Committee on Finance. - Vote 6—Office of the Minister for Finance (Resumed). – Dáil Éireann (18th Dáil) – Thursday, 30 Nov 1967

Committee on Finance. - Vote 6—Office of the Minister for Finance (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:

That the Vote be referred back for reconsideration.

—(Deputy T.F. O'Higgins).

Mr. L'Estrange

Before reporting progress, I was dealing with the policy of the Government for the past six or seven years. It is the inflationary policy of the Government in that period which has got the country into the mess in which it is today. As I said, all the indicators were pointing in the wrong direction. The danger signs were on the horizon. The Government should have taken note of them.

In 1956, we had a deficit in our balance of payments of £30 million; in 1963, it was £23 million; in 1964, it was £31 million; and in 1965, it was £45 million. Can the country survive unless the Government change their policy? Many people claim it cannot survive. Unless there is a change of policy, the country is doomed. Is it the policy of the Government to make the rich richer and the poor poorer? Is it the policy of the Government to permit our population to dwindle? That is what is happening. In 1965, the Taoiseach— he was then Minister for Finance— innocently asked what went wrong. He should have known. It was the inflationary policy of the Government. It had reduced the country to the plight in which it was then. We are living on borrowed money and on borrowed time. All the signs were there and the chaos in which the country finds itself today was brought about by Fianna Fáil mismanagement.

As a constructive Opposition, with the national interest at heart, it is not only our right but our duty to ask ourselves what lasting value have we got from the huge Government expenditure over the years and from the financial policy of the Government. Where is this country heading? In 1965 the Minister for Finance, Deputy Jack Lynch, told us he was going to reduce taxation to the 1953 level. Remembering the huge outlay of public money since, if we were in a position to say that emigration had stopped and that unemployment had been substantially reduced, we would have some grounds for satisfaction. Unfortunately that is not the case. In 1956, wives were exhorted to get their husbands back to work. There was a promise of 100,000 new jobs. That promise was made to get the people's votes. I do not blame the people for voting for Fianna Fáil on foot of that promise.

What has happened? In the past ten years, 400,000 of the youth of the country have been driven out of the country because of Fianna Fáil financial policy. Homes have been sold and whole families have emigrated. We are still exporting close on 30,000 young people a year, and that despite this huge expenditure of over £300 million of the people's money. We have 10,000 more people unemployed as compared with this time last year. That figure will increase now as a result of devaluation. It will increase ever further because of the 25 per cent cut in road grants to county councils. That cut was made despite the fact that taxation on cars was increased by 25 per cent in 1966. That cut means that many county councils will have to give their workers a Christmas box of three months at home. That is not right in a Christian country. If there is a shortage of money, I see no reason why the Government should cause the weaker sections of the community more suffering. Others will be paid for 52 weeks in the year. Already some county councils have let workers go. The majority will have to let them go from now until the end of the year. That is absolutely wrong. But this is the result of the Government's financial policy and the result of the vast outlay of public money in the last few years. If there were more people in employment today we could say the country was on the right road.

I remember Deputy Let-Lemass-Lead-On stating that the acid test by which the Fianna Fáil Government could be judged would be by the number of people they put into productive employment. What are the facts? Last week I asked a question and I was told by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Taoiseach that there are 163,000 fewer people at work today than there were in 1951. Is that what the 1916 men died for? These are the people who pay lip service to the Proclamation and who hang up over their Árd Fheis that they cherish all our children equally. The Taoiseach said Fianna Fáil always tell the people the truth and that is why they are in government. Did they tell them the truth when they promised them 100,000 new jobs ten years ago? Did they keep that promise by having 163,000 fewer people at work in Ireland today?

Fianna Fáil do not seem to be concerned with the ordinary people. There was a time when they were perhaps, but they no longer seem to be concerned. Their idea seems to be to export them; if they emigrate they cannot be dissatisfied at home; they cannot organise against Fianna Fáil; they cannot vote against them. The Government should remember that the safety valve of emigration may not always be there. What would happen were Britain to close her doors to our emigrants? Had Britain closed her doors ten years ago, we would have 450,000 unemployed in this country at the moment. So long as the Government can get rid of people by exporting them they seem to be quite happy and content to pursue a policy of making the rich richer and the poor poorer.

