rather than a matter for the Department of Industry and Commerce. I am pleading with the Minister to give this his blessing and to make a recommendation to the boards which make these grants available. I can assure him he will be taking a step which will meet with the approval not only of the people of the constituency of South-West Cork but of all fairminded people irrespective of where they reside.

I have been asked by various interests to avail of the first opportunity of raising this matter relevantly in the House. I am doing so now and bringing home to the Minister the views of the people I represent. I have never set myself up as a prophet but I have not the slightest doubt that, if we get this factory in West Cork, inside 18 months the pig population there is likely to double. In addition, without going into any matters appertaining to particular factories, I can say we have people in the bacon industry who are interested. If they got what was reasonable and just under our subvention scheme for factories, they would come down to us and erect the factory.

Brucellosis is another item I should like to touch on. I know this was tackled to a reasonable extent by the former Minister. It is a very big problem. In his opening statement on the Diseases of Animals Bill, he stated that animal diseases cost this country the sizeable sum of £25 million. Fortunately, we have almost got rid of TB, undoubtedly at a big cost, and the second disease to be got rid of is brucellosis. What I want to bring home to the Minister is that a number of farmers, whose herds have been stricken with this disease, have suffered grave financial loss. I know a limited number in my own constituency. I know one man who had 14 of his 21 cows aborting last year and despite the best veterinary advice, the same is likely to happen, I understand, with the replacements he subsequently bought.

We all know of the danger of selling cattle affected by disease at public fairs and marts and it is quite reasonable to suspect that some farmers not so civic-minded have brought such animals to fairs and marts and sold them, with the possibility of spreading the disease to other cattle. When we find people whose herds are suffering from such an outbreak going to the local veterinary surgeon and trying as far as they possibly can, regardless of cost to themselves to ensure that their herd will not be responsible for spreading the disease, we should treat them a little more generously than we have been doing up to now.

I know it is difficult to devise schemes to meet such situations but I should like, at least in the case of serious outbreaks, where it is likely that all the stock must be disposed of and the farm left over for a period of one, two or three years until the disease is eliminated, some compensation to be given even if only in the form of some grants with interest-free loans so that the farmer could replace the stock and begin again. I appeal to the Minister to examine this question of compensation for brucellosis, taking into account particularly farmers who are co-operating in the schemes promoted by the Department for the eradication of diseases. I do not suggest that any leniency should be shown to those who do not co-operate and who may be unmindful of what may happen to their neighbours.

Another question that has engaged our attention in counties Cork and Kerry for some years past is the problem of sheep scab. Our information is that if a co-operative effort were made, scab could be eliminated within two years. If that is so, it is unfortunate that, despite the amount of money expended on technical advice veterinary inspection, sheep dipping inspectors and so on, we still have sheep scab. It is particularly unfortunate, in the case of farmers who rely for a large part of their income on sheep, that many are able to get away without dipping——

The Deputy seems to be discussing the main Estimate.

This is only about sheep.

There is nothing about sheep dipping in the Supplementary Estimate.

No, but I bet I can find something about sheep. With all respect, I shall close on this subject by saying that it is the wish of the Joint Committee of Cork and Kerry County Councils that some effort should be made to identify sheep that are dipped and to ensure that defaulters are brought to justice.

You may tell me, a Cheann Comhairle, that there is no mention of poultry in this documentary——

The Deputy will please keep to the Supplementary Estimate.

I am just about to conclude and I do not want you to continue pointing to me.

The Deputy should cease addressing the Chair in that fashion. He should forget about the Chair; it is the House he should remember.

With all respect, how often do you tell me that I should address the Chair?

Yes, the Chair as representing the House.

That is what I am doing now. I can only reiterate that the past year has been a bad one for the farming community and this Supplementary Estimate will not relieve the situation very much. It covers only odds and ends in the different subheads and will make no real contribution to the improvement of agriculture. I ask the Minister, when formulating his policy and presenting his main Estimate in the near future, to take more cognisance of the plight of the farmers than has been taken by his Government in past years and have an agricultural policy drawn up by the Department of co-operating with the committees of agriculture and the farming interests which will prove fair and equitable to all farmers, small, medium and large. If he does that, he will have my blessing and that of the Labour Party.

