Skip to main content
Normal View

Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 5 Dec 1967

Vol. 231 No. 9

Committee on Finance. - Vote 26—Local Government (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:
That a sum not exceeding £9,030,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1968, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Local Government, including Grants to Local Authorities, Grants and other Expenses in connection with Housing, and Miscellaneous Schemes and Grants including certain Grants-in-Aid.
— (Minister for Local Government).

As Deputies are quite aware the Dáil adjourned on Thursday the 23rd before I had finished reading my speech on the Estimates. I had dealt only with housing and sanitary services. I now come to roads. In regard to roads and road traffic, the objective of my Department continues to be to secure greater safety and efficiency in the use of our roads and in pursuing this major aim to use to the best possible effect the overall resources, necessarily limited, available for the work.

Perhaps in no part of my Department's work is the need for team effort more apparent than in that of road safety because here we are seeking to get the whole community—since practically every man, woman and child is a road user — to play a part. The agencies which my Department work with here include the Department of Education and the Gardaí, the local authorities, Radio Telefís Éireann and, of course, the Safety First Association of Ireland. They all co-operate in the annual campaigns run by my Department such as that conducted in the early summer this year, the chief feature of which was a nationwide road safety competition in the schools. A further "campagin" is being run this month and the chief feature of it is a nationwide competition based on the "Rules of the Road", a completely new edition of which is being issued. There will also be a drive aimed at pedestrians and cyclists, with special emphasis on after-dark protection.

These "campaigns" as they are called, are only the peaks of work that goes on throughout the year. Thus, the Safety First Association, with the help of a grant from the Road Fund, employs full-time officers covering a great part of the country, who are constantly at work stimulating local and personal interest in road safety. My Department throughout the year continues to turn out films and leaflets and to co-operate with Radio Telefís Éireann in the production of material for use on television and, having consulted with the Department of Education and the Irish National Teachers' Organisation, is preparing visual aids to road safety instruction in the primary schools. These aids will take the form of special charts which will enable teachers to combine road safety instruction with the teaching of Irish and English.

I wish to take the opportunity of expressing to all the bodies, a number of whom I have not mentioned by name, who co-operate with my Department in road safety work, my sincere appreciation and to thank in particular the members of the advisory committee on propaganda which has now been working with my Department for a number of years.

I think that those engaged on road safety work deserve appreciation, if for no other reason, for the fact that, despite all their efforts, the accident rate is on the move up and in particular fatal accidents have continued to increase. This is no reflection on the quality and intensity of the work being done on road safety propaganda; without it, without sustaining and developing it, things could be much worse. As I shall mention later, research into road accidents is being undertaken on a comprehensive scale by An Foras Forbartha, but such studies as we have been able to conduct to date indicate that to many of out roads the volume of traffic has reached a level at which a sharp increase in accident rates can be expected. It is a major aim of our road programme to carry out as quickly as possible the road traffic improvements necessary to take the increasing traffic in safety, but all the improvements needed cannot obviously be carried out simultaneously so that, for the present, we shall have to place most of our reliance on other methods—traffic management, propaganda and legal controls such as those envisaged in the Road Traffic Bill. I trust that, when we come to renew the debate on that Bill, those taking part will bear in mind the sombre background to it, the accident statistics.

Most of the controls applied under the existing law are of course aimed at securing greater road safety, others at improving traffic flow. During the year these controls were maintained, developed and improved. One of the most important safety controls is comprised in the scheme of driving tests, which has now become an accepted part of the procedure for driver licensing. In fact, the numbers of applications for tests being dealt with by my Department have grown at the rate estimated at the time the scheme was being designed. These numbers, which are currently running at about 1,000 per week, will undoubtedly continue to increase for some years to come and the additional staff needed to handle the increasing numbers of tests are being recruited.

In all, since the inception of the scheme in March, 1964, more than 78,000 tests have been carried out and the rate of failure in these tests has been just 52 per cent. The driving test is a test of competence and simply aims at ensuring that a person who passes the test can drive safely to a satisfactory standard. It seems obvious that many people undertake the test without adequate preparation. This shows a regrettable lack of appreciation of the serious responsibility involved in driving a motor vehicle in modern conditions.

Another important safety control is that of speed limits. The comprehensive review of speed limits on all routes is now nearing completion; all but four counties have been examined. In order to ensure that the proposed amendments come into operation as soon as possible, a separate set of regulations is being introduced for each county. Regulations for eight counties have already been made; regulations to cover the remainder will be introduced as quickly as possible. With the completion of the review there will be a more uniform and reasonable application of speed limits throughout the country.

I come now to the problem of traffic flow, a problem that becomes ever more complex with the growing volume of vehicles on the roads. The Road Traffic Bill, in addition to its provisions on road safety, has a number of proposals designed to improve traffic and parking conditions. In traffic matters, the primary functions rest with the Gardaí and the local authorities, and I operate largely as a consenting and enabling authority. During the year I gave my consent to 14 sets of local traffic and parking bye-laws and temporary rules. Nine car parks were provided with the aid of grants from the Road Fund and the subheads for Urban and Rural Employment Schemes. A number of sets of traffic light signals and pedestrian lights were provided with the aid of Road Fund grants. During the year the Road Traffic (Signs) Regulations were amended to prescribe for the redimensioning of roadway markings, such as centre and lane lines suitable for present day traffic and speeds, and to prescribe a new traffic sign to indicate the existence of a clearway.

In Dublin, the co-operation in traffic matters between my Department, the Corporation, the Gardaí and CIE continued. Meetings of a committee of officials representative of these bodies took place at regular intervals. During the year the committee was broadened to include representatives of Dublin County Council and Dún Laoghaire Corporation. The Committee is primarily concerned with securing more efficient use of existing facilities.

During the year some additions were made to the one-way street system by temporary rules made by the Garda Commissioner with my consent. There has been an improvement in traffic flow in the central city area following on the one-way system, but this can soon be negatived by increased traffic, and indeed it led to a shift of the congestion to the suburban radial routes. Action to deal with these will proceed in two stages. First, comes the introduction of a simple clearway regulation, such as was introduced some time ago on the Rathmines and Ranelagh routes. The system worked very successfully there and facilitated the movement in peak hours of buses, which carry the majority of the workers to and from the central city area. Accordingly it has been extended recently to other radial routes and will no doubt be extended to still more in the future.

Remedial measures give ease for a time only, that is, if traffic continues to build up, and ultimately a decision must be reached as to whether conditions will be allowed to become chaotic or whether restrictions will be imposed on the use of the streets in the central city area. One does not have to be an expert to realise that, if a whole lot of radial routes discharge all the traffic they can into a limited central area, and most of that traffic seeks to park in the limited area, chaos will result.

Everyone is familiar with the sight of large streams of private cars pourpose ing into the city each morning with generally only one or two persons in each car. Great numbers of these cars are left on the city streets until the evening rush begins in the reverse direction. The provision of central off-street car parks will not solve the problem because the existence of such car parks will attract more commuters in the morning and, at the evening peak, the full complement of cars will be discharged on to the limited street system. To remove the limitations of the existing street system would involve an enormous amount of capital expenditure and I cannot visualise a time when sufficient capital can be diverted from more pressing needs to redesign radically our city streets to cater for all the foreseeable commuter traffic that would want to use them each morning and evening during rush hours. An obvious solution, at this stage, is to limit severely parking in the central city area. The parking meter enables priority in such kerbside parking as is available to be given to the short-term parker. Parking meters will help to ensure that bus traffic will be able to operate at reasonable speed and buses are at present used by the majority of central city workers. I am satisfied that commuting by private cars which congest city streets by all day kerbside parking cannot be allowed to cause inconvenience to the public and dislocate business and public transport. What I have said indicates that I accept that prima facie there is a case for the introduction of parking meters in the central city area, but when I formally receive the Garda proposals in this regard I shall of course consider any representations made, in particular the views of the local authority.

So much for the traffic that uses the roads and now as to the roads themselves. First I should say that, while traffic continued to increase, there was a substantial shortfall in the revenue from motor taxation for 1966/67 due to a number of factors, including a substantial drop in the number of new vehicles registered. The shortfall in the income of the Fund amounted in all to £550,000, an estimate of £9.75 million having realised only £9.2 million.

The shortfall would have been serious enough in itself but it occurred at a time when commitments, incurred in the expectation of a continuing surge of revenue, had risen to a critical figure—£6,500,000 on 31st March, 1967, compared with £5,200,000 on 31st March 1966. Corrective action was necessary. If this were to take the form of extra money for roads, it could be secured only by extra taxation or at the expense of other programmes such as those for housing, education and health. It was necessary, therefore, to reduce the Road Fund allocations for 1967/68 and this was effected chiefly by reducing the Main Road Improvement Grant. Fortunately the effect on the works programme of local authorities was not what the reduction in allocations would suggest. The total of grants allocated in a particular year is not an exact measure of the likely expenditure on roads in that year because the grants allocated will not all be spent in that year. This is due to timelags associated with land acquisition, the preparation of plans, specifications and the placing of contracts.

In last year's debate on the Estimate for my Department reference was made to various studies which have been undertaken into important aspects of road policy by my Department and by An Foras Forbartha. What I might call research of this kind goes on the whole time and is extremely important. The establishment of An Foras Forbartha, however, enabled it to be carried out on a planned, comprehensive scale. The staff of An Foras engaged on roads has now been brought up to a full working standard. Their work is grouped in three sections— road traffic, road construction and road safety.

A programme of work has been put in hands, not merely on research, since the scope of the Institute's activities goes beyond that to education and training as well. A number of courses for engineers have been conducted. Perhaps one of the most hopeful of the jobs which An Foras have undertaken is the collection, in co-operation with the Gardaí and the Central Statistics Office, of up-to-date statistics on road accidents with a view to conducting a scientific analysis of the factors involved and recommending the remedial action that might be taken. It will be some time before sufficient data are built up to give the end product of remedial action, and in this matter of road accidents I would be slow to hold out the hope of a magic answer. But I personally am convinced that this is the way to tackle the problem and I am more than hopeful that this method will pay in the long run.

Last year a grant of £42,280 was made from the Road Fund to An Foras for road research. An Foras works in very close association with my Department. It also has the assistance of very active committees of experts in the various areas of research and this ensures both the quality and practicality of the work done. Close contact is also maintained with research being carried out abroad.

The current work programme of An Foras includes, in addition to the items I have mentioned already, research on traffic signs, systematic traffic counting, road standards, pavement design, and road drainage. It has appointed consultants to prepare a report on street lighting and this report will be available shortly. Grants for post-graduate research have been made to University College, Dublin, and Trinity College Engineering Schools for investigations into the characteristics of peat subgrades and boulder clays, respectively.

Good progress at both local and regional levels has been maintained with the physical planning programme. The 1st October this year was the date before which development plans were required to be made under the Local Government (Planning and Development) Act, 1963. By the 1st October, 78 plans had been made. The Act enables extensions of the deadline to be allowed in particular cases and 40 planning authorities have applied for extensions.

The position is, therefore, that over 44 per cent of all development plans were made by the 1st October, and, taking into account the position which has been reached in the remaining areas, progress generally is satisfactory.

I want to commend those planning authorities who have been the pacemakers; those who have overcome their difficulties and made their plans within the three years stipulated by the Act. I accpet that the failure of other planning authorities to emulate their example could, in the big majority of cases, be attributed to reasons beyond their control. It was clear for some time before 1st October that circumstances were conspiring to make full compliance with the statutory deadline impossible.

