Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 24 Oct 1967

Vol. 230 No. 9

Committee on Finance. - Vote 20 — Office of the Minister for Justice.

Debate resumed on the following motion:

That a sum not exceeding £278,600 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1968, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Justice, and of certain other Services administered by that Office, including a Grant-in-Aid; and of the Public Record Office, and of the Keeper of State Papers and for the purchase of Historical Documents, etc.

— (Minister for Justice).

Mr. S. Dunne

Looking at the Minister's introductory speech of July on this Estimate, one sees that it relates to: "Salaries and expenses of the Office of the Minister for Justice, and of certain other Services administered by that Office, including a Grant-in-Aid; and of the Public Record Office, and of the Keeper of State Papers and for the purchase of Historical Documents, etc." One such as myself would be interested to hear from the Minister something more about the purchase of historical documents. For instance, what historical documents are we providing for in this Estimate? As far as I can discover, there is no mention of historical documents. So far as State Papers are concerned, I did discover that "the Irish Manuscripts Commission is continuing"— I am quoting the Minister at column 1267 of the Dáil Report for Wednesday, 5th July, 1967 —"its work on the preparation for publication of the Calendar to the Council Book of 1581-86", which no doubt is compulsive reading and something on which one would like some enlightenment as to what exactly it is. The Minister continued: "the list of political prisoners in Kilmainham Jail during the period 1789 to 1910, and two 16th century Munster Surveys and the Record Commissioners' calendars of inquisitions for the 16th and 17th centuries."

"Political prisoners" is what catches my eye in this regard, bringing us up to date to 1910 as to the identity of the political prisoners in Kilmainham Jail. It may not seem very relevant in these days for me to raise this matter at all but I am interested in discovering just how a political prisoner is defined, and how you are going to tell one from the other, how will the Manuscripts Commission determine, or separate, as it were, the sheep from the goats among the multitude of unfortunates who had to spend hard time in that awful place known as Kilmainham Jail, which we, in our uniquely Irish way, are making a national monument. We are possibly the only nation in the world who would make a national monument out of the symbol of human degradation and insult which was offered to generations of men and women there since it was erected.

I do not speak only of those who shouted: "God save Ireland" as they were mounting those 13 steps. I speak of many people who went into that jail and suffered because they committed civil crimes. They had perhaps stolen sheep or stolen anything else to keep the wolf from the door. Those are not to be listed, although in my view some of them are far more entitled to be listed than those who made loud boasts of what they had done. However, that is merely a personal preference. I know that possibly it will not find echo elsewhere.

I should like to know what the scholars thinks is a political prisoner. I should imagine that practically anybody who went into the portals of that bastille up to 1910 would fit that description, as they were people who were saying not "God save Ireland" but "God save my family from starvation". I would call them political prisoners but no doubt they will not be listed here. They are the forgotten, voiceless, unremembered sufferers. Therefore, I do not know whether it is such a good thing to make flesh of one and fish of another by having a roll of honour of this kind.

However, to get down to the mundane everyday matters with which this Estimate concerns itself, I find mention of the Landlord and Tenant (Ground Rents) Act, 1967. I should like to add to what has been said already in regard to the defects in the Act which have become apparent in the very recent past. On Thursday last, some Members of the House, representing the Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown constituency, raised this matter and I should like to mention here now as well the question of the imposition on tenants, who apparently are in fairly considerable numbers in the Dún Laoghaire and Sandyford area. I am sure many of those people will be found elsewhere. There are a large number of those people who cannot avail of the provisions of the Act and who when they set about purchasing their ground rent, find that the landlord has been able to establish that he is legally entitled to charge excessive prices for the fee simple. This, of course, is an absolute contradiction of the intention and the spirit of the Act.

It is also further proof, if such were needed, of O'Connell's remark that you can drive a coach and four through any Act. It appears to be as true today as when he said it. The Minister, on Thrusday last, indicated that he, too, was concerned with this situation because he is anxious to see that this kind of injustice does not prevail. He referred to the fact that he was awaiting a report of the Commission which was inquiring into the working of the Act. I should suggest to him that commissions are like the mills of God and they are not half as sure or as certain, and it might very well be that if this matter is left until the report of the Commission is available, grave injustice will have been done to the people in the area referred to.

The Proby Estate was mentioned. I am certain that the landlord in this particular place will not be alone. If he is allowed to get away with this breach of the spirit of the Act, others will follow his example and an impossible situation will be created for those who are anxious to purchase their fee simple. In the light of that, I want to put it to the Minister that he should not dally or wait unduly long for this report of the Commission but that he should, as he indicated he would, act as a matter of urgency.

The suggestion was made that there might be a special Bill brought into the House. I am sure it would be passed with expedition both in this House and in the Seanad in order to close this loophole in the ground rents legislation. That possibly is about the best way of remedying the position. I commend it to the Minister. If any injustice is ever done, it is practicably impossible to undo it. We all know the inhibitions which parliaments of all kinds, and Dáil Éireann as well as others have in regard to retrospective legislation. In order to avoid any defence of those ground landlords at a later stage on the undesirability of retrospection, I urge now on the Minister that he should act without delay and bring in a Bill to relieve the people who find themselves in the position of having to pay exorbitant prices, far in excess of what was envisaged by the framers of the Ground Rents Act, for the purchase of their fee simple.

I note in the report of the questions which were addressed to the Minister last Thursday that those people were referred to as planter titled. Personally, I want to say it does not matter to me whether they are planter titles or native titles because we have natives who are just as efficient in this business as planters ever were. Let us not be too finicky about this. In fact, some of the latter-day natives could give planters lessons in the extraction of money from the Irish people in so far as property dealings are concerned. They have brought to the task of the extraction of money from purchasing tenants of various kinds not alone the desire to acquire wealth but the inherited cunning of centuries of want. That is a deadly thing. Quite apart from whether they are planters or not, we should correct this abuse before it is allowed to develop any further. The only way I see that that can be done is by emergency legislation: a very simple Bill would appear to do it.

In his introductory speech, too, the Minister mentioned the need, on which everyone is agreed, to amend the malicious injuries law as it now stands. As we well know, the law as it exists in relation to malicious injuries is a hangover from the days when the administration of the law, and the discovery of offenders against the law were placed as a community responsibility on parishes and on counties. It stems from a time of autocratic rule and has about it all the very worst external signs of oppressive legislation, inasmuch as it penalises innocent people by making them pay for damages, personal or material, damage to persons or property, for which they can have had no responsibility, good, bad or indifferent. This is the law as it stands at the moment.

Malicious damages are recoverable from the funds of local authorities. This is manifestly a survival of a time which is long past. The Minister feels similarly in this when he intimated that he was about to remedy that situation, but, so far, nothing concrete has apparently been done towards that end. I would urge again on him in this matter that he should lose no time. In the circumstances in which we live, Governments, too, are liable to be of shortish duration. Time flies and the occupants of ministerial posts today may perhaps be the opposition backbenchers of tomorrow; and, while men of goodwill will occupy such posts as the Minister's, it behoves us to prevail on him, in so far as we can, to do the right thing and lose no time in doing it.

The same remark would apply with regard to what the Minister had to say about the need for a new Criminal Justice Bill, to which he referred in his speech.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I would remind the Deputy that it is not in order to advocate legislation on an Estimate or to criticise legislation. The Deputy must get some other opportunity of raising these matters.

Mr. S. Dunne

I accept that. I mention these things because they were mentioned in the Minister's introductory speech which has always been a fairly reliable fount of information and people like me must make a contribution of this nature. I do not want to advocate legislation but I want to ask the Minister, with regard to his reference to his intention to bring in a comprehensive Criminal Justice Bill, which he indicated in that speech would be circulated during the Recess, to tell us how near he has got to that end and how soon we may expect it will become a fact. It is obvious that such a Bill is very necessary.

Sometimes this cliché about a war on crime is used by the Minister — and indeed by me. I am not accusing the Minister of using clichés; we all do. Somebody said last week that clichés embody the truth. Still, the phrase has become a cliché. To me, sometimes, it seems to be a phoney war, to use another cliché in this sense. I do not think that we have aroused public opinion sufficiently to the point where co-operation with the police in matters of crime prevention or detection has become acceptable. People say, of course, that this is due to historical reasons. I do not believe that: I do not think it is related to historical reasons at all. I think it stems basically from a lack of moral courage. People no longer regard the Garda Síochána as representative of a foreign power. That is not why they refuse to cooperate with the gardaí. Citizens who walk along the street and watch a guard being assaulted by, say, a number of thugs stand idly by or walk away. They do not do so because they are more Irish than the Irish themselves or because their fathers fought or their grandfathers were Fenians. They do it because they have not the moral courage to do anything about it, or the physical courage. This is the simple truth. It is a very hard thing to do. Personally, it is not a test to which I would like to be subjected every night in the week.

I think that possibly the only way we can bridge the gap in this matter, the gap between the position of the police who are the direct administrators of the law and the public who are the beneficiaries of law and order, and the only way we can try to achieve a get-togetherness in these matters of the operation to prevent breaches of the criminal code, is by having the police identified more with associations of citizens, by their being more readily available for consultation with, I would suggest, tenant's associations, in the city of Dublin anyway, by attending meetings of groups and participating in discussions on local problems of various kinds bearing on their duties.

The trouble is that the police are regarded by most people as being in a class apart, to be sent for only when there is trouble or difficulty and to be avoided when there is not. It is not an easy thing to dispel this kind of prejudice, or this lack of moral fibre, on the part of the public. I hope I do not sound like a preacher, because I am as guilty as anybody else of lack of moral fibre, but I am trying to analyse as much for my own sake as for anyone else's, and to brush aside a lot of the codology that goes on, associating the police with patriotism, which is so much bunk with regard to memories of things past.

I was struck, too, by the fact that the Minister said that in 1966 there were 85,000 on-the-spot fines for parking offences. I wonder how many motor cars or vehicles there are in the country and what percentage is represented by that colossal figure. This question of parking fines is, of course, one of the big problems of the age. Last year I had the fortunate experience or the unhappiness — it can be described either way, depending on where you are sitting — of being in three European capitals on the one day; in Paris, London and Dublin. Each had one problem in common when I looked around: in each city there was a police officer strolling deliberately along the streets checking the number of cars parked in the wrong places. The same thing can be observed wherever you go. This is one of the big world problems, of course, not peculiar to Ireland; and one which leads to a great deal of public annoyance and abuse.

This matter of the use of the public highway is a sphere in which the Department of Justice has a considerable function. In the matter of speed and so on, we often see displays of the various facets of human nature. It has struck me on occasion — as I am sure it has struck many other people — that the nicest person in the world, once he gets behind the wheel of a car, is liable to become a different individual and to show the utmost disregard for his neighbours' rights. It occurred to me the reason for that is that motorists as a class are enabled, by the invention of the automobile, to prove in public their superiority over or, at least, their equality with the rest of mankind by the minimum physical effort, that is to say, the gentle pressure of their big toe on the accelerator. If real effort had to go into this contest of proving superiority, we would have far better manners and far more regard for rights.

Of course, one sees throughout the city the utter lack of manners on the part of young drivers. I refer to that vast and not too respectable class of the community in their adolescence, of both sexes, who appear to have been born fortunately into affluent family circumstances and who have been presented by their adoring parents with very fast mini-cars of a certain make, whose parents take no thought whatsoever in the matter of spoiling their children or the rights of other people on the road; who not alone endanger themselves, with such sad results about which we read every weekend in the newspapers, but who endanger other innocent people also going about their lawful activities.

In this matter of the public highway, as it enters the domain of the Minister for Justice on parking, it is high time that in Dublin, at least, the Department, through the Garda authorities, initiated top level discussions with the local authorities to see what can be done about this evergrowing problem, which is creating such frustration and annoyance among the citizens.

We have CIE advertising on RTE every night, interviewing citizens on their views about traffic. It is time the proper authorities examined the traffic problem to see what could be done about it. There are buildings in London and elsewhere, where parking facilities are available on more than one floor and where it is possible to park quite a considerable number of cars in a relatively small area but methods such as that have not been tried here, as far as I know, and it is high time they were, because it does not seem that you can persuade people to keep out of the centre of Dublin.

In any event, there are those who would favour compulsion in this matter and who would try to insist that the citizen should be compelled to leave his or her car a certain distance from the centre of the city and make use of public transport. However, this raises the question of individual liberty and, of course, once that matter rears its head, the whole question of compelling anybody becomes indefensible. Therefore, we are not tackling the parking problem with the urgency or sense of importance with which we should address it. It is a "Come day, go day, God send Sunday" kind of an attitude.

The Corporation did send advisers in. There have been improvements, undoubtedly, very big improvements, but it is beyond thinking about what the situation would be today, had those improvements not occurred. Had we still, for instance, the situation of 15 or 20 years ago at College Green — of which I have no recollection worth talking about, except of that tremendously active and admirable officer who used to run around there trying to keep the traffic under some semblance of control — had we that disorder still obtaining today, if we did not have the one-way street pattern we have now, the confusion, as I say, would be beyond thinking about.

It has been estimated that the number of cars on the roads will multiply in the years ahead. In the light of that, what are we doing to plan? We have got to get together on it; we have got to get the responsible authorities together and have the thing put on a properly-planned basis. We have got to see what has been done with any success anywhere else and all the time it should be borne in mind that no country, as far as I know at any rate, has solved the problem entirely. But other countries have done a lot and we should try to learn and to profit from them. The initiative must come from somewhere, and it could come from no better quarter than the Department of Justice and the present Minister.

