Deputy Seán Dunne has given notice that he intends raising a matter on the Adjournment.
Adjournment Debate. - Free Transport For Old Age Pensioners.
I should like to draw attention to the exodus now in progress from the House. Of course, we are only going to talk now about something which really concerns the people vitally, that is, the condition of the old age pensioners. We are not going to hear bells ringing all day for them. We are not going to have a display of animus versus political spleen on behalf of the old pensioners. They do not matter. They come at the end of the day when everybody is running for a train or a taxi and when everybody is too busy to bother.
I gave notice that I would like to take up in the House with the Minister the fact that a majority of this Dáil approved of the proposal contained in the Budget statement of this year that arrangements should be made whereby old age pensioners and blind people might travel free on CIE services. This may seem a matter of small consequence to those who are concerned about the transference of wealth in the rural towns of Ireland, whether it be by mart or otherwise, but it is of vital consequence and importance to the hundreds of thousands of old people throughout the length and breadth of this Republic who have lived, in the main, lives of hardship.
It is probably true to say that the kind of lives they have had to live to get a living in this country in the past half century, the kind of difficulties they have had to endure in bringing families into the world, rearing and educating them, that kind of existence will not be seen again, because not just this country but the world has rejected the kind of economic slavery they had to undergo. Let us try to look at this thing with the eye of humanity and with a feeling of obligation to those who have gone before us. If we think of the debt owed to the generation being referred to here — leaving aside for the moment, the blind people— nobody in this House can say to himself that we have done what we should have done by them.
Here there was a suggestion pressed by this Party over a long number of years that these people should at least be given the facility of travel on the public transport services without being charged. Most of them are in what may be described as the autumn of their days. Far from being economically independent, most of them suffer the difficulties which old people seem inevitably to suffer — the loneliness of old age and the shortage of money wherewith to make life more bearable. It seemed to most Deputies that at the end of all this agitation and effort, made mostly, if not exclusively, by the Labour Party, this simple concession of free travel should be made available to them. There was a general feeling that whatever you might say about the Minister for Finance, Deputy Charlie Haughey, at least he has done this. Knowing him personally my belief is that the Minister for Finance in making the proposal could not have had in mind the kind of end result which we see here in the conditions which have been drawn up obviously by the Civil Service. I do not want to attack civil servants because they are not here. Obviously, these conditions were drawn up by the Civil Service in consultation with CIE.
The position at present is as follows: an old age pensioner will not be allowed to use the buses free, except at certain stated times. These times, which were outlined to the Dáil yesterday by the Minister for Social Welfare, are that from Monday to Friday inclusive, he will be forbidden to use the buses free from 7 a.m. to 10 a.m. and from 4.30 p.m. to 6.30 p.m. in Dublin, Cork and Limerick, on long-distance bus services leaving Dublin, Cork and Limerick between 4 p.m. and 7 p.m. on Fridays within a 20-mile radius of those cities; on long distance bus and rail services from noon on Friday to midnight on Sunday of the August bank holiday weekend and from 23rd to 27th December inclusive.
I do not know who is responsible for these gems of regulations but, whoever they are, I would like, through this House, it being the only method of expressing one's views I can find in matters of this kind, to have conveyed to him my conception of his mind. It is the mind of a pauper: only a pauper mentality could have conceived this. Here we have CIE, well known to be running at a loss, not of thousands or of hundreds of thousands, but of millions. It is an accepted fact of the national economic set-up that CIE is running at a loss. Many of us can see the buses half and threequarters empty most of the time, not alone during the so-called valley hours but at other times as well. I must blame the Minister for Social Welfare, although I would think the blame can be ascribed more accurately to the Minister for Transport and Power more than anybody else, knowing his remoteness from the real problems of the Irish people. But here we have the Minister for Social Welfare imagining throngs of old age pensioners and blind people storming the bus queues during the busy hours and depriving the rest of the population of their seats on the public transport service.
On behalf of the workers of this city, for whom I have some title to speak— as was demonstrated in the very recent past — the people who use the buses and trains during the busy hours are most anxious that there should be absolute free and untrammelled right given to the old age pensioners and the blind to travel without any charge whatsoever on the transport services.
These regulations — this is an actual document which is pasted into the pension book of every old age pensioner and blind pensioner — provide amongst other things that pensioners getting on a bus may be required, if the conductor considers that he or she is not a person qualified under the regulations to be travelling on the bus, to show their pension books and to sign a document to prove that they are in fact the persons they claim to be. The conductor may compare the signature with some other document he may have in his possession.
Did you ever hear the like of it? First, they would have to take their pension books every time they went out, with the obvious danger of losing them and with the resultant inconvenience that might entail. Then, if it is found necessary by any official to prove their identity, they must make a public demonstration of who they are, with all the embarrassment that will bring upon them. It brings to mind in its stupidity and utter disregard for the feelings of the aged and the blind a similar case which happened in respect of another Department, to my knowledge, where a lady friend of mine applied for what were once called false teeth and are now known as dentures. She was informed by the Department that she could only get them if she were pregnant. She wrote back and asked how this could be arranged as she was over 80 years of age and had been a widow for a considerable number of years and that she would be obliged to the Department of Health if they could give her some information on that problem.
