Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 11 Apr 1967

Vol. 227 No. 8

Adjournment Debate. - County Leitrim Water Schemes.

Mr. Reynolds

Today I asked in Question No. 19 on the Order Paper, addressed to the Minister for Local Government, about the delay in the payment of grants towards group schemes at Clonturk, Dromard, Rooskey, and Rooskeynamona. The Minister's reply was that there has been no delay in the payment of grants approved for the schemes at Clonturk, Dromard and Rooskey and he said the inquiries now being made as to whether farmers to whom grants are due for payment have paid their rates have delayed the payment of grants in the case of the Rooskeynamona scheme. I referred to that reply at the time as being balderdash. My reason was that the promoter of this scheme, a man by the name of Dobson, was being pressed by the suppliers of a motor pump and on 3rd March last disclosed in a letter to the suppliers of the pump:

In answer to your letter, I have written to Local Government several times stating that when the scheme was complete the houses were passed last May but the water was tested four times before it was passed. That is six months ago...

That means this scheme was passed in October last year but the grants have not been paid. The letter goes on to say that the Government are holding up the grant and the last word Dobson got from the county council was that when the Local Government Department grant was paid, they would be in a position to pay their portion.

The letter continued:

We have not any money in the bank and the cutting of the road is not fully paid for. I am doing all I can to get the Government grant and hope it will be paid soon. I am writing this on my own and I am calling a meeting. Quinn Bros. are pressing very hard for their money. I feel very much about the whole scheme as I thought Local Government would pay it when it was finished.

do not think it fair for the Minister to come in here after such a long period and tell us the grant is being held up to see if the farmers have paid their rates. I wish to add a little to that story.

Two or three months ago when the rate collector came to the area, he made it his business to tell all ratepayers that they would not get the grants unless they paid their rates. I have nothing here to prove that the rates are paid, but in my honest opinion, they have been paid. Certainly the Minister could find out very easily. A limited number of people are involved and a simple telephone call to Leitrim County Council would settle the matter. I do not think it fair to hold up these grants.

I have here another letter from Dobson, to me on this occasion:

Thank you for your letter received today. So far I have nothing yet from the Local Government or the county council and have not received any grant. B. Fair was here and he said he would take out the pumps and motors if we did not pay. He fixed in three pumps in the area and is not paid for them.

It is desperate if these people are being threatened by suppliers that the pumps will be taken out. The Minister and his Department should make some effort to give these grants because in the long run it is the builders' providers and the suppliers of the pumps who will be victimised. Those people have carried this Department for a fair period with a delay in grant. Mind you, it would be a desperate situation if builders' providers or contractors refused to give long-term credit to people who are putting in group water schemes. Again, if the Minister and the Government are sincere—even today they were not in their kind of stop-go Budget—in giving the co-operation to the farming community which they should give them, they certainly should make some effort to pay these grants.

I might mention this as well. Particularly this year there are a number of farmers who have not paid their rates. This is not because they are members of the NFA and not because there is a rates campaign on but because they cannot sell their cattle and they have not the wherewithal to pay rates. Those people are being further victimised now by the Minister's Department. If the Minister made any effort, these grants would be paid. It is an admitted fact that payment of grants generally by the Department of Local Government in the past has been slow. Today we heard from the Minister for Finance that he had a surplus of £1 million. If that is the situation, I am surprised it is not much more than £1 million. Both the Minister and his Government would be very well advised to clear off these grants to which people are fully entitled. They have been waiting for payment over a period of six months.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): I am very glad that Deputy Reynolds raised this particular point on the Adjournment because it is a matter that has given considerable concern to a lot of applicants for grants. It has become fashionable here for some time to explain a delay in paying grants by saying that it has been necessary to find out whether the applicants have paid their rates or not. I want to say that, in my opinion, that excuse originated in a casual prompt from the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries to the Minister for Local Government here some time ago when the latter was answering a question on these grants and when he was stuck for an answer. I do not accept at all that the delay in paying those grants is due to the fact that any inquiry as to the payment of rates is necessary.

An Ceann Comhairle

I would like to remind the Deputy that this refers to a particular scheme and not to schemes in general. The Deputy may not refer to schemes other than the one mentioned.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): I am simply saying that I do not accept the Minister's excuse that the delay in paying the grant for the Rooskeynamona scheme is due to a delay in seeking the payment of rates. If that were so, it would have been quite easy, as Deputy Reynolds pointed out, for the Minister to check on the telephone with Leitrim County Council whether the rates were paid or not. In fact, this grant has been delayed for several months. In making the argument that I do not accept the Minister's explanation in this case, I think I am entitled to point to other cases in which a similar excuse has been given.

An Ceann Comhairle

I cannot accept that reasoning at all. This question refers to a particular scheme.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): I am not going into any other scheme in detail. I want to say, in support of the argument that the Minister's excuse does not hold water, that there are plenty of private houses in urban areas, in no way connected with agricultural holdings, who have not paid their rates for months.