From the beginning, planning authorities were working under a considerable handicap in that it was, and still is, difficult to recruit qualified planners. My Department and An Foras Forbartha have done what they could to fill this gap by providing advice and guidance for planning authorities, including the organisation of courses and seminars for local planning staffs. Planning courses are now established in the College of Technology, Bolton Street, and in University College, Dublin. Trainee planners have been recruited by my Department and Dublin Corporation also are taking steps to recruit trainees. The prospects of a progressive improvement in the supply of qualified planners are brightening.

The local elections earlier this year interrupted progress with the preparation of planning programmes. In a big number of areas new members were elected who had to familiarise themselves with planning policies and proposals. In addition, the time needed to comply properly with the statutory provisions for public consultation in regard to draft plans had not been fully appreciated by many planning authorities. The draft plans were on public display for three months and representations and objections made during that period have to be considered by the councils before the plans are made. Ratepayers making objection are entitled, on request, to be heard orally. Considerable interest was evinced in the draft plans and it is important that councils should fully consider the views of the public, even if this involves some delay in making the plans.

This is a part of the planning process which I would not like to see rushed. Where a council genuinely needs more time to consider representations I am not denying it to them, within reason. I must make it clear, however, that it would be unwise of any planning authority to seek to exploit this situation to procrastinate in making their plan. Each application for an extension is considered on its individual merits and an extension will not be given unless I am satisfied that the planning authority is making reasonable progress. Planning authorities who have not yet made their plans will be expected to complete the task within the extended periods allowed. I am confident that the majority of the outstanding development plans will be made by the end of the present year and the balance before the 31st March next. It is important that development plans should be generally operational as soon as possible and every effort will be maintained to secure this objective.

As the title of the Planning and Development Act implies, development is the essential corollary of meaningful planning. The Act has brought about a radical change in the purpose and potential of local government. It has placed local authorities in a strong position to assume a positive role in promoting economic and social development at local level. They must avail of the initiative so provided and make the most of their opportunities and resources. Physical planning is very much a matter of creating the right environment for new activity. Local authorities must exploit and supplement their planning activities by promotional work aimed at increasing investment, employment and the circulation of money in their areas. It is difficult to overlook the importance of the development plan machinery in this regard. I see the plans as blueprints for local development.

A well-conceived development plan will make for close co-ordination in the activities of local authorities in housing, the provision of services and the improvements of communications. It will enable these programmes to be related to private investment needs. It will be the framework within which planning authorities will provide sites for housing—both local authority and private—and direct incentives for private enterprise, such as industrial sites, the promotion of renewal in cities and towns, and the development of local amenities. To make the most of these opportunities, planning authorities will need to cultivate an active development outlook and to give increasing attention to the promotional aspects of local government responsibility.

The first development plans are relatively simple documents. Their purpose is to give expression to a basic planning policy and to provide a framework for development in the coming five years. In many areas special traffic and other basic studies are in progress and the results of these will have to be incorporated in future plans or in amendments of the initial plans. Planning is a continuous process and the Act provides that the development plans must be reviewed at least once in every five years, thus enabling the authorities to take account of experience and of new requirements. In themselves, however, these first plans are important and valuable as the beginning of comprehensive local planning for development. The plan programme has generated much discussion, and some controversy, about local development proposals. This is a very welcome indication of growing public interest in the work of local planning authorities and in the potential of planning.

The regional planning studies which are being carried out by United Nations consultants in association with An Foras Forbartha are due to be completed in March next. The purpose of the studies is to provide information on the opportunities and needs which exist in regard to regional development and also to provide advice on the means by which regional development potential might best be realised. The studies, therefore, are a major part of the ground work for further decisions on regional development policy.

In the Dublin and Limerick regions, studies have already been completed and outline development plans prepared by consultants. The views of local authorities and other interests on these recommendations, which are advisory, have been invited.

The programme of development plans under the Planning and Development Act and the Regional Studies Programme have very important implications for the future location and distribution of employment and of industrial growth. The designation of a systematic hierarchy of centres of economic and social growth and the promotion of regional development on such a basis is our best hope of effecting a change in the trend towards an unhealthy imbalance in national development as between different areas of the country. It is important that these problems should be tackled now, and that they should be tackled strenuously, because established patterns will not be changed overnight and there are already good grounds for concern.

The planning consultant for the Dublin region has estimated that, on the basis of current trends, the population of the Dublin metropolitan area is likely to increase by 200,000 in the next 20 years and he has made recommendations for a physical development plan to accommodate this expansion. These expectations are supported by the most recent census returns. As I have already emphasised, however, the consultant's recommendations are only advisory.

Such an expansion of Dublin would certainly create great problems of physical accommodation but, most important, it must be known and shown what the implications of Dublin growth on this scale would be for the rest of the country. Plans for the future expansion of Dublin must be part of a national development programme benefiting all regions. This will almost certainly involve a measure of concentration in promotional effort and investment in those areas which have the potential to fill the role of regional centres of economic and social growth. In this way a development momentum can be generated which will benefit all areas.

The report of the regional consultants will include advice on the best lines on which to proceed. Obviously this advice and the regional studies generally will need to be jointly evaluated when the study programme is completed. To help in this work a special committee, the regional Development Committee, has been established in my Department to advise on matters relating to regional planning and development. This committee is representative of all the Departments with development interests, and arrangements are actively under consideration to enable it to meet the greatly increased demands which will be made on it as we move from the stage of regional study to the formulation and promotion of regional development programmes.

The regional planning consultants have had a series of meetings locally with representatives of the planning authorities in each region. As the statutory planning authorities for their areas, local councils will have a major contribution to make in translating the idea of regional development into reality. I believe that a regional association of planning authorities, with which representatives of industrial and tourist interests would be associated, would be desirable for the successful promotion of development centres and other regional objectives. Such a group is already in existence in the Limerick region. It includes the chairman and officials of the planning authorities and representatives of the Shannon Free Airport Development Company. The Industrial Development Authority, the Regional Tourism Organisation and my Department are also represented.

I want to avail of this opportunity to commend the foresight and initiative of the local planning authorities and other local interests concerned in coming together in this way to discuss their common problems and to see what they can do jointly to advance their region. I propose to make early arrangements to encourage and facilitate the establishment of similar groups in other regions. The groups will be instrumental in spreading the regional outlook at local level, in involving the interests which they represent in concerted effort and in presenting the regional point of view at national level. Under the aegis of An Foras Forbartha, a model development plan for Galway City which will provide guidance on the application of modern planning techniques and standards to the development of growth centres has been completed and is at present with the United Nations who, I understand, will send it to An Foras shortly for publication. Other planning studies completed deal with matters such as the provision to be made in development plans for traffic in small towns and for industrial development.

Seminars have been held by An Foras to spread the fruits of research and experience for the benefit of all and I know that these have been of great value to local planners in particular in preparing their development plans. A welcome innovation in the planning work of An Foras during the year was the engagement of Irish consultant-planners to undertake, in addition to the study of the Connemara Gaeltacht, central area development in Waterford City, and shopping centre development in Arklow.

Before I leave the subject of planning and development, I must refer briefly to the question of planning appeals. The number of appeals under consideration on 1st April, 1966, was 901. The number of new appeals submitted in the year ended 31st March, 1967, was 1,229, compared with 1,344 in the preceding year, and 887 in 1964/ 65. Returns from planning authorities indicate that a total of 18,439 applications for planning permission were decided by them in 1966/67 and that permission was refused in only 1,955 of these cases. The fact that approval was given in respect of practically 90 per cent of all applications received suggests that, in general, the control powers given to planning authorities continued to be exercised in a reasonable manner.

The number of appeals disposed of during the year ended 31st March, 1967, was 1,402, of which 996 were formally determined by the Minister, 302 were withdrawn as a result of agreement between the parties or for other reasons, and 104 were late or invalid. Of the appeals formally determined in the year, 237 were allowed and 339 were allowed subject to conditions. The decision of the planning authority was confirmed in 420 cases.

While the position in regard to planning control has been satisfactory in most areas, I have been concerned to note in my consideration of appeals that the planning policies to which decisions on applications for permission are related, appear to be applied rather rigidly by some planning authorities. As a result, a number of appeals lodged are subsequently withdrawn because, in the course of consideration of the appeals, ideas emerge as to ways in which objections could be overcome and a mutually satisfactory solution achieved.

I have recently written to all planning authorities suggesting that the number of appeals could be reduced if they adopted a less rigid line in relation to development proposals, especially those of minor significance or, wherever feasible, suggested to an applicant how objections to the proposal for which he has sought permission could be overcome. As an alternative to outright refusal of permission, planning authorities should examine the possibility of granting permission subject to conditions regarding changes designed to correct defects in the plans lodged.

The ultimate objective of the Local Government (Planning and Development) Act, 1963, is to secure the proper planning and development of all areas in the interests of the common good. In the process, the aim of planning authorities should be to reflect public needs and public wishes to the greatest extent feasible and, at the same time, to endeavour to eliminate any valid grounds for grievance as to the validity of particular objectives of local planning policy. For this reason. I have reminded the authorities of the importance of giving reasons for refusal, or for conditions, which are informative and helpful.

A brief reference to some policy stated in the development plan will not suffice unless it is clear what the objective is and how it would be contravened by the development proposed. In this way the applicant (and, in appeal cases, the Minister) will have a clearer idea of how it is considered that the proposals would contravene the development plan. This is particularly important where the development plan does not imply absolute exclusion of the type of development proposed and it is necessary to bring out in the grounds for refusal the reasonableness of applying the provisions of the plan in the particular case. Where there are other good reasons for refusal not related to the development plan, these should also be given since it is the interest of intending developers to know all the objections to their proposals if they are considering amendment of their plans or the making of an appeal.

I look forward to the full co-operation of local planning authorities in giving effect to my suggestions. These should increase public awareness and acceptance of the broad aims of planning policies and should substantially reduce the proportion of planning decisions which are made the subject of appeals.

The estimate for grants under the derelict sites and amenity grants scheme, for which provision is made in Subhead G, shows an increase of £10,000 over the provisions for 1966-67.

A great deal remains to be done to improve the appearances of town and countryside and I would like to see more widespread use being made of the grants available for that purpose. Grants of up to 50 per cent of approved cost are available to local authorities and local development groups towards the cost of parks, open spaces, the provision or improvement of walks and means of access, landscaping planting and other works of visual or recreational amenity.

Progress was maintained during 1966-67 in speeding up the consideration of proposals for the compulsory acquisition by local authorities of land and water rights. On 1st April, 1966, the number of cases on hands was 55. During the year 41 new proposals were received and 58 cases were decided. The number on hands at 31st March, 1967, was 38.

Subheads K to O include provision for the scheme formerly administered by the Special Employment Schemes Office, with the exception of the provision for Miscellaneous Schemes (Minor Marine Works) transferred to the Vote for Public Works and Buildings.

The Special Employment Schemes Office ceased to exist as a separate entity on 1st April last. The staff of the Office has been transferred to my Department, and, pending the reorganisation of the administrative procedure, they are continuing to operate the schemes as a Section of the Department. The purpose of the transfer was to enable me to consider the re-organisation of the various services in the interests of greater efficiency and economy. I now have actively in train certain measures to improve the method of administration.

The grants for Urban and Rural Employment Schemes (Subheads K and L) will continue, as in the past, to be administered through the local authorities, but under the undivided control of my Department. It is proposed to preserve the principle of allocating these grants by reference to the number of unemployed, and of requiring a local contribution.