Did she get an answer?
No. I think she got the false teeth though. She should have, certainly. I am not quite certain about what the end result was. She told me that and that was in the reign of the former Minister for Health who, I am quite certain, would have been more than anxious to provide her with false teeth. I just mention that as an example of what can happen — the stupidity of Departments in dealing with the public.
Here we have what I regard as the very quintessence of the kind of mind which cannot give anything graciously. There is to be found within the make-up of this Government and, indeed, it seems, of most Governments and certainly within the organisation through which the Government operate a kind of mind which thinks that whatever is to be given must be cabined and confined and regulated in such a fashion that the good is taken out of it. That is what is happening here. On the one hand, we say we should make free travel available. The Dáil is anxious to do it. It does not represent any financial loss to the country whatsoever. Even if it did, of course, one could establish the case that it should be done. But, the Dáil is completely anxious to do it and here we have the petty mind at work which ever seems to come to the surface in this country, an accursed thing. I do not think it is because of our history or because of the British but it is an inherent thing that when the beggar gets on horseback he will ride to the devil. That is what is happening in this case. I want to say to the Minister, let us show a bit of consideration to these people.
The Minister, in his reply to me yesterday on this question, said something to the effect that this was a concession. What is a concession? The word "concession" has about it the ring of meanness, that we are giving them something to which they are not entitled. Are they not entitled to it? Are they not entitled to far more than this, to a decent living in their own country for what they have done to build up this country in so far as it can be said to have been built up? Are they not entitled to a better way of life for what they have endured? This small thing is vitiated and almost destroyed by the regulations to which I have referred.
I want to appeal to the Minister to do the decent thing and cut out all this stuff and say that the aged and the blind can travel on the buses. It will make no difference. There will be no disruption of organisation. The country will not lose by it and we will be paying back a little of what we owe to these people.
I should like to know from the Minister what would be the position of persons in receipt of British old age pensions in this country. Are they automatically entitled to the same conditions as will be made to apply to people receiving Irish pensions, both blind and old age? This is a very important point and one that the Minister might clarify for us. I appeal to those few who are in the House and by their presence are evidencing interest in the plight of these people — not to take me as claiming a corner in sympathy for these people. I know that everybody here has as much sympathy for them and probably more than I have. I know that the Minister, as a normal reasonable man, has sympathy for them but I want him to translate this sympathy into actual fact. Words are lightly spoken and they are of little good to persons who are living on the very fringe, as it were, in the economic sense. These people in large numbers have to depend on what they get from the State. Too often are they neglected by their own, as we all well know. This small thing should not be dragged in the muck in which it has been dragged by trying to confine it in this ridiculous fashion.
I mentioned yesterday that under the present dispensation an old age pensioner on a Christmas day who has not got his fare to go to Mass will walk to Mass. The Minister for Justice intervened: was it a matter of any importance? It is a matter of great importance to the people concerned, particularly to the elderly. As we well know, things of this kind have assumed for them an importance which, to young people with their lives before them, like the Minister for Justice, may not appear obvious. That is one point. I take it out of the whole set of regulations to show to the Dáil the kind of mind behind these regulations, a mind which says that there would be a great many people looking to use the buses or trains on these days and, therefore, in case they might lose 2/- on the railway line or 10/- on the Ballyfermot line, they had better cut that out in view of the fact that they could get fares there during Christmas. Is this in the spirit of Christmas? I do not want to go on with that because I would be entering into a realm which much more properly belongs to my learned and distinguished colleague from the same constituency.
I want to say, though, that I am bringing it forward in the knowledge that CIE had a big hand in the making of these regulations. All I ask is that these people be given a ticket similar to that given to some very highly paid people in CIE who give free travel to themselves, without any regulations or confinement, without any abbreviations of their rights and who use these free tickets only when their Mercedes or Rolls-Royces break down. That is all I am asking. It is not very much. I would ask the Minister to look at it in that light and do away with this thing. The gesture will cost nothing and will mean a lot to the people concerned. I cannot visualise great numbers of this class going to use the buses during the busy hours anyway but, if they do infringe, surely they might be given that much grace?
I must call on the Minister to conclude.
The Deputy answered the whole case in his last statement that he could not visualise great numbers of this class going to use the buses during the busy hours anyway. That is exactly the position. Everybody wants the peak hour transport to be left as far as possible to those who have to come into work, go home to lunch, return to their work and go home again at certain peak hours. For that reason it was decided that people who can ordinarily do their journey at other times suitable should do so and the times which suit old people best are off-peak traffic times. This is quite obvious. Indeed, nobody would like to see old people being jostled out in peak travel hours because it is not very nice even for the hale and hearty to travel at that time.
