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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 11 May 1967

Vol. 228 No. 7

Committee on Finance. - Vote 34—Lands.

I move:

That a sum not exceeding £3,524,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1968, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Offices of the Minister for Lands and of the Irish Land Commission.

In line with the agreed procedure adopted for the past three years, I propose to take the Votes for Lands and Forestry together this year also. Accordingly, in my opening remarks I shall refer to Votes 34 and 35 and at the conclusion of the debate, the motion in respect of Vote 34 will be put to the House. Vote 35 will then be formally moved.

The Lands Vote (No. 34) shows a net increase of £369,000 compared with last year. I shall commence by explaining the salient features of this Estimate—especially those items which reflect a significant change from last year's provision—and continue with a review of the principal activities of the Land Commission during the year ended 31st March last.

Provision for salaries, wages and allowances is made under Subhead A. The additional amount, £33,000, required this year is attributable mainly to the effects of the tenth round salary and wage increases which were granted following the preparation of last year's Estimate and to normal incremental advances accruing to the staff. Last year I referred to the fact that I was arranging for a telling increase in the inspectorate staff. An extra 25 posts were authorised. A substantial number of these have now taken up duty and competitions will be held shortly to fill the remaining vacancies.

The first part of Subhead B relates for the most part to travelling and subsistence expenses incurred in connection with the inspection, survey and allotment of lands under the Land Acts. Provision for incidental and miscellaneous expenses such as advertisements, etc., is also included. The extra amount, £5,250, this year is required for the most part to meet the travelling and subsistence expenses of an anticipated increased number of staff engaged on outdoor inspection work and heavier outlay on miscellaneous items.

Part (2) of Subhead B provides for payment direct to the Department of Posts and Telegraphs for all services rendered by that Department. This has now become standard procedure. The total amount required this year is £50,100.

The moneys required under Subhead D are in the nature of statutory commitments. They represent the tax-payers' contribution in the current year towards the service of land purchase debt accumulated, since 1923, on both tenanted and untenanted land. The total contribution this year, £1,145,380, constitutes the biggest individual item in the Vote and represents nearly one-third of the entire net Estimate. Of the total subhead provision, some £988,700 will be utilised to make good deficiencies in the Land Bond Fund arising from the statutory halving of annuities under the Land Act, 1933. Indeed, the overall increase of £36,610 in the subhead this year is attributable mainly to the halving of purchase instalments payable by new allottees as land settlement proceeds. Deputies will, of course, be aware that under the provisions of section 7 of the Land Act, 1965, certain classes of persons who now receive allotments of land on an annuity basis in non-congested areas do not benefit from the halving of annuities under the Land Act, 1933—the classes being (i) recipients of enlargements, and (ii) cottiers and other persons who get allotments in non-congested areas. But all allottees in congested areas, together with migrants and displaced employees getting holdings in non-congested areas, continue to get the benefit of the halving of annuities.

Section 24 of the Land Act, 1965, provides that whenever a purchase annuity lapses by reason of the operation of the Statute of Limitations, 1957, the resultant deficit shall not remain a charge on the ratepayers but shall, where necessary, be defrayed out of public funds. A number of annuities payable out of holdings situated mainly on remote islands are becoming affected by the Statute of Limitations, 1957. Subhead D includes a sum of £140 to meet resultant deficiencies in the current year.

As this subhead is in four separate parts, I think I can best deal with it by referring to each part individually,

Subhead G. 1 involves two items, the purchase of land by the Land Commission for cash in the open market and the provision of life annuities under section 6 of the Land Act, 1965. Up to 1965, cash purchases under section 27, Land Act, 1950, were restricted to lands required for migrants' holdings or for rearrangement of fragmented holdings. As Deputies are aware, however, these hampering restrictions were set aside by the repeals section of the Land Act, 1965, and purchases for cash are now open to all the general purposes of the Land Acts. During the year ended 31st March, last, a total of 75 properties, aggregating 3,399 acres, were purchased for cash under section 27 at a price of £206,324.

Section 6 of the Land Act, 1965, provides the basic authority for the introduction of a scheme of life annuities for elderly, incapacitated or blind persons who voluntarily sell their interest in land to the Land Commission. At a special press conference held on 31st January last, I announced that, with the consent of the Minister for Finance, I had made regulations for the implementation of this scheme which is an entirely novel service within the land code. The objective is to facilitate land structure reform by encouraging elderly, incapacitated or blind farmers to retire from farming and make their lands available for land settlement purposes. Elderly people, especially those with no obvious successor, find the profitable use of land a burden—it gets beyond their physical capacity and too often they are unable to carry on in the face of growing difficulties. Socially and economically the most superior results ought to be obtained when land is in the hands of active persons.

The regulations define the categories of persons who will qualify for the purposes of the scheme. In the case of elderly farmers, a lower age limit of 60 years is prescribed; blind farmers are described as those who are in receipt of pensions as blind persons under the Old Age Pensions Acts; and incapacitated farmers are defined as those between the ages of 21 and 70 years who, by reason of physical illness, injury or infirmity are unable to carry out the normal duties of a working farmer and unlikely in the foreseeable future to be able to do so.

For the purposes of the scheme, the lands will be purchased by the Land Commission under the procedure followed in cash purchases under section 27 of the Land Act, 1950, as amended by the Land Act, 1965. Full market value for the land and buildings sold will be paid by the Land Commission either in (a) cash or (b) actuarial equivalent life annuity or (c) a combination of both, at the vendor's option. This option may be exercised at any time up to and including but not later than, the tenth day preceding the date agreed for the closing of the sale. In order to eliminate small payments, the amount allocated towards a life annuity must produce a minimum income of £52 per annum. Annuities will be calculated on the basis of actuarial tables approved from time to time.

Where a vendor who on the date of the closing of the sale is married and whose spouse, not being interested in the lands jointly or in common, is alive on that date, it is mandatory that the life annuity shall take a dual form, (a) a primary annuity to be payable until the death of either the vendor or the vendor's spouse, and (b) a secondary annuity—equal to half the amount of the primary annuity—payable from the death of the vendor or the spouse of the vendor until the death of the survivor.

The arrangements for payment of a primary and secondary annuity may also extend to any vendor who, at the date of the closing of the sale, is unmarried or a widower or widow and who wishes to nominate a dependent relative for the purpose. In contrast to the husband and wife arrangement, however, such nomination is entirely voluntary but (a) the nominated dependant must be a member of the family who is dependent on the earnings of the vendor and (b) the nomination must be approved by the Land Commission.

The scheme includes a number of attractive features. In the case of elderly or blind vendors, so much of the life annuity as does not exceed £3 per week will not be reckonable when computing means for Old Age Pensions Acts purposes. This aspect has already been provided for in the Social Welfare legislation code. An incapacitated vendor who qualifies for a life annuity may, at the discretion of the Land Commission, be paid an annual supplementary allowance not exceeding £123 10s until such time as he reaches the age of 70 years or shall have been awarded a pension as a blind person under the Old Age Pensions Acts.

If, up to and including, but not later than, the tenth day preceding the date agreed for the closing of the sale, a vendor, so requests, the Land Commission may, in their absolute discretion, grant him a right of residence for life in the dwellinghouse on the lands being sold to them. This right of residence may extend to the surviving spouse or approved dependant, as the case may be, but no further and will be subject to such conditions as the Land Commission may stipulate in individual cases.

The Land Commission will also be disposed to consider, where appropriate, the question of reletting a small area of accommodation land where a vendor so requests. It is encouraging to note that some 400 applications or inquiries relating to the scheme have been received to date and these are being investigated and processed as quickly as possible. The Land Commission inspectors have been instructed to be on the look-out for cases which appear to be suitable for the purposes of the scheme.

In order to allow for some expansion in the volume of purchases for cash and also to enable the scheme for payment of life annuities to be embarked upon, provision under Subhead G. 1 is being increased this year to £230,000. It is scarcely necessary to remind the House that the main bulk of land acquisition is financed in land bonds issued under Land Bond Orders made annually by the Minister for Finance. A new series of bonds of the total amount of £2 million, bearing interest at the rate of 7½ per cent per annum, was created by the Land Bond Order, 1967, for use in the current year. I am satisfied that the allocation now proposed together with the large amount of land bonds created by the last Land Bond Order, as well as the special Budgetary provision to which I shall refer later, should be sufficient to meet the needs of the land settlement programme this year.

The second part of Subhead G stems from section 5 of the Land Act, 1965, in which resides authority for the scheme enabling the Land Commission to make loans to progressive farmers in congested areas for the purchase of viable farms of their choice, subject to making their existing lands available to the Land Commission for land settlement purposes. As in the case of the life-annuities scheme under section 6, appropriate regulations have been made bringing what has come to be known as the Self-Migration Loans scheme into operation. This, too, is a new service, really a banking or credit service, under the Land Acts and will augment existing land settlement schemes. It will of course be additional to and not in substitution for the traditional migration programme carried out by the Land Commission.

The primary objective of the scheme is to facilitate the Land Commission programme of land structure reform in the congested areas as defined in the 1965 Act—Counties Donegal, Galway, Kerry, Leitrim, Mayo, Roscommon, Sligo and parts of Clare and West Cork. The scheme is intended to encourage initiative by providing necessary capital, through the machinery of the Land Commission, to enable progressive smallholders in the scheduled congested areas to improve their status by purchase in the open market of viable farms suitable to individual requirements, subject to making their existing lands available to the Land Commission as part of the loan arrangements.

Section 5, Land Act, 1965 defines a qualified person for the purposes of the scheme as a person, including a joint owner or tenant in common—

(1) to whom in the opinion of the Land Commission an advance ought to be made, and

(2) who is the tenant or proprietor of a holding which is—

(a) situate in a congested area,

(b) suitable, in the opinion of the Land Commission, for land settlement purposes, and

(c) agreed to be sold to Land Commission within such period as is specified in regulations under the section. Article 3 of the regulations specifies this period to be one year from the date on which the Land Commission agree to purchase the holding.

A qualified person under the scheme will be eligible for a maximum loan equivalent to three times the agreed market value of the holding being sold by him to the Land Commission, subject to the limitation that, save in very exceptional circumstances, the aggregate of the loan so calculated and the agreed market value of the holding being sold to the Land Commission will not exceed £10,000 in any individual case. To cater for qualified persons whose existing holdings have a market value of less than £1,000, however, the Land Commission will be prepared to make a loan of up to £3,000; the purpose of this provision is to ensure that even an uneconomic holder who is otherwise qualified under the scheme will be in a position to obtain an adequate loan to enable him to purchase a viable family farm.

Loans will normally be repayable as to principal and interest over a period of 35 years. The rate of interest will be the same as that prescribed in the Land Bond Order current at the date of sanction of the loan by the Commissioners—the current land bond rate is 7½ per cent. Loan repayments will not, of course, be subject to "halving" under the Land Act, 1933.

The scheme includes two main inducements:

(a) partial remission, on a sliding scale basis, of the first five instalments of principal and interest, that is, over the first 2½ years of the repayment period. This represents, in all cases, a substantial saving, in fact a free grant of approximately ten per cent of the amount of the loan or 2½ times a full instalment;

(b) payment by the Land Commission of a grant towards the borrower's expenses, for example, auctioneer's fees, solicitor's fees, removal costs, etc., in connection with or incidental to the purchase of the new holding. The amount of the grant will vary with individual cases having regard to the actual expenses involved, but it will not exceed ten per cent of the actual loan approved by the Land Commission in any particular case.

On top of all this, the scheme includes the very important concession that the borrower will not be liable for stamp duty in connection with the purchase of his new holding.

The holding being sold to the Land Commission as part of the loan arrangements will be paid for in cash in accordance with the procedure followed in purchases under section 27, Land Act, 1950. When agreement on price has been reached, the applicant will be advised as to the maximum amount of loan and grant for which he is eligible. He may by this time have selected a suitable alternative holding; if he has not done so, he will have a period of one year in which to "shop around". When the Land Commission are satisfied that the new holding is security for the loan being made by them and is not required for land settlement purposes, arrangements will be made to enable the applicant to conclude the purchase of the holding and at the same time to hand over possession of his existing holding to the Land Commission.

While the scheme is, of course, open to all qualified persons in the scheduled congested areas, I myself visualise that it will be particularly effective towards obtaining "key" lands for relief of congestion and rearrangement of fragmented holdings, for landowners who cannot immediately be migrated by the Land Commission or who may be unwilling to participate in the normal migration programme. Commenting in the Seanad as to how the scheme would operate in practice, I stated:

The intention is not that someone will walk into the Land Commission immediately some farm is advertised for sale and say he wants to buy it. This provision is intended to enable the Land Commission to pick out one or two progressive young farmers in a particular townland in a congested area and to tell them that, provided they leave their holdings for rearrangement amongst their neighbours, the Land Commission will be prepared to help them to buy good holdings in another area.

To date some 290 applications or inquiries relating to the scheme have been received. Of these 200 are from parties in the scheduled congested areas and only these are eligible for consideration. The Land Commission Inspectors are under standing instructions to be on the look-out for cases which appear to be suitable for the purposes of the scheme.

A sum of £100,000 is proposed for the scheme in the current year.

Subhead G.3 provides £10,000 for payment in cash of compensation for tenancy interests resumed on the small outstanding residue of Congested Districts Board estates. The fourth and final part of the subhead relates to the payment by the Land Commission of auctioneers' commission on relevant purchases of land for cash and land bonds. It is anticipated that £60,000 will be required this year. Again I wish to acknowledge the co-operation of auctioneers and the new disposition that has been found between them and my Department and I want to repeat what I said last year that this provision has proved a decided asset in inspiring the voluntary sale of properties; my own preference is for voluntary rather than compulsory transactions.