The staff of the Special Employment Schemes Office was occupied almost wholly in the administration of the Minor Employment, Bog Development and Rural Improvement Schemes. It has been felt for some time that the maintenance of a separate organisation for this purpose was excessively costly and that the financial provision for the schemes and the personnel employed could be more effectively used otherwise. The Government decided that these three schemes should in future be administered as a single scheme and that the county councils should be asked to operate it. Some contribution by landholders will be involved in the case of every scheme, but for the poorer areas where the average land valuation is low, the rates of contribution will be minimal. Thus, the landholders' contribution under the new scheme will be 2½ per cent for average land valuations under £5, compared with 10 per cent under the Rural Improvements Scheme. Furthermore, unemployed persons registered at the employment exchanges will continue to get priority in employment. Details of the proposed scheme have been notified to the county councils with a view to its being put into operation next year. For the present year the existing schemes are being operated as formerly.

The allocations of grants under the Urban and Rural Employment Schemes subheads for the current year's employment programmes were notified to the local authorities on 25th May last and schemes to absorb the grants are at present being received and considered in my Department.

All Deputies representing rural constituencies were notified on 1st May last of the intention to allocate this year's grants under the Minor Employment and Bog Development Schemes Subheads. All the grants for this year's Minor Employment and Bog Development Schemes have now been issued. The Rural Improvements Scheme provision has also been allocated in full.

Subhead P of the Vote includes a sum of £18,500 for grants to An Chomhairle Leabharlanna under the Public Libraries Act, 1947. Of this amount, £2,500 represents the State contribution towards the current expenses of An Chomhairle and the balance, £16,000, is to enable An Chomhairle to assist library authorities by providing grants of up to 50 per cent of the loan charges on library development projects. Under this scheme of assistance, which was introduced in 1961, the library services have undergone a modest but steady improvement. Subsidies paid to library authorities amount to £9,683 in 1965-66, and £12,253 in 1966-67, compared with this year's provision of £16,000. A number of projects are at various stages of planning, and I hope that the next few years will see a considerable improvement in the public library service.

The value of purchases by local authorities from official contractors appointed under the Combined Purchasing Act, 1939, continues to increase. Purchases in the contract year ended 30th June, 1967, totalled approximately £5.58 million, compared with £5.40 million in the year ended 30th June, 1966.

The total revenue expenditure in the present financial year of local authorities, excluding vocational education committees, committees of agriculture and harbour authorities, is estimated at £104.71 million, an increase of approximately £9 million on the actual expenditure for 1966/67. This expenditure is financed from three main sources of revenue—State grants, rates, and miscellaneous receipts such as rents for local authority houses. In the current year it is estimated that 52 per cent of expenditure will be met from State grants, 32 per cent from rates and 16 per cent from miscellaneous receipts. It is noteworthy that the percentage met by the Exchequer has been consistently rising in recent years. This percentage was 39.2 per cent in 1938/39, 42.6 per cent in 1956/57, approximately 50 per cent. The increase in the present year is due in the main to the extended rate relief provided under the Rates on Agricultural Land (Relief) Act, 1967, which in effect derated land valuations under £20 and gave further reliefs on a sliding scale in the case of land holdings in the valuation range £20 to £33. Apart from this specific measure, however, the basic trend is clear—an ever-growing proportion of local authority expenditure is being met from State funds.

The services provided by local authorities are vital to the well-being of the community and there is constant public demand for their further development. This inevitably raises the question of meeting the cost. There are obvious limits to the extent to which services can be transferred to the State or their cost met from State funds, without undermining the local government system as we know it. On the other hand there are also practical limits on the independent revenue which the local authorities can raise under the present system. There is no easy solution to the problems of local finance and taxation. The inter-departmental committee which has been examining the question has submitted two interim reports, the first dealing with the valuation system and the second, with exceptions, from the remissions of rates. I expect to receive a third report in the near future. With a view to encouraging constructive public discussion of the matter the Government decided to publish summarised versions of the reports already received. No decision has been made on the recommendations set out in these reports and I would like to take this occasion to invite observations from interested persons and bodies on these reports or generally on the question of local finance and taxation.

Capital expenditure by local authorities in 1966/67 is estimated to have amounted to £24.047 million compared with an actual expenditure of £23,246 million in the preceding year. Expenditure in the present year is expected to show a substantial rise. The bulk of this capital expenditure requirements comes from the Local Loans Fund. The total net indebtedness of local authorities at 31st March, 1967, was estimated to be £210.17 millions, compared with £193.62 millions on 31st March, 1966. These figures of indebtedness do not, of course, represent a deadweight burden on local funds. To a considerable degree the repayments involved are subsidised by the State—as in the case of loans raised for housing, water supply and sewerage schemes—or are met by annuities payable in respect of loans advanced by local authorities for the purchase of private houses.

(Cavan): I move:

That the Vote be referred back for reconsideration.

I do so in order to register protest against the failure of the Minister to provide reasonable housing accommodation at reasonable rents for the lower income group and also as a protest against the failure of the Minister and his Department to organise financial assistance for the upper middle income group and the middle income group who are prepared to build houses for themselves if the Minister organises finance for them at a reasonable rate of interest.

I also wish to register an emphatic protest against the complete and utter neglect by the Minister of rural Ireland, of the people of rural Ireland living in backward areas. I refer to the lack of operation of the Rural Improvements Scheme. I also wish to register a protest against the failure of the Government to implement the regional water scheme announced some years ago. I also wish to draw the attention of the House and the country to the unsatisfactory operation of the provisions of the Planning and Development Act, 1963.

I propose to deal with the housing situation first. The Minister also made it the first item he dealt with in his speech. That is only right because the housing of our people is of the utmost importance. The Minister has given figures purporting to show that more is being done for housing now than was done in other times. He compares one year with another. He tells us that more money is being spent this year than was spent last year. You can do almost anything with statistics. It is unnecessary to repeat that they are unreliable. One knows, for example, that it takes more money to build the same number of houses now than it did some years ago.

I do not propose to follow the Minister in this litany of figures and statistics. I propose to demonstrate that the Minister has failed miserably in his duty to solve the housing problem by pointing out that in the city of Dublin alone approximately 10,000 families are awaiting housing. There were 267 more families seeking housing in the city in October, 1967, than there were in July, 1965. The utter failure of the Minister in Dublin can be adequately demonstrated by again putting on record what is a fact: Dublin Corporation at present will consider a housing application only if it is made by a family of four, living, sleeping and eating in one single room.

That is not true.

(Cavan): It is true. The Deputy can make his speech afterwards. According to my information, Dublin Corporation will only consider an application on the ground of overcrowding.

We are housing single people.

(Cavan): On the ground of overcrowding, where there are four people living in one room. I say that is a disgrace. It is an absolute indictment of the Government. The Corporation are really afraid to investigate fully the position of unsatisfactory and unfit houses because, if they did, the list would swell considerably. I do not know whether the Deputies opposite take the view that a good job is being done on housing. I do not know whether it is being suggested that the people have no complaint about the performance of the Minister on housing. I believe the Taoiseach concedes that the housing situation is bad. Speaking at the Fianna Fáil Árd Fheis recently, he is reported as having said:

Local authority housing continues to command an urgent priority in the allocation of available capital resources. Thousands of families are still living in unfit dwellings and in overcrowded conditions. Thousands more are living in unsuitable dwellings or sharing with other families. We cannot accept that enough has been done in housing, or is being done until every family has a decent home of its own.

That corroborates what I am saying, that the Minister has fallen down on housing. According to the Taoiseach, there are thousands of people living in unfit and overcrowded houses. I have just said there are 10,000 families in the city of Dublin seeking houses.

The position is much the same throughout the country. Every Deputy who is a member of a local authority knows that when a house becomes vacant there are, without exaggeration, a couple of dozen applicants for it. Every Deputy knows that in rural Ireland proper, there are people living in unsuitable and unfit houses. They are on a waiting list and are not and have not been housed. The Taoiseach's statement is certainly a condemnation of the present Minister and his predecessor.

In the First Programme for Economic Expansion, published in 1958, the Government put in black and white that our housing conditions compared favourably with those of any other comparable country in Europe and that money being spent on housing could be diverted to productive purposes. That is on record and can be quoted verbatim, if necessary. It cannot be contradicted. The same Government repeated that five years later in 1963, when they said that the statements and policies outlined in the First Programme were still valid. That, in my opinion, shows that the Government failed to assess the housing situation in 1958 or 1963. The statements contained in the First and Second Programmes are completely inconsistent with the Taoiseach's statement at the Árd Fheis that thousands of people are living in unsuitable houses and that we could not consider that enough had been done for housing until every family which wanted a house or was in need of a house had adequate housing accommodation.

I could go on this theme of housing. I have given the House the figures for the city of Dublin, and I have given the House the Taoiseach's statement which appears to accept those figures, although some Deputies opposite do not. The Minister should bring himself up to date with the housing position. He should bring himself up to date with the cost of building houses. Many years ago the Minister's predecessor fixed the subsidy value of houses at £1,650 and stated that he would contribute two-thirds, or one-third of the loan charges, as the case might be, of the cost of building houses, up to £1,650. At that time £1,650 went a long way towards building a house. I suppose that a local authority house could have been built then for £1,750 or £1,850.

We know now that the cost of building a local authority house has increased to £2,400 or £2,500 in the country, and more in the city. Yet this subsidy ceiling of £1,650 still stands and nothing is being done about it, notwithstanding the fact that since that subsidy was fixed by the Minister's predecessor, the Government, by positive action, increased the cost of building houses by the turnover tax and the wholesale tax. The net result is that when houses are built they are too expensive, and either have to be let at rents which are beyond the capacity of the tenants to pay, or a considerable impost has to be put on the rates. Therefore I challenge the Minister to justify this subsidy ceiling of £1,650 in 1967.

Another point I should like to make is that the Minister's predecessor encouraged the local authorities to buy sufficient land for their own housing needs for the foreseeable future. A circular was issued to all the local authorities breaking the then existing rule under which local authorities were permitted to acquire land for their immediate needs only. They were told to go ahead and acquire sufficient land to meet their needs on a long-term basis. That was a wise direction, but those local authorities were entitled to assume, because the contrary was not stated, that if they obeyed the Minister's direction and bought land, it would be paid for out of the Local Loans Fund in the ordinary way.

Some small local authorities were surprised, and very surprised indeed, to find that when they paid £6,000 or £7,000 for sites—which are considerable sums for a small authority—and applied to the Minister to sanction a loan in the ordinary way, they were told that no money was available, that the Minister would not sanction loans out of the Local Loans Fund at subsidised interest, and that they would have to go and raise money in the banks on short-term loans at full rates of interest without any assistance whatsoever, good, bad or indifferent. I wonder was that the intention of the Minister when he advised the local authorities to buy land on the basis of their long-term requirements, because if it was he should have told them so. Even at this stage the local authorities which committed themselves on the strength of the Minister's circular should now be assisted in the normal way by getting the subsidy towards the interest charges on this land. Otherwise they will simply have to dispose of the land.

I should like to say something about the Government's failure to properly organise the private sector in its efforts towards house building. Much credit is due to people of modest means who went ahead and built their own houses. If those people did not build their own houses, the housing position, bad and all as it is, would certainly be unthinkable. As I say, some people were driven into building their own houses and taking on commitments which they were unable to afford as a result of the failure of the Minister to provide local authority houses. We know that farmers with valuations of less than £25 get substantial grants. They can get as much as £900. I am prepared to concede that that is a sizeable amount, and that it is a help, but it is still a great burden on a farmer with a valuation of less than £25 to build a house even with the assistance of a grant of £900. As I say, something has been done in that respect, and credit must be given for it.