We have a record low population. Deputy Crinion said that, for the first time in 100 years, our population showed an increase at the last census. There was an increase of 55,000 between 1945 and 1951 and there was a very small increase at the last census. The financial policy of this Government has driven and still continues to drive people out of the country. The £ has become a jet propellor: if you change it it is gone immediately. It is worth only 13/- or 14/- compared with its value ten years ago.

When Fianna Fáil were promising 100,000 new jobs and saying to our Irish women: "Wives, get your husbands out to work" they did not explain that the work would be in London, Birmingham or Coventry. They did not explain that the £, in ten years, would be worth only half what it was then worth. Our people are ground down by taxation, national and local. Not since the days of the Economic War has there been such poverty among a certain section of our people —small farmers and small businessmen. We are pricing ourselves out of markets. If this policy continues, our industries will not be able to hold their own even on the Irish market when tariffs are reduced or abolished. That is a very real danger.

The eyes of the Government are closed to our plight. They said, for example, that the reason for the catastrophic drop in cattle prices last year was the closing of EEC markets. Those markets were closed on 1st April, 1966. Yet, at the end of May of that year, the Minister for Finance said the price of cattle would increase by £5 or £7 a head. Did he not know that the EEC markets were closed six weeks before that or were the Government deliberately trying to keep the truth from the Irish people?

The Taoiseach said at the Fianna Fáil Árd Fheis that Fianna Fáil always tell the truth to the people. In fact, they have misled and fooled the Irish people as best they could and especially at election time when they wanted their votes. A very real danger is the Government's high taxation and the position of our industries in the light of the Free Trade Area Agreement. I do not know if we have an agreement with Britain about tariff reductions. We were reducing our tariffs in preparation for entry into EEC and the reduction so far brought about is definitely harming our industries. Many people are losing their employment. A further reduction is due in January. Already, the reduction is steep.

General de Gaulle has made it clear that we shall not get into the Common Market in the next five or seven years and, that being so, the Government should review the policy of tariff reductions and discuss the matter with Britain with a view to obtaining a longer term for the protection of our industries. If we have a further tariff reduction in January the jobs of many of our kith and kin will be jeopardised because certain industries will seriously be affected. To continue with this present financial policy is the road to disaster. It is essential that this warning be heeded. If it is not heeded, we are surely committing hara-kiri.

With the loss of value in the £ and the fact that we purchase in non-devaluing countries, it is essential that our people realise that it is in all our interests to "buy Irish" whenever possible. That should be emphasised at every opportunity. As the Minister for Finance is in charge, he should give the lead in this connection. It is the duty of the Government to control the economy and to balance all factors one with the other. They are the only people who can see the full picture. It is their duty to extract our people from the financial morass in which we find ourselves today.

The more we study events in this country in the past few years the more we are made to realise that the Government respond to every wind that blows. They are always trying to do what they believe will get them votes. They use the people's money to buy votes for themselves. The inflation we have had for the past few years has been due to the fact that, election after election, the Government inject money into the economy to bribe the people into voting for them.

There are difficult days ahead. Certainly devaluation will hit us. It behoves the Government to give the country a better lead than they have done in the past. It is the duty of employers to ensure that there is better management. Indeed, many of them should work harder. In the national interest, and in their own interest, employers and unions should accept certain changes.

Whenever Fianna Fáil were in Opposition, the financial policy enunciated by them seemed excellent but what they preached to the people when in Opposition and what they perform when in Government are two completely different things. The moment they get back into power, public expenditure and local expenditure start careering upwards. Indeed, in our present dilemma I suppose they are merely running true to form. Many people now believe that, despite the continued upward swing in Government taxation, it fails to reflect the real gravity of the crisis. I want to recall what Deputy Seán Lemass stated when in Opposition. He said in 1956 he would not allow taxation to increase beyond the 1953 level. When he got into office, taxation increased from £108 million to £300 million and the national debt was doubled from £400 million to £800 million.

Let us learn from the mistakes made by Britain. The large amount of money which Britain borrowed has got her into her present crisis. It should be remembered that the honeymoon is over. You can borrow for a certain length of time but now it is costing as much to service the national and local debt—£90 million—as it cost to run the country 12 years ago. It is time for the Government to sit up and take notice. If they continue with their present financial policy and continue running to England, Germany, America and the Bank of Nova Scotia, we will be in the same position as England was a few months ago, in the position of a man who borrows too much money. It is time the Government realised that.

