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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 4 Jul 1967

Vol. 229 No. 9

Committee on Finance. - Social Welfare (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill, 1967: Second Stage.

I move that the Bill be now read a Second Time.

Deputies will have seen from the explanatory memorandum circulated with the text that this Bill includes the provisions necessary to give legislative effect to the decisions of the Government announced by the Minister for Finance in his Budget Statement of 11th April last in regard to social welfare matters. These were to increase the rates of non-contributory old age, blind and widows' pensions and unemployment assistance, to increase the rates of various social insurance benefits and pensions, to extend the duration of unemployment benefit and to increase the rates of social insurance contributions. In addition the Bill includes a number of provisions aimed at bringing about miscellaneous improvements, extensions and amendments in the existing social insurance and assistance schemes. Some of these changes are consequential on developments and new legislation in related fields, for example, the initiation of training schemes under An Chomhairle Oiliúna and the forthcoming introduction of a redundancy payments scheme; others are the outcome of reexamination of existing provisions such as the amendment of the trade dispute clause in regard to disqualification for unemployment benefit and assistance and the repeal of the special residence or employment test for unemployment assistance in the case of persons moving into certain urban areas.

The Bill is fairly long and, of necessity, it is drafted mainly on the basis of amendments to the existing Acts. This obviously leads to difficulty in understanding and following the amendments which refer to existing provisions of the Acts without giving them in detail. I have had the explanatory memorandum issued with the Bill made as detailed and informative as possible so as to make clear what each amendment really does where the text of the Bill itself is not self-explanatory. I trust that Deputies will find the memorandum of assistance to them in their consideration of the Bill.

The Budget increases on the social assistance side, which it is proposed to bring into operation at the beginning of August next, will provide an extra 5/-a week for all existing non-contributory old age, blind and widow pensioners. It is estimated that some 111,000 persons who are old age or blind pensioners will qualify for the increase and some 21,000 widows. As a result of these increases in the pension rates, it is possible again to extend the scale of means and rates of pension in each case so as to add an additional rate at the minimum of each scale payable to persons previously just outside the means limit for any pension. As a result, the scale for an old age pensioner without a qualified child will be extended to £169 15s Od and a married pensioner with no qualified child could thus have means assessed at £339 10s Od and still qualify for the minimum rate of old age pension. The means limit, of course is raised in respect of each qualified child. The position in regard to widows' pensions is similar.

The rates of unemployment assistance for persons in urban and rural areas are being increased by 5/- a week for the recipient himself. A further 5/-will be payable where there is an adult dependant. These increases in rates of unemployment assistance at the maximum will have the effect of automatically extending the means limits for qualification for unemployment assistance by equivalent amounts, thus making eligible for assistance persons who were previously somewhat outside the limits.

The increases in payments of Social Insurance benefits and pensions will become operative at the beginning of January next and will provide an extra 5/- a week for recipients of disability benefit, unemployment benefit maternity benefit, widows' (contributory) pension and old age (contributory) pension with an additional 5/- a week where an adult dependant's allowance is payable with the pension or benefit. In addition, it is proposed to extend the period over which a person can draw unemployment benefit from the maximum of 156 days at present to 312 days in the case of persons over 18 years, including certain married women. The additional 156 days benefit will be payable at the normal increased unemployment benefit rates for persons who have good records of employment as measured by the yearly average of forty employment contributions paid over the preceding seven years. For those who do not have an average of forty on this basis unemployment benefit will be paid in the additional period at rates equivalent to the increased maximum rate of unemployment assistance payable in urban areas. The cost of the increases in benefit rates in a full year is estimated at £3,016,000, while the cost of the extension of unemployment benefit is estimated at £2,107,000.

In order to meet the cost of these increased rates and extensions of the social insurance scheme, it is necessary to increase the contributions payable by employers and employees. As mentioned by the Minister for Finance in his Budget Statement, the taxpayer in this country is bearing a higher ratio of the cost of social welfare than in other countries, mainly because assistance services, which are financed wholly by the Exchequer, represent a higher proportion of our total outlay. Even in the insurance services the Exchequer bears a higher proportion of the cost than in other European countries and in recent years the proportion borne by the Exchequer has exceeded even the one-third which it was the intention that the taxpayer would contribute to the Social Insurance Fund when the scheme was set up under the Social Welfare Act, 1952. In fact, in recent years the contribution has been nearer to 40 per cent than 33? per cent.

In order to rectify this position the Government have decided that the whole annual cost of the extension of unemployment benefit. £2,107.000, should be borne in full by employers and employees and that employers' and employees' contributions should cover more than two-thirds of the cost of the benefit increases in a full year. The increases in the rates of Social Insurance contributions which it is proposed to make in the Bill will thus be 3/2d a week on the ordinary rate of contribution for men, 1/7d to be paid by the employer and 1/7d by the employee. This will make the rate of contribution in question 18/- a week shared equally by the employer and the employee, to which must be added the 2/1d paid by the employer in respect of occupational injuries insurance. The increases in rates of contributions for other classes of workers will be 3/2d a week, again shared equally by employer and employee where all the insurance benefits are involved with appropriately lesser increases where some only of the benefits of the scheme are covered. A table showing the present and proposed rates of contribution appears in the explanatory memorandum. The increase in the rate of voluntary contribution covering widows' and orphans' pension only will be 4d and will be 9d in the contribution which covers also old age (contributory) pension. It is estimated, on the basis of this year's estimates of expenditure plus the extra annual costs and the expected yield of the increases proposed in contribution rates in a full year, that the Exchequer contribution would still be of the order of 35.8 per cent of the expenditure from the Social Insurance Fund.

The various social welfare schemes are constantly under review and where shortcomings, anomalies or other defects are or become evident, it has been the policy to make whatever amendments and modifications are necessary and feasible each year to improve matters. As in the case of Social Welfare Bills introduced over the past few years, this Bill includes a number of provisions involving miscellaneous changes, some big and some of lesser importance in the various schemes.

One of the more important of these changes is that in relation to the disqualification of persons disemployed by reason of a stoppage of work arising from a trade dispute at their place of employment. At present these people are disqualified for receiving unemployment benefit or assistance irrespective of whether or not they are involved in the dispute. It is proposed in the Bill, at sections 8 and 15, to modify this disqualification which has been the subject of considerable criticism for a number of years. The amendment proposed in the Bill has been agreed with the Irish Congress of Trade Unions on the understanding that the matter will be subject to review. The modification does not, of course, affect the position of the persons who involve themselves in a trade dispute by refusing to pass pickets.