The class I want to deal with are the people earning £1,200, £1,400 or £1,500 a year. In this day and age it cannot be said that those people are wealthy, or that they do not need assistance or encouragement to build their own houses. Yet, the position is that a man earning £1,300 in 1948 got a standard State grant—I am speaking of standard State grants now—of £275 towards the cost of the house, and the man earning £1,300 in 1967 gets the same standard State grant of £275, notwithstanding the fact that the effective value of that grant has been reduced to approximately £150 by the turnover tax and the wholesale tax and that the devaluation which has just come upon us will further reduce it.

Has the Minister any proposals to offset that reduction? Does he think it reasonable that a man earning £1,300 a year in 1967 should get the same grant as a man earning £1,300 a year got in 1948? I do not. More encouragement should be given to that income group to build their own houses. It is a good investment to encourage people to build their own houses because a man who builds his own house will take pride in it and look after it. Given the proper encouragement, people living in local authority houses will build their own houses and leave the local authority houses available for people who cannot afford to house themselves and who must be housed at public expense.

Earlier today the Minister for Finance was questioned as to the effect of devaluation on housing loans and he stated, if I remember correctly, that the Government had decided that the present rate of interest charged under the Housing and Loans Acts would not be increased. We are glad to hear that, but I know from my experience that the ceiling under the Housing and Loans Acts of £1,200 is inadequate. A man earning over £1,200 a year cannot now borrow from the local authority under what was the Small Dwellings Acquisition Act and is now the Loans and Grants Act. A man who is earning more than £1,200 approximately does not qualify for a small dwellings loan and has to seek a loan elsewhere if he wants to build a house. If he is living in a small town, or, indeed, a sizeable town in one of the provinces, his application for a loan will not be entertained by a building society. He cannot get the money from a bank. The Minister may say in reply that the local authority can organise finance for that man by arranging a loan from the bank, but the Minister knows that that loan is a very short-term loan at a higher rate of interest, and whereas an individual could service a loan at £200 a year under the Small Dwellings Acquisition Act it would cost him £300 a year under the other scheme.

I sincerely urge the Minister to be more liberal with his grants to the £1,200 to £1,600 a year group and to be more liberal in organising for them finance which they are prepared to pay back. If he does so, he will create national assets in the form of houses which in the long run will pay a good dividend both to the Government and to the country.

Local authorities should be encouraged to service land for house building, that is, to provide water, sewerage and roads, because that is something that individuals find it impossible to do for themselves and if it is done by a contractor in a group scheme it adds considerably to the cost of the houses.

Years ago, long before any talk of devaluation or of high interest rates came up, I advocated at the Association of Municipal Authorities that the Government should subsidise interest for house building in the private sector. It would be a sound investment which would show a good return. There is an amazing number of people who are anxious to build their own houses. While one would admire them for it it often does appear that they are taking on more than they can afford, but it is evidence of their anxiety to own their own houses and that they would take a pride in having their own houses and would look after them well.

Rents in general are being increased by the failure of the Government to increase the subsidy. I should not say by the failure of the Government to increase the subsidy; I should say by the failure of the Government to keep the subsidy up to the level of the cost of building a house—the failure of the Government to bring the subsidy up to date. I do not believe that differential rents should be applied indiscriminately or at all to houses which were built 30 or 40 years ago.

The next item I have placed in my notes in order of importance is the extraordinary performance of the Minister for Finance and the Minister for Local Government in relation to the Rural Improvement Scheme. The Minister dealt with it in a very brief paragraph in his introductory statement. As Deputies know, the Rural Improvement Scheme was a scheme under which dwellers in rural Ireland had the lanes to their houses repaired for a small local contribution with State aid. It was a scheme whereby two or more people living in a lane could apply to the Rural Improvement Scheme Office for a grant, which was usually 80 per cent to 90 per cent of the cost of doing the lane. Under this grant, a good job was made of the lane. In many cases the lane was then taken over by the county council and maintained thereafter by the county council. I often wonder if Deputies, city Deputies in particular, realise the plight of people who reside along these lanes. There may be anything from two to ten families living along a lane for which nobody was responsibility. That lane is the only means of access to their homes. In order to reach the main road they may have to walk a mile, or more, over a waterlogged, potholed lane; when they reach the main road they see millions of pounds being spent on their improvement. This is very frustrating for them. This is a serious contributing cause, I put it no stronger than that, to the depopulation of rural Ireland. I am very familiar with this problem. I am sure the Minister will accept something that was said at the Fianna Fáil Árd-Fheis by the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries. He said:

One of the real reasons for the low marriage rate was that many attractive young girls had gone away either out of necessity or by their own desire.

There is nothing better calculated to driving young girls out of rural Ireland than having to walk ankle-deep in slush in order to reach their homes.

The Minister, in his opening speech, said that in the next 20 years the population of Dublin city is expected to increase enormously. In support of that statement he quoted the consultant town planner for the city of Dublin. I should like now to quote the consultant town planner to Cavan County Council in relation to the population trend there. At page 13 of the report, he says:

The most serious implication of the decline in the numbers of young people in the county is that the level of population replacement is falling rapidly with the result that shortly the rate of depopulation may show an alarming increase. In other words, for the first time in a century at least the birth rate is in danger of falling below the death rate and, as a result, the total population of the county will fall for a time, even if emigration is halted completely.

Cavan is not regarded by the Land Commission as a congested area. The Minister has plans to deal with the growth of population in Dublin. I ask him now to bring forth plans to deal with the falling population in counties such as Cavan. The abandonment— abandonment is all I can call it—of the rural improvement scheme will greatly accelerate the flight from rural Ireland. If that is Government policy, then let us be clear about it. This scheme was suspended for all practical purposes by the Department of Finance in August, 1965. Since then it has been almost impossible to get a grant from the Board of Works. We were told that as from 1st April this year the scheme was taken over from the Board of Works by the Department of Local Government. There was no improvement following that transfer. Now the Minister tells us he is handing the scheme over to the local authorities; it will be operated by them under the direct supervision of the Department of Local Government. Actually he is handing over more than the scheme. He is handing over the scheme plus an accumulation of arrears, arrears it will take a considerable time to wipe out.

I want to quote now from a communication issued by Cavan County Council to applicants under this scheme:

A considerable number of applications which were not dealt with by the Department of Local Government Special Employment Schemes Section have been referred to this office for priority under the council's scheme. Consequently it is not possible at this stage to state when this application can be considered. An official application form will be forwarded to you in due course.

That is the reply an unfortunate applicant receives, an unfortunate applicant who has to walk over a waterlogged, potholed laneway. I am sure other county councils are in the same position as Cavan County Council. Now why is this? It is because the Minister is handing over the scheme to the county councils on the basis of a fixed sum averaged on the amount spent in the last three years. In the last three years it was utterly impossible to get any worthwhile grants for this purpose. Cavan County Council is now being told to operate this scheme and bear all the expenses of operation. They are being given the princely sum of £14,000 per year for the work involved. I do not think I am extravagant when I say that £14,000 will provide considerably less than 20 average grants. I appeal to the Minister now to do something to rectify the present unsatisfactory situation, and to get on with the improvement of these by-roads and access to people's houses. If he does, he will have the complete support of every Member of this House. If any Deputy knew the real situation and appreciated the difficulties under which these people are living, he would energetically support my appeal to the Minister.

When these boreens, lanes, by-roads —call them what you will-are repaired under these schemes, the various county councils are prepared to take them over and they then cost the Government nothing more. I note from the Minister's speech that, under this scheme, there will be a local contribution. There has always been a local contribution: I am not saying for or against that. However, if this local contribution is to continue, it should be compulsory and it should be levied on the ratepayers along the lane in their rates. From time to time, one meets the impossible or difficult person or two who will not pay their contribution and who will hold up the whole scheme. I suggest, therefore, that, if there is a local contribution, it should be compulsory and collected as the rates are collected. There is no difficulty about that and there is plenty of precedent for it. I leave the subject of rural improvement schemes on a note of great disappointment at the Minister's performance to date and in the hope that he will make himself familiar with the position and will urge the Government to make available a substantial amount of money to clear up this problem.

It is the duty of the Opposition to be critical of the Minister's performance in these matters. I now want to refer to the reduction in the road grants this year. Just on the eve of the local elections, the road grants were reduced by, I think, £¾ million. They were reduced all over the country by very substantial sums, by as much as £46,000 in one county and by as much as, I think, £100,000 in another county. I do not purport to give the exact figures but they were slashed and slashed considerably within months of an assurance from the Government that a vast injection of money would be made into the west of Ireland to keep up employment and the provision of amenities there.

The reduction of these road grants means that fewer roads are being made and less employment is being given. Every county councillor who goes to the bother of making enquiries about the number of men employed this year on road-making, as compared with this time last year, will find that fewer men are employed this year for the reason that grants were considerably reduced. Again, it is the county roads that suffer as a result of the reduction in the grants. Motor taxation has considerably increased and the Department of Finance now draw a substantial amount from the Road Fund. I know that the Minister for Finance and the Minister for Local Government deny that it is a raid on the Road Fund and say that this particular increased taxation on motor vehicles was imposed for the general Exchequer but the fact of the matter is that more money is now going into the Road Fund, on the overall picture, while less money is coming from the Road Fund to the county councils as compared with last year. I protest against that and say that the effect is that fewer roads are being made and less employment is being given.

I come now to regional water schemes which were first mooted about 1959. I think it was in 1959 that the Department of Local Government asked local authorities to speed up their piped water schemes in rural areas. The net result was that all the county councils employed consultants and planners and had long discussions at county council meetings, with big headlines in the local papers. Everybody was led to believe that piped water would be available on practically the same basis as rural electrification and that every house would have piped running water at least within reasonable distance of it. People's hopes were built up. That was not bad enough but county managers—whether by direction from the Custom House or otherwise— proceeded to close down on the provision of pumps in rural areas. They said it would be a waste of money to provide pumps because piped water was coming and that they could not justify the expenditure of money on the provision of pumps for groups of houses. On the assurance that regional water schemes were on the way and that any money spent on other provision for water would be money wasted, they ceased to encourage water group schemes.

Imagine the surprise of the people when, this year, they discovered that their county councils were told that all the regional schemes would cost £36 million, which it is far beyond the capacity to pay, and that they will have to revise the whole plan. We do not know who will get regional water supplies now or when. This is not the fault of the present Minister for Local Government but of his predecessor in office who was the great promiser, the great provider of plans, but the man who did not deliver the goods. The net result of that promise in operation was that the people of rural Ireland are now worse off for water than formerly because the regional schemes will not come and the pump group schemes have been closed down.

That sort of thing is not good enough. People's hopes should not be built up only to be knocked down like that. Water is most important. I heard the Minister's predecessor waxing eloquent on this point at the Association of Municipal Authorities last year. One would think the water would be there in a few weeks. He spoke about the necessity for water and the drudgery of farmers' wives carrying water, and so on, but now the whole thing is knocked on the head so far as I can see from the statement issued some time ago and from the Minister's speech. Elaborate schemes of this sort should not be announced unless there is some foundation for saying they will be implemented and unless there is a reasonably good chance of their implementation. It only leads to disappointment and frustration and people are worse off after the promise than before it.