Never before in the history of the country was it more necessary to have a period of stability for our producers, whether they are farmers or industrialists, so that they can equip themselves for the more competitive period that lies ahead. Even if we do not enter the EEC in the next five or six years, with the reduction in tariffs that has taken place because of the Free Trade Agreement, that competitive period will be there. When the Government increase taxation the producers must increase their costs and when costs are increased, the cost of living is increased. Then the workers are entitled to seek more wages and you have wages chasing prices and prices chasing wages. If we are to have a period of stability, the Government's financial policy will have to be changed.

The only way in which tax revenue can be increased without increasing the cost of living, without causing inflation, without having bad industrial relations, is by a growth in national production which will provide a larger taxable income. If the Government give the lead to the people to work harder and increase production, then we can bake a larger national cake and from such a larger cake the Government can, without increasing taxation, get more revenue and the different sections of the people, whether they are workers or farmers, can and should get a just share. All sections of the community are entitled to organise to demand their rights and to get them. The workers are entitled to do it and the farmers should be entitled to do it. However, we do not want to see increased taxation if we can help it because it will do untold harm to our people in the years ahead.

The Government should be more careful to ensure that we do not price ourselves out of existing markets. The inescapable fact is, as the Government must know, if public spending maintains its upward course, it will outstrip the real growth in the economy. A flabby cost structure has been inflated like a balloon over the past few years by the Government and there is a grave danger that the balloon will collapse. It cannot be denied that Government policy has been calculated, both in regard to its timing and its general direction, to raise prices and costs. The time has come for the Government to endeavour to have a period of stability in the years ahead. There is no denying the fact that small shopkeepers, business people, small farmers and people on fixed incomes are heavily and unfairly penalised because of Government financial policy, because of the turn-over tax, etc., and now they are being further hit because of devaluation. The Government are making a grave error in believing that a man can always find the money to pay his taxes or rates. It reminds me of the time when I heard the Taoiseach saying that they always told the people the truth. I remember when Mr. de Valera spoke in Mullingar and promised complete de-rating to the people. At that time the rates were between 5/- and 6/- in the £ and we all know what they are today. That is another example of how they always told the people the truth and kept their promises.

This country has at its disposal a highly effective weapon in taxation which, if properly used, can create and expand wealth internally and attract wealth from foreign sources as well. So far, however, taxation has been used by the Fianna Fáil Government as an instrument for dissipating, destroying and discouraging wealth instead of attracting it and building it up. In that regard I welcome the Government's conversion to the idea of using taxation to encourage industrial enterprise. Full credit is due to Deputy Sweetman and the late Deputy Norton for introducing in 1956 two Bills which were designed to provide incentives to manufacturers from abroad to come here and start factories and to invest here. The Government of that day believed that instead of boys having to emigrate to Birmingham, Coventry, or London to look for work, it would be much better if we could get industrialists with money and the technical know-how to come here, to start factories here and provide employment for our people. Deputy Costello, Deputy Norton and Deputy Sweetman were on that side of the House when those Bills were introduced and Deputy Seán Lemass was on this side. He bitterly opposed both Bills and voted against them. He said that at some time in the future his Party would be in a position to alter those laws and that he would knock them off the Statute Book. The Minister is looking at me as if he doubted me. I have not got the quotations but I can give the Minister the references and——

Mr. Haughey

I accept it; it is true.

Mr. L'Estrange

——and he can read them himself. Is that then the Government which the Taoiseach at the Fianna Fáil Árd-Fheis said had always told the truth to the people; that they would always tell the truth, and that the reason they were in power was that they told the people the truth? I stated here that they have hardly ever told the people the truth, that they have misled them. Deputy Lemass misled them in 1957 when he told them that the financial policy of the Government was to cut down on the Budget, that they would not increase taxation. They kept that promise by imposing taxation——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy has said that on at least three occasions. He is repeating himself line after line. Repetition is not in order.

Mr. L'Estrange

I do not want to repeat myself, but Deputy Lemass at that time vigorously opposed that Bill and those concessions that were given. Today Fianna Fáil are getting credit for the industrialists who came in, and remember, one of the first to come in was Whitegate in Cork, with £12 million. If Deputy Sweetman, the late Deputy Norton, Deputy Costello and the Government of that day had not given those concessions, we would not have the industries that came in in the past ten years. They came in because of the grants they got under the 1956 and 1957 Acts and also the taxation concessions they got for many years. Anyway I welcome the Government's conversion to these proposals. It is a course that the Government should continue to pursue and expand so as to build up the wealth of our citizens and, indeed, to attract more outside capital for investment in our factories.