There was mention in the Minister's statement of parking wardens replacing parking attendants and traffic wardens replacing the Garda, and perhaps he would say something on it when he is concluding.

This country has figured in the international news sheets of late as being a kind of a drop, in inverted commas, for drug trafficking and passport trafficking, if you do not mind. I do not know how true this is because one appreciates that the cross-Channel papers, particularly those published purely for cross-Channel readership, are liable to suffer a kind of a delusion or condition about what goes on in this ancient and storied land of ours; but there is this talk and I see in the story running in one Sunday newspaper about Mr. Philby — a remarkable performer who dissembled for so long and so successfully — that he mentioned Ireland in the context of his activities; and indeed we figured, too, for mention in the Blake case: one of our boys was alleged to have been very much involved in that. Without giving away State secrets, and it is the fashion now to give away State secrets because secrets are not secret any more — because everybody knows everything——

Mr. Cosgrave

Or thinks he does.

Mr. S. Dunne

Perhaps.

Mr. B. Lenihan

The Deputy is an excellent dissembler.

Mr. S. Dunne

I do not know whether the Minister means that as a compliment, but I should like him to say if there is anything in this canard that this country is a kind of halfway house to perdition for those who are bent on world destruction by means of spy rings or personal destruction by means of LSD, and I mean LSD in tablet form, not the crinklers. I should like the Minister to say a word about it because it might clear the air. On the other hand, if he does, it may distress, may have the effect of distressing certain journalistic gentlemen on the far side of the water who always look to us with hope and assurance when things are dull.

Every so often we read of sales of ministerial cars and one is struck by the very low prices they command. Undoubtedly, they are pretty well used when they finally come under the hammer. There is reference to the restocking of the Depot in this Estimate. I may not be quite in order in referring to it but I do not know if any Mercedes cars are involved. If they are, we know that second-hand Mercedes can be had very cheaply, a fact which does not seem apparently to percolate outside this House too effectively. It is possible to get a Mercedes at a much cheaper price, second-hand, than, for instance, lobby correspondents might be able to pay for new cars. However, I merely mention that as an aside.

I wish to wind up by coming back, naturally enough, to fundamentals — the question of prison conditions. The prison population has been reducing progressively in the course of a considerable number of years and to some extent this must be said to be due to the excellent efforts being made by those who concern themselves with the reform — rehabilitation, rather — of people who undergo imprisonment. There are others who will tell you, of course, that the prison population is going down because the district justices and the judges are letting them away with murder. It is very much a matter of which view one takes.

I tried last week to say what I thought on this difficult subject of punishment of offenders. I am not one who believes in the infliction of punishment as a deterrent as a general rule, but at the same time, the community must be protected from the barbarians and we still find them in our midst. It is such a big problem that on the question of prison conditions there has been a progressive improvement but I wonder if we can say the same of the pay and conditions of prison officers. Surely the job of the prison officer must be one of the most difficult, at times dangerous and at all times depressing jobs there is? I remember, and I a very young fellow, being in Mountjoy as a guest and talking to a warder there who told me that that was the biggest hardship of the job — the depression that the very nature of the job induced: the fact that these men, in those days anyway — it seems so long ago now — felt they were a class apart, that they were carrying a very heavy load on behalf of society and were not adequately paid for it.

That is true, and we on our part must accept the responsibility adverted to by Deputy Dillon on an occasion not too long ago that for those upon whom we thrust severe burdens, such as the Garda or prison officers, we have got to be prepared to make provision greater than that which applies to people in other occupations, just as we do, with far less justification perhaps, in so far as the administrators of the law are concerned at certain levels, and I am not quarrelling with what we do in respect of judges. Just as we increase their salaries on the basis of the argument that they must be placed in a position which will enable them to administer the law without fear or favour, and, as we agree with that princple, so also should we insist upon the least of these brethren being similarly treated, that is, the prision officer who has the difficult and very awkward job of handling the offender personally and trying to keep order and at the same time encouraging his rehabilitation. I hope the Minister in his reply will tell us something which will be of some value to those people whom I have mentioned and whom others have mentioned as suffering by reason of the defects in the Ground Rents Bill which we passed some time ago.

Mr. Cosgrave

I want to raise one particular matter and then a few general matters. The specific matter is the question which has been raised with the Minister both in this House and outside it by the Dún Laoghaire Corporation and also by representatives of the Dublin Bar Association regarding the establishment of a separate district court in Dún Laoghaire. This is a matter which was considered quite some time ago by the Dún Laoghaire Corporation and also by interests concerned, the legal profession and organisations such as the Dún Laoghaire Chamber of Commerce and representatives of certain trade organisations as well.

The basis on which a case has been made for the establishment of a separate district court in Dún Laoghaire is the fact that the population of Dún Laoghaire makes it the third largest borough in the State. Dún Laoghaire itself is a busy commercial centre. It has a port of national importance. Adjacent places such as Blackrock and Dalkey, as well as the suburbs, are also busy. The population of Dún Laoghaire in 1956, when the last census figures were taken, was 47,000 Since then, there has been an increase and the population of the borough is now I think over 50,000. If, in addition to that, the population of the surrounding area or the suburbs is taken into account, the population of Dún Laoghaire and suburbs would be approximately 70,000. These areas are not precisely defined but they are generally regarded as areas such as Shankill. Stillorgan, Foxrock, Cornelscourt, Dean's Grange, Cabinteely, Galloping Green, Loughlinstown, Carrickmines and part of Ballybrack which is outside the actual borough of Dún Laoghaire.

At present, Dún Laoghaire is the only borough without a separate district court having full jurisdiction in civil, licensing and criminal matters. Other boroughs such as Cork, Limerick, Waterford, Galway, even Kilkenny and Sligo, which are smaller, have district courts with full jurisdiction and other places such as Drogheda, Clonmel, Dundalk, Athlone, and so on, including Bray, have district courts which sit either weekly or twice a month. I think it is well settled and has been referred to here on a number of occasions that the district court should be easily accessible to the public, that the district court should provide quick and reasonably inexpensive justice and that it should sit in areas and places to meet the convenience of the public generally.

These criteria do not apply at present for Dún Laoghaire, in so far as the district court, as it at present operates for the Dún Laoghaire area, has limited jurisdiction. There is the added complication that, for certain purposes, part of the borough of Dún Laoghaire is in the Bray court area, another part is in the Dundrum court area and, for civil purposes, portion of the townland of Kingston, which is in the district electoral division of Ballybrack, is in the Kilmainham court area. I think it will readily be seen, from these few examples, that the inclusion of parts of the borough in different court areas is most unsatisfactory. It is confusing to litigants as well as to solicitors.

A litigant from Ballybrack may have to travel as far as Kilmainham to prove a debt. In the case of the Corporation, where public time and money is involved, officials from the Corporation have to travel either to Kilmainham or to Bray, as the case may be. These matters might all more readily be dealt with in a sitting of the district court in Dún Laoghaire. There are even further confusing incidental consequences of this position. At present, as I say, portion of the area for district court purposes is assigned to the Bray district court area, which is in County Wicklow. In the event of an appeal in matters within that area which come before the Bray district court, the appeal is heard by the circuit court in Wicklow. On the other hand, with adjacent areas, which are all within as close a distance as a mile to two miles from Dún Laoghaire Borough boundary, portion of the area for district court jurisdiction purposes is dealt with in Kilmainham. In that case, of course, an appeal, if it lies, would be heard in Dublin.

The district court clerk for Bray is also the district court clerk for Swords and North County Dublin. He has to travel right through the city and, for practitioners as well as for litigants, this involves not merely confusion but a great deal of inconvenience. It is very difficult to locate the boundaries between the different district court areas in Dún Laoghaire and South County Dublin. At present, Dún Laoghaire Corporation has more than 100 houses in the Sallynoggin area which, though the property of the corporation, because they were erected on land outside the Corporation has more than 100 houses poses, in the County Borough. In South County Dublin, depending on where they happen to be located, the persons involved have to go either to Bray District Court or to Kilmainham. Anyone who is familiar with the geography of the area will realise that this is an unnecessary inconvenience. Indeed, it is so difficult to locate the boundaries of the Dún Laoghaire-Ballybrack area that when a person is involved in proceedings, an inquiry has to go to the district court clerk both in Dublin and in Bray and to the gardaí in both places to ascertain the exact boundary.

This is a matter which should be considered by the Minister. I understand he has power under the 1953 Act to create a new district court area. There is a very strong case for redrawing the boundaries of the whole of the South County Dublin area, including Dún Laoghaire, in this regard. I do not think that the case is argued on the basis that Dún Laoghaire should have a court exclusively for the Dún Laoghaire Borough but should include adjacent areas and the suburbs. Compared with other boroughs which are much smaller, Dún Laoghaire is unique in not having a separate district court. I understand that prior to the establishment of the circuit courts, there was a separate recorders' court for Dún Laoghaire. There is in Dún Laoghaire a district courthouse and the establishment of a separate court would relieve congestion in the Dublin courts, such as Kilmainham and Dundrum, as well as Bray. Up to fairly recent years, the district court used to sit at Shankill, which at least was nearer than some of the places I have mentioned. At present the court in Dún Laoghaire has no appellate jurisdiction to deal with such matters as those coming under section 13 of the Betting Act, 1931, section 271 of the Public Health Act, 1878, section 7 of the Fire Brigade Act, 1940 and a section of the Local Government (No. 2) Act, 1960. If an appeal is brought under any of these provisions, it is necessary to travel to the Dublin District Court, to Bray, or to Dundrum, with resultant hardship and inconvenience as well as time and expense being involved. In regard to cases in the Bray district court area, if an appeal arises from one of these cases, a resident of Killiney, Ballybrack, or Sallynoggin, which is even closer to Dún Laoghaire, has to travel to Wicklow to have the matter dealt with.

Indeed, it is also worthy of note that at present out of 600 ratings in the Ballybrack and Killiney areas, 500 are in the Bray court area, whereas the area itself is within the Dún Laoghaire boundary. I should be glad if the Minister would consider, with as much expedition as is possible in considering these matters, the representations made to him by Dún Laoghaire Borough Corporation. The Corporation have considered the matter carefully and got advice from their law agent and from the technical staff who are involved in different aspects of the matters that come before the court. So far as I am aware, there is a unanimous view expressed in favour of the establishment of a separate district court for the area. In fact, it may well be, in so far as the general convenience of persons involved in these matters is concerned, individual citizens, or other interested bodies, that there should also be a separate circuit court.

The other matter which I wish to raise is one which has already been raised in the course of the debate, the question of vandalism and violence, vandalism in respect of property and violence in respect of offences by individuals or by gangs. I understood from replies which the Minister gave that it was proposed to introduce legislation to deal with offensive weapons such as flick-knives but so far that legislation has not been introduced.

Mr. B. Lenihan

It has been.

Mr. Cosgrave

At least it has not been circulated. I wonder to what extent the Minister's Department and the Garda authorities consider the effect on young persons of incitements to crime and violence as portrayed from time to time on television programmes. I feel that a great deal of the violent attitudes adopted by individuals as well as by gangs is encouraged by the type of programme seen on television from time to time. We cannot influence television programmes from outside the State but some supervision should be exercised, and if possible, information should be compiled, in regard to the extent to which such films are viewed here. It should be ascertained whether those qualified to express an opinion consider that films or shows which display and encourage crimes of violence will incite people to act either in bad taste or otherwise, as was referred to here earlier, and whether these contribute to an attitude which becomes more common if they have an influence on people who are at an impressionable age. That is a matter which is worth investigating. It is one which comes within the responsibility of the Garda as well as of the Minister.

It is right that public tribute should be paid to the manner in which the Garda discharge their duties and responsibilities. The high standard which has characterised the Force, and indeed, in relatively recent times the personal example of courage by an individual garda in Cabinteely, reflects the standard which the public have come to accept as being in the very highest tradition of the Force. As this is the first occasion the Estimate is before us, I should like to express the satisfaction generally felt that a Garda officer with such long and distinguished service as Mr. Carroll has should, towards the end of his career, have been appointed Commissioner. It is a matter which met with general approval both in the Force and amongst those who knew his work as a member of the Force for a long number of years.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

This Vote always presents us with an opportunity of having a full-dress debate on all aspects of the Minister's Department. Many of our citizens may feel that this Department is a second- or third-rate one, but all citizens anxious to live as citizens fully realise its great importance. When a Minister takes over this Department, he is the person responsible to this House and to the Government for seeing that law and order are observed and maintained. It is of the greatest importance in any democracy that the laws passed by Parliament, the code of rules under which our citizens live and work, should be rigidly obeyed. That is why we cannot overestimate the importance of the Department of Justice in our everyday lives. It can be said to the credit of all our Ministers for Justice that they most certainly have devoted all their energies in seeing that law and order are upheld and the laws passed by this free Parliament are rigidly implemented.

