Skip to main content
Normal View

Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 25 Jul 1967

Vol. 230 No. 5

European Economic Community.

I move:

That Dáil Éireann approves of the decision to reactivate Ireland's application for membership of the European Economic Community.

The issue before the country at the present time is not whether we should join the European Communities but how best to prepare for membership, assuming it is open to us. As I said in my statement in the Dáil on 11th May immediately following the renewal of our candidature for membership, I am convinced that the Government, in deciding in 1961 to seek membership for Ireland, and the Dáil in supporting that decision, judged correctly the response of the Irish people to the challenge of participating in the fashioning of a new Europe.

I do not think there is anyone in this House who is prepared to say that we should not seek participation in an enlarged European Community which includes Britain. If there is, he must be prepared also to demonstrate, and demonstrate convincingly, that there is a valid alternative which can ensure for our people an expanding economy with opportunities of developing our economic potential at least as good as those available within the EEC. He must show how we can continue to sell our agricultural and industrial products in increasing quantities abroad, how we can continue to attract the foreign capital and technical knowhow so necessary for the building up of our industrial arm. For us, these are essential constituents of economic growth, and, if there is anyone who wishes to persuade this House or the people of this country that they can be secured outside an enlarged European Community, he will have to base his case on something more convincing than facile statements about negotiating trade agreements or diversifying export markets.

The traditional type of trade agreement simply will not give us the kind of export opportunities we need, since it will not serve to open doors through the tariffs and levies which would surround our principal export market, namely, Western Europe. An unfavourable trade balance with a country does not necessarily enable us to force that country to take our products on special terms. In the present-day world, in which major trading countries are bound by the rules of GATT, the scope for bilateral bargaining has virtually disappeared. In this situation, substantial trading advantages are not obtainable except inside a wider grouping, such as a customs union or a free-trade area embracing both agricultural and industrial products.

We do not, however, look upon the EEC as merely an economic institution. The Treaty of Rome is the foundation-stone of a much greater concept than the exchange of trading opportunities. This Treaty—and the Treaty of Paris, which preceded it, establishing the European Coal and Steel Community—can rightly be regarded as the first decisive acts in building up a new Europe. In the preamble to the Treaty of Rome, the Contracting Parties affirmed their determination to lay the foundations of an ever closer union between European peoples and their resolve to strengthen, by combining their resources, the safeguards of peace and freedom. The ultimate goal of the Treaty is, essentially, to bring about a united Europe through the fusion of national economies.

The Government have made it clear on several occasions that we share the ideals which inspired the parties to the Treaty of Rome and that we accept the aims of the Community as set out in the Treaty, as well as the action proposed to achieve those aims. This could hardly be otherwise, for Ireland is a part of Europe, not only by virtue of her geographical situation and the bonds of trade and commerce, but also by the shared ideals and values of fifteen centuries. Our friends in Europe are fully conscious of the part played by Irish scholars in the defence of those values at a dark moment in Europe's history, just as we cannot but be mindful of our debt to the European nations for the hospitality and encouragement found there by Irish exiles during our own long struggle for national identity. The facts of history and the links of a common civilisation join our small island to that great land-mass with whose destinies our own are bound up, and we cannot but welcome, support and contribute to any movement aimed at developing and strengthening that European way of life which is a part of our own Irish heritage. Thus, we participated, as founding members, in the establishment of the Council of Europe, the Organisation for European Economic Co-operation and the European Payments Union, and we followed, with the closest attention, all efforts in the post-war years to find ways of giving effect to the aim of European unity. In seeking membership of the European Economic Community, Ireland is indicating her willingness to play her full part in a movement which has the greatest significance for the future of Europe —and, indeed, for the world.

As my predecessor said in his address to the Council of Europe in January of last year,

We believe that the peoples of Europe, with their background of culture and tradition, their community of outlook and spirit and their highly-developed skills, have, in unison, an immense potential for human benefit, not alone in Europe but throughout the world. We look forward with confidence to a united Europe—a Europe firmly committed to its own development in peace and harmony and, thus, the better able to serve the cause of peace in the world and the freeing of all mankind from the scourge of poverty, hunger and disease.

In my recent meetings with Netherlands, German and Italian statesmen, which assured me of the welcome and support of their Governments for Ireland's membership, I observed a growing conviction of the desirability of an expanded and united Europe. The voice of united Europe would be listened to in the councils of peace— divided she is not heard.

We recognise that membership of the EEC would inevitably have political implications for us, that is to say, it would entail certain limitations on our national sovereignty. Every international agreement, such as the Charter of the United Nations or the Statute of the Council of Europe, entails such limitations and imposes certain duties on the participating States.

First of all, the Rome Treaty imposes upon member States a commitment to integrate their national economies to a degree which admittedly involves some derogation from national sovereignty. At the time we might hope to be admitted to the Community, it will have acquired all the characteristics of a customs union and some of the characteristics of an economic union. At that stage, we would be expected to conform to the policies already determined by the Community in the various areas covered by the Treaty, subject, of course, to whatever terms of entry may be negotiated. We would, however, have a voice in the formulation of future policy within the institutional system of decision-making in the EEC, as well as a degree of protection of our interests, which we could not hope to have in isolation.

The Treaty of Rome obliges member States of the Community to delegate certain powers to specified institutions of the Community. These institutions— the Council, the Commission, the Court of Justice and the European Parliament—have supranational features, in verying degrees, under the Treaty. However, the question of the powers of the institutions of the Community, as distinct from national governments, has not yet been finally resolved. A country is normally prepared voluntarily to surrender some of its sovereignty in an international agreement because it expects to derive compensating advantages therefrom. I shall deal later in more detail with the balance of advantage in our case as it appears at the present time.

In regard to the question of what obligations, in the purely political field, we would be assuming by EEC membership, Deputies will be aware from statements already made by me in this House that, while membership of the EEC will, naturally, involve participation by Ireland in all aspects of the Community, the precise political commitments of membership will depend on the progress which the Community can make towards the realisation of its political ideals. The Community in the present stage of its evolution, is committed only to the terms of the Rome Treaty, which does not, in itself, contain any commitments in the political field.

Up to the present time, progress towards the ultimate goal of political union in Europe has been slow. The Bonn Declaration of July, 1961, by which the Governments of the Six recorded their decision "to develop their political co-operation with a view to the union of Europe", was the closest approach to that goal. The Declaration has remained without effect, largely because of the differences which have manifested themselves among the Governments of the Six over the extent to which supranational authority should be vested in the Community institutions. Nevertheless, the quest for political unity has not been abandoned, and, so far as we in Ireland are concerned, we remain determined to play our full part in the new and greater Europe which we hope will, one day, emerge.

It might be asked whether membership of the European Economic Community would inhibit Ireland's activity at the United Nations. There is, in fact, no reason to suppose that such would be the case, and membership of the EEC would certainly not affect, in any way, our commitment to the principles of the United Nations' Charter or our desire to enhance the influence and prestige of the United Nations. In joining the EEC, we would endeavour to put into practice the fundamental principles of our Constitution which have characterised our activity in the United Nations, and we would seek to make the maximum contribution, within the limit of our resources, to the building of the new Europe, just as we have sought to play a useful role at the United Nations in the promotion of human welfare and the defence of world peace.

It will be evident from what I have said that participation in the European Communities involves the exercise, by Community institutions, of certain powers previously reserved to the Governments of the member States. I have in mind, particularly, the functions of the EEC Council in issuing regulations and adopting directives and decisions and the role of the Court of Justice as final arbiter on matters relating to the interpretation and application of the Rome Treaty.

This situation has certain implications for our own constitutional and legal arrangements. As I told the Dáil on 7th June, an interdepartmental Committee under the chairmanship of the Attorney General has been considering the question of whether the Constitution would need to be amended to enable this country to become a member of the European Communities and, if so, in what respects.

Examples of the matters which the Committee is considering in this connection are certain provisions of the Rome Treaty which take effect directly as law, e.g., Article 85, which prohibits various types of restrictive trade practices, the Community's regulations which also take effect directly in the member States, and the reference of cases to the Court of Justice by our Courts required by Article 177 of the Treaty. It is expected that the Committee's report will be submitted to the Government in the near future.

The Attorney General's Committee is also examining, with the individual Departments, the changes in our laws which membership of the Communties would require in the fields with which the Departments are concerned.

I should like to point out again that the Treaties establishing the Communities are mainly concerned with economic and commercial activities and related social matters, and it is in these areas that changes in our legislation will be necessary. Other aspects of domestic law need not be affected by membership.

To round off my remarks on the political aspects of EEC membership, I should like to emphasise that the political consequences of economic stagnation would, by reason of their much graver import, bear no relation to those arising from participation in the Community—and economic stagnation would be our fate if we remained outside a grouping which included our principal trading partners. Our strength and our capacity to develop as a political entity derive from our ability to maintain our position as a viable economic unit in an increasingly competitive world. Cut off from the opportunities for economic growth, our political freedom of action would be weakened.

The decision we have taken, however, rests on something more positive than anxiety to avoid the penalties of isolation, both economic and eventually political. The fundamental consideration which has induced us to seek membership of the European Community is that the Community is based on ideals and aims which appeal strongly to us and to which we can readily subscribe. Furthermore, the means by which these ideals and aims are to be realised accord closely with our own concept of how best we can achieve the kind of economic expansion of which the country is capable, with all that this implies in terms of increased employment, higher living-standards and improved social services. Membership of the Community would not, of course, automatically confer these benefits. It would merely provide the framework within which we would best develop our economic resources and, in this way, make our own modest contribution to the creation of a strong and prosperous Europe.

Here we come to the big question which presents itself to the public mind. To what extent can we expect, within the Community, to realise our economic potential, or, to put it in another way, what will the overall balance sheet of gains and losses look like?

It is clearly impossible at this stage to draw up a detailed estimate of future gains and losses. Any conclusions reached would have to be based on a wide range of hypotheses which, in themselves, would represent an attempt to define precisely the terms on which Ireland would accede to the Community. There are two objections to proceeding in this way. First, the conclusions reached would, of necessity, be extremely tentative and, so, of limited value. Second, and more important, the disclosure of the basis of our calculations could seriously undermine our negotiating position when the time comes to discuss terms of entry with the member States of the Community. I recall that the Leader of the Labour Party said in the Dáil on 11th May that we should fight hard to get the necessary conditions for agriculture and industry to ensure that our people will be employed here. This the Government aim to do but it would be unwise to make our task more difficult by setting out, here and now, the full details of our negotiating position.

The amendment put down by Deputy Corish would make it a condition of Dáil approval of the reactivation of our application that the Government put before the Dáil the terms of agreement they will negotiate for full membership of the EEC under Article 237 of the Treaty of Rome.

I feel it is necessary to spell out, for the information of the Dáil, the implications of any such conditional approval.

In the first place, it would tie the Government to a particular set of entry terms, leaving no room whatever for manoeuvre. In fact, negotiations in the real sense of the word would not be possible. Negotiations, as the term is commonly understood, are concerned with a range of possibilities—what I may describe as optimum and minimum terms—within the limits of which the parties might reasonably be expected to reach agreement. The range of possibilities could vary with the issue involved, and the object of negotiations would be not alone to reach agreement on each issue but also to achieve a reasonable overall balance. If this process is to be carried through to a satisfactory conclusion, the Government must have a certain freedom of manoeuvre, always bearing in mind the minimum terms which they can afford to accept.

The second point I want to make is that, if Deputy Corish's proposal is that the Government should put before the Dáil the minimum terms they are prepared to accept, I shall have to oppose any such move, for the obvious reason that the advance disclosure of minimum terms would immediately rule out the possibility of our negotiating better terms.

Finally, I would remind Deputies that in none of the applicant countries has the national parliament sought to have defined in detail in advance the terms of entry which the government will negotiate. In each instance, the responsibility of the government is to negotiate the best terms it can and to present these terms to the national parliament for ratification. To proceed in any other way would be to confuse the functions of the legislature and the executive.

I recognise the concern which underlines Deputy Corish's proposal, but I hope that the considerations I have put forward will be sufficient to demonstrate that it is not a proposal which should be adopted.

To avoid any misunderstanding about what is negotiable, I would like to point out that, while certain of the Community's arrangements, principally those concerned with voting procedures, financial contributions and representation in the European Parliament, must necessarily be altered in an enlarged Community, a newly-acceding country can expect that it will be required to accept the general body of arrangements already made for the conduct of the Community affairs, whether these are set out in the Treaty of Rome or elaborated in various decisions and regulations adopted under the Treaty. For us, negotiations will consist largely of the revision of voting procedures and similar changes consequent on the admission of new members and the agreeing of transitional terms, as may be necessary, covering other aspects of membership. The Dáil will be given an opportunity of debating the terms of entry as part of the procedure for ratifying Ireland's accession to the Treaty of Rome. For the present, however, any discussion must, in general, be set in the framework of the eventual obligations of membership, which are fully described in the White Paper published last April. Other obligations will emerge between now and the date of our entry, according as additional implementing decisions are adopted by the Community. These will be brought to the notice of the Dáil and public in whatever may be the most appropriate way.

It is in the light of the known obligations for membership and of the advantages which we would expect to derive that I propose to speak about Ireland's position. So far as possible, I will take account of the need for transitional arrangements to enable us to adapt to Community conditions, but I would repeat that it would be contrary to our interests to set out here the full details of any transitional arrangements which we may feel obliged to seek in the course of negotiations.

The two sectors of the economy with which we must principally concern ourselves in any discussion of the implications of membership of the EEC are agriculture and industry.

It is in these two sectors that membership will have the most immediate impact, and it is in these sectors, therefore, that we have concentrated the main thrust of our efforts to prepare the economy for participation in the EEC. I shall, in my remarks following, be dealing with the implications for agriculture and industry, in so far as it is possible to do so at this stage, and with the action taken by the Government to encourage and assist the adaptation of these sectors to Common Market conditions. This action embraces a wide range of measures directed to the remedying of particular weaknesses and also the general reorganisation of our external trade policy in a direction that will enable the economy to meet successfully the challenge of competition in the EEC. The response to these measures has, in general, been encouraging. I do not maintain that it has everywhere been satisfactory but this is a separate issue. The Government can—and do—give financial and technical help; they can advise and persuade but they cannot compel. I repudiate the suggestion in the amendment put down by the leader of the Fine Gael Party that the Government could have taken more realistic preparatory steps to adapt the economy to the kind of conditions we shall encounter in the EEC.

So far as agriculture is concerned, I should like to make some general points at the outset. First of all, Irish agriculture is very much an export industry and, over the years, it has already been meeting the keenest competition in markets abroad. Secondly, the agricultural benefits to be derived from membership of the EEC and participation in the common agricultural policy will depend essentially on the efficiency, skill and enterprise of our production, processing and marketing. Thirdly, our policy in recent years has been specifically aimed at equipping Irish agriculture to compete in the altered conditions which will apply to our entry into the Community and to derive the maximum benefit from membership.

The fundamental attraction of EEC membership for Irish agriculture is something more than the higher prices which will apply to our principal products. It also includes the advantage that we shall be competing in a large market at prices which are remunerative and are also comparable to those paid to other producers within the Community. In other words, the agricultural producers with whom we shall be competing will not have the great advantages over us which most of them have at present. Deputies will notice that the word "competing" keeps cropping up. This is not an accident, since competition, but on equal terms, is inseparable from the common agricultural policy of the EEC. It may be said that, as our farmers have been competing on unequal terms in export markets for so long, competition on equal terms can only be sheer gain. This is broadly true but we must not lose sight of the fact that there will be more competitors, and that there will be competition for our farmers on our own Irish market. Thus, there may be some losses as well as the gains, and it is necessary to bear this in mind when considering our participation in the Community's agricultural arrangements.

The EEC common agricultural policy had begun to take shape when the Government here were drawing up the Second Programme for Economic Expansion in 1963, and the agricultural part of the Programme was directed towards assisting our agricultural industry to develop production, processing and marketing and to improve efficiency in all sectors. In framing the policy set out in the Programme, account was taken of the reports of the Survey Teams appointed to examine the various sectors of the agricultural industry in the context of this country's membership of the EEC. The Government have pressed on with the policy then outlined and have steadily stepped up the aids and supports to agriculture to enable it to prepare for the era of intense competition which lies ahead. I have deliberately come back to this idea of competition because, if one had to sum up in one phrase the implications for Irish agriculture of membership of the EEC, it would be "better prices with increased competition".

A special study of the implications of EEC membership for Irish agriculture is being undertaken by the National Agricultural Council, with the help of an expert group including representatives of the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries, the Department of Finance, An Foras Talúntais and the universities.

A complete definitive analysis of the implications for Irish agriculture of membership of the EEC will not, however, be possible for some time, for a number of reasons. The common agricultural policy will not be fully operative until the middle of next year, and even the existing six member countries will not be in a position to analyse fully its effects on their own agriculture until the common policy has been in operation for a period. Also, the common price-levels which have been fixed may be altered, to some extent, on the admission of new members, and, in any event, they are subject to change and review within the existing Community. Furthermore, as Britain will remain our principal market for agricultural products within an enlarged Community, our benefits from the common agricultural policy may well be affected by the length of any transitional period that Britain may negotiate for changing over to the Community system.

Nevertheless, even at this stage, some broad assumptions can be made. Because of the aim of the common agricultural policy to relate market prices to costs of production under Western European conditions, it is a reasonable assumption that there will be no substantial reduction in the common price-levels which have already been fixed. These common levels are higher than our prices for most products. The common target price for beef is quite attractive in relation to our current price, and the common target price for milk is also appreciably above our price.

On the basis of our 1966 exports and allowing for such factors as the level at which intervention to support the market would apply, the value of cattle and beef exports could increase by, in round figures, about £30 million, while the return from dairy produce exports could increase by £10 million or more. Thus, beef and milk production, which together account for nearly 60 per cent of our agricultural production, should benefit appreciably from membership. Mutton and lamb, which account for about 5 per cent of our agricultural production, are not so far subject to a Community market regulation but. given the opportunity of competing on equal terms with British and Continental producers, our sheep and lamb producers should improve their position significantly.

In the case of tillage crops, which account for 13 per cent of our agricultural production, there is not the same scope for improvement. Our prices for wheat and sugar-beet are already at or above the common target prices in the EEC but our price for barley is somewhat below the EEC level. The Community have not, so far, adopted any arrangements relating to potatoes. In the case of the grain-based products, namely pigs, poultry and eggs, which account for about 20 per cent of our agricultural production, we could expect costs of production to go up to some extent because of higher prices for feeding stuffs but there would also be higher market prices to offset the higher costs of production, and so efficient producers should be able to earn a fair margin of profit. The most sensitive sector for us is likely to be horticulture, which accounts for about 3 per cent of our agricultural production. The present protection of tariffs and quantitative import restrictions would have to be removed under the EEC regulations, and this would expose our producers to keen competition. A new scheme of grants for the glasshouse industry has, however, been recently introduced by the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries to enable the industry to increase its competitive efficiency. A common policy for fish has not yet been adopted by the EEC. While there may be increased competition for our fishing industry on the home and British markets, there would be improved access to Continental markets.

Taking agriculture as a whole, the income of the farming community generally should show a worthwhile net improvement, allowing for some increases in the costs of production and in the cost of living. An important feature of such improvement in farm incomes would be that not only would farmers have more money to spend or to save but that this extra income would come from the market prices for the products and not from the pockets of the taxpayers. For an agricultural exporting country, any system which provides the farmer with a fair return from the market is much sounder than a system under which the non-agricultural sector has to compensate the agricultural sector for uneconomic prices on export markets.

It could happen that, under the EEC system, market developments of one kind or another could depress the market price of a product below the level aimed at as a fair return. To meet this contingency, provision is made, in the case of most agricultural products, for support buying if the overall market price falls a certain amount below the target price. It also could happen that products might have to be exported outside the Community at uneconomic prices. In such event, the regulations provide, subject to certain conditions, for the payment of rebates or subsidies to the exporters. The support measures are financed from a central fund, the European Agricultural Guidance and Guarantee Fund, which, in turn, is financed partly by contributions from member Governments and partly by levies on imports of agricultural products from non-member countries.

We would have to pay a proportionate share of the amount which is met by Government contributions, and this share would be fixed during our entry negotiations. We would also have to remit to the Fund the equivalent of most, or all, of the receipts from levies on agricultural imports from non-member countries. At present, these imports amount to between £20 and £25 million annually, and, if we were to continue to import the same volume from non-member countries and not to transfer our purchases to other members of the Community, the amount of levy payable on them would broadly represent the difference between the world price at the time of import and the EEC price. The present financial arrangements governing the agricultural operations in the EEC are, however, due to be revised by 1969, and so, a detailed analysis of the future financial implications is not possible at this juncture. It seems reasonable to assume that the Irish contribution to the financing of the common agricultural policy would not involve any extra burden on the Irish taxpayer and that the levies on agricultural imports would be far outweighed by the improvement in export earnings. The balance-of-payments position would be strengthened as a result of greater export earnings.

So far, most of my remarks have been related to the price aspect of the common agricultural policy. But there is another important aspect which is now receiving increasing attention within the Community. This is the structural aspect, which covers the whole body of production and living conditions in the agricultural industry. A major task for the member States is to eliminate the structural deficiencies hampering agriculture and the Community has decided that the first step should be to co-ordinate the structural policies of member States. A largescale operation to gather information on farming conditions and the nature and extent of agricultural production within the Community is at present under way. At the same time, the Community is assembling particulars of farm accounts on typical farms in various parts of member States, so that farm income can be assessed.

In the Community, as in the rest of the Western world, the agricultural population is declining. The principles on which the common agricultural policy is based provide, however, that every means should be used to strengthen the economic and competitive capacity of family farms. The Community has not worked out a policy specifically to meet the smallfarm problem, which is regarded as part of the overall task of improving agricultural structure. Individual Governments will be permitted to give aid for structural improvements but the scope of such aid will be subject to scrutiny by the Commission because of the danger that it could distort competition. Financial assistance is provided by the Community for helping to remove structural deficiencies, up to £100 million per annum being available at present for this purpose. Priority is given to projects which form part of a group of measures aimed at encouraging harmonious development of the general economy of an area, and national and local contributions to the cost are expected. On becoming a member of the Community, this country would be eligible for assistance for structural improvements on the same basis as the other members, and we would, of course, be free to put forward projects for consideration by the Commission. The expected improvement in overall agricultural conditions here which would result from EEC membership should greatly help our small farmers and make a significant contribution towards improving the situation in the western areas.

On the whole, it can be assumed that Irish agriculture will derive worthwhile benefits from membership of the EEC. This applies especially to our cattle industry, which, because of the unequal and distorted conditions under which international trade in cattle and beef is carried on, has hitherto been unable to make the most of its comparative advantages. The dairying sector, too, should benefit appreciably but to a smaller extent. On the other hand, the position for some tillage crops and for horticulture could be more difficult. It should not be assumed, however, that entry into the EEC would solve all problems for Irish agriculture. Conditions for our farmers generally would certainly be better but, after the initial adjustments had occurred, such benefits as would continue to accrue to our agricultural industry would depend entirely on the competitive efficiency of all concerned with the production, processing and marketing of our agricultural products.

Participation in the common agricultural policy will inevitably have consequences whose impact will be felt throughout the economy as a whole. I have in mind particularly the effect on the level of economic activity generally of improved agricultural income which will accrue from higher prices in both the domestic and export markets and the less welcome effect of such higher prices on the cost of living.