Dr. Gibbons

Deputy L'Estrange, at some stage of his speech, said that he would like to see the boys of the country organise football and hurling clubs. I was a little disappointed because I felt he must have forgotten about the athletic clubs and the cross-country running organised by them.

Mr. L'Estrange

I did it for years.

Dr. Gibbons

He must now have ceased to take an interest in cross-country running.

Mr. L'Estrange

Too fat.

Dr. Gibbons

Instead, he runs across the years. He always seems to run back to 1932, and on the return journey, he takes up the same point and exercises himself in the same manner about them. He painted this dismal picture of some of the deserted villages in the west of Ireland. I should like to remind him that the most famous deserted village was one in his constituency, the area he now represents. This area which he represents indicates the social and economic change which took place many years ago. One is almost convinced, when one listens to Deputy L'Estrange, that if he were then the representative of that area in Parliament, this would not have taken place. This would have meant that now we would not have the farms of anything from 200 to 800 acres there.

Mr. L'Estrange

Deputy Crinion has 1,000 acres and he is——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy has spoken at length, and surely he will let Deputy Gibbons make his speech.

Dr. Gibbons

The people who were taken from the middle of the country would not be now the small holders in the west of Ireland; probably Goldsmith would not have had the subject for his famous poem, and not alone would he have died poor but would also probably have died unknown.

We, the Deputies of this House, are sent here to make legislation and to make regulations, and to see that they are just. We must also see that they are justly administered, and, if they happen to be unjustly administered, have them repealed. We have the duty to levy taxes and to see that the money so collected is properly spent. Furthermore, we are elected at local level and every few years we have to return to the local people to account for our stewardship. This means that each and every one of us has a vital interest in seeing how the administration of the Government and the Departments affects our local areas.

This Estimate of the Minister for Finance deals more or less specifically with the area from which I come, the western area. The constituency I represent is in this area, and anything the Minister for Finance or any other Minister for Finance brings before this House to help this area must be welcomed by us. Everything helps, and I do not think that people who come in here on one day and blame the Government for trying to do something, and on another day blame the Government for having tried something, are sincere about the problem or that they themselves have a plan or policy for this area.

I do not know if it is now necessary to enumerate once again some of the schemes which have been introduced to help us. The pilot area was one started as an experiment. It has proved successful, and the extent of the area has been trebled. Those to whom it now applies are very enthusiastic about it. I have no doubt that if the Government are convinced that it is worth following up, we shall see it extended in the next few years to the entire western area.

Industry is something we want in the western area. Various methods have been tried to induce industry to go there. Tax concessions were given to the bigger industries, and they did not seem to work to that extent. Now the small industries are being tried, and this is a welcome development, something that is being received enthusiastically and, to my mind, something that will lead somewhere and retain some of the people of the West in their native places. Around my own area, three or four places have benefited by it already. I understand all the establishments are very pleased, and those who are getting the work are delighted to have an opportunity of staying at home.

Other schemes that have been tried have been put on a firm footing. I refer to a handcraft industry in my own native parish called the Slievebawn Handcrafts. This started as a local effort and at a certain stage, they found themselves running into financial difficulties; then the Department of Finance came along and helped them. It is now a going concern. The people here again are enthusiastic, and this is an indication of what a government should do through its department of finance, which is the department controlling its money. More recently still another handcraft industry, somewhat analogous, has been started in the Carrick-on-Shannon area. I have no doubt that if this can be developed successfully, this too will help the people of that area in County Leitrim. Again this would not have started without the help of the Department of Finance and the Minister and for this we are grateful. It shows that the Government are in earnest about helping in any and every project that shows that it may be successful.

The latest thing that strikes my mind is the question of decentralisation. This has been criticised in the House. To my mind, it is an excellent effort. People throughout the country have been asking for this for years. It is something that could not be done without a lot of thought. A number of people may be adversely affected by it; nobody likes to have his family and home uprooted, but I feel that this side of it is exaggerated. I do not think the impact will be as great as we are led to believe from reading letters to the newspapers. Again it conveys to us, the Deputies who represent the west of the country, that here we have a Government and a Minister for Finance who are in earnest about what they are doing and what they propose to do. It is not merely a question of saying something; they are doing it and they have promised to do more and this more will be welcomed too.