Again, in regard to unemployment, there has been since 1933 a restriction on the payment of unemployment assistance to persons moving from rural areas into certain urban areas unless they can satisfy a special residence or employment test. This test was first introduced to discourage persons from moving from rural areas into any of the urban centres where the rates of unemployment assistance were at that time considerably more attractive. This argument is no longer of significance and the restriction of the free movement of workers is regarded as undesirable in the context of modern thought on the mobility and availability of labour. Apart from this aspect, the Government have accepted a number of recommendations contained in the Report of the Commission on Itinerancy including one that any difficulties in the way of payment of social welfare allowances should as far as possible be eliminated. The special test is one such difficulty in the case of itinerants settling in urban areas and it is now being removed by section 14 of the Bill.

There are, at present, provisions in the Social Welfare Acts which disqualify for unemployment benefit for a period not exceeding six weeks, a person who loses his employment through misconduct or who voluntarily leaves his employment without just cause or refuses an offer of suitable employment or who fails or neglects to avail himself of any reasonable opportunity of obtaining suitable employment. The unemployment assistance code has a similar type of disqualification for up to three months. It is proposed—also in sections 8 and 15 of the Bill—that corresponding disqualifications should apply in the case of a person who refuses or fails without good cause to avail himself of any reasonable opportunity of receiving training courses provided by An Chomhairle Oiliúna as suitable in his case.

Again, on this question of the training courses provided by An Chomhairle Oiliúna, it has been accepted that a person could be injured in the course of such training. These persons at present could not be regarded as being in insurable employment for the purposes of occupational injuries benefit. It is proposed in section 16 of the Bill to provide that unemployed persons attending a course of training provided or approved by An Chomhairle Oiliúna will be deemed while so attending to be in insurable employment for occupational injuries purposes and to be so employed by An Chomhairle Oiliúna, who will pay the insurance contributions required by such insurance.

Two other provisions of the Bill relate to the effect which payments under the proposed redundancy payments scheme, which is at present the subject of legislation before the House, would have on those social welfare payments where there is a means test. In sections 12 and 13 it is proposed to disregard payments under the proposed redundancy payments scheme in the assessment of means for the purposes of non-contributory old age, blind and widows' pensions and unemployment assistance. The purpose of this is to ensure that payments under the redundancy payments scheme will not adversely affect persons entitled to benefit under the various social welfare schemes.

The existing provisions of the Social Welfare Acts in relation to social insurance have been modified by regulations in the case of teachers in national schools, vocational schools and secondary schools who are employed in a permanent and pensionable capacity so that they are insured only for the purposes of widows' and orphans' pensions. Teachers employed in new comprehensive schools established by the Minister for Education are not covered by these modifications and there is no power in the Acts to enable them to be thus excepted from full insurance. It is proposed in section 7 of the Bill to remedy the position and to enable these teachers to be treated for social insurance purposes in the same way as national teachers, vocational teachers and secondary teachers.

The last of the miscellaneous provisions is to remove an undesirable effect which an entry into insurance for the purpose of occupational injuries insurance only could have on a person's title to old age or widows' (contributory) pension. The contribution conditions for these pensions are related to insurance from the date of entry into insurance. Contributions payable during a period when a person is insured for occupational injuries purposes only do not count towards satisfying the conditions for pension and, consequently, if the entry into insurance for occupational injuries purposes were to be taken into account for pension purposes, it could adversely affect title to pension by diluting the effective insurance over a period during which the person could not pay contributions for pension purposes. Section 11 of the Bill, therefore, provides that the entry into insurance for occupational injuries cases only will be ignored for pension purposes and a person shall be regarded as entering insurance for pension purposes on the day on which he first becomes an employed contributor paying contributions which count for those purposes. This, in effect, will restore the position to what it was before occupational injuries insurance was introduced.

I do not think that I need go into any greater detail at this stage as I feel sure that the explanatory memorandum will have given Deputies a very good picture of the proposals in the Bill and of their effects. It might, however, be helpful to Deputies if I were to summarise the cost of the various proposals in the Bill. On the social assistance side, the total cost will be £1,980,000 in a full year. The extension of the duration of unemployment benefit will result in savings on unemployment assistance estimated at some £1,500,000 in a full year but much of this saving will be required to meet the extra expenditure on unemployment assistance arising from the abolition of Employment Period Orders. The gross cost of the improvements in the Social Insurance Scheme will be £5,123,000. Allowing for an increased annual income to the Social Insurance Fund of £4,380,000 to be raised from the increases in rates of contributions, the cost to be met by the Exchequer will be £743,000 in a full year.

I have much pleasure in recommending this Bill to Dáil Éireann and I would ask for a speedy and favourable consideration of it.

Cuireann Fine Gael fáilte roimh an mBille seo. Ba bhréa linn a chloisint ón Aire go raibh súil aige feabhas a dhéanamh ar an seanphinsean agus nios mó airgid a sholáthair do bhaintreabhaigh agus glacadóirí eile. Ag an am gcéanna ni féidir a rá go dtabharfaidh na feabhsanna seo a ndóthain do dhaoine i ndeireadh a saol. Níl ins an dul chun chinn seo ach cúiteamh maidir leis an ardú costáis maireachtála.

Five shillings a week is offered this year to relieve the hardpressed, less privileged members of our community at a time when the official statistics indicate that the cost of living for the same pensioners and social welfare recipients has increased by no less than 4s 3d in the past 11 months. There are still some weeks to go before the recipients of non-contributory pensions will get any relief but they have been required for many months past to meet the cruel increases in the cost of living without any assistance whatsoever from the State. Those who are in receipt of contributory benefits must also endure the same cruel increases in the cost of living and they are being obliged to wait until January next before they get any assistance towards meeting increases in the cost of living which are many months old before assistance is given to them. This is deplorable. This establishes a failure on the part of the Government to recognise their responsibilities towards the vast number of people that we have in our community who are in dire need. I refer, Sir, to the thousands of people in this city who yearly are obliged to participate in the free meals scheme under which in this city upwards of two million free meals are issued every year. Why? Because those people are on the wrong side of destitution. They are barely able to maintain body and soul together.

Some people regard it as not nice to protest about these things, as not being proper to remind our people that there are such in our midst. There are many in the comfortably furnished drawingrooms of our country and cities who do not believe there are people queueing up in the city every day for free dinners and the penny dinners, people who only receive decent food when they join those guilds. The highly charitable people in the organisations who provide these facilities are to be commended. No words of mine, no words any human being can utter, can ever record properly the debt which mankind owes to these people. They will get their reward and credit in a much more substantial way in another world.

However, it is not right that this situation should exist. It is not proper that elderly people in this city and elsewhere throughout the country should have to lie in bed in winter covered with blankets and old clothes, that being the only way in which they can keep some heat in their under-nourished bodies. It is not proper that the amounts paid by way of pension and State allowance should be less than what dieticians say is necessary to provide an adequate diet to maintain a proper standard of health.