The agricultural sector accounts for about one-fifth of our national product. Any substantial increase, therefore, in the absolute level of agricultural income will impart a stimulus to the economy as a whole, through the resultant increase in expenditure on goods and services and, I hope, in savings and investment. Furthermore, it will be possible to effect a redeployment of expenditure at present absorbed by agricultural pricesupports, which will no longer be necessary in Community conditions. In this way, economic expansion can be assisted through the direction of resources to other productive purposes.

A direct consequence, of course, of the higher prices which agricultural producers will receive for sales in the domestic market is some increase in food-prices and, to the extent that this increase is not offset in other directions, some rise in the cost of living. The calculations that can be made under this head are subject to various qualifications. The levels of EEC and world food-prices at the time of our entry would be important factors, and these cannot be predicted at this stage. Furthermore, changes in the pattern of consumption which might be induced by the new conditions obtaining would affect the outcome.

However, a provisional estimate has been made, which assumes that EEC target prices and world prices remain unchanged—and this is a large assumption—but takes account of consequential changes in the pattern of consumption of food products. The provisional estimate suggests that the upward adjustment in the consumer price-index as a whole would be of the order of 3½ per cent. This increase would be gradual and would not, in fact, be disproportionate to increases we have experienced in the past.

In the industrial sector, our principal concern will be the effect of the elimination of protection against imports from the enlarged Community and the application of the common external tariff to imports from other countries. On the other hand, we shall stand to benefit from the removal of the import duties which the present members and the acceding countries other than Britain apply to our exports to their markets.

We are already in the course of removing our protection against virtually all our imports of British industrial goods, in accordance with the Anglo-Irish Free Trade Area Agreement. The commitments we have entered into under that Agreement will be a good preparation for the discipline of free trade in a wider European setting; they will also facilitate our entry into the EEC. In general, the timetable laid down in the Agreement requires us to complete the removal of protection against imports from Britain over a transitional period ending in June, 1975. Our aim will be to secure somewhat similar arrangements in the EEC.

The Free Trade Area Agreement left us freedom to vary the level of protection against countries other than Britain but, as members of the EEC, we would be obliged to align our tariffs on imports from non-member countries with the common external tariff of the EEC. The obligation to apply the common external tariff on items which are at present free of duty in the Irish tariff will have some implications in relation to materials required for industry but, against this, there will be the advantage of the removal of duties on Irish products exported to other members of the Community.

The degree to which our entry into the EEC would affect our manufacturers' share of the home market will vary from industry to industry. Where the main competition is likely to come from British sources, then the opening of our market to EEC goods may not be a critical factor, since we are, in any event, committed to free trade with Britain by mid-1975. Where, however, the main source of competition would come from other countries of the enlarged Community, the effects of eliminating protection against Community goods will constitute a significant new element.

Membership of the EEC could result in some increase in competition from non-member countries, since the general level of our protective duties is higher than that of the common external tariff. In addition to adopting the common tariff, it will also be necessary for us to bring other aspects of our commercial relations with non-EEC countries into line with the common commercial policy of the Community, which has yet to be worked out in detail.

It would be foolish to pretend that membership of the enlarged Community will not pose problems for Irish industry. But our prospects for a progressive industrial economy providing a high level of employment depend on our having access to expanding export markets, and our objective could not be achieved in the contracting market which would be available to us if we were to remain in isolation.

We are now entering an era in which the only assurance of survival for an industry will lie in its capacity to produce goods which will match those of its competitors in quality and price and to deliver them to the right place at the right time. Obsolete methods, outmoded restrictive practices, or inefficiency at management or production level will bring swift retribution. These considerations are indeed relevant whether we succeed in joining the EEC or not, because we are, in any case, already committed to free trade in the somewhat narrower area of Anglo-Irish trade. The general industrial advance achieved by all the EEC —and, indeed, the EFTA countries—is an encouragement to expect that, if free trade is properly prepared for, most of the difficulties originally anticipated will not materialise.

When our application for membership of the EEC was lodged in 1961, we were prepared, in return for access to the agricultural and other benefits of Community membership, to accept obligations leading generally to the elimination of protection by 1970. Our industries have had the benefit of the intervening period in which to prepare, and they have had available the financial aids and advisory services provided by the Government to facilitate adaptation and rationalisation. A general transitional period extending from the date of our accession to the EEC up to mid-1975 could not now be regarded as imposing an unreasonable timetable on Irish industry.

The first major step in preparing industry for membership of the European Community was taken in 1961, when the Committee on Industrial Organisation began its survey of Irish industry. The Committee studied the industrial situation very thoroughly and its recommendations were comprehensive.

A review of the progress made by industry in adapting itself to free-trade conditions is at present being carried out. An examination of the implications of membership, in so far as our industries are concerned, is also being made, on the assumption that we shall be allowed a transitional period of four or five years for the removal of protection and for the application of the rules of the Community generally in so far as they affect industry. When I speak of a transitional period of four or five years, I mean a period after 1970, which, as I have said, is taken to be the earliest date by which we are likely to be a member.

Deputies will recall that, in its final report, which was published slightly more than two years ago, the Committee on Industrial Organisation estimated that, if our industries were to survive in free trade conditions, drastic measures of adaptation and readjustments would be necessary. The Committee indicated the measures that would have to be taken if the loss of jobs in free trade conditions were not to exceed what it considered to be a practicable limit, namely 7 per cent of industrial employment. I should emphasise that, as the Committee explained, its estimate had to be seen in the context of an anticipated net increase in industrial employment by 1970. Although the CIO was unable to give, for all manufacturing industries, an estimate of what would happen if suitable adaptation measures were not taken, it did make such an estimate in respect of the twenty-six sectors of industry which the Committee had surveyed. That estimate showed that, with adequate adaptation, redundancy could be reduced to one-quarter of what it otherwise might be, that is, from 21,000 to 5,000.

The most recent information available to me, and, in particular, information about adaptation grants approved, suggests that very substantial progress has been made with the physical aspects of adaptation, such as modernisation of plant and equipment. I cannot pretend, nor does my colleague, the Minister for Industry and Commerce, pretend, to be satisfied with the tempo of adaptation in aspects other than the physical aspects, and, even where the physical aspects are concerned, we should both like to see things going faster. I am aware that the Minister for Industry and Commerce is taking a personal and active interest in this matter, and I have every hope that industry will now realise, wherever it has not yet done so, that we are, at last, face to face with free trade. Broadly speaking, the furthest I should like to go, at this stage, is to say that we are much better prepared for free trade than we were when we first made our application to the Community and, if we are able not only to keep up but quicken the pace, we should by 1970 be able to view the future with reasonable confidence.

The Government, for their part, vigorously followed up the general recommendations of the CIO by providing industry with the means of modernisation, by way of special adaptation finance, increased technicalassistance grants and increased funds for the specialist State agencies which provide such valuable services for industry. The Government have also actively encouraged the establishment and development, within the various industries, of organisations specifically concerned with adaptation activities.

During the period which has since elapsed, investment by individual firms in re-equipment and expansion has been going on apace, and progress with physical adaptation, as measured by the investment plans of individual firms, may be considered good. Up to 31st March, 1967, some 800 applications for adaptation grants totalling some £14 million, has been approved by An Foras Tionscal. These applications involved investment plans of the order of £63 million. The Department of Industry and Commerce is continuing its work of encouraging firms to formulate adaptation and reorganisation plans.

Progress has also been made in such matters as rationalisation, training, co-operative marketing and design. In some measure, there has been a broadening in attitudes throughout industry which has facilitated such desirable developments as mergers, inter-firm production arrangements and co-operative export marketing, and, by and large, industry is now much better placed to meet conditions of freer trade than at the time of the CIO surveys. I should like to make special mention of the importance of co-operative export marketing and to express my gratification at the vigorous lead given in this by certain industries. These changes in attitudes will, I hope, continue to facilitate progress in all aspects of industrial adaptation.

The success of these policies is shown by the increase of 28 per cent that occurred in the volume of production of manufacturing industry in the five years 1961 to 1966. In that period, the contribution of industry to National Income rose from 27 per cent to over 31 per cent and industrial exports rose by almost 80 per cent raising industry's share of total exports to almost 41 per cent.

While it is good to note the effort which has been made in the past, we must be ever mindful of the continuing improvements in industrial techniques which, we may be sure, will be exploited to the full by our competitors. There are, therefore, no grounds for taking it easy. Our advances on all fronts of the industrial campaign must not only be continued but accelerated if we are to continue our industrial development into the era of free trade.

Apart from the measures taken to improve the competitive position of existing industry, there are other reasons why the Irish industrial sector as a whole should be in a better position to stand up to EEC competition than it was in 1961. In recent years, the policy of the Government has been to seek to facilitate the establishment of industries, many of them oriented almost exclusively towards exports, which do not require tariff or other protection. These industries should have nothing to fear, and indeed, much to gain, from participation in the EEC. We should hope that membership of the EEC, which would provide dutyfree access for Irish goods to a vast and expanding market, would enhance the attractions of Ireland as a base for industrial development. Every new industry established would, of necessity, be geared to EEC conditions in terms of both competition and marketing opportunities, thus strengthening further the position of the industrial sector as a whole.

It will be clear from what I have said on the implications of membership for agriculture and industry that it is essential that Ireland's entry to the Community should take place simultaneously with that of Britain in view of our close trading relations with that country. I have stressed this point during my recent visits to Governments of the Six, as well as in my discussions with the British Prime Minister, and expressed our wish that negotiations on our application should, as far as possible, take place concurrently with those of Britain. I am confident that our position in this regard is fully understood and appreciated.

It will be recalled that, in reply to a Dáil question on 13th July arising out of the British Foreign Secretary's speech to the Western European Union on 4th July, I said that I had sought clarification of the British proposal for a standstill of one year after Britain's entry in order to give other countries, including Ireland, time to complete their negotiations.

I have now been assured by the British Prime Minister that, having welcomed most warmly the Irish Government's decision to seek membership of the Community at the same time as Britain, the British Government will do anything they can to further our ends. He has explained that the suggestion for a year's standstill was intended to provide an adequate measure of insurance for the maintenance of Anglo-Irish trading relations in the hypothetical eventuality of Ireland's negotiations falling behind those of Britain, for reasons outside the control of either Government.

It is, of course, of the utmost importance to Ireland that there should be no damaging hiatus in our trade relations and this can be most surely guarded against by the simultaneous accession of Ireland and Britain to the EEC. I intend, therefore, to re-affirm to the British Government, and to continue to emphasise both in our direct contacts with the member Governments of the Six and in negotiations on our application, that it is our earnest desire, for valid reasons, that these negotiations should be so arranged and brought to finality that Ireland will become a member at the same time as Britain. Our position on this matter has been recognised and accepted in the three capitals I have already visited.

Transition to EEC conditions embraces something more than the elimination of protection in the form of tariffs and quotas. It is one of the basic aims of the Rome Treaty to ensure fair conditions of trade throughout the Community in the interest of the fuller and more effective development of the Common Market. Thus, the Treaty contains provisions laying down rules of competition for the purpose. These rules prohibit directly, or provide machinery for the prohibition of, restrictive trade practices such as agreements between trading interests relating to price-fixing, the limitation of production and market-sharing. Similar provisions apply to the grant of State aids, with certain exceptions, such as, for example, aids of a social character or aids designed to promote regional or economic development. Taxation arrangements which discriminate, or can be used to discriminate, in favour of domestic production are ruled out, and provision is made for the approximation of the legislative and administrative practices of member States where it is found that discrepancies operate to frustrate or distort free competition. There is provision also against dumping during the period before the creation of a single Community market.

Compliance with the rules of competition would not, in general, raise any special difficulties for us. Indeed, the rules would be welcome, in so far as they would provide a measure of protection for our industrialists and traders against unfair trade practices and for our consumers against unduly high prices.

Our State aids to industry would come under review to ensure that they are in line with Community principles. It is thought, however, that, by and large, our aids to industrial development would not be significantly affected.

In the agricultural sector, State aids for the support of prices and certain other purposes would, in general, be replaced by the arrangements set out in the common agricultural policy. As I mentioned already, aids to structural improvements in agriculture would continue to be permissible but would come under scrutiny by the Commission, so as to guard against the distortion of competition.

In the field of taxation, the aim is the elimination of discriminatory arrangements which favour domestic products at the expense of imported products and the harmonisation of taxes which affect the production of and trade in goods. The first major step in that direction has been the decision, taken early this year by the Council, requiring the adoption of a uniform system of added-value tax. We must assume that further similar decisions relating to other taxes will follow over the next few years.

In preparation for entry to the Community, we are currently examining the changes that would have to be made in our tax system to bring it into line with Community arrangements.

Our present system of export tax-reliefs would come under review but I would hope that it would be possible, in the negotiations, to secure agreement to the retention of these measures for their statutory life.

An aspect of competition policy in the EEC which causes us some concern is the procedure for dealing with cases of dumping. While we are glad to note that dumping has not been a problem in the Community, we are conscious of the vulnerability of Irish industry in this respect, because of the smallness of the home market and the size of individual enterprises. We would endeavour to ensure that, in so far as this might be a problem, satisfactory solutions would be available.

Complementary to freedom of movement for goods, freedom of movement for workers, freedom for EEC nationals and firms to establish businesses and other enterprises and to provide services throughout the Community, and also freedom of movement for capital are all regarded as necessary for the efficient functioning of the EEC. The Treaty provides for the achievement of these various objectives by 1970.

The right of workers to move freely from one member State to another for the purpose of taking up offers of employment actually made has already been substantially established under regulations adopted by the EEC. The grant of this right in our case would not, it is thought, have more than a marginal effect on the Irish labour market. Given the general scarcity of labour in most of the present member States, it seems unlikely that there would be any large inflow of workers. On the other hand, the degree of outflow would continue to depend primarily, as at present, on the employment opportunities available at home.

Our policy as regards the right of establishment and the supply of services by non-nationals is generally liberal. Our insurance legislation is, however, protective, and some aspects of our practice in this field may have to be reviewed to bring them into line with whatever arrangements are adopted in the Community. Only very limited freedom has, so far, been established by the Community in the insurance sector but it is to be expected that greater freedom will gradually be realised.

The provisions regarding freedom of establishment apply to the purchase of, and settlement on, land. They are subject, however, to the principles of the common agricultural policy, which take into account the distinctive nature of agricultural activity, including its structural aspects. As in the case of insurance, only very limited progress has been made, so far, by the EEC in bringing the provisions into force. Bearing in mind the importance of farming in the Irish economy and the need to improve the structure of our agriculture, we would hope that it would be possible for us to retain sufficient regulation over the disposal of land to enable us to apply policies adequate to our needs.

As regards capital, while there is free movement of capital between Ireland and Britain, capital movements to all the present EEC member States none of which is in the sterling area, are subject to exchange control. Our existing practice under this head would not comply with Community requirements in various respects, even though the Community has still some distance to go before full freedom of capital movement is achieved between the member States.

In common with the other sterling-area countries, the object of our exchange control practice is to protect the monetary reserves of the sterling area, of which we are a member. Our practice generally parallels that of Britain, this being necessary to preserve the free flow of funds between the two countries. It appears that Britain proposes to seek transitional arrangements for the application of the EEC provisions to certain types of capital investment. The question of suitable arrangements in this connection will also arise in our case.

I may add that membership of the EEC may be expected to enhance the flow of investment capital to Ireland both from the Community and from other sources.

The prospect of participation in the EEC gives added impetus to the consideration being given to the decimalisation of our currency and to the adoption of the metric system of weights and measures.

The Government have already accepted decimalisation in principle, and the various practical problems which would arise are being examined. Deputies will have seen the booklet issued recently by the Minister for Finance outlining the considerations involved in the choice of a suitable unit. The views of interested groups and persons have been invited. These will be taken into account by the Government in reaching their decision, which it is hoped to make at an early date.

The question of adopting the metric system is a complex one and has been under examination for some time. The Government hope to be able to make an announcement on this subject in the coming months.

One of the objectives of the Rome Treaty, as recorded in the preamble to it, is the strengthening of the unity of the economies of the member countries. This unity rests basically on the customs union, as extended by the common agricultural policy, the free movement of persons, enterprises and capital and the application of common rules designed to equalise conditions of competition. The effectiveness of these measures could be considerably diminished if the member countries pursued conflicting or divergent economic policies. According as the Common Market develops and economic barriers disappear, the economies of the member countries will become increasingly inter-dependent and conditions in one country will exert a greater influence on conditions throughout the Community as a whole. In these circumstances, inconsistent national policies could damage or impede the functioning of the Common Market and thereby render more difficult the task of achieving economic union.

The Rome Treaty, therefore, includes a number of provisions which are designed to secure the co-ordination of the economic policies of the member States.

I have no reason to believe that membership of the Community would give rise to difficulties for us in the field of economic policy. The aims of the Treaty in this respect are acceptable to us. Indeed, we would support strongly any measures designed to ensure balanced and steady expansion in the countries with which we would be closely linked, since the Irish economy is by its nature, sensitive to the external environment in which it has to operate. The achievement of our own economic aims would be greatly facilitated by Community measures to sustain and ensure a steadily rising level of economic activity.

Reactivation of our application for membership of the European Economic Community and the uncertainty as to its outcome have particular implications for economic planning. They arise midway through the Second Programme for Economic Expansion and coincide with the conduct of a review of that programme. Strictly understood, a review requires no more than measuring progress and shortfalls against the programme targets, but there would be little virtue in a review that did no more than this.

Abundant information, which has been the subject of extensive analysis and comment, has already been made available, from official sources and through the NIEC, on the progress of the economy from 1964 onwards, and there is little that is fresh that can be added to it. The more substantive part of the review necessarily concerns the lessons of our experience, the assessment of future prospects and the measures needed to attain the objectives.

The lessons of our experience are clear and confirm once more the general validity of the conditions of our economic progress stressed in the Second Programme. The difficulties, at this point of time, arise in the assessment of future prospects and the formation of appropriate policies. The development of events up to 1970 and after depends heavily on the outcome of our application to join the EEC. To be worthwhile, a re-appraisal of the potential growth of the economy over this period and the means by which it is to be realised must be based on the firmest possible information on the timing and conditions of membership, the length of any transitional period and other vital considerations. Policies and actions not related to reasonably firm prospects in these crucial areas could prove not just to be badly founded but to be dangerous. They might have to be changed or reversed within a short period, with consequential disruptive effects. Moreover, the publication of plan revisions based on particular views on the timing of the availability of EEC benefits could seriously prejudice the negotiating position of the Irish team in Brussels.

In these circumstances, the Government have decided that the best course is to proceed as follows:

First, to complete the review of progress under the Second Programme, supplementing it by reference to the re-assessment of industrial preparations for free trade now proceeding and linking it with the 1967 review of both industrial and general economic conditions. All this will be done in consultation with the NIEC.

Secondly, according as the EEC position is clarified, a programme of policy and action will be prepared which will be specifically related to the external trading conditions Ireland is likely to face within the next few years. This would most usefully take the form of a Third Programme.

Meanwhile, there will be no hiatus in economic planning. For the immediate future, the objectives will be, first, to get back to a steady, sustainable growth-rate based on a realistic view of what can be attained in the short term, and on careful management of all internal disturbing influences, particularly public expenditure, credit and money incomes; secondly, to improve efficiency and raise productivity in all sectors so as to prepare the economy for increasing international competition; and, thirdly, to initiate the changes in attitudes and policies necessary to set the Third Programme firmly in the perspective of the eventual aim of full employment.

This interim planning will be directed towards making the best use of resources within the limits of a tolerable balance of payments deficit; it will be based on the annual review of industry and of economic progress generally, and will be guided by budgetary and other ad hoc policy.

Preparatory work on a Third Programme will proceed contemporaneously and will be associated closely with the analysis now required to assess in detail the implications of EEC membership and its effects on the economy. As the likely outcome of our application and the conditions of entry, including transitional arrangements, become clearer, the preparatory work can take account of them to provide a realistic basis for economic policy over the period of the Third Programme. Commencement of this period need not necessarily coincide with the expiry of the current programme, and it might also cover a shorter period than the seven years of the Second Programme.

The course of action I have outlined will make the best use of the limited expert resources available in the public service and in the private sector. It will permit concentration of effort on the first priority, namely, the negotiation of satisfactory terms of entry to the EEC and assessing the implications of membership, while, at the same time, integrating the results into the framework of medium-term planning. It would be difficult, if not impossible, to do this efficiently if resources were diverted to a formal reshaping of the final stage of the Second Programme.

The Government have consulted the NIEC on these matters and have had the benefit of the Council's advice in formulating their course of action.

In the Community, as elsewhere, economic progress is not an end in itself but is rather the means by which the improvement of living and working conditions generally is to be assured. The Rome Treaty envisages, in Article 117, that this improvement will be brought about, in the first place, through the operation of the Common Market, which will favour the harmonisation of social systems. This is a reasonable expectation, since, in an economic union, differences in social systems will, in time, tend to be evened out.

I should like to point out, however, that the Treaty does not prescribe a uniform social welfare code, nor would there be any question of our having to make extensive changes in our social-welfare arrangements to adapt them to a Community system. In fact, the social-welfare systems of the present member States differ widely both as regards their structure and the level of benefits. I think it necessary to make this point, as the remarks made by the Leader of the Labour Party in the Dáil on 11th May seemed to imply the existence of a uniform Community system.

The tendency towards harmonisation, which the operation of the Common Market favours, is being assisted by a process of collaboration on various aspects of social policy, such as employment, working conditions, labour and trade union legislation, social security and vocational training. This collaboration takes the form of the promotion of studies, the giving of opinions and the organisation of consultations.

There is one aspect of social policy in respect of which membership of the Community entails a specific obligation, that is the application of the principle of equal pay for the same work as between men and women. In the case of a newly-acceding country a transitional period would, no doubt, be negotiable. The existing member States allowed themselves a four-year period up to 1962, which was subsequently extended, but the principle is not yet uniformly applied throughout the Community.

Membership of the EEC also entails membership of the other two European Communities, the European Atomic Energy Community — EURATOM — and the European Coal and Steel Community—ECSC. Parts II and III of the White Paper on the European Communities gave particulars of the objectives and the provisions of the Treaties which established these two Communities. The six member countries have recently merged the separate Councils and Executives of the three Communities, and this will pave the way for the eventual fusion of the Communities.

As a member of EURATOM, we would have a right of access to the results of that Community's research into the application of nuclear science and techniques in medicine, agriculture and industry and to other nuclear facilities. Looking ahead, this could be very useful in the context of the erection of a nuclear power station, when that question eventually arises.

As far as coal is concerned, membership of the ECSC would not involve any onerous obligation for this country. Policy as regards coal production has been considered from time to time by the ECSC in the light of efforts to evolve a co-ordinated policy covering the different sources of energy. The three Communities, in consultation with one another, are working towards a common energy policy and have agreed on certain general objectives for the eventual policy. It is not expected that these would raise any difficulties for us.

Our entry into the Communities would involve the elimination of import duties, and other restrictions, on trade in iron and steel with the member States but, as in the case of the removal of industrial protection generally, we would hope to secure a transitional period for the purpose. Adaptation measures are already being taken in the steel industry to meet the increased competition which will result from the reduction of import duties under the Free Trade Area Agreement. The position of Irish Steel Holdings is at present the subject of comprehensive examination, which will take account of the implications for the company of our membership of the Communities.