It is a difficult task to try to resist economic forces as we find them in the country but the Government have in the past made various efforts to reverse those economic forces. The question of tax incentives is one example and probably the most important one is grants to industries. I feel that time will show that decentralisation will be successful and will be worthwhile. This has been done in other countries and in other circumstances. Why should not we, the Irish people, be able successfully to bring about something in our circumstances? I have no doubt we can do so with enthusiasm and if certain people—I am not referring to the civil servants who are being disturbed but to others who started to wail about it and to say right away that it will not be successful and that it cannot be done—change their approach. I feel our approach to this should be to welcome it. It has been decided to do it and we should just get on and do it in the best possible manner.

Criticism has been offered of surveys. A survey means the acquiring of information and all these things are essential. The more information one has about a subject, an area or a difficulty, the better one is able to deal with it and make provision to right what is going wrong. Those surveys have helped in the development of our economy and I think it is very wrong to criticise them.

There are other things no doubt that we in the West would like to see done to help us along. Forestry is one which does not come under the Minister for Finance directly and drainage is another. Although they do not come under the Minister for Finance directly, his Department provides the money for doing those works. I would like to urge on him that as each Department makes its claim from the financial kitty for extra money for forestry or for drainage, to be in a benevolent mood when he is dealing with it.

The employment of our people is a big answer to our problems. It is good to learn that over the past five years the number employed in industry has increased by, I think, something like 14,000. A significant thing mentioned somewhere in the past few weeks was to the effect that over this period industry was absorbing those who are leaving the agricultural land. This surely is a step forward. This is the one thing we were hoping our economy would eventually succeed in doing and it is good to learn that it has done so. Criticism has been offered of the Second Programme for Economic Expansion but surely this is the answer. If we have succeeded in doing this, the Second Programme must be a success. Perhaps it was not a success to the extent that we would have wished but then it is not given to any of us to be omniscient. We cannot see beyond an hour or two, if we can see that distance at all. To make war on any programme just because it did not reach its target is, I think, wrong, especially when we are developing it as a new policy. It brings us back to this question of enthusiasm and confidence in ourselves. If we are to condemn everything that does not reach 100 per cent expectation, then we are creating a wrong spirit in our people and they will lose confidence in themselves. This figure must be used as the hallmark of success and to convince all critics that the Second Programme for Economic Expansion had some merit.

In this House in the form of questions and at various times, there has been criticism of the building of office blocks by foreigners, the advent of foreign insurance companies, the advent of foreign finance companies, the advent of foreign banks to the city. Perhaps this may be a legitimate criticism to one extent but surely in one part of one's speech, one cannot criticise these things and at a later part point out how important it is that money should be brought into the country for investment and that inducements should be held out by the Government to bring in this money. The Labour Party have made their position quite clear on this question of finance. They would compel the banks to invest their money in this country. The Fine Gael Party should state definitely that if they are returned to power, they will take over the offices of companies which they do not want in the country. To my mind, this is the essence of argument. It is all right to argue but one should be in a position to state what he will do if he gets to power. I feel this is an important aspect of our public life. I have no doubt the Minister and the Department of Finance have all those activities under survey and that they and the Government, when the time arises, will deal with those people if they abuse their position in the country.

We heard a lot about devaluation inside and outside the House. It is a big problem and very hard to understand. It appears to be one of those occasions where people are not producing the goods up to the standard, quality or the amount that they allege they are doing, so when this final effort is translated into money, it is found that this money is not up to the standard either and to bring it into standard with foreign currency, it has to be devalued. We have had lectures often on the remedies for it but I will not go further into that.

In this House today we have been reminded by certain people about what the Fianna Fáil Party said in the past. The Minister for Finance has been challenged and asked whether he will contradict those statements and what he will say about them. This does not contribute to the debate in this House. The people who made those statements should state exactly how they feel about devaluation. That is what they should do. It is no good coming in here and nothing what others say. They should say what they think about it and if they are as near to taking over power as they say they are they should say what they think should be done on this occasion. They should not continue to go back down the years or other things.