It is because we allow these improper things to happen, because we fail to provide enough money to stop these things happening, because we do not institute a proper system of transfer payments in this country that these scandals continue. Annually, the Social Welfare (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill does no more than to amend the inadequate provisions already in existence and that is the reason why this sorry situation continues. This is not a just society because a just society would not tolerate these things. If we had a proper conception of justice, we would decide that, whatever the cost, whatever the sacrifice, those who had something to spare would give it gladly to relieve this situation.

There is one charitable organisation in this city which have lasted for more than 175 years and in their annual appeal they refer to the large pocket of untouched, unbelieved poverty. That pocket is there all the time, nagging at our consciences. It is there all the time, remaining unrelieved, and as long as we confine our approach to social welfare to monetary payments arbitrarily applied, so long shall we have that pocket of unrelieved poverty in our midst.

We in Fine Gael, however, deplore more than anything else one aspect of this Bill. Though it goes some of the way to make amends for the increased burden of the increased cost of living, it only goes as far as this day, this moment, and does nothing for what we can reasonably anticipate to be increases in the cost of living before the next Budget, before any further increase is given—August, 1968, at the very earliest. We consider it wrong that the State should be endeavouring, as it is under this Bill, to push the responsibility directly on to workers and employers. Part of the burden of unemployment benefit in the past has been paid by employers, another part by employees and a third part by the State. The Minister for Finance in his Budget Statement, and the Minister for Social Welfare today, endeavoured to justify the proposal to increase the burden on workers and employers.

We take exception to the term which the Minister used today to describe what the Government are doing in this respect. He said the Government proposed "to rectify the position". That is an extraordinary phrase to use. They propose to rectify a position under which the Government have been paying a share of the cost of financing unemployment benefit, and the manner in which they propose to rectify it is to call on workers and employers to contribute, if I understand the Minister's figures correctly, an additional £2,107,000. The Minister said:

In order to rectify this position the Government have decided that the whole annual cost of the extension of unemployment benefit, £2,107,000 a year, should be borne in full by employers and employees and that employers' and employees' contributions should cover more than two-thirds of the cost of the benefit increases in a full year.

At the same time as the working section of the community—those who earn their income and those who make it possible for others to earn incomes —are being called on to provide this extension costing more than £2 million annually, the Government propose under the redundancy payments legislation to call on employers and employees to finance that scheme. We are the only country in Europe in which the Government fail to make a contribution towards the redundancy scheme. We are the only country in Europe which says that the workers and employers alone must pay towards a redundancy fund, which says that they alone must finance it, that they alone must create it; and this at a time when the principal cause of redundancy now, for some time in the past and for a considerable time in the future, is due directly to the Government's decision firstly, to enter into a Free Trade Agreement with Britain and secondly, to negotiate for membership of the EEC. If this comes about, there will be further and greater redundancy, and though this is a direct result, the exclusive result of a decision taken by them, the Government refuse to make any provision for collection from general taxation of the money necessary to compensate people who suffer by reason of a Government decision.

That appears to be utterly indefensible and we suspect the reason for extending the payment burden for unemployment benefit is related to an expectation on the part of the Government that the number of people employed here will increase. One way of providing some scheme of insurance for the people so employed is to extend the period from six months to 12 months. Again, however, we find the Government refusing to bear any of the cost of providing that extension.

They do not hesitate to claim credit, do not hesitate to boast that unemployed persons will get this extension, but the truth of the matter is that they deserve no gratitude for it at all. All they are doing is obliging other people to pay for the benefits for which they are claiming credit. We realise that all improvements must necessitate increased contributions of one kind or another, either in taxation or in insurance contributions. The amount paid in respect of any worker, between employer and employee, is 18/- a week. Adding to this the redundancy payments, you find that the cost directly to the worker and his employer of having a person in employment now is in excess of £1 a week.

We believe that this trend is a dangerous trend. We believe that the ultimate effect will be that employers will be chary of expanding their working force. This amounts to a kind of employment tax. We know that our neighbours across the water have such a tax. They have an employment tax to act as a disincentive to employment. The truth is that the Government in failing to accept their responsibility, in not measuring up to their obligations to contribute their share of the cost, are imposing a new, although hidden, employment tax on this country.

We ought to accept here that there are special responsibilities on the Irish Government because of peculiar Irish factors which justify a situation whereby the Government should pay a larger proportion of the cost of maintaining social assistance and social benefits than might operate elsewhere. We have a very high rate of unemployment. That is in part due to historical circumstances, to physical disadvantages which we have and the wrong economic policy which the Government are pursuing. We also have a very high rate of emigration. One of the factors in connection with our high rate of emigration is that several people make contributions to the insurance fund in respect of which they never get any benefits, because, having been fortunate enough to work here for a number of years, they are then unfortunate enough to have to emigrate. The major proportion of the people of my generation at some time or another have had to emigrate and many of them have made contributions while they were employed here to the Insurance Fund, but have got nothing back in return. We think the State has a special obligation in that situation to relieve those who are contributing to the Fund to the extent of paying at least a larger proportion than that which the Minister now envisages in this Bill.

We have an unduly high institutional rate in this country. We have a larger proportion of citizens of all ages in public institutions being maintained at public expense than our neighbours or than our intended partners in Europe. This, again, is crazy economics. From time to time, the Minister and his predecessors dispute figures which are given which show that, with the exception of Portugal, our country has the worst figure in Europe for social welfare payments. It is interesting to remember that the figures produced here, as it were to relieve the consciences of some people and to indicate that our society is making a tremendous contribution in the field of social welfare, include the cost of maintaining and clothing people in institutions.

That is very bad economics for one thing and, in the second place, is inhuman. It is not the best way in which to look after the less privileged members of our community. We in Fine Gael believe it is shocking that of children in care whose parents for one reason or another are not able to look after them, or whose parents may have died or may be in ill health, we have three in institutions to every two we have in foster homes. That is wrong and is unfair. We should encourage a system by which children who are deprived of their parents at least have an opportunity and the privilege of living in another home. One of the principal reasons for this is the failure of the Minister to provide adequate payment for the maintenance of children in foster homes.

It is much cheaper to provide proper maintenance of children in foster homes than to keep them in institutions. About one-third of the cost of maintaining children in institutions could provide a generous subvention for the same children to foster parents and in the process of so doing, a great deal of good could be done to the children and a great deal of good to our whole society. I would, therefore, plead with the Minister not to delay any longer the provision of an adequate income for foster parents in relation to the children they maintain.