Subhead H provides the funds for payment of gratuities pursuant to section 29 of the Land Act, 1950, to persons displaced from employment on estates taken over by the Land Commission for distribution. Last year, gratuities totalling £14,452 were paid to 60 ex-employees—an average of £241 each. Perhaps I should reiterate that displaced employees who are deemed competent to work land are automatically considered for allotments —indeed, this is only right and proper —but, where they are not found to be suitable for allotments, they are considered by the Land Commission for a cash gratuity, depending on such factors as length of service, personal and family circumstances, availability of alternative employment and so on. It is difficult to make an accurate forecast of commitments under the Subhead in any particular year because this depends on the level of acquisition activity and the extent to which estate workers become displaced from employment through these activities. With continuing impetus in the acquisition sector, it is anticipated that £15,000 will be required for the current year.

Subhead I, in the main, provides the funds required to meet the cost of the various estate improvement works which are such an important feature of land settlement. These works include the erection of dwellinghouses and out-offices, the provision of access roads, fencing and drainage, provision of water supply for domestic and stock requirements, turbary development and repair and maintenance of embankments. Subhead I is invariably a popular debating sector in the Lands Vote; indeed it is the focal point of the Vote inasmuch as it finances one of the most essential features of the land structure reform programme. Last year this subhead had to suffer a substantial reduction due to acute pressure on resources. Expenditure for the year totalled £725,000, including about £422,000 on building works. Some 440 men were employed on the various improvement works and their wage bill amounted to almost £205,000.

For the current financial year the amount proposed under Subhead I is £850,000 which represents an increase of £175,000 over last year's provision, including about £30,000 to meet the cost of tenth round wage increases, and amounts to about 24 per cent of the entire Estimate. This increased provision will, I feel sure, be welcomed by Deputies, particularly those from rural areas, having regard to the importance of estate improvement and development works.

The sub-item entitled "Housing Loans" was inserted in the subhead last year as a new item. This refers to the scheme under which advances up to £500 are made to farmers to supplement grants from the Department of Local Government for the erection of new houses and for reconstruction work on existing houses. During the past year the total amount paid out by way of loans for this purpose was £90,000 to 200 applicants and it is estimated that for the current year £95,000 will be required.

The application of work study techniques to the estate improvement works of the Land Commission continues. There was a slight drop in productivity during last year due, it is believed, to the reduction in expenditure under Subhead I but I am glad to say that this downward trend has been reversed and in the last quarter of the year productivity equalled the figure for the same period in the previous year.

Last year Land Commission workers were granted an increase of £1 per week in basic wages in line with the tenth round of wage increases. In addition, an increase of 20 per cent in bonus at standard performance was granted.

The amount set aside for Game and Wildlife Development, £80,000, is an increase of one-third on the sum provided last year. Deputies will note that the ambit of the provision in Subhead L has been expanded to meet existing needs.

As in previous years, grants for the preservation and improvement of game resources will be available to assist Regional Game Councils, representative of all appropriate interests, in carrying out approved locally-organised schemes of direct improvement of game stocks and habitat.

During the past year the sum of £39,000 was paid out in respect of 23 schemes of game improvement and a further £5,000 was paid in respect of some previous years' schemes.

Progress in the improvement of game resources continues to be made by the active Game Councils and I would like to take this opportunity of congratulating these bodies on the good results being achieved.

Basically, however, we have had, up to now, to rely largely on general local expertise for our game improvement projects. Scientific research into the problems involved, with particular reference to the Irish environment, has been a long-felt want. I have now taken steps to remedy this deficiency, not only by the appointment of a scientific officer to my Department, to whom I will refer again later, but also by the commissioning of a programme of research on mallard and grouse to be carried out by An Foras Talúntais. It is expected that the information gained from this programme will result in a big improvement in our knowledge of how to improve the stocks of these species and in the methods of management of their habitats, and will prove of great benefit to the game resources of the country.

Management of habitat is increasingly recognised as a major key to an increase in stocks of wild game, particularly of water fowl and waders. Pending any re-appraisal of present policies and practices in the overall field of drainage, burning, clearances etc., I am having the matter of the provision of sanctuaries or refuges, particularly wetland refuges, pressed as a matter of urgency. I am convinced that this aspect of conservation must be dealt with nationally and I hope to make appropriate provision in proposals for legislation which I am at present considering. In this I am assured of the whole-hearted assistance and co-operation of the Irish Wildfowl Conservancy in the identification of a national network of refuges sufficient to provide for the minimal requirements of the various species.

A start has already been made here in the negotiations to establish the first national refuge providing for the Greenland White-Fronted Goose which is the principal wintering goose in Ireland. Deputies will be conscious of our European responsibilities in the field of conservation of migratory wildfowl.

Our responsibility extends, further, to the adequate conservation and the intelligent management of all native game and wildlife, including deer and wild birds. We are alive to the need here and my Department is actively studying the practical techniques of management and development.

I mentioned last year the arrangements that had been made for the specialised training of the scientific and advisory staff which had been recruited to the Game and Wildlife Branch of my Department. These officers have now taken up active duty in the Department and their skill and experience are being made available to Game Councils.

The scientific officer will be primarily engaged on research projects, including liaison with An Foras Talúntais, on that body's research on grouse and mallard already mentioned, but he will also be available to furnish advice on grouse and deer and on scientific aspects of game development.

The duties of the two game advisers will include the furnishing of advice to Regional Game Councils on organisation, game breeding and game development matters generally, the appraisal of special areas for game development and the assessment of the potential value and requirements of areas proposed locally as refuges or sanctuaries for game and wildfowl.

The various projects for the provision of shooting for visitors which are being supported by the Joint Committee on Game Development may expect to benefit likewise from the services of the scientific officer and the game advisers. This committee, composed of senior officers of my Department and of Bord Fáilte Éireann, has sponsored, to date, a total of 23 enterprises designed to attract shooting people to this country. In anticipation of an expansion in this business, I propose to make sufficient funds available to the committee to discharge its undertakings in the current year. The committee has supported a variety of projects so as to maximise experience in this special sector and, so far, some three or four distinct types of projects have emerged, catering for different tastes and pockets. It is hoped that the number of out-of-State visitors will show a steady rise.

As already announced, the Annual General Assembly of the International Hunting Council will be held in Dublin from 14th to 17th May, on my invitation. I regard the meeting here of this leading world sporting body, of which my Department is a member, as being particularly important for Ireland, both in regard to our game development programme and in relation to the overall interests of the tourist industry.

Bearing in mind the need for the modernisation of the law relating to game and wildlife, and their habitats, I have caused a study to be made of various proposals with a view to the framing of a comprehensive Bill. Those proposals already received have been assembled and edited in convenient form and have been circulated to Regional Game Councils and other interested bodies for further study and comment. Incidentally, the International Hunting Council, to which I have already referred, has a legal committee composed of experts in hunting and game law and I am taking the opportunity of their presence in Dublin this month to draw on their wealth of experience for comment on the various proposals received.

I have dealt in some detail with the more important subheads of the Lands Vote. As the remaining items are either unchanged from last year or else are token provisions, they do not seem to call for specific comment, but if Deputies wish to obtain further information about them I shall, of course, gladly supply it. I propose therefore to continue by reviewing the principal activities of the Land Commission during the year ended 31st March last. In some instances the statistics are still provisional but they are unlikely to vary to any significant extent from the final returns. Having regard to the financial limitations within which the Land Commission had to operate during the year, the over-all results are quite satisfactory.

On the acquisition side, the aggregate area inspected during the year was 100,000 acres while the total intake of land amounted to about 27,000 acres. As the total area in the acquisition machine at 31st March, 1967, amounted to about 80,000 acres, acquisition prospects for the current year are particularly good.

As regards land settlement, the total area allotted amongst some 1,860 allottees was in the region of 34,000 acres. The acreage distributed included the provision of 68 fully-equipped holdings for migrants and the rearrangement of 460 fragmented holdings. In all 118 new dwellinghouses and 193 new out-offices were provided for tenants and allottees during the year. With the increased funds which are now being made available I am hopeful that an accelerated rate of land division can be achieved in the present year. I am arranging too, to test out a system of bulk contracting for the erection of dwellinghouses as distinct from small separate contracts for individual estates, which we find sluggish and time consuming. The first invitation for tenders on a bulk contract basis for 20 houses in a picked geographical region will appear very soon.

The vesting of holdings and allotments was continued and, in all, approximately 2,200 holdings, parcels and rights of turbary were dealt with. Tenanted land—including residues of CDB estates—outstanding for vesting at 31st March, 1967, comprises approximately 6,200 holdings. These residual holdings, situated for the most part in western congested counties, now represent the remaining hard core of difficult tenanted land cases: they are being released for vesting according as the necessary rearrangement, enlargement or other improvement is carried out.

The position as regards collection of land annuities continues satisfactory. Out of a collectible total of £2,697,471 for the year, the amount actually collected by 31st March, 1967, was £2,531,030.

As Deputies know, there is now in operation a system of direct control by the Land Commission over the purchase of rural land by persons who are not "qualified persons" as defined in section 45 of the Land Act, 1965— principally non-nationals. The position generally now is that no interest in non-urban land can vest in a person who does not come within the categories of "qualified person" as defined in section 45 (1) of the Act except with the written consent of the Land Commission.

As I mentioned last year, the general guideline in force is that permission would not be granted to non-nationals to purchase land in order to engage simply in those forms or lines of production commonly practised by our own farmers; "white-elephant" properties unable or unlikely to attract Irish purchasers in the market could be entertained for sale to outsiders. A non-national who could illustrate that he was going in for some special line with expertise and capital to back it up, and with export possibilities, could very well be acceptable.

During the past year—apart from what might be called unobjectionable transactions, those (a) arising solely from mortgage interest, (b) involving areas not exceeding five acres and (c) representing transfers between one non-citizen, individual or company, and another—the total acreage in respect of which the consent of the Land Commission, pursuant to section 45 of the Act, was given to the vesting of interests in land in non-qualified persons as individuals or companies controlled by non-citizens was 4,700. A substantial proportion of this acreage consisted of the types of property which could hold no attraction for the ordinary Irish purchaser. The corresponding area for the previous year was 3,926 acres.

Before I conclude my remarks on the Lands Estimate, I must refer to an important new task to be undertaken by the Land Commission aimed at providing the vastly improved land structure pattern which is the essential foundation for a lasting solution to the western problem. The Government's distinct earnestness in their approach to the problem of the West is manifest from the wide variety of measures adopted in recent times to effect an improvement in the social and economic conditions obtaining there. In the context of the land settlement programme the big problem in the West lies in the preponderance of undersized and fragmented holdings—a great number of which are located on poor land often in remote and relatively inaccessible areas. It is difficult for farmers in these situations to earn an acceptable living. I do not have to be told that; I know it of my own personal knowledge.

The establishment of a pilot area in each of the 12 western and north-western counties was designed to show what could be accomplished by community effort, by intensive use of education and advisory services and by availing of all the grants and loans available so that other areas and eventually the West as a whole might be encouraged to adopt the same techniques and practices. I have long felt that land structural reform is a leading prerequisite to the economic development of the pilot areas and indeed of all similar small farm districts in the West.

The Government have recently accepted my urgent representations that an intensified programme of land settlement be initiated immediately by the Land Commission in the pilot areas, which are to be extended substantially, this effort to be additional to the normal annual land settlement programme. As announced by the Minister for Finance in his Budget Statement, it has been decided to make available an additional sum of £200,000 to the Lands Vote to finance this intensified programme in the pilot areas in the current year and later on I shall be introducing a Supplementary Estimate to provide this sum. Additional staff will, of course, be required and I intend to see that these will be provided.

It is the intention to mount this campaign vigorously in the years immediately ahead until the whole task is satisfactorily completed. Structural problems of fragmentation, intermixed rundale holdings and small non-viable units will be dealt with comprehensively. Utilising to the full the powers provided by the Land Act, 1965, particularly the new life annuity and self-migration loans schemes it is expected that vacant and derelict holdings and lands held by elderly and unprogressive farmers will be freed up and made available to assist materially in the implementation of the structural reform programme.

Turning to the Forestry Vote, there is a net increase of £508,000 in the amount being provided for 1967-68 compared with 1966-67. Apart from an increase in the planting programme, to which I will refer in a moment, the main factors contributing to this increase are the impact on forest operational costs of the tenth round and a lower revenue anticipation. There is also a significant increase in provision for development of the John Fitzgerald Kennedy Memorial Park.

The House will recall that, when introducing the Estimate for Forestry last year, I referred to the Government's decision to confine the planting programme to 20,000 acres for 1966-67. At this early stage of 1967-68 the totals of planting proposals so far assembled are not far in excess of last year's programme of 20,000 acres, but, with some reliance on lands which will be acquired over the next few months, I am hoping that the programme can be increased substantially towards the figure of 25,000 acres. I have, in any event, framed this Estimate on the basis of planting 25,000 acres and full financial provision is available for that programme.

Taking the provisions in the Estimate now before the House in turn, Subhead A, £834,390, provides for salaries, wages and allowances and shows an increase of £74,390 over the provision for 1966-67. The increase, apart from allowing for the impact of normal incremental progression, covers also the effects of the tenth round and some strengthening of administrative, engineering and forester staff.

The increased provision of £15,500 on Subhead B1, £171,000 covers some increases in subsistence costs as well as normal increases in travelling arising from expansion of activities.

No change is anticipated in the overall cost of Post Office Services—Subhead B2, £34,000.

Subhead C1, £140,000 is a grant-in-aid for the acquisition of land. The balance in the fund at the end of 1966-67 was £173,931 so that a total of £313,931 will be available for the purchase of land in 1967-68.