Before concluding my remarks, I should like to deal with the contention, in the Fine Gael amendment, that the Government have failed to take more realistic steps abroad in preparation for membership of the EEC. To refute, once and for all, this contention and, to put in its proper perspective the action taken by the Government externally, I think it well to recall the situation that existed following the suspension of action on our application in January, 1963, consequent on the breakdown of the British negotiations.

The breakdown of the British negotiations ruled out any progress being made, for the time being, on our application. In these circumstances, the Government's first concern, having reiterated their continued desire for membership of the EEC, was to endeavour to come to some agreement with the Community which, in the interim period before membership again became a possibility, would reduce the barriers to trade between us and so obtain for Irish products improved access in the markets of the Six. It was made clear to us that there was no possibility of a bilateral exchange of preferences with the Community which would, at the same time, have enabled us to preserve our special trading relationship with Britain.

Failing the making of such an arrangement, our task remained, in the interim period, to keep ourselves fully informed of Community policies and developments and to assess their likely significance for this country when membership is achieved, to continue to keep before the Governments of the member States our desire for membership at the earliest possible opportunity and to acquaint these Governments and the Commission with particulars of the measures which we were taking at home with a view to the preparation of the economy for membership. This was the Government's essential task in the circumstances that existed at the time, and hindsight has now confirmed that the task was accomplished satisfactorily and realistically. It was accomplished through periodic contacts at Ministerial level with the Governments of the Six and the Commission and through the constant activity in relation to the EEC of our diplomatic missions in Europe.

By the second half of 1966, with the resolution of the crisis in the Community, the major agreements reached by the Governments of the Six in the agricultural sector and the resumption of progress in the Kennedy Round, a situation emerged where the reactivation of negotiations with applicant States for membership again became a real possibility. This coincided with the initiative taken by the British Government in relation to the EEC, an initiative which was essential if there was to be any progress towards an enlargement of the Community. At that time, the Government began to intensify, as the circumstances warranted, their activities and preparations in the external field.

A series of Ministerial visits to the Commission was arranged, beginning with the visit in September, 1966, of myself as then Minister for Finance, and the Minister for External Affairs. This was followed in subsequent months by visits by the Ministers for Agriculture and Fisheries, Industry and Commerce and Labour. The Government also decided that the time was opportune for the opening of a separate Mission to the European Communities, and the Mission commenced its activities, which were concentrated exclusively on the furtherance of our application for membership, in October, 1966. In addition, the activities of our diplomatic missions in the capitals of the Six and in the capitals of other countries seeking membership were increasingly geared to EEC matters.

These Ministerial contacts and the work of our Mission to the European Communities and our Embassies in the capitals of the Six have been supplemented, where necessary, by visits to Brussels of officials of the various Departments for the purpose of obtaining firsthand briefing from the Commission on various aspects of the Communities' policies and developments of concern to their Departments. As a result, the Government are thoroughly informed of all aspects of these policies and developments and have, in the White Paper on the European Communities published in April, made available to the Oireachtas, industrialists and farmers and the public generally, full information on them. The information which we have obtained, and which we continue to obtain, affords the basis for an assessment of the implications for Ireland of membership of the European Communities.

In describing the obligations of membership of the Communities and how we stand in relation to them, I have endeavoured to give an insight into the impact of Community conditions on various aspects of our economic life. It is impossible to quantify, in any meaningful way, the effect of this impact in all its ramifications. As I said earlier, much will depend, particularly in the important industrial sector, on the transitional terms that can be negotiated, and, by this, I mean not alone the duration of any transitional period but also the stages by which the transition to Community conditions would have to be effected.

Much will depend also on the speed with which the process of adaptation to Community conditions is carried through, both in the time that remains before our entry and during any subsequent transitional period. It should not be necessary to point out that measures of industrial adaptation can most effectively be applied during the interval before entry, when we have freedom as to the measures we might adopt. I make this point in order to remind those who have been slow to prepare for free trade conditions of the advantage of acting now.

Another factor which will influence in a substantial degree the performance of the economy in Common Market conditions is the general economic climate, not only within the Community, but throughout the world. There is every reason to hope that economic conditions generally will continue to favour a steady expansion, as has been the experience over the past decade. The continuance of such favourable conditions will greatly assist our own efforts to surmount any difficulties which participation in the EEC may present.

Having carefully assessed the prospects in the light of all the available information, the Government saw no reason to depart from the conclusion reached in 1961 that it was within our capacity to assume the obligations of membership of the EEC and that the national interest would best be served by so doing. It was this consideration, allied to the desire to play our part in the creation of a new Europe, which prompted the Government to revive our application for membership when the opportunity presented itself last May.

There may be some who, while recognising that our destiny must inevitably be linked with that of an enlarged Community, will argue that that link should, as a matter of our preference, take the form of association rather than membership. Those who put forward this proposition must define precisely what they mean by association, a term which embraces a wide range of possibilities. They must recognise that an association agreement would have to provide for a balance of advantages and that any abatement of the obligations assumed, as compared with those of membership, would have to be matched by a reduction in the advantages received.

An obvious question presents itself: what obligations would they wish to see abated and what advantages would they be prepared to surrender? Another question that can be asked is: what is their attitude to the abdication of any right to participate in the formulation of Community policy in areas such as the fixing of the levels of agricultural prices or the negotiation of trade agreements with other countries? I bring up these questions in the hope that, if this issue is raised, it will be in terms worth debating and not in the form of airy generalities.

In conclusion, I would like to say something on the situation we would face if the present initiative to bring about an enlargement of the Community should fail. There is a danger that this possibility may tempt the less enterprising to sit back and do nothing, in the expectation that, if we fail to join the Community, there will be no need to prepare for the more rigorous conditions of free trade. This is a delusion. First, there is our commitment to free trade with Britain. Second, as the Government have repeatedly pointed out, world trade is moving towards freer conditions of competition. An example is the changes wrought by the Kennedy Round negotiations in the GATT, which will result in cuts in industrial tariffs by major trading countries of the order of 35 per cent. This is not the end of the matter. We can expect that there will be continuing efforts to bring about further reductions in tariffs and non-tariff barriers. This will mean increasing competition in our principal export markets. Moreover, the failure of international efforts to secure a corresponding freeing of trade in agricultural products puts an even greater burden on the industrial sector if we are to maintain the rate of economic growth we desire.

Finally, it should not be assumed that failure of the present initiative to bring about an enlargement of the EEC by the admission of Britain, Ireland and other countries would necessarily mean a continuance of the status quo. It is impossible to predict the response to this situation if it should arise. However, the challenge thrown up by such a situation would be likely to generate new thinking and new ideas, with, perhaps, proposals for changed or new trade or economic groupings outside the EEC.

The effort put into our preparations for membership of the EEC would not, in those circumstances, be wasted. In fact, the more comprehensive our preparations, the better placed we would be to participate in any alternative trading arrangements or economic groupings that might be open to us.

It would be shortsighted in the extreme, therefore, to slacken our efforts because of any uncertainty felt about the future. Whatever the future may bring, commonsense demands that we should continue, with all speed, the work of building a strong and competitive economy. This must remain our primary objective in all circumstances.

I think it will be clear from what I have said that, sharing as we do the ideals which inspire the movement towards European unity and accepting the means adopted by the Community towards this end, the achievement of membership of the Community must be a main objective of our national policies. While patience and perseverance will be necessary in pursuing our application, my visits so far to the capitals of the Six have increased my confidence in the ultimate certainty of the Community being enlarged to include Ireland, Britain and other countries.

There may be people who still have reservations about our entry to the EEC, but I think it must be clear that our future lies in participation in a wider economic grouping. Failure to achieve this objective would result in economic and political stagnation. We would be deprived of the favourable external opportunities we need for the expansion of production and the provision of new jobs for a rising population. The economic consequences would be too serious to contemplate even for those whose material wellbeing might hitherto have seemed invulnerable. Our people constitute a community in which each of us suffers if our neighbour suffers, and in which each of us accepts some restraint on his freedom of action in the interests of the community as a whole.

In the wider context of Europe there is taking shape another and greater Community to which we feel we should belong. This Community of peoples is inspired by an ideal which has led countries to accept restraints on their individual freedom of action. This ideal is that of a united Europe, economically strong and a powerful influence for peace. Some pooling of sovereignty is necessary to give the Community life and the capacity to grow into something greater than the sum of its parts. This is an ideal in the service of which we, too, in common with the other peoples of Europe, wish to play our part. The freedom we enjoy has been hard won. Other nations have fought hard for their freedom and they treasure it no less than we do. The countries which have subscribed to the Rome Treaty value what they have achieved as separate nations. They value, too, what they are creating in common. Our wish is to share in this great task.

I, therefore, recommend the motion for the approval of the House.

I should say at this stage that I understand the Whips have agreed that the debate should end at 10.30 p.m. tomorrow. An appropriate motion will be introduced to meet the order of the House tomorrow morning.

I second the motion.

I move the amendment in my name:

To delete the words after "That Dáil Éireann" and substitute the following:—

"defers a decision on the reactivation of Ireland's application for membership of the European Economic Community until the Government discloses the full implications which membership will have on national sovereignty, trade, employment, industry and agriculture, and until the Government puts before the Dáil the terms of agreement which it will negotiate for full membership of the European Economic Community under Article 237 of the Treaty of Rome."

The Taoiseach has been speaking for approximately an hour and a half. First of all, I should like to compliment him on making the first fairly lengthy speech on our application to join the EEC for many years. I do not believe there has been any major debate on our application for entry since about six or seven years ago. It seems to me that the Taoiseach and members of the Government still have not learned a lot. I and members of my Party certainly cannot share what appears to be the optimism and complacency of the Government with regard to what our position will be, should we become members of the EEC.

Without being too optimistic, the Taoiseach should have been factual and much more informative than he has been. I will say this for him, as against some of the booklets we have got from the Department of Finance, he has tried in some small degree to relate membership of the EEC to its implications for this country. We are doing a service to the country by voicing what we believe to be the concern of a great number of people as to the attitude of the Government towards membership of the EEC. We want to condemn the failure of the Government to put all the facts before the Irish people, and to condemn their failure to balance the advantages before reactivating our application, should Britain decide to apply.

Our amendment is still justified. After a speech lasting an hour and a half, we still have got little information. I was quite amused to hear the Taoiseach, apropos our amendment and the questions we have raised, saying that we must show what the implications of Irish membership of the EEC would be. It is true that we have the Library, and it is true that we can read the Government documents, but we have not got the same resources as the Government, not only in the Civil Service but in contacts abroad. We expected the Taoiseach to relate membership to the EEC to Irish conditions as they are now, and as they may be, if and when we attain full membership.

We tabled questions for very many months, and since the first application of Ireland for membership of the EEC and we were told that this information was not available. The Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries, Deputy Blaney, was asked the possible effects of the agricultural policy of the EEC on our balance of payments and on our agricultural industry and he said they had not a clue: they had not investigated that aspect for the first industry in the country. We were told that no such basic calculations had been carried out. Have they been carried out yet or are the National Agricultural Council engaging themselves in this problem to see how we shall stand as regards agriculture and our balance of payments if we become members of the EEC?

Our concern in this matter is not newborn. Last November, we tabled a motion which, at the time, did not get to the floor of the House. Again, there was no real effort by the Taoiseach in initiating the debate. He has been all around Europe. He has been in Bonn, in Rome, at The Hague and now he proposes to go to Brussels, Luxembourg and Paris. We do not know what is happening. Is the Taoiseach merely going to these gentlemen and asking them if they will support our application? I do not expect him to enter into detailed negotiation with those people but is he making them aware of our undoubted difficulties?

There is no use in talking about our marching proudly into Europe so long as we have a prospect of unemployment. We should not be ashamed to voice our difficulties. They are plainly visible in the details given out from month to month and, broadly, during Budget time. We are doubtful about the benefits of the EEC. The Taoiseach seems to think that everything will be rosy so far as agriculture is concerned and that we do not have to worry too much in regard to industry and, generally, the Government seems to hold the view that the balance of advantage will be with us. If I were convinced of this, I should change my attitude in regard to our agricultural industry but nothing the Taoiseach said here today has convinced me that we shall have the balance of advantage five, ten or 15 years hence.

The requests for facts from this side of the House have been frequent but have always met with a blank. We were told we were embarrassing the Government—embarrassing the Government because we wanted to know what would happen to people who are now engaged in the manufacture of furniture, because we wanted to know the employment prospects for people in certain industries which are now under protection and which, under the strict terms of the Treaty of Rome, will have to be divested of that protection by 1st July, 1968. Because the Labour Party were asking the Taoiseach and the Minister for Finance to go to Brussels, and other places, and to ask for concessions in respect of these factors, we were embarrassing the Government. This situation of non-availability of information is to be contrasted with that obtaining in the British Parliament where the fullest information has been given, but here, since 1961, we dare not ask a question—so much so that one of the newspapers gibed at myself and I think a Fine Gael Deputy for asking these questions as we were only embarrassing the Government.

Anything we say is said in good faith and in the interests of the people—and, of course, there is no real purpose in this motion by the Taoiseach. I think we are all agreed that it is put down merely to have a debate on membership of EEC. Whether or not the Dáil votes in favour of the motion does not make any difference because it is the Government who will decide whether or not application shall be made.

The decision on whether or not we should become members in accordance with the agreement that may be made between the EEC and this country will come before Dáil Éireann and then we shall have to vote. I am pretty certain of the type of vote we shall have on that occasion. I do not suggest that members of the Fianna Fáil Party are not aware entirely of what is going on but every Member of this House should be acquainted with every single detail of the implications of membership of Ireland of the EEC. When it comes to the Dáil, however, it will be something like the Anglo-Irish Free Trade Agreement—it may be too late, because, by the time that agreement came to the Dáil, the damage had been done. The Government Party just trooped into the division lobby and voted for what they were told was a good Agreement. Events have proved the contrary. We remember the optimism of the Government during the four-day debate in January of last year, an optimism they would not voice now, particularly as far as agriculture and the cattle trade are concerned.

I do not believe any Deputy can fully discharge his or her duty not alone to constituents but to the nation as a whole without being in possession of the full facts in relation to the Government's decision to reactivate our application. We are inclined to gloss too smoothly over these matters. This will be the biggest decision Dáil Éireann ever made and I include in that statement the Treaty debate and the Treaty decision. An awful lot of things will be decided. We talk about the fight for freedom, about independence, about full employment and about Second, Third and Fourth Programmes. We shall have to know everything that is to be known about Ireland's position within the EEC before we can give final judgment on it. It would seem that the Government Party accept the Taoiseach's broad assurances that everything will be all right and therefore I assume they will vote without question for membership of the EEC. To do so on that basis would be wrong. We in my Party will ask all the searching questions possible in order to elicit the facts to enable us to arrive at a decision.

The Taoiseach suggested that I or somebody in the Opposition should mention another course of action and show how it could be related to Ireland. It is the job of the Taoiseach to do that. We want him to do that. This is not any old decision. It is not even the Marts Bill or any of the amendments on it. This is a decision not alone to remove our trade barriers but to give to a federation of European countries a great portion of our sovereignty. This is a serious decision. It is something the Taoiseach has not emphasised. It is something that has not been mentioned until recently, until we reactivated Ireland's application in the past three, four or five months.

The debate cannot contain full discussion until all the information is available to us. I do not think the Government want to do this. It would appear to anybody who has studied the matter or who is interested in it that the Government are trying to railroad this country into membership of the EEC without the various details and implications of such a step being available to every Member of this House.

Consider the importance of this decision and the absence of facts as related to Ireland. We refuse to endorse this motion which stands in the name of the Taoiseach because the advantages and disadvantages of full membership of the EEC are not made known to us and—let me say this specifically to the Taoiseach—an assessment of the alternatives has not been made. Up to this, the policy seems more or less to have been "Get in". I do not think that is an unfair assessment of the Government attitude: "Let us get into Europe". It is all very well to talk of our missionaries and to say that we have the same culture as the people in Europe. We share an awful lot of things with them. Desire for world peace: opposition to communism—we are at one with them on these. That is all very well but it will not provide work or give our people a break.

Up to this, the attitude seems to have been: "If Britain joins, we do". It is very sad for Ireland to say that, 51 years after 1916, we have to admit, without saying it in words, that we have no freedom of choice. This is something we have to consider as well—our absolute dependence on Britain in things economic. It has been said repeatedly, sometimes in different ways, that we have no choice and that if Britain goes in, we go in, that we have no freedom. This demonstrates our dependence on Great Britain, after 45 years of what we call partial freedom. We have done nothing to rid ourselves of this financial and economic dependence—and shame on us—over the past 45 years.

This is a complex problem. It is not confined to the lowering of trade barriers. It needs detailed study and it is related to all aspects of economic and social life in Ireland. I believe, therefore, that if we gave approval, even though in fact it is not approval for the Government because they can do this on their own, it would be buying a pig in a poke. We have not got the facts and we cannot tell the people, the factory worker, or the farmer, what may happen in any sort of broad way. If we do that, then as a Party and individually it would be tantamount to the abdication of our responsibilities.

I do not know whether the Government have considered other courses. At one time they did. In a Dáil debate on 26th April, 1960, the former Taoiseach said that the best situation possibly for us would be an association with the Common Market if Britain were also a member of it, on a basis which would satisfactorily take account of our economic circumstances. This attitude was reiterated in a Government White Paper of 30th June, 1961. However, the Government decided to abandon that attitude. They disregarded that attitude without making any sort of public announcement. We asked the former Taoiseach to consider the implications of associate membership but we did not get any information about that. Since then, for seven years, we have had exhortations to prepare ourselves for membership of the EEC. Again, over that period, there was no elaboration of this attitude of the Government towards the idea of association. Coming back to the White Paper of June, 1961, the Government said in it that they would endeavour to secure terms of membership or association which would satisfactorily take account of our economic circumstances.

Today the Taoiseach dealt only with full membership. He would have done a service to the House and to the nation, and certainly to Deputies, if he had listed all the disadvantages, if he thinks there are any, in association but he dismissed it as if it had never been mentioned in the White Paper or by the former Taoiseach, Deputy Lemass. As a matter of fact, the White Paper said: "It is not possible to state the specific implications of Ireland's membership of the Community as these would depend on the outcome of the detailed negotiations which would take place in the event of our applying for membership." Could the Taoiseach or some member of the Government, say in Finance, Agriculture or Industry and Commerce, not give something a little more specific about how our difficulties could be related to membership of the Common Market? It was probably impossible for the Taoiseach in an all-embracing speech to do this but in fairness to the Taoiseach, it should be done by some Government spokesman within the next two days.

Surely if the Government can point to the advantages of being a member along with Britain, they should also be in a position to spell out the penalties for not joining with Britain. If they cannot assess the difficulties in regard to not joining, then their argument for joining appears to be nullified. I do not believe that we have only one course of action just because the Government say so. It has been said in some asides that we would not have any share in the Council of Ministers, that we could not have representation on the Commission and that we would have to implement and accept decisions handed down to us. There is a little more to it than that. We have to have regard to the state of our economy and we should not be ashamed to say that it is still not as developed as we would like it to be, and let us not go further than that.

That is a big statement.

Did the Tánaiste want me to say that it is underdeveloped?

I said that it would not be a powerful statement to say that it is not developed.

As far as information is concerned, we were promised a White Paper six years ago. This was promised in paragraph 6 of the White Paper to which I have referred. Where is it? When will it be discussed? Again, in fairness to the Taoiseach, the speech he made today is a far better document than what were intended to be White Papers and which in fact were purely summaries or paraphrases of the Treaty of Rome. Again, this demonstrates to me that the Government in the past four or five years have not been concerned about membership of the EEC, possibly because de Gaulle said no, and they were very pleased that he said no. The Taoiseach says that we should not disclose our hand because it would weaken our position. Do they not know exactly the state of our agriculture and of our industry, of our social welfare system, our educational system, our fiscal policy and our taxation policy? We do not have to disclose anything to them because they know it already.

The British were not afraid to make known their details of entry, to some extent. The Taoiseach was good enough to have circulated the speech made by Mr. George Brown to the Western European Union in The Hague where he put in certain qualifications with regard to milk and butter but we are going in with our hands up rather than out. Denmark, too, stated their conditions in regard to the Agricultural Fund. They made this qualification but they said that they were going to negotiate on these matters. These may have small problems, the British as far as the Commonwealth countries are concerned and Denmark as far as the Agricultural Fund is concerned. Sweden suggested that it would have a stipulation to make if it decided to apply for membership. Therefore, I do not think the Taoiseach's argument is valid when he says that the Irish cannot disclose their hand because it would prejudice the discussions. I do not know what sort of discussions he had with the heads of Europe whom he visited recently but we are still waiting for this promised White Paper and all we got was the Taoiseach's speech which, as I said, is optimistic and too complacent.

It is fair to say that we suspect the Government's failure to promote and participate in a debate on the EEC possibly stems from lack of knowledge. The Taoiseach, quite rightly, has to be briefed when he goes abroad. He may be one of the prime negotiators and he certainly has to know his Treaty of Rome and the Irish economy. Similarly, the Minister for Finance—he may be "Mr. Europe"—has to have himself well briefed and know the Treaty of Rome, but do other members of the Government know about the implications of Ireland's entry to the EEC? Have any of them related their Departments to conditions in the EEC and what may be required of them, not this year or next year, but in the years to come, when it is hoped that not alone will there be a rise in incomes so far as salaries and wages are concerned but a fairly generous and even social welfare system? According to the Minister for Social Welfare last week, he was not too concerned about this and as far as rationalisation is concerned, he is not bothered.

I do not think it is sufficient for the Taoiseach to say: "Why not treat of the alternatives?" I suppose I could over a fair period, or if I had the advice of the economists in the Department of Finance and the experts in the Department of Industry and Commerce and those who know the agricultural industry inside out, but the Government's position is not only to convince the Dáil that we should go in a certain direction but also to show why we should not go in other directions and why we must join if Britain joins. I have not heard these arguments yet. It is true that 75 per cent of our trade is with Great Britain.. But is there no alternative? If there is not, let the Taoiseach tell us and show us there is not.

Is it possible we would be better off by association, with eventual membership? Is it possible and have the Government concerned themselves with the idea of full membership with long periods of delegation in specific areas where the economy is weak? Or is it, as would appear from the Taoiseach, that what we are concerned about only is full membership with no preconditions? We can go into this first league soccer game without having regard to any of our weaknesses. The Taoiseach refuses to disclose his hand. We want to go in as the equals of industrial Germany and agricultural France. Is it possible—this may not be attractive and we have not discussed it—that in the event of Britain not getting in, we may have a trade agreement with the EEC in accordance with one of their Articles? There are four, five, or six different courses we could take. They have not been offered to us at all, except the one in which we say that we want to go in as full members. "Please, Sir, we want to be good boys and we will do everything you ask of us."

We are concerned with two major things as far as membership of the EEC is concerned. First, we are concerned about the political nature of the EEC itself, which does not seem to be clearly appreciated by the Irish people. As I said, the impression seems to be that, when people talk about or comment on the EEC, they think in terms of tariffs being stripped and agriculture doing well. That is the extent of the knowledge of the majority of the Irish people. They believe it is a Common Market in which the barriers are down, in which we may not be able to sell more of our industrial goods, in which there may be a little unemployment but in which agriculture will do well. As the Taoiseach said, the objective of EEC is a Europe united economically and politically. We are inclined to think in terms of the person who believed that Common Market was groceries and not politics, as against Mr. Wilson's statement about its being politics and not groceries. This is something the Irish people have to appreciate and something on which they should be informed, before they, through their representatives, make this vital decision.