The institutions we have, and which are badly needed, could be used for the relief of conditions which cannot be adequately looked after in private homes. As the Minister knows all too well his colleague, the Minister for Health, is forever under fire in respect of lack of institutions of one kind or another for mentally handicapped children, emotionally disturbed children and people who are handicapped at all ages of life. Those institutions are at present looking after orphans and they would be much better employed looking after those handicapped individuals. They could do this if we improved the system under which children are put in the care of foster parents.

The Minister, I notice, mentions naïvely that the Bill is drafted mainly on the amendment of existing Acts. That is one of the understatements of the day. I think, with the exception of the interpretation section and the short Title and collective citation section in the Bill, every other section is an amendment of some provision of the existing law. This, as the Minister very rightly says, makes the Bill almost incomprehensible but we are grateful to him and his advisers for the memorandum and for his statement today which helps to clarify some points.

In paragraph 5, the explanatory memorandum mentions that the extension of the maximum duration of unemployment benefit is from 156 days to 312 days. By way of explanation, in case we do not know this, we are told that this is from six to 12 months and it applies in the case of all persons over 18 years of age, other than married women. When you come to the Minister's political statement today, you find him glossing over this. The Minister says that this extension is to apply in the case of persons over 18 years of age, including certain married women. One would think from the Minister's statement, if we had not read the explanatory memorandum, that most married women were going to have this benefit conferred on them. But who are the married women who will benefit? We find they are the married women living apart from and unable to obtain any financial assistance from their husbands or who are entitled to the increased benefit for the dependent child or dependent husband. There are not in this country, I am glad to say, many married women living apart from or unable to obtain financial assistance from their husbands. I am glad to say that the other classification is also not very great in number. But certainly it is proper that those maintaining a dependent husband or child should have this extension of benefit conferred. The question still arises: Why are we penalising the married woman? Why this distinction in sex? Is this not far removed from the trend in other countries? The Minister in the Budget statement this year, and certainly on other occasions, has emphasised we will have to give equal pay for equal work. Ancillary to that is equal benefit for equal work. Whether the person is married or single, a woman or a man, should not make any difference so far as conferring benefit is concerned.

We welcome also a long overdue reform, the one in which in future people who are disemployed by reason of a trade dispute will not necessarily have unemployment benefit withheld from them. It was certainly most unjust to operate throughout the years a system under which people who became unemployed through no fault of their own because of a trade dispute found themselves denied all unemployment assistance. Not only that, but in many cases they were refused home assistance critically needed to avoid actual destitution. Had it not been for the kindness of neighbours and small grocers there are many people who would have died of starvation if they had not been able to scrape enough together during trade disputes in the past in order to get on the mail boat to England. This smacked very much of penalising the innocent with the guilty.

We regret that this improvement here is not going as far as it ought to go. There is still a way for the bureaucrat to deprive the worker getting unemployment benefit. We find in section 8 that unemployment benefit may be given to a worker who is not participating in or financing or directly interested in the trade dispute which caused the stoppage of work. Fair enough. But then it goes on:

...and (b) does not belong to a grade or class of workers of which immediately before the commencement of the stoppage, there were members employed at his place of employment any of whom are participating in or financing or directly interested in the dispute.

I may be wrong but my reading of that is this. You could have a wild-cat strike, an irresponsible strike or even a just strike by a small number of people in some particular industry. The people in question might not have the support and sympathy of another large proportion but, so long as the bureaucrat can classify the people in favour of the strike and those against it as belonging to a grade or class of workers which is common, then the benefits will be withheld.

We do not think that is just. We believe it is going to prevent the benefit of this section being as wide as it ought to be. We would, therefore, ask the Minister to think again on this and not to destroy the good which can be done, destroy it by the provision of that hatchet for the bureaucrat who can wield it and clobber any worker or any class of workers he does not like if he does not approve of a particular trade dispute. Let us remember there are just strikes. They are many and will continue so long as men have the right and freedom to protest. We hope, notwithstanding the threat of the present Government, that they will not take this right from these free people and that we will continue to have just strikes in the future. Why should any disemployment as a result of an unjust strike, particularly if the people concerned are not directly concerned with it and are not financially supporting it, result in their being denied unemployment benefit? We cannot in conscience justify it. We find this untenable and we think that in his heart of hearts the Minister will also find it undesirable that we should penalise people in that situation.

I was interested also in finding out other variations between the memorandum and the Minister's statement today. The Minister's memorandum said the proposal had been agreed with the Irish Congress of Trade Unions. It surprised me that Congress would have agreed to this hatchet being put into the hands of the bureaucrat, but we find today that the Minister has mended his hand—probably as a result of representations or because he considered it might be unwise to claim that what had been put out in the Bill was acceptable in its entirety to Congress. The Minister said today:

The amendment proposed in the Bill has been agreed with the Irish Congress of Trade Unions on the understanding that the matter will be subject to review.

It is not desirable that the Minister in memoranda should give the impression that unqualified agreement had been given to any proposal, be it a proposal affecting a trade union or otherwise. I would advise him to be a little more cautious in claiming support for his proposals in the future. I am certainly glad he qualified it today.

I notice also that the Minister adds:

The modification does not, of course, affect the position of persons who involve themselves in a trade dispute by refusing to pass pickets.

Apparently, we are to understand by that that refusal to pass a picket will be regarded, ipso facto, as involvement in the trade dispute. That is unreal. There are pressures, direct and implied, and consequences, direct and concealed, for a worker in refusing to pass a picket. It seems to me it is unfair to say that the State is going to deny a worker faced with those pressures the right to draw unemployment benefit. There are many workers not participating in a strike who find themselves obliged, as a matter of principle, not to pass a picket. It seems unfortunate that we would refuse to confer the right of unemployment benefit on such people. I am not going to invite the Minister to impose any present restriction in the Bill on this but I will just remark this much, that the Bill does not say what the Minister says in his opening statement today. We do not find that there is anything in the Bill to regard a person as being involved in a trade dispute simply because he or she refuses to pass a picket.

The Minister has taken a very correct course in providing that occupational injuries benefit will be conferred on persons who are attending courses of training provided or approved by An Chomhairle Oiliúna. Nobody could as yet have suffered in this regard because, I understand, there are no courses as yet in operation but I wonder whether there are any courses being conducted by private employers which are considered to be outside the scope of employment as we knew it in the past?

This alerts us to another situation which could arise. At the present time in this country we preserve the ancient and unjust code of law which protects the State from being sued in respect of the State's own negligence except in relation to injuries arising out of motor vehicles, and that is specifically provided for in the Road Traffic Acts. But, if a worker is injured while in the employment of the State, even through the negligence of the State, such worker has no right of compensation outside the Occupational Injuries Act that we now have or, previously, the Workmen's Compensation Acts.