As the previous speaker says, the year was a bad one and a sad one for Irish farmers and agriculture generally. Irish agriculture at present, and not for the first time under Fianna Fáil Government, is definitely in the doldrums and the farmers who are our principal producers are at present cast in the role of hewers of wood and drawers of water. Highly respectable and responsible men do not join together and adopt attitudes which result in their going to jail unless driven to it by desperate needs.

Anybody interested in the economy and in agriculture is glad to see—at least we hope—that sanity has at last prevailed and that the Minister is about to do what we claim he should have done six or eight months ago, that is, to sit down at the conference table and discuss their problems with the NFA, an organisation which represents, I should say, 70 or 80 per cent of Irish farmers. It is in the interests of the nation that the discussion should be fruitful. I hope it will. We have always favoured co-operation and consultation and I am glad the Minister has now agreed to it.

The situation was very badly handled. It should never have been allowed to escalate. Now that the Minister has agreed to meet the farmers, I hope he does not adopt the strategy of Lord Melbourne: "to ponder, cause, prepare, postpone and end by leaving things alone; in fact, to earn the peoples' pay by doing nothing every day". That is how Fianna Fáil have treated the NFA up to now. We hope there will be a change for the better in the future.

It is the Government's duty to govern, to control the economy and balance one factor with another and see that all sections get a fair deal. They have definitely failed in this respect to do their duty. The more we look at the sad history of the past few months since this dispute began, the more we realise the Government's responsibility for the chaos that exists in the agricultural industry. The dictatorial attitude of some of the brassnecks in the Fianna Fáil Government and their determination not to meet the NFA but to crush them has led to the crisis which now exists and which, as I said earlier, I hope is now on the way to final solution. But the NFA will want to be very careful because they are dealing with wily politicians. However, the Taoiseach asked them a few days ago to stop to think. They have done that now and I hope that when this conference takes place and the Minister meets them there will be fruitful results. Recent events have shown the disastrous situation which has followed from the Government's refusal to accept representations which were made by the farmers a long time ago in regard to a meat marketing board. I am not going to discuss that now but——

I should like the Deputy to come to the Estimate.

Yes, but I do believe there should be collective responsibility.

The Deputy has said all that, and I suggest to him now that he come to the Estimate.

If there was a proper selling method, there would be no necessity——

I refused to allow the mover of the motion to refer back the Vote to discuss a marketing board for reasons which he accepted. Perhaps the Deputy would follow that example.

There has been a collapse in livestock prices over the years. There is reference to it in the Minister's speech and to the Free Trade Area Agreement with Britain. We remember when that Agreement was introduced in this House all the different promises that were made by Fianna Fáil. We were told that the price of cattle would increase immediately by £5 to £7, that the farmers' income would increase by £10 million. From the facts available to us at present, we know that was completely wrong. The farmers were misled then. There has been a collapse in the livestock industry over the past year.

Surely the Deputy realises he is speaking to the general Estimate, not to the item here on the Order Paper?

Yes, but in the Minister's statement, for example, there are sums in relation to the beef, mutton and lamb export guarantee schemes. When the Free Trade Area Agreement was introduced, we were told that prices would increase under these schemes. The Minister also mentioned today the subsidy for sheep and lambs. Despite that subsidy, sheep and lambs were sold at our markets from 15/- to 20/- less than they were last year, so that in that regard this scheme has not been very successful.

The Minister says here today:

The fat cattle headage payments scheme was, of course, introduced as a special emergency measure at the end of August to strengthen market conditions for cattle producers here at a time when prices weakened.

When he said that — I do not want to quarrel with you, Sir — we are entitled to say that our marketing system is antediluvian and if we had a better marketing system in the past, as people advocated a few years ago, this crisis would not have arisen and there would be no need for voting this extra money here today.

The Deputy has said it.

The Minister continued:

This weakening of prices has been brought about by a number of factors outside our control...

Some of them have been brought about by factors outside Government control, but many of them have been within the Government's control. If there had been a proper agricultural policy down the years and if there was more co-operation by the Government with farmers' organisations and farmers' representatives, we might have a much better agricultural policy. We are quite entitled to argue that had we had that, we would not have had this disastrous collapse in prices.