A lot has been made in the House today, too, of the state of Britain as we see it, particularly in the last year, —that it has become a decadent nation. I can recall reading in some magazine or other some years ago that at the time of Napoleon somebody in one of the papers went to the trouble of compiling a list of the occasions on which it had been said in the previous 200 years that Britain was on the way out. There were about 20 quotations. If somebody did research and collected a similar number of quotations since 1800 he would find many indications that Britain was on the way out. Anyway the British Empire is definitely on the way out. Where it is going as a country is another thing. The fact that the Scottish and Welsh nationalists have got seats in Parliament may be an indication that Britain as a nation is on the brink of breaking up. One wonders how Great Britain as a political unit has got over her difficulties in the economic world.

We are always inclined to feel that people are not patriotic under those circumstances. It is one of those things that have grown with us. I have a feeling that in Britain, particularly in England, you have a conglomeration of people now. People of various nations are coming in there, Irish, Pakistani, West Indians, to work and earn a lot of money. They have no sense of loyalty but perhaps the opposite, still living in past history. Their main interest is to draw their wage packet and the bigger it is the better for them.

This is in contrast to the other countries of Europe, for example, France and Germany, who depend purely, or more or less, on the loyalty of their own people. I do not know how many would agree with me in this. The Welsh and the Scots find it is time to start thinking about their own problems in a new manner. Some thousands have done it successfully and it will be interesting to see how these will progress from year to year. I know that on previous occasions the nationalists in those areas won seats and lost them again but at that time it was purely under nationalist causes. Now there is economic pressure and this is one of the greatest pressures that can best people or individuals.

To get back to our own local problems, I should like to state, irrespective of what is being said in this House by members of the Opposition, that the western problems are in the hands of a Government and a Party that are interested in them. They are making some progress and I hope we will continue to do so. I feel confident that we will continue to do so.

Mr. Gilhawley

Candidly, I was very disappointed with the approach of the last speaker to the problems of the west of Ireland. He appeared to give the impression to the House that everything in the garden was rosy, that this Government was the only one showing interest in the west of Ireland. When I am finished I hope the boot will be on the other foot. I am glad, as a Deputy from the west of Ireland, to have this opportunity to say a few words on this Estimate, especially on the items relating to western development, on the amount of money allocated by the Minister for projects there and to point out that much more is required.

Were it not for the serious problems that obtain in the west of Ireland today, I would have accepted the statement by the Minister on western development as a huge joke, a mere sop, as we say in the west, to gag the mouths of the people who voice their opinions on the problems, the very serious problems, in the western areas. Indeed, the mouths of many in the west have already been gagged. A strange silence has fallen on the west of Ireland in recent times. It is a silence to my mind born of frustration in trying to get a Government to understand the problems that exist there and failure to come to their aid before it was too late.

I wonder is it too late now. The attempt to stop the tidal wave of emigration from the west should have taken place about ten years ago, before 44,000 youths, including entire families, had left the province of Connacht.

I remember travelling by train in the winter and watching the railway stations at Ballymote, Boyle, Carrick-on-Shannon and Dromod. The boys and girls came down from the hills and up from the valleys, heading for one focal point, the railway station. I watched them boarding the trains, their mothers and fathers weeping, waving handkerchiefs until the train disappeared from view. I chatted with those people during the long journey to Dublin, I learned of their frustration and cynicism which had grown to such an extent that nothing could cure them. I watched them getting off the train at Westland Row, crossing the platform and getting on the boat train.

During the past two years or so, this is not happening to the same extent. During the past year, very few are to be seen. The reason is that most of them have gone and so far as the remnants who are left behind are concerned, even at this late stage, the Government are not realising their responsibilities to the West or properly coming to its aid before vast tracts become playgrounds or national parks.

In another part of my constituency, north Leitrim—poor north Leitrim, divested of population—I not so long ago travelled a road I knew very well. I taught in a school which had a road leading to it from Glenfarne and Kiltyclogher. The road leading to the school was black with children, up to 35 of them or more. I travelled that road two years ago to find only two people living on it, one, an old age pensioner living alone and the other, a man of 60 years, also living alone.