Something of the same kind happened in regard to swimming pools. I remember the Minister's predecessor blaming local authorities and groups of individuals for failing to take up his swimming pool scheme. He was disappointed that it had not met with a better response, that there was not more interest in it and that there were not more applications for the swimming pool grants. Groups of young people came together in various towns, formed committees and made plans for swimming pools. Then when they applied for a grant they were told: "That is all shelved". It is stated in the Minister's speech on this Estimate that swimming pools grants will have to be deferred. Again, that scheme was introduced and publicised at a time when the Minister's predecessor must have known that the likelihood of implementing it was slim indeed. That sort of playacting is not good enough. It leads the youth of the country to lose faith in promises of a Departmental nature.

I have been asked to meetings where people that I regarded as very young, teenagers, were full of enthusiasm about the swimming pool scheme and on the assurances I had heard from the Minister for Local Government, Deputy Blaney, I assured them that there did not seem to be any difficulty in getting grants if they had plans and if their specifications were right but they know now that the whole thing was a nasty fairy tale. Could the Minister assure even the groups who have perhaps acquired sites or in some way committed themselves as a result of assurances given, that they will receive financial assistance as promised?

The Minister dealt at considerable length with the Planning and Development Act, 1963. As he said and as I agree, there must be planning. There must be some order in the building of houses and factories and the layout of parks and so on, but I want to tell the Minister that there is considerable dissatisfaction with the operation of the Planning and Development Act particularly in regard to appeals. The fact that there are only between 1,000 and 2,000 appeals does not affect the matter. I ask the Minister now to take politics out of the Planning and Development Act and I am certain there are politics and plenty of politics in it. I am certain that a man who finds himself involved in a planning appeal now is much more anxious to get the ear of somebody who has influence with the Minister than he is to get a planning consultant or architect or engineer to fight his case.

The people have no faith in the present system. Why should they? It can happen, and has happened, that two appeals dealing with a similar project go to the Minister on the same date. The application which was refused by the planning authority is granted within a matter of a couple of months and the application which has been granted by the planning authority is put on the long finger for months and months. Eventually, an oral hearing is ordered and the stage is reached where the other man has gone on and built his project and the point of the second appeal is, of course, completely lost. It is not right that the political head of a Department should be in a position to make or mar an individual or that he should, by a decision, be able to add enormously to, or take very considerably from the value of property. That is the position under the present system. I urge the Minister—I know I cannot advocate legislation in a speech on an Estimate— to take politics out of town planning and until such time as he does things will go from bad to worse.

The Minister dealt at considerable length with road traffic and its problems. No doubt the enormous volume of traffic on the roads and especially in Dublin city has created a problem which needs to be tackled and the Minister will have the assistance of the House and every reasonable Deputy in any reasonable steps he takes to solve the problem. I should like to make a very brief reference to the Naas Road. There was a certain amount of panic following a few unfortunate accidents on the Naas Road. I do not think that the speed limits imposed have solved the problem.

There is a feeling of fear and confusion once one enters that road at the present time. There seems to be a fierce volume of traffic all moving along at about 50 miles an hour bumper to bumper. I do not know whether there have been any serious accidents since the speed limits were introduced, but I fear that they have solved nothing. I hope it is only a temporary expedient until such time as the Minister has received a full report on that road and until such time as he takes steps to make better entries to and exits from it. It is not sufficient to say that it would cost too much. The fact of the matter is that we have built a death trap here and we must make the road safe. We have built a motorway without putting on the necessary safety valves.

The Minister, in the concluding part of his speech, dealt with taxation and the shifting of taxation from the local authorities to the Exchequer. I do not know whether the Minister intends to revise the whole system of local taxation. I rather gathered from his speech that he may have something like that in mind. What I want to put on record is that, as far as I am concerned, the present system of local taxation is out-moded. As I said before, it may have been all right at the end of the last century when only people of property possessed money. Those conditions have gone, and it is a good job. However the present system is inequitable.

Take two local authority houses, side by side, with a £10 valuation, and take the rates, for easy calculation, at £3 in the £. The income of one of those houses may be £25, and the income of the house next door may be that of an old person living on social security of some description or another; yet the two of them pay £30 apiece rates. That is not equitable, and as far as I know, there is no way, under the present system, of relieving that person from the £30 rates.

In many towns in Ireland small shopkeepers have been almost pushed out of business by big combines, supermarkets and so on, and yet those people are taxed on their valuation without any reference, good bad or indifferent, to their capacity to pay. That is unfair. A system of taxation which has no regard whatever to the capacity of the person to pay cannot be justified. The example I have given of the two local authority houses highlights that. One can also take two shops in a town, one having a flourishing business, the other occupied by somebody who is doing a very small business, and they both have the same valuation. Each of those people could be paying £80 in rates; it might be no burden at all on one of them, but it could be a very serious burden on the other. As I say, the system is outdated and is unfair. It needs a lot of new thinking and a new approach.

There is one little thing about which I complained bitterly last year, that is, the operation of the derelict site grants scheme. I am very glad to say that, as far as the constituencies with which I am familiar are concerned, my words here seem to have been heard, because there was a considerable improvement in the operation of the scheme during the year, and even the token increase of £10,000 this year is welcome.

I think I have covered all the points with which I want to deal. Let me conclude by saying I am completely and utterly dissatisfied with the Minister's performance in housing. I am horrified with his decision practically to close down on the rural improvement schemes. A shabby trick was played on the country by his predecessor in regard to the regional water scheme and the swimming pool grants. I repeat also that the operation of the planning appeal machinery under the Planning and Development Act is totally unsatisfactory. For these reasons I am not satisfied with the Minister's Estimate.

Deputies could not be blamed for assuming that the Minister for Local Government on this occasion had some truly wonderful and spectacular news to convey to us in this House and to the country, especially by reason of the secrecy concerning the presentation of his brief. Heretofore the Minister has issued his brief to Deputies in advance. On this occasion we had his speech practically in three stages, and we had rather formed the opinion that it contained some great news for our people that the Minister was loath to reveal to us in advance. Imagine our amazement, that having gone through the 45 pages of the speech in question we discover there is not in any page of it one iota of hope for our people in respect of the problems with which they have to contend at the present time, particularly those people who are condemned to live in abominable housing circumstances.

Those of us who are thoroughly conversant with the housing problems of our people find it extremely difficult to understand the smug complacency of the Minister and his Government and the manner in which they try to cover up this great national scandal. The Minister's speech contained on this occasion much the same as ever, the very same palliatives, the same amount of verbiage, the same attempt at juggling figures as we have heard here in recent years. All this has been done to create the veneer of progress and pretend that all is well in matters appertaining to housing, water, sanitation and the like. No amount of camouflage can conceal that which we all know to be the fact, that we have in this small country of ours, a situation so utterly bad, so distressing and so abominable in terms of human suffering and human degradation that the recent revelations in the press, TV and the radio have rightly shocked the conscience of all civilised, right-thinking people. The spectacle of slums and squalor, of gross overcrowding in evilsmelling and insanitary hovels in this city and indeed throughout every town and our countryside, with its attendant moral and social evils, is no doubt a shocking revelation. It is an indictment of our central and local government authorities and is a great challenge to all of us who value the dignity of the human person, and indeed an affront to what we term a civilised community.

Lest I might seem to exaggerate this situation, I wish to back up my case with the relevant figures. The figures I quote are to be found in the main in the White Paper "Housing Progress and Prospects," issued by the Minister's Department, the census figures of 1961 and the various statistical abstracts available to all of us. According to the White Paper, there are 50,000 dwellings in use in this country which are incapable of repair at reasonable cost. Those 50,000 dwellings do not include the cities of Cork and Dublin. There are a further 40,000 houses unfit for living purposes, again outside of Dublin and Cork, and at a conservative estimate there are 90,000 houses urgently required at the present time. The census of 1961 revealed that there were 63,000 overcrowded dwellings. It also revealed that over 163,000 houses in the country were over 100 years old and I understand that 80 years is regarded as the normal life of a normal house. Therefore, this is the kind of problem we have to contend with. We also know, as public representatives, that apart from those figures, some 6,000 to 7,000 houses throughout the country become obsolete each year. In order to deal with cases of urgent need, as a very minimum, we should be building at least 14,000 houses per annum and the fact is that we are only building half that number.

The situation in respect of housing is becoming progressively worse and it is time this Government grappled effectively with the problem and recognised housing for what it is and must always remain, an essential social service, claiming priority with education and health. This Minister should see to it that the necessary money is made available so that a crash programme can be embarked on to end the scourge of the homeless. Lest the Minister or the Government be enamoured of the present situation or lest they might fool or dupe people into thinking that we were making reasonable progress in the matter of the elimination of the slums, let me assert that in spite of these grievous needs which have been with us for a long number of years, our rate of house building is the lowest in Europe. According to a recent UN survey, we have been building houses in this country at the rate of 3.5 houses per 1,000 inhabitants, the lowest figure in Europe, lower than Spain, and Spain would hardly be regarded as being in the top ten of the progressives of Europe or as a very affluent society.

The Government have been guilty of abject dereliction of duty in respect of the rehousing of our people and stand condemned from any viewpoint. We know that few local authorities build more than 25 dwellings a year. This is mainly because of the dead hand of the Department of Local Government falling so heavily upon them, withholding the necessary financial aid and impeding plans and programmes for the acceleration of the housing drive by every means which officials can devise. This situation, Sir, has come about because of the ineptitude of our Government and their failure to grapple effectively with the problem. As I have said, this Fianna Fáil Government, despite admonitions from these benches, have consistently refused to recognise housing as an essential social service which should not be left to private enterprise, in the hands of vested interests or the plaything of moneylenders, land speculators and property developers. These people are concerned with profit but housing concerns people and we in the Labour Party are concerned about people.

We find, too, that the Government while skimping in respect of housing, water, sanitary facilities, and the like, are lavishing money wastefully on unnecessary projects, in my opinion, such as skyscraper blocks of offices in this city and in other cities and luxury flats far beyond the means of the ordinary people. Millions of pounds are available for wasteful expenditure of this kind, while at the same time, hundreds of thousands of our people are condemned to a life-long purgatory in squalor and misery. We see this expenditure going on year in, year out, while at the same time, this essential service of housing is starved of resources.

We know, too, that the Government have allowed land prices, interest charges and rents to rise unbridled. Not only have they allowed these increases to come about, but they have recommended increases in certain circumstances, such as the implementation of the rationalisation of rents policy initiated by the Minister's predecessor, and they have condoned and ratified increases in other spheres such as interest charges. They have failed to acquire the necessary land for house-building purposes and it was particularly reprehensible that the Minister for Industry and Commerce should allow the building societies to increase the interest rates on all loans. This, I contend, was indefensible. These loans were secured many years ago at a rate of interest which the borrowers believed at that time was fixed. It came as a shock and caused deep dismay to those who borrowed when it transpired, when somebody quoted from a portion of small writing in their agreement the proof, that they were entitled to increase the interest charges.

There is, Sir, unfortunately, widespread indifference, callousness and a flagrant disregard for the plight of our homeless. We as a Government and as a people seem to have forgotten altogether the importance of housing in the life of a normal family. We seem to forget, as an allegedly Catholic and Christian community, that housing standards determine very largely people's attitude towards life. It affects their health and their happiness and certainly influences children, in particular, in their educational careers. The environment in which children are brought up will in large measure determine the kind of citizens they will be in after years.