It may be a good thing that we should be integrated with Europe economically to the extent that it may reduce in the near future what appears to be our dependence on Great Britain, but in the interim, in doing that, we should be concerned to ensure that this process, this rigorous process, will not mean further damage to our economy and further depopulation of our country.

Again, we have to ask ourselves what are we giving away politically for the alleged economic advantages the Taoiseach spoke of. He talked about giving away a little piece of our sovereignty, as one does when giving away a cubic inch of something. In fact, we are giving away quite an amount. We are surrendering our political sovereignty by a common defence policy. Do the Irish people know this? Some of them know it, but is it appreciated by those who elect representatives and elect Governments? Do we know we are giving away the right to make economic and social policies that are going to have an effect on the Irish people, the majority of whom believe that within the Common Market, the Taoiseach, his Ministers and Deputies are going to make these economic and social decisions?

As the Taoiseach mentioned today, we are going to give away the right of the Irish Supreme Court to be the final arbiter and hand it over to this European court. It will be the right of the Council of Ministers to make all major decisions. I may be told that we will have a voice, but it will be a relatively small voice. When these people make decisions, it will not be out of any affection for the Irishman, his culture, religion or anything like that. They will not vote in favour of Ireland if Ireland needs a favourable decision. We are going to give to the Commission the right to make binding regulations. We ought to be clear on this as well. The Council of Ministers make the decisions on various aspects of social and economic policy, but the Commission can make regulations. It is just the same as giving any Minister here power under, say, a Planning Act to make regulations, because these regulations will be binding. If there is a policy in respect of agriculture, transport, energy, competition in trade, while the general policy may be specified and to some extent laid down, the Commission will administer that by regulations and these regulations will be binding. If anybody wants to object, they do not go to the Irish Supreme Court, but they have to go to this court in The Hague, or wherever it is. We are going to surrender all these rights for what are, as far as I know at present, alleged economic advantages.

I would like to pose this. Are the Irish people aware of the political commitment they are being asked to make? As far as I can, I am trying to stress what they are giving away. This should be done in a forthright fashion by members of the Government Party, particularly those on the Front Bench. Are we being required to abandon our traditional role of neutrality? Nobody seems to be able to answer that question. I remember about six years ago being brash enough to challenge a balloon of a speech hoisted by the Minister for Lands, Deputy Moran, when we suggested we would join NATO. The then Taoiseach, Deputy S. Lemass, was questioned in the Dáil about this. He skated around it and left nobody the wiser. I know the Taoiseach cannot hand out typed statements all the time, but he is alleged to have made some sort of statement at Rome Airport and at Dublin Airport. Certainly, I do not want to purport to quote him. Neutrality was mentioned and there was the possibility that we might join NATO. I challenge the Taoiseach that this is something that should be cleared up.

I shall clear it up here and now: I said no such thing.

Fair enough. When we talk now about a common defence policy, does it mean we have a commitment in times of conflict to abandon our neutrality? The Swedes have decided they will open negotiations to participate in EEC on some wide terms, with the stipulation that they will be allowed to pursue their role of neutrality. It seems to me, therefore, that there must be something in the Treaty of Rome that would suggest that, when one becomes a full member or a member to some degree, one must abandon one's neutrality in order to retain membership. The Swedes want to opt out at that stage. I should like to know about us. This should be clarified. Are we to act in accordance with our oft-declared policy, with the policy framed and supported by all Parties in this House when the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation was established away back in 1945, 1946 or 1947? We gave good reasons at that time for remaining neutral. If these reasons have changed, the Government should tell us. Maybe the Minister for External Affairs would tell us if he participates in this debate.

In any case, it is very difficult for us from press reports and conversations at airports, through television and radio, to know exactly what assurances the Taoiseach gave to the various countries he visited. Undying loyalty, participation in Europe, et cetera, et cetera—I do not know what all this was in aid of. Surely, all that would be required of us, if we are to interpret the Taoiseach's attitude as displayed today, is to say: “Look, let us in”? Why have we to give all these assurances about defence commitments and whether or not we will be neutral in the next conflict? I do not know what advantages these will be if General de Gaulle says: “No; Britain does not come in” and we do not go in. Are there any commitments at all?

Our second major concern is the alleged economic advantages. I should like to know again what they are. The Taoiseach referred to the various reports by the Committee on Industrial Organisation. The Industrial Reorganisation Branch of the Department of Industry and Commerce and the Department of Agriculture Survey Committee on Industrial Organisation, early in 1960, as many of us know, surveyed 26 of what were described as the larger industries. The Industrial Reorganisation Branch of the Department of Industry and Commerce made a survey of 14 smaller industries and the Department of Agriculture surveyed agricultural and allied base industries in an effort to discover how these industries would fare in face of free competition in the European Economic Community.

I should say that these industries represented 78 per cent of industrial employment, but if one were to think in terms of industry in the whole country, according to the surveys carried out by these three teams, with the adaptation measures for which financial aid was given, in seven years before full membership, we could lose overall 12,000 jobs. That means that if the exhortations of the Government and the various Ministers were accepted by all these industries they surveyed, we would lose 12,000 jobs and, without adaptation, without any effort by these people, we would lose up to 40,000 jobs.

The CIO Report suggests that in the event of our becoming a member of the EEC, the motor-car assembly industry would go, that shoe manufacturing would go, that the miscellaneous clothing industry would go, that cotton, linen and rayon industries would go, that leather industries would disappear, even with adaptation.

What we want to talk about here today is the type of person who is working in these industries. We want to know what his prospects are and how he will fare. Until we get reasonably satisfactory answers to these questions, we certainly could not go along with the motion in the name of the Taoiseach. Other industries to mention that would be suspect as far as continuance is concerned are hosiery, paper, oil and paints.

Somebody may tell me that I am creating a scare; somebody may tell me that I am being pessimistic. Somebody else may tell me that I have no faith in the country or, as I have said at times here, that Fianna Fáil speak for the Irish workers. These chaps are asking these questions. I know that in the motor-car assembly industry and in the other industries, clothing, leather and shoes, they are very concerned about it. We only ask that the Government be concerned and tell us if our fears are well-founded and, if so, what will be done about it?

I should like to ask—and I think this ought to be asked because it provides pretty substantial employment and also it is unique in that we have the raw material—what will happen in the case of processed foods. It was necessary to have them protected, to be, as they were, excluded under the terms of the Anglo-Irish Free Trade Agreement. Will we look for a similar concession in Europe? Will it be necessary, or do the Government believe that, while it is necessary to protect this industry against competition in Britain, it will not be necessary to protect it against competition from the Six now Members of the European Economic Community?

Have the adaptation measures mentioned by the Taoiseach and referred to by many Ministers for Industry and Commerce, including Deputy Dr. Hillery, been taken? What is the Government's assessment of change in the forecasts made by the Committee on Industrial Organisation, the IRB and the Department of Agriculture? Are these still valid? It is about time somebody told us if the figures I got from the last CIO Report, sent to me by some Department of State, are valid and is it a fact that either 12,000 or 40,000 people may lose heir jobs in the first seven years?

Of course, the rate of increase of jobs in the past three years indicates to me that adaptation has not been at all taken seriously. We are told—I do not know whether this is correct or not —that these grants are to cease in September. Surely, shame on the Irish industry who could adapt; shame on the Irish industry that has workers depending on it for employment in an area of free trade who would not bother their heads to avail of the moneys that are available from the Government in order to ensure that not alone would they and their industries survive but that their workers would survive also.

The Taoiseach was super-optimistic about the picture as far as employment is concerned because the economy, good or bad, can be reflected in the number of persons in employment and the number of persons out of employment. It is a sorry picture. Take the picture even since 1961. I am not going back to 1957, which seems to be the popular period because it was the time the inter-Party Government went out of office. Let us judge the Government as far as employment is concerned from 1961, when they first made application for membership of the European Economic Community. Of course, from 1961 to 1966, the number in nonagricultural employment was 38,000 —pretty good but not at all comparable with the forecast made in the Second Programme for Economic Expansion, the one that fell flat on its face, so much so that it is not even being revived; we are getting a Third Programme.

Compared with 1961, in 1966 there were 8,000 more unemployed than there were when we first made application for membership of this Community. There are 49,000 fewer persons employed in agriculture than there were when we first made application for membership of the EEC and the Taoiseach suggests in his speech that things are going well. The Taoiseach was a member of the Government at that time who introduced what was called the Second Programme for Economic Expansion that was to get us an extra 7,800 jobs per year. If we are to lose, as is suggested, between 12,000 and 40,000, say, an average of 25,000, jobs on entry to the EEC, it could take up to ten years to maintain our current level of nonagricultural employment.

To offset the loss of jobs, what do the Government expect? There is a very brief paragraph in which the Taoiseach referred to it to some degree, about seven lines which I cannot find now. Is it suggested that if we become a member of the European Economic Community, in an effort to get into Europe through the backdoor of Ireland, there would be established industries financed by the United States of America or, say, Japan or some other country that has not now free access to the European Economic Community or is it possible that, as the Taoiseach mentioned, there will be no danger of German workers coming here for work, or of the Germans establishing industries over here, we being part of the Community? In any case, I think the Taoiseach should elaborate on his reference to further industrial development.

I think, therefore, that as far as industry is concerned, we should ensure that our system of grants—the Taoiseach need not tell Mr. Halstein or Mr. Mansholt that he is saying this; he can tell them that we in the Labour Party say it—and this would be one of our terms in the negotiations—and other facilities would be maintained in accordance with, as they can be, Article 92 of the Treaty of Rome. There will be many fears expressed as to whether or not we could keep on grants from the IDA and An Foras Tionscal. It seems that we can but would have to negotiate for this under Article 98 of the Treaty of Rome.

In regard to industry, I am sure the Taoiseach and the team with him will insist that we should be assisted from the European Investment Bank for the establishment of industry, because we need it badly. Again, as has been mentioned by the Taoiseach, will there be proper regulations as far as dumping is concerned? There is a provision in the Treaty against dumping, but for a small country like ours a relatively small amount of dumping could mean disaster before action would be taken by those who will be charged to do it either in the Commission or in some organisation in the EEC.

What will be the time for transition for Irish industry, the period in which we shall have to strip ourselves of this protection? In accordance with the Treaty of Rome, this protection ends for the existing member countries on 1st July, 1968. Again, we might negotiate, and what are we going to look for? Under the Anglo-Irish Free Trade Agreement with Britain, we got ten years. I do not know whether ten years will be sufficient in our case, but I would say we should try to ensure that we get at least ten years to prepare Irish industry for this competition. I am asking this in regard to industry not for next year or the year after but for five years, not 15 years, because our workers might starve or have to emigrate in between: by our entry into EEC, what new jobs will be gained; what jobs will be lost, if any? Will the industrial inducements be maintained? Will we negotiate the period for the removal of tariffs? We have got to know that there will be many more jobs in industry, because I do not think any of us anticipate there will be more jobs in agriculture.

The bright spot as far as most people are concerned seems to be agriculture. Again, let me say for the umpteenth time, I am not an expert on agriculture, but I wonder is the Taoiseach sticking his neck out, in view of the experience of the Minister for Finance, the former Minister for Agriculture, Deputy Haughey, as far as cattle and beef are concerned, when he says that it would mean an extra £30 million per year, and in dairy products, an extra £10 million. We all hope this is so. The common agricultural policy, like that for industry, will operate from 1st July, 1968, and by that date, as far as we are informed, 90 per cent of agricultural products will be covered by regulation. The aim—and the very laudable aim— of the EEC is to raise the standard of living and the income of the small farmers. If our admission to membership of the EEC will do that for our small farmers, we shall certainly applaud that advantage.

In regard to certain commodities to which the Taoiseach made reference, we understand there is a reasonable chance that the Irish farmers will get better prices than they have been getting, and there seems to be the prospect of a stronger guarantee for the sale of practically all the products the Irish dairy farmer produces. Under the European Guarantee and Guidance Fund, there will be financial safeguards to ensure that there will be these fixed prices under the fund which I have mentioned, a fund which will be contributed to by the member countries, and a fund which will be contributed to from levies on imports from those outside the EEC, whether it be six, eight or ten countries. We do not know whether the Taoiseach is in a position to state what we might have to contribute to that in the first year or the first five years. As I said, we are not aware of what we shall put in or of what we shall get out of it; apart from the fixing of prices, this fund, the European Guarantee and Guidance Fund, known, I am told, as FEOGA, can also be employed to do other things which, we presume, would benefit our small farmers. Again, we do not know what our commitments are in this respect. The Minister for Finance, I think, said our total commitments to EEC would be from £3 million to £3½ million per annum. I do not know whether that is an exact quote—I did not see the statement in any of the newspapers—but this was said to me; whether he means £30 million, I do not know.

The Taoiseach has told us that our agricultural subsidies will go with membership of the EEC, that these will be no longer possible, that this will mean a saving for the Exchequer and, I hope, incidentally a saving for the Irish taxpayer. Again, in all of this, while we are concerned with farm incomes and with agricultural exports, we are primarily concerned with people. We should like to know what, in the view of the Government, are the types of agricultural production that will benefit and what types of agricultural production will suffer. We should also like to know, if I may refer to a type of industry, what will happen to the fertiliser industry? Will there be protection for it or will the farmers be allowed to import fertiliser freely and at a cheaper rate than they are getting it at the present time?

It appears from what the Taoiseach says that there is little future for tillage. While the future for tillage looks black, it looks more than attractive for cattle raising. It is obvious that there will be a more rapid depopulation of the rural areas, and this will create a problem in the urban areas, the towns and cities, unless, unfortunately, these people have to have recourse to Britain.

We have no information in regard to other agricultural matters or in regard to other sectors, as far as this Treaty is concerned. We have not been told very much about regional development and planning. We have been told little, if anything, about the changes that will be required in the legal system related, say, to commercial law. We are informed—perhaps some member of the Government will be able to tell us this—that there may be big changes in regard to fiscal policy. The Taoiseach has not treated of it at great length: maybe the Minister for Finance will do that. In regard to the harmonisation of taxes, there was mention of a value added tax. Will this be adopted, and what other changes will there be? Will there be, as there appears to be in the EEC countries, an emphasis, and a stated emphasis, on indirect taxation as against direct taxation? We might have a little to gain if there were to be harmonisation or a levelling off in that respect, because the emphasis in this country is on indirect taxation rather than on direct taxation, to a greater degree than we would like.

I mentioned the social welfare code which I believe, despite what the Taoiseach and the Minister for Social Welfare may say, is below the EEC level. I also mentioned the movement of capital and the purchase of Irish land. Under the free movement of capital is it possible for a Belgian or a German to come in here and freely buy the land of Ireland? There should be safeguards.

All these problems must be made known and resolved. Again let me say that it is not because we want to be unreasonable that we are saying these things; it is not because we happen to be sitting in these benches; we want to know for the people who sent us here, for those people who are concerned about membership of the EEC. I would suggest, therefore, that in any negotiations the Taoiseach would press for a continuance of industrial grants and incentives, and these can be obtained under Article 92 of the Treaty. We should negotiate also for at least ten years as a transition period. We should get firm guarantees against dumping, because we would be very vulnerable in that respect. We should ask for immediate access to FEOGA for the purpose of making Irish farms economic. This Agricultural Fund was to be used to try to do what the Land Commission have been trying to do for a long time, make many of our farmholdings, which are low very small, economic, viable and efficient. We should also look for, and should not be ashamed to do so, some sort of assurance that we should get fairly large assistance from the European Investment Bank so as to prevent mass unemployment by establishing industry here.

I do not want to keep the House too long. I have posed questions which I had thought might be answered by the Taoiseach in his speech. I do not accept that he cannot answer them or that he cannot answer any questions we ask him. I do not accept that anything he may tell us would be an embarrassment to his team of negotiators. We are seeking information which we think we should have. We are asking: why full membership? What will be the effect on industry? What will be the effect on Irish agriculture, on our import and export trade, and particularly what are the political implications? And are we committed to abandoning our policy of neutrality? What information has he about fiscal policy and investment in Ireland? Up to today—and I concede the Taoiseach gave a little more than was given by his predecessors in recent years—we have got little or no information on these vital areas of national interest, and until the fullest information is available, the Labour Party could not and would not give a blank cheque to a Fianna Fáil Government to lead us into Europe in the fashion they propose and without seeking to have the issue put before the Dáil and the people. High-sounding promises and optimistic speeches are not sufficient. We want the facts because we still do not know whether EEC is going to be a Garden of Eden or a Chamber of Horrors.

I formally second the amendment.

The amendment in my name reads:

To add at the end of the motion:—

"but in the light of the obligations already imposed on our economy by the Anglo-Irish Free Trade Area Agreement and the possibility of EEC membership regrets the failure of the Government to take more realistic preparatory steps both at home and abroad."

Despite the length of the Taoiseach's speech this afternoon, I do not think much information of knowledge has been added to the facts already before the House. His speech was merely a repetition of information which is already available in different White Papers published by the Government or which is contained in the Rome Treaty itself with a few additions in respect of his recent visits to certain European Governments.

It is true that the Government have applied for membership of EEC. That application was originally made five or six years ago but that is about as far as it has gone. In the five years since our application was first made, the Government have made little or no effort to get across to the people generally the real meaning of their action and the implications involved in membership of EEC which would affect every sphere of our national life. There must be a strong suspicion that this is because the Government did not have any real understanding of what is happening and that they simply followed the herd and hoped for the best, moving from one short-term gimmick to another in the hope that something would turn up, which is the usual policy substitute of Fianna Fáil Government.

It is particularly unfortunate in relation to EEC because our success as members of the European Community will depend very largely on the understanding and enthusiasm of the people generally. In order that that understanding and enthusiasm will develop, the Government must give a very clear and consistent lead to public opinion. This it has largely failed to do and the result is that although five years have elapsed since we applied for membership, very few people in the country yet have any clear idea of what it is that we are applying for and what would be expected from the country and what challenges we would have to face. The people may be pardoned if that is the general attitude because the Government seems to have little or no conception of the radical changes which will be necessary in our attitudes and in the way we run ourselves in Government, in industry, in agriculture, in social policy, in law, in fiscal policy, in foreign affairs, in education and in many other aspects of our national life.

Judging by recent reports and statements, by interviews given by the Taoiseach, many citizens might be pardoned if they were inclined to accept that all that was necessary was for the Taoiseach and some Minister, accompanied by officials, to go to the European capitals and shake hands with the heads of Government there and then assure Radio Telefís Éireann that everything was well. That, undoubtedly, has its place and we have consistently urged and argued that this action and initiative should have been taken long ago and should not have to wait until after a debate was initiated by Fine Gael Senators in the Seanad about 12 months ago. But there is far more difficult work which should be and must be undertaken before this country can become a member of EEC and this self-satisfied approach that has been evident in recent Government statements has not taken account of or adverted to the provisions of Article 237 of the Rome Treaty, the Article dealing with the power of the veto, the Article which up to now has been the crux of increased membership of EEC. However, we can discuss that more fully at a later stage.

It is generally recognised, and this has been emphasised by the Taoiseach in his speech, that EEC is of tremendous importance to the future of Irish agriculture. He was a little more circumspect than the Minister for Finance when he was Minister for Agriculture. At least the Taoiseach talked in terms of millions. Millions to an individual farmer do not mean anything; he only reads about them in the newspapers and hears of them on television. At least this is a change from the unfulfilled promise that cattle would make £10 a head more as a result of signing the Trade Agreement with Britain. We will have to go into that in greater detail but there is one vital aspect of our approach from the point of view of agriculture and membership of the EEC, that is, the failure of the Government to give an effective and convincing lead to the country that they are preparing as a matter of urgency for the competition and for the serious questions which will arise for Irish farmers in the event of this country becoming a member of the EEC. We have stated in our amendment that the Government have failed to take realistic, preparatory steps either at home or abroad, and I want to direct the attention of the Dáil and the country to what has been the pattern over the past six or nine months.

Instead of the farming community being geared to face the competition, instead of having effective consultation with farming organisations, there has been a continuance of a dispute between the Government and a particular farming organisation. Instead of getting the co-operation of the farming interests, we have had the time of the Dáil taken up with discussing a measure which is neither necessary nor urgent; nor can it be said, even by its most ardent advocate or by an impartial onlooker, that it will contribute one whit to make the farmers either more efficient or more competitive. But what steps have the Government taken to consult with the farming community? The Taoiseach said that the NAC had been set up and that the Minister and the Government were consulting with it. I wonder do the people realise what the NAC is. First of all, there was a delay of years in setting up any form of national agricultural council and when it was set up, can anyone suggest that it is anything more than a Fianna Fáil satellite?

Hear, hear.

It is unrepresentative; it is hand-picked; and at least one member is a secretary of a Fianna Fáil cumann. Anyone who examines the credentials of the members will accept that there is an overwhelming majority on that council who have strong Fianna Fáil leanings. Leaving that out of it, assuming even that it was elected by the organisations which it is supposed to represent and that it represented all the agricultural or the major agricultural organisations in the community, what is the position of an organisation in which the Minister, to whom it is supposed to make recommendations, is himself the Chairman? Most of us are familiar with the procedure which operates by which representative organisations make representations to individual Ministers or to the Government. We are familiar with the position in which Deputies and Senators and public representatives make representations to Ministers and to the Government. Most of us who have been in Government know that from time to time individual Ministers make representations to their colleagues about particular questions, either of policy or matters of administration affecting their own Department or of individual cases, but this is the first occasion I know of in which a Minister has started to make representations to himself. Is it not crazy? That is the position under the present National Agricultural Council.

What steps have been taken in other spheres? What study has been given to the problems which will face industry? There has been a great deal of talk about the need for industry to adapt itself, the need for industrialists to be more competitive, the need for industry and trade unions to abandon outmoded practices and outmoded systems—all the familiar platitudes have been spoken over the years by Fianna Fáil Ministers at chambers of commerce and at other gatherings, all the platitudes that can be exhausted to describe either industries or trade unions and to exhort them to take action to remedy the problem. In fact, it is followed today in the Taoiseach's speech that as long as money is being spent, provided it is public money, Fianna Fáil do not mind how it is spent or what return is got from it.

We have in the Taoiseach's speech the statement that:

Up to 31st March, 1967, some 800 applications for adaptation grants totalling some £14 million, had been approved by An Foras Tionscal. These applications involved investment plans of the order of £63 million. The Department of Industry and Commerce is continuing its work of encouraging firms to formulate adaptation and re-organisation plans.

What was the finding of the CIO report in this matter? The CIO investigated it in detail as far back as 1964 when it pointed out that 17 of the 22 industries which it surveyed anticipated that there would be a serious problem of dumping in their industry under free trade and this report called for early action in bringing in anti-dumping legislation to deal with the threat. Since then industry spokesmen have consistently emphasised the urgency of this problem. Eighteen months ago a trade agreement with Britain was signed. We pointed out at that time the urgency of the problem and the difficulties that would arise if effective anti-dumping measures were not taken.

Quite recently the Evening Press featured a major threat from dumping to one of our most important industries. It is clear that as the situation stands at present, little or nothing is being done by the Government, except the introduction on the Order Paper last week of the title of a Bill to deal with it. How can that be described as a serious preparation? How can the Government seriously urge industrialists and trade unions and other sections of the community to take effective action when they themselves have been so dilatory in taking action which was recommended at the time and which it was agreed was essential in order to deal with this problem?