Expenditure in 1966-67 was £118,952 in respect of 23,822 acres in 466 individual transactions. The productive area acquired at 18,314 acres was marginally above that for 1965-66. That level of acquisition last year just about kept our plantable reserve position in equilibrium despite the reduced planting programme and the normal pattern of including in the year's planting some areas acquired in earlier years which had originally been classified as unplantable. The nominal plantable reserve now stands at about 63,000 acres but this, of course, includes many areas which for one reason or another are not immediately available for planting.

The true or effective reserve immediately available is scarcely more than 50,000 acres and, as I have said, it may not in fact prove possible this year to plant as much as the 25,000 acres for which allowance has been made in framing the Estimate—even with some draw on lands acquired during the year. There is a fair amount of land on the way in, but present indications are that we will have difficulty in increasing the intake this year to much above the 1966-67 level. I am determined, however, that this problem of inadequacy of our plantable reserve must be resolved without delay and I have this whole question under active review in the Department to find an answer.

In some cases price is the obvious difficulty and we have, in fact, been prepared in recent times to pay more than the nominal ceiling of £10 per acre when we were satisfied that higher prices were justified by the economic return prospects and where the higher prices were not out of line with market value. The price question has to be kept under constant review but the answer to our acquisition difficulties certainly does not lie in across-the-board price increases.

We are, in fact, going a lot deeper into the question and reviewing our whole approach to the quest for forestry land. In a number of areas we have initiated up-to-date surveys to pinpoint expansion possibilities and these surveys will, I hope, be a first step towards a more active campaign to bring under tree crops as quickly as possible much of the land which can give the community a better return from forest development than from sub-marginal agricultural use.

Our working methods and approach to the real assessment of the suitability of each individual area for forestry purposes are also under the microscope. I believe we are making progress and, while I have sounded a note of caution in relation to the current year's prospects, I have in fact insured, in framing the Estimate, that we will have the money available if we do, in fact, secure a substantially increased intake even this year. If not, the balance will remain over to fund expansion in the following year.

Subhead C.2, £3,167,600, which covers the cost of forest development and management shows an increase of £246,100 on the provision for 1966-67. There has been a regrouping of the six parts of the subhead in order to bring the capital heads together. Thus the former heads (4) and (5) become heads (5) and (6) respectively while the former head (6) becomes head (4).

The use of improved techniques continues to be of assistance in keeping down costs at State forest nurseries and, despite the impact of the tenth round of wage increases and allowance for an expanding planting programme, the provision here, at £221,500, is only £9,000 in excess of the 1966-67 figure.

The provision for establishment of plantations, has been at £996,500, increased by £150,500 over 1966-67 as a result of the tenth round of wage increases and provision for the expanded planting programme both on labour and fencing requirement.

When introducing last year's Estimate, I stated that expenditure on road construction was expected to fall off, due partly to the trend towards better organisation of road construction programmes and elimination of costly methods associated with small isolated programmes, and partly through deferment of development by closer examination of the need for the construction of roads prior to their use for extraction. The continuing trend in this direction has resulted in a reduction in the provision under the heading of new roads and buildings of £42,000 to £403,000.

An increase of £61,000 to £379,000 in the provision for mechanical equipment for forest development and management arises partly from tenth round increases and partly from the need to expand the machine fleet, expenditure on which was cut back last year in view of the prevailing economic situation.

The provision of £1,037,600 for general forest management shows an increase of £77,000 attributable mainly to tenth round wage increases. The normal annual growth in expenditure under this head has been offset by the introduction of new, and more economic methods of controlling competing vegetation, one of the major elements of work in this sector.

The fall of £10,000 in the provision for timber conversion reflects the fall in the allowance for timber sales to which I will refer later.

The aggregate of the sums provided for labour under the various heads comes to £2,415,000 against £2,221,000 for 1966-67. The latter figure provided for 53 pay days as against 52 in the present year so that an effective increase of £236,000 in the provision for labour under Subhead C2 is being made. This increase reflects the tenth round of wage increases. The proposed provision is sufficient to cover approximately 4,350 men in 1967-68 as against 4,400 provided for in 1966-67 and an actual average of 4,135 men in that year.

Provision is being made for an increase in labour and running costs at the Department's fixed sawmills at Dundrum and Cong. The Estimate under this head shows an increase of £4,500 over the provision for 1966-67.

The provision for grants for afforestation is being maintained at the same level as in 1966-67.

The Department is continuing its effort to encourage private planting by offering a grant of £20 per acre, by the attendance of its mobile exhibit at show centres, by arranging lectures at a number of centres, by dissemination of information and by co-operation with voluntary bodies. Despite these efforts, however, private planting suffered a reduction from 1,054 acres in 1965-66 to 615 acres in 1966-67. This is the lowest level of planting for seven years and one can only hope that it was an exceptional year.

The provision for Forestry Education shows an increase of £3,500 on the provision for 1966-67. This is almost entirely due to the fact that provision is made for the first time for the running of a new training centre at Avondale House.

It is hoped that the reconstruction of Avondale House will be completed shortly. It will be used as a base for short refresher and advanced courses for forestry personnel and will fill an important role in keeping our forestry field staff of over 500 inspectors and foresters abreast of new trends and developments in management techniques, research findings, etc.

The provision for agency and other services shows a reduction of £7,990 as compared with the provision for 1966-67. The provision for 1966-67 included the cost of a comprehensive expert study of the economics of pulpwood utilisation in Irish conditions. This study is now in its final stages of preparation and the expenditure will not recur this year.

The provision for the John Fitzgerald Kennedy Memorial Park shows an increase of £72,000 over last year's estimate. The Park is scheduled to be formally opened in May of 1968 and it is, of course, essential that buildings and roads be completed before that time. The bulk of such costs will, therefore, fall to be met in the current year.

Progress in the Park is most satisfactory and already a good deal of planting has been undertaken. A contract has been placed for administrative and reception buildings. The roads in the Park have been fully surveyed and road work will be commencing shortly.

I am very happy to take this further opportunity of placing on record in this house the Government's appreciation of the co-operation we have received from the American Committee at whose behest the project was initiated.

Subhead H, covers Appropriations-in-Aid which arise mainly, from the sale of produce from State forests. The allowance this year is £100,000 less than the allowance for 1966-67. Appropriations-in-Aid fell short by £157,000 of last year's allowance. The allowance for 1967-68 is therefore £57,000 in excess of actual income for 1966-67.

A number of factors, including a protracted strike at one processing firm and a recession in the constructional timber market, were responsible for the shortfall. The present estimate is based on the expectation of some improvement in the situation.

Before closing, I would like to refer briefly to use of the State forests for amenity and recreation. I have mentioned on a number of occasions my intention, as some of our older forests reached an advanced stage, to open them gradually for public enjoyment and recreation. The first step in this direction was taken in 1966-67 with the opening of the State Forest Park at Gougane Barra in County Cork. This project was the fruit of co-operation between Bord Fáilte Éireann, Cork County Council and my own Department and is proving a welcome addition to the amenities of the area. It was also found possible last year to open Glengarriff State forest for public enjoyment and to provide a viewing point at Dromore in Kenmare forest. Development of further forest parks is in hands at Glendalough, County Wicklow, Lough Key, County Roscommon and Killakee, County Dublin, all of which, of course, are already extensively used by the public. Many other State forests are under examination with a view to considering to what extent existing public access can be better served or new facilities provided.

The spread of State forest parks and small areas of recreation and amenity in State forests, is an important byproduct of the State investment in commercial forestry. It is my hope that the amenities of our forests will be enjoyed by as many of our citizens and tourists as possible. I would also hope that it will make the public even more conscious of the importance of safeguarding the heavy investment in State forestry from damage of all kinds.

The bugbear of forest fires has again been with us this year. Already since the beginning of March we have suffered the loss of 700 acres of State forest and the danger is not yet past. It is the duty of every right-minded citizen to ensure that he does nothing that will endanger further areas of the country's plantations.

I confidently recommend both these Estimates to the House.

These two Estimates will be discussed together but each will be put separately to the House.

The Minister has given the House his annual report on the working of the Land Commission and the Forestry Division. I am pleased that he has indicated that steps are under active consideration for increasing the number of the outdoor staff of the Land Commission. The Land Commission is a big body that moves very slowly, but it is a very necessary body and one that has in the past rendered very useful service to the smallholders and cottiers who were very seriously handicapped by congestion. Now that we are going to endeavour in a determined way to remove the high degree of congestion existing in many parts of rural Ireland, we must realise that it cannot be done unless the staff are available to undertake it. The problems of congestion, the division of large estates and the response to the calls of smallholders —all these cannot be dealt with unless the staff are there to report and deal with the many applications submitted for the acquisition of estates.

I have always felt that the Land Commission have been understaffed in regard to their outdoor inspectors, and even the provision made in this year's Estimate may not be sufficient for that purpose. The staffs available in every county are very limited. While we all realise that expense has to be taken into account, particularly in times of economy, we cannot have it both ways. For that reason every effort should be made to see there is a general stepping up, not in efficiency because I think the inspectors excel themselves in that regard, but in the number of inspectors.

We have on hands a very large amount of land for division among local smallholders. I have often wondered why the Land Commission are so slow in dealing with these matters. I fail to understand, for example, the length of time it takes in the Examiner's Office of the Land Commission to dispose of the many files on their desks for a long time. I am sure every Deputy realises that where land was either acquired or purchased by the Land Commission, in most cases the owners complain about the long delay in dealing with the matter. There even have been delays in cases where clear title was available and furnished to the Land Commission. When title is established, it is difficult to understand why cases cannot be cleared in the Examiner's Office in the course of months. I am sure the Examiner's Office is reasonably well staffed. I would ask the Minister to inquire into the cause of delay in clearing holdings where satisfactory proof of title has been submitted by the vendor's solicitor. There is no justification for long delays.

I am glad to note that during the coming year the Land Commission will again embark on the purchase of land in the open market. While one hears Ministerial speeches and pronouncements over radio, television and in the press as to the amount of work carried out in the relief of congestion, a very great amount of congestion remains not alone in the west and south-west but throughout the country. I hope that in the coming year the Land Commission will be more active in the purchase on a cash basis of land that comes on the public market. The Land Commission have made reasonably good strides in the past but I know of many cases where land came on the public market and where smallholders would have benefited by an enlargement but where the land was not purchased by the Land Commission, for some reason or other, whether shortage of money or shortage of staff.

I am afraid that we are heading for a time when a small farmer will not be able to exist in economic isolation. When a reasonably large holding of land comes on the market, the State should have the first claim on it. The State should purchase that land at full market value in the open market for the relief of congestion among local smallholders. It is regrettable that there is not some machinery whereby the Land Commission would be immediately notified of holdings that come on the public market so that they could indicate their interest in these properties. There have been cases where large tracts of land came on the public market and where local applicants would have been very pleased if the land had been purchased. It would appear that the Land Commission were not prepared to pay the full market value, with the result that the land went to the big man. The smallholder is the backbone of this country but he is being squeezed out and is growing thinner and poorer while there appears to be a return of the rancher and the big farmer.

Where lands, particularly farms, of over 150 acres, come on the public market, the Land Commission should act so as to provide land for deserving local applicants. Many holders of less than 50 acres are put to the pin of their collar to exist. In many cases they have to pay substantial amounts for land taken on the conacre system. Many of them have to pay £23, £24 and £25 for a single acre of land for tillage for 11 months. Smallholders have had to purchase hay and to take meadowing and have had to compete for grazing with the big man whose cheque book is unlimited. The Land Commission should make a determined effort to improve the lot of the small uneconomic holder. In saying that, I do not mean that in recent years nothing has been done for these people. I gladly and proudly admit that a good deal has been done but a great deal requires to be done in the future. We are told that 77,000 people will leave the land by 1972. The only medium we have to keep people on the land is the Land Commission. The Land Commission were set up to perform a very necessary work—the relief of congestion—and they should tackle their duties in a more courageous and more determined manner.

There is no county in which there are not groups of smallholders coming together in their anxiety to obtain divisions of land from the Land Commission. There are always more applicants than there is land available. It is very disheartening to hardworking people, cottage tenants and smallholders, when they see large tracts of land in the district coming on the public market and falling into the hands of the big man and the rancher. Therefore, I would recommend that the Minister should consider making even more substantial sums of money available for the purchase of land in all areas for the relief of congestion. I say from experience that a number of applicants who obtained land from the Land Commission have experienced difficulty in paying the high rents charged by the Land Commission. Some better system should be devised. In an area which is not a congested district, the full economic rent must be paid and the benefit of the halving of the land annuities under the Land Act of 1933 does not refer to those people. For that reason very great difficulty has been and will be experienced by the successful allottees in the payment of the annuity to the Land Commission.

I have often wondered if it would be possible to have the half-yearly instalments decreased or if some other means could be devised whereby the heavy charges for land would not be felt by those smallholders. It is common knowledge that very great difficulty is experienced, due to the shortage of capital, by those people who get land. I am glad to note that in this Estimate what can be described as generous provision is being made for the improvement of holdings on the hands of the Land Commission which will be allotted in future. Fencing is of the greatest importance. I have inspected some of the fencing carried out by the Land Commission and I must say that those responsible deserve a word of praise. I could find no fault with the works undertaken. Nevertheless, when the Land Commission are handing over additional land or new holdings to the allottees, they should ensure that the fencing will be a first-class job so as to ease the cost of maintenance on the allottees for the future. I am also satisfied that the supervision in the improvements section dealing with out-offices, buildings and fencing is of a high standard. However, these men have to work within the limits of the money available. The Minister and the Government should seriously consider providing whatever money is necessary to ensure that the best possible standard of work is carried out so that it will be of lasting benefit to the allottee.