To say that I had anything to do with bringing in something to the scheme which the Minister for Finance did not anticipate is quite wrong. That would be obvious to the Deputy if he would read the Minister's statement on two occasions, first on 11th April when, as we had agreed in the Government before the Budget, he said in his Budget Statement:
A scheme is being worked out in consultation with CIE whereby old age and blind pensioners will be able to travel free of charge on CIE buses and trains during periods when traffic is not heavy,
and on 2nd May when replying to the Debate on the Budget he said:
The only restriction will be that the old people will be expected to use this facility in off-peak hours, and I think that is fairly reasonable There will be no great rigidity about this, but we would expect that the facilities will not be availed of in the rush hours when bus services, particularly, are heavily taxed.
The exempted hours do not in any way inconvenience anybody. Indeed, of the huge number of letters I got and verbal words of thanks in respect of this facility — and as far as I know, those which the Minister for Finance got, too — not one single person complained of not being allowed to travel during rush hours; in fact, many of them said that is the time they did not want to travel. The Deputy did his best to capitalise by making the most dramatic statement possible about it, that these old people wanted to travel during the rush hours and that I was preventing them travelling. They do not want to travel during rush hours.
As regards the statement made yesterday about their not being allowed to travel to Mass on Christmas Day, I can assure him that any old people who want to travel on that day will have these facilities made available to them free, and that would apply where public transport is available and suitable.
Then the Minister will have to change the regulations.
There is no change in the regulations required for that. I shall examine this as it goes on from time to time, and if there is any undue hardship being imposed with regard to free travel, we are always open to amend it where possible. I would be very slow to recommend that old people should be taken out in the cities during the rush hours, and I do not think they want to go, as Deputy Dunne said in his winding-up statement. These facilities are a great boon to these old people. In fact when it was being arranged I considered that it was even better to them than some money added to their pensions. They can in the quiet of the day, when traffic is low, get out to visit their friends, go on long journeys, get away to places of pilgrimage, get away somewhere for the weekend, and give themselves a better life than they would otherwise have if they were confined to their homes. This was better to them than extra money, as I considered was the case in regard to the ESB concession, when people living alone could have some pleasure and comfort by being able to make greater use of heat and lighting during the long evenings.
I do not think there is much one can say in relation to this except to refer to the extraordinary statement Deputy Dunne has made in regard to being an advocate of this for many years. I wonder why Deputy Corish, when he was Minister for Social Welfare, did not do it.
We had a motion down in the House covering this 18 months ago, and you voted against it.
I am talking about the time the Leader of the Labour Party was Minister for Social Welfare.
We are talking about the present time.
I have a right to refer to that and to be amazed that this hypocrisy is now being practised.
What about the 5/-you told them you would give them last year?
The Minister has only ten minutes; the Deputy had 20 minutes.
If I am hurting Deputy Dunne, do not be worried.
One could not be hurt by you. We know your carry-on.
We are reminding the Minister of the 5/- he did not give the pensioners last year as was promised.
That has nothing to do with this debate, which deals with free travel facilities.
We gave them a lot more than you gave them—a half-crown in three years.
None of you up there was in the House at the time you are talking about, so you do not know. You are taking your instructions from the Irish Press, which is not a dependable organ.
Would Deputy Dunne cease interrupting?
The main fact is that we are not giving free travel to these people during the time that is least suitable, least desirable, and the time when everybody is advised not to use the service. A Minister would be very remiss in his duty if he were to decide to send old people out during the rush periods.
Why should they have to display their pension books on every occasion and have their signatures verified?
This is not the only country in which this service is available. It is available in other countries. I will not say every country, because I have not had time to go into it and I am not sufficiently aquainted with the conditions in some countries, but in any of the cases I have made inquiries regarding this, I find that our scheme has fewer conditions attached to it and is more generous. In some places, they are asked to pay a nominal fee.
What about the British old age pensioner?
I think in the northern part of Ireland, they are expected to pay something.
Will the British old age pensioners here be allowed to use free transport? He is an Irish citizen.
British old age pensioners do not come under the scheme. This is something we could consider, but it would have to be considered on a reciprocal basis.
They are Irish citizens.
These people in receipt of Irish pension books enjoy the facility to use the service at the times specified. As I already said to Deputy Dunne yesterday in answer to his question, this does not inflict any undue hardship on anybody.
The Minister has changed his mind about Christmas Day. It is in the regulations that they cannot get free travel on that day.
There are no city buses available before 10.30 on Christmas Day, as far as I know.
That is not the point. The point is that you are ruling them out altogether for the whole four days of Christmas.
The bus service would not be too suitable, and with regard to free travel in the winter time, I do not think there is any demand for it. I find that old age pensioners are more than grateful for this concession, and I think I am in touch with as many as Deputy Dunne or anyone else. This is one of the best concessions these people have got. It is yet in its infancy, and the Deputy is premature in rushing in here and trying to make capital out of it at this stage. I do not think it necessary to say anything further. We have as much sympathy with these people as with any other section, and at least we have done something concrete for them.
I think I was mistaken in you. I gave you credit for it, but I think I was wrong.
What about the CIE pensioners and the trade union leaders?
The Dáil adjourned at 6.55 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Tuesday, 25th July, 1967.