The CIO report that adverted to this at the time was followed by an NIEC comment published in March of this year, over two years after the last report, in fact almost two years and six months from the time the matter was first adverted to by the CIO. This NIEC report said:

The synthesis of 22 CIO reports further pointed out that: Seventeen of the 22 industries were particularly concerned about dumping in the home market (cotton, paper, fertilisers, shirts, miscellaneous clothing, gowns, chocolate, steel, knitwear, chemicals, pottery, electrical equipment, readymade clothing, paper products, men's outerwear, furniture, the heavy leather sector of leather). The small size of Irish industry, and therefore of firms within it, makes it very vulnerable to dumping.... On this matter considerable vigilance and speedy action by the Government would seem the only way of mitigating the severity of the problem.

That CIO report was made at the beginning of 1965 and this report published on 10th March of this year said:

It is moreover a matter of urgency that effective anti-dumping legislation be introduced now that we are embarked on the progression to freer trade with the UK.

More than two years have elapsed and a further period of three or four months elapses before we even get a Long Title. Can anyone be blamed for getting the impression that is widespread in the country that the Government were not serious about this, that we were spending time discussing a Livestock Marts Bill that is of no relevance or significance and that we had not even introduced until last week, and that under pressure from trade unions, from industry and from Deputies the Long Title or Short Title of a Bill to deal with this problem? How is it expected that industry or that trade unions or that agricultural organisations or their combined efforts can be regarded or expected to take the problem seriously if the Government have failed to implement what was a recommendation made in the CIO Report on which were representatives of interested trade unions, interested industries and representatives of the Government itself?

Despite a great deal of talk by the Government and despite the very large sums of money spent on industrial adaptation and re-organisation, there still is a widespread uneasiness about many sectors of industry in respect of the prospects which will face them under free trade. If spending money is merely the criterion and if the examinations and evidence given in respect of the reports which were published, supplemented, I may say, by very stringent comments from the Public Accounts Committee last week and still further by an extraordinary example of public expenditure in regard to a question here today, then a great deal of the money spent on adaptation and re-organisation has been wasted or not spent either effectively or efficiently.

There is involved in this a far wider question. It is the question of whether a policy of high protection having been adopted and implemented for so many years under which many Irish industries were either established or expanded, they now have to face a situation in which the climate is far different, a climate where free trade operates. A high protection policy aims at manufacturing as many different things as possible within the country with a view to achieving some form of economic self-sufficiency though in many cases the industries may not be competitive or economic in international terms, a high protective policy which means tariff and quota was used to support that policy. The kind of industrial structure which develops under a policy of high protection aimed at self-sufficiency is the very opposite to that which is suitable for competition in international free trading conditions. For a small country particularly—and this was one of the aspects adverted to in the CIO reports and was subsequently the subject of comment not merely in the NIEC report but in other NIEC reports—the kind of industrial structure which develops under a policy of high protection aimed at self-sufficiency is the very opposite to that which is suitable for competition in free trading conditions.

Success in free trade, for a small country especially, can only come from concentrating on those specialised manufacturing activities in which the circumstances of the country make it highly or genuinely competitive. This is the fundamental fact which has to be grasped by Irish industry in adapting itself to free trade. It is a fact which up to the present the Fianna Fáil Government have shown little signs of having grasped. Indeed, it has been so long committed in a doctrinaire way to the policy of high protection that it could not be expected to repudiate or understand in full the implementation of a rapid or dramatic change of the type involved in free trading conditions.

It must, indeed, be obvious to anybody who thinks objectively about it that the Irish industrial structure developed under high protection for a self-sufficiency policy cannot simply be adapted to precisely the opposite conditions simply by a programme of patching and mending here and there. Yet that seems to be precisely what the Government's adaptation programme seems to have amounted to. The programme has been carried on, as I said, by the expenditure or the commitment of very large sums of money dispersed throughout the community and throughout industry without any clear assessment of what the industries are which are capable of surviving, what industries can grow profitably in free trade with the adaptation programme so geared, conducted and organised as to channel the resources into those. On the contrary, Government assistance seems to have been spread indiscriminately over the whole wide range of Irish industry. Even within industry itself there does not seem to have been any real attempt to tie Government assistance and inducement to major rationalisation moves between individual firms or to apply realistic selectivity so as to concentrate the resources on those concerns which have a real chance of survival.

The time has arrived when we should get away from looking on the Government programme as a massive dole operation geared to help out the incompetent, the weak or run down concerns. The hard facts of free trade which must be faced realistically are that only the strongest have any chance of surviving. That means that however great the local political pressures, money spent in propping up the weak is money down the drain. A really forward programme of adaptation must concentrate on building up the strongest and the way to deal with those concerns which have no reasonable chance of survival is not to waste the people's precious and limited resources. It is they who advanced the money for the adaptation grants. Those resources should not be wasted in prolonging the life of those weaker industries. The necessary action should be taken well in advance. The workers in those industries should be consulted and smoothly deployed to those sectors which are the strongest and which will survive.

It is clear from the very large number of adaptation grants given that no such policy is being followed. The result is that we are going into free trade with an industrial structure not very different from that which we had under protection. The likely consequences of that situation are obvious. It is quite clear that under the adaptation programme as it is operated, there may well be many cases in which large sums of money have been spent on re-equipping enterprises which by their nature cannot succeed in free trade because the scale on which they are designed is too small or competition from highly efficient long-established modern factories and large industrial units in Europe may make competition unprofitable and the prospect of survival almost nil or their geographical location or access to raw materials is less favourable than it is for their competitors. What we really lack at this stage is any clear picture from the Government of what they see the shape of Irish industry in European Free Trade conditions will be, which activities have the best chance of succeeding and in which parts of the country can these be most favourably located.

The decision to segregate and select individual industries is bound to be difficult. It is bound to raise unpopular political questions, unpopular geographical questions, problems not merely for the industrialists but far greater problems for the workers who possibly may have no alternative employment in the areas, who may be faced with the problem of uprooting themselves and their families, of transferring themselves from localities where they were reared and where they lived.

They are the problems which are inherent in membership of the Common Market, problems which we can no longer refuse to accept as pressing problems, as urgent problems, as problems on whose solution we have received no indication or even the glimmer of an indication from the Government as to what action or decisions will be taken. On the question of industrial activities being located most favourably, this was adverted to in the Grey Book published over the signature of the Secretary of the Department of Finance and it had stringent comments to make eight years ago. Undoubtedly it is easier for the Department of Finance or for civil servants who are not faced with political questions to comment on the effectiveness or usefulness of grants such as those given to the underdeveloped areas. That was a comment made eight years ago, before there was any move to get us into the Common Market.

Since then we have initiated our application for membership but no action has been taken to deal with that problem or to come to grips with the real political and economic questions involved in membership of the Common Market. It is true that kind of realism may not be politically possible in the short term but the Government have a grave responsibility to put these facts realistically before the people and to secure public support for policies which in the long run will protect employment and allow it to expand on a sound basis. It may be unpopular in the short term but postponing it is likely to have disastrous consequences for the economy in the long term.

In that connection it is obvious that the Government have postponed or deferred a realistic assessment of the results of the Second Programme. An important part of our present export trade depends on importing raw materials from low-cost sources and re-exporting goods made from them to Britain or other countries. This will not be possible when the EEC external tariff is applied to imports. That is only one thing but it is typical of the kind of major re-adjustment of our industrial efforts which will be necessary when we join. It is no use taking the naïve view, as the Government have taken so often, that because in present conditions an industry exports its goods to a certain area, this means it will be competitive in free trade. At present much of our export trade is possible only because the firms who do it are in many cases protected on the home market. In many cases if they had to do all their business at prices received from their exports, they would have been out of business long ago.

One of the major factors involved in building up our exports was the export tax relief given in 1956 by a Fine Gael Minister for Finance. In the circumstances of that time and in the years immediately following, that scheme was effective in promoting exports because it allowed firms basically geared to the home market to increase their production and export the increase, even though the only profit they had from it was a greater spread of overheads and relief from part of the taxation they would have been paying on home market profits.

Clearly, in free trade, that kind of scheme will have no meaning. As I understand the arrangements under the Rome Treaty when it becomes effective, leaving aside any transitional period, that sort of assistance will not be permitted. Indeed, under the new Trade Agreement with Britain, we are committed to abolishing it and it will not be allowed under EEC rules. What plan have the Government for replacing it? If something which up to now has been a major factor in extending our export trade is withdrawn, unless there are some compensatory circumstances, the logical conclusion is that a great deal of that trade will fall back. The question of incentives, the need to re-adjust them, is not confined to the export field.

The whole approach to industrial development requires and must have a completely new look. That should already have been done but there has been extraordinary dilatoriness on the part of the Government, of individual Departments and Ministers. It is a task which requires to be undertaken urgently. It is wrong to continue spending vast sums of money on an industrial development programme which was not the right kind of programme for the new conditions we shall face in the EEC.

We already have specific examples. They are ones which have come to the surface and they may be only the tip of the iceberg. There are the instances of Galway Textiles and of Potez. There are many others but these are enough to be going on with. What is the future of the other concerns in which the State has commitments? The Taoiseach, in an off-hand manner, spoke of Irish Steel Holdings. What problems will face most other concerns subsidised by massive injections of State funds, of taxpayers' moneys or public subscriptions? What will the position of those concerns be and, above all, what will be the position of the smaller concerns, the home industrial concerns, the domestic or family concerns largely family-operated and which make up the bulk of our industrial pattern? Has any examination been made of the situation that will likely occur in free trade conditions for these enterprises?

Recently the EEC Commission published a comprehensive report on the position of small and medium-sized firms in the EEC. It comprised four main lines of action. The first was a concentration on production mechanism; the second were common measures to adapt small and medium-sized firms to keener competition; the third was improved management training; and the fourth was aid in financing.

I should like to know has any comparable study been made here. We need here urgently a realistic examination of the prospects and a clear statement of Government policy. It is well to remember that in the EEC there will be no covering up, no hidden subsidies, no system whereby industries can be maintained by voting public money for the purpose of keeping them going for political or other reasons. The time will then be past when an Irish Government who failed to work on soundly conceived policies will be able to go on covering up their mistakes by drawing subsidies from the public purse.

Free Trade means open competition. That means that Government-aided and Government-sponsored operations will have no special immunity from the consequences of being either inefficient or uncompetitive. If they cannot carry on without subsidies, their fate will be no different from that of a privatelyowned concern which cannot make money. They will go out of business. That is a fact which does not seem to have sunk in, and does not seem to be understood, as yet. Any State-owned manufacturing concern which is not at the moment showing a profit, or the prospects of a profit, which could not be regarded as healthy, were it a private concern, must be examined extremely closely, because its chances of survival in free trade must be very slim indeed.

Profitability is the only standard by which a State concern can be assessed in the future. It is right that great concern should be expressed at the decision of the Government not to publish a mid-term review of the Second Programme.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

There can be only one reason for that, and it is obvious. In his Budget Statement in April, the Minister for Finance said:

The preparatory work on the review of the Second Programme is now nearing completion and will shortly be the subject of consultation with the NIEC. Realism must, of course, be the keynote of this review.

Now we are told in the Taoiseach's statement that it is not going to be published, that there is not going to be any review. He said:

The lessons of our experience are clear and confirm once more the general validity of the conditions of our economic progress stressed in the Second Programme.

We do not know what that means because there has been no progress in the Second Programme. The only target that has been reached, and exceeded, is the target for Ministers for Finance and Fianna Fáil Governments putting both their hands into the taxpayers' pockets and taking more out of their pockets every day. That is the only target that has been exceeded.

In respect of employment, we have 150,000 fewer people at work than we had when this Government took office ten years ago. In respect of housing, industry, agriculture, education, in respect of every single heading, they have failed to achieve the target. There are two exceptions. I believe the cost of living has even outstripped anticipation in the Second Programme and is still rising, and in respect of money taken from the people, more has been taken than was originally forecast in the Second Programme.

We must read this carefully. Obviously it is carefully put:

The lessons of our experience are clear and confirm once more the general validity of the conditions of our economic progress stressed in the Second Programme.

"... the conditions of our economic progress stressed in the Second Programme." Then there is mention of the progress that was made and the Taoiseach goes on:

In these circumstances, the Government have decided that the best course is to proceed as follows:

First, to complete the review of progress under the Second Programme, supplementing it by reference to the re-assessment of industrial preparations for free trade now proceeding and linking it with the 1967 review of both industrial and general economic conditions. All this will be done in consultation with the NIEC.

I should like to know the NIEC reaction to this. They were consulted. What were their views? Did the NIEC agree to postpone the review? Is it not obvious that if that programme is to have any validity, any sense or any meaning—remember we publish white papers and booklets each year and we have now not merely a review of what happened the previous year but forecasts for next year—all this had to be postponed or abandoned—the conclusion is obvious—because the results show that the Second Programme has been a dismal failure. That is the kind of unrealistic approach the Government have to the gravity of this problem. It is sweeping the whole matter under the carpet.

Some concern has been expressed and, I think, even some anxiety by some individuals about the fact that the NIEC labours under this difficulty, that the Secretary of the Department of Finance is also Chairman of the NIEC. Whatever decisions on policy are taken are supposed to be taken by the Minister for Finance. The Secretary of the Department reports to him as Secretary. We now have the absurd situation in which the Second Programme review is not to take place, although it was to take place in the middle of this year and, according to the Minister for Finance, realism was to be the keynote of that review. Now we will not get the review. Embarrassing as it may be that the Chairman of the NIEC is a civil servant, and a very distinguished one, that is not as bad as the crazy situation in which the NAC is presided over by the Minister for Agriculture, who makes representations to himself. That is the craziest arrangement ever.

Nobody can suggest that either in respect of industry or in respect of agriculture steps have been taken by the Government or any lead given to the nation with regard to the problems which will face this country in the event of its becoming a member of the EEC. Not merely was this adverted to, as I said earlier, in the CIO report but in the Final Report of the Committee on Industrial Organisation, it is stated clearly:

The small size of the Irish market renders Irish industry particularly vulnerable to dumping from highly industrialised countries in freer trading conditions and to the unloading of surplus stocks of goods which are out of fashion, of bankrupt stocks, etc. The problem will become progressively more acute as protection is dismantled and Irish industry is in process of adapting itself to conditions of greater competition in home and export markets. Unless preventive measures can be found, the repercussions in this critical period might well negative the adaptation measures taken by Irish industry. The Irish market is so small that the output of a relatively short production run by a large firm would be sufficient to saturate it, with a consequent disruption of production and employment here.

That comment was made on 29th January, 1965. On 10th March, 1967, that is, earlier this year, the NIEC commented adversely on the fact that up to then legislation to deal with this problem had not been introduced. What did the CIO say? They said that, on this matter, considerable vigilance and speedy action by the Government would seem to be the only way of mitigating the severity of the problem.

We have just spent weeks and hours here discussing an irrelevant and vindictive Marts Bill. So far, we have got only the Title of the anti-dumping legislation. There is no evidence of any action being taken. There is no evidence that the Government are at all concerned or have taken the speedy action suggested. Neither have they shown the vigilance that was regarded as essential 2½ years ago. In the light of that, is it not obvious that not merely have the Government taken no steps at home but they have taken no steps abroad to prepare this country for free trade? It is obviously absurd for the Government to be preaching at everybody else to take measures to prepare for free trade when the Government themselves have waited until now to get into an area in which action is so vital. This kind of neglect to do their share of adapting must inevitably lead to widespread cynicism in other sectors as to how serious the Government are in relation to adaptation. If the Government set such a bad example, how can they complain that others are not responding, as they would wish, to these exhortations?

Industrialists, and others, who have been criticised by Fianna Fáil Ministers for their failure to be energetic in making preparation, and trade unionists also have been criticised for operating outmoded practices, can all say that, so far as they are concerned, their preparations for free trade are as good as the Government's and they are entitled to say to any Minister and to the Government collectively: "Practise what you preach".

The time has passed for endless platitudes from Government spokesmen. What is needed now is action. That action may involve difficulty and unpopular decisions. Putting them off, like postponing the decision to give to the country the results of the review of the Second Programme, will not solve anything. Imagine a situation in which a man, finding himself in financial difficulty and unable to meet his commitments this year, plans to spend more money next year. The only difference is that the Government are spending not their own money but the people's money; not alone are they spending it but they are wasting it extravagantly, recklessly and inefficiently. If the Government are really committed to membership, and if the country is to be committed to membership of the EEC, we must act now. A great deal of valuable time and resources have already been lost. The sooner steps are taken to make up for that lost ground and to try to repair whatever damage has been done the better it will be.

That time is now. We have, indeed, grave problems in agriculture as well as in industry. There is a sort of easy assumption—it was confirmed to some extent by the Taoiseach's speech here today—that on certain agricultural matters prices should tend to be an improvement on existing prices. I think we are bound to take with a great deal of reserve Government promises in respect of prices. As I said earlier, the only difference between the Taoiseach and the Minister for Agriculture was that the latter promised £10 more per beast while the Taoiseach confined himself to £30 million in respect of the country as a whole. Has any detailed study been made of what the effect of the EEC agricultural policy will be on Irish farming? The regulations for controlling the EEC market in the main agricultural commodities are of very considerable interest to us, and not merely the marketing arrangements but the price levels to be maintained for those commodities which have already been agreed upon.

It must, for example, be clear that the application of a common target price throughout the Community of between 3/3d and 3/5½ a gallon for milk must radically affect the economics of dairy production and dairy products in this country. Similarly, a common guide price of approximately 240/- per cwt. for beef could radically change that section of our industry. On the other hand, the prices for tillage crops, such as sugar beet and cereals, are much closer to our own present levels. Tillage statistics in this country in recent years show a very serious decline, with one or two exceptions. If that trend is slightly assisted by this year's pattern, that is due entirely, I believe, to the catastrophic drop in cattle and sheep prices and to the heavy capital losses farmers have sustained on the change-over by many farmers to tillage, and possibly also in respect of wheat and barley because of the guaranteed price available, but it is a transition and a change made not from choice but because of the effect of the prices in respect of cattle and sheep.

It is obvious that, if the two prices I mention operate, there is a possibility of a very large switch-over from one line of production to another. If the economics of the EEC price structure make such a switch desirable or, indeed, inevitable, then the sooner we get ready for that switch the better. It would be clearly absurd for this country to go on operating a policy of encouraging farmers to invest in machinery for the production of sugar beet if, when we join the EEC, we find the production of sugar beet is going to be uneconomic in Irish conditions. The same applies to other cereal crops.

In present conditions in agriculture, very heavy investment is now required to produce these crops profitably. There is no use encouraging farmers to go on putting their money into the things I have mentioned if, in fact, they are going to make their money out of either cattle or milk. These are two matters on which clear guidance is necessary and urgently required from the Minister for Agriculture. It is not reasonable to expect farmers to make wise long-term plans for the development of their farms if they have not at their disposal this kind of vital information on the basis of which not merely their economic but their whole social, personal and family commitments must be planned.

We need information, too, about many other matters other than the actual prices obtaining in the EEC range. What marketing arrangements will be most suitable to enable us to exploit the new conditions effectively? It is likely, for example, that the EEC beef policy will tend to eliminate the live cattle trade to Britain and the Continent. That being so, we obviously are going to have to market a vastly increased quantity of beef. Have we got the facilities to do that? Have the Government any plans to develop these facilities? Here is an area, and this follows from what I said earlier, in which the Government could have been considering the possibility of market opportunities, such as those suggested by Fine Gael, and could have been doing invaluable work instead of wasting Ministers' time and the farmers' time in disputes between one farmers' organisation and the Government or pitting one organisation against the other.

All this is of vital concern to the Irish farmers. It is of vital concern to those who live and work and have to rear their families in Ireland. It transcends in importance individual Ministers and individual farming organisations. If there is any lesson to be learned from the Anglo-Irish Free Trade Agreement, it is simply that the signing of agreements with other countries does not of itself ensure profitable outlets for either beef or anything else. This is something Fianna Fáil Ministers have so far failed to grasp. Marketing in itself involves a high degree of organisation, advanced planning and specialised skill. Cattle producers have learned a bitter lesson in the past year and a half. It seems the Government have not yet learned and the lesson may well be repeated in the coming six months. Unless plans are carefully laid before we join the EEC, we may have a major struggle trying to make up for lost ground, a major struggle in the one industry and the one sector of our economy which up to the present has virtually carried the rest of the community on its back. I refer to the cattle trade and all that it means to farmers, big and small, throughout the country. Had the Minister for Agriculture been doing his job and had the Government been concerned with the real economic and social problems involved, they would have had every farming organisation, every organisation representing farmers' interests, in to discuss the problem with them, instead of carrying on a vendetta, completely out of place in modern conditions and completely alien to the traditions and character of the Irish people.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

There are other aspects of marketing questions which need careful attention. Capital movements—this problem has been adverted to—so far as this country is concerned have been up to the present in the main from Britain to here or, in some degree, from here to Britain; but there is a danger that foreign firms may get into controlling positions in the marketing of our produce, including dairy produce and other foodstuffs. It is by no means certain that loss of control of our own processing and marketing will, in the long run, be to our advantage. It has recently been calculated that already about 50 per cent of the European food processing industry is directly or indirectly in American hands. This could give particular value to independent sources of supply. It would be unfortunate if, either through ignorance or indifference, we were to allow this profitable part of our agricultural industry to go out of our control.

A statement is urgently needed from the Government on how it sees EEC membership affecting the whole structure of Irish farming. At the moment, the Government are still continuing the traditional policy of the Department of Lands of establishing mixed farm units of approximately 45 acres. It may well be that, under EEC, such a policy is nonsense. It is senseless to go on pouring money and the assets or resources of the farmers themselves into the establishment of this type of farm if, in fact, it will not be the most suited or the best fitted for EEC conditions. In fact, it is most unlikely that it will be. It is far more likely that, under EEC conditions, success in farming will go to those specialising in those procedures most suited to our particular conditions.

We shall have to go a long way from the old self-sufficiency idea of producing a little bit of everything and, instead, become specialists in those lines which will give us the best return. This, again, is not something which we can leave over or postpone, as we can the review of the Second Programme, until we become members of the EEC. At this moment, the Department of Lands should be overhauling its policies to meet new conditions. Government aid to agriculture in all its forms should carefully be revised to ensure that it is designed to encourage the kind of development which has a future in EEC. There is no evidence that this is being done. In fact, all the evidence is to the contrary. The Government seem to be prepared to ignore the implications of EEC membership and to spread their resources indiscriminately over the whole range of schemes and subsidies however out of date or irrelevant they may be.