This brings me to the Garda Síochána, which has been mentioned by practically all Deputies in the course of this debate. Without doubt, our police force can be described as probably the best police force in any democracy in the world today. It has now reached the height of its training in all aspects of police work. If there is one section of our service we can view with pleasure and pride, it is our police force, from the Commissioner right down to the humblest serving member. But I wonder do all our citizens realise that the purpose of a police force is to protect our lives and property? How many times do we hear our police force being made the subject of unwarranted criticism, perhaps because they enforce our laws rigidly? In this country we have a bad record in relation to respect for those charged with the enforcement of our laws. Probably we do not appreciate our police force in the same way as other countries do, because for so long we were subjected to a police force enforcing laws made by an alien Government. At that time it was popular and patriotic to oppose the police force. But, since we have achieved our own Government, would one not think that after 40 years it is high time our children were taught that the purpose of our police force is not to frighten people, that there is no reason why our police force should be shunned and that members of our police force are not on duty for the purpose of capturing young people for minor offences? In the course of our teaching of civics in the schools, the time has come to break down the barrier of fear between our younger people and the police force. I believe that barrier still exists. Our people should be taught to realise that the members of the Garda are their friends, to help them in difficulty, to assist them with their problems and to see that their lives and property are safeguarded. That is the purpose of a police force.

I am glad to say that at present there is a growing spirit of co-operation between the general public and the police. That growth must be fostered and continued. I would ask the Minister seriously to consider allowing members of the Garda to attend and to express their views at all meetings and functions other than political meetings. I am thinking of such functions as the meetings of town development associations and athletic movements. In the latter the members of the Garda have a most excellent record. They should be encouraged to take their place side by side with the general public and to express their views on matters not alone relating to the discharge of their duties but on all matters they feel would be in the interest of the development and the progress of the areas to which they are assigned. I doubt if there is any regulation to prevent members of the Garda Síochána from participating in such activities, but they should be encouraged, because in the detection of serious crime it is absolutely necessary that the greatest co-operation should exist between the general public and the members of the Garda. I do hope that every effort will be made in the future to try to cultivate greater co-operation between the Garda and the public.

There is inclined to be a wedge driven between the gardaí and the people due to the petty offences like improper parking and bald tyres, which the Garda authorities are obliged to detect. It must be a terrible disappointment to a young energetic member of the Garda who has built his whole future around the idea of being a policeman protecting life and property, seeing that the law is administered honestly and justly, to find that he is obliged to look under the mudguards of cars to see if he can find bald tyres, to parade up and down the various streets examining the registration numbers of cars and then consult his watch to see if they have overstayed their parking time. It is very doubtful if any responsible motorist would be driving around with bald tyres, and I doubt if there are many of our citizens who would deliberately break the parking regulations.

If there were 85,000 on-the-spot parking fines, I venture to say that the great percentage of those cases involved people living in a world of speed and efficiency, who are anxious to do their business quickly and park outside an office for that purpose. I would ask the Minister for Justice, on the occasion of the passing out parades of young members of the Garda, which I presume he attends at Templemore and elsewhere, to advise them to use their discretion and as often as they can to close at least one eye to people who must park for the purpose of discharging their business hastily and efficiently in many districts where no-parking regulations are in operation. Unless it is clear, after a number of warnings, that the parking regulations are being deliberately violated, no fines or prosecutions should be implemented.

I have often wondered if Exchequer finance has reached such a low level that members of the Garda are asked to go out and collect all the money they possibly can for the running of the Department. I doubt very much if that is the position but it looks very much like it. When 85,000 on-the-spot fines have been imposed over a short period, the time has come for an examination of that matter. The time of the Garda officers can be put to much better use. Investigating these petty offences causes embarrassment both to the Garda officer and the owner of the vehicle, and this can easily be the means of cultivating the wrong kind of friendship between the public and the members of the Garda who are doing their best.

The Garda authorities have played their part well in relation to traffic offences. The only fault I can find with the Garda authorities in this regard is that they are not strict enough or rigid enough in dealing with the drunken driver. How often have we pleas for mercy for the drunken driver? I trust that the Garda authorities, with the full support of the Minister for Justice, will leave nothing undone to see that the drunken driver will not only be put off the road but kept off the road for life.

The accident rate in this country has been appalling. The question of speed limits has been raised, with particular reference to the speed limit on the dual carriageway between Dublin and Naas. That is the road on which I drive practically every day of the week. There was no news more welcome than the announcement that there was going to be a speed limit imposed there. It was asking for trouble leaving a speed highway, without any restriction, to people who do not know how to use it, to people who are not educated on the use of speedways, to people who do not understand driving on dual carriageways. I remember on one or two occasions that while driving to Dublin I saw a lady motorist—and they are usually good and careful drivers—who must have been between 75 and 80 years of age. I do not know how she qualified for a licence. She had about 12 cars held up because she was cruising along at between 45 and 50 mph on the wrong side of the dual carriageway, on the wrong side of her right side, if the Minister understands what I mean.

Mr. B. Lenihan

I do.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

I want to assure the Minister and the Garda authorities that the manner in which some intelligent motorists have driven out of the various sideroads on to the dual carriageway makes it hard to understand why there has not been a far higher death rate on the road between Dublin and Naas. The one remedy is the provision of roundabouts or the provision of stop signs. The stop signs are there but people driving out of by-roads do not seem to obey them. I have had experience of seeing cattle, and, on one occasion, horses let loose on the dual carriageway. It is nothing short of a crime that such animals should be allowed to wander on the grass margin of the dual carriageway and anyone who is found to own such livestock deserves the full rigours of the law.

I am glad that that road is now policed to a greater extent and I trust the Minister and the authorities will see that the gardaí who are on patrol will take the most serious view of livestock wandering on the dual carriageway by day or night but particularly by night and the question of imprisonment for the owners of such livestock will be considered. It is all very well until possibly the father of a large family, motoring to or from Dublin through somebody's neglect or carelessness, in a twinkling leaves his large family and widow, perhaps, penniless.

The gardaí have saved many lives through the performance of their traffic duties. I wonder if the general public gives them sufficient appreciation. The part they have played in making people road safety conscious, the manner in which they have lectured in the schools and advised young people on the dangers of the roads are factors that have saved many lives. I trust the Garda activities in that regard will be accelerated and that at each Garda station one or two gardaí will be selected, particularly younger men, to go into the schools and speak to the children, bring them out on the roads during school hours and demonstrate to them road crossing technique and the necessity for road safety precautions and give particular warnings to children who have to cycle to school. One or two road safety lectures per school per year is not sufficient. At least a half hour per month should be spent on this subject in each school by members of the Garda.

When one considers our population and the extent of our cities and towns our crime record is not too bad compared with that of other countries. There has been much criticism of our young people who have been described as vandals, juvenile delinquents and people with no respect for law and order who are deliberately out to damage. I do not think our young people are too bad having regard to the times in which they live. If the older people with commonsense, brains and intelligence are trying to get to the moon we cannot expect too much from the young people. They do their best. We live in a changed world in modern times and one sees the result of the changed world more clearly in cities outside this State.

On the whole, our young people are far better than teenagers in Continental cities. It is impossible for the police to exercise supervision over wild youths if their parents have not controlled them in their homes in their tender years. It is very easy to blame the police for allowing rowdyism and permitting bad behaviour but the people who complain are generally parents who did not do their own duty. One of the modern problems that must be tackled is the problem of making parents aware of their responsibilities to the members of their own families as regards their upbringing as good citizens who will be well behaved and fully recognise the necessity for obedience to the State and to the Force exercising the authority of the State.

Therefore, I would ask the Minister not to be too hard on our young people. Give them a break. There are worse. I have always found a little clap on the back and a word of praise to be better than thumps and hard words. Older people probably expect too much from the young. They expect the old standards and find it rather difficult to live in the atmosphere of modern thinking. Everything has changed. Allowance should be made for that fact. I venture to say that the young people of today, the teenagers who have been the subject of so much criticism, will turn out to be as good as if not better than our own generation and will be able to take their place in the new and modern world just as their fathers and grandfathers took their place in their day.

I would ask the Minister for Justice to ask the Garda authorities to make allowances for youth. Nobody knows the necessity for that better than the younger members of the Force. In the case of first offences by young persons, I have always found that it was better to bring the offenders to the Garda barracks rather than into court. That applies even in the case of a second offence. There they could be given a lecture. We should avoid bringing young persons into court because appearance in court has a demoralising effect on them. After the first or second appearance in court they become so accustomed to it that they find it difficult to avoid breaking the law.

In order to safeguard their future, young offenders should be given a lecture by the Garda authorities with a view to improving their behaviour. Only as an extreme measure should young persons be brought into court. When young persons are brought into court their names are on the register as having appeared as defendants and even though the offences might have been minor in character, they are recorded against them. It should be possible to mould the character of young persons by the exercise of the virtues of charity and understanding, by making allowances and by talking them into being law-abiding citizens. In my experience, when young persons have spent a period in jail they invariably spend a second period there.

During my 25 years experience as a Member of this House I have come across some extraordinary cases involving young persons who found themselves in difficulty. The law was hard on them and I have seen repeated cases in which they were involved getting unfavourable mention in the provincial press and they are frequent visitors to prison. The big responsibility in avoiding that state of affairs rests with the authorities. The Garda authorities should use all the means at their disposal to direct such young persons into a proper way of life.

I have referred to the drunken drivers and I do not propose to make any further reference to them. I wonder if the Minister for Justice has ever asked himself if drinking has become a more serious problem since the granting of facilities for Sunday opening and the extension of hours of drinking. I know that there are fewer prosecutions under the licensing laws. I would have expected that when people could go into a licensed premises and drink at their leisure they would not be inclined to stay so long. No trade deserves a fillip more than the licensed trade does at the moment. I am merely referring to the excessive use of alcohol. In this city and in the provincial towns there is an increase in intemperance which is noticeable not so much amongst young men as amongst young women, which is a matter that will eventually present a very serious problem. I do not set myself up as a political pharisee to lecture on moral standards for boys and girls but if the girls of today who will be the mothers of tomorrow are spending their leisure time in lounge bars, cocktail bars, hotels and licensed premises, may the Lord help the future generation. I suppose that, again, that is a modern trend in the new world in which we live but the licensed trade should use their discretion as to the amount of alcohol served to young persons.

Again, it may be very difficult of operation. There is a great temptation to do business while business is good. Nobody likes to refuse a customer. Somebody has the responsibility of encouraging temperance amongst young persons. Any man who can take a drink is welcome to it and should have it and should be encouraged to have it, if he likes it. It is excessive drinking that is the danger. I often wonder whether the facilities now available under the licensing laws have encouraged excessive drinking. I cannot say. Perhaps the Minister may be in a position to make a comment.

I want to make reference, briefly if I may, to prisons and prison conditions. It must be one of the greatest trials in the life of a free citizen to find himself in jail. I doubt if there can be anything more depressing than for a citizen to lose his freedom and have four grey walls within which he must remain, and bars through which he must peep out, and have to live in accordance with prison conditions.

We must all admit that during the past 20 years certainly, prison conditions in this country have improved. The idea of allowing certain prisoners out to their homes for Christmas is an excellent one, and should be encouraged. I am thinking of longterm prisoners who would give certain undertakings, so that they would not altogether lose touch with the outside world. There should be a relaxation of the regulations governing visits to prisons and, in order that prisoners could be in touch with what was going on in the outside world, they should be allowed to mix with the public on certain occasions, provided, naturally, that they are of good behaviour.

I really feel that more visits to our prisoners should be encouraged. In many instances charitable organisations, visiting committees, and societies such as the Society of St. Vincent de Paul, have played a great part in making prison life a little easier for those who are unfortunate enough to be confined behind the high grey walls of a prison. I ask the Minister to have this matter reviewed to see in what further way the unfortunate people who are behind bars may get the best out of the hard lot in life they have made for themselves. I have always felt great sympathy—most of us have—for those who have to be in prison. I do not think we should look upon them as complete outcasts from society, because but for the Grace of God, we would be there ourselves. They are still human beings.

I will say this. The most difficult life that one could lay out for oneself is the life of a prison attendant or official. I want to join with other Deputies in paying tribute to the Governors of our prisons, and to our prison staffs and officials. They have a very difficult job to perform. Few of us who enjoy our freedom realise the conditions of those people behind the walls of a prison, enforcing discipline and regulations on their fellow men, and very often dealing with persons of a different mental make-up—how trying it is; how difficult it is; and what a hard life it is from early morning until evening. Whatever facilities are sought from time to time by prison Governors, by officers or staffs of our prisons, should be given top priority in the Minister's Department, not only for attention but for favourable action.

I have in my constituency, I suppose, the only long term prison in the State. I have been in that prison as a visitor, and I have seen its cleanliness, its airy atmosphere, its conditions and its recreation rooms. I have seen the ball alley and the parade grounds. I have visited the farm on which the prisoners work. I would be wrong if I did not honestly pay great tribute to all those responsible. The conditions in that prison are as near perfect as any prison conditions could be.

I recall that on one occasion I paid a surprise visit to that prison and was invited to partake of a meal which was being served to the prisoners. I did so, and I found the meal to be of top quality, well cooked and well served—perhaps not altogether as appetising as a meal in the Shelbourne Hotel or the Gresham Hotel—but considering that they are cooking for so many, and have to serve so many, I think the conditions were very favourable. I could find no fault with the quality of the tea they were drinking, the quality of the meat they were eating, and the high standard of the vegetables produced on the prison farm. If there is any such person as a critical citizen, it is I, and I could probably describe myself as one of the most critical of Deputies. If I could have found any fault, I would have been only too happy and too glad to come to this House and say I had discovered a fault. I want to pay the highest possible tribute to the authorities and the officers of that prison, who have discharged their duties in a highly capable and efficient manner.