That appears to be very wrong. We could have a situation in which an unemployed man was attending the labour exchange or attending for interview by some representative of An Chomhairle Oiliúna and while so attending received an injury through, perhaps, a door closing on his hand or through falling down a stairs or he could be seriously injured in a variety of ways and for a variety of causes. It does not appear that such person would have any right to receive occupational injuries compensation. We ought to extend this provision here to cover persons who are attending at any institution of the State in connection with employment past, present, to come, or anticipated.

Does the Deputy mean uninsured persons?

Yes. I should like you to go all the way, but the Minister may say that that will present difficulty. Take the case of an insured worker drawing unemployment benefit. He goes to Werburgh Street.

If he is covered under the Occupational Injuries Act, he will be covered then, in most cases.

But would such person meeting with an injury in Werburgh Street employment exchange receive occupational injuries benefit?

That would not be his place of employment.

That is what I am saying—we ought to extend it to that case. Such a person is there only in connection with and arising out of an application for employment and for all practical purposes, that is the person's only employment at the time, seeking employment elsewhere, if you like. It is desirable that some form of compensation, and right compensation, should be provided in those circumstances.

The Minister accepts in principle that occupational injuries compensation should apply to persons attending a course of training, but supposing a person is attending for the purpose of being notified or being interviewed in connection with a future course, it is the same type of activity but, of course, I know that, even if the Minister were sympathetic, his colleague, the Minister for Finance, would probably shudder at an extension which would open the door to claims of that kind but it does appear to me to be justifiable.

The steps might be very slippery.

He might consider that the steps would be slippery and it might cause trouble in future.

This Bill, as the Minister rightly said, apart from the Government's avoidance of their responsibilities, is one which, because it confers some modicum of improvement on some sections of the people, should have the support of the House and we in the Fine Gael Party are not going to hold it up. We consider that it does not go far enough. We should like to stop the State avoiding its responsibilities and shoving them all over to the worker and employer but, unfortunately, the rules of procedure in this House, as you know, Sir, do not permit us to propose any measure here which would have the effect of increasing the burden on the Exchequer. All we have to do is to state our views, here and elsewhere, to continue to call for a just society, to continue to try to create in the public consciousness of this country an awareness that a great deal of injustice exists. That we will do. We certainly will help the Minister in any way we can to get this Bill through.

The Bill, of course, since it does offer a slight improvement in certain things, must be welcomed. I suppose we must be thankful for small mercies. The Minister is rather naïve when he refers to the fact that the proportion of social welfare borne by the State here is higher than in most continental countries. Surely the Minister has not been in Dáil Éireann for so long without realising that the more persons there are drawing social welfare benefit the more it costs to pay it? If there are in this week, this year, nearly 50,000 persons unemployed, naturally the cost must be higher than it was at the corresponding time last year when there were only 41,000 persons unemployed. It means that there are 8,000 to 9,000 extra persons to be provided for. By a section in this Bill the Minister is attempting to pass on to the shoulders of the workers of this country a responsibility which must rest fairly and squarely on the Government. That is something which the Government should not have done.

I am quite sure that the Minister must know what the facts are. I am quite sure that the Minister is as well aware as I am that the reason why the proportion of social welfare borne by the State is so high is that there are so many persons who are, unfortunately, forced to draw unemployment and sickness benefits. The State has no responsibility for the fact that persons are drawing sickness benefit. If people are sick, they are sick and that is all there is about it but a very big number of the persons who are unemployed are, in my opinion and the opinion of the Labour Party, unemployed because of the failure of the State to make any attempt to find employment for them. It is not good enough to try to get out of a situation like that simply by stating that the State is carrying too high a proportion of the cost of social welfare benefit and that we must now make the insured worker and the employer pay more.

I have discussed this question of social welfare benefit with, I suppose, thousands of workers all over the country from time to time. I have found that a worker does not object to paying a reasonable increase in the price of the social welfare stamp or does not object so much to paying a relatively high amount for his social welfare stamp if he thinks (a) that he himself will be able to benefit from it if necessary and (b) that his fellow worker will benefit as a result of this extra payment. The imposition of an extra amount simply for the purpose of saving the Government is something which will not be accepted too easily.

The Minister, of course, can say that it is only 3s 2d a week, that is, 1s 7d for the employer and 1s 7d for the employee. The average rate of wages of farm-workers is £9 2s a week, in 1967. If he must have, on and from a certain date, a reduction in his £9 2s, already by the cost of his stamp and now by an extra is 7d because the Government have decided that the stamp must go up by that amount so that the Government will not have to pay as much as they should have to pay, that will not be accepted too easily.

It was, I suppose, an easy way to get out of it by saying: "We shall put the whole lot on to the employer and the employee, and then the State is out of it, and gradually we shall drag it down." Let me say this to the Minister: the Government should make an effort to reduce the unemployment figure of 50,000. They can drag it down in the way it should be dragged down. They can easily reduce the amount which is being spent on unemployed people by trying to find employment for them.

I mentioned on an Estimate here before—and I should like to repeat it for the Minister's benefit—a stupid situation which arises particularly in State, semi-State and local authority employments, where, at certain periods of the year, labourers are laid off work because the amount of money allocated for the job they are doing is exhausted, according to those responsible for the work. Very often these people who are laid off come to the labour exchange and get almost the same amount of money, sometimes slightly less and occasionally slightly more, as if they had been at work. Surely it should be possible for the State to make some arrangement whereby money would be available to employ people who would much prefer to be working in order to earn their money than have it handed out to them?

That is a matter for another Minister.

It is a matter for the Department of Social Welfare. If the Minister for Social Welfare does not set the ball rolling and inquire about this, no other Minister has any function in regard to it.

The provision of grants for employment is a matter for other Departments.

I am not talking about the provision of grants for employment. I am talking about the necessity for co-operation between the Minister for Social Welfare and his colleagues to ensure that money which is being paid out this year as in other years by the Department of Social Welfare will be used to provide employment.

The Minister talks about the 5/-, but I do not know whether he realises that the amount of money which an unemployed or a sick single man or woman will get is 52s 6d per week, and that this 5/- brings that up to the magnificent sum of 57s 6d a week. I wonder what the Minister thinks these people are supposed to do on that. Many of them are paying half that in rent. Many of them who have not got a medical card for one reason or another have to pay that for one visit by their doctor. The Minister seems to think that by giving this 5/- extra, he is doing something which should earn the plaudits of the country. I do not think it will.