The Minister went on to say:

...the principal ones being the sluggish demand from Britain for our stores and the virtual closing of the EEC markets to imports of cattle and beef as a result of the imposition of very high levies.

The Minister's predecessor came into this House last May and told us about this wonderful Agreement and about the wonderful improvement we were to have in prices. Surely if the Minister and his advisers were doing their work properly abroad, the Minister would have had this information available at that time? In 1965, we exported 160,000 head of cattle to the EEC countries. That market is closed since last April. What we are concerned about is that despite the fact that it was closed since 1st April, the Minister's predecessor, Deputy Haughey, misled this House by telling us that after 1st July the farmers would get £5 to £7 extra for their cattle. The farmers, being an important section of the community, should be taken into the confidence of the Government, should be told the truth, and the whole truth. They should not have been misled as they were at that time.

In the month of October, the then Minister told farmers to hold on to their cattle. What has happened to the farmers who held on to their cattle? We know that they lost heavily on them by taking the Minister's advice. This all comes back again to the one thing, that if there were consultation and co-operation, much more could be done for Irish agriculture than is being done at present.

Deputies today have dealt with the decline of pig output in most pigproducing countries in Western Europe. I raised this question in the House last year, and I pointed out to the then Minister for Agriculture, Deputy Haughey, that there was a danger of a collapse in the pig trade. He told me from those benches over there that I was talking through my hat, that I knew nothing about it. I wonder now who was talking through his hat. We know that the pig industry is in trouble. As Deputy M. P. Murphy said, the small farmers who took an interest in pig production in the past are going out of it, due to the price of feeding stuffs, due to their overhead expenses increasing and also due to the fact that there has been very little increase in the prices they have been receiving for their production. The time has come for the Minister to do a little more for these people than he has been doing.

There is an additional amount of £30,500 under Subhead K.10 for the Warble Fly Eradication Scheme. This scheme has been in operation for the past three years, and full credit should be given to the people who started it. Remember, this was not a Government-sponsored scheme. Indeed, the Department of Agriculture is very lackadaisical in many ways and very much behind the time in advocating schemes for the benefit of Irish agriculture. It was the NFA and the Creamery Milk Suppliers Association who came together and launched this scheme. They did it voluntarily. It is proved a huge success and, for that, we are all very grateful.

Deputy Allen referred to the Land Project, for which more money is being voted. He said that Section B had to be stopped because a prominent Fine Gael man in his county got £28,000 under the scheme. He added that, were it not for some of the Government's colleagues at that time making a fortune out of the scheme, the scheme would still be in operation. The Minister knows quite well that work under Section B of the Land Project was done by the Department of Agriculture and the money was not paid to the farmer. The sort of woolly thinking of which Deputy Allen has been guilty is most unfair and unjust and no Deputy should get up here and make a statement such as that made today by Deputy Allen.

Deputy Clinton referred to the fall in farmers' incomes and their income vis-á-vis the rest of the community. The Minister gives certain figures here. When giving figures, the Minister should compare like with like. At the moment there is a difference of four or five per cent. Last year farmers increased production by two per cent. They were promised, of course, increased remuneration to the tune of £10 or £15 million. In actual fact, they increased production by two per cent and their income was reduced. It is still falling. The farmers represent 35 per cent of our community. The Taoiseach gave us figures recently to show that that 35 per cent is getting roughly only 18 per cent of the national income, roughly half of what they are entitled to. Deputy M.P. Murphy reminded us that the farmers are the primary producers in the country. For them there is no 40-hour week and no five-day week. The majority of them work seven days a week and ten to 12 hours per day. They are entitled to a fair return for their labour, but they are not getting that fair return.

The Free Trade Area Agreement, about which we heard so much, has done nothing for these unfortunate people. Only a week ago the Taoiseach gave us a figure of 270,000 people who have left the land since 1931. Since 1956, 91,000 have left the land. Tillage is down by 674,000 acres in the past ten years. Looking at the particulars given here, we see under (a) that the grant-in-aid will be paid into the World Food Programme account from which contributions will be made to and foodstuffs purchased on behalf of the Programme. Is it not ridiculous to see that coming from an agricultural country? Surely, if we had a proper farming programme, instead of providing money to purchase food elsewhere, we would be producing that food ourselves? If the tillage farmer got justice, if he had got fair prices over the past ten or 12 years, this ridiculous position would not arise.