In relation to prisons, I want to mention two items to the Minister: one in connection with additional paroles, if such can be arranged; and secondly, I wonder is it possible for the Department to embark on the provision of houses as convenient as possible to the prisons for all prison officers. The tendency has been to let them find houses elsewhere, if possible. Just as in the case of the Garda Síochána I think prison officers should be provided by the State with good living accommodation, good housing accommodation. There are no doubt files in the Office of the Department on the standard of repair of prison houses and I would suggest that ample provision be made to ensure that the houses in which these officers live are kept in first-class repair. Frequent inspections should be undertaken to ensure the houses do not fall into disrepair. These prison officers should get top priority from the point of view of housing having regard to the importance of the duties they perform. If there is need for the provision of proper houses for prison officers, will the Minister ensure that these houses are provided forthwith?

With regard to Garda barracks, I think there was a five-year plan at one stage to deal with the provision of new barracks. We have had a good many five-year plans of one kind or another and we have clear evidence that there are today Garda barracks all over the country which can only be described as hovels. They are quite unsuitable as buildings for the purpose of enabling the gardaí to perform their duties. It is many years since I raised the question of the provision of a new barracks at Shannonbridge. That station has not yet been provided. It was to have been provided last year or this year. There has been a plea for a new Garda barracks in Ballybrittas. That has not been provided Throughout the length and breadth of the country there are numbers of barracks in a deplorable state of repair. Why not tackle the problem courageously? Why not build? Why not provide new barracks? There seems to be an extraordinary overlapping of activities. The Board of Works enter into the picture and, when the Board of Works enter into the picture, it takes a long time to complete the canvas. I have often wondered whether the Land Commission or the Board of Works is the biggest body moving the slowest. There are extraordinarily long delays in providing proper barracks. The Minister must realise that the old timers, with great respect, have retired and the younger members expect at least decent barracks in which to work. They are not prepared to tolerate the conditions under which those who preceded them carried out their duties. I appeal to the Minister to make a survey. I do not know at what rate barracks are going up.

Mr. B. Lenihan

Six a year.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

That is not enough. I could do with those six in my own constituency. There are some deplorable barracks in it. We would want to aim at at least 20 per year in order to solve the problem. I suppose it is hard to expect the Government to build Garda barracks when the ordinary people cannot get houses in which to live. We will not deal with that now; we will take it up with another Minister on another debate. What is the policy of the Government in relation to Garda barracks? Is it still the policy to close down certain stations and cut down on numbers? If it is the policy, then I appeal to the Minister to change it forthwith. Cutting down on numbers is penny wise and pound foolish. Closing down stations may have been part of an economy drive but the only result was to deprive the people of the services they should have in their areas. The squad car has never been a satisfactory substitute for the Garda barracks. There should be no further closing down of stations and no further reduction in numbers.

With regard to country districts, some Garda barracks close down at night and for a certain period during the day. Usually there is a postcard stuck on the door informing people as to where to find the nearest garda. He is usually at the place stated. The situation might not be altogether happy if there were a serious accident, a fire, a criminal to be caught, and so on. There should be some definite understanding in every area as to how the gardaí can be contacted immediately. The ordinary practice is to run to the sergeant's house. He may be off duty. A stranger might not know where he lived. I understand that at nighttime in certain districts it is very difficult to contact the Garda. In my own area they are on duty 24 hours of the day. I suppose in an emergency the best thing to do would be to phone headquarters. The telephone number should be displayed publicly. Every Garda barracks should be on the telephone the full 24 hours of every day. I do not say a garda should stay at the end of the telephone all the time, but there should be some means of getting into contact with the Garda when they are wanted in a hurry. When contact is made, there is a gratifying speed and efficiency, but the trouble is that strangers might have difficulty in contacting the Garda in an emergency. I must confess that if I were asked the telephone number of the Garda barracks in my own town, I would not be able to give it. If I wanted to get the guards in a hurry, I would not be able to telephone for them. The telephone number of every Garda barracks should be written up on the barracks with a notice as to where to contact them when closed so that the general public will know exactly where and who to contact during the hours on which the Garda barracks is closed.

With regard to the driver who loses his licence, the Minister for Justice has now no responsibility. It is a matter for the courts. I think that is a very good thing but we must take the case of a driver who loses his licence in the courts and who wants to appeal and has not got the funds at his disposal to do so. I often wondered in what way the Department of Justice might be able to help certain people who lose their driving licences and are not in a financial position to appeal. I cannot say if an appeal is very expensive. I do not know what the cost of an appeal is but I remember that two of my constituents lost their driving licences. I asked them if they had appealed to the court and they said that the cost was prohibitive, that they were in part-time employment and could not possibly do so.

Is there any means by which in a special case of this kind if the powers-that-be are satisfied that it would be a hardship on a citizen to finance an appeal that they could be helped? Of course, the State Solicitor would naturally be acting for the State but I feel that there should be some legal assistance available for people whose circumstances do not permit them to have their cases properly heard in our courts. It is a terrible state of affairs that a citizen, who believes he has a good case in law and wants to have the benefit of the laws of this country, because he is financially embarrassed cannot avail of the justice that the courts of this country may or may not have for him. Financial facilities should be made available for people in cases of that kind.

There is a great spirit of co-operation between the Department of Justice and the Incorporated Law Society. That great spirit of co-operation which is so desirable is, I understand, flourishing. May I say that this is not the only professional body with which there is co-operation? The organisation of which I happen to be President this year, the Irish Auctioneers and Estate Agents Association, have always found the Department of Justice anxious, able and willing to co-operate and we appreciate that spirit of co-operation. Would I be trespassing too severely on the generosity of the Minister in relation to his high standing with the Incorporated Law Society if I suggested that the Incorporated Law Society might consider in what way the legal members of the profession might be able to assist in the cases to which I have referred of appeals to the courts by people who cannot afford to pay their own expenses? Of course, the reply the Minister will probably give to that is to ask whether any member of the auctioneers' profession would be prepared to work for nothing. I doubt if they would. Perhaps, it might not be fair to put it to the legal profession but I think that where a person wants to avail of the courts and cannot do so because he has not got the money, somebody should endeavour to foot the bill to assist that man to get the benefit of the law.

May I ask the Minister if he holds conferences with the Garda authorities and with representatives of the local authorities in relation to speed limits and if such conferences are frequently held? I am aware that representatives from the Custom House usually attend such conferences but I understand that speed limits are defined and granted only on the recommendation of the Garda authorities. I cannot for the life of me understand, and I have a Parliamentary Question down for tomorrow on it, why the speed limit was removed by the Garda authorities from the village of Ballybrittas on the main Dublin-Cork road where there is a high hill in the village, a junction road right and a junction road left and motorists passing on many occasions at between 80 and 100 miles per hour. One of these nights two cars will meet on the top of the hill and then the speed limit will be restored when it is too late.

Laois County Council have unanimously made repeated requests that the speed limit be restored but they have been ignored. As a last resort, I am raising this for the purpose of focussing the attention of the Minister for Justice on it so that he will ask the Garda authorities to restore the speed limit before there is a serious accident. God knows somebody's life may be saved. I am very friendly with the people who live on both sides of the hill and I have heard their horrifying expressions of opinion of the speed of the traffic, the density of the traffic and the dangers. It is a real crossroads and beyond all doubt there is imminent danger of very serious and fatal consequences unless the speed limit is restored. I ask for every co-operation from the Minister for Justice in that regard.

Censorship of books comes within the ambit of the Minister for Justice. I presume censorship of films comes within his ambit. That has prompted me to raise the question of the new television film which will be on view. May I ask the Minister if all films coming into this country are subject to the certificate of the film censor? I presume that all films for showing on television are likewise subject to certificate of the film censor. I am not quite sure about this. Are all films for viewing on television subject to certification by the film censor?

Mr. B. Lenihan

No.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

May I ask the Minister who certifies the films for television?

Mr. B. Lenihan

They have an internal system of their own.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

They are not subject to any censorship?

Mr. B. Lenihan

They are, but they are not subject to our public film censorship.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

Is that a good thing?

Mr. B. Lenihan

It is, I suppose, a debatable matter.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

I think the Minister should talk to somebody about this. When we go to a cinema to see a film we see one which must pass the censor. Our censorship of films is of a very high standard. I doubt if there have been any films on the screen in this country which could be considered in any way objectionable to any section of the community. It is rather extraordinary that films can be imported and put on view on television without any censorship. I would ask the Minister to look seriously into this matter so that films for television viewing would be at least subject to the Films Censorship Board. I do not know if this is something original or if the Minister had it before——

Mr. B. Lenihan

Since the establishment of the RTE Authority, it has been in their province to deal with whatever show they put on. The standard corresponds with the public standard and there is informal consultation between the film censor and the Television Authority on television censorship.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

Our film censorship do not do it in advance?

Mr. B. Lenihan

No.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

Is the Minister quite satisfied with it, once the film passes the Telefís Éireann censorship?

Mr. B. Lenihan

Yes.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

There is definitely some form of censorship there.

Mr. B. Lenihan

Yes. There is liaison there. There is internal censorship which conforms generally with the code of the film censorship.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

Maybe the Minister in his reply would let us have a little more information on that.

Mr. S. Dunne

Is there a board?

Mr. B. Lenihan

No. It is purely internal administration.

Mr. S. Dunne

Is it from the administration itself?

Mr. B. Lenihan

Yes.

Acting Chairman (Mr. James Tully)

This is hardly a matter for this debate.

Mr. S. Dunne

It is a matter of public morals.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

The reason I raise this matter is that if we have censorship of films for the screen, I feel we should have censorship of films for television viewing. I accept the Minister's word that there is some form of censorship. I cannot say whether it is a highly qualified one or not but perhaps the Minister will tell us more about it.

Acting Chairman

This is for a different Minister.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

I accept your ruling and I also accept the Minister's word that there is some form of censorship.

Mr. B. Lenihan

They follow the same yardstick as is followed by the Film Censor.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

Has the Minister any responsibility at all?

Mr. B. Lenihan

No.

Acting Chairman

This is not a matter for this Minister.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

I accept your ruling and I accept the Minister's word. We will talk about it to another Minister at another time. I should very much like to hear from the Minister if inquiries are still proceeding in his Department in relation to communistic activities?

Mr. B. Lenihan

If activities are subversive, it may be taken that they are given constant attention — that is all I can say.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

It is generally reported in high places that there is in this country a certain amount of communist growth and development and that a number of people within the State are engaged in such activity. The time has come when the authorities ought to view very seriously and with very grave concern the activities of persons, aliens or otherwise, who are known to be, or have been, associated with the communist movement outside the shores of this country.

Mr. S. Dunne

Would that include members of the existing Seanad?

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

I would not know that.

Mr. S. Dunne

There is one who had very close connection with the communist movement outside this country and was an emissary to Russia, if I make no mistake.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

I cannot answer for that but I want to say that this matter is the cause of concern and I wonder if the Minister is interesting himself sufficiently to see that the activities of any such persons in the State are watched closely, that their contacts are watched and that they will not be allowed to disrupt harmony, by engaging in the activities in which they were engaged in actively before they commenced operating in this country.

Mr. S. Dunne

Deputy P.J. Burke was in East Berlin.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

Deputy Burke would be a very harmless man.

Mr. P.J. Burke

So was Deputy Dunne.

Mr. Coughlan

You gave him your blessing.

Acting Chairman

Deputy Flanagan should be allowed to proceed.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

I am not at all satisfied that the Department of Justice are doing their job in relation to the curtailment of the activities of certain people in the State who are known to have communist associates. If action is not taken there is, most undoubtedly, an imminent danger of a growth in this country on communistic lines. Everybody knows that communism flourishes on distress, on unsound economic conditions, on unemployment, on strikes, on hard times and on bad housing conditions. This country is ripe at the moment for certain people to engage in communistic activities. I hope the Minister for Justice has issued most definite instructions to the police authorities to keep close tabs on such people and to see that communistic activities are curtailed to the fullest possible extent in this country.

The same refers to transport, although the Minister for Justice has no responsibility there but has responsibility for the coming and going of aliens. I feel there ought to be more vigilance on the part of the authorities in relation to aliens visiting this country, in relation to their activities when they get here and also in relation to their associates, whom I believe are supplying them with passports. There are a number of files I know in the Department of Justice in relation to this. Many of them are on the long finger.

Mr. B. Lenihan

This is the first I heard of that.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

There are at least two. The Minister knows about one in which a certain Irish passport found abroad has been inquired into. The Minister also knows that there is another file in connection with another gentleman who frequently files over here and who was a suspect in connection with the flowing up of Nelson Pillar. He is a French gentleman. The activities of all those people and the activities of people coming over here posing as businessmen should be inquired into. This country can be a happy hunting-ground for people of doubtful character who come over here for such purposes. I hope the Garda authorities and the Department of Justice are very much alive to the activities of such people.

May I conclude on this note? We have a Laois man as Commissioner of the Garda Síochána. It is very seldom that a Laoisman gets to the top. This is an occasion on which the Garda Commissioner, a proud son of Country Laois, deserves to be congratulated on his appointment. He has served as an admirable member of the Garda all his life. This must be a great encouragement to the members of the force. I feel that the State could not possibly have a more capable, a more efficient or a more brilliant policeman than the present Commissioner of the Garda Síochána. I am sure that his life of service in the force will be a model to all the young men who are now serving in the force in which he played an honoured part in bringing to its present strength.