We believe the children of the nation have a right to be reared in decent homes, in at least frugal comfort, instead of the squalor which so many thousands of them have to contend with in this city, in particular, and, indeed, throughout the country. We are all given to pious platitudes from time to time. We pretend to make much of the family as a unit of society, and, indeed, the family has been given a great place of privilege in our Constitution which marks it down as the "natural primary and fundamental unit group of Society, and as a moral institution possessing inalienable and imprescriptible rights, antecedent and superior to all positive law". It is time, Sir, we gave practical effect to the high sentiment contained in our Constitution in respect of the family and that as a first priority, as a first essential, we saw to it as a Christian Government that they be provided with decent homes. This then is one of the reasons why we say that housing is more important than the profit of the speculators. It is more important to us than the profit of the land speculator, property developer or the building societies. We believe that it must be taken out of the hands of these vested interests and that the Government must involve themselves more and more in their commitment to the people by providing homes for them.

With regard to this housing scandal, the Minister for Local Government and his Parliamentary Secretary should realise that they are sitting on top of a grumbling volcano. He is a very deaf man indeed who does not hear the groaning and he is a very blind man indeed who does not see the signs of indignation and anger represented in so many forms throughout our country, anger in the press and anger in the mass media of communication about this social evil. There is evidence, too, in the formation of tenants' associations and action committees, in order to pressurise the Government into action and bring home to them their responsibility in this matter.

It is obvious that the present policy of depending on private enterprise in the main to solve our housing problem has failed. If it is to be tackled successfully, we must have a radical extension of Government involvement in home building. The key to the solution of this social problem, as indeed to every other social problem, is money, and the Government must decide that the necessary capital is made available for investment in the housing industry. As it is at the moment, capital is invested in large quantities in Britain through the banking system. Capital is obviously available for the building of luxury flats and office blocks, and for Jumbo Jets. It is time this Government laid down their priorities for the use of the capital available.

We say in this respect that housing should have an exceptionally high place and we therefore call on the Government to embark on a crash programme to end the misery of the homeless. We in the Labour Party realise that Ireland's most cherished assets are its people, not the people of vested interests involved in housing. The welfare of our people comes before anything else. Deputy Corish, the Leader of the Labour Party, went on record once again during our annual conference in declaring, in case there might be any ambiguity about it, that it had always been the policy of this Party, still is and always will remain, in respect of housing especially, to bring the banks, the insurance companies, the building societies and other financial institutions under Government control so that the essential capital will be available to eradicate this great social evil.

Until this has been done, we will continue to witness this social inequality, this privation in the midst of plenty. No nation, in the history of human endeavour, was ever inspired to great or greater things by the venal and selfish philosophy of "I'm all right, Jack" or the get-rich-quick mentality of the boys in Taca groups who have positive vested interests in housing, land and other property throughout the country.

We in the Labour Party say that we must reassert in the House and throughout the country the value of service above private gain, the welfare of our people before profit, that nepotism and vested interests have no place in the just society, in the Ireland of happy homes to which we in the Labour Party aspire.

I wish once again to make a plea on behalf of two categories of people who are the last to be considered in respect of housing—the newly-weds and the aged. We must give special attention to the problem of the newly-married couples. There is no good reason why young couples should be condemned to a long purgatory of waiting until they are rehoused, why young lives should be blighted by rotten housing conditions and, mark you, open to every kind of unscrupulous exploitation by landlords. We have in this country a number of Rachmans.

I recall that a man very high in the social standing of this country, a man with particular responsibility for housing in a wide area, said that newly-weds would have to wait on in this purgatory before they could be rehoused, that they would have to have a number of children which, in the normal course, meant years of waiting. With this kind of disregard for our young people, is it any wonder that so many of them go abroad as soon as they are married? Is it any wonder that our marriage rate is the lowest in western Europe—five per cent of our population, a third lower than most European countries? We have not been giving our young people a chance in respect of housing and my plea now is that in every sizeable scheme embarked on there should be provision for housing for newly-weds so that they can have some hope of not being condemned to interminable years of waiting, subject to the grossest exploitation by landlords which makes life so miserable for them that in desperation they go abroad, turning their backs on all this country stands for.

Likewise, the rehousing of the aged is a grave problem here because we have an exceptionally high percentage of old people. The 1961 census reveals that we had then 315,061 persons of 65 years or more. We are rapidly becoming a nation of too few working adults and too many aged and we must pay special attention to this problem. I should like to see our old people properly housed in community centres among friends and relatives.

Neither do we show any worthwhile regard for the welfare of our young people, the children of the nation. This is evidenced by the marked absence of playgrounds in most of our housing schemes, apart perhaps from some of the major schemes in this city and other large towns. There is also an absence of playgrounds for adults. There is no provision made in the planning of our housing schemes for adult pursuits, recreation or athletic activities of any kind. We surely ought to have regard to healthy recreational pursuits when building our housing schemes. It is no wonder that we have so many thousands of young boys and girls and adults wandering around aimlessly in those housing estates, unable to kick a ball, unable to run a race or engage in the normal pursuits of youth without being involved with the police. It is a great wonder that more do not gravitate towards crime and that the incidence of juvenile delinquency is not higher in this country.

I would like to say also in respect of our housing schemes generally that they all appear to be of the stock type, drab, monotonous with little redeeming feature. It is high time the Department laid down some restrictions so that we could have originality. Some worthwhile planning in architecture should go into the building of our houses rather than having the stock type houses, the sticking together of three or four boxes, which are intended to be rooms, and slapping them up haphazardly here, there and everywhere.

There are a number of measures to which the Minister adverted in his speech. None of them is, in my opinion, of any real consequence for our people, especially those in need of new homes. This is why I have dwelt perhaps a bit long on this matter of housing alone. There are other aspects, such as the provision of piped water and sanitary facilities. Doubtless all of us will agree that the provision of piped water and sanitary facilities is a very essential service which should be provided for every householder, every farmer and every cottier. I believe this has been an aim of all Governments. It is very disconcerting to realise, having regard to the hardship imposed on thousands of our people as a result of the lack of piped water and sanitary facilities, that instead of accelerating the provision of piped water and sanitary facilities, this Government and this Minister have brought water schemes and sewerage schemes to a grinding halt during recent years.

I submit, without fear of contradiction, in respect of sanitary services, piped water and the like, no progress whatsoever has been made in the past few years. The situation with most local authorities has been absolutely static. All our hopes for the extension of piped water and the provision of sanitary facilities have been completely disillusioned and come to a grinding halt because of the inability of the Minister's Department to provide the necessary money.

One would not mind if some semblance of progress were being made in respect of the extension of those essential services but what this House and this country have got to realise is the fact that our record in this regard is gloomy indeed. I said we had the worst record in Europe for house building. I assert now that our record in the provision of water, sewerage and the like is equally bad.

The Statistical Abstract of Ireland for 1966 reveals that less than half our households have piped water laid on, 44 per cent have taps outside the house and 43 per cent use a fountain, a well, a stream or some other dubious source of supply for water. I want to place on the records of this House that only 53 per cent of the households, a little more than half, have proper sanitary facilities, that is to say, a flush toilet. A little more than half of households have a flush toilet. The rest of us, almost half of our people, are obliged to use the primitive methods of dry closets and, in the rural areas, the wide open spaces, with no sanitary facilities whatsoever.

It is difficult in the light of those startling facts, and it is disconcerting in the extreme to understand how the Minister could issue this circular to all local authorities, which indicated clearly that the money required for piped water was proving too costly and admonishing all county councils to forget about their plans and their programmes for piped water and submitting that we should all do a complete somersault and go back to the idea of group water schemes instead.

I am very sorry to think that the Government are so utterly bankrupt of financial resources that the Minister for Local Government, Caoimhin Uasal Ó Beoláin, should have to do this dastardly thing to stop the wonderful progress being made in this country in the provision of piped water. What chances now are there of having hygiene in the home or on the farm? What chances are there for increasing production, attracting new industries and providing better amenities all round for our people unless we have piped water as a first essential? Apart from the statistics I have already mentioned as to the numbers who are without water, without flush toilets, one must not forget that quite large towns and villages, certainly in my constituency, have no sanitary facilities at all. Here we have public houses, hotels, shopping centres and the like, all with dry closets. There are towns with a population of 1,000 or 2,000, and even more, with no sewerage scheme of any kind. Sewerage and water are twins; you cannot have the one without the other. If the Minister is going to obstruct local authorities in the provision of water, we can forget about sewerage for a long time to come.

I deplore the ineptitude of the Minister and his failure to deal effectively with the problem of piped water. He is doing the nation a grievous disservice when he admonishes county councils that the cost is too great, that they must revise their programmes and have resort to the group water scheme instead. It is only a short time since his predecessor was inviting us to avail of grants for the extension of piped water. It is only a short time since our county managers were exhorting us to entice groups of people to embark on piped water schemes and telling us that the erection of pumps would be a monument to our stupidity and ignorance. Having made no progress for the past few years in respect of the extension of piped water, we are obliged to fall back on these doubtful things, group schemes and pumps and the like, as temporary measures.

The Minister will agree with me that the provision of piped water is by far superior than to be depending on group schemes, on wells, and springs and the like. There is no real substitute for piped water. I earnestly appeal to him to reconsider his attitude in this regard. In my own constituency of South Tipperary, we had a great record in the provision of piped water. We had won for ourselves the name of being one of the most progressive counties in all Ireland in respect of the extension of piped water. We had spent over £4 million on it and had plans made to ensure that, where it was possible from an engineering point of view, every home would be provided with piped water. But all our plans for the extension of this much needed amenity have been completely frustrated by the Minister's ineptitude and his clear inability to provide us with the necessary capital to proceed with this valuable work.

I will give an instance of the bankruptcy of the Government in this regard. The county council of South Tipperary, of which I have the honour of being present chairman, submitted to the Minister's Department final plans for the implementation of three major regional piped water schemes away back in the autumn of 1965. From that day to this, over two years ago, we have been unable to get a brass farthing from the Minister's Department, unable to get sufficient money to get these important regional schemes off the ground. The schemes to which I refer are: the Ardfinnan regional water scheme, for which a loan of £203,500 was applied for to the Minister's Department on 11th August, 1965; the Emly regional water scheme, for which a loan of £232,000 was applied for on 15th June 1965; the Dundrum regional water scheme, for which a loan of £407,000 was applied on 15th June 1965; and the Clonmel regional water scheme, for which a loan of £178,000 was applied for to the Minister's Department on 11th August, 1965. There were other incidental schemes as well. Despite raising this matter in the House on many occasions by way of question and argument and adverting to it in speeches on the Local Government Estimate, despite motions passed by my county council calling on the Minister to give us a reasonable allocation to proceed with these important matters, we have abjectly failed to get any response. Not only is the Minister refusing to give us the necessary money, but he has done my county council the discourtesy of refusing to meet a deputation to discuss these matters.

Is it not time we ended this hypocrisy about being concerned about the welfare of our people? I feel that we shall have to wait for better times, better men and better Governments to solve these social problems of our people, particularly in this matter of water and sewerage. The instances I have outlined in South Tipperary, one of the most progressive counties so far as the provision of sanitary facilities and piped water is concerned, are the pattern throughout the country. The dead hand of the Department of Local Government has fallen flat on all local authorities in respect of water. Surely this is a sign of bankruptcy? No rational Government, having regard to the intrinsic worth of piped water for the home, the farm and industry, would consciously hold up or withdraw moneys or frustrate the efforts of local authorities to proceed with these essential services. If there is an answer to it, let us have it when the Minister is replying.

I am asking the Minister to end this codology, to put an end to this insult he is offering to the county councils, and to tell us precisely where we stand. Can we at least have an allocation of money to get these schemes off the ground? My council have been compelled to seek a loan from a foreign source for the purpose of implementing a piped water scheme. We are awaiting sanction for that loan from the Minister at interest rates comparable with the interest charges in this country. We want the money urgently. If the Minister cannot give it to us, I sincerely hope he will not adopt a dog in the manger attitude and prevent us from getting this loan which we are now forced to seek abroad in Britain.