The price of barley was fixed by Deputy Dillon almost 20 years ago at 48/- a barrel. Today the price is 45/-, despite the fact that production costs have increased. This year the price for malting barley is £3 2s 6d; last year it was £3 17s 6d. If the Minister were doing his job properly and the farmers were getting the encouragement they should, instead of our providing money to purchase foodstuffs elsewhere, our farmers would be producing these foodstuffs and we would be supplying them to people in other less fortunate countries.

Last year we spent £24 million on imports which could have been grown here. Unless there is a change, there does not seem to be much future for Irish agriculture. I am glad that sanity has prevailed at last and I hope that when the Minister meets the NFA, he will not try to fool them as they were fooled in the past. The farmers marched from Cork and they spent 20 days out in Merrion Street sitting in the gutter. The Minister and the Taoiseach met them. Then the Minister went down to Kerry and spent three weeks in Kerry; he thought it more important to win a by-election for Fianna Fáil than to solve the problems of the farmers. That led to the impasse which has existed until quite recently. I trust that something useful will emerge for Irish agriculture from the discussions proposed now.

I congratulate the Government and the Minister on having the good sense to bring about negotiations in connection with the dispute between the farmers and the Government.

We are constantly receiving complaints about the hold-up in grants due to farmers whose cattle have been rejected. After a long delay, these people get in touch with a county councillor, a TD, or someone else, to find out if there is any possibility of getting payment. When everything is in order, these people should be paid their accounts punctually. They have to buy more cattle, sometimes at an enhanced price.

There is an increase of £29,000 towards the purchase of machinery for forage harvesting. Spread over the 26 counties, that is a very small sum indeed. Our young boys and girls are going away and the only hope the farmer has from the point of view of help is the purchase of equipment. Weather conditions in the West are very uncertain and any harvesting spell there is usually of short duration. If equipment is limited, only a few get the benefit and the others lose. That aspect should be examined more carefully; £29,000 of an increase will not buy very much machinery.

Farmers were very disappointed because the subsidy paid on cattle exported was paid to the exporter, the big man, during recent months and meant practically nothing to the man who went out to the local fair to sell his cattle. The subsidy went into the pocket of the exporter and stayed there. I hope that will not happen again because this is the taxpayer's money and it is to the taxpayer it should go.

I should also like to point out that in the Sligo-Leitrim area the subsidy on mountain sheep nearly created civil strife at fairs in that constituency. Inspectors came to the fair in the morning and began to sort out the animals, and some of the farmers selling that stock knew much more about the stock than the inspectors. I happened to be at one or two of those fairs and I could envisage a very ugly situation arising between farmers and inspectors, with inspectors telling a man who had perhaps spent three days getting his stock to the market, what quality his sheep were and that sort of thing. I would appeal to the Minister to bring in a scheme before the next season which will include all lambs for this subsidy. In that part of the country, the difference is practically nothing and only the odd man might be lucky enough to get firstclass quality of field sheep. If the subsidy were given to all lambs in that area, it would save trouble and the extra cost would not be very great.

When the heifer scheme was introduced, I said to the Minister for Agriculture that if the subsidy had been given on calves instead of on heifers, it would have been of greater benefit to small farmers. I still hold that this would be the case. The result has been that on many small farms today, there are cattle of inferior quality. This was not always the case but in general, any heifer capable of carrying a calf became one of those which qualified for the £15 grant. If it had been the other way around, everybody could have been given four grants for four calves. Whether he was a big farmer or a small farmer, he could have qualified for four grants and no more, and that would have meant that everybody would have benefited from the scheme. I would appeal to the Minister to reexamine that proposal.

The first point I want to make is that this is a Supplementary Estimate of correction, a correction of Estimates now that they know, or almost know, the out-turn of the financial year. No item in this Estimate constitutes a price increase to farmers and the figures produced still stand, while the farmers' income has decreased by two per cent and output has increased by the same percentage. There is an aspect of the preparation of Estimates for the Department of Agriculture to which I and other Deputies have referred many times, and which has developed in the Tables we get prior to the Budget, that is, the practice of adding up the amount expected to be spent on agriculture by the State. We did not have to wait this year for this until Budget time because we were provided with it as a cost of £1,032 on last Sunday in an advertisement in the Sunday Press and the Sunday Independent. I do not want to go through it in detail because I understand Deputy Clinton has done so but I wish to make one point.