Mr. P.J. Burke

I am very pleased with the very honourable speech of the last Deputy. The Minister for Justice has been doing a very good job since his appointment. He has had to go through a very critical period and I must say he handled the situation admirably.

Having said that, I should like to make some observations. I am glad that the guards in Dublin have been so successful in protecting the citizens on the streets. I take this opportunity to thank the Commissioner and the guards for the way they have handled the problem to which I refer. I speak about the blackguard who would take out a knife, a razor blade or a steel comb to injure his fellow man. Youngsters coming from dances are met by louts who beat them up. The Minister should put more men in plain clothes to deal with this type of crime. I want to ensure that in the city of Dublin, which I have the honour to represent, everybody can walk the streets without interference.

It is a terrible crime when a rascal can come along and follow a decent boy, man or woman and use a chain, knife or blade on any occasion. If the Minister could take steps to eliminate that type of crime he will have my backing and the backing of my Party. This is the worst type of crime. If those thugs do not like the colour of a boy's hair they beat him up. I know of a few boys who had to get psychiatric treatment as a result of this conduct.

The guards have been doing their best and anything the Minister, the Commissioner and the Department of Justice can do, by way of putting men in plain clothes, to deal with these people will be welcome. We had plain clothes men in the Gardai and had they been paid £5,000 a year it would not be enough. I do not want to refer to particular men here. But during the time we had the teddy boys and the animal gangs those men did such excellent work that if it were possible to have given them special allowances they deserved it. The democratic way of life ensures that you are free to walk the streets of your own city without interference.

During my travels in other countries I made inquiries as to how this problem is dealt with. We are reasonably free of crime here, but we have waves of it now and again. I ask my colleague to deal strongly with any such situation, not to send these criminals to jail and pet them, but put them out to do some work on the side of a mountain, as their purpose in life seems to be to go out and destroy their fellow men with knives and other weapons and wreak destruction on society as a whole.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

The cat should be brought back for them.

Mr. P.J. Burke

A few months ago I saw an unfortunate boy running home injured. Luckily a man found the criminal who did the job. This unfortunate boy was months and months before he could sleep except under sedation. Anything the Minister can do in this regard will have the blessing of the country as a whole.

I had an experience of teddy boys at a dance a few months ago. It was a charity dance held in the suburbs of Dublin. There was only one guard in the barracks, but luckily there were a few good decent men in the place who helped to handle the situation quietly. I shall never forget it. Three or four people were injoured, but the teddy boys were brought to court afterwards. I ask the Minister to consider this seriously.

I have been witness to a girl and boy rendered unconscious near my own home in Santry. They were on a motor bicycle but I do not know how fast they were travelling. It happened on the Sunday of the big match in Dublin and it happened on the straight road. They came through a gateway and the girl was rendered unconsious. This girl was working in a nice job in Dublin and because she was not wearing a helmet she is unconscious and will remain so for some time. Indeed, it is an even bet whether she will ever be well again. The boy had his two legs broken. I refer to this because young boys and girls should be protected in their own interests. I do not want to interfere with the rights of citizens but people should at least wear a hamlet on a motor bicycle. Many a person, old and young has been killed as a result of such negligence. I think the Minister should warn people in this regard.

I should like to refer to another type who are dangerous to themselves and other road users. Periodically you will see cyclists on a dark road without a light. They have no regard for themselves or anybody else. It is shocking. I was coming from Limerick on Sunday——

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

The Deputy should not have been down there.

Mr. P.J. Burke

—— and saw an old man setting out at 10 o'clock at night riding a bicycle without any light on it. That is just asking for trouble. He might as well sign his own death warrant or anybody else's, for that matter, doing that sort of thing today with all the traffic on the roads. If people walking at night, especially in black clothes on a wet night, only wore some type of white belt round their waist or an armlet, even a handkerchief, this would protect them somewhat. On the road on which I live, which runs from the city to Drogheda, there are more fatal accidents than on any other road in Ireland. Only last Sunday a poor man was fatally injured on that road. I am pointing out these things for the protection of the citizens as a whole. We should try to do something to save life, if at all possible.

My colleague, Deputy O. J. Flanagan, spoke of drunkenness. The most extraordinary thing about this is that the reports from the various insurance companies claim that the biggest percentage of accidents happen with young people under 25 years of age. Everything in this country is inclined to be put down to drink. If a man collapses at the wheel of a car, it is said he was drunk; if he is a diabetic, it is said, he is drunk. I know, as Deputy O.J. Flanagan said, that there are some people who do not know when to stop drinking, but, thank God, there are very few of them. In our city people drink moderately. There might be the odd person who would take a little too much but usually when people have taken too much drink they do not risk driving themselves from a party, dinner or a wedding. They will get somebody else to drive them or use a taxi. People are usually very careful.

I have found, from experience, that a number of accidents have happened as a result of bad manners on the road, people who want to get out no matter what happens. They will not have any consideration for their fellow drivers and, in trying to pass them out, will nearly cut across a fence. While various Ministers have appealed for cooperation and good manners on the road, there are still the odd few who are responsible for many accidents. A number of accidents have happened on busy roads where there might be a number of cars in a line. One fellow wants to pass them all out. He is caught on a turn and is responsible for killing one or two people and, possibly himself too.

In this matter of road manners we are dealing with human nature and the only thing possible is to continue making appeals to people. Nobody knows when he will be involved in an accident or how it will happen. I would not agree that most accidents are the result of people having too much drink. I would totally disagree with that, because the statistics are there from the insurance companies and they must know their job fairly well. The majority of accidents seem to happen with young drivers. We were all young once but most young drivers are inclined to speed unnecessarily.

I want to defend here the decent women of Dublin. Deputy O.J. Flanagan said the women were drinking in the bars. In the lounge bars today, both in the city and county of Dublin, wives accompany their husbands, which they did not do, say, 20 years ago. It is good protection on such occasions for a man to have his wife with him. The wife will not allow him to take too much drink. I do not see any harm at all in doing that. It is a social habit and one which we have to accept. It is better to see that happen than have a man going out drinking leaving his wife behind him. Those are my observations and you will see the odd husband or wife who will not be drinking at all. It is merely a social habit and a large number of people who go into lounge bars do so merely or a chat. It is good both for mind and body to get out of the house now and again, especially for the housewife.

There is another matter to which I want to refer — our courthouses, which I are the responsibility of the local authorities. There should be some coordinating body between the Board of Works, the local authorities and the Department of Justice to deal with some of the courthouses, which are really a disgrace to the country, especially in towns competing for the Tidy Towns Competition, where the old courthouse is an eyesore. It is supposed to be the place in which we administer justice, but it should at least be bright and airy and in keeping with the times.

Deputy O.J. Flanagan referred in his last statement to a few of the agnostics at large in this city. Of course, we always had them here but, as far as we are concerned, they will never get anywhere. Some of them have come out in the open and made reparation. However, I have full confidence in the people of Ireland. Those people to whom I have referred will not be allowed get anywhere. On occasion they have flown their banner but have found the Irish people rejected them. They have stood as public representatives in this city under the banner of communism but were rejected by the people of Dublin. While there may be a few agnostics trying to create all the trouble they can on any bandwagon, to embarrass the Government or any democratic Party standing for law and order. I believe they will not get very far. They will climb on any bandwagon. If it is not Vietnam, it will be something else. I travelled in communist countries as a representative of our country on a delegation. Of course, my passport protected me. I did not see very much except what I might have observed walking along the streets. I saw the Berlin Wall, constructed to keep the people in lest they should escape to West Berlin and to freedom. These are the things we have got to consider.

I want to refer to another matter with which the gardaí have had to deal here. I refer to those people who go to the American Embassy and embarrass the gardaí, the Minister and everybody else and who try to interfere with a friendly nation. That friendly nation is America and I pull no punches in saying that had Abraham Lincoln not won the Civil War in America there would be very little freedom in Western Europe today. As a result of that war, all the States of America became one powerful country.

They must have a reason for what they are doing in the East. If it were not for them there would be very little freedom in Europe today and we would not have the opportunity of coming in here to say what we feel like saying in Dáil Éireann or outside it. I am sorry anything has happened to interfere with the friendly relations we have with that great country. I shall not try to judge what they are doing in the East. They have a reason for doing it. Rather do I blame the people here who try to paint us in colours other than that of a neutral country. Those people try to tell us they are the saviours of the world, with their flagwaving and their disruption of the ordinary life of this nation. Men died to give us our freedom. Men died so that we might have freedom to represent the nation in this Assembly and we as public representatives will be always prepared to reject the outlook of such people.

To conclude, I wish again to compliment the Minister both as a member of the Government and as an administrator. The spirit of charity is part of his make up. He has been kind to people who may not have deserved it but his kindness and charity will pay in the end. However, I suggest that as far as the other people to whom I have referred are concerned, firmness should be the keynote.

Mr. Mullen

I have a few suggestions and inquiries to make and I shall do so in the knowledge that the Minister is amenable to suggestion and inquiry. In his opening statement he referred to the Adoption Board. Undoubtedly, the Board are doing a good and desirable job but I have been asked if something could not be done to speed up the conclusion of applications made by couples to adopt children. The Minister has told us there has been a considerable amount of delay from the time a couple obtain a child in the first instance until they are given the final clearance. I have heard it said that people in such circumstances find themselves troubled by nerves, the wife and husband beginning to worry because they have become attached to the child and are afraid they will lose it. In all such instances the procedure should be speeded up when it appears obvious to the people who make the visitations that the homes concerned are good homes and that the adoptive parents are entitled to be approved. I make that point because I have been asked to draw it to the Minister's attention.

During this afternoon's debate traffic and its effect on people was mentioned. Both the Minister for Justice and the Minister for Social Welfare are concerned with this problem but who exactly is responsible for insisting on the proper lighting of vehicles? In the final analysis, the Garda Síochána are held to be responsible. I suggest that not only the number plate at the rear of a car be lighted but that it is imperative the number plate at the front should also be lighted. Likewise, I suggest it should be arranged that "Stop" signs and "No Entry" signs should be luminous. This is very necessary. Furthermore, I suggest there should be a better system of lighting pedestrian crossings.

It may be said this is not strictly a matter for the Minister for Justice but offences in relation to these matters are pursued and handled by the Garda. In Dublin, particularly the main traffic points in O'Connell Street, Grafton Street, But Bridge and other points, anybody who takes the trouble can see how difficult it is for a pedestrian to cross. I hope the Minister will try to improve this situation.

As the Minister mentioned in his statement, the system of on-the-spot fines is operated by the Garda Síochána. In the near future this work will be done by a special set of people and this may allow the Garda to engage in more useful work, in patrol and other duties. It is wrong to have a situation in which mature men are being utilised for this purpose. Some gardaí have not time to do anything else than to issue on-the-spot fines. Last year, 85,000 fines were imposed in this manner and these fines would not have been necessary in the first place if it were not for the absence of proper parking facilities. It is ironical that while so many gardaí are engaged in this duty, there are accidents each day at the city's main traffic points and something should be done to prevent them, particularly at Butt Bridge.

Another matter that merits special consideration is the manner in which bus routes are being changed, buses being allowed to go through certain roads which are not suitable for them. In my constituency a bus has been diverted because it was decided by CIE, in conjunction with the Traffic Section of the Department, to change the terminus. It now goes along a narrow road. Representations by way of petition have been made by the people but they do not seem to have had any effect once the decision had been made by the Garda and CIE. Must we wait until some child is killed on the way to school or during the day before action is taken? It is wrong for a bus to be allowed to reverse in a narrow road in a built-up area. Apart from its highly-dangerous nature, it has a serious effect on roads which have not been built to take bus traffic.

In the North Circular Road area of Dublin it has been decided to bring a bus in through a group of flats, in the Infirmary Road vicinity. A child was killed there last year. Petitions followed but still the bus goes through.

Another thing I should like the Minister to consider specially is the 30 miles per hour speed limit inside the city confines. The Garda are responsible for seeing that the regulation is carried out. It is a proper regulation but an insufficient number of people realise there is such a limit. This is so because of the siting of signs coming into the city. It is about time something was done about that.

We hear a lot of talk about the courts, about decisions in the courts and about old-fashioned courthouses. I fully agree with that as it applies to the Bridewell in Dublin. The time has come to brighten up that place. It is most depressing to go into it. The acoustics are absolutely horrible. I often feel for the unfortunate person in the dock who must be wondering what is happening and must wait until he is told by his defending solicitor how he stands.

What other people have said about courthouses postulates the importance of modernising courthouses but we must also consider the need to modernise the thought of the people who use courthouses. Some method will have to be found to bring some of our ladies and gentlemen up to date with modern trends and with modern behaviour. Quite recently, the Cabra Tenants' Association found it necessary to complain about the references of a district justice to the Cabra area. Prior to that, it was Finglas. These gentlemen and others make no reference to the "toney" areas but appear to consider that everything that is wrong emanates from the working-class districts. They appear to expect that crime emanates solely from what are called working-class areas. There is no mention of crime emanating from Rathgar and other so-called "grand" areas.