Fianna Fáil Governments are responsible for the position that obtains in the west of Ireland today. They did not listen to the voices of the bishops, to the voices of the Save the West Committee, raised so often in appeals to save the West. It is all right for the Government to say now they are coming to the help of the West. What they are doing is barely scratching the surface of a tremendous problem. When I spoke to the 44,000 people who left Connacht during the past years, they told me they had waited in vain for something to turn up. They thought surely that the voices of the bishops would be heard and that employment would be found for them. They waited for the 100,000 jobs Fianna Fáil had promised them. But they left in despair and frustration. Some of them told me they would never return to the country in which they were born and reared, the country that had let them down so badly. That is the true picture of the West, not the picture painted by Deputy Gibbons. Was the Minister serious last year when he made supplementary provision of £5,000 for special aid projects in the West? Imagine £5,000 for the West.

Mr. Haughey

In fact, it was a quarter of a million pounds.

Mr. Gilhawley

I am coming to that. That was last year. Was the Minister serious——

Mr. Haughey

It was only a token.

Mr. Gilhawley

"Token" is correct, but at least it showed that the Government at last realised the problems of the West. Remember, it is only five years ago, when I was talking here about the West, that a Minister got up and said special problems did not exist in the West, that we were doleful willies coming in here crying about the West where everything was rosy. There is a big change of heart on the part of Fianna Fáil. However, when the Minister provided £250,000 this year, did he seriously think that this pittance would help to arrest the tidal wave of emigration from the West? There are special regional development organisations. How much of this money will go in the salaries of the county development officers, to pay for offices and office staffs, and how much will go directly to do something for the benefit of the people?

Mr. Haughey

That is right: try to denigrate it.

Mr. Gilhawley

I am not denigrating it.

Mr. Haughey

I thought the Deputy wanted the West to be helped. When we do something, why does he adopt this denigratory attitude? He is not sincere.

Mr. Gilhawley

Much more sincere than the Minister. If the Minister and the Government are sincere, why do we in this House talk in terms of millions of pounds to help hundreds of workers in the Verolme yard in Cork—something which had my support—and why did we pour millions into the Avoca mines and at the same time, speak in terms of a quarter of a million pounds to help an area from which 44,000 people have emigrated? Who is serious? This is only a sop to close the mouths of the people in the West.

Mr. Haughey

It is nothing of the sort. It is a concrete, positive contribution, and if the Deputy were sincere, he would welcome it as such.

Mr. Gilhawley

I welcome it. We are grateful for small mercies. It may be a concrete offer but it is on a miserably small scale. If the Minister and the Government were sincere when millions of pounds were poured out to foreigners—some of it went down the drain, too, in the Avoca mines—why did they not talk in terms of millions to save the West? On the matter of this regional development plan, I sat down at a table to discover what was in it, what could be done. I welcome it if some benefits accrue from it. We sat down at a table in my town of Ballymote, which has a population of 1,000 and where the only industry has been the railway station, to see how industries could be established, but it seems farcical because of the way things are going.

However, as I have said, something concrete has been started, and I hope things will improve. The Minister, in his statement, spoke of revitalising the West. In that there is admission of the problems that exist there. Of course, I welcome the decentralisation of Departments policy, the move West. I can see a good reason for sending one of the Departments to Castlebar, but I cannot see any reason for sending one to Athlone at this early stage. Athlone is not the centre of the West. It is not the centre of a depressed area.

Mr. Sheridan

Does the Deputy mean to say there is no emigration from Athlone, that there is no emrigation from anywhere only from the West? He will admit there has always been emigration from the West and on a larger scale than now. They were known as "the tatie-hokers."

Mr. Gilhawley

Athlone is not so depressed an area as the north-west. If you look at a map of the west of Ireland and look where the greatest depressed areas in it are you will find that they are in North Leitrim. Surely the focal point in the north-west was Sligo town, which is only six miles from North Leitrim. If we were serious in our revitalisation of the West a Department should have been allocated to Sligo town. I hope in future that that will happen and I would suggest the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries.

Decentralisation will not revitalise the West. There are too many houses shut down. It will not open up those houses again. There are too many small farms waterlogged and it will not do anything for them. So far as we in the west of Ireland are concerned the youth are revitalising England and other places, to which they had to emigrate. If we are serious in revitalising the west of Ireland productive work is what we want. We want productive employment for our people. On many occasions it has been stated here that in regard to the west of Ireland there is a great amount of money spent on social welfare benefits. We in the west of Ireland are proud people. There are people, of course, who must draw unemployment assistance but there are quite a number of young people who do not want unemployment assistance. They want productive work.