Is this sum included in the Supplementary Estimate?

If the Minister can answer, I would be most obliged.

Is the £1,032 in the Supplementary Estimate?

Is the Deputy asking me?

There is a question about that on today's Order Paper.

I am not aware that the Sunday Press charges less than the Sunday Independent; perhaps it does. The point I want to make about this highly expensive advertisement, which, by the way, was issued on behalf of the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries, is that point No. 1 states:

Reservation of Home Market for Irish Farmers.

There are very few agricultural products that are not in surplus supply and available cheaply on world markets. The Government prohibits the importation of most important agricultural commodities which can be produced at home and reserve the Irish consumer market for the Irish farmer.

It proceeds to other items, points Nos. 2, 3 and so forth, giving the list of agricultural headings on which the Government have to intervene to produce a price. I want to suggest that the persons who planned this advertisement laid a very dud egg because if they indicate in point No. 1 that there is hardly any agricultural product that is not in surplus supply and available cheaply on the world markets, then of course they are intimating to us that agricultural products could be dumped at a price far below the cost of production on our home market. Then they suggest that they are spending £55.39 millions on agriculture and that this is extra income for the farmer. The real truth is that the great bulk of this money does not reach the farmer at all; what does reach the farmer is the amount of money necessary to bring the price of his product as it leaves his farm, from the dumped world price he would get on the export market, or on the home market if the Government produced their threat, as they do in point No. 1, and left the market open to the world, and the price at which the Government hope the farmer will continue to produce. It is the difference between the dumped world price, which is far below the cost of production, and the figure at which the Government hope the farmers will continue to produce. The position is that the dumped price would be one at which agricultural production would cease and the money paid by the Government is merely to bring the dumped world price up to the price they hope the farmer will accept and at which he will continue to produce. That is the kernel of the situation.

Would the Deputy give the source of his quotation?

I quoted from the Sunday Press of March 12th, 1967, page 15. That is the kernel of the situation. One must realise, when one approaches a Supplementary Estimate of this nature, that a very great amount of the moneys therein are for this purpose but do not represent any profit or extra profit for the farmers. A great volume of the money included never reaches the farmer at all but goes to very praiseworthy things such as universities and such like.

I want to deal now with the question of milk. We have here a good situation now inasmuch as Bord Bainne got a better price abroad, and did not require as much money as was estimated. There is also the fact that they sold better. Our Kerrygold image which should have been produced many years ago, has improved the price we can command. I read in the Press yesterday that our butter quota to Britain has been increased. That is good, because GATT set out to stop dumping on the British market. In our agreement with Britain, the Government produced a system of quotas which meant that butter should not be dumped, at least to the extent it was, on the British market. This has brought about a good effect.

It must be remembered that we will provide improvements out of that money because of the diversification that has taken place in many co-operative creameries. Even with extra subventions, our price for milk is still extremely low by continental and English standards. I read in an English farmers' journal last week, while sitting in a waiting room, that the English farmer was entirely dissatisfied with his price for milk, which is approximately 1/3 better than ours, and that he was going out of milk. The only method by which he has succeeded in making a profit was by giving a very big bonus to individual herdsmen. That indicates to me that there is a necessity for an increase in the price of milk in the next Budget. As we are now aware, there will be a large revenue surplus and it would seem as if this is the proper time to suggest to the Minister that part of Government will enjoy this year should this large revenue surplus which the be devoted towards, if not a spectacular increase, certainly to a considerable increase in the price of creamery milk and milk for liquid consumption.