We are to have a complete review of the agriculutral advisory services in the light of the new tasks they will have to perform. The kinds of service and advice appropriate and useful in the conditions of the past may not only be useless but may be damning in the new conditions of the future. It cannot too often be said that without the full support and participation of the farming community no scheme for agricultural development, however well-intentioned or cleverly conceived, can hope to succeed. Until we have a Minister for Agriculture and a Government who recognise that fact, no progress will be made. The gigantic task of adapting our agricultural industry for EEC conditions faces us. So far, the Government appear to have made no progress in tackling the task. Indeed, there is a good deal of evidence that they are unaware of the problems that will be involved and are unprepared to take the necessary action. That ignorance or indifference must quickly be changed. What we need is a major programme of agricultural development worked out on the basis of a close study of future conditions which Irish agriculture will have to work and carry through—and this is vital to its success —in close co-operation with farming organisations, co-operatives and educational bodies. The two most vital economic sections affecting EEC membership are industry and agriculture. In industry we have lack of preparation; problems involved in a manpower policy; re-deployment of workers; retraining of workers; anti-dumping legislation. In agriculture we have the necessary steps taken to gear the country to the competition and the kind of farming that will be most suitable and most effective. People do not farm or work in industry for the love of the type of industry or the type of farm. They do it for a livelihood and because they have to maintain their families. So far as farming is concerned, they do it because it has been their traditional type of work, their inherited family source of income going back for generations, because their roots go deep down into it and because they wish to preserve those roots for themselves and their family. These are the vital problems in regard to which the Government have up to the present shown no sign of effective vigilant action such as was advocated by the CIO reports and such as was involved in the preparation of other aspects.

Probably one of the most extraordinary features of the Government's approach to negotiating EEC membership is that, with the exception of one visit last September, the Minister for External Affairs seems to have no part in the work. It is an extraordinary thing that, in important negotiations affecting the whole economic and social future of this country, the Minister charged with that responsibility has not been in, effectively, as a participant in the negotiation. It is extraordinary that not merely has the Minister for External Affairs been absent but that when the Taoiseach went on tour to the other countries recently the one Minister whose Department and whose interests are most vitally concerned, the Minister for Industry and Commerce, was not brought along on any of the negotiations. He had one isolated trip to Brussels.

Views were made public more than two and a half years ago by the CIO —the problems affecting industry, the problems affecting the workers, the problems inevitable and unavoidable in free trade—and, so far, the Minister for Industry and Commerce has not been in on these discussions, has not been an active participant while the Minister who accompanied the Taoiseach on his trips is the Minister for Finance. The Minister for Finance may be holding a watching brief for the Department of Finance or he may even be holding a watching brief for himself.

As a future Taoiseach.

Here is what the Minister for Finance said about fiscal harmonisation in the course of his Budget Speech as reported at columns 1282-83 of the Official Report of 11th April, 1967—and this is one of the matters that has been referred to by the EEC Commission:

Fiscal harmonisation and the ultimate abolition of fiscal frontiers are among the goals which the European Economic Community has set itself. It is only prudent that we should now be adapting our taxation system to the model which the EEC is shaping for its members. While certain aspects of the harmonised system have not yet been set out in detail, the Council has already approved draft directives regarding the adoption of a uniform added-value tax on expenditure on goods and services.

The Minister said, further on:

It should be possible, without undue difficulty, to adapt our existing wholesale and turnover taxes to this pattern if our hopes of membership are realised. This task would be made much more difficult, however, if we were to amalgamate these two taxes as has been requested by certain interested bodies here.

In April, 1965, the Commission submitted to the Council a draft directive on the form and procedures for the common added-value taxes. The taxes would apply to the manufacture and distribution of goods, to services and imports. Agricultural goods and services would be included but the special procedures to apply in this sector would be laid down in the third directive which is under preparation. Each State would retain the right to decide on exemptions from the added-value taxes and to fix its own taxes pending eventual elimination between barrier States.

As I understand it, the turnover tax and the wholesale tax will not be permitted except possibly in respect of the transitional period. The wholesale tax is not compatible with the added-value tax because it is at retail level, whereas the wholesale tax is not compatible because it would tax the total value of goods at the wholesale stage instead of value added to them at that stage. I adverted and other Deputies adverted to this some time ago, when we said there was no justification, and there is no justification, for the continuation of two systems of taxation, the turnover tax and the wholesale tax. When the turnover tax was introduced, it was said by the then Minister for Finance that it would be impossible to select certain items and exclude others and that it had to be applied indiscriminately over the whole range, that food and other commodities could not be exempted. It has now been proved that they could be exempted. The only difference now is that we have both these taxes imposed, not in substitution one for the other but one in addition to the other. These taxes are contrary to the added-value tax which is the system at present in operation in the EEC.

I mention this because I believe the Minister who should be in charge of these negotiations with the Taoiseach is the Minister for External Affairs. Remember, in Britain, we saw the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary doing a tour which has now been completed, and a similar one was undertaken by the Taoiseach and the Minister for Finance, with a few mild variations. I do not know what the members of the EEC would think if the British Prime Minister brought the Chancellor of the Exchequer, or the Minister for Labour, or some other Minister with him and left the Foreign Secretary at home. That is what is being done here.

I want to get some clarification from the Taoiseach in regard to a statement he made today. He referred to the statement made by Mr. George Brown, the British Foreign Secretary, when Mr. Brown spoke at the Western European Union in The Hague on 4th July. Mr. Brown said:

There would be the further advantage that it could give other members of the European Free Trade Association seeking membership of, or association with, the Community time to conclude their negotiations. If, in the event, any of these EFTA countries, or the Irish Republic, were, by the end of that twelve-month period, in sight of, or at least, well advanced, towards agreement, I am confident that we could agree together on the obvious consequences for the tariff treatment we extend to them.

When that statement is read carefully, it assumes in a somewhat genteel way that Britain will become a member, although there is no basis for that assumption, and when they are inside the club, they will look with favour on EFTA countries and the Irish Republic. When the British Foreign Office was asked for an interpretation of that statement, when journalists asked whether it meant this or that, the reply was: "The statement is clear and we do not require to add anything to it." I find that in the Taoiseach's speech today he says:

I have now been assured by the British Prime Minister that, having welcomed most warmly the Irish Government's decision to seek membership of the Community at the same time as Britain, the British Government will do anything they can to further our ends. He has explained that the suggestion for a year's standstill was intended to provide an adequate measure of insurance for the maintenance of Anglo-Irish trading relations in the hypothetical eventuality of Ireland's negotiations falling behind those of Britain, for reasons outside the control of either government.

I do not know what that means because the British Government knew that this Government were making application simultaneously with Britain for EEC membership. This was not an off-the-cuff observation by the British Foreign Secretary; it was a prepared statement delivered at the Western European Union. If it means anything, it means that if Britain assumes membership in advance of Ireland we are told that the British Prime Minister told us that they will do anything to further our application. The only interpretation of that statement on 4th July is that the British Government have changed their minds within a fortnight or the 4th July statement on this is incompatible. I believe this cannot be accepted.

It is an extraordinary situation that the Minister for External Affairs, when he is available, is not in on the negotiations for EEC membership. It is important that we should give the impression in Europe, and amongst the members of the EEC, that we are committed fully to accepting membership and becoming members of the EEC. The fact is that up to the last 12 months, except for the initial démarche when we applied five years ago, and the statement of the then Taoiseach to the Commission in January, 1962, nothing was done. No mission was opened and the mission that has been opened has not yet a representative from the Department of Industry and Commerce, representing possibly the section of our economy that is going to be most vitally affected if we become members of the EEC.

I want to reiterate the view that has been expressed many times that we have a major job ahead to convince the present members of EEC that we can generally commit ourselves to playing a part in the European community. It cannot be too often emphasised that if we are going to take our application seriously, the conduct of our external affairs policy by the Department and by the Minister must be put on a different plane. It cannot simply be regarded as a hobby for detached politicians remote from reality. What we do externally, the policies we adopt, the speeches we make, the places to which we go, must all be directly related to the advancement of our major national interests. That would seem so basic a proposition as hardly to require stating, but up to the present it does not seem to have had the slightest influence on the Government's approach to this problem. At present our principal objective in external affairs is to secure membership of the EEC on the most favourable terms. That is the only major national objective in the field of foreign affairs at the moment and an end to which all our activities must be directed.

It is for that reason that we must examine the speech—as distinct from the particular votes that were given— by the Minister for External Affairs on the Arab-Israel question. The view expressed by the Minister that he was quite justified in adopting this policy because it had been established ten years ago, in quite different circumstances, was calculated to make the situation worse, because ten years ago France was one of the countries involved on the Israeli side and retrospective condemnation, particularly to a person who has a long memory, like General de Gaulle, is hardly the type of speech, or the line, most likely to secure friends or influence in that quarter. As I say, it was what was said rather than the action taken that evoked criticism and may well have militated against some of our friends in the EEC, or prospective friends, in regard to the decision we wish to have taken in regard to our application. The skilful conduct of our foreign policy must play a key part in the campaign for EEC membership. Discussion and participation in abstract intellectual debates about world affairs in New York are remote from what must be at present our vital interest.

There are other questions involved in this which have been the subject of some comment in the newspapers and in the Dáil, as well as by people outside. They have to be faced up to. The Government should tell us to what extent we will be expected to contribute to the common defence of the European Community as it evolves. There is no use saying that EEC membership does not involve any military commitment. That is so at present in a formal sense. But it must be obvious—I adverted to this originally when our application was made five or six years ago; I referred to it again and the Taoiseach made a reference to it in the course of his introductory speech—that the Preamble to the Rome Treaty says:

Resolved to strengthen the safeguards of peace and liberty by establishing this combination of resources, and calling upon the other peoples of Europe who share their ideal to join in their efforts.

While it is true that the Rome Treaty has no specific reference to defence, clearly the defence of the Community is a burden which all who join it may well have to share. With that in mind, I believe there is an urgent need for a review of the role and nature of our present Defence Forces.

We spent this year in the Defence Estimate a total of £11 million. Of that sum, over £6 million is spent on pay of officers and men and possibly £1½ million on pensions. We have an Army of between 6,000 and 7,000. So that, out of that total expenditure, the Department of Defence, as distinct from the Army, absorbs about £4 million. This must raise a serious query as to how it costs £4 million a year to administer an Army of 6,000 to 7,000. That £4 million is in addition to the expenditure, but if you take £4 million from £11 million, it is easy to see what is spent on the rest.

It must therefore be obvious that the defence capabilities of a country of our size with an Army of 6,000 to 7,000 must be extremely limited at present. That means, in other words, that for conventional military purposes, our Army can be only of limited value. We have therefore to think in terms of what positive role the Army can play. This problem must be studied and account taken of the changes which may exist. Any study of that sort would have to take into account the way in which the defence of the country will have to be fitted into the defence of a European Community generally.

There is no doubt that, while defence is not specifically mentioned and while the Taoiseach said that the question of NATO did not directly arise, it is well to recall that the then Taoiseach—I suppose the present Fianna Fáil Government have not yet abandoned him—when he went to the EEC Commission in 1962 adverted to this question. He said at that time that, although this country was not a member of NATO and for particular political purposes at that time, could not join it, we sympathised with its general aims. He says in page 267 of European Communities:

While Ireland did not accede to the North Atlantic Treaty, we have always agreed with the general aims of that Treaty. The fact that we did not accede to it was due to special circumstances and does not qualify in any way our acceptance of the ideal of European unity and of the conception, embodied in the Treaty of Rome and in the Bonn Declaration of 18 July last, of the duties, obligations and responsibilities which European unity would impose.

We ought to get a clear statement of what we are or are not committed to. I do not think there is any merit in present circumstances and at the present time in refusing to face the full obligations of political and defence commitments embodied in EEC membership. This, of course, is a thorny question because of the fact that we adopted during the last war a policy of neutrality. It has inculcated in some people an idea that neutrality was a policy for all time in all circumstances.

The then Taoiseach quite clearly expressed the view that this country supported the aims of the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation but in the circumstances—of course, this was in 1949, now nearly 20 years ago— the climate of opinion was different from what it is now and political attitudes, traditional approaches and so on, were possibly different. But I can see no reason for refusing to state what our attitude is going to be if the question arises. If it does not arise, we should brush it aside and not get involved in it. But it is extraordinary that, up to now, the only major policy speech by any Minister of this Government to deal with this question was the one I have adverted to by the then Taoiseach.

There are other questions. What preparations are there in respect of education for entry to the EEC? Problems affecting education go to the very root of our preparations. In that connection it is important to inquire what is to be the position of schools which have undertaken very large capital commitments over the years and which now find themselves without any definite indication of how these commitments will be repaid. In that connection I believe any suggestion that a more favourable attitude will be adopted in respect of schools which apply under the new scheme compared with those which opted out of it may well be contrary to equal rights for all citizens under the law, which, up to now, has always operated in respect of grants, either collectively or individually.

As far as Europe is concerned, there are widespread school reforms. We should be informed of the precise implications of these reforms for us: problems raised by the free movement of workers, right of establishment—we signed the Council of Europe Convention on this many years ago and it was ratified more recently—harmonisation of qualifications, liaison bodies of professions within the EEC covering a whole range of qualifications in respect of different categories in the community— agricultural scientists, architects, barristers, solicitors, tax consultants, dentists, accountants, engineers, consultant engineers, nurses, general practitioner and specialist doctors, opticians, pharmacists, journalists, surveyors and veterinary surgeons, inter alia.

Have the Government contacted these professions to ensure that they are in touch with the proposals affecting professional qualifications? There is evidence that some of them have no knowledge of what is happening and virtually none are represented on the liaison committees which are helping to determine future qualifications and even details of courses. In some cases details are already worked out of minimum hours of study, teaching, and so on, in each subject and each professional course and bodies here, so far as I am aware, are virtually unaware of this. Why have not the Government taken up the matter with them? What changes in courses and qualifications do the Government see emerging? These are some of the questions and there are others that I have adverted to and many more will be posed in the course of this debate and these are questions to which the Government must give a clear and unambiguous answer.

Up to the present the Taoiseach's speech has been merely an up-to-date rehash of everything that has been said before, with a bit thrown in from Mr. Harold Wilson and a bit about his trips to the capitals of Europe. It is both dishonest and futile for Ministers and the Government to go on in ministerial speeches urging the people and sections of the community to prepare for EEC membership when the Government themselves either do not know or are not prepared to say what they intend to do in so many of the vital areas in which they have direct control.

There is one thing I would advise the Government to do. At least, take some action. The former Taoiseach was a great believer in action and, God knows, he took action on many occasions and a great deal of it in the wrong direction but, at least, he went somewhere. The idea of postponing a decision on matters because they are difficult, because they do not turn out to be what was anticipated, because they are afraid to present to the people the results of the Second Programme survey—that is the most fatal decision of all—to do nothing—to brush it under the carpet.

If the Government have given attention to these problems—and there is no evidence publicly that they have— they have been grossly negligent in not informing the public of their conclusions. Recently, this White Paper was published. That is mainly a historical document putting into one book all the legislation that is decipherable and digestible for Government Departments and the statutes affecting the various communities—the EEC, Euratom and ECSC. It is not a White Paper on the implications involved in membership. That is merely a historical account of what has happened up to the present.

Five years have elapsed since we applied for membership. There was ample time to give the fullest study to all these matters and to get across to the public all that was involved and all that would have to be done. The job was not even attempted and valuable time which cannot be replaced has been lost by the ineffective dithering of the Government. Let us hope that even at this late stage the Government will recognise their great responsibility and will initiate a realistic programme of preparation in the little time that is left.

I want to conclude on this aspect of the matter: It is often said that we have no choice about whether or not we join the EEC. That is not true. We have a choice. It is the choice between remaining a small island on the outer fringe of Europe, culturally isolated— though in that regard I do not suppose Fianna Fáil would be a stranger— economically stagnant, or joining with the other nations of Europe in building a new order, a new European community which by uniting all in a common aspiration for the future will cancel out the disastrous hatreds and divisions of the past. This is the choice which we as a sovereign state freely make. This is the choice we must make and those who seek to avoid the implications of that choice by claiming that no choice exists are simply seeking an excuse to opt out of the responsibility to participate in the major national effort which will be necessary, if we as a nation are to play in an united Europe the role open to us.

It must be remembered that we belong to Europe historically, culturally and geographically. We, therefore, have the same responsibility as a nation to contribute to the building up of Europe as the individual citizen has for the development of his own local community or county. For us to opt out of Europe would be the same kind of action as that of an Irish person who decided to spend the rest of his life in some small island off the coast, cut off from modern life. There is an occasional person to whom that sort of thing appeals but it is certain that it would not appeal to the majority of the Irish people who would not be long in joining the Common Market as individuals in the event of this country staying out as a nation.

There is no alternative that we can see, providing—and this is the big proviso—Britain goes in. We have always avoided admitting—and I know this because this is traditional Fianna Fáil policy—they tried to avoid accepting as an economic fact the British market. They have accepted it in recent years. It is not as good from our point of view as it was but it is still the best market we can get. If Britain goes in, we have no place economically in the world staying out with the common external tariff against us. There is no use in talking about bilateral trade agreements with some countries that we have not yet got in touch with because we have tried them all, and none of them has given us any comparable advantage and we are finding in recent times bilateral trading agreements have not given us, in the circumstances of today, the same advantages. They were advantageous and this Party and the inter-Party Government negotiated valuable bilateral agreements in the 1940s and 1950s but that day is past and time has eroded the advantages of them. We have to make up our mind as to what is the alternative. If we can get a better alternative, then we are all for it, but until we get it we have to get our goods into the British market or get them into Europe and if Britain gets into Europe, then we have to get our goods into Britain and into Europe as well.

Because of our history—and this point I emphasised earlier in connection with my remarks on NATO— there is a danger that we may lay too much stress on the absolute independence of the individual nation. It is worth remembering that it is only in recent times that Europe has been rigidly divided into nation States. It is now widely recognised that the development of totally independent nation states has in many respects been disastrous for the European people, that it has been responsible for two of the most savage wars mankind has ever known; that the emergence of nation states has played a contributory part in the problem of the general weakening of the rôle of European culture in the world.

The modern European movement is designed to eliminate the conflicts and controversies that have harassed Europe over the past 70 or 80 years and it is also well to recognise that the modern European movement, in which we should and could as a member of the European community play a part, is aimed at the restoration of the ancient unity of Europe. In fact, it is well to emphasise when there are comments made on problems of sovereignty, problems of political limitation, that the policies and traditions associated with the Independence Movement, the policies as adumbrated by the Fenians and as outlined in Sinn Féin by Arthur Griffith, all recognised that independence in Ireland would not mean isolation from Europe.

Concern has been expressed by some people that our national identity may be lost in an united Europe. Surely, national identity does not depend on barriers artificially erected against trade and the free movement of people and ideas? All that is best in our national character should thrive on the stimulation and challenge of inter-play with the rest of Europe.

One of the criticisms that has been expressed is that we may be dominated by the large powers. This talk, I believe, arises from a misunderstanding of the realities of international life in present day conditions. In the modern world, with these super-powers and massive concentrations of economic and military strength, the small country, by itself, has virtually no influence either over its own or anybody else's fate. That is why international institutions actually favour a small country. Such institutions give formal recognition to the small country's rights. Through these institutions the large countries are at least compelled to listen to the views and take account of its problems and interests. In fact, through international institutions, the small country is able to combine with other countries for mutual advantage. I think it is correct to say that, for all its weaknesses and limitations, the United Nations is an excellent example of how an international institution can increase the influence of the small country.

In the particular case of the EEC. the institutions provide specifically for protecting the rights and interests of the smaller members. These institutions are firmly founded on community principle. The community as a whole has responsibility for the welfare of any member or area. That is a protection which this country does not have at the present time. That was one of the things we emphasised during the discussion on the Trade Agreement last year, that we had committed ourselves to a position of unrestrained competition with a large neighbour and without the protection of any of the institutions involving a giant partner such as is involved in the European Economic Community. During the debate at that time, Fine Gael emphasised their concern in an amendment moved at the time, at the inevitable effect of free trade on employment and emigration. We expressed our concern at the terms as negotiated, on the basis that they were unbalanced. Time has proved the correctness of that view.

The EEC is a different institution. The EEC is an institution in which the safeguards are laid down and enshrined in the Treaty. We do not suggest, nor do we believe, that it is perfect. We believe that it faces this country with the greatest challenge since independence, a challenge politically, economically, socially and educationally. The social challenge was emphasised again yesterday when in Britain the British Minister without Portfolio announced further improvements in British social welfare payments. These are questions which will and must affect our interests.

With all these problems, with all these, in many cases, unanswered questions to which we think this Government should provide an answer, we believe that the preparatory steps that have been taken are inadequate, as I have demonstrated, as the facts proclaim and as events and circumstances have proved. However, if Britain goes in, there is no economic future for this country outside the EEC. If Britain does not go in, then we have got to think again. Whatever the ultimate decision is on membership either for Britain or Ireland, the essential economic development work involved in preparation for the competition inevitable in modern life cannot be postponed or delayed further. The only responsible body that has failed to give the lead, that has failed to take the necessary action, is the Government. That is proved by the facts. That is why we have put down this amendment. That is why we want the facts disclosed now to the Dáil and the country so that the people may know the challenge before them. They are entitled to know the facts and they are entitled to be given the full picture.

A true opposition would have been a help in this debate to crystallise some of the problems and clarify the decisions that have to be made. In answer to Deputy Cosgrave, I would assert that no Government could have done more to prepare a democracy, or to get a democracy to prepare itself, for the challenge and opportunities of modern free trade. If Deputy Cosgrave could rouse himself from the complacency of repeated allegations and find some examples where Government action to which he would not object could have helped our industry better to prepare itself, I should like to hear them.

Over the years we have envisaged the coming of free trade, moving away from protection, envisaged the need for new skills in management and workers. We have made available financial aids for consultants, financial aids for adaptation, financial aids for any aspect of management and industry and commerce which would be of benefit to this country in preparing itself. Four successive Ministers of my Party have continually exhorted Irish industry to do something about preparing itself, preparing itself by making use of the aids made available by the Government. Indeed, the main advantage I saw—and I think the Taoiseach at the time saw it—in the Free Trade Area Agreement signed with Britain was that it would be a step towards preparing Irish industry, Irish management and Irish workers for the cold breeze of free competition and their step away from protection. It is since the signing of that Agreement that the greatest amount of adaptation has taken place in our free private industry.

If I interpret the Leader of Fine Gael rightly, he wants Ireland to join the Common Market but he says the Government have not prepared us properly. That is a stand which he has taken for many years. It is many years now since it was described as the Annie Oakley policy of Fine Gael: "Anything you can do I can do better".

Deputy Corish is not quite as clear as that. He asked question after question after question. As Leader of the Labour Party, he did not see any duty or any role for himself in proposing an alternative: "Do so-and-so and I will support that line of action". He sounded quite conservative, and at times I thought he was going to say: "For goodness sake, do not do anything new". There are times when people talk as if one can remain static and that by one's own decision, everything will remain as it is now nice and safe. When every other country around is changing, when the whole world is changing to free trade, then I do not think this island can opt out, or if it does opt out, it cannot survive.

The alternative to meeting competition in free trade on equal terms is not to stay as we are, protected; the only alternative which will be offered is to meet competition across tariff barriers. This would be a much more formidable proposition for Irish industry. However, Deputy Corish did suggest, and I think it is fair enough, that after the Taoiseach's wide coverage of the field— and he did compliment the Taoiseach for preparing something which was, in effect, a White Paper—that different Ministers should relate their Departments to the situation which will exist under EEC membership.

Hear, hear: I think I asked that.

The Deputy did. I think it is fair enough, and the individual Ministers concerned will come here and relate the activities of their Departments to the prospects of membership and what action must be taken, in their contributions to this debate. I think I should like to take the same line myself. Many of the events which will influence the lives of people with whom I am concerned and for whom the Department of Labour was set up will be dealt with by the Department of Industry and Commerce. It still continues to be the function of organisations dealt with by that Department to provide new job opportunities and see to the competitiveness of industry. If I do not refer to some aspects of European Free Trade and the effect on Irish workers, it will be because these will be dealt with in another contribution.