The Land Commission can perform many great functions. Their scheme for the provision of loans and grants for the repair of houses and for the erection of new houses has been very beneficial in the relief of congestion. Even though £500 or £250 cannot be described nowadays as a very big sum, these sums have helped considerably and many people are very pleased to receive them. I thought it might have been possible this year for the Minister to increase these loans substantially. We have cases in which an applicant would require £750 or £800 for the erection of a new house, while £500 appears to be our limit. We have cases where, in addition to obtaining the limited amount made available by the Land Commission for repairs to houses, the tenant had to seek other financial assistance to enable him to have the work carried out satisfactorily.

Where an allottee is given a holding or an addition to his existing holding, his financial circumstances ought to be taken into consideration by the Land Commission and, in addition to giving him the land, some financial facilities should be afforded to him. It is all right to say that the Agricultural Credit Corporation is there and that the banks are there, but when land is allotted it is a golden opportunity to examine the financial position of the applicant so that, if he requires it, the Land Commission can make financial assistance available for the purpose of stocking that land, providing him with additional machinery or enabling him to break land for the first time into tillage. Perhaps the Minister might consider that for the future.

I have often wondered also about the feasibility of the Land Commission setting up a section known as the agricultural machinery section whereby smallholders could hire out agricultural machinery at low and economic rates; in respect of the hirage of the agricultural machinery in the springtime and in the autumn, the Land Commission could keep an account which would be paid by the tenant in October, November or at the end of the year. There are many smallholders who are not fully equipped with their own agricultural machinery; it would not pay a man with 35 or 40 acres to have a tractor. An effort should be made to look after smallholders by hiring out agricultural machinery to them.

I am somewhat disappointed with the response to the scheme announced some time ago by the Minister for cash payment or pension in exchange for small farms. The Minister must, I think, be somewhat disappointed with the numbers of inquiries about the scheme and the numbers anxious to avail of it. It is too soon to pass judgment, but I believe most incapacitated land owners would be anxious to take part in the scheme. I quote now from the Irish Independent of 22nd November, 1966; it is the press interview with the Minister at which the scheme was announced:

A scheme under which the Land Commission will offer a cash payment or pension in exchange for small farms throughout the country is being worked out by the Department of Lands. It is expected that about 15,000 people over 65 years of age will take part in the scheme. The Land Commission plans in this way to be able to take over and utilise small farms to enlarge other farms and make them into economic units. The broad outlines of the scheme were announced by the Minister for Lands in the White Paper and were again discussed during the Estimates for the Department. The figures are now being revised and it is thought that more precise details may be ready within the next few months. It is estimated there are about 60,000 farms occupied by people over 60 years of age, about 6,000 of whom are living alone.

The scheme announced by the Minister looked very attractive on paper but is apparently not quite so attractive in reality. If it were, we should have had a better response.

I have been anxiously awaiting the more precise details referred to by the Minister last November. It is an excellent idea that the man or woman who wishes to hand over a holding to the Land Commission under the scheme will be allowed to remain in the house for the remainder of his or her lifetime. It is also an excellent idea that the allowance provided, up to a certain limit, will not affect the old age pension when these people reach 70 years or are already over 70 years of age. The Minister should keep the House informed at the end of every quarter of the precise details and give all the relevant information about the working of the scheme, the amounts paid out and the numbers covered.

Land division is of immeasurable importance in rural Ireland and I hope every effort will be made by the Land Commission in the current year to accelerate the acquisition and division of the many holdings which have already been inspected. The Land Commission might also examine their conscience in regard to the letting of land. When a holding is taken over, it is set in conacre year after year and in many cases there have been complaints of the run-out condition of the land when it is allocated to the successful applicant. It is the belief that, despite the high price the Land Commission pay in the open market, repeated lettings should help the Land Commission to earn a financial return on these lettings and that money should be used for drainage, fencing and roadmaking when the land is divided. When the lands are handed over, soil testing should be done to ensure that they are in good heart. I have known cases in which repeated lettings were made and the land was subsequently found to be completely run-out. I hope senior inspectors will direct their attention in future to the fact that these lands should be well fertilised and put into excellent condition before being handed over to the successful allottees. The longer lands are left without proper manuring the poorer the soil becomes.

I am somewhat disappointed with the purchase of land on the open market. The Land Commission should be more alert. They are very welcome in the open market because they are good customers, and I am glad the Minister referred to the spirit of co-operation between auctioneers and the Land Commission. That co-operation runs both ways. Auctioneers are always very glad to meet a good customer. The Land Commission are good customers in my experience. The only complaint we have is that we do not see them often enough. As a Deputy, I should like to see the Land Commission more active in the purchase of land because I appreciate the value of such purchases to congests and others in need of enlarged holdings. If the Land Commission purchase a farm, a number of local people benefit as a result. If an individual farmer purchases a local farm, that purchase benefits the individual farmer only.

I hope that in future the Land Commission will embark more courageously on the purchase of land. That is the main purpose of their existence. That is the way in which to help the smallholder to enlarge his holding and raise his standard of living. The policy of the Land Commission is to raise all small holdings up to the region of 50 acres and, even at 50 acres. I have always maintained that to have his own tillage, his own grazing and his own meadowing, a landholder would require 60 acres at the very lowest. It will be some job to raise all our smallholders to that level, but, nevertheless, I think a very genuine effort should be made to increase the holdings of these people on whom this country depends. They are hard workers and extremely industrious. We have seen and see even at present the sons of smallholders having to leave the land and emigrate.

I want to direct special attention, for the records, to the fact that the Fine Gael Party have asked that the minimum size of an economic holding be not less than 50 acres and I think that is generally agreed. We have also asked that a review of the work and the policy of the Land Commission be undertaken. We have recommended that a scheme should be in operation whereby farmers will be able to lease farms at an annual rent, thus leaving their capital free to provide livestock and equipment and that a farm apprenticeship scheme be inaugurated and that, from such a scheme, young farmers should be selected for the leased or rented holdings.

I seriously think there are many farmers' sons in this country who are not in a position to buy holdings when they come on the market. They cannot compete against the Land Commission or against the big farmer who wants to purchase. Therefore, something practical should be done for the farmer's son who wants to live and to marry and to bring up his family on the land. He cannot buy it and his parents cannot buy it because of financial circumstances. Tracts of land at present let on the conacre system could and should be made available to farmer's sons on a lease or rent basis. I have advocated that many times and I think it is a scheme which the Land Commission should very seriously consider.

I am very glad to note the special interest displayed by the Department of Lands in regard to the preservation of game. Any money we spend on that is money well and wisely spent. Such preservation and the assistance given to Regional Game Councils throughout the country reflects very great credit on all concerned. Game is also a very great tourist attraction. In addition to having the best fishing in Europe, we can also boast of having very fine shooting. I am glad that every effort has been made by the Department of Lands to co-operate with the Game Councils who are doing very fine and noble work. I trust that that work and the interest the Department have displayed in the preservation of our game will continue.

It is generally noted, with satisfaction, that the purchase of land by nonnationals is no longer a problem in this country. We have a number of holdings which could be described as white elephant holdings. Where no Irish purchaser is available for such holdings, perhaps the Land Commission would consider any prospective purchaser who would be prepared to spend money on improvements and developments but only where an Irish purchaser cannot be found. I think the sub-division section of the Land Commission has been extremely exact in that respect. Certainly, I do not find fault with their exactness. Nobody has a better right to the land of Ireland than the people of Ireland and if there are Irish purchasers for land, then in all cases preference should be given to the Irish purchaser. I note with satisfaction that the purchase of land for agricultural purposes is not presenting the problem now that it did some years ago.

I want to make a very brief reference to the Forestry Vote. I want to express my genuine dissatisfaction with the amounts provided, and particularly with the decrease in forestry in the last financial year which has been responsible for a reduction in employment in most of our State forests. Forestry can be a great source of employment in rural Ireland. We have only about 4,500 workers employed in our State forests. I have always maintained that we could and should have at least 10,000 men employed. I am also very distressed that little effort has been made to embark on a scheme for the plantation of cutaway bog. We must have thousands of acres of cutaway bog throughout the country.

I must also express my dissatisfaction with the low rates which the Forestry Department are paying for land for forestry purposes. I am aware of cases where lands have been offered to the Forestry Department and in these cases the vendors, who were reasonable people, sought a reasonable amount for their lands but did not get it. There was a time when good tillage land was making £100 per acre but now it is making from £160 to £170 per acre. Many years ago the Forestry Department was paying from £5 to £10 per acre for lands for forestry purposes and today they are still paying only £10 or £12 an acre. Having regard to the importance of afforestation and to the fact that it is a great source of employment in rural Ireland, to the fact that plantations beautify the countryside and to the future need for high-class commercial timber it is essential to pay decent prices to the landowner who is prepared to sell suitable land for forestry purposes.

The sooner the Department realise that they cannot make headway by paying anything from £5 to £12 per acre for forestry land the better. This price is not sufficient and while the Department may find an isolated landowner who will part with his wasteland for £10 an acre, there are many owners of land, which is unsuitable for any purpose other than forestry, who would prefer to leave it lying idle rather than give it to the State for £10 an acre. The time has come for a recasting of the Forestry Department's plans in regard to the purchase of land. A sum in the region of £20 per acre should be paid by the Department. An effort should be made by the State to be generous in regard to giving what is considered to be the value of the land, taking into account the amount of employment that will be given in the future and the value which the forests will yield in 25 to 30 years when the timber will be fully grown.

Afforestation does not give a return immediately but it is a very sound investment and the more money we put into it the stronger will be our investment. We heard criticism in the past of our afforestation investment, of the amount of investment by the State in the early years. However, 25 years later we were praised very highly by people prominent in the building industry because we had produced top quality timber for constructional purposes which could compete with the best that could be imported. Our investment in forestry will probably not pay in the lifetime of any Member of this House but it will give substantial returns in 30 to 40 years time. As I say, we cannot expect quick returns from this investment but the more money we put into it the surer we are of a good return in the years to come.

I should like to know from the Minister what he intends to do about the State forests where the services of good forestry workers were dispensed with during the past year. On the Estimate last year, I said that it could not be otherwise because the Vote showed a reduction. There was a net decrease in regard to the Forestry Vote of over £204,000 compared with the previous year. This meant that there must be a cut-back in planting to 18,000 or 20,000 acres. Now, the Minister hopes to reach the target this year of 25,000 acres. This should be the minimum target and every effort should be made to raise it to 30,000 or 35,000 acres. It is not possible to reduce the Estimate and still tell the House that there is going to be an expansion in afforestation. That was the picture we had this time 12 months. The result was that many skilled workers had to be laid off. Forestry workers are skilled workers. They are skilled in the work of thinning, planting and draining and also in the making of roads through the State forests. If the Minister hopes to reach the target of 25,000 acres this year, I wonder what steps he proposes to take to ensure that every State forester will be authorised to take back all the forestry workers whose services were dispensed with during the past 12 months.

The Forestry Department have a long way to go in regard to improving conditions for their workers. There is no reference in this year's Estimate to what progress has been made in regard to the provision of houses for foresters. There was a reference in last year's Estimate and I referred to the matter the previous year. The Minister should give us some idea of the progress made in the provision of houses for State foresters and also the improvement of facilities for forestry workers at all our State forests. I should also like to hear from him what is the position regarding the five-day week all the year round for forestry workers; what progress is being made about their pension and sick pay scheme. The forestry worker is a valuable asset to the country and a specialist at his work. That being so, he should have the conditions of a specialist but there is room for much improvement.

Perhaps the Minister would also tell us if there are any records in his Department of the acreage of private planting in recent years. We are behind in the facilities which the State offers for private planting in comparison with what is available in most European countries. There is no evidence in my constituency of any degree of private planting. People should be encouraged to embark on schemes of private planting, particularly where they have suitable land. The Forestry Section should come to their aid in a very generous way in assisting them with such schemes which could and should be considerably accelerated. I wonder if it would be possible to have rates remission for a certain acreage of forestry or for the Land Commission to grant a reduction in rent to the land owner who has part of his land planted. That might encourage him to plant. Surely some ways and means can be found to bring about greater awareness among landowners of the importance of private planting and of encouraging them in that direction?

I should also like to hear from the Minister if he or his Department have established an efficient marketing machine for forestry products or if he has under consideration any proposals to help the small sawmills throughout the country, a number of which gave very good employment, particularly where forestry operations were in progress. Many of them had not the necessary capital to keep going and had to close down. There should have been some State-sponsored scheme under the Department of Lands to help private sawmills, perhaps through long-term loans or by bonus payable by the Department on the number employed.

I should like to know if the Department have any proposals for the establishment of suitable rural industries for by-products of timber. We cannot compare ourselves with Canada but we can learn a lot from that country where, dotted all over that vast territory, numerous industries, big and small, are established in rural areas for timber by-products. Here we are and we do not seem in the lifetime of the present Government or, one might say, in the past 40 years, to have set our minds to the establishment of such industries. There must be specialists in the Department who are giving this matter their attention. Have they any plans even for the future establishment of such industries? When we consider the many industries set up along the banks of the Ottawa River and the St. Lawrence River, far from cities and large provincial towns —admittedly, there are vast forests behind them—we must realise that it cannot but be possible after 40 years of native government to take some steps to formulate plans as a result of which we can look forward even in the future to the establishment of rural industries connected with our forests. These are all part of one big scheme and the Department should be constantly active in planning for the future.