I should like now to deal with the position in relation to pigs. I think I am in order. The price quoted for pigs in bacon factories is the highest price ever quoted; yet the price received by the farmers for pigs is probably the lowest in eight years. There are two possible explanations of this. One is that the farmers all suddenly started to produce far less grade A pigs; the other is that there was some change in the marketing of bacon and pork or some change in the pattern of trading generally. I asked the Minister a question a fortnight ago and I got the information that the through-put of the bacon factories is about 2½ million pigs a year, and that the number of pigs entering there stands at 1½ million. It appears as if the fact that lower grade pigs were directed towards pork exports, to allow a proper price for pigs which could not quite be graded as grade A special or grade A, had something to do with this. We are aware that the export of pork was discontinued so that we could keep up the volume of our bacon exports. I asked the Minister did he think we could do it and produce a volume of grade A bacon on the British market which would mean that we would retain the business we had got by hard trading since we first produced properly-graded bacon, and in his opinion and the opinion of the Department such was the case. Pigs that could be exported for pork, pigs that could not quite be graded as grade A, cannot now be so exported.

This means that the pig producer is now carrying the cross for the country. He is taking a reduced price for his pigs on average so that we will have the volume of grade A bacon that will supply the market we have achieved. In the long run, this is good for him too, but in the short run, it means that he is going out of pigs. The scheme of grants for farrowed sows at Subhead K. 23 is something that we must welcome for that reason. The pig cycle, as we all know, seems to run to thre years. This temporary scheme is, in my opinion, a good thing to introduce.

In relation to cattle, I asked a series of questions a few weeks ago which gave me the figures — I do not want to quote them now; they are on the record for anyone that wants to read them — of the export of cattle and beet to Britain, and the export of cattle and beef to the Common Market. The third vital statistic in this series of figures was the amount of cattle exported from Britain to the Common Market. If we send their requirements to Britain and then send a further 200,000 cattle in the form of beef or cattle, and they are then moved on to the Common Market, that is an added number of cattle which we as a nation cannot export except to markets other than Britain and the Common Market.

Our trade with America — and a very good trade it has been — has been largely box beef which is cow beef. It is used there for what the Yanks like, namely, hamburgers, on which I wish them the best of luck. We are faced with the situation that if on 1st April the Common Market authorities do not change their present policy, there could be a glut of cattle at what we farmers refer to as the back end of the year, September, October, November and part of December in some years, which could result in lowered prices again. Giving advice is not much use to anyone, I suppose, as conflicting advice seems to abound at the moment

As a farmer, my policy at present, whether I am right or wrong, is to sell anything I have that is fit to sell between now and 31st May, and to go out with whatever funds are available in October and buy in again. That may be a pesssimistic view, but the question entirely revolves around whether or not the Common Market authorities are going to change their mind. I understand that the relevant date is 1st April. The extraordinary thing that happened, in which the Common Market people found themselves close to being self-sufficient in beef plus certain imports, was something that we did not foresee. I am not one of those who shout and blame the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries on this particular item or who blame any Minister for it, but it is quite sure that it occurred. If there is no change or if the change is not substantial, then we must add the number of live cattle and the cattle in the shape of beef that we send to Britain and then take the number of cattle in the shape of beef or live cattle which they export to the Common Market and add that to the number we export to the Common Market and that is the number that cannot be exported if there is no change.

I do not want to take too pessimistic a view because I hope the Common Market authorities will take some steps on 1st April. If we address ourselves to things they have done and things they are doing we find, for instance, that they accept that if they were to exclude New Zealand butter from the Common Market they would ruin the economy of New Zealand and, therefore, they make certain exceptions in that regard. Because of the link between East Germany and West Germany, they allow East Germany to export to the Common Market: this also is an exception. If it could be brought home to them that the ruination of the cattle trade here for even a period of months was, in our particular economic situation, probably as serious as it would be to exclude New Zealand butter from the Common Market, then I think that perhaps there might be some hope of an exception. But if one studies the figures——

I do not see why we should beg from them. Our imports from the Common Market would be twice our exports.

I did not suggest we were going to beg. My suggestion was that unless there was a change in the present policy there would be a serious situation here in the back end. I impress on the new Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries, Deputy Blaney, who, up to recently, was busily engaged in another Ministry — as I am sure the officers of his Department have been impressing upon him — the necessity for every action he can take, of whatever nature, to ensure that we get access to the Common Market for our cattle.