One of the biggest failures of the Government is their failure to realise that the amount of money being paid particularly to single people for social welfare benefit is ridiculously low, is well under the amount which is required to buy the necessaries of life for them, if they are well, and therefore very much more so when they are ill. Recently a man told me he had been working for 30 years and stamping cards. About 25 years ago, he met with an accident which partly crippled him, but he went back to work. He has been working under a big handicap since then, but his employer felt he was getting good value from him. A few weeks ago, the doctor told him he would have to stop work because, as a result of the injury he received so long ago, other parts of his body seemed to be unable to carry the strain any longer. That man is now a permanent invalid on 52s 6d per week. He lives with his mother who housekeeps for him. I suppose the Minister will tell me that man should be able to keep himself and his mother in comfort on 52s 6d per week and that when they get the extra 5/-, they can start making hay.

I do not know why the approach of Social Welfare to these matters has been so conservative. I do not know why some Minister has not taken his courage in his hands, looked at the situation and said: "This is not enough to feed a baby, not to talk about feeding grown people, and something will have to be done about it." I suppose there is no point in talking to the Minister at this stage. He will tell me the Budget did not provide the money to allow him to do this sort of thing. However, I would be failing in my duty if I did not set these facts plainly before him.

Reference has been made here to trade disputes and the agreement with the Irish Congress of Trade Unions. I think we might be a little more honest about this. What we have done in this Bill is moved up to the situation which has existed in Britain for 30 years. I understand that the British Government intend to alter this again in the near future, and I suppose we shall wait, as in regard to the Common Market and many other things, with our cap in our hands, see what the British do and then do the same. If a strike occurs in Dublin and a Dublin firm of manufacturers is supplying something to a factory 40, 50 or 60 miles away, at the present time the unfortunate people in that factory down the country are unable to draw unemployment benefit because of the Dublin strike. That has been the situation up until now. The Minister says he is changing that slightly. However, if that is the situation at the present time and if under the new regulations a lorry comes from that factory to collect goods from the firm and the lorry-driver will not pass the picket outside the gate, then according to the White Paper, the lorry-driver and his helper have broken one of the regulations and will not be entitled to get any benefit.

This is the sort of thing we would expect from a Tory Government, a Government who hate trade unions, hate any kind of employee legislation, hate anything which is designed to allow a worker, a trade unionist, to get what he is entitled to. Yet we have it here still being included in legislation before this House in 1967. It is all based on the principle that a trade union dispute is wrong, is wrong from the start and should not take place. I believe the Minister might well have had a hard look at it and decided that when he was relaxing to the British level, he should relax it very much more, and I would appeal to him to do something further about it.

I have referred already to the amount which these people will get. I wrote to the Minister a few weeks ago about a person who was drawing unemployment assistance, a married man with a wife and three children. He exhausted his right to benefit and the six months period was up, and he was then getting £4 8s on which to feed himself and his family. Because the officer who visited that man saw a heifer in the garden, his benefit was reduced by 8/- per week. I wrote to the Minister and asked him in what way could that man feed himself and his family with that heifer without getting himself into trouble with the Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals. I do not know, because if he killed the animal it would go bad before he could eat it, and he would only get himself into trouble if he started cutting steaks off it. The amount he was getting originally was so small that his family and himself could hardly exist on it, and yet the Minister's Department decided to reduce the amount.

He was a capitalist.

Yes, and he needed the heifer for his own comfort. I am sure the few extra shillings he is getting now will be subject to the most rigid test.

Perhaps the Minister would tell me whether something else which I sought for in the Bill is in fact there. He may remember that there was a good deal of discussion last year in this House because of the fact that no matter how many stamps a man had, if it was found that he was able to earn, according to the Minister's officials, 10/- per day, he was disqualified from drawing benefit, whether a single man or not. In one case which I brought to the notice of the Minister's predecessor, the person concerned was a married man with 14 children all under the age of 16 and he was disqualified because he was getting the magic sum of 10/-per day according to the experts. At the time the Minister said he would look into the matter and have this altered in some way. Perhaps the Minister could tell me whether it has been altered. I could not find a reference to the alteration in the Bill.

Similarly, there is the question of qualification for these benefits. We all know the qualifications but I recently came across the case of a man who was employed here, then in England and then here again but because he did not fall ill until he was over the age of 65, the Minister's Department decided he could not claim his English contributions in order to qualify because he was over 65 when he made the claim. That is another matter on which the Minister might comment when replying.

The Minister said that the existing provisions of the Social Welfare Acts in relation to social insurance have been modified by regulations in the case of teachers in national schools, vocational schools and secondary schools who are employed in a permanent and pensionable capacity, so that they are insured only for the purposes of widows' and orphans' pensions. He also said it was intended to bring teachers in the new comprehensive schools into the same position. Some 12 months ago a teacher in a neighbouring school died. He had been teaching in a Christian Brothers school near me and had been a teacher all his life. His widow applied for a pension but was refused, even though he was paying social welfare contributions and she would, I thought, have qualified for benefit. I was informed by the Department officials that was not so. Perhaps the Minister at his convenience might let me know if there is some peculiar twist in this regulation which I could not dig up because, as far as I could see, this woman should be entitled to benefit. According to the officials, she would not qualify because he was a secondary teacher, even though he paid contributions. I took it up with the Department but they were adamant that no pension could be paid.

The question of the cost of the concession is mentioned and it is estimated that the gross cost of implementing the improvements in the social insurance scheme will be £5,123,000. The extension of the duration of unemployment benefit will result in a saving on the unemployment assistance estimate of £1,500,000 in a full year. That is a point which most people seem to miss, the fact that by allowing people to draw unemployment benefit for the full year, the State is, in fact, saving money that would have to be produced under the social welfare scheme. I grant that it was a neat little trick and the Minister seems to have no hesitation at all in stating this fact in his opening speech.

The Minister refers briefly to the 2/1d for men and 1/7d for women being paid in respect of the Occupational Injuries Insurance Scheme. Would it be possible to let the House have, if he does not wish to give the information to individual Deputies, a copy of the various regulations made under this Act? It appears that there are certain qualifications about which we know nothing. For instance, there is the question of the person who has been drawing workmen's compensation for six months before the Act came into operation on 1st May and they are now apparently qualified for payment under the new Act. I should like to have something like the SW4——

The regulations made under the Act were published and copies of them have been supplied to Deputies who asked for them.

I should like to get copies of them. Are they separate or like the SW4?

I think the best we can do is to provide a complete set.

They may have come and been mislaid somewhere, but certainly I did not get them. I believe there is a number of things in them that would be of general interest.

On the question of qualification for unemployment benefit or assistance, there is a provision to disqualify people who are dismissed because of misconduct or who voluntarily leave employment without just cause or refuse an offer of suitable employment or who neglect to avail themselves of any reasonable opportunity of obtaining employment. I do not know whether the Minister is aware of this, but since the introduction of new regulations, since it was announced that a person could draw benefit for 12 months if he had the appropriate number of stamps, an average of 40 as against six months before this, his inspectors have become very active in trying to prove that people are not seeking employment. I hate to think that an effort would be made by somebody to try to save a few shillings on these unfortunate people. I know there are people who would not work if they got work but I also know hundreds of people who would be only too glad to take employment if they could get it.