The matters on which I propose to speak or deal with are the provisions of the Treaty of Rome concerned with labour affairs and the practical implementation of these between member countries of the Community and the implications of these provisions for us in Ireland when membership is achieved. The information dealing with this limited aspect of the Community can be found in the White Paper on European Communities issued in April of this year in part of Chapter 9 dealing with freedom of movement for workers and in Chapter 10 which deals with social policy.

I was asked to relate the activities of my Department to the EEC. My Department is at present carrying out a full review of the labour provisions of the Treaty of Rome with a view to drawing up a detailed negotiating brief for the Government on these provisions, and as part of that review, I have invited the Irish Congress of Trade Unions and the Federated Union of Employers, to submit their views so that these can be taken into account by the Government in settling our negotiating position. The Treaty provisions with which I am mainly concerned are those relating to the free movement of workers, general social policy, equal pay for the same work for men and women and training, retraining and resettlement of workers, including the operation of the European Social Fund.

As regards free movement of workers, we are already familiar with the totally free movement between this country and Britain. The net movement of labour has generally been outward. In the period 1956-61, the net emigration from this country was running at the rate of approximately 42,400 per year, whereas in the period 1961-66 the annual rate fell to 16,800 which is a welcome move towards the target emigration figure of 10,000 in 1970 as envisaged in the Second Programme for Economic Expansion, with, of course, the final aim of eliminating involuntary emigration altogether. To make an assessment of the movement of labour which would occur between European countries is difficult. The only indication—I presume it is some indication—that I can get is to take the information gained from the number of permits issued for foreign workers seeking employment here. I have had an examination made of those permits and they fall mainly into two categories. The first category covers specialists employed by firms concerned with the erection of plant or buildings or new industries here. Most of these firms also employ substantial numbers of Irish workers and movement of this type of specialist workers, which is on a temporary basis, would be likely to continue in the situation of our membership of the Community, but I do not think it would assume proportions which would threaten the livelihood of our citizens or the employment of many of them. In fact, this type of temporary movement of workers into Ireland usually represents new job opportunities being created.

The second category for which permits are issued relates to employment in the hotel catering, hairdressing and entertainment. I expect there will be two-way traffic in this sphere, and if Irish skills are to keep pace with continental skills, then training abroad for Irish workers may be required. The movement of catering workers to this country would be seasonal in character and the training arrangements already in effect here should keep any such inward movement of foreign workers within reasonable dimensions. I understand that in hairdressing also the training of Irish workers to match international standards can be achieved and may be expected to achieve the same result of keeping the inward movement of such workers to Ireland within reasonable proportions. Similar consideration would apply to entertainment.

While it is not possible to make a forecast of something which will arise out of the individual decisions of a large number of people, I think it is clear that the provisions of the Treaty of Rome for free movement of workers will not have a very big overall impact on the labour market in Ireland. In the course of my discussions with representatives of the Commission in Brussels, I was told that the only significant movement was into areas having really attractive employment opportunities. I think the long term scarcity of labour on the Continent would suggest that the attraction for workers would remain centred on the Continent.

How many permits did the Minister say were issued?

It was only the categories I mentioned. I am trying to give information which the Leader of the Labour Party wanted and I think it will be of interest to individual workers who may fear the implementation of this provision. Apart from that, there will be the reciprocal advantage of allowing Irish workers to go to different places in the countries of the Community, and while at the beginning, I do not expect this movement to be very great, I think in time the new experience in organisational methods or in trade union methods and in other skills gained in these countries by these workers when they return home should be of great advantage to this country.

The Labour Party are not too concerned about those coming in either as hairdressers or chefs. What they are concerned about are people who may have to move out of the country.

I can only give an assessment of the people who move in, and I am trying to allay the anxiety of those who think the free movement of workers might involve foreign workers displacing Irish workers. As I said, the creation of job opportunities for workers here will depend on the policies implemented by the Minister for Industry and Commerce. The social policy objectives of the Community are stated in general terms in the Treaty and their aim, as set out in the Treaty, is to promote improvement of the living and working conditions of workers to ensure that they share in the general progress. The member states have recorded their belief that such sharing in the general progress would result not only from the operation of the Community which would promote the harmonisation of the social systems but also from the provisions of the Treaty providing for the approximation of administrative and legislative measures.

In addition, the Commission was given the task of promoting close collaboration between member States in the social field, particularly in relation to labour legislation and working conditions, vocational training, social security, industrial health and safety, trade union legislation and collective bargaining. In furtherance of this the Commission has undertaken a series of studies which have served to pinpoint differences between the member states with a view to harmonising conditions throughout the Community.

The Treaty of Rome provides for the establishment of the principle of equal pay for the same work as between men and women workers. When speaking this evening, the Taoiseach suggested that a transitional period would be negotiable to the application of this principle by a country newly acceding to the Treaty. It would be idle to deny the difficulties involved in the application of this principle of equal pay for the same work in Ireland.

What are the difficulties?

It is still causing difficulties in the member countries of the European Community.

What difficulties are there?

Even though all discrimination in remuneration was to be removed in these countries by 31st December, 1964, the equal pay principle has not yet been put into practice fully in any of the member States. The position in Ireland is that we have allowed free negotiation, free collective bargaining, to determine wage levels and also to determine the trends in this relationship between pay of men and women, and the Government policy has been to follow the trends set up by this free negotiation.

Very advanced.

Further to that, the position is that there has not been any general support for implementation of the policy here. The Irish Congress of Trade Unions has passed a number of resolutions in favour of equal pay and I suppose the unions who supported it would say that this is their policy.

This Government refused to adopt the ILO Convention on this.

The experience of the Labour Court and the conciliation service is that the issue is not being pressed with any great energy.

Does the Minister want strikes over it? Is that what he is inviting?

I did not mention strikes at all.

The Minister said the issue is not being pressed with energy.

If the Deputy listens, I will say more.

There is such a thing as the ILO Convention.

These problems are solved by negotiation. This is an integral part of the Treaty of Rome and we will have to face up to the full implications of it within a period after our joining the Community. It is extremely difficult to determine what exactly is equal work, or the same work, for the purpose of equal pay. This has caused a lot of difficulty in different countries but I think we will undoubtedly have to consider legislation to give women workers in Ireland the same rights as are given to women workers in the EEC countries and we will have to set up suitable machinery to ensure that they can claim and secure those rights.

The application of the principle in the public sector here will require very close examination and the Minister for Finance is arranging to have inquiries made as to how the principle is applied in practice in the public service employment in the EEC countries. There is one thing which must be obvious to most Deputies, that is, that we will have to try to implement the principle of equal pay in such a way that our position vis-à-vis our competitors will not be adversely affected. Any addition to our industrial costs or any addition to taxation necessary to pay for this principle in the public sector would certainly be most unwelcome to our industrialists. It is hoped that phasing of the introduction of equal pay and the methods of its implementation will avoid any unwelcome results. One thing I should say to Deputy Dunne and to other Labour members is that if they are so keen about this—in fact, we will have to do it anyway—is that if an increasing part of the national cake should go to women for the same work, then they must be prepared to forgo or curtail their expectations of the same piece of the cake. Deputy Dunne does not look as if this appeals to him. If there is more money to be spent on the women workers of this country, other people cannot have the same money.

The workers of this country have not been eating cake.

If there were an equal sharing of everything, Deputy Dunne would not have what he has. If the wealth of the world were equally divided, many people would have a lot less than they have now.

Very deep economic thought. It is in the Department of Lands the Minister should be.

Is the Minister saying that if women get more, men should get less by way of pay, having regard to the size of the national cake?

They will not get as much as they would get if women did not get it. This is simple. If there is so much money and if the women are allowed equal pay for the same work, then the men will not have as much.

For instance, if you have £20 and a man gets £12 and a woman £8, you will give £10 to the man and £10 to the woman to keep within the £20?

In fact, the principle guiding the Community is not a desire to do well by a woman worker. The principle of equal pay is to make sure that no country will have cheaper workers and therefore have a competitive advantage over other members. This was the thinking behind the equal pay provision in the Treaty. That is straight from the horse's mouth.

It is good business.

It is to make sure that one country will not have an advantage by having lesser paid workers.

It seems to be the opposite. The Minister has said that this principle has not yet been applied in any of these countries and we must take care we do not apply it before the others. It would seem to me to be the opposite.

Deputy Dunne should read this without the interruptions and it will come out well.

I am generally subjected to a lot of interruptions. It makes parliamentary life interesting.

That is quite true. You might like to sing a song and make it more interesting.

It helps you along, does it not?

Next I should like to deal with training, resettlement and the European Social Fund. The purposes of the European Social Fund are to increase employment and to increase mobility, geographical and occupational mobility, of workers within the Community. For that purpose, the Fund will reimburse half the expenditure incurred by member States in ensuring a productive re-employment of workers by means of occupational retraining and re-settlement allowances, and on maintaining during approved industrial re-conversions, the wage levels of permanent workers, pending their full re-employment. Up to the end of 1966 the Fund had paid out over $40 million to member states towards the cost of retraining and resettling 508,000 workers.

About 80 dollars a head.

Work it out. The existence of the Fund is evidence of the resolution of the member states to increases the opportunities for employment of their workers and to contribute to the raising of the standards of living. As indicated in the White Paper I mentioned, the question of extending the range of activities of this Fund is already under consideration by the Council of Ministers. When we become members of the Community, we will of course——

Did the Minister use the term "when"?

——be eligible for benefits.

Have you got a hot line?

We will be eligible for the benefits of the fund but we will also have to pay contributions.

Which will be the bigger?

Therefore, we will have an interest to ensure that we get a return and that we have our retraining and resettlement schemes in full operation so that they can be brought within the scope of the European schemes when we join. Our retraining is in the hands of An Chomhairle Oiliúna and they have got from the Oireachtas ample powers under the Industrial Training Act to set up training schemes which will come within the European Social Fund. As far as resettlement allowances are concerned, the Redundancy Bill which has had a Second Reading includes authorisation for re-settlement schemes and this can be brought in to operation very quickly once the Bill is passed through the Oireachtas.

The Council of Ministers of the Community has laid down general principles for the implementation of a common vocational training policy for workers at all levels. Their aim is to co-ordinate the action of member states so that workers will be qualified to meet the needs of an economic policy and technological programme. The general principle envisages the gradual harmonisation of standards of training and requirements for admission to various kinds of training. Arrangements have already been made in regard to those classes. The various member states have had recommendations issued to them in relation to vocational matters and my Department are keeping in close touch with those matters so that any future action can be considered in the light of experience gained in the Community already.

On this question of retraining, I should like to make the point that most people are agreed on the broad lines of action which we must take in adapting ourselves to conditions within the Community but when it comes down to the practical cases affecting people's own sectional interests there does not seem to be always willingness to show the flexible attitudes which we would like to see towards necessary change. Within the Community progress towards the establishment of the Common Market and changing technology has meant that large numbers have had to be retrained and redeployed with assistance from the Social Fund. The establishment of An Chomhairle Oiliúna here has provided the necessary framework for retraining activities in this country. Those arrangements have been brought into operation with the very welcome co-operation, assistance and leadership of employers and trade union organisations. I would hope that the combined efforts of the trade unions, the employers and the Government will secure the acceptance by everybody of the need of adaptation at all levels. I suppose it is natural that there should be some reluctance in regard to change particularly where old loyalties and traditional skills are concerned but if people persist in this attitude, which is very obvious in the Labour Benches——

That cannot be said of Fianna Fáil.

——then our aspirations in regard to this cannot be dynamic and we would suffer badly.

God be with Arthur Griffith.

I can only ask Deputies, particularly the Deputies in the Labour Benches, to encourage people to see that adaptation is something that they must be concerned with. It will not serve the country if the people do not mentally gear themselves for change, retraining and resettlement.

Has the Minister ever heard of a chameleon?

I can see I am not convincing you but maybe some day you will accept the need for flexibility in regard to adaptation and change. The only way the people can survive in a rapidly changing world is to gear themselves towards this.

There is a little oldfashioned word called "twister."

The Government recognised some time ago the need for technological change and in order to protect the workers from the effect of this the Government had to do something about it. This is the basic idea behind the Redundancy Bill, which had a Second Reading in this House, and there is a redundancy scheme which I aim to bring into operation in early 1968.

I shall have a few words to say about that later.

There was some talk of dragging our feet on this redundancy payments legislation. The Bill, as those who read the White Paper know, was foreshadowed by a Government White Paper on a manpower policy. Nobody can accuse the Government of not preparing this democracy. We showed the way in a manpower policy in a White Paper in October, 1965. This was prepared with full consultation between the Government, the employers and the trade unions. There are Deputies in this House who participated in that consultation and I am sure they will testify to the thoroughness of the consultation which took place on the proposals in the Bill. I may say on my side that those discussions were of tremendous help to the officials of my Department who had to work on the Bill. It is a very complicated piece of legislation and I was grateful for the assistance of employers and the workers' representatives. Those talks and consultations were of tremendous help to them also. This took quite a bit of time. When I am accused of being slow on this, I could ask the Labour Benches what would they say if I brought such a measure as this in which affects the livelihood of thousands of people without consultation.

Do not take all the sins of Fianna Fáil on your shoulders.

I have not got all amendments from the Opposition Parties yet. I had a message conveyed to me from a member of a particular body.

Tell us the name of the body.

I suppose you would speak on their behalf without being asked. This body are appreciative of the action of the Department of Labour in seeking their views on the proposed revision of the particular code of law. This was taken over by this new Department. They have taken an active interest in what has been done so far. While I cannot accept all the suggestions made at those consultations nor could I commit myself to doing so, I should like to say that I will continue to have those consultations. This is a slow process. I have to consult as far as possible the people concerned in the legislation which I propose to bring in in the future.

As I said, the redundancy payments legislation was brought in some time ago and the Second Stage was passed early last month. I have been worried about the rate of progress. It is nobody's fault. It was essential that all the time taken has to be taken, but in anticipation of the passing of that Bill, I have now arranged that the scheme which will be put into operation after the passing of that Bill will be prepared in anticipation. I have now arranged that the Bill can come into operation by 1st January next.

In relation to some accusations made last week about other business pushing the Redundancy Bill out of the House, I assure the House that if the present Bill had passed through all its Stages in this session, the scheme would not have been brought forward by another day. I have so arranged it now that the scheme will come into operation as if the Bill had been passed in this session. I do not know whether Deputies would like to have it in operation by the next election but I can assure the House that any redundant Deputy will have the Bill there——

Surely the Minister could not finalise the scheme; surely it will be dependent on legislation?

I knew somebody would say that. There is an awful lot of printing, an awful lot of documents, explanatory and so on. I have been able to anticipate——

But there is nothing final until the legislation is enacted.

That is fair enough.

I have been trying to give Deputies a picture of the implications of the Treaty of Rome but there has been more interruption than knowledge.

It is not charged with anything like martial affray.

They would rather give their interpretations when the Minister is not here to answer them.

He has been trying to say he knows his enemies.

There are other clauses in the Treaty of Rome which are of interest to the Minister for Labour, namely, those referring to working conditions, industrial safety and collective negotiation. The Treaty merely contains just general statements of intention to foster collaboration between member states on those subjects. On the question of safety, the Commission has put forward proposals to the Council for the prevention of accidents from hoists, belt conveyors, winches, and so on, and we are examining the provisions——

Lloyd George brought them in here, for God's sake.

Of course, the Deputy does not have to know anything to talk about this but I want to give him some knowledge.

You are going too fast.

The Department of Labour has regard to the different recommendations of the ILO. As these indicate the trend of thinking on subjects such as manpower, health, safety, welfare of workers, they will keep us aware of modern thinking and in line with what will be required of us and what we will be encouraged to foster.

Does it recognise trade unions and all? It is a very forward-looking document the Minister has been talking about.

Trade unions will have to recognise a lot of things.

The Minister will have to recognise that trade unions can teach him.

All I can say is that the creation of this Economic Community has resulted in considerable economic and social progress for member states and for the workers in these countries who have benefited in prosperity through increases in their real wages, through longer holidays, shorter working hours and in other ways. It is reasonable to expect that this country and the workers in it will share in the same prosperity.

They will take their share of the burden.

As Deputy Dunne must know, joining the Community will not provide a sudden solution to all our problems.

This comes as a shock.

It will bring great benefits and represent one of the greatest challenges to this country. The success we achieve will be determined by the efforts we are willing to make. I do not know how often the former Taoiseach, Deputy Lemass, reminded people here that nobody owes us a living. From membership of the EEC we will get benefits only in proportion to the amount of effort we are prepared to make. Some of the provisions of the Treaty of Rome relating to labour matters will give rise to some problems, but with co-operation between the organised workers and the employers, these difficulties can be overcome. I am certain that from the labour point of view, the workers' point of view, our decision to reactivate our application is a good decision and a successful outcome to that application will benefit Irish workers.

Before the Minister concludes, would he answer a question? How many persons are there in Brussels or in the other member states of the EEC on our behalf?

I went myself to Brussels, and so did other Ministers. We have a permanent Ambassador to the EEC and we have Ambassadors in the member countries.

And that is all?

When the things become active, we shall be very active, but there was no real point in having a full staff there for negotiations when negotiations were not going on.

We had staff there and they were withdrawn.

What intrigued me most about the statement of the Minister for Labour was one of the last words he used—the term "reactivate". Perhaps that term in relation to our application for membership of the EEC means something but activation or activity has been signally absent from the Government during the past number of years while they have been intending to take this country into the Community, that is, if they were permitted to do so.

Going away from this point at the moment, it appears from the opening paragraphs of the Taoiseach's speech that the operation the Government engaged in was not entering an economic community but a political community. The Taoiseach said:

We do not, however, look upon the EEC as merely an economic institution. The Treaty of Rome is the foundation-stone of a much greater concept than the exchange of trading opportunities.

Yet, to an extent, all the talk has been in relation to the economic situation of the country.

It would be as well in dealing with this matter if the general public were advised as to what exactly the Government and the largest Opposition Party have in mind because the Taoiseach goes on to stay:

The Government have made it clear on several occasions that we share the ideals which inspired the parties to the Treaty of Rome and that we accept the aims of the Community as set out in the Treaty, as well as the action proposed to achieve those aims.

So far as I know, there are not political clauses in the Treaty of Rome as such, and yet the Taoiseach repeatedly stressed the role he thinks this country should play in Europe as, it appears from the trend of his contribution, part of a political grouping. He also said he did not think this action would be incompatible with Ireland's activities in the United Nations.

We should be clear in this regard because Government representatives at the level of the Taoiseach and Ministers for many years have said in this House, in the country, and outside the country, that they speak with an independent voice, the voice of a small nation, that they are speaking there as a representative of a small nation in this world of ours where there is so much toil, without any commitment to any grouping, whether east or west, and that they hoped that in times of difficulties and problems, their voice might be listened to.

When replying, the Taoiseach should indicate quite clearly whether the Government are departing from that position, and whether they envisage not just a question of applying for membership of an economic community, but that if and when this objective is realised, someone else will speak for this country. There is nothing in the Treaty of Rome about NATO, the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation. Does the Taoiseach envisage that if we are accepted in the European Economic Community, this is a move towards linking up with the countries in that organisation?

The Taoiseach referred to defence and the Leader of the Fine Gael Party was quite definite here this evening. It appeared to me that Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael were indicating that in these times they are consciously thinking of joining a European bloc. This may not be true, but they should spell out whether or not it is true. Deputy Cosgrave talked about the armed forces of this country—7,000 men—and the money expended on them, a sum of £12 million, I think. In the world circumstances in which the spokesmen of this country have endeavoured in a small way, but nevertheless a fairly effective way, to provide that this is a link with the emergent nations, are the Taoiseach and Deputy Cosgrave now thinking in terms of a link with a European bloc, and if so, will they set that out clearly?

It may be their view that they can look for membership of the EEC without accepting the obligations which are not part of the Treaty of Rome, but which apparently both the Taoiseach and Deputy Cosgrave are anxious to accept. For quite a long time, the Taoiseach, the former Taoiseach and Ministers have been stressing the economic, social and other aspects. The Taoiseach's statement introduced the question of possible political involvement and the Irish people at least are entitled to know what he has in mind.

The Labour Party amendment deals with the question of a statement of conditions. While accepting that details of negotiations or discussions would not normally be brought before Dáil Éireann, I do not think it is impossible for the Government to indicate quite clearly to the House, and to the people, the exact type of conditions they feel they must secure. I do not know on what basis they negotiate, but in the trade union movement, of which I have some experience, it is almost impossible to negotiate until you say, first of all, what your claims are. If a responsible group of trade union representatives go to meet their opposite numbers, they usually go having set out broadly what they have been directed to seek. In the course of the subsequent negotiations, there may be variations and the final decision is frequently not on the full claim served; it is rather what it has been found possible to achieve by way of negotiation.

If we are talking now about negotiations in any real sense, then surely the Government should be in a position to state that certain things constitute what they believe should be the terms of reference, what should be the conditions on which this country will enter into discussions? If the Government did that, they might be in a position at least to say that they are going to negotiate. Is it not the situation, however, that the Government have been so patently anxious to get into the European Economic Community that they have not even sat back to consider the conditions on the basis on which Ireland might be prepared to apply for membership of the Community?

It was stated by the former Taoiseach and repeated by the present Taoiseach and by Deputy Cosgrave, that if Britain's application for membership is accepted, it would be unrealistic for Ireland to remain in isolation on the edge of the Atlantic. There are some very important aspects in this whole problem. First, what have the Government been doing since they decided to consider negotiating for membership of the European Economic Community? What have they been doing since they negotiated the Anglo-Irish Free Trade Agreement. The use of the term "activating" seems to be a misuse of words. It is a misnomer in relation to the Government. The Government have failed in their duty to the Irish people. They have exhorted the people. They are good at exhortation. There never was a Government to equal them in that regard. If the whole Front Bench were rolled into one, they would make the most powerful preacher ever heard. They are notorious for exhortation. But Governments and Ministers are not paid to exhort. They are paid to give leadership and to look after the interests of the country, economically and otherwise.

The Minister for Labour spoke here a few moments ago. It is not fair, I think, to blame him too much, but one of the areas in which Government failure has been demonstrably shown is in the sphere of doing something about the training and retraining of workers. The need to deal with this problem was patently evident many years ago. The Minister for Labour has been a comparatively short time in office, but everybody knows that, even as a result of the Anglo-Irish Free Trade Agreement, to say nothing of possible membership of the European Economic Community, there may be substantial redundancy. Yet, we had a situation here over the past few weeks in which the Minister for Agriculture, with the support of the Government to which he belongs, spent hours debating the Marts Bill, and an important measure designed to cope with the problem of redundancy is left over until next session.

Ministers, of course, have always good excuses, and the Minister for Labour said that, even had this Redundancy Bill passed all stages this session, administratively it would not be possible to provide the benefits until next year. That excuse might be acceptable, were it not for the fact that the Bill was in fact introduced far too late and there is no use in the Minister trying to lay the blame for that on the representatives of the workers and employers' organisations. They cannot be blamed for the lackadaisical methods adopted by the Government in relation to matters affecting the ordinary people. The Government would have done a service to the people if they had devoted a few hours to the discussion of redundancy compensation legislation instead of wasting valuable time over the Marts Bill.