I want to protest in the strongest possible terms about the slashing of the Road Fund grants this year. When the Government, in the throes of the recent credit squeeze, felt compelled to rifle the Road Fund, it was self-evident that a reduction in the road grants to all our local authorities would follow. This has happened. It happened this year to the tune of approximately £1 million. Every county council has sustained a serious reduction in the amount of grants for main and county roads. I want to dissuade the Minister of the foolish notion that this reduction had no effect on employment. We all know it had. We all know that a reduction in the road grants in many instances by an average of £40,000 or £50,000 for a county comparable with the one I represent—and £40,000 is a lot of money to a small county council —is bound, of necessity, to have adverse effects on employment. We know that many workers have been let off already, and that it is only by scrimping and scraping that the county councils will be able to keep on their minimum labour force until the end of the financial year.

We see the evidence all around us as we travel up and down to Dublin. Work schemes are abandoned, and abandoned they will remain until next March when the estimates are considered again. Machinery is standing idle, and we note the absence of men on the job. That is a sign that the money has run out. As a result of the rifling of the Road Fund and the slashing of the road grants, the money is running out fast, and the county engineers are obliged to cut their cloth according to their measure. They are discarding all temporary workers, and they are down to a skeleton permanent force whom they hope by the Grace of God to keep in employment until the end of the financial year.

This has had a very bad effect, particularly on those who hire machinery to the various county councils. The machines are idle and the men who operate them are idle too. The temporary workers who look for employment with the county councils, particularly around Christmas time, failed to secure any this year, and the permanent staffs, as I as chairman of a county council know only too well, will be maintained in employment as a small permanent force until the end of this financial year next March by scrimping and scraping and scrounging. The reduction in the road grants was a severe blow to all our county councils and to the road workers who depend upon these grants for a livelihood. The Minister should not add insult to injury by pretending that the slashing of these grants had no adverse effect whatever. The contrary is true.

I wish to echo the appeal by Deputy Fitzpatrick in regard to the need for increased grants for new houses, and grants for repair and reconstruction. It is a long number of years since these grants were first introduced. These new house grants have stood at £275 for a long number of years. This is the type of grant which the ordinary home builder avails of in the urban areas. I appreciate that some increases were conceded to the agricultural community in respect of new house grants in recent years, and that it is now possible for a farmer, depending on his valuation, to get up to £900 by way of grant for new house purposes.

The urban dweller has had to contend with £275 for far too long. This bears no relationship whatsoever to the very high cost of house building at this time. The same applies to house repairs. For a long number of years these grants have been standing at £100, £120 or £140, depending on the number of rooms to be repaired in the household. It is high time the Minister appreciated the vast number of increases in the cost of living, the cost of materials, and the cost of labour, and increased these grants proportionately.

While I am on the subject of grants, I want to bring to the Minister's notice something about which there is a lot of anxiety throughout the country. Grants for repair and reconstruction are widely availed of, and have proved to be a great boon in every town and city in the maintenance of property, the elimination of eyesores, and the avoidance of responsibility for re-housing by the local authorities, but anyone who thinks he got one of these grants without an obligation to repay is in for a rude awakening. We now know that after the expiration of seven years from the day, on which one gets a grant for repair or reconstruction, one's property is not only likely to be revalued but is in fact submitted for revaluation, and we know that the revaluation in these instances has been excessive in the extreme. Many local authorities have expressed their outright opposition to this.

In cases where internal repairs only were carried out, not involving reconstruction, and for which very small grants were made, after the expiration of seven years, the houses are revisited by the valuers and the valuation is increased out of all proportion and, correspondingly, the rates are increased out of all proportion. Many of the people concerned have been shocked and dismayed by what has happened to them as a result of their availing of the small grants for repairs. I want to be fair in this matter and to say that in respect of reconstruction, the provision of extra accommodation or some positive improvement of that kind, one would understand property being revalued, but I protest very strongly about revaluing houses to which merely internal repairs were carried out in order to extend the life of the house and to keep it rain and weatherproof. I would ask the Minister to see what he can do to restrain valuation officers from increasing the valuation of property of that kind. Many of the people concerned are workingclass people who simply cannot afford to pay the excessive demand for rates.

I have referred to the lack of money in the Department for various purposes, particularly for the provision of piped water and sewerage facilities. That cannot be denied. The credit squeeze and the shortage of money in the Department of Local Government prompted the Minister's predecessor, in particular, to act in various ways for the primary purpose of replenishing the coffers of the local authorities, he, as Minister for Local Government, being unable to provide for them the necessary funds to maintain essential services, particularly in the sphere of housing.

In order to provide this extra money for local authorities the Minister for Local Government chose to rifle, in particular, the pockets of all corporation, urban council and county council tenants by implementing a graded or differential rent scheme. The rationalisation of rents policy enunciated by Deputy Blaney, the Minister for Local Government, was a clarion call to all county managers to increase rents of all council tenants forthwith and this they set about doing. There are countless houses of tenants whose rents were increased out of all proportion under the guise of rationalisation, on the pretext that this was being done to help the underprivileged, to help to rehouse those who could not pay high rents. It was done on the pretext that those who needed to be rehoused would be rehoused irrespective of ability to pay rent. We all now know that this was a positive revenueraising gimmick devised by the then Minister for Local Government to rob these corporation and council tenants and to fill the empty coffers of the local authorities. Quite a lot of these rents were increased out of all proportion. Admittedly, some of them may have been small rents but they were increased by 300, 400 and 500 per cent in many instances.

Even in the past year, under the present Minister's jurisdiction, more serious inroads have been made into the rights of corporation and council tenants. Tenants who believed that they had entered an agreement with the housing authority to pay a fixed rent for their houses plus, of course, rates, were shocked and appalled when county managers and housing authorities simply discarded these agreements, tore them up as of no consequence and arbitrarily applied graded or differential rents.

The right of tenants to purchase their homes on the basis of the original cost has also been taken from them by recent legislation and those people who had not purchased by 30th September last will now be obliged to purchase at present day values which will mean that the price will be very much dearer than the original cost.

As far as county council tenants are concerned, they no longer enjoy the privilege of having adequate repairs carried out. There is a stipulation in the new Act which means that they must be satisfied with the remedying of mere structural defects. This is to be greatly deplored, as we pointed out when the Bill was going through the House, especially having regard to the fact that the Minister has admitted that some 80 per cent of appeals in regard to inadequacy of repairs carried out for the purpose of vesting are upheld in the Minister's Department. Having regard to the bad history of repairs to county council houses for the purposes of vesting, the Minister has done these unfortunate people a very great disservice. He has said that 80 per cent of appeals coming to him were justified and that he was obliged to recommend to the county councils concerned that additional repairs be carried out. These cottiers, if they feel like transferring their interest in these homes, will be in for a rude awakening because the new legislation provides that the county manager will be entitled to take from them upwards of one-third of the selling price. That does not seem right, or fair, or proper. I wonder on what criterion the Minister based that provision. I know of no good reason why this should be done. When the Minister was searching for suckers from whom he could raise extra money, he picked on the corporation, urban council and county council tenants. This was done presumably on the principle of helping the under-privileged, moryah!

The differential renting system is a vicious one. We in the Labour Party have always supported the principle of the differential rent. Unfortunately the system has become odious in the eyes of a great many tenants because of the manner in which it is administered. It is in administration that the flagrant defects of the system are revealed. Maximum rents in excess of the economic rent are fixed. There are instances of tenants being stripped of the benefit of the State subsidy under this differential renting system. We know that, when financial circumstances worsen and people seek a reduction in rent, reliefs are sometimes very slow and, if and when they are granted, they are granted grudgingly and only after a horrible means test, something the normal family bitterly resents. We can understand the reaction to the system especially in the light of the evidence of a certain lack of humanity on the part of those who administer the system. It is this inhumanity which engenders the reaction to which I have referred.

I want to appeal to the Minister to have regard now to the problem of emergency repairs to houses. I understand small grants are available under section 5 of the old Act in order to keep houses in safe structural condition and to make them windproof and weatherproof. There are many houses in urgent need of emergency repairs. The county council have approved the grants and the Minister's Department have likewise approved the grants but the repairs do not seem to be carried out. They are seldom if ever carried out unless they are carried out by the housing authority by way of direct labour because the occupiers are very badly off, are usually extremely poor and invariably in receipt of home assistance. It is futile allocating grants to these people because, in my experience, no contractor will go in to carry out repairs since he has no confidence in the tenant being able to meet the difference between the grant and the estimate. These houses are in bad structural condition and contractors are fearful of going into them in case they find more work than they bargained for. I know one case in which the side of the house fell down during repair work. The Minister should have regard to the way in which these grants are administered. He should ensure that the grants are not merely available but that the work is carried out. I know of no way of doing this except by placing the responsibility on the housing authority.

The Minister dealt at great length with planning. Planning is not a controversial subject since we are all agreed on the necessity for planning. Planning is essential to ensure that we shall preserve much that is beautiful and eliminate that which is ugly. I want to refer to one aspect of planning which is, I believe, a source of anxiety to many people in public life. I understand that the Minister has superimposed upon the country outside planning authorities with vast powers and it is they who will determine the future of our social and economic environment for many years to come. I understand that some of these gentlemen are foreigners. Some of them are Englishmen. Despite that fact, some of them are very eminent men but they are looking at this country through the eyes of an English economist. They are simply not au fait with the problems of our rural people.

I myself, and Deputy Kyne who sits beside me, remember vividly attending a seminar or a lecture by a representative of one of these outside planners who was charged with drawing up a plan for the whole south-eastern region of Ireland, including the counties of Tipperary, Waterford, Wexford, Carlow and Kilkenny. I hope it is not remiss, Sir, to refer to the planning consultant concerned, a man of wide renown, highly respected for his gifts as a planner of society in Britain: I refer to Mr. Colin Buchanan. I understand that this gentleman is charged with the responsibility of drawing up the social and economic plan of various regions, certainly the south-eastern region, containing the counties to which I have referred, and of reporting to the Minister for Local Government. If, in his wisdom, the Minister for Local Government thinks fit to accept this gentleman's recommendation, that is the way our society will be formed for a long number of years to come.

Those of us who attended that lecture at which were representatives from all the counties concerned—the chief engineers and public representatives from all these counties—were not fortunate enough to be lectured to on that occasion by Mr. Colin Buchanan himself but we had a very entertaining and enlightening lecture by one of his partners, I assume, Mrs. MacEwan. What she conveyed to us, as public representatives, of the Colin Buchanan plan for our region of the future was very disconcerting. They were concerned with growth centres. They were concerned with population trends.

I was shocked and dismayed to realise that, in respect of my county of Tipperary, in their plan only one town of that county was designated a growth centre and that is my native town of Clonmel. Of all the other important towns in that county—Tipperary, Cashel, Carrick, Cahir and, in the other part of my constituency, Lismore, Mallow, Cappoquin, outside of Waterford city which, of course, has been designated an industrial estate— there were very few growth centres as far as these economists were concerned. Their whole policy was that the labour in all of our towns and villages should be sufficiently mobile to move to these growth centres. To us, this would mean the denuding, the depopulation, of our small towns and villages and even of our larger towns in this region. We challenge this kind of economic thinking as applied to this country. It might be economically wise to do this in Britain, in that vast industrial nation, but is it economically wise or is it socially prudent, in this agricultural country of ours, to apply these ways and means in respect of economic and social planning of the future?