Perhaps the Minister will take another opportunity of letting us have what can be described as his long-term forestry plans. We are now embarking on membership of EEC and we have planning in various spheres for the future, looking ahead to the 1970s. What long-term plan have we for forestry? We cannot go ahead by limping from year to year or from three-year period to three-year period. It might be wise for the Minister to consider seriously calling together his specialists and asking them to plan out a programme for the next 15 to 20 years, the acreage that is expected to be available, what assistance can be given and what plans can be made to assist private planting and what other schemes we could have in conjunction with Bord na Móna or other bodies for the planting of cutaway bogs.

Many of our bogs will be cutaway within the next 15 or 20 years. It is believed that in the great Bog of Clonsast there is another 25 to 30 years supply of peat but in areas where Bord na Móna have been working for the past 25 years, surely some planting by the Forestry Department in conjunction with Bord na Móna must be undertaken with a view to utilising all this cutaway bog which will be useless for anything else? It is a great pity when we have such vast areas of cutaway bog that we have no serious plans to provide work thereon.

I do not propose to say anything further but I would ask the Minister to consider those few points seriously. I want to say a word of praise in regard to the staff of the Forestry Division and the Land Commission. We are extremely fortunate in having competent, courteous and efficient men on the staff of both the Land Commission and the Forestry Division. I am sure those specialists, especially in the Forestry Division, have gone abroad to see the developments in forestry in other countries. If they have not done so, they should go and see what is happening in those places because money spent in such a way is money well spent. We can no longer live as a small isolated country. We must see what other countries are doing and must adopt up to date and modern methods. We must see where they have succeeded and must try to apply their methods here. I wish to pay tribute to the officers of the Land Commission and those of the Forestry Division for the excellent services they are rendering, not alone to the State but to the community. The community in general appreciate the very high standard they have set in promoting work for the relief of congestion in the Land Commission and the development of our forests in the Forestry Section.

I am sure the Minister would not mind if I were to borrow a term which I understand he uses frequently when he is critical of statements made by people who do not see eye to eye with him. That term is political diarrhoea. It is from the Minister's dictionary I have borrowed this. This morning we listened to a great deal of verbal diarrhoea from the Minister in presenting this statement to the House. I believe his term "verbal diarrhoea" is as apt as any term I could think of myself.

Dáil Éireann is asked this morning to approve of £3,524,000 to defray the expenses and the costs of the Department of Lands for the current year, 1967-68. There are many people who look towards the Department of Lands for help and aid at the present time who may see this sum of more than £3½ million tomorrow, or perhaps this evening, and who will say: "Surely now our case will be attended to? Surely our representations for increased land or for migration will be attended to?" They will say this when they see that this big sum of money has been made available by Dáil Éireann today, that is, in the event of its being passed today.

What do we find when we examine the Book of Estimates? We find that £1,108,000 of this money is to pay the administrative staff in Dublin and in the provincial centres. We find that travelling and incidental expenses amount to £90,250, Post Office services, £50,100, legal expenses, £12,000, and so on, so that in my calculation we can subtract £1,289,350 from the £3,524,000 which the Dáil is being asked to vote towards the development of the works carried on by the Land Commission.

Let us examine this—this is the place to examine it and it is our job to do it—and see what it all means. We should in normal circumstances be getting a lot of work done by the Land Commission. We have 163 people employed in the Commissioner's Office and the secretariat. In the Accountant's Branch, we have 57 people employed, and in the Collection Branch, 192 people. In the Purchase Branch, we have 36, in the Acquisition and Resales Division, we have 244 people employed and in the Subdivision Branch, we have 18 people employed. In the Church Temporalities Branch and Quit Rent Office, we have seven people employed, in the Development Division, 19, in the Solicitor's Branch 11, in the Registrar's Branch, eight, in the Examiner's Branch, 11, in the Records Branch 18, in the Inspectorate Branch, 227, in the Survey and Mapping Branch, 37, in the Office of Public Trustee five. That is a total of 1,062 people employed by the Land Commission at a cost of around £1¼ million.

This does not differ to any great extent from the numbers employed or the costs of the past year except in increase in salaries. What has been achieved in 1966-67? Do not mind this jargon here from the Minister, 28 pages, when he could have told us everything in a statement covering four pages. As far as I can diagnose the Minister's statement, the only thing we did last year was that we acquired 75 properties at a cost of £206,324. That was one job. We provided 68 fully equipped farms for people who qualified for them. We re-arranged 416 fragmented holdings. We bought 27,000 acres of land and we expended £850,000 on improvement of estates, as mentioned in Subhead I. As far as I can see, that is the total output of work by the Land Commission in 1966-67. I am quite sure there is not likely to be too much development in 1967-68. For that output of work in 1966-67, we have paid, or we are to pay, £1¼ million in administrative expenses.

There is no justification for so many people doing so little. If any private firm were to conduct their business on those standards, that firm would be out of business in two, three or four years' time. They would be completely bankrupt. My statement here is in no way meant to be a reflection on the personnel of the Land Commission. My information is that they have no work to do. First of all, there are too many of them and, secondly, they have not any money to buy additional land. I understand they were broke for most of last year's period and that there was no money at all available. In order to try and make work, they have to hold on to farms for three, four and five years before allotting them. A share of the responsibility for that position rests with this House. It is no harm to bring this out here now. It should have been brought out a long time ago. We and the State cannot afford to see the people's money going down the drain in unproductive employment and unproductive work.

Now, Sir, I hope the Minister will be able to give a clear-cut statement in reply to my comments on the administrative capacity of the Land Commission. To sum up, I believe expenditure is completely and entirely out of all proportion to the output of work.

Having said that, my second duty this morning is somewhat more pleasant. I want to thank the Minister. Last year I had occasion to bring before this House the specific case of a woman who, I maintained, was treated badly, to put it mildly, by the Land Commission. She did not get justifiable treatment from the Land Commission. I made that case to illustrate the position in so far as a number of people were concerned in relation to land bonds. I am pleased to say that the Minister has rectified the position in the particular case I mentioned and I am grateful to him for doing so. It indicates that this House is a good forum for bringing forward injustices from which many of our people are suffering.

When the particular situation was raised last year the Minister was furious—the Land Commission was 100 per cent correct. The Minister was talking through his hat. The allegations made have all been justified and I want to convey thanks to the Minister for the manner in which the case was finally dealt with. However, all these cases cannot be brought specifically to this House. We have umpteen others about which there has been no mention. Representations were made and several people were told that nothing could be done: "You have got what you are entitled to." I believe all the outstanding cases should be re-opened. We are not legislating for individuals but in an equitable way for our people as a whole. There are other cases in many parts of the country. I have made representations with regard to some of them and I think the whole question should be re-opened.

We know there was a decline in the value of the 6 per cent land bonds, a depreciation of 21½ per cent. Prices went down to 76½. I make the plea here today to the Minister to look again at the people who lost so much money through no fault of theirs, to look again at their claim for some measure of compensation and where it is warranted, and in my opinion, it is in most of the cases, give it to them.

We have schemes which were adverted to by Deputy O. J. Flanagan. This is political stunting—giving compensation to old people, blind people, and so on, and getting 60,000 farms on that basis. We will give thousands to others to move out of holdings and buy more economic holdings. That is all grand in theory. It is lovely and I would entirely agree with it. But, in practice, what happens? We are told that there are farms occupied by old people and blind people who would be glad to sell them and take compensation. I think that is stunting of the highest order. I am sure there are not more than 1,500 of those in the area from Donegal to Mizen Head where I live. That is the most there is and it is very unlikely that the Land Commission will be doing business with many of those people. Do we not all know that where you have an infirm or incapacitated person, in most cases a nephew or a niece comes along to live with him and takes over the holding.

That is all right for political stunting. The Government were in great difficulty last year due to the credit squeeze and the drop in prices. In order to take the people's mind off what was happening in so far as the economy was concerned, they brought along this scheme. On paper and in theory, it is all right, but in practice, it means very little. It has been boosted out of all proportion. The Minister may come along and say that there are farms which could be acquired under that heading and that would be all right but the figure is boosted beyond all measure.

In so far as the relief of congestion is concerned, we have Fianna Fáil saying that you must have 40 to 45 acres of good land or its equivalent to provide an economic holding. We have Fine Gael saying 50 acres or its equivalent are necessary. From Donegal to Mayo, if that scheme were put into operation, it would mean at this very time a reduction of at least 50 per cent in the number of holdings in that part of the country. In some cases 300, 400 and 500 acres of mountainous land would be the equivalent of 40 acres of good land. From the official figures, we find that we have only 21,010 farmers who earn their living entirely from farming and another group from 120,000 to 140,000 who derive their livelihood partly from farming.

That is the only way we could relieve congestion—half the number of holdings. But where will the half who leave find the land? The Land Commission cannot create the land. We will say to all these people: "According to the latest scheme, we will value your farm: if it is valued for £1,000, we will give you a loan of £3,000; if it is valued at £3,000, we will give you £6,000; and if it is valued at £6,000, we will give you £9,000." Let us take County Mayo, undoubtedly, a great deal of congestion exists. If 100 farmers in County Mayo decide this morning to avail of the Minister's scheme and say: "We will ask him to get the Land Commission to buy our farms and then we will move out"—100 people will be moving out and buying new farms. But where will they find them?

We know that the number of farms on the market is small. You can go to Deputy O. J. Flanagan, auctioneer in Mountmellick and say: "Oliver, have you any farms?" or go along to the others in Kildare, Meath, or any other part of the country. There would be no use in going down to Cork because the number of farms on offer there is completely limited. What would be the position if at the same time, we had 100 from Cork, Kerry or Clare and these people were all moving around the country—the Minister has some specific term for that—for 12 months looking for available farms? Supposing our good friend, Deputy Oliver J. Flanagan, had a few farms on hands and that these 100 boys from Mayo came along to buy a farm at a public auction. What would the price be likely to be? This scheme, if it is examined closely, is not what it appears to be. It is a good piece of bluff and the Minister has succeeded in bluffing, in more or less boosting up this scheme today as if it were something which would uplift our small farmers and give them an opportunity of becoming big farmers overnight.

If I sell a farm in West Cork for £1,000, I borrow £3,000. If my farm is valued at £1,000, I have £4,000. I move out with my £4,000. What kind of a farm would I get in East Cork, Limerick or in any of the midland counties for that money? I would get an uneconomic farm. To buy any kind of an economic farm, I would need £10,000. Therefore, I should have a farm valued for at least £3,000 so that I could get a loan which would enable me, together with the price of my own farm, to buy an economic holding if such were available for sale. That is the case I have made already, that such farms are not available to the extent envisaged by this scheme. I get my loan; I am saddled with 7½ per cent interest on that loan, and 7½ per cent is a huge burden on a farmer starting off in a supposedly new holding. But I have to bear the interest of 7½ per cent.

I move off; if I am lucky enough, I buy my farm for £10,000. On my own farm at home I have about £500 value in stock; I have eight or nine cows, three or four heifers, a few sows and so on, but I would need four times that amount to start off on taking over my new farm, if it is three or four times better than the one I have left. I would need a couple of thousand pounds to buy tractors and other modern farming machinery. On the farm on which I am living at present, I do not need that type of equipment because it is a small farm; I can hire the machinery. But for this supposedly new holding, I would need to buy all that equipment, to buy additional cattle and anything else required.

Do you think this scheme will cover many people? I doubt it very much. I think it is another piece of bluff. If I felt that this scheme could contribute in some way towards the relief of congestion, I would be quite satisfied but it is being boosted out of all proportion. The Minister and his Department know very well how few people will benefit. I know a number will benefit, but it will be very small, and much smaller than that implied in the public statements and press conferences announcing such schemes. It is wrong and unfair for a Government Department to be exaggerating, particularly for their own benefit. It is only right that we should have this question fully explored in the most detailed manner possible, because of the exaggerated way in which it has been announced again and again by the Department.

There are hundreds of farmers down in West Cork who would love to be residing on a holding of 50 acres of good land, or its equivalent, but where are those holdings? Where are those holdings in County Cork—and I know that county fairly well? I have a fair knowledge of County Tipperary, Laois and the other midland counties. There may be some holdings with a fair acreage of land available for distribution. At 50 acres per holding, 1,000,000 acres of good land would give us 20,000 at the most, if you leave out altogether the local applicants and others who may be just as much entitled to this land as the people who would be brought in.

I do not want to labour this point but I think the main work of the Department of Lands during the past year has been to get across some kind of confidence trick, to work some kind of confidence trick on the people, with their scheme for removing the old age people, giving them their pensions and keeping them for the rest of their lives in their own homes and, supposedly, giving money to the farmers to buy holdings, when they come on the market. I shall not continue on that, in case some farmer down the country may have a different impression of this scheme. Some of them—a limited number, admittedly—have mentioned it to me and said: "If we see in the paper a good farm being sold out, what do we do? Do we go to the Land Commission and say: `There is a farm selling down in Deputy Corry's place; its possible price is about £10,000; will you give us the money to buy it'?"

The Minister must have had representations, because he has answered them in his introductory speech. He has told them he will not give them any money to buy those farms. He mentioned it specifically:

The intention is not that someone will walk into the Land Commission immediately some farm is advertised for sale and say he wants to buy it. This provision is intended to enable the Land Commission to pick out one or two progressive young farmers in a particular townland in a congested area and to tell them that, provided they leave their holdings for rearrangement amongst their neighbours, the Land Commission will be prepared to help them to buy good holdings in another area.

And they will give them 12 months to "shop around". That is the term the Minister, the Department, or whoever drafted this, used. You will have 12 months to "shop around" to ascertain whether you will be able to pick up a suitable holding.