Anyone who wishes to study the figures may do so but, on a Supplementary Estimate like this, I do not want to go into a ream of statistics. I shall leave that to the Minister for Transport and Power, if he comes in. It is quite clear that it is a serious situation. It approximates in beef equivalent of cattle to about 400,000 cattle that we could not send during this calendar year if there is not some change in Common Market policy on 1st April, that is, if 1st April is the date on which they will make their decision for the months to come. When they made the previous decision they made it until 1st April and there was very little softening by them afterwards. There were 2,000 head of cattle which never went in this year and then became elderly bulls. Whether or not these elderly bulls ever went, I do not know: of course, 2,000 cattle is merely a pin-prick.

The beef subsidy scheme is working well. There is this objection to or criticism of it which is rampant in agricultural circles at the present moment. If one examines the price paid in recent times for beef in Britain by beef factories or slaughterers and the price paid on the same date here, it will be seen that there is a wide discrepancy. When we take from that discrepancy the cost of transport and various costs that arise because we are across the sea we shall still find that there is a discrepancy. This has been explained by the fact that different types of beef have been killed at certain times by the different nations.

Scotch beef has always got a premium in Smithfield. I know exporters who sent vast numbers of cattle over the years to places such as Aberdeen which were slaughtered and hung up in Smithfield as Scotch beef. They answer to the description of Scotch beef which merely means that it is a beast of a certain size and quality. However, there is a remedy for all this. The remedy that has been suggested by one farmers' organisation is a producer-controlled marketing board for meat. There is another remedy because the first thing is that justice must not only be done but must be seen to be done if people are to be encouraged to proceed.

The remedy I would see as the first remedy the Minister could apply would be to pay the beef subsidy directly to the farmers. It has been suggested that this is impracticable. If it is not impracticable to have every beast in the country with an ear-tag and a number on it and to tabulate them for the purposes of the bovine tuberculosis eradication scheme and for the purposes of the eradication of the warble fly and, shortly, for the eradication of brucellosis, surely it is not impossible to have, in this city or preferably somewhere else, an office from which beef subsidy could be paid directly to farmers? There is a precedent for this. I could quote two precedents but one is indirectly related to Government activity.

When there was a back payment to be made on wheat, the offices of Bord Gráin made that back payment in a period of six weeks and employed no extra staff to do it, and they did it very well. In this instance, they were unused to this practice, unused to this particular occupation. They had to go into extreme detail in regard to the names of all the buyers, and so on, and to verify with the flour mills, and so on, but the job was done and done well. This would be a continuing process without the great rush period when back payments had to be met on the whole intake of wheat in one harvest. This deficiency payment could easily be done by a relatively small office here, say 20 people.

It would seem to me that the proper step by the Minister would be to see that deficiency payments were paid direct. This would mean that the price of beef would be less. The farmer could sell his beast as a store beast before it reached the beef stage or he could wait until it reached the stage when it could profitably be kept for the couple of months in Britain and then draw the subsidy as a store. He had the choice of taking a lesser price for beef in the knowledge that, in his waistcoat pocket, was a small yellow notebook which told him the exact amount of subsidy he would receive from, in the case of the British farmer the Queen, or, in our case, the Republic of Ireland. This would be the first step to get people to realise that there can be fair play.

I myself would wish to examine the suggestion of a producer-controlled meat marketing board in very great detail before I could come down on one side or the other. I could not say I am competent to express a view here and now because it is a most detailed situation. In our present position of agricultural turmoil it would appear to me that the proper procedure would be to see to it that the beef subsidies are paid direct to the farmer. At that stage, it would be a simple sum in arithmetic for any farmer to see what he is getting for his beast and at what price the beast is available to the slaughterers.

I want now to deal with the heifer grants. I was critical of the heifer scheme here. I clearly told the Minister's predecessor and the House that there were people who were hopping on the bandwagon, drawing the heifer grants and hopping out and that this should be corrected. I was the object almost of derision from the other side of the House. Statistics were produced to show that the average payment was for three to five cattle and that in fact there was no such thing as a racket, and all that sort of thing. I am now able to say here that, notwithstanding all the derision that was piled on me when I said this, the Minister has changed the heifer grant scheme — I will not use the word "surreptitiously" but I will use the word "silently"— and that a provision of the heifer scheme at this moment is that the numbers are preserved in the breeding herd and that this is being strictly enforced, and properly so. The Parliamentary Secretary looks at me in a grim and serious manner. I would much prefer him when he smiles. I am telling him that this is absolutely true and that I know it.