I brought a case to the Minister's attention of two people who were working in Dublin and travelling by car to the city every day over a distance. Then the car broke down, as old cars do, and they were no longer able to travel 40 miles each day to work at their building jobs. To the Minister's credit, he dealt with this case quickly when, having no option but to sign, they were disqualified on the ground that work was still available for them. It was only on the Minister's intervention that these people were paid what was due to them, but in the intervening period, there was serious hardship caused to the families of both these men. This is a matter in which the Minister might take an interest and point out that circumstances affecting the leaving of a job or failing to avail of employment vary very much. If a person refused to avail of employment near his home, he has no kick coming, but if he is offered employment at a distance and has no way of getting there that should be taken into consideration. That happened as recently as a few weeks ago. It is a practice that should not be continued.

I also notice that the Minister proposes to apply the same section and the same type of treatment to people who refuse to accept training under the new Training Bill. That, I suppose, is fair enough, provided, again, that the training offered is at a suitable venue and of a suitable character. I have noticed a particular pattern in rural Ireland over the past few years— the Minister being a country man, may have noticed it too—which results, when unemployment in agriculture takes place, in the older man being laid off and the boy retained. Now, the man employed in agriculture until he is 60 or 65 years of age, who becomes unemployed, may find it extremely difficult to accept that he can be trained for something else; it would be very rough justice on such a man, finding himself out of a job and having stamped insurance cards for 40 years, to be told that, because he was not prepared to travel ten miles to a factory, if such existed, to be trained for another job, he was not entitled to draw unemployment benefit. I should like the Minister to take particular note of that because, if the Bill passes into legislation, this is one of the things likely to cause a great deal of hardship. The case is identical with that of the unfortunate man who was unable to travel to a building site in Dublin on which he had been getting employment for a couple of years.

The Minister, when introducing this Bill, might very well have had another look at the recent legislation he introduced in relation to the payment of unemployment benefit to female farm workers and domestic servants. It is a scandalous situation that these people should be singled out; they must have ten years stamps before they can draw unemployment benefit while people who have not experienced half the hardship they have are able to draw benefit after 26 weeks. This is something the Minister could very easily change and the sooner he does so the better it will be. Already there have been many cases of hardship.

Finally, I should like to refer to a matter which is causing a great deal of trouble at the moment. It may be that the Chair will not regard this as entirely relevant, but when will the Department of Social Welfare decide that an employer who deducts employment contributions over a period of years, and fails to stamp cards, will be held responsible for the payment of benefits to the unfortunate employees, if the employer eventually goes broke? I have in mind one or two individuals who went bankrupt, under one heading, and then started business under a different heading a week later; the only people who suffered were the unfortunate workmen who were left high and dry while these gentlemen were able to laugh at both the State and the employees because they got cover under another Act of this House.

I am grateful for the constructive approach to this Bill. No Minister for Social Welfare will ever be told by those in Opposition that he is giving enough. This section of the community always seems to be fair game, as it were, for expressions of the greatest possible sympathy here. Everybody seems to be affected by the need for doing better. The other side of the picture is that, when we ask for money to be provided to give the better benefits all of us would like to give, the bill is not received with anything like acclamation. By and large, it is fundamentally a matter of providing more money if one wants to do better. While there is some improvement each year, we have every reason to be satisfied that we are making decent strides from the point of view of our national income as a whole and, in particular, from the point of view of our developing economy.

It is not always fair or right to make comparisons between the amounts we pay the needier sections of our community with what we do in other respects for other sections of the community. We are trying to expand our economy and to increase production. A number of considerations of very grave import are involved and the Minister must have regard to them when he seeks from the Minister for Finance whatever share of the national purse he wants to devote towards the improvement of the benefits paid to the less fortunate in our society. A comparison is very often made with fully developed countries in which there is full or over-full employment. We must have regard to the means by which the money can be provided in progressively larger amounts and also to the other services which ultimately redound to the benefit of these weaker sections in our community. One of these is extended free education, a very costly matter but of very practical benefit to these particular classes. One must have regard to what can be done by the different Departments involved in the provision of services. The goose that lays the golden egg must not only be kept alive but must be kept in good health to ensure that a growing amount of the national product will be available for distribution to the weaker sections.

Sometimes, listening to some speakers, one would imagine we could take the entire national income in any particular year and level it out equally over all sections of the community. That may sound feasible in theory but it could very well have the effect of reducing the amount in the following financial year and, with the amounts decreasing progressively over the years, no one could regard it as a good thing to do.

I am deeply interested in what can be done for the weaker sections and am at the moment examining the anomalies that exist. Loose ends must be tied up. The Treaty of Rome calls for harmonisation of services and we are engaged right now on an examination on a comparative basis to find out to what extent our services fall short. The position is by no means as bad as one might be tempted to think it is, listening to some Deputies here. While we must be prepared to be as generous as possible to the weaker sections of our community, we must, at the same time, have regard for those who will be called on to pay; we must not trespass too far on their generosity in order to improve the position of those less fortunate amongst us. There are sections coming under the social welfare schemes which, I think, require greater consideration than others.

For instance, I would have much more sympathy with the widows with dependent children than I would have with the single unemployed person, however important it is and necessary to make payments in both cases. In one case, you have the persons who cannot possibly assist themselves and in the other case you have a person who may, by a greater effort or readapting or retraining himself, find himself in employment. That is only an instance of cases where I think we would need to keep a better eye on the provisions to be made in future. Some of the cases mentioned by Deputy Tully have already been under examination. The fact that he mentions so few cases to us that we have not——

Does the Minister want me to stay here until tomorrow night to tell him? I shall be delighted, if the Chair will allow me. I can keep the Minister going for the coming six months.

I remember the Deputy pleading for the transfer of the rural worker to the urban area. This is one of the things I have done in this Bill. He has not seen fit to thank me.

I thanked the Minister's predecessor and he said I was trying to claim credit for it.

This is an indication of a number of things of considerable importance which we are able to tidy up as we go along each year in our efforts generally towards the improvement of the service.

We must have regard for what has to be provided by the Exchequer, by the taxpayer, in relation to what can be regarded as social welfare services administered by other Departments and in other directions. We must have regard to what those who pay taxes can afford to pay towards these but, within these terms, we must be as generous as possible, always remembering that this is something which should not carry us away. We must never raise these services to a stage where people will be encouraged to malinger. I have seen examples of high social welfare services in other countries and other States. I should not be too ready completely to emulate what they are doing.