The one thing each and every person is asking for is respect. A man does not wish to be singled out as living in an area which is considered by the Bench as one from which vandals and criminals come. That is what I mean when I talk about modernising the thought of the people in the courts.

Another member of the Bench — I shall not name him — took it out of a young man who had a slight accident on a very frosty day. The justice flung the book at the young man. The explanation, in the end, was that the justice had "a thing against youth". What a thing to say. If it had been an older person it would have been OK. I saw a similar happening in the High Court. A case was nearly thrown out because of the answers given by a poor unfortunate working-class wife who answered the questions as she thought she should. The justice or judge, or whatever he is called, became so annoyed — whatever happened to him in the morning before he came into court, I do not know — that he attempted to throw out the case. I think Deputy O'Higgins knows what I am talking about in this connection. That sort of thing is not good enough.

It is important that our people should have confidence in the courts. It is important that they should feel they will get justice when they go to court. It is important that they should not feel they will start off handicapped because of where they come from. This is becoming fairly evident. I do not suggest for one moment that a judge or justice should be told how to sentence a person or how to finalise a matter but I do suggest that he should have manners.

Prisons and the improvements that have been made in prison life have been referred to. I go along with all that has been said, including what the Minister has said about the improvement in prison life. It is a great thing that the temporary day release has proved such a success. There cannot be enough of this type of thing. People are not put in jail because they will be criminals all their life. The purpose is to cure them. Whatever means of rehabilitation is possible in respect of prisons should be undertaken.

There is a great need to increase the welfare staff in Mountjoy prison. To my knowledge, there is only one welfare officer there and he is doing a highly commendable job. If we take seriously the office of a prison welfare officer we should set up a proper system of welfare within the prison system. I would ask the Minister to look into the wages and conditions, workwise, afforded prison officers. There have been many improvements in the outside world. There, again, prison officers are found to do a very useful and worthwhile job. They deserve great praise but praise in words is not sufficient; an improvement in wages and conditions is necessary.

Sometimes it is found necessary to put young people away but I feel that, in certain circumstances, there should be special consideration. Take the case of a boy who is put away for not going to school. May be he is the eldest of a family of ten children and the father is not able to work. I know an exact case in point. The reason the boy was not attending school was that he was out working, before he was of age to do so, in view of the family circumstances.

Mr. B. Lenihan

I should like the particulars of that case.

Mr. Mullen

I shall send them to the Minister. My colleague, Deputy Seán Dunne, referred to drugs and their control. I do not wish to raise any scare about them: perhaps there are drugs and drugs. In my capacity as a trade union official, it was said to me a short while ago that there are tablets going around a certain factory that are for the purpose of "giving energy". That is rather suspicious. I am inclined to think that it is too easy to obtain such energy-giving tablets. I know the Minister will put down his foot whenever he discovers that such a thing is happening.

As Deputy Flanagan said, we are living in a modern world. Whenever we pick up the daily papers, particularly the English ones, we read of drug orgies in America and in Britain. Let us hope we shall not ever read of such a thing happening in our country: we hear rumours of it. My concern is that we Irish tend to copy what other fellows do. That being so, is the Minister satisfied that adequate precautions are taken to ensure that injurious drugs are not easily obtainable in this country?

I shall end by referring to a matter raised by Deputy Seán Dunne and followed up by Deputy Flanagan — drinking. Has the Minister any intention of revising the licensing laws? I ask this question in the light of the fact that our licensing laws are very much out of line with those, for example, of Common Market countries. I should also like to know from the Minister whether he considers that the time has come for allowing restaurants which have wine licences to have full licences, having regard to the development which has taken place in some public-houses which used to sell only drink and which now sell food. It is reasonable to submit that where publicans feel entitled to sell a bowl of soup or a snack, in addition to selling drink, they are not entitled to have a monopoly and surely ways and means could be found to have well-regulated restaurants——

Mr. B. Lenihan

Check that with the bartenders' union.

Mr. Mullen

I am quite safe on this because we have bar men and women in our union. There is no monopoly in this business. It seems unfair to have this situation in which publicans have this great advantage compared with those who run restaurants, who give good employment and help the tourist trade, but who are frightened out of their wits to sell wine after hours. I should like the Minister to look into this matter. If he is contemplating any changes in the existing licensing laws, I should like to ask him if he would not agree that there is no demand for the 4 p.m. opening on Sundays. This view is shared by publicans and by many people who drink. It is a dead time, as, for example, the various sports fixtures are on at that time and it would be much more appropriate to have the opening at 6 p.m.

Mr. T.F. O'Higgins

I should like to join with other Deputies who looked for reassurance in regard to this matter of drugs and the danger of drug taking. Quite frankly, it is a problem that horrifies me and it horrifies anyone concerned with children who are growing up and who have young people going into the world. I am sure the Minister is aware that from time to time there are rumours — not confined to Dublin city — suggesting that this situation may exist. I hope that these rumours are exaggerated but I should like to urge that the greatest possible supervision and care be taken in relation to the whole matter of drugs. I should like to know whether our laws in that regard are satisfactory at the moment. Do they need supervision themselves or do they need tightening up? Have we got, in the manner in which the Guards are organised, a sufficient number of gardaí watching this particular problem? I will say nothing more because I agree with Deputy Mullen that there is a danger, if one talks too much about a matter of this kind, that one may exaggerate something which perhaps may not be too great a danger at the moment. However, I hope the Minister will bear it in mind.

There have been references by various Deputies to the number of accidents we have had on our roads and while the Minister is not directly responsible for the various road safety measures and signs, speed limits and so on, he has on behalf of the Garda a responsibility for the enforcement of many regulations. I suppose every Deputy, and perhaps every member of the public, has his own pet theory as to what is the most likely and the greatest cause of accidents. I should like to join in that popular pastime by suggesting that sooner or later in relation to our roads, we may have to have regard to the colours of cars which we permit. We have many miles of roads, generally of grey or black colour, and many accidents investigated in our courts are found to be due to the fact that a grey or black-coloured car was not observed immediately prior to the impact. This is particularly true with the colour grey and it is to an extent true with darker colours. One suggestion that is worth considering is having a look at the colours which we permit in cars because obviously there is some safety factors involved there.

The only matter I want to refer to — and I do so because it was raised by Deputy de Valera, in the course of the debate last week, when he posed a question and then answered it — is in regard to civil juries. He asked whether civil juries in our courts should be retained or not and then proceeded to give his view that they should not. This is a matter that should be discussed from time to time. Since it was raised by Deputy de Valera, I should like to express my views and to give some arguments why, in this country above all, we should hold fast to our system of civil juries. I believe, and I have seen this over many years of practice, that the retention of civil juries is essential in the administration of justice.

It is frequently overlooked, but the fact should be asserted from time to time, that most of the litigants in our courts, most of the people who complain of wrongs caused, of being injured or of their rights being infringed in one way or another, are poor people, people whose rights are very valuable to them. Most of our litigants who sue as plaintiffs in our courts have no organisation to speak for them, to point out on their behalf how essential the retention of our jury system is. On the other hand, most of the litigants who appear as defendants in our courts have ready to them an association of bodies powerfully to put forward the point of view that civil juries should be abolished.

But, if we look at the facts, it is fair to say, first, that juries have been preferred consistently over the years by litigants in all courts. Under the Rules of Court at the moment, and for many years back, a person who brings an action at the High Court can select whether to have it tried by a judge or by a judge and jury. In relation to negligence actions and many other Common Law actions, that has been the position for 60 or 70 years. One would have to search very far, indeed, to find examples of instances in which trial by judge alone was preferred. That is indicative of the fact that most people, in relation to a question of fact and in relation to the assessment of the credibility or otherwise of witnesses, prefer the judgment and view of 12 men to that of a single individual.

I am surprised to hear Deputy Vivion de Valera saying that judges trained in the law would be better judges of the credibility of a particular witness. That may or may not be That is one of the accidents of Providence. It depends on many things that have nothing to do with legal training. Indeed, most judges would themselves far prefer to have the assessment of a jury on a question of fact than having the responsibility themselves as fallible beings, as one fallible person, whether a particular witness is telling the truth or not. We have in this country, comparativily speaking, a small number of judges. We have not the wide range of judges available in other countries. Our judges here are comparatively few. Were our Common Law actions to be tried by individual judges, some three or four in number, I can imagine trends and habits and well-known individual views becoming far too prominent in our courts. Where you have, as you have in this country, necessarily a small bench, the mixing into the administration of justice in the courts of outside people is absolutely essential, much more essential than it is in other countries with a larger Judiciary.

It is also often forgotten that the cases tried by juries here — it evolved gradually but it is a very wise and useful development — generally relate to what is regarded as being a reasonable or unreasonable standard of care in particular circumstances. That is something about which one can never have and should never have a fixed and watertight view. What may have been regarded as reasonable ten years ago might be regarded as utterly unreasonable now.

The development of the law of negligence and nuisance and many other aspects of the Common Law essentially depends on the current, topical views expressed from time to time by lay people selected at random for jury service. It is that which gives in relation to the administration of law the change factors, the process under which standards are kept in touch and in tune with changing views and changing circumstances. If you have what we have never had here, our Common Law and law of negligence administered solely by judges, then you would find very quickly — it would be no fault of the judge; it would be inevitable — that the thing would become atrophied, watertight, rigidly removed from the developing circumstances of our society. That process might not be so apparent where there is a large number of judges and where change in judicial appointments is more rapid than it is here. But in a small country with a few judges we could not afford to have it.

Here also — and this factor should not be forgotten — generally speaking those who serve on civil juries rather like doing it. Ordinary people, ordinary voters and citizens, do not often in this country have the opportunity of sharing in one of the most important processes of the State. Far too frequently our consistutional institutions and organs of State are removed from the ordinary life of ordinary people. For that reason it is very valuable that citizens should participate in the actual administration of justice. It brings home to them — I know this from many discussions with people who have served on juries — that these courts here are the people's courts and that it is the justice not of any crowned head or of any monarch that is being administered, but the people's justice in the people's court with the people themselves having a say in the decision. That again, in view of our particular history, is of the utmost importance to our people.

I make these points because frequently views are expressed in debates here which go unchallenged. The impression is created that a particular point of view may command wider respect than, in fact, it does. It is for that reason I have said what I did say in reply to the view expressed by Deputy Vivion de Valera. I may add that the view which I expressed represents, very largely speaking, the view of the vast majority of practitioners in our courts, both those who practice at the bar and those who practice as solicitors. The vast majority having actual experience prefer the system under which matters of fact in Common Law cases are reserved for decision by a random jury called for that particular purpose. I am not saying there are not things that require to be done in relation to the jury system. I appreciate that certain steps should be taken to deal with complaints of one kind or another which largely do not concern me. I am merely concerned with the retention of the jury system as a matter of principle. I hope we shall never see any Minister for Justice abolishing something which has worked so well here merely because it has become popular in certain circles to say: away with it.

Sir Anthony Esmonde

This debate has ranged very largely around the the question of road safety. That has been highlighted by the recent tragedies that have occurred on this stretch of road in the vicinity of Naas. Originally when this road was being constructed I assume there must have been a certain amount of forethought and discussion among the different Departments concerned, one of which would be that of the Minister for Justice. I assume that some scheme relating to traffic must have been worked out and that there must have been some small forethought in that direction unless everybody had stopped thinking altogether.

As I can see it, this road is more or less a replica of the autobahn system which I have no doubt the Minister has had an opportunity of studying in European countries the same as I have had. A similar system exists in the United Kingdom, though I personally have not had as much experience of that; I prefer to travel by train there when there are no guards' strikes on. However, when they constructed these roads in Europe and when they conceived the idea of permitting people to travel as fast as possible, they totally abolished crossroads. It is very hard in Europe today to find a crossroad, and you certainly will not find one on a main road of any sort.

They abolished crossroads in two simple ways: on every autobahn I have seen they have what is known as a drive-in. People drive into the road at a slant instead of coming in at a right-angle. That in itself ensures that they have a perfect preview of conditions when coming from a by-road before they associate themselves with the traffic on the main road. The other way the Europeans dealt with the problem was that they made their crossroads either overhead or underground. I speak subject to correction, as I do not live in that part of the country now and do not travel it very often, but my recollection is that the Naas road is laid out in exactly the same way as any road in any other part of the country. Therefore, it is not surprising that we have had such appalling disasters there; in fact, I am surprised we have not had more heretofore. It does say something for Irish driving in relation to other countries of which I have had experience that there have been so few accidents on what is virtually a death trap. I shall go further than that and say that on the Bray road there is the same attempt at an autobahn, perhaps on a slightly smaller scale, but it is the same hazard. People come from side roads in a crossroad system, and trouble is simply being asked for.

The consultations that have taken place so far in this regard seem to consist mainly of the idea of restricting speed. I do not think you will ever restrict speed on roads that are conparativil structed like the Naas road and, to a lesser degree, other roads that are being constructed in different parts of the country. I assume the Minister himself will take a direct interest in this matter, as practically every Deputy who has stood up here in the last few days has spoken on the subject, and when he takes part in discussions with his advisers, perhaps he would cast his mind back to the days when he drove on autobahns in Europe——

Mr. B. Lenihan

With the good Deputy.