That is unrealistic. I am sorry to have to make that statement but we have not the resources, the land or the means to achieve what has been set out here in theory, implying that it can be achieved. There is no need at all for the Minister or his Department to send inspectors to West Cork about getting people to exchange holdings. Everyone is approached who is supposed to have any influence at all by numerous congests with a view to getting an exchange of holdings from the Land Commission. There must be hundreds in South-West Cork and, I am sure, the west of Ireland in general. Nothing can be done for them. The Land Commission say: "We have no money". They are waiting year in year out, some of them for up to half a dozen years. They are told today: "Your case is under consideration" and next year: "Your case in under active consideration", and if you inquire about it, you are told: "There is nothing for them— no loan, no money to buy it, and in any case the land is not there".

Deputy Corry will be speaking after me, I am sure. Let him say how many farms are in East Cork for sale to congests from West Cork, Kerry or anywhere else. The Land Commission should adopt a different attitude to such people and not keep them waiting year in, year out, keeping them in suspense all the time from one election to another. That practice should stop, and if those people are not being considered for an exchange of holding, they should be told plainly: "Your application has been rejected", and no more about it. There is no justification for keeping people waiting for as long as half a dozen years as has happened.

I mentioned briefly the system of holding on to farms for two, three or four years. Let us look at the Examiner's Branch. How many of those gentlemen are there? Examiner's Branch, 11; Solicitors' Branch, 11. There is a farm in West Cork which has been with them for four years. If it were a local job, it would be finished in four days. It is not finished yet. There is no justification at all for the delay. Have we gone mad when these titles are being examined in the Examiner's Branch and the Legal Branch for two, three and four years? It is about time to stop it and not have this House voting money to put down the drain in wanton, wasteful, unproductive work. How many of these titles are over with the Land Commission supposedly for perfecting for years? The shortest time is two years. When a person sells privately, there is no trouble at all: everything is fixed up in a month. But with the Land Commission, with the Examiner's Branch, the Legal Branch and a thousand other people associated with the business, it takes years to do it. Why should these farms be held for two, three and four years? Seldom or never is there a change in the circumstances of the applicant in that period. There should be a change. I have advocated a change in the past and I will continue to advocate it in the future.

I do not want to deal further with the problems of the Land Commission. I have indicated as briefly as possible that I am very dissatisfied with their workings. A great deal of the money voted by this House towards work which the Land Commission is supposed to do is going down the drain. I believe the Minister and the people in charge of the authority are to blame. I know that the inspectors and others in the employment of the Land Commission are held up because they have no work to do; they have no money to buy land. Administration costs take up 33? per cent for the 1,062 people I mentioned, and surely to heavens that is out of all proportion, taking into account the nature and extent of the work of the Commission. What we need is people who will do jobs outside, help the small farmer who is looking for an extra bit of land, the cottier who is looking for a bit of land, deal with the people's problems with regard to holdings in general. We do not seem to be doing that. That is the type of work that should be done.

Finally, I want to say that coupled with my thanks to the Minister for dealing with a case I mentioned last year, I want to say that there are other similar cases and I want the Minister to look into them and fix them up also.

It is depressing to read the part of the Minister's statement dealing with forestry. It does not make pleasant reading for anybody, least of all for our forestry workers. The position is that we cannot get money to buy lands for afforestation or we cannot get money to keep our forestry workers in continuous employment. There is land suitable for forestry available in districts I know in south-west Cork. Of course it takes the Forestry Department a long time to buy land. They shop around—to use the term mentioned in the Minister's statement —for about 12 months or so. Then they shop around for a couple of years buying a piece of land that any person would buy in one visit or one day. We have the position that men who have worked for the Forestry Department for some time, who understand the work and who are now skilled in that type of employment, are told that there is no further employment for them. In my part of the country last week and the week before, eight men were told: "Be off with yourselves; we do not want you"—eight first-class capable men who felt that for years to come they had security of employment with the Forestry Department. None of the higher-ups was told: "We have no employment for you; be off with you", but the small fellow who had to go out planting, taking off his coat and doing the practical work is told to clear off. With all we hear about the availability of funds, the increase in taxation, it is difficult to understand why we could not at least retain the existing forestry staff. It is very unfair and unjust to dismiss these employees. A number of them will have no alternative but to take the boat for the place across, England.

With regard to this target of 25,000 acres, last year it was reduced to 20,000 acres. Last year we were told that we had the credit squeeze. We knew it was impossible to find money. We knew that the Government had a difficult period mainly of their own making and we were a bit reluctant to be too critical. When people are down, we do not like to kick them. Now we are told, facing the local elections, that they are up and that things are booming but this afforestation target is not supposed to be increased. It is still to remain at 20,000 acres. Surely if forestry means what it is supposed to mean according to the experts, that we are putting money in the bank for the future, we could at least keep the target as it was years ago instead of reducing it by 20 per cent?

I had hoped that with the maturing of our timber in the not too distant future in some areas we would be able to establish industries in towns adjacent to forests to process the timber. We were hopeful, seeing that West Cork and South Kerry are extensive forestry areas, that we would be able to establish such a processing plant in south-west Cork. The people down there have high hopes, but judging by the Minister's statement today it is unlikely that these hopes will ever be realised.

This is a gloomy Estimate. It is gloomy from the first word to the last. It is the same as last year's Estimate, except that there is a bit of sugar coating on it about taking over farms from old people, giving them pensions, making them comfortable, and lending them money to buy farms which are non-existent. That is the sugar coating. We will have the same kind of Estimate next year if the Minister is still there. It will be interesting to know how many of these old people will be in receipt of their pensions this time 12 months, and how many holdings will be re-arranged. It will be interesting to know how many people will get the loans the Government announced, and how many will be settled in good farms in areas with economic farms.

I really regret that my contribution has been rather pessimistic. It is easier to speak in this House or in any other place on a more optimistic note. I do not like people who are pessimistic; I do not like people who are always crying. I do not like people who are down at heart. I had hoped that matters would brighten. Last year I held back from mentioning some of these items, but I think I made a mistake. Last year I said that there was no use in being pessimistic and that the picture would change and brighten. That does not seem to be the case. As a Deputy, I felt obliged to make the statement I have made on this Estimate. I believe it to be a completely factual appraisal of the picture both in Lands and Forestry.

I have no intention of going on the same lines as my friend, Deputy Murphy. The Minister and Deputy Flanagan alluded to young men who have proved themselves successful in farming. I have one very glaring instance which I want to point out to the House, and it bears out my suggestion that there is apparently some rule in the Land Commission that if you have land, you can get more land, but if you have no land, you can get no land.

This is the case of a farmer's son who went to work and worked hard. He took land from the previous owners in a place called Bushey Park in Rosshill. The land was sold to a non-national who rented it to this farmer's son. The Land Commission came in and for the five or six years they held it, they also rented it to this farmer's son. Despite the fact that that man had proved he was a good farmer and worked his land, the Land Commission could not see their way to giving any portion of land to him, because he was what is known as a landless man. At present he is in Portlaoise, in Deputy Flanagan's constituency, because he was not prepared to get out. I appeal to the Minister to examine this case. If a young man, a farmer's son, can prove himself to be a success in farming, as this man did for the past 20 years, he should be entitled to something better than Portlaoise prison.

Would he not sign a bond.

He had stock there and could not get rid of it. There is also a holding of some 425 acres in a place called Finure, Aghada. I was very glad that the Government did their job and took over that holding, even if it cost five or six times what it was offered for to a previous Minister for Lands. This holding of 425 acres was offered to Deputy Blowick when he was Minister for Lands in the inter-Party Government for £7,000. It was refused and afterwards it was bought by an Englishman for £7,000. He sold it for £17,000 odd to a Corkman. The Corkman sold it to a German for £24,000. The Land Commission came in and I am proud to say that they put the "Gerry" out and took it over.

I, and colleagues of mine now gone, held a meeting down there when that farm was first put on the market. I saw the Aghada Hall packed with the children of those who were evicted from that holding. For four or five years, it has been in the hands of the Land Commission and I suggest it is time it was divided, particularly as the Land Commission lettings on that 425 acres have fallen into a rather funny pattern, a pattern adopted by another industrial firm as I suppose I should call them—the Lord between us and harm—holding some 2,000 acres nearby. I endeavoured to get the Land Commission to take them over and they refused. I refer to the oil refinery.

That holding of 425 acres is let by the Land Commission to one man. I do not believe he is knocking out the £23 to £25 an acre which Deputy Flanagan alluded to and for which apparently conacre land is going in his constituency. I do not know whether that is true, although I believe that Deputy Flanagan's constituency is a hotbed of those people about whom Deputy Clinton moans that they cannot live. If a man pays from £23 to £25 per statute acre for land and can apparently make it pay him, I am wondering what Deputy Clinton is moaning about. What use is he making of the land that enables him to pay £25 an acre for it? It is time it was divided up.

When we brought in the 1965 Act, Deputies referred to certain areas of congestion throughout the country which the Minister said he would sympathetically consider. In my own constituency there is an area stretching from Kanturk to Rockchapel. The Minister knows all about it. On one occasion I approached him in connection with a holding there. He took immediate action, secured that holding and divided it among the unfortunate men who lived around it on 15 statute acres of land. The Minister did a good job, a job that will redound to the credit of the Land Commission for evermore.

The Minister has a letter in his Department such as the Department of Lands never got before—a letter signed by every individual who got portion of that land saying they are all satisfied. If anyone were to tell me, with my 40 years' experience here, that any holding was ever divided before and everybody was satisfied, I would give him a medal. That whole stretch of country is a congested area. It is more congested than any portion of County Mayo, and that is a hard thing to say.

Apart from this blessing from God given to me on the last division of the constituency, this area from Kanturk to Rockchapel, I have another area which was always mine, Ballymacoda, the home of O'Neill Crowley. Congestion is so serious there that when the Land Commission came down to examine the situation after I had got them to buy one holding, they had to stop dividing the land and buy two more holdings to bring the tenants up to £21 valuation. A £21 valuation holding in Ballymacoda is 21 statute acres of land. Unfortunately, a gentleman long since dead got his nose into my constituency and the minimum valuation of land you will find there varies from 15/- an acre up to nearly 50/- an acre. We pay rates for Mickey Pat's country in order to keep them going. That land was let by the Land Commission for years. Last year they let it at an average of £5 or £5 10s per acre, very different from Deputy Flanagan's £23 to £25 per acre in Laois. Then they decided it was no good holding on to it any longer and they divided it up. The result is that those people are now getting land at from £7 to £7 10s per statute acre and in some cases £8 11s. No rackrenting landlord ever born could come to that figure.

I freely admit that if the Land Commission had not stepped in there those people would have been compelled to seek more remunerative employment elsewhere. And, thank God, they could get it. But if a man has to pay 70/- in the £ to 75/- in the £ per acre rates on land, and in addition pay £78 per acre for land, he might as well be in conacre all his life, even in Laois-Offaly. I sent that case to the Land Commission a fortnight ago and I would ask the Minister to examine it sympathetically. That is as much a congested area as any area in the West. Any area where you have to buy three farms in order to bring the people up to a 25 to 30 acre holding is a congested area. We all have these congested areas in our constituencies.

A couple of years ago within three miles of my place at Ballintubber, Carrigtwohill, another of Deputy O'Flanagan's friends, another German, succeeded in getting in. I had to get after the Land Commission to root him out. Then I found that there are 13 farmers within one mile of that holding whose maximum acreage is under 20 acres. This is in an area where you would think you would find no one but big farmers. It is as much a congested area as any place in the West. It is not because they are altogether in the West. In my travels there I found several areas of good land of 700 or 800 acres in the West. I wonder what the Land Commission are doing about them, because those are the places to take over.

Again, under the beneficent rule of Deputy Blowick, I was after a place, the Flower estate in Cloyne, a holding of 1,000 acres. Whatever kind of pull he had with the Land Commission, only five acres were acquired. I do not know how those things happen but they do happen, and they must be happening in the West or the 700 acre fellows would not be there with all those congests around them. These are matters I am anxious the Minister would deal with.

Deputy Flanagan made a complaint here about the Land Commission not taking over holdings. He mentioned the co-operation of the auctioneering profession. I would suggest that the auctioneering profession should go a step further and notify the Land Commission of holdings they have for sale, particularly pockets in the congested areas. They would be doing a good day's work. I do not sympathise with Deputy Flanagan's complaint because I think it is the Deputy's job to do it. Of course, if we had Deputies such as the Irish Times leader suggested yesterday, that is, gentlemen from Dublin being sent to the rural constituencies, I do not think they would do the job. The Irish Times, with the utmost contempt, alluded to the ordinary rural Deputy as a trouble-shooter and Man Friday. We may be trouble-shooters. Our job is to look after our constituents and to work for our constituents. I have not seen a non-resident Deputy being successful anywhere in rural Ireland because he is working Deputy Flanagan's five day week.

Is the Deputy suggesting I have a five day week?

A five day week is demanded for the forestry worker.

That is a different thing.

The poor old farmer works a seven day week.

I thought the Deputy was suggesting I had a five day week.

If Deputies did their work in their constituencies, every holding coming up for sale would be notified to the Land Commission. I am glad to say that the Minister follows up any case of which he is notified. I will give him that credit. The Minister gets after any land that is brought to his notice as coming on the market and where possible, the Land Commission purchase the land.

I have my own complaints to make and I make them here in the open. I do not think it right that a farmer's son who has been farming a Land Commission holding for two previous owners and has been farming it for the Land Commission for the past five or six years should be thrown into Mountjoy or Portlaoise prison and deprived of any acre of it now. I do not think that is justice and I therefore, bring the matter to the attention of the Minister here. Whatever holding is there should be given to the poor devil who made a success of it and who succeeded in knocking a livelihood out of it in the past 15 or 20 years.

