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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 19 Oct 1967

Vol. 230 No. 8

Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Free Travel for Pensioners.

102.

asked the Minister for Social Welfare if he is aware or difficulties which have arisen for spouses of contributory old age pensioners in obtaining free travel facilities by reason of wives' names not appearing on contributory old age pension books issued in respect of a pensioner and his old age pensioner spouse; and if in the circumstances he will amend the regulations so as to provide spouses in such cases with separate passes to entitle them to free travel.

Since the beginning of October, the free travel facilities have been extended to include spouses aged 70 and over of old age (contributory) pensioners for whom increases of pension are payable. To enable those so qualified to avail themselves of the extension, separate pension books are issued to husband and wife on application to my Department.

103.

asked the Minister for Social Welfare if having regard to the desirability of keeping pension books in safe places, he will remove the obligation on pensioners to produce their pension books on buses and trains to qualify for free travel facilities and issue instead suitable travel passes.

I do not at present contemplate making any changes in the method of operation of the free travel scheme. The use of travel passes was considered when the scheme was being drawn up but was rejected in favour of the use of pension books.

Would the Minister not consider that this situation is unsatisfactory, inasmuch as it necessitates the production of the book, which is often embarrassing for old people? Surely it should not be beyond the skill of the Minister's Department to provide some simpler or more presentable method whereby persons entitled to these advantages could identify themselves without such a public display of their circumstances?

Quite apart from the question of embarrassment— I appreciate Deputy Dunne's remarks in that regard—is it not the position that if the book is lost, there may be difficulty for a period with regard to obtaining payment? From that point of view, would the Minister not agree it would be better that the book should not have to be hawked around?

We took all these things into consideration and came down very much in favour of the book at the time. Mind you, I would prefer to see a pensioner keeping a book in his pocket than having it lying around somewhere else. For one thing, it enabled us to get the scheme going quickly, without waiting to have approximately 170,000 passes prepared. We later prepared an inset for the book, but the new book, to be issued in January, will specifically state on the cover that these free travel facilities are available to the holder, and will have a little plastic cover which will obviate the necessity of opening the book.

Would the Minister say whether that works out less expensive or more expensive than vouchers or passes?

I could not say really, but I think it is not more expensive. There is the question, too, of passes being lost, getting into the wrong hands, and having to be recovered. The book is always carefully kept by the holder. With the new book and plastic cover, they will have no complaint. We considered every aspect of the matter.

104.

asked the Minister for Social Welfare if he will take steps to provide free travel facilities for recipients of British old age pensions who are resident in this country.

105.

asked the Minister for Social Welfare if he will introduce legislation to enable recipients of British old age pensions living in Ireland to travel free in public transport.

With your permission, a Ceann Comhairle, I propose to take Questions Nos. 104 and 105 together.

The scheme of free travel applies only to persons in receipt of pensions from my Department but these include a number of persons aged 70 years and over who are also receiving British retirement pensions. The scheme, which is unique in this part of the world, can be regarded as more or less experimental in its present form, but until adequate experience of its operation has been obtained, I do not propose to extend it to include any further classes.

Surely the number of people affected by what is proposed in the question, that is, those living in Ireland who are in receipt of British old age pensions, would be so small as to make no appreciable imposition on the Revenue, whereas the benefit to the people concerned would be considerable? Does he not consider it would be the proper thing to do not to differentiate as between old age pensioners but to have them all treated alike in a simple matter of this kind? Surely it could be arranged easily that this be done?

I am rather sympathetic with the Deputy's point of view. At the moment we are looking into this question. There are a number of other factors, too, such as cross-Border travel. Reciprocity might be at fault. As time goes on, I hope we will be able to improve the scheme.

They have not a whole lot of time; that is what they are short of.

Could the Minister give an assurance that the arrangements as submitted by Deputy Dunne will be implemented during the next few months? British pensioners, wherever they reside all over the country, are making representations to Deputies in this matter and we have to tell them the law does not cover them as laid down at present. In view of the points made by Deputy Dunne, particularly the point as to the amount of the cost to the State, with reference to old age pensioners, perhaps he could see his way to implementing this. I am sure the Minister is aware that it would be desirable, in view of the close relations between this country and Great Britain, to have British pensioners included in this scheme.

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