There is another matter for which the Minister for Labour declines responsibility. Perhaps the Minister for Finance and the Minister for Industry and Commerce may deal with it later in this debate. I refer to the provisions of the Treaty of Rome in relation to dumping and protection against dumping. Protecting our workers against dumping will be a very serious responsibility indeed. It is a matter of immediate and vital concern because the livelihoods of thousands of our workers could disappear overnight. What legislation have the Government introduced in advance of any application for membership of the European Economic Community to protect our workers from the effects of dumping? There is a Bill on today's Order Paper —the Imposition of Duties (Dumping and Subsidies) Bill, 1967. Surely something more, in the light of our experience over the years, is called for instead of just another Imposition of Duties Bill? If legislation is to be effective in protecting the workers against dumping, it will have to be legislation which will secure that no goods can be landed in any part of this country, unless there is a complete assurance that those goods are not being dumped.

Much is said in the Taoiseach's statement and more has been said and poured out in the press and on TV, at ministerial dinners, and so on, about the small size of the industrial units of this country. Ministers cannot say they are unaware of the problem involved where an industrial unit employing 100, 200, 300 or 400 people may have to cease operations and deprive them of their employment, not because France, Germany, Holland or Belgium want to dump their manufactures in this country—God knows, our export market, from their point of view, would not be so attractive—but because of the unscrupulous Irish entrepreneur, the unscrupulous Irish importer, our own fellow-citizen, who will seize an opportunity to enrich himself, irrespective of whether the importation of low-cost goods will result in the disemployment of men and women in this country. In this regard, let us not mince any words because we are no Irish Island of Saints and Scholars.

There are enough Irishmen knocking around the country who, if they see an opportunity of making a profit in this way, do not bother very much who gets hurt. Possibly they are encouraged. After all, Ministers of this Government are very found of expressing their great admiration for private enterprise and private initiative. This has been their code: make a bit of profit and do not mind what happens to anybody else. The Government have done nothing in this regard. Whether or not they are in a position to introduce legislation that would be fully effective at the time they are re-activating our application for membership of the EEC, I do not know, but certainly effective anti-dumping legislation was called for in this House and outside it year after year by representatives of workers and by representatives of employers. So far, the Government and their representatives have been using cliches and words that mean nothing under this heading and have done nothing at all. Perhaps the Minister for Industry and Commerce will lend his voice to explain the little he has done, as his colleague, the Minister for Labour, has explained how little he has done or how little has been done by the Government in this field.

The Minister for Labour indicated that the Ministers will relate the activities of their Departments to the problems of free trade and entry to the EEC. He listed two or three things. He talked about the free movement of workers and the problems arising from it. This country has been plagued for generations with the free movement of workers to employment abroad. Despite all the activity we hear about, there are fewer workers in employment now than when the Government first talked about free trade. It would be very difficult to convince the workers about job opportunities when there is a smaller number of jobs available now—and that does not take into account the outflow from agriculture.

The Minister for Labour talked about adaptation. I often wish the Front Bench would think about a little adaptation and productivity themselves. The usual consideration of productivity in any single industrial undertaking is a greater production of goods from the same number of workers or, in some cases, unfortunately, the same production from a smaller number of workers. If this Government applied the ordinary accepted theories of work study to their Front Bench, they would realise that we could do with half the number of Ministers because they are certainly not showing any great productivity and are not an example to the country in this regard. They appeal to workers to co-operate. They appeal to and exhort employers and all sorts of organisations. If there is a little factory to be opened or a shop which will show a few yards of cloth, a Minister takes a few hours off to go down to open it and to get his picture in the paper.

A carwash station.

Yes, I forgot that. Does this give a picture of a Government Department anxious to deal with problems and to meet the challenge of the future, an expression often used by the former Taoiseach, Deputy S. Lemass? The Ministers have so little to do that they can chase around from Billy to Jack in any part of the country. We do not mind the Taca dinners, because they must get a few shillings for their political funds, but it is a different matter when they are opening this and closing that, and so on, and not even in their own constituencies, when there might be some excuse for them. If they were concerned to show a good example, they would do their job. Anybody can open this or that, as was demonstrated only last week when the new Lord Mayor of Dublin deputised for the Minister for Industry and Commerce at the opening of something or other. We know why: he always voted Fianna Fáil.

The Minister said, in regard to social welfare in the EEC, that there are references to a number of matters. Of all the Articles contained therein, the peculiarity about the Treaty of Rome is that only a few short references—only half a dozen or so—are made to social welfare objectives. There are seven short references to this in the Treaty of Rome in seven different Articles. The Minister again apologises for refusing to implement, as has been suggested here and elsewhere, a recommendation of an ILO Convention on equal pay. The ILO recommendation is clear and definite, that for people doing the same work, work of equal value, and having the same qualifications, there should be the same pay. The Government will not adopt it. The Minister says it would cost something. We have the situation that there are nurses with the same qualifications, having the same responsibilities and doing the same type of work, with different rates of pay. That situation exists across a wide section but the Minister's latest excuse is that it would cost some money.

We are aware that the proposal for equal pay is not being applied in the EEC. We are also aware that spokesmen for the Government have created the impression, in regard to this matter of the equalisation of social benefits, that if we succeed in our application to become members of the EEC, social welfare payments must be equated to those of other member countries. Of course there is no such provision in the Treaty of Rome. Recipients of social welfare payments who, practically without exception, are members of the working classes, have got the impression that they will be protected from possible economic difficulties because of a clause which requires member states of the EEC to provide the same social welfare benefits, but it is a mistaken one, because there is no such provision. There are different levels of benefits and social insurance benefits in the various EEC countries.

I should like to refer to this question of training and retraining. As far back as the late 1950s, without any reference to the EEC, the trade union movement was calling for proper training for their workers, proper retraining schemes, redundancy compensation schemes, and so on. That was 20 years ago. Fianna Fáil have been in office for a long time and they have been deaf for a long time. I do not know whether the remarks of the Minister for Labour will be quoted in the press, but he talks about opportunities for higher incomes, more real wages, longer holidays and shorter working hours. This appears to be a carrot which the Minister wants to hold out. I should be interested to know if the Taoiseach told us we were going to have higher real wages because, in his speech, he refers repeatedly to possible increases in the cost of living. Anyone whether he is a farm labourer, a road worker, a civil servant or anything else, knows that if the cost of living goes up, real wages decline. Yet the Minister for Labour is talking about higher real wages at the same time as the Taoiseach is talking about an increase in the cost of living arising out of this application.

What does an increase in the cost of living result from? I do not propose to devote my time to dealing with the attractions being held out to the farming community. Emphasis has been placed on the fact that it is going to be a bed of roses for the farmers, that overnight the agricultural community will have guaranteed prices, higher incomes and everything will be lovely. Of course, the Taoiseach is only saying that in relation to cattle and livestock and dairy products, and it is estimated that there will be benefits flowing from this agreement but the position for the tillage farmer will not be so satisfactory. He is not so sure about him. For those who grow wheat, it will be a very doubtful proposition. He suggests that the small farmer in the West should do very well out of this. As far as I can gather, it appears from the Taoiseach's contribution that the British grazier will do very well, as he always appears to do, whether he is inside the EEC or outside it. There is no doubt that if the farmers do very well and receive guaranteed prices for their livestock, the workers in the cities will eat very little meat, and indeed their chances of getting a bit of bacon will not be too rosy either, to say nothing about the increase in the price of butter, milk, etc.

Of course, this was not dilated upon at any great length by the Taoiseach. I doubt if he wants to tell the workers in the factories in the city and town that the possibility is (a) that their industry may not be too secure and (b) that even if they have employment, their cost of living is going to be seriously affected. There is one aspect of this matter which must be examined and this is the reason why the Labour Party have tabled their amendment. The Labour Party do not consider that sufficient accurate information is being made available to the people. Even more serious is the fact that steps which could have been taken by the Government over many years to protect the mass of the community have not been taken. In these circumstances, the Labour Party believe that a new look at this problem, a little more information and much more activity from the Government than has been shown so far could be of value.

When considering the problems of the EEC, it is well to consider whether everything is going well within the Community itself or whether there are not problems arising. Rapid developments in technology and the growth of monopolies within the EEC have become a matter of serious concern for the organisations of workers in the Community, and increasingly they have to comment on that type of monopoly development. Of course, we have seen it in a small way here. Possibly we might see it in a larger way in circumstances in which we would not be in any position to do anything about it.

In the Treaty of Rome, there is provision to assist the depressed areas of member states where difficulties might arise. It is possible to make arrangements for the provision of plant and equipment and to help subsidise exports in those circumstances. These provisions have been availed of in respect of Southern Italy. In the event of the rather depressing picture shown in the Final Report of the Committee of Industrial Organisation actually appearing on the screen, so to speak, it might be well to ask ourselves in what areas of this country that situation would show. It would show in the cities where there is a certain amount of industrial employment. In the event of what we might describe as major industrial undertakings in Dublin, Cork and Limerick feeling the breeze of competition, has there been any examination of whether in fact, under the terms of the Treaty, those areas could be described as depressed areas and assistance given? These are the type of problems that require examination. It is not much use when workers are laid off or lose their employment to start examining whether it is possible to provide special assistance within the terms of the Community. These things should be done by applicant states in advance. I do not know whether in fact any attempt has been made to examine this type of problem.

In the course of his statement, the Taoiseach said the Government have decided that the best course is:

First, to complete the review of progress under the Second Programme, supplementing it by reference to the re-assessment of industrial preparations for free trade now proceeding and linking it with the 1967 review of both industrial and general economic conditions. All this will be done in consultation with the NIEC.

Deputy Cosgrave has already referred to the fact that this review should have been carried out and that we should have seen the results of it by now, but again we have some delay.

The last paragraph here makes very interesting reading. The Taoiseach said:

Meanwhile, there will be no hiatus in economic planning. For the immediate future, the objectives will be, first, to get back to a steady sustainable growth rate based on a realistic view of what can be attained in the short term, and on careful management of all internal disturbing influences, particularly public expenditure, credit and money incomes; secondly, to improve efficiency and raise productivity in all sectors so as to prepare the economy for increasing international competition; and, thirdly, to initiate the changes in attitudes and policies necessary to set the Third Programme firmly in the perspective of the eventual aim of full employment.

These are beautiful words. As I said earlier, what do they mean in relation to the Government? We talk about improved efficiency and increased productivity. The Government have not shown any example in this regard by their own actions. The Taoiseach, the former Taoiseach and Ministers of State have repeatedly referred to the failure of management of industry. The Taoiseach talks about the need "to initiate the changes in attitudes and policies". That is the type of statement Ministers are very fond of making. Where will these changes be made? They will not be made at the level of Government and have not been made at that level. If they are not made at the level of those who own and control industry, where are they to be made, or is this another exhortation like the many others to management and to workers?

The Taoiseach said that there would be no hiatus in economic planning.

The Taoiseach should take two or three minutes of the time he takes to reply to the debate to indicate where there has been economic planning as such in this country. A plan connotes the indication of an intention to do something and following it up by action. There has been forecasting, if you like, some economic programming but I do not think any of us here has seen any example of economic planning in the country. The decision to apply for membership of the European Economic Community could not be considered as economic planning because that was a decision to go ahead with something in regard to which even at the present moment and even from the statement made by the Taoiseach today it is evident that the Government have no clear idea as to what the situation will be if—and I repeat, if—their application for full membership is accepted.

In the light of his own admission, I should like to hear from the Taoiseach details of the problems that will be faced by the industrial side of the Community and the problems that will arise as a result of increases in prices and in the cost of living and what positive plans the Government have to deal with these problems.

In relation to these matters, I do not know whether or not the Government feel that because there has been an expenditure of $40 million in the European Economic Community arising from the free movement of labour and because there is a fund to be set up to deal with farm incomes and certain price adjustments—the conditions on which a member State may derive benefit from this fund are not quite clear—the extent of the Government's planning is to hope that this country, if it becomes a member, will have a fairly substantial sum from this fund to assist in solving the very real problems facing the country.

Accent has been laid, not so much by the Taoiseach today but by other Ministers, particularly the Minister for Finance and the Minister for Agriculture, on the benefits which they say would be derived by the agricultural community as a result of our membership of the EEC. The ratio of the number employed in agriculture to the number employed in industry is somewhat different in this country from the ratio in member States of the European Economic Community. In the countries making up the Six, the ratio is ten per cent of the population employed in agriculture to 90 per cent employed in industry and commerce and in view of the fact that these countries have viable large-scale industries it is somewhat easier for them to maintain prices. The percentage of the population of this country engaged in industry is 33 per cent. It used to be 50 per cent but the figure is declining fairly steadily. In this country there are not very many large-scale enterprises when semi-State bodies are taken out of the calculation. In their final report, the Committee on Industrial Organisation indicated that there could well be a reduction of seven per cent in the number of persons working in industrial undertakings.

The significant figure is not the number of persons registered as unemployed at a given time, although that can be a very serious and very disturbing figure, but that there are fewer persons at work. That is a very serious reflection and bears out the Labour Party's stand, first of all, in seeking to obtain from this Government an explanation of their lack of activity in the economic field and, secondly, justifies the suggestion that the motion before the House could be premature at this point of time. If there are fewer persons at work now than there have been in recent years and if, as is being contended by official spokesmen of the Government, the problems not only of increasing the number of workers but even of maintaining the existing number at work are becoming rapidly more difficult as a result of the Free Trade Agreement and as a result of our application for and possible acceptance into membership of the EEC, it is clear that the Government have a prime duty to consider, first of all, whether their decision to reactivate this application is one that should be made in advance of their disclosing the full implications of membership for our sovereignty.

The Labour Party are right to seek a disclosure of those implications. The Treaty of Rome does not say anything about a political agreement; yet both the Taoiseach and Deputy Cosgrave keep talking about political obligations. The Irish people are entitled to know what is meant when the Government say they accept all the implications, including whether they would feel disposed to allow our Army of 7,000 men to engage in some conflict. The Parliamentary Secretary is not smiling, I hope. There is no one who has greater respect and regard for the people who serve in the Irish Army than the Members on these benches; nevertheless, we should like to know exactly what type of obligation the Taoiseach and Deputy Cosgrave envisage in this regard. I should like to know as a citizen, and I am sure there are thousands of citizens who would also like to know.

We should like to know also whether the role of the Minister for External Affairs would, in respect of some proposal, be that of saying to some Foreign Minister or Cabinet Minister: "Whatever you say, we agree. We are members of this little club and whatever you do I am prepared to support in the name of the Irish people." If that is the position, then some Members of the Government benches have been playing at a charade for some years when they have been endeavouring to persuade the people that this being a small country, its voice should be heard in the councils of the nations, that because it is a country without alignment, without commitment, it would be in a position at the appropriate time to make a helpful contribution. If it is thought by the Government and by Deputy Cosgrave, the Leader of Fine Gael, that that situation no longer exists, if it ever did, then let them tell the country and let them explain whether they think the EEC is an economic community or a political community, or whether they are thinking of this community as some form of third force. Nobody is quite clear at the present time what their views are on the matter.

The Taoiseach should accept the responsibility of spelling out to the country the effect on trade and possibly of explaining, at the same time, his failure and that of this Government to do anything definite to protect the workers from dumping of goods from low cost countries or the dumping here of surplus goods at completely uneconomic prices, and to indicate what steps they propose to take to deal with any Irish citizen, no matter what section of the community he comes from, who will be prepared to make fat profits on the importation of such goods to the detriment of those workers. It has been done before and, no doubt, it will be done again, unless the Government take steps to prevent it. It is also desirable that we should be given, in detailed and specific terms, the Government's estimate of the effect on employment in industry and agriculture.

I cannot see any reason which prevents the Government from indicating in general terms the conditions on which they should be able to negotiate. The Parliamentary Secretary was not here before and possibly has not had the benefit of my short contribution on this point. I think Deputy Booth knows the score on this point; if workers try to negotiate with an employer without having stated to the employer what they want, they would not negotiate for very long. They would sit at a table and make courteous remarks of one kind or another, and after some time the employer's representative would say: "Gentlemen, do you not think you should let us have a definite claim. Let us know what you want so that we can see whether there is a basis for negotiation." Repeatedly in his speech and repeatedly in statements of Ministers, there is talk of negotiation but if they mean negotiation, they should surely be able to say what is the basis of negotiation. If, as I suspect, they mean that they said to EEC: "Let us in, for God's sake" let them tell the country that and not try to mislead us by saying they could not possibly state the terms of negotiation because if they stated minimum terms, they might negotiate better terms ultimately. Did anybody ever see somebody submitting a claim for the minimum they were prepared to accept and talking of negotiation? Or did anybody ever see an employer offering across the conference table the maximum he was prepared to give in the first discussion? I have no doubt that Deputy Corry, who is pretty expert in negotiation, if he were buying cattle would not state exactly, on the first encounter, what he was prepared to pay or, if he were selling cattle, the figure at which he was prepared to sell at the start of negotiations.

The Government has been neglectful of the Community in their failure to prepare for an eventuality which they say they have foreseen for some time. They failed to prepare the economy, failed to take steps to have training and retraining schemes in operation; failed to bring in legislation for redundancy compensation and above all, they have failed and are failing up to now to disclose to the Irish people the commitments they are prepared to make on our behalf. They introduce a motion here regarding the reactivation of our application for membership of EEC and they open the discussion on it by concentrating generally on the purely political side of the question. The Irish people deserve a little better than that. God knows, I do not know what they did to deserve the Government they have today.

The former Taoiseach made it quite clear to the House on several occasions that the Government were prepared to accept the full implications of Common Market membership. My only quarrel with the Government is that they have been so long about doing anything to reactivate our application. For the benefit of the previous speaker, I say that it is very hard to divorce politics and economic considerations. To my mind, the Common Market was founded in an attempt to secure for Europe the peace which she had been denied for over 100 years to the grave detriment not only of Europe but the world as a whole. I was glad that the Taoiseach came in today as the first member of the Government to give any information to the House on the political views of his Party in relation to EEC but in spite of the very long speech he made he really gave us very limited information as to the aims and objects of the Government in relation to EEC.

It is true that, at London Airport, I think, when he landed on his return from his interview with the Italian Government, he told newspaper reporters—whether Irish, British or continental, I do not know—that in the event of the United Kingdom not getting into the Common Market, our application would cease to be activated. Those may not be the exact words used as I have not got the quotation here but he did not go as far as that in the House this afternoon. What he did say was that it could be assumed that our application would run in conjunction with the British application, which, I suppose, is tantamount to the same thing, that our application is, as I have always maintained, a joint application along with the United Kingdom.

That is wrong. I think the Taoiseach would be well advised to change his tactics. If he wants any indication as to why he should do so, he should look at the past history of relations between the two countries, and if he wants something more up to date, more in keeping with the present position, he need only read the speech which all Deputies now have at hand made by the British Foreign Secretary. No doubt they will know the meaning of that speech. There is one paragraph which says that they anticipate that the British application, if accepted, may mean that the others can wait in the queue. In other words, I would read it as meaning that we would, perhaps, by our application, the Danish Government by theirs, and subsequently the Norwegian Government by theirs, help consideration of these applications within the confines of the Common Market, help the British Government over the wall and that when they got in, as they think they will, they will do their best to help us in afterwards. Is that a sound basis of trust and negotiation on which to have two sovereign countries negotiate for entry into EEC?

It ought to be clear to the Taoiseach now that there are three courses open to this country. The first is to pursue the course he is pursuing, in which case, in my humble opinion, those we are negotiating with will not accept us as a separate and individual application and therefore will not consider us as a separate entity in our attempt to get into the Common Market. That is one way. Another way we could do it is to watch the British get into the Common Market and hope we would get in afterwards. The third way would be to remember that we have jurisdiction and control, complete hegemony and the right to conduct our own affairs and to make a separate application as a sovereign nation to get into the EEC. Until we do that and until we make it crystal clear that that is our policy, we will not be treated as if we count in the struggle for the enlargement of the Common Market.

There seems to be a lot of wishful thinking on the part of political commentators, high civil servants, members of the Government, members of the Dáil and members of the public generally that the British are certain to get into the EEC. There is also a theory held in those exalted circles that the Common Market is likely to disintegrate. I want to reassure Deputies in so far as I have any knowledge of the situation that there is no fear of the Common Market disintegrating and no fear of any wide measure of disagreement within the confines of that European economic society. As to who will get in and who will not get in, the Taoiseach stated today—and I do not blame him because probably his advisers are telling him that everything is grand and that we are sure to get in—that he was emotionally affected by the reception he had got in Europe. Now the Italians have perhaps benefited more from the European Economic Community than any other country. Their standards of living have gone up; their purchasing power has gone up. They are doing what they did not do before, importing beef into the country. Their industries are expanding and improving. They have perhaps gained more from the Common Market than any of the other countries concerned. For that reason, it is quite obvious that they would have a considerable interest in the expansion of the Market.

The Taoiseach goes to the Benelux countries — Belgium, Holland and Luxembourg—tonight or tomorrow. I have no doubt he will be warmly received there and it will be indicated to him that they would welcome Ireland, the United Kingdom and the other applicants concerned in the Common Market but you must remember that the Benelux countries are a free trade economy and therefore have nothing to fear from an expansion of the Common Market. The only country which the Taoiseach has visited where there was any doubt or a little suspicion of a fly in the ointment was the Federal Republic of Germany. Doctor Kiesinger is the perpetuation of the policy of Adenauer and that policy was friendship and amity at all costs between France and Germany for the benefit of Europe. That is the only country where there was a little shadow of doubt. Doctor Kiesinger said he would welcome Ireland into the Common Market but—there is always a "but" and one must read the statement in the context of the nice flowery speeches that are made in Europe which are somewhat different from what we in a colder climate make —France's opinion had to be taken into consideration.

The Council of Europe was sitting at the time General de Gaulle imposed his veto before. Speeches were made from every country at that organisation deploring the fact that General de Gaulle had imposed his veto on the British. They were placatory speeches, nice speeches about how inimical it was to the interests of Europe and so on. One learns a great deal more in the lobbies of a parliamentary assembly than one does in open debate. I think my colleagues will agree with that. I gained the impression in the lobbies of that assembly that there were several countries that were quite satisfied to leave the Common Market as it was. I am giving this information to the House because I believe there is a lot of muddled thinking at the moment. I also believe that we have moved so very late that it has militated greatly against our chances.

On the Continent of Europe, decisions are taken by parliamentarians. Parliamentarians somehow count for more in Europe than they do in Ireland, or even in the UK. Of course, ultimately a decision here is taken by the Minister concerned but decisions are often made by those who advise Ministers. We are at a certain disadvantage here in assessing the position in that our Ministers are at home in the vast majority of cases: it is only recently they burst into Europe. They are going out now regularly. Some people criticise them for doing so but I think they are doing it too late. However, they have to rely to a large extent on the advice they get from those who represent us in ambassadorial and other advisory posts in Europe. My personal experience is that these people do not always get the true facts of the case because, as I have said, decisions are taken in Europe and in most parts of the world at parliamentary level. There has been a lot of muddled and wishful thinking where people have gone out, as the Taoiseach did to Italy, and have come back absolutely confident that it was only a matter of time before the doors were thrown wide open and we and the UK would get into Europe.

The arguments recently put up by General de Gaulle have been somewhat different from the arguments he utilised on the previous occasion but make no mistake about it, General de Gaulle knows Europe. He knows France, and not only does he know France, but he knows the thinking, official thinking and political thinking, that is going on within the confines of the EEC.

Debate adjourned.
The Dáil adjourned at 10.30 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 26th July, 1967.
Top
Share