When we make very glowing statements here about the underprivileged and what should be done for them, I would point out that one does not have to examine too many files to find out that they are not all saints either. If, at times, our welfare officers appear unduly strict in their investigations— and sometimes I have occasion to suspect that they have been—at the same time, when one understands what they have to contend with over a long period one realises that there are times, no doubt, when they are inclined to become sceptical if not cynical about the whole question of application for benefit and the qualification——

Sometimes a genuine case is the one that may suffer. It is unfortunate that sometimes we have to have what may appear undue investigation in order to ensure that cases are genuine. I can assure Deputies that when one is in the saddle and has occasion to examine many of the cases one comes to the conclusion that investigation and sometimes strict investigation is necessary. Marginal cases are those we find frequently complained of. Where there is a means test, no claim can be allowed to go free of investigation. That, I think, will always be the case.

The main criticism of the Bill is that we have asked that payments towards some of the major improvements on the social insurance side be taken from the employer and the employee without the State this time contributing towards them. As I pointed out explicitly in my Second Reading speech, the State has already found itself contributing more than was originally intended to the social insurance fund—almost 40 per cent— whereas, under the 1952 Act, 33? per cent was considered a satisfactory and generous contribution by the taxpayer. This amount has gone up and, after asking the employer and the employee to contribute towards the increased rates which become payable from 1st January next and the extension of the six months' period during which unemployment insurance may be drawn by a further six months—after asking the employer and the employee to pay for these and the employer to pay for the entire contribution towards the Occupational Injuries Act—the taxpayer will still be contributing more than 33? per cent—I want to emphasise that—to the social insurance fund. I think this is a very generous contribution when we consider that the entire social assistance paid out is contributed by the taxpayer.

No person could genuinely accuse us of not channelling a fair proportion of the national income to the social welfare services of this country. I think that is something that cannot justifiably be sustained in argument in this House or outside it. We can always argue, that, instead of giving 5/-, we should give 10/- and, if we give 10/-, it could be argued we should give £1.

I do not want to repeat that there are limitations and they are the resources at our disposal at Budget time and the absolute necessity to permit other services to get their due share of what, in the last analysis, goes directly to these people too—education, house building, social and public amenities. These can all be regarded as social services for which money is highly essential and should be provided. I should always like to ensure— as would any Minister in my position— that a fair and just proportion of the national income would be channelled towards the weaker sections but we must have regard to these other services as well and to the ability and the necessity to have money put into the expansion of the economy in order that we may have more money for social welfare and, as Deputy Tully pointed out, that the number of people who would qualify for it would become fewer. When I say that, I particularly refer to the unemployed.

While permitting the economy to continue to expand and while putting as much money as possible into productive development, we are doing a very important job directly for a big section of the social welfare classes and indeed, indirectly, for all of them. We create employment for those likely to be unemployed. We have a greater buoyancy of revenue which permits us to do more for the weaker sections whom we shall always have to help than for those who cannot benefit by any expansion of the economy or improvement in the employment rate.

In that context, I should like to refer to the lack of any mention of the magnanimous offer of free transport for the aged, assistance for the lonely pensioner and the payment of his electricity account. These are very great improvements, a step in the right direction, and something worthy of mention by the Opposition, even though there is nothing necessary by way of legislation to provide for them. They are done purely by administrative action without requiring—in this Bill anyway—any new legislation. Nevertheless, they are part of the services about which we have been talking so much.

It is in the Finance Bill, is it not? It has to be.

The financial provisions. They are part of the services about which we have been talking and part of what goes towards the social welfare services when we make a global estimate of what we are paying in that respect. For that reason they were worthy of mention here. The extension of unemployment benefit from 156 days to 312 days was floated over by Deputy Tully but this is a very important step. It is a measure which completely ties in with the proposed redundancy payments that will be made in respect of redundancy in employment. In fact, I would say this does more for redundancy than any other measure one could contemplate, in so far as it provides for the person who has had a good record of employment a fair means of continuity in the unemployment benefit he will receive if he faces a long period of unemployment. It makes very easy provision for the requalification for a further period in that in the second six months 13 contributions will requalify him for benefit and this may be even as a result of casual employment during the time in which he is already in receipt of unemployment benefit.

This is a most generous measure and apart from the fact that the State will be contributing more than the one-third towards the social insurance fund it would not be fair to ask everybody to contribute towards the better provision and greater security of those already employed. It is only right that the employer and the employee should make a fair contribution towards what is in the last analysis their own security. There are so many people to whom the State has to subscribe directly on the social assistance side that it is only fair we should have a much greater help-yourself effort by those who are fortunate enough to be employed already. I make no apology for keeping the balance around the one-third from the Exchequer, one-third from the employer and one-third from the employee. In fact, we are retaining that ratio and, indeed, the Exchequer is doing somewhat better than the 33? per cent which was hailed in the 1952 Act, in the debate here, as being very acceptable to everybody, as far as I can see.

I do not think it is necessary to spend a long time discussing the merits of this measure, which to a great extent is an annual measure, and I should like to follow the example of the main Opposition speakers and keep my speech as brief as possible. However, it is no harm to outline my feeling about the future of the social welfare service. It is, that while we are now examining the problem of closing gaps that have to be closed and providing for the future a more comprehensive scheme which can be financed as circumstances justify it, and perhaps as circumstances demand, we should not fail to make as generous provision as the national income will permit for these weaker sections at all times. I would repeat that I am not too enamoured of those schemes I see operated in other countries where such generous provision is made that very often it is an enticement for people to become unemployed and even to become sick. In the last analysis these are benefits intended to tide people over difficult times, to give them a reasonable standard of comfort and to see that nobody goes hungry. I would be more concerned for the disabled classes, the aged and widows with children. A good deal could be said in support of a somewhat better payment for these if circumstances permitted. I should like, Sir, to get all Stages of this Bill now and for that reason I do not propose to say any more on this Stage.

Question put and agreed to.

Thursday.

Could you not agree to take the Committee Stage now?

It is a very intricate Bill and we should like to have it on Thursday. It will not take long.

I do not think there is anything that could call for any serious consideration.

There are some improvements we should like to make, in so far as the law permits.

I should point out that this Bill has to go to the Seanad and has to become law before the first week in August.

We appreciate that, but if the House did not sit last week, it was not our fault.

You were as happy as anybody else not to see the House sitting last week.

We are expediting the business as much as we can.

Thursday of this week?

That will not permit you much time to submit amendments.

It will; we have them on the way already.

Committee Stage ordered for Thursday, 6th July, 1967.

No. 13— School Attendance Bill.

The Minister will be along shortly.

Obviously we need a Dáil Attendance Bill.

Mind you——

We need a Government Administrative Bill. We do not know what they are doing. We cannot get any information out of them about what is to be done.

I was looking for all Stages of a Bill and you would not give them to me.

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