An Ceann Comhairle

That has nothing to do with the matter.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): It has not anything to do with this particular question but it has to do with many answers given by the Minister.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am not concerned with answers given by the Minister in connection with other schemes. I am concerned only with this particular instance, which has to do with a particular scheme.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): With respect, I think I am entitled to refer to this matter, but I bow to your ruling. I have no intention of disobeying. I say the Minister could have checked quite easily on the telephone with Leitrim County Council whether the rates were paid. If that was not satisfactory, a letter would have brought a reply in three or four days. This excuse has become a bit of a farce and it is a complete farce in this particular case. I would like the Minister to comment, if he will, on the fact that, as I say, not alone are agricultural grants being held up but grants in no way connected with agricultural holdings are also held up.

Minister for Local Government (Mr. Boland)

This question relates to four group water schemes in County Leitrim. The first one, Clonturk, comprises 20 houses. Grants for 17 of those were paid as long ago as 6th September, 1966; that is, 85 per cent have been paid. In the case of this scheme, at the request of the county council, the diameter of the watermain was increased from two to three inches. The county council agreed to meet the increased cost, which was initially estimated at £400. This matter is at present being examined. At a recent inspection full details of the costs of the scheme were not available for the inspector to enable him to sanction the scheme. I do not think there is any evidence in this case of undue delay.

In the case of the Dromard scheme, there are four houses and grants in respect of three of them have been paid since 20th July, 1966. The work on the scheme has now been completed and the fourth grant has not been paid yet. In this case there is the necessity to investigate the question of the payment of rates. In that case 75 per cent of the grants have been paid.

In the case of the Rooskey scheme, there are ten houses, as well as one or two new houses. Six grants were paid on 14th July, 1966 and three more on 22nd October, 1966, so that one grant remains to be paid. Therefore, 90 per cent of all grants in this case have already been paid, so the allegation in respect of those three schemes that there is any hold-up is completely unsupported.

In the case of the Rooskeynamona scheme, there are 14 houses. Of those, one may not be entitled to a grant. It is not definite yet whether the grant to this householder will be paid, as it is not definite whether he had previously obtained a grant for a domestic water supply. In this case five grants will be paid next week and eight are held up because of these inquiries which now have to be made with regard to the payment of rates and which, as I said before, inevitably result in delays in making payments in certain cases.

I should like to point out that I have the responsibility of ensuring that the vital services provided by the local authorities continue to be available to the community. At present there is an organised campaign to deprive the community of these services by depriving local authorities of the necessary finance. In addition then to the routine work connected with the administration of the various grant schemes by my Department, the Department has now the extra work of keeping itself informed of the results of this illegal campaign against the people. As I explained, that inevitably has the effect of delaying grants in certain cases.

I am amazed that Deputies on the opposite side of the House have apparently allied themselves with this anti-social campaign and have been pressing me to make every effort to ensure that there will be no delay in disbursing the people's money in the form of subsidies to these people who are trying to deprive them of these essential services.

If there is any hardship involved, the fault clearly lies with the organisation which is conducting this illegal campaign and which is being supported by Deputies on the opposite side of the House.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

Mr. Reynolds

That is not true.

Mr. Geoghegan

That is true.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): The Minister knows perfectly well that urban grants are not being paid.

Mr. Boland

This excessive concern by Deputies on the opposite side of the House to ensure that people who are campaigning against the community should be subsidised by the community and that—

Mr. Reynolds

On a point of order, has the Minister anything to prove that these people have not paid their rates?

Mr. Boland

I have, certainly. There are eight of these people for whom the Deputy is campaigning who have refused to pay their rates.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): Why does the Minister not pay the urban grants?

Mr. Boland

If the Deputy has any specific cases let him bring them up.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): The Minister's answer does not hold water.

Mr. Boland

This is the case of an organised conspiracy against the community being supported by Deputies opposite and the very people who are conspiring to deprive the community of these essential services are, at the same time, enlisting the services of Fine Gael Deputies to try to extract subsidies from the people against whom they are campaigning. This is the type of duplicity——

Mr. Reynolds

That sounds good from the Fianna Fáil benches. You have changed a good bit.

Mr. Boland

——with which Fine Gael are associating themselves. That is the type of campaign they are supporting against the people. I certainly have no intention whatever of so redeploying the affairs of my Department as to ensure a speed-up of payment to those people.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): The Minister will get a few questions next week about urban grants.

Mr. Boland

When extra work is placed on a section of the Department, the output of ordinary routine work is not so easily kept up to the same level as is normal and in such cases, I think it only right to give priority in the payment of grants to law-abiding citizens.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): Pay the urban ones.

The Dáil adjourned at 10.45 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Wednesday, 12th April, 1967.