Sir Anthony Esmonde

Along with me, yes, and I hope he will realise that that is the simple answer to the Naas road. It is not a very difficult answer either, and ultimately that is the way in which we will have to deal with our problems here. We shall have to have overhead and underground systems such as they have in Europe which will do away with the right-angle intersection, and we shall not have so many accidents. Having said that, I realise that even if we achieve these seemingly perfect conditions, with the drive-in and the drive-out, there are bound to be accidents at one time or another, because there is one thing nobody has been able to deal with, that is a wet road when something goes wrong and there is a pile-up. The last time I was in Europe there were 25 cars involved in a pile-up on the autobahn between Stuttgart and Strasbourg.

However, those are not the only reasons for accidents. I draw the attention of the Minister and his advisers to another very prevalent cause of accidents, and that is, signposts. Our signposts were put up at a period when motor cars were so constructed that the lights used to go right up in the air, but with the present-day focussing of lights it is not possible to shine them on these signposts. It virtually means that when people get to a crossroad travelling at a considerable speed they cannot see the signposts. They have to pull up and look at them, and sometimes they do not pull up but try to look at them without stopping, and the result is another disaster at the crossroads.

I regret I have to go back to continental Europe again. We can learn much from Europe which is a very large place. We are now supposed to be thinking on European lines. As the Minister will perhaps recall when we were driving together on an autobahn they had a system whereby traffic directions were overhead and in front of the driver so that he need not take his eyes off the road. The directions appeared in white lettering on a blue facade indicating the different roads and instead of fooling about or looking down all the time the driver may keep his eyes on the road. That is essential for safe driving. Having driven for a great many years myself and having had only one minor accident, before I came to the Dáil, I know that if you drive regularly and frequently there is greater danger that you will take your eyes off the road. That is a fatal thing to do and is the cause of many accidents.

I have given the Minister and the Department two suggestions towards road safety and I now wish to make a third. There is the type of driver that I can only describe as a ditherer who gets into the middle of the road and cannot make up his or her mind. Very often it is a woman. Such a driver cannot decide to pass the lorry in front or whether to go faster or slower. When you meet one of these drivers in a 30 mile an hour area you find them chugging along about 20 miles an hour, dithering in the middle of the road. These people are responsible for quite a number of accidents. Yet another type of driver is responsible for accidents, the tail-sitter. This is the driver who stays behind you at night and switches his lights up and down and even when you move in and try to get him to go by, he will not do so. He causes accidents by blinding good drivers and preventing them from meeting oncoming traffic as they would wish to do.

A type of accident which is more prevalent in Dublin than elsewhere is due to cyclists who, for some reason, seem to wish to commit suicide and instead of riding in single file which would be much safer, ride two abreast and perhaps with one having his hand on the other's shoulder. There is little enough room in Dublin and its environs with the parking situation as it is, without having two cyclists abreast, particularly in the 30 mph area. It does not matter so much on the open road where one can go by but within the 30 mph area such cyclists are responsible for just as many accidents as anybody else. I do not think I have ever yet heard of a case in court in which somebody riding a bicycle was accused of being responsible for messing up traffic and causing an accident. In these enlightened times I suppose it would be considered undemocratic but I draw the Minister's attention to the fact that this does happen.

In Dublin, which has the best of everything, we have traffic wardens who give very good service in directing children at the busy periods, morning and evening and at lunchtime when going to and from school. Would the Minister not consider appointing traffic wardens in rural Ireland and even in the smaller towns where there may be only three or four gardaí whose task is to see that people keep law and order? Not only that but they must make out tillage returns and do one hundred and one other jobs. They have no time to spare. Quite recently my attention was drawn to the fact by the local paper that the local authority had repeatedly asked for a garda to come on duty at a dangerous crossing for the benefit of the schoolchildren. The superintendent replied quite reasonably that he had no garda available for the purpose. I suggest to the Minister that in a great many cases retiring gardaí often settle down amongst those with whom they worked. Particularly that happens in Wexford. All the gardaí who retire there live there and I suggest that the Minister should appoint traffic wardens utilising retired gardaí who would be trained personnel. For a small retaining fee they could be asked to work a rota if necessary so that children's lives could be safeguarded at dangerous crossings.

Generally, we are fairly law-abiding people but we have a small quota of thugs. Unfortunately, wherever one goes in any society one is bound to come across a few of them. Recently there has been a tendency for young people to seek a certain amount of excitement on the ground that there is not enough excitement in life. Personally, I have found there is nearly too much excitement but today's youth think otherwise and they are inclined to become involved in lawbreaking escapades in which they are usually led by thugs. I suggest to the Minister that so far as is within his power he would ask the district justices or whoever is supposed to deal with thugs to give them what they deserve. Nothing is more unfortunate in a district than if a thug is caught out and taken to court after considerable trouble has been taken by the gardaí and he is let off with 5/- fine and told not to do it again. There is such a thing as a first offender but many of these are not first offenders and when they cease to be such they should get what they deserve. One of the purposes of justice is to protect decent people against the inroads on society of such individuals.

Recently there were some indications from people in a position to know that drug-taking is on the increase here. I think it would be very reasonable for the Minister to expect this and to be very guarded in his outlook in case it will come here. Drug-taking, as far as I know, is one of the means used to destroy the control and the morale of free nations by those who are versed in communism. It is a fact that for a good many years there has been a fairly heavy distribution of drugs from the mainland of China. This has had its result on British life and it is very much to the detriment of the youth of today. Frequently, there have been fatal results. Constantly we read of young people being found dead in circumstances where it can be shown that they have been involved in drug-taking. Eventually they have gone too far. It stands to reason that trend will come to this country in the course of time.

I have no personal knowledge that it has come here but I have heard from people who are in a position to know that there is a good deal of drug peddling in the offing. It is a very prosperous form of trade, nearly as prosperous as the pornographic trade that went on here some years ago which, I am happy to know, is no longer existent although it was rather difficult at the time to persuade some people of its existence. From what I have heard, drug trafficking is beginning to life its ugly head here. Possible places of entry should be watched and the obvious place to watch is the docks. Very often persons distributing drugs are innocent parties. The methods of the gentlemen responsible for disseminating this evil in the world today in the majority of cases utilise sailors who are entirely innocent. Therefore, I would suggest to the Minister that he should keep that wary eye of his cocked for something that could rot and destroy this nation in a very short time.

The only other thing I want to say before letting the Minister in—unless somebody else wants to keep him out —is that the traffic situation in Dublin is becoming worse and worse. I do not know if anybody is doing anything about it but I am extremely doubtful that anything is being done because at peak hours the situation is very bad. That is understandable. That is a situation that is found in every capital and large city in the world. Recently there have been signs that traffic lights are not being used at peak hours. I have noticed that trend on one or two occasions in various places. The question could be considered of adopting the system which has been put into operation in almost every other country, that is, of abolishing the use of traffic lights in peak periods which are represented by about one hour in the morning and one hour in the evening, and making members of the Garda Síochána available for point duty. It is senseless to have two lots of traffic lights and to find the backlog of traffic from the traffic lights ahead flowing back. That situation was tolerated for a long time in Oxford Street in London but eventually it was abandoned and, as is done in all other cities, point duty men are used at peak traffic periods. Perhaps the Minister will look into that matter. He will probably say that that system is being used already but it is not being used sufficiently extensively.

The next question is that of pedestrian traffic. There are two or three places in the city of Dublin where there is an endless hold up due to pedestrians having to cross the road. Is it beyond the mind of man to arrange discussions amongst those responsible for dealing with traffic congestion? We should not wait for some grandiose scheme which is gathering dust in some Department awaiting a decision. One suggestion is that there should be overhead steel crossings which would take pedestrians off the roads in the crowded parts of Dublin, to the advantage of the flow of traffic and the safety of the pedestrians.

I am sorry if I have kept the Minister from getting in.

Minister for Justice (Mr. B. Lenihan)

It is a pleasure.

Sir Anthony Esmonde

I hope he will bear in mind the points I have made.

Mr. B. Lenihan

To take first the point that Deputy Esmonde was concerned about, the question of the alleged incidence of drug traffic, we have looked into this matter very closely. The gardaí have no evidence whatsoever of any trafficking in drugs in Ireland. Of course, there are individual cases of persons taking drugs but there is no evidence of an organised traffic in drugs. It is a matter, certainly, that does merit the very closest attention and it is getting that attention continually from the Garda Síochána because, as Deputy Esmonde says, in other countries there is pretty substantial trafficking in drugs at the present time.

The debate has been a very long and detailed one ranging over a very wide field and, indeed, this is understandable because the Department of Justice, dealing as it does with human rights and the enforcement of law inevitably impinges to a very large extent on the everyday life of all our citizens.

The Garda administration came in for much constructive comment and I thank the various Deputies for the remarks of commendation made in regard to the Force. I wish to endorse everything that has been said in commendation of the Garda Síochána who are, in my view, an excellent Force, have proved themselves such in the past and can truly be regarded as Garda Síochána—guardians of the peace—in every sense. They have a fine tradition and are upholding it fully at the present time.

It is no harm to say this and I am glad it has been said by a number of Deputies here because from time to time one reads and hears ill-informed comment about the guards in regard to their actions in handling situations. Some members of the public, I think, do not fully realise the difficulties and the problems that face gardaí in dealing with the troublesome situations that arise from time to time. Too often the finger of ill-informed criticism is pointed at them and allegations are made of undue force being used, and matters of that kind. In any of the allegations that I have investigated and followed up I have found very little basis for them. In fact, in practically all cases that I have examined I have found the allegations made against members of the Force to be groundless. For that reason I am very glad that no Deputy during the course of this debate made any suggestion or allegation such as one sees from time to time outside. In fact, the reverse was the case—most Deputies spoke in commendation of the manner in which the gardaí carry out their duties.

The question of Garda buildings came in for comment and inquiry. Just to give some hard information: during the current year six new stations and seven married quarters were provided by the Office of Public Works and 134 houses were provided by the National Building Agency. So the programme is going on. I fully appreciate that much remains to be done in the way of improving Garda stations, providing new ones and reconstructing some that can be reconstructed. It is really a question of how much we can allocate from our financial resources in each financial year, but undoubtedly there is a job to be done. The Garda stations which we inherited are now falling down, as it were, literally and metaphorically, and we need to replace them with modern stations—new stations or reconstructed stations. The work is under way and I will seek to get an increased allocation for it next year.

Deputy Michael O'Higgins and Deputy Pattison spoke about the need for more gardaí. I have had discussions about this matter with the Commissioner recently and he is examining ways and means of rationalising the allocation of the Garda so that the maximum number are placed where they are most needed from the practical point of view. Some divisions may be overloaded and other divisions may be able to release some personnel. A complete review of the whole position is taking place at the present time in this regard. However, I would stress that the strength of the Force—I want to reassure the House in regard to this —has been maintained. The strength at present is 6,560 and that is not below the strength in any one of the past ten years. However, I feel that the useful work can perhaps be done by way of reviewing the allocation of men to the various divisions so that we can have them allocated to where the greatest need exists.

Another important aspect of police effectiveness is the mechanisation of the Force. I agree that the man on the beat is still an integral and vital part of the police system but there is not necessarily any conflict between the beat system and mechanisation. Each can be linked to the other. What we want is more cars, more motorcycles, and more radios linking with the man on the beat. That is what we are seeking to do. We want to put the man on the beat more in contact with his headquarters so that assistance can be brought to him.

We propose to introduce a system of direct two-way radio contact between the man on the beat and the station. For some months we have had a number of sets on order and we will have about 130 very shortly for use by men on the beat in various parts of Dublin. We look forward to that amount being substantially increased so that throughout the State, wherever it would be useful, we will have this facility and the man on foot will be in radio contact with his station.

Another proposal which will release further Garda personnel to deal with the essential business of police work, which is crime, is the proposal in the Road Traffic Bill at present before the House to enable us to employ traffic wardens for the more minor traffic offences such as parking offences. Criticism was expressed here—and I have a lot of sympathy with it—at the fact that trained Gardaí are now on duties such as parking duty which obviously is not utilising their capacities to the full. They are doing work which could be done by men with less training, or men not as energetic or as fit.

We intend to employ a number of retired Gardaí to do the job of traffic wardens, in the city of Dublin initially and if needs be in various provincial centres as well. We have already begun preparations for selection of the personnel. Retired Gardaí will be able to operate through the various stations in Dublin and will be familiar with Garda routine: they appear to be the ideal people to carry out this business of dealing with parking and minor traffic offences. This will release, for a start, anything up to 60 or 70 Gardaí for crime duties.

I have introduced the Criminal Justice Bill which I hope to have circulated in the coming months. We will have a debate on it some time in the new year, on Second Stage in the House. One of its provisions is designed to help towards a solution of the problem mentioned by Deputy Esmonde and other speakers of the violent criminal, the man who uses some sort of offensive weapon—a flick-knife or a similar type of weapon. This has tended to be a development in crime in recent years not alone here but in other countries also where people are tending to carry offensive weapons in case they get into fracas or fights and use them too handily.

The Bill will include, with a number of other important items, a section to make the supply or distribution and use of such weapons an offence. This will strengthen the hands of the police in regard to proof of such offences, and will generally strengthen their power to deal with anyone engaging in this type of offence which, as I have said, has increased in recent years. It is a type of offence which we particularly want to stamp out. There will be a number of other provisions in the Criminal Justice Bill designed to give additional power to the Garda in regard to the taking of finger-prints and search for weapons used in the course of committing crime. These additional powers which will be subject to adequate legal safeguard will also assist the Garda in combatting certain other types of crime. They will, as I say, be subject to safeguards whereby the courts can if necessary review the exercise of such powers.