I would call the Minister's attention to the fact that I have made three appeals here to have the Department step in in the case of the land at present held by the oil refinery in Whitegate and that has now been let on the worst possible conditions, having regard to what is considered good husbandry. Nobody can convince me that if 500 or 600 acres of land are let to a rancher from some other county and if he takes three or four grain crops off it, it will be any good for the person to whom it is given afterwards. That is what is happening. There are thousands of farmers living on holdings of under £20 valuation and I do not think it right that an industrial firm should be allowed to hold that acreage of land in that manner. I put that case here frankly. I do not think it is right that they should have that land and should let it year after year and that the good should be taken out of it.

Unfortunately, having regard to the kind of constituency I represent, I will be knocking at the Land Commission door fairly often. The whole area stretching from Kanturk to Rockchapel is a congested area and will have to be dealt with as such. In the Ballymacoda area, the Land Commission had to purchase three holdings before they could give a miserable holding of £21 valuation. A valuation of £21 may seem very big to some people in the West where the poor law valuation can be 5/- or even 1/-an acre. The poor law valuation of those holdings was fixed in the first instance by some lunatic at 15/- to 40/- a statute acre. We are paying rates on them and are carrying the rest of the county on our backs.

These are the complaints I have to make and I am asking the Minister to remedy them.

This morning when I came into the House, I had intended to make a few points but I find that Deputy Flanagan and Deputy Murphy have made them much more eloquently than I could. However, there are some things I should like to say. The principal one is that the people have lost faith in the Department of Lands because every time the Minister makes a statement giving these elaborate promises, the people see it on television or read it in the papers the next day and believe, wrongly, that these will automatically become law.

When the Minister said that it was his idea that an economic farm would be 45 acres, every smallholder in my constituency assumed that when the Land Commission had a piece of land to divide, they would get what would bring them up to 45 acres. In point of fact, if the Minister or if the Department were to give the smallholders in my constituency 45 acres each, the only way they could do it would be to evict one half of them—I do not know to where—because I do not think there would be 45 acres each for them, even in County Meath. The only solution I see for the Minister is to let his colleague in the Department of Agriculture do his worst, as he is now doing, and he will evict them successfully for him. However, that promise misled these people into believing that they would immediately get 45 acres of land.

They also believed that any farm that would go up for sale would automatically be acquired by the Land Commission. Every rural Deputy knows that when the local paper comes out, as it does in my constituency on a Thursday evening, there is a deputation to the local Deputy to go to the Land Commission "to have X farm acquired as it is now being offered for sale." The Land Commission, to give them their due, are very accommodating and, wherever possible, examine the farms and attend the auctions, but they are not able to buy it at an economic price, and it goes.

Even after the auction the local congests will complain that this farm was sold to such-and-such a person, a businessman—he is usually a businessman in my constituency; they are making a little bit of money and are able to buy some land. They want to get the sale stopped, but in no case in my constituency have I known the Land Commission actually to stop the sale of a farm. My constituents believe they have the power to do so. I think in the last Act they were given the power to do so, but it is never done. There was another promise which has created a lot of uneasiness, that is, that a progressive farmer who surrenders his farm to the Land Commission for redivision will be given a loan to enable him to buy land elsewhere. In any case I have been asked about, I have advised them against this because, first, I think the Land Commission will not give it and secondly even if they would give it, I have considered for the last number of years that money is the dearest thing to buy—to pay 7½ per cent on a loan to stock a farm and to get the prices we are now getting for our produce, both for our stock and our grain, is quite unrealistic. A farmer would end up in bankruptcy in no time. Anyway, I do not believe (a) that the Land Commission would have enough money to give those loans, and (b) that the land is available.

Another scheme the Minister set great store by was that under which old and infirm people would surrender their farms to the Land Commission, be allowed to live in their house and get a pension. I do not know if this scheme ever went into operation. I have seen no evidence of it in my constituency. I warned the Minister two years ago when it was introduced that the people in the west of Ireland regard their land as something a bit more special than they do on the east coast, that with the long tradition of land agitation, Land Leagueism and all that, to get the farmer to part with his few acres is practically impossible. It may be very poor; it may be very uneconomic, but it is all that he owns in the world. I would warn the Minister again not to set too much store by that pool of land being available, because it will not become available.

In my constituency the Land Commission have acquired a number of farms which in some cases were voluntarily surrendered, notably big farms. I view that with alarm because it proves that farming is not what it used to be—whenever the large farmers surrender their farms voluntarily. I have had complaints from these people who surrendered their lands that they have not been paid for years, literally for years. Usually on making representations, one is told there is something wrong with the title, but it seems to me slightly cockeyed that when a farmer sells his farm to the Land Commission, the Land Commission can move in and yet not pay. If it were a private individual, he would not get possession until he paid for the farm. The same law should obtain for the Land Commission. I cannot see why it takes the legal section of the Department of Lands so long to examine the title. I cannot see how the process can be all that complicated when solicitors in private practice can examine title within a shorter space of time. Maybe they are not doing it as well as they do it in the Department: I do not know.

Having acquired the land, the Land Commission let it for a number of years, I have heard some Deputies saying four or five years. I know one estate in my constituency which was acquired at the end of the war and which was only finally divided—parts of it were divided over the past 20 years—this year. This land was let and let and let, and it is a disgrace to look at. The farmers who get these farms now have to spend a lot of money to try to bring them up to any reasonable standard.

The price per acre for land seems to have gone up considerably, as much as £7 per acre. Only last week a constituent returned 20 acres of land which had been allotted to him by the Land Commission. He said he would be a lot better off without any land at that price. He found that after buying cattle and then not selling them he could not keep the land.

£7 an acre?

It is £13 6s. in Meath.

West of the Shannon we are poor farmers. I do not want to criticise everything the Land Commission do, because I believe they are an excellent body. They should be given more scope and a more efficient Minister. He is a lot to blame. The Department of Lands is the Cinderella of Government Departments. When Ministers are shuffled around whoever happens to fall into Lands stays there. The Land Commission do a lot of good work. The fact that they can go into the open market and compete with the ordinary buyer is a good thing because the seller is as much entitled to a just price, an economic price, from the Land Commission as from a private buyer. Why should the Land Commission pay him less than a private buyer?

People are very distrustful of land bonds, and it is hard to blame them. As Deputy Murphy said, one issue dropped to a point as low as 76½. That was a disaster for those who sold to the Land Commission. People would be deterred from voluntary surrendering their farms if they thought they might drop this fearful amount of money. Then if the Land Commission give a greater price than the farm is worth to make up for the drop in the bonds, the incoming tenants would pay more, so it is a vicious circle.

Before passing from the subject of the Land Commission, I should like to say here in the House, because it is the only place you can really say these things, that the Land Commission employees—I mean the inspectors and all the other officials there—are the hardest working civil servants of the lot. They are terribly overworked and they never get anything but abuse from the general public. I have heard here in the House the most violent criticism of the officials of the Department of Lands. In the ten years I have been a Deputy, I have never found them anything but most courteous and helpful. I go to the Land Commission office every Monday morning in Galway and very often visit the Land Commission in Merrion Street. I find the officials most helpful and more than anxious to facilitate constituents as well as Deputies. I should like to go on record as thanking them for that because, very often, we get complaints about them and it is ony fair that the other side should be mentioned, too.

Afforestation is very important in the West. It gives good employment. Last year I was disturbed by the number of forestry employees who were let go. We told them it was because of the credit squeeze and things would grow brighter in the future but, judging by the Minister's statement this morning, there is no sign of brightening in the Forestry Division. That is a great pity. Forestry has two merits. Not only does it give employment and produce timber for commercial consumption but it beautifies the country.

I should like the people engaged in forestry to be more imaginative in their planting. I know evergreens grow quicker and give a quicker return but, if one travels over quite the most beautiful drive in my constituency from Loughrea to Woodford, one literally gets sick of Christmas trees. They are all the same and they can be very dull. I do not see why some beech, ash and oak should not be grown. In my constituency at the moment it is practically impossible to find an oak tree and this was an area renowned for its big trees. I know these are slow-growing and, if they are planted, it is our heirs who will enjoy them, but it is an approach that should be considered, even from the long-term point of view.

The county council when carrying out road-widening in Galway cut down most beautiful trees. That is done in the cause of progress. I do not think landowners adjoining the road can be compelled to replant if trees are removed for road-widening purposes, but I think they should be encouraged to replant. There is not enough planting of trees in the private sector. Now that turf has become expensive to buy and turf-cutting expensive to do, one finds farmers cutting down the odd tree here and there. The result is the country is being denuded of trees. More assistance should be given to private individuals to encourage planting, planting not only of quick-growing trees but also of those which beautify the countryside.

I am glad to note more money is being provided for Game Councils. The preservation of game is very important. Unfortunately game has been allowed to die out and a great deal of restocking needs to be done to bring it back again. Its destruction was inevitable following on the breaking up of the big estates and the disappearance of gamekeepers. Restocking ceased. In this connection, again, forestry is important because, unless you have trees, you will not have game. The State forests are no advantage because they are too thickly planted and one cannot shoot through them. If game are not shot, then there is no proper culling and too many are as bad as too few ultimately. More private planting would be an advantage here, private planting of three or four trees on a farm to provide cover for game. That would help the development and preservation of game.

The Minister would be well advised to encourage private planting. Trees raise the temperature and, from that point of view, trees are very important in the West where we get all the cold winds and there is need of shelter for both man and beast. Denuding the countryside of trees makes farms very cold. If there is private planting, there will be shelter for stock and cover for game, to say nothing of the aesthetic value of beautifying the countryside. All these considerations should be taken into account. I am sorry no Fianna Fáil Deputies from my constituency have graced the House this morning. They are splendid at promising the farmers that land will be acquired and divided but here is the place in which to criticise or advise instead of spending their time in their constituency and doing little or nothing here in the House.

I should like the Minister to look into the question of the long delay in paying for land acquired by the Land Commission and to speed up the division of land. People have become dispirited and disheartened. As one man said: "It is 15 years since I first applied for land and, if they do not give it to me quickly, they need not bother because I will have to emigrate". When people get into that frame of mind, they think nothing is worth doing. If the acquisition were speeded up and if land acquired were paid for more quickly, there would be less discontent because the anxiety now felt by many of my constituents would be relieved.

I should like to make a very brief comment on what Deputy Corry said: apparently Deputy Corry has had great success in bringing to the notice of the Land Commission farms which in his opinion, should be taken over in his area and he told us that in every case these farms have been taken over and have been divided. I wish I could boast of the same success. Possibly I misunderstood him, but I think he said these farms were brought to the notice of the Land Commission through the Minister for Lands.

Now I believe that Deputies should not—I repeat, should not—bring matters of this kind to the notice of the political head of a Department. This is a matter which should be dealt with through the Department officials and, for that reason, I have not burdened either the present Minister or any of his predecessors with lists of farms in my area which should be divided, but I have sent a considerable number of them, at the request of constituents, to the Land Commission. I am afraid I cannot boast of the same success as Deputy Corry because I usually get a very brusque acknowledgement that the matter has already either been brought to the notice of the Land Commission or the Land Commission take note of it and will have the matter investigated.

Unless I follow the matter up with a further letter, I may not get any further information and, if I do get some further communication, it is invariably a reply telling me that the discussions or negotiations are of such a confidential nature that it would not be in the public interest to tell me what is happening. In many cases nothing happens. If the person who owns the farm is anxious either not to continue to allow it to be used for conacre or to leave it lying there—some are not using the land at all, as was brought to the notice of the House—if he is anxious to sell, as happened recently—I will enlarge on this later—the Department will take note of it, and then just do nothing further. It is that sort of thing which makes people lose confidence in the Land Commission.

There is something wrong. There may be a reason for all this but, if there is, surely we ought to be told what the reason is? Surely a Member of this House who brings to the notice of the Land Commission a particular situation is entitled, out of ordinary courtesy, to be told that the position is such that no interference can take place or that they propose to acquire the farm and what they do afterwards is a matter for the Land Commission?

I will go further and say that there is one particular case where a farm was brought to the notice of the Land Commission by me. Several weeks later the farm was sold to the biggest farmer in the area. When I raised the matter again, the Land Commission said they were under the impression they made an offer to the man who was selling it and that he was considering it. I then communicated with them and said he could not be considering it because a neighbouring farmer had bought it. They informed me that he could not do that and that the Land Commission proposed to do something about it. But they did not. They just allowed the man with the biggest farm in the area to become the man with nearly the biggest farm in County Meath. I am sure it was a coincidence that the man selling it was from west of the Shannon. I would not for a moment accuse the Minister in relation to the permission which was granted but it does appear peculiar——

The Deputy is willing to wound but afraid to strike.

Does that wound the Minister—because I can wound him?

The Deputy is welcome to do so.

I do not believe in personalities in this House, but if the Minister wants them, he will get them from me.

If the Deputy has a charge to make about this farm, let him make it.

I have made the charge in writing to the Minister's Department. I will make this charge and further charges here if the Minister wants to go to that level. The Minister will not bluff his way out of this. He will not with me get away with some of the things he can get away with with other people. I will not take it from him. The sooner he realises that, the better for himself.

I am worried.

The Minister will be worried before I am finished and he will have good reason. The farm I am referring to is the McCormick farm at Dunshaughlin. The man was allowed to sell it, despite the fact that it was brought to the notice of the Land Commission in good time and despite the fact that the biggest farmer in the area was allowed to purchase it. When I inquired about the matter locally, I was given this reason: "Sure, we all knew it would happen. Mr. McCormick is a Mayoman and we knew the Land Commission would not interfere."

Go bhfóire Dia orainn.

Does the Parliamentary Secretary wish to speak? The charge is made from time to time that the Land Commission do appear, when acquiring farms and particularly when dividing farms, to take great notice of the politics of the people with whom they are dealing.