We have any amount of projects for productive work in my constituency. We have the River Arrow and the River Owenmore. This may not be pertinent on this Estimate but the money must come from the Department of Finance. In 1903 the River Arrow was seventh on the priority list and in 1961, almost 60 years afterwards when I asked the Minister for Finance in this House if there were any proposals in his Department for the drainage of the Arrow and the Owenmore he said "no". We then got the matter going and I understand it is No. 17 on the priority list. That was good caretaking, from 1903, being seventh to 1967 being No. 17. If that is the manner in which we are trying to revitalise the West then we might as well forget about it.

There are 117,000 acres, admitted in this House, waterlogged land in my constituency. If the money we were talking about a while ago were allocated for drainage work in that part of the country you would have productive employment for the young people who are emigrating and, secondly, you would have the land drained for the farmers who stay at home.

The other matter I would like to refer to is industrialisation of the West. We are grateful for the small industries but it is no solution to the problem there. We want some heavy industries which will employ male labour mostly. The only heavy industries in Sligo, I might mention, were established under the inter-Party Government. Some of the first heavy industries in the West, after the Industrial Development Authority was formed, were opened by an inter-Party Minister. I understand that we are now promised in the North West a milk powder plant. We are very grateful, indeed, for that. It is not to the Government we are grateful, I might say, but to the dairy societies who have done this. It will be noted in this, too, that the west of Ireland again was the last spot in the country for which a milk powder plant was mooted in spite of the fact that it is a milk producing area. One was established in the south of Ireland and also in the North, but the West had to be left to the last. At any rate, I hope that in the future a larger amount of money will be provided for the west of Ireland to aid projects in the West. In the meantime, we have to wait for the crumbs that fall from the Fianna Fáil table.

Mr. Briscoe

We have heard quite a few speeches so far in this debate and to listen to some of the speakers you would think that the country was beset by one of the greatest depressions of all time. Last night, listening briefly to that master, as I term him, of doom and foreboding, Deputy Dillon, speaking, you would swear that we had better quickly look around to see what we are going to do to save ourselves. I should like to remind some of the members of the Opposition in particular that we in this country have been progressing at an excellent rate in comparison with many other countries in Europe, and certainly in comparison with Britain, a country to which we are supposed to be tied hand and foot. It was once said that if America got a cold Britain got pneumonia. The same could have been said about us over here: if Britain got a cold we would get pneumonia.

This has been shown to be very far from the true situation. Our annual growth rate from 1957 to 1967 averaged 3 per cent. In the year of Britain's great difficulty, 1956 to 1957, our growth rate was running around 4 per cent. Last year, 1966, when we were experiencing a recession, the Government took measures to offset any great unemployment that might occur. The great difference here was that the action the Fianna Fáil Government took compared with the action, or should I say the non-action, the inter-Party Government took in 1956, shows that today the measures the Fianna Fáil Government took in 1966 have been shown to be correct.

Credit restriction has been eased quite considerably but at no time during the height of that difficult period was there lack of capital available for industrial expansion. Anybody who required money for industrial expansion found that it was there for them. We have heard a lot of talk about the tremendous failures of the First and Second Programmes for Economic Expansion. The First Programme for Economic Expansion was a tremendous success in that all the targets set out in it were exceeded. The recession which occurred half way through the Second Programme set back certain of these targets. Nevertheless, when 1970 comes, it will be seen that many of the targets will have been exceeded.

Without doubt, we have a tremendous opportunity in this country. In many quarters, I have heard high praise for the excellent Budget the Minister presented to us this year. In particular, accountants regarded it as a really excellent measure. This shows that the measures taken by the Minister were the right ones. I speak to many people outside this House. There is no feeling amongst anyone I have met that the country is going down the drain; rather is there a feeling that it is going places. While Government Ministers are exhorting the people to greater effort for higher production, we have from the Opposition benches the kind of opposition which thrives on breeding dissatisfaction, saying that people are not being paid enough and that the social welfare recipients should get more. They will tell you a thousand and one ways of giving out money but not how to raise it.

Dáil Éireann debate - Thursday, 30 Nov 1967

Committee on Finance. - Vote 6—Office of the Minister for Finance (Resumed).

Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 30 Nov 1967