Reference was made during the course of the debate—and I had made a reference to it in my opening speech —to the work of the Crime Prevention Unit of the Garda Síochána. Prevention is obviously better than cure, to quote the old adage, and this applies particularly to crime. If one can prevent it, that is obviously better for society generally. I should like to take this opportunity to emphasise again the very useful service made available by the Crime Prevention Unit of the Garda Síochána. They advise the owners of premises how best to safeguard their property. They encourage the installation of burglar alarms and they advise on the protection of payrolls and bank lodgments. In general, they try to awaken the public to the importance of crime prevention measures.

This service can be called on in Dublin by ringing Dublin Castle. A member will then call to the house and advise on what should be done and on practical measures that would help to prevent the commission of some offence. We have extended the services to Dublin, Cork, Limerick, Waterford and Galway. Last year about 500 free surveys of premises were carried out by the Crime Prevention Unit in Dublin and they also made nearly 600 surveys of cash-in-transit arrangements. Over 1,600 visits were paid to follow up advice already given. This sort of practical work is of great value. I have said once or twice in public already, and I should like to say again, that I advise the public to make use of this very valuable service.

Reference was made by various speakers to the problem of how to deter criminals. There is no doubt that the greatest deterrent is the likelihood of being caught. In the new Criminal Justice Bill we are strengthening the hands of the police. This will ensure that there will be a greater possibility of the criminal being caught. If people who are inclined towards a life of crime get it into their heads that there is a very strong likelihood of their being caught, that is the greatest deterrent.

We cannot be complacent about the problem but by and large we are a reasonably law-abiding people. The number of indictable offences per 100,000 of population in England and Wales in 1965 was 2,465 as compared with 680 per 100,000 of population here in 1966, which shows that relatively speaking we are a fairly law-abiding people. The detection rate in England and Wales in 1965 was 39.2 per cent and the rate here in 1966 was 66 per cent, so that, as well as having a lower rate of crime, we have a substantially higher detection rate. I mention that fact, not to make us complacent but to point out that, even though we are alive to developments in regard to crime, we are, comparatively speaking, a fairly law-abiding people and also that we have an efficient force.

It was, I think, Deputy Lindsay who referred to Garda Patrol in very laudatory terms. I should like to take this opportunity of endorsing what he said. It is an excellent programme. It has improved the public image of the Force and has also resulted in the giving of very practical advice, through this powerful medium of communication, to people telling them how they should deal with criminal matters when they arise.

Deputy Pattison was concerned about responsibility for searching for people who are drowned. There is no legal obligation on the gardaí to do this, but they do it on a voluntary basis. They give this voluntary service all over the country, even when there is no criminal aspect involved. Again, the Sub-Aqua Club has been extremely helpful, in helping to find the bodies of drowned people—as also, of course, in the recovery of weapons or instruments used in the commission of crime.

Deputy Moore raised some queries about the licensing laws, as so did Deputy Mullen. I should like to repeat now what I said publicly on another occasion: we are at the moment in the course of consolidating the various licensing statues. They go back 150 years. That process is well in hands and I hope inside the next 12 months to introduce this consolidating measure. Side by side with it—or, rather, as a preliminary to it I may have to bring in a Bill which will include some minor reforms of the existing law to prepare the way for consolidation. I do not propose to bring in any substantial change in regard to opening and closing hours. There may be some anomaly here or there but, by and large, I think the present hours are substantially right in our present circumstances.

Deputy Moore, too, and some other Deputies referred to the desirability of placing young offenders in worthwhile employment on their release and also to the corrective training which should be given to them during the course of their sentences. In my speech introducing this Estimate I paid tribute to the excellent work being done by the Prisons' Service, the visiting committee, the voluntary associations in Dublin and throughout the country, and the welfare and after-care bodies who engage in this work as part of their social activity. Rehabilitation and the placing of boys in promising employment are very important.

Deputy Mullen referred to the temporary release system, which has been in operation now for a few years and which is working very well. There is a process of selection of prisoners and a decision is taken as to what prisoners can be trusted to take temporary release in order to engage in employment outside during the day, returning to the prison at night. The results have been wonderful. A number of prisoners have been placed in the past 12 months and we have never been let down yet. This system has the advantage that it enables prisoners to gear themselves to ordinary life on their release. It is a worthwhile reform showing practical results. The selection process has been proved to be good—the prisoners are well assessed.

Deputy M.J. O'Higgins, Deputy Barrett, Deputy Lindsay, and Deputy Corry referred to the question of remuneration for jurors. We are at the moment preparing a comprehensive jurors Bill in order to bring the law up to date. There will be certain reforms of the law with particular reference to the recommendations from the Committee on Court Practice and Procedure; these recommendations we have received and we hope to implement them largely. That Committee recommended the payment of £2 per day for jurors and it also recommended extending the categories of jurors to include, for instance, civil servants. I think they should be included.

The matter raised by Deputy T.F. O'Higgins in relation to juries in civil actions is a matter we are examining at the moment. I am not prepared to say yet on which side we will come down, but it is a matter obviously on which there is a great deal to be said on both sides and there is merit in the arguments both for and against. That is as far as I will go at the moment.

Deputy Michael O'Higgins raised the question of bringing in some scheme of compensation for people injured in coming to the assistance of the gardaí. There is in preparation at the moment a consolidating measure of the whole malicious injuries code. It, too, goes back 150 years. There will be a number of amendments and one of the reforms is that mentioned by Deputy O'Higgins providing for compensation as of right to be claimed by any person injured or suffering damage as a result of coming to the assistance of the gardaí. There will be a number of other matters in it as well.

Another matter mentioned here, which we are also considering in connection with the proposed Criminal Justice Bill, is the question of having some form of restitution or compensation which might be more appropriate than a jail sentence in certain cases, especially offences committed by first offenders. This has been tried out in other countries. It has been the practice here, too, to some extent and to that extent it could be said that we shall really be only legalising the present practice. I refer to cases where District Justices adjourn cases to give the accused an opportunity of making restitution and if the restitution is made, the justice subsequently takes a lenient view. We will recognise that procedure in the new Bill, and compensation may sometimes be the alternative to a jail sentence.

Mr. M.J. O'Higgins

It would, I think, be desirable to leave the discretion.

Mr. B. Lenihan

Yes. The discretion will be there. Deputy M.J. O'Higgins also suggested that provision should be made for the lodgement of full copies of deeds rather than parchment memorials in the Registry of Deeds. We have looked into this very fully and I propose to bring in a Registry of Deeds Bill inside the next 12 months; this suggested reform will be incorporated in it.

Mr. M.J. O'Higgins

That would be excellent.

Mr. B. Lenihan

The Deputy also raised the question of new probate rules which are under consideration and he adverted to the fact that some of the probate forms at present in use are in need of revision. This was already mentioned during the discussion on the Succession Act. After the passing of that Act I asked the Superior Court Rules Committee to look at the forms and carry out whatever improvement was necessary. They are still at this work, that is, examining the forms and some reforms which we have suggested to them. I think they are well advanced with the work. It is more complex than was originally realised.

A number of Deputies including Deputy M.J. O'Higgins, raised the question of how the Ground Rents Act was working. Indeed Deputy Cosgrave referred to it earlier this evening and Deputy Seán Dunne as well. This Act was in the main confined, as Deputies know, to certain types of leases, building and proprietary leases. Some other categories were covered, categories of a nature similar to those leases or which were related to them in character or form. To go outside the categories specified in the Act is, to put it mildly, a very tricky sort of operation because you cannot go too far or you impinge on ordinary contractual relationships between lessor and lessee or landlord and tenant where full market rent is agreed. That would be going far too far but there may be some categories of leases which the Ground Rents Act could cover. There is certain agitation at present connected with the Proby Estate. I have asked the Landlord and Tenant Commission to examine this type of case and I understand the Commission has received a deputation from the tenants of the Proby estate. I understand also, however, that there are complications in regard to that type of case because of the manner in which rents were drawn up initially—which brings it outside the scope of the Ground Rents Act. However, as I say, the Commission are examining this problem, to see if the provisions of the Ground Rents Act should be extended to other categories of leases and if so to what categories.

Mr. M.J. O'Higgins

The Minister may possibly be aware that one of the difficulties which the Act is running into is that in many cases it has proved to be extremely difficult to vouch the fee simple title without going to fairly enormous expense, certainly expense which would be completely out of proportion to the benefit gained and if a particular point has been referred to the Commission I think it would be well worth the Minister's while to ask them to examine the idea of allowing some kind of declaratory title to be given in these difficult cases.

Mr. B. Lenihan

I am in no doubt that the commission are alive to this point and they will, I know, examine this idea.

Other reforms which have emerged as being necessary since the Act started to operate will be incorporated in a Landlord and Tenant Bill inside the next few months. The Commission have already reported to me on suggested extensions and amendments of the 1931 Landlord and Tenant Act and these will be incorporated in this legislation I speak of, as well as any necessary reforms of the Ground Rents Act. After that the Commission will proceed to the third stage of their examination, the major stage, which is an examination of the whole landlord and tenant law going back to Deasy's Act of 1860. When that has been completed I then hope to consolidate the various Acts which we have been passing here, the 1931 Act, the 1959 Act, the Ground Rents Act and the Bill, we will be bringing in inside the next few months, as well as the older Acts going back to Deasy's Act. Deputies will appreciate, though, that this is a very tricky field, a very difficult and complex field. That is why we are going slowly and why, inevitably, difficulties will arise. The Ground Rents Act passed this year was an entirely new development, a new extension of tenants' rights. Inevitably snags have arisen, no serious snags but snags, and we intend in the coming Landlord and Tenant Bill to deal with snags that have revealed themselves so far.

Deputy Dunne referred to the need for uniformity of penalties. I agree with him, but again this is a difficult problem. It is all very well for people reading a newspaper to say: "Oh, there was such and such a fine, much different and much less, or much more, than this in exactly the same circumstances in a report I read in the newspaper last week". That is not a fair comparison. Many factors arise at a court hearing which do not necessarily appear in a newspaper report. A newspaper report, of its very nature, is invariably more abbreviated than the full hearing which took place at the court and there are all sorts of factors, personal mitigating factors which go to explain and justify certain disparities in sentences. Having said that, I agree that every effort should be made by the courts to have a broad measure of uniformity. I know that the district justices have been attempting to do this through fairly regular meetings under the chairmanship of the President of the district court which have been held periodically in the past few years. It is a problem but it is a problem which must be taken in conjunction with the importance of preserving the traditional independence of the courts and the importance of examining every case on its merits.

Reference was made to the question of courthouses and the need to adapt them to more modern needs. There is no doubt that, like the police stations, we inherited those houses from another age. They served us well but the time has come to have a hard look at the type of courthouse that we have and whether the facilities, the furniture and the layout of the court are practical and meet the needs of today. There is also, however, the question of financing the improvement and in some cases the reconstruction or building of courthouses. At the moment I am having a survey carried out of the courthouse needs in the country as a whole. I hope when that has been completed to have a clear picture of the whole position so that we can have a plan for courthouses and for their adaptation as may be necessary to modern requirements.

Deputy Mullen raised the question of the Adoption Board. Again I would like to repeat what I said already and to emphasise the important social work being done by the Adoption Board. Around 1,100 cases were dealt with last year which is excellent work. I should like to pay a tribute to the chairman and the board for the excellent work which has been done in the past few years. The work is increasing and the chairman is a whole-time chairman. The Board's work is reflected in the excellent social work which has been done—1,100 children settled in good homes. That is excellent progress. Deputy Mullen's point was the delay. There has to be some delay. There are important human rights involved and it is important that the fullest investigation must take place before an adoption order is concluded. Besides, there must be a trial period, apart altogether from the need for investigation.

I do not think there is anything else I have to refer to. I may have omitted some aspects but I think I have broadly covered the main points that were made. There is just one other point to which I would like to refer, going back to the Gardaí, and that is the important work being done under the juvenile liaison scheme. Mention was made of the importance of the Gardaí partaking in social activities. The most important work being done is their participation in the boys' and youths' clubs at the moment. There are 200 boys' clubs throughout the country where you have gardaí giving advice in training, giving talks and helping the boys attending those clubs. That is a voluntary effort which is being done by the Gardaí. Time is allowed to them to do this.

In addition, we have the juvenile liaison service in which particular gardaí are trained in child psychology and they are detailed to go out to an offender, give advice to him or her and get him or her to go on the right road. We have that scheme in operation in most of the country. I mention this particularly, going back to the point of prevention being more important than any other aspect of police work. If a potential wrong-doer, who commits his first offence, is basically a good person then a bit of advice from a garda specialising in this job can do a tremendous amount of work in preventing that particular person going on the wrong road.

I mention that as part of the positive work which the Garda are doing. It is important to emphasise what positive police work can do for potential offenders. Too often mention is made of the negative aspects of the Garda work. This emphasises the positive work which they are doing and which I am glad to see they are doing. Every encouragement should be given with regard to this and I and my Department intend to give every encouragement to this sort of positive contribution by the Garda.

I thank Deputies for their many constructive suggestions. I can assure them that everything said will be fully studied and any suggestions which can be adopted will be adopted.

Vote put and agreed to.