I have always, on every occasion when I was approached by somebody anxious to get land, to point out two things to them. If I considered they were people to be recommended, I would send that recommendation to the Department and I would always point out that I believed there should be no political interference in land division and that nobody should get a farm of land because he supported Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael or Labour. I have always made that clear to them and I will make it clear in this House. I believe that that is the standard which should be accepted by everybody.

When one looks at the list of people who do get farms, it is difficult to understand if that standard is accepted by everybody else. People will go to Fianna Fáil cumann meetings. Recently, half a dozen fellows who are members of my party said to me: "You will not mind if we do not attend meetings for a few months. There is a farm being divided in the area. If we are seen going into it, we shall not get any of the land, but if we go to the Fianna Fáil meetings, we shall almost certainly qualify for some land". Some of them went to the Fianna Fáil meeting and some of them got some land.

A good each way bet.

A good each way bet. I believe, and I want to make this very clear, that nobody should interfere with land division. If the Land Commission are handling it themselves, there should be no interference. There should not be any rigging of the division of land. Nobody should be told how to go about qualifying for it when he would not normally qualify. The Minister referred to the amount of land available. We all understand that there is not an amount of land in this country that would give farms to everybody who desire them. We also know that if the standard set by the Minister and by his predecessor as the correct amount of land to ensure a viable holding for everybody—between 40 and 45 acres of mixed land—were adhered to, there would be more land for everybody looking for it.

Speaking for County Meath, where we have seen some people over the past 20 years getting anything from 100 to 150 acres, do not tell me that it was because they gave away big holdings where they were living. In some cases they did so but in other cases they did not. In some cases, they have given away very substantial holdings. The compensation they get for it is a holding not as big but of equal value in County Meath and the land they give away is used to re-arrange holdings, and so on. If this is the only way to get them to move, I suppose it must be done but there are occasions when people who do not give away land are given holdings in County Meath. Inspectors visit people looking for land. It is a good bet for people to visit as many of the people in the local area as possible and to give them all the impression that they will get some land because then there is no question of anybody kicking up a row when the land is divided. Deputy Corry referred to people who got portion of a farm of land that was divided and he said that for the first time everybody was satisfied. Everybody who got the land was satisfied but no reference was made to those who did not get the land.

A farm was divided in County Meath some years ago and, from discussing the matter with some of the local people, it would appear that it was divided in a most peculiar way. An old man of about 80 years of age who already had too much land got 30 acres. Three single men from the far end of the county got 150 acres, and so on. The local people did not get it. I inquired about the matter from the local Garda sergeant. I asked him if he thought it was well done. He replied: "Yes, I divided it." I asked him how that came about. He replied: "I am very friendly with another member of the Force in another area who is a very close friend of an inspector in the Land Commission who made recommendations."

I have heard it all now. The Garda sergeant is dividing it.

A farm was divided recently. A man with a few cows started to build up his herd and by the time the farm was being divided —it had been under consideration for about 20 years—he had built up a sizeable herd. He was rearing a family of nine on it and he was giving some employment. He was living in a lodge attached to the farm. When the farm was divided, he was told, literally, to get out. He got none of the farm. I suppose it was because, as the Minister said to me here last year or the year before when I inquired about a similar type of farm, a dairy farmer like this is not a farmer. That man was making a living out of agriculture. He was taking not alone grass on the farm itself but anywhere around in order to get enough to feed his cows but that did not come under consideration. He was just dumped out. There is another man in almost similar circumstances living at the other end of the county. A farm was divided beside him. He was in the same position. He was a man who had not any land of his own but who was using a considerable amount of land and he did not get any.

Time and again the Minister has taunted me with being anti-migrant but I want to make it clear to him, and to anyone else who is interested, that I am against bringing anybody into the constituency I represent as long as there are eligible people there who need land. That includes those who have already come in and have got less land than they are able to live on. There is nothing wrong with that view, and if the Minister lived in County Meath, he would appreciate it just as much as I do. The position in Meath, which is the only place about which I can speak with authority, is that the inspectors seem to make some extraordinary choices. Usually some of the local people get a small bit of land and those who come in from outside get the balance of the estate. In some cases they get nearly all the estate. I would be interested to know, if the Minister could tell me, why it is agreed that a man who is attempting to live on a very small acreage in a congested area is entitled to a transfer of holding, while a man who is attempting to work a small bit of land, or who has stock and is attempting to work land on conacre in the area in which land is being divided, and who because he cannot live on what he is making has to go out to work, and even though he knows everything there is to know about agriculture, is not entitled to land.

We also have the peculiar situation which I brought to the notice of the Land Commission last week where a man who came to Meath some years ago got a farm valued at £7,000. He remained there until he had it vested and then he moved back to whence he had come and now the farm is with the local auctioneer for sale. At the time he got the farm, a number of local people were anxious to get it because when the farm was being divided, the house was not built and this farm was not given out until after others. Now this man expects to pick up £7,000. Deputy Mrs. Hogan O'Higgins referred to the scandalous price for land being divided and referred to the fact that people in her constituency who got farms were asked to pay an annuity of £7 an acre. I had a question down a few weeks ago in regard to a farm in Meath which was let by the Land Commission at £10 per Irish acre. The Land Commission decided to divide it and the unfortunate tenants are being asked to pay £13 6s. annuity per statute acre.

I do not know whether the people who regulate the prices and make decisions like this really know the circumstances or whether they merely stick to the letter of the rules and say that this is what it must be. When these people have their rates paid on top of the £13 6s. and have the land stocked or worked, they will have very little for themselves for many years to come. I am sure the Minister will trot out the hoary old tale about the £20 per acre people are giving for conacre, but in this particular case all his Department could get was £10 per statute acre and still £13 6s. was considered a fair annuity.

When the Land Act was passing through this House in 1965, I accused the Minister of deliberately putting in a section designed to discourage local people in the midlands and in the east from looking for land because it would be made too dear for them. He said that that was not so. The fact that they must pay the full annuity while migrants are entitled to half the annuity shows that what I said was correct and that that was the object of putting in this section. We know that there is not an endless supply of land in the pool but we also know that there is a lot of land which could usefully be taken over by the Land Commission and divided. Whether or not the Minister is prepared to listen to me, I want to tell him that in County Meath, as in many other areas, there are congested districts as bad as anywhere else in the country, where people are attempting to live on very small farms and who would like either to get a transfer or an additional holding. People living beside a farm some of which they used for conacre should be considered but they are getting very little consideration at present.

On a number of occasions I have referred to the provision of a cow plot and if there are people with cows who require such plots, it is criminal that they should be refused the right to get a small portion of land on which to graze cows. We have been told that this will be considered but in no case that I know of has this been done. It is most unfair.

I should also like to refer to the question of housing. When the Land Commission take over a farm, they should do two things: notify the local authority that they are taking it over and be prepared to make available to the local authority the most convenient site for housing. There was an instance recently in Meath where a farm was taken over and there was a site running right into the village which was not made available but a further site which was made available was quite a distance away and was far more difficult to service. This was just because someone did not want to draw a line in a certain way on the map.

I am surprised that the Minister was right and I was wrong when during the passage of the Land Act, we discussed the question of old people giving up their holdings. I did not think that some of the old people would be interested in giving up their holdings in order to get an annuity. The Minister says that up to 400 have applied and I am glad the Minister has been proved right. I should also be interested to hear from the Minister later on in the year the exact number who have concluded arrangements for taking up the annuity rather than leaving it as it is.

On a number of occasions I have referred to this matter of acknowledgments from the Land Commission. I always find when I discuss something with the officials of the Land Commission that they are most courteous, with one exception. Quite recently I inquired about a farm which had been sold by a spendthrift son of a farmer to an old man for £1,000, on the condition that if the £1,000 could ever be produced again, the old man would pass it back. Eventually another brother produced the £1,000 and the old man was prepared to make arrangements for it to go through, but because somebody had consolidated two holdings, the Land Commission had to look into the matter. They were considering allowing the division and I was told I would be notified when it was done. I was told that they would be able to inform me in about a week's time.

I telephoned again in a week's time and asked for further information. On this occasion a gentleman came to the telephone and he went as near as he could to telling me to mind my own business. The civil servant who makes that sort of reply or takes that sort of attitude with a Member of this House should be dealt with. Most of the officials, indeed all of them that I met up to that, with whom I discussed any matter treated me most courteously, apart from this one exception. It would be a great pity if that sort of thing crept into the Land Commission's approach to outsiders, whether public representatives or not.

The replies people get who make representations themselves are very flimsy affairs. If Deputies make representations, they get a stencilled acknowledgment with something written into it. There should be a little more detail given in the replies. It would be very easy to give it. When a Deputy makes representations, he gets an acknowledgment and unless he inquires further, he gets no further communication. That is a mistake.

Reference has been made in a number of cases to the question of roads. When the Department of Lands with the Land Commission are developing an area, the roads they put in should first be cleared with the local authority because you still have a situation where the Land Commission will run a road into the middle of a field where it cannot be extended and must eventually be taken over and serviced by the local authority to whom it is very little use. If the matter were considered in conjunction with the local authority in advance, quite possibly some arrangement could be made to have a useful road put there in correct alignment and correct direction. The same applies to water supplies about which the Land Commission are trying to do something, without much success up to now.

The Minister referred to gratuities to employees of farms who are being laidoff because of the division of land. It appears that the average amount given was £241; some got much less and some a little more. Would the Minister like to say what he thinks anybody would be able to do with that amount when he has lost a job he may have had for a considerable time? Does the Minister think that the handing out of a sum, which in most cases represents roughly the value of one acre of land on the estate which has been divided, is a proper way to treat employees on these farms? Does he know that the Land Commission consider only people who are working on the farms when the Land Commission finally take over and that people who may have lost their jobs in preceding months because of the impending take-over are usually excluded? This is a case where, I suppose, those running the Department feel that if £240 or £250 were given ten years ago the figure should not be altered. In view of the fact that compensation has been given for the loss of a job by an ordinary wardsman by the Department of Health last year to the extent of nearly £3,000 the figure of over £200 to a farm labourer is a little short of ridiculous. When you have the question of getting another house in many cases and resettlement in a job and a new way of life for many of them, £240 or even three times that amount would not represent real compensation for them.

The Minister says he is going to build houses by bigger contracts. Again, I am slightly suspicious about this because up to now building of houses has been done either by small contract or direct labour. Does this mean that some of the consortium will be knocking around to get a contract for Land Commission houses and then we shall have the same circle getting all this work again and again? Some years ago the Land Commission decided they would do something like that, get a certain amount of work done by contract, and they put in a provision that the man getting the contract should have a certain type of machinery. Strangely enough, some fellow did turn up who had that type of machinery.

You will find that he is a member of Taca now.

You could take a levy from him.

It might be a little small for Taca members. I should like to switch from this for a moment to cover two points regarding forestry and the Land Commission. While discussions on minor matters between Land Commission and forestry section officials and trade union officials have been reasonably successful and labour relations at that level are good, labour relations on the general level could not be much worse. Once again I repeat —and it is becoming rather hoary now—that on 11th February, 1965, a discussion took place with officials of the forestry division and the Land Commission on certain items concerning conditions of employment. We were told the matter would be further considered but we still have not got a decision on them. I should like to ask what other organisations except the State could get away with that. Yet, Ministers are preaching about the necessity for good labour relations. The only reason why they have not given a decision in this case is that they feel the people concerned are workers who cannot gain anything by going on strike. If they could, there would be a very quick decision.

It is a bit odd that we should be told, for instance, that while sick pay schemes operate in practically every section of public employment they still have not been brought into operation by the Department of Lands. While we are told by the Minister for Finance that his Department recently decided to introduce some kind of sick pay scheme for those workers and that the trade unions would be notified about it, we have not since heard one word. This is a typical example of what is happening in these matters.

There is also the question of a pension scheme for long-term employees. There is what is known as a Treasury warrant which applies on the retirement or death of a worker after long service. He gets a week's pay for seven years' service up to 15 and two weeks' pay if over 15 years but there is no question of a gratuity by right and no question about a pension no matter what his service may be. Surely this would not be tolerated anywhere except in State employment? Yet, they get away with it and we are told it is not included in the changes which the Minister for Finance spoke about.

Is that what they call it—a Treasury warrant?

Yes, but that is not their fault because the fact is that it is so called because it is handed down from the time it actually was a Treasury warrant. That dates it.

And we are marching back into the Treasury with our heads up.

Further, in this document we are discussing there is no word about any extra money being provided to cover the matter of sick pay and so we must assume that it will be quite some time before the Department get around to further consideration of the matter.

I am glad that Deputy Faulkner, Parliamentary Secretary, is here because this matter was raised by way of question when he was acting Minister for Lands some weeks ago, the question of holiday pay for forestry and Land Commission workers. The forestry people in particular have introduced a system whereby they start holidays on a Saturday morning. Saturday not being a working day, and proceed in the following week to count Saturday in again for the purpose of holidays. They are the only employers in the country who take two non-working days out of the ordinary week's holidays. To rectify this matter all that requires to be done is to start on Monday morning. Workers normally start on Monday morning as the men do not usually work on Saturday in any case. For some extraordinary reason they start the outdoor worker's holidays on Saturday but I am quite sure that the hard-working civil servants, as Deputy Mrs. Hogan O'Higgins described them and I am not criticising them, start on Monday morning and get full value for whatever holidays attach to their posts. In addition the manner in which the holiday period is made up would bear further examination because it appears the workers do not get full value for the amount of holiday pay they are entitled to. This situation has caused enormous discontent among forestry and Land Commission workers and it should be dealt with quickly.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
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