We always did that.

No, you did not do that. I want specifically to state and I hope I will be reported here as saying that you have changed the heifer scheme and that, in fact, that change has taken place in the past three months. I will tell you why I know. One of the reasons I was a little late coming to the House this morning was that I was at an interview with officers of your Department——

The Minister's officers.

I am sorry. I did not realise that it was the Parliamentary Secretary who was over there — the Minister's officers of his Department — in relation to my own heifer grants and therefore I know all about it.

Now the cat is out of the bag.

The position is quite simple, that now as distinct from where you were — and I was the one who criticised you most severely here — you now must preserve the numbers in your breeding herd before you draw your heifer grant subsidy of £15 per head.

That will delay payment.

That will delay payment but the point is that you cannot do what you did, which was to go in, calve out your heifers, get your heifers' ears punched, draw your subsidy and as a free man, complete and absolute, go out, sell your heifers and buy bullocks. I want to suggest to you, as I suggested before, that if the Minister knows anything about mathematics, he will know that there is no such thing as an average of averages and that when he quotes across the House to me, as he did previously here, that the average payments were from three to five heifers, I say that if you take one man with 1,000 heifers and throw in ten men with five heifers and divide by 11, you now get a figure that indicates that the average number of heifers in each scheme was around about one-seventh or one-eighth the largest one, but the largest one was a scandal and you have had to change it, and I want to claim credit for the fact that I was the one who criticised it here. I want to inform you that you have changed your scheme, that I know when you changed it, and that you changed it because you found out that we were right and you were wrong, and the position is that it is not possible at present for the entrepreneurs and adventurers to hop back on the wagon and draw £5,000 or £6,000 and hop out. You have changed your scheme.

I quote from page 22 of the Capital Budget, 1967:

The provision of £1.55 million for 1967-68 for calved heifer grants as compared with an expected out-turn of £2 million in 1966-67 reflects the continuing downward trend in the demand for the scheme, which reached its peak in the first year of operation.

Let us recall that the Minister's predecessor two moves back — and it takes a man of the moment to keep up with the moves — produced in his Estimate for Agriculture that year a figure of £350,000 for the heifer scheme and it cost £1,100,000 in the same year. What he had hoped for was the balanced improvements in the average numbers of breeding animals in a herd that would have been brought about if you had followed the good scheme that we had. That would have brought about an improvement that would have been genuine and permanent. Instead, you went into this other scheme which had this spectacular result, which cost a vast sum of capital money but did not improve our situation inasmuch as it threw on the market over the past 24 months, at the wrong time, a large number of cattle for which — and I do not blame the Department or the Minister for this — there turned out to be no good market at a good price. Now you have had to cut down your scheme; you have had to rearrange your scheme and you have decided that if a man draws £150 for increasing his herd number by an injection of heifers which he mates and which bear calves, he will be expected for a considerable period, at least 12 months, to preserve his herd numbers and, if he does not, he will not be paid. You have changed your scheme, if not surreptitiously, silently. That is the position.

I want to express the general hope, as I expressed it on the price of milk, that in the coming Budget there will be for the farmers real increases in the price of their products and, as I indicated when I started and used the nefarious advertisement which cost £2,064 in the papers last Sunday as a headline and example in the matter, the moneys that directly reach the farmer, which are very little in relation to the total sum claimed by the Government, are in fact, payments to bring the price of the farmer's produce from the dumped world price at which it has to be sold abroad to a price at which the Government hope that the farmer will continue to produce, the purpose of his production being to pay for the raw material that must be imported so that we can on our industrial front employ the people who are inevitably leaving the land.

An important factor regarding the Supplementary Estimate is that it makes provision for money that has been spent or will be spent before the end of this month and consequently will not mean any increase for the farming community at this stage. It is recognised that the farming community at the present time need assistance and that agriculture has been in the doldrums for the past year or so, that there was an upset in the dairying industry last year and that recently there have been further upsets.

There is one matter the Government and the Department of Agriculture in particular should keep in mind, that is, that in their anxiety to help the farming community, they should pay more attention to grassland in connection with both milk production and livestock production.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
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