The most serious aspect of this matter was the plea which we, as public representatives from these counties, made that there should be established a liaison between ourselves and the Colin Buchanan group of planners so that our views could be expressed, so that there would be consultation and so that that we should be aware of what was happening. However, our suggestions of representation were fobbed off as of no consequence. I shall not say they were frowned upon or outrightly rejected but they were just set aside in a very discreet way as certainly unacceptable.

If a regional plan is being drawn up for the counties of Tipperary, Waterford, Wexford, Carlow and Kilkenny by an outside planner such as Mr. Colin Buchanan, great and eminent as he is, I submit that we, the members of the local authorities within these respective counties, are entitled to a say in this plan or is it suggested that we shall not be consulted at all in the matter, that he will report, that it will be accepted or rejected by the Minister and that that will be the end of it? I think that that would be showing flagrant contempt for the rights of the representatives of our various counties.

I ask the Minister, before these plans are brought to fruition or before he considers them in any serious vein, to ensure that the members of the local authorities in each area concerned are fully consulted and their views ascertained before any segment of this plan is implemented. It is particularly audacious that an Irish Government should superimpose on us planning of this kind. It makes a mockery of our whole planning machinery in this country. It places in question the intrinsic worth of the planning measures which we passed in this House. If they were of any value, why did we have to go abroad for further consultants? I am asking that, before any attempt is made to implement any part of these plans, the representatives of the councils concerned be consulted.

I was surprised that the Minister did not advert at greater length to the Tidy Towns efforts in this country. I shall not deal at any length with the matter except to mention one pertinent point. I believe that the appearance of most of our towns could vastly be improved if we could eliminate the many eyesores, especially the derelict sites, that mar our many towns. I regard the grants for this purpose as totally inadequate. If the Minister is serious about improving the appearance of our towns and villages, he will have to be more generous to our local authorities by way of extra grants for the elimination of derelict sites.

I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Local Government to consider embarking upon a crash programme for the elimination of these eyesores and to increase the grants proportionally.

In a very short time I believe we would see the elimination of derelict sites. The Parliamentary Secretary may be assured of the willingness of local authorities to participate in any worthwhile campaign of this kind but the moneys offered by the Department so far have been less than would tempt them to embark on this work. Clearly the work is of such a costly nature that it cannot be undertaken by means of money from the rates.

The Minister mentioned traffic problems generally and I want to avail of this opportunity to ask the Minister to make a pretty speedy determination in regard to requests from local authorities for the application of additional speed limits in our towns and villages. We have had many requests for such speed limits and we find that county councils have very little say in the matter which rests primarily with the Minister's Department. I ask him to facilitate those local authorities that have requested him to apply speed limits in their areas.

How well it would be received if the Government were to make available once again money for the implementation of the Local Authorities (Works) Act. This Act is still on the Statute Book but it is sterile because of lack of money to back it up. Pending implementation of our arterial drainage schemes on the main rivers hardship is experienced by large numbers of people as a result of periodic flooding. In my own constituency arable land is inundated for many months of the year; roads are flooded and much damage and inconvenience caused. Local authorities are unable to find money to deal with these problems or to bring about even temporary relief of flooding of this kind. Draining of tributaries or certain portions of the main rivers is something we cannot tackle because of lack of money. We are told to wait interminably for the implementation of the drainage scheme proper. The arterial drainage of the river Suir, we are told, will begin some time in 1970. Meantime we must contend with serious flooding of the Suir and its tributaries and we have no funds to deal with the problem. Apart from that, there is so much other good work crying out to be done which the Local Authorities (Works) Act provided for that some such scheme should be introduced to assist us in dealing with these local problems. I have never accepted the viewpoint, expressed by Government spokesmen in particular, that the Local Authorities (Works) Act was money wasted. Perhaps money was wasted because there was no follow up and no obligation placed on county councils to follow up, but those who witnessed expenditure of large amounts of money under the scheme saw valuable work done in return and worthwhile amenities provided. It is only a subterfuge to say that money was squandered. Indeed, the Minister at the time if he allowed capital expenditure of that kind to be wasted, was himself guilty of dereliction of duty if that was the case.

It is appreciated that county managers have wide powers. Some managers use these powers wisely and well; others do not. I do not wish now to castigate anyone; I shall reserve such comments for the appropriate local authority where I prefer to meet my adversary man to man, but it is high time county managers realised that while they possess executive powers in respect of staff matters and dealings with people they no longer have the right to hire and fire indiscriminately. I assert that before there is any large lay-off of men employed in local authorities there is an obligation on county managers as a matter of courtesy to consult the local councils and inform them of impending action as a result of redundancy. It is an affront to a local authority and a grave disservice to the employees concerned that workers should be discarded indiscriminately without prior consultation with the local authority and an endeavour to find alternative employment.

I speak of this because of the known views expressed by a particular local authority that between now and the end of the financial year next March every endeavour should be made to carry our work force over this period without laying off any man especially having regard to the volume of work requiring to be done particularly in respect of house maintenance and other essential schemes in the area. It was also clearly conveyed that if the worst came to the worst the local authority would be prepared to make the necessary money available by way of a supplementary estimate so as to provide the wages of the men concerned and keep them on the job.

These known views of the members of the Clonmel Corporation were conveyed to the manager and the town clerk, that there should be no lay-off. There was a superabundance of work, and if money was running out we as the corporation were prepared to bring in a supplementary estimate to provide money to put these people to work. It was a shameful and disgraceful thing that these men were given notice without the corporation being consulted, and when a motion was put down and agreed to unanimously that the men be reinstated. That motion has not as yet been acted upon.

As I say, these gentlemen have wide powers, even dictatorial powers, but they have got to recognise that the day has come when they must treat labour with dignity and respect and that the day of hiring and firing indiscriminately has gone, and gone forever. It was an example of the worst kind of relations which could exist between master and man, between employer and employee, something which I personally deplore, and something which I shall not allow to rest until it is remedied.

With these sentiments, I shall conclude my views on this Estimate on this occasion. I have dealt in the main with the greatest social evil in this country at the present time, the scandal of housing, a scandal which cries to high heaven for justice, and if there is any justice in this Government, it behoves them now to see that it is done and done quickly.

If emotional speeches could solve the housing problem, Deputy Treacy would have solved our national problem in the past two hours. Unfortunately, we want something more than that. Deputy Treacy has spoken about changing the system, taking over the banks and all this kind of thing, but I do not intend to go into a political speech.

What is the Deputy going into?

Fifty years ago in Russia they nationalised the banks, confiscated land, liquidated trade unionists, and Moscow today has, proportionately, a much bigger problem than Dublin has.

Ours is the worst in Europe.

The Deputy should not talk about changing the system.

The Deputy should be thoroughly ashamed of himself to be a member of that corporation.

I am proud to be a member of Dublin Corporation, and it was appalling to have to listen to Deputy Treacy's abysmal ignorance in this regard. There are various housing difficulties which affect any city whether it is Dublin Moscow, Rome or Stockholm. The basic problem is the increase in population in these cities. Any living city will always have a housing problem. The fact that the population of Dublin today is increasing both by reason of immigration and a natural increase, is something which we do not deplore but try to cope with. There are few cities in the world, in proportion to their means and resources, which have done as much for housing as this city, and while I deplore the fact that there are many families who cannot get proper housing, it is no good making emotional speeches about it.

No—smother it up.

There is no question of smothering it up. We have to take the measures necessary to solve the problem. I believe it will never be solved. We may control it, but we shall never solve it. That is the case in any living city, whether it is Moscow or Dublin. The only difference between the two cities is that Dublin people are allowed to demonstrate against the housing shortage.

A second part of the problem to which I want to refer is the shortage of building land. I believe that any man who owns land and wishes to sell to a local authority should be given a fair return. I do not believe speculators should be allowed to hold some of our people to ransom. It could be dealt with in a very simple way. If, when a local authority purchases land for housing, the Minister, by bringing in new legislation, would refuse to recognise the added value of an extension of water and sewerage services, this would bring down the price of land.

In the city and county of Dublin, we do know that there are people who, once they know the corporation or the county council have acquired land, will buy land close to that, realising that the local authority will provide drainage for the land, and they will cash in on it at a very small cost. It is my belief that these people should be made pay the full cost of the drainage of their own land. If the Minister would act as I request here, it would have the effect of bringing down land values, but, at the same time, it would give a fair return to the owner of the land.

We hear clichés about crash programmes and so on when people talk about housing. If we had all the money in the Bank of Ireland tomorrow and all the housing land we needed, there would still be a problem. It is reckoned in the Dublin Corporation that from the time the corporation decides to develop an area it takes at least three years before a flat or a house is built. This is despite the fact that the corporation, like other authorities, have powers of acquisition and have, at the present time anyway, sufficient money to carry out these schemes. It is impossible under our present system—and I do not condemn the system which gives any property owner a just profit for his land—to build houses any faster; even working as hard as they can the officials, and eventually the building workers, must take a considerable time to erect the houses or flats. In the meantime the population is growing, and this is why we have housing problems.

In the past 30 years or so Dublin Corporation have provided over 50,000 dwellings, and also, we must remember, they have provided money to help people with land to build their own houses. Yet Deputies here tonight have been attacking the Dublin Corporation as if they had done nothing. It is estimated that by 1971 Dublin city will need 17,000 dwellings, and the present plans of the corporation will give us 18,000 in that period. The Minister has simplified many of the methods by which a local authority initiates a housing scheme. Many years ago two or three submissions had to be made to the Department before permission was given to go ahead with a scheme. Now one submission is sufficient, and the Minister in his brief here has said that no scheme is held up because of lack of money.

This problem is a challenge to each one of us, to those interested in the city, whether it is the Government, the corporation or just the people themselves. I am convinced we can bring this under control in the next few years.

There has been criticism, justified in some cases, of subsidisation of local authority housing. Admittedly the subsidies have been generous in the past and by some standards could still be called generous but we feel that with the problems we have here in Dublin City that we have a case for special subsidisation. After all, we are housing many people from the provinces and we feel that we should be given this special consideration so that we can let the houses at rents which people can afford.

The Minister also referred to the problem of itinerants. It is a sad reflection on us that in the whole country we have only three settlements of itinerants. The biggest one is in the city of Dublin where 39 families are or will be housed and that is only a start. I feel it is a problem for our consciences. The itinerants may annoy us when they knock on our doors or even beg on the streets, but I feel we should not be happy or content until we have solved this problem either by integrating them into society or giving them special settlements for themselves. A good start has been made and please God we will solve the problem fairly.

A great talking point in Dublin city is the lack of swimming pools. No one will deny there is a serious lack of them. The last time the corporation built or bought a pool directly was about 50 years ago. In the meantime, they have helped with the building of semi-public pools in colleges and institutions. At the moment we have, I think, 14 applications from schools and colleges for grants but we must be quite honest and admit that just at the moment we have not got the money for it. We are hoping that in the new financial year money will be made available for at least some of these. In the meantime the corporation are waiting to build two new pools; one at Townsend Street near the present one and one at Crumlin to serve that very densely populated area. We had plans for many years for very big pools but things seem to have changed now and even the swimming interests would seemingly rather have a small local pool than the Olympic standard central pool. I think the swimmers themselves would settle for anything once they had a swim during the winter months.

Talk of road safety is something which one does not undertake with great enthusiasm because it seems that no matter what steps we take for road safety we are not arresting the annual slaughter. All one can say is, as the Minister said, that without what we have done it could be worse. I do not know where the solution to all this lies because if one looks at Continental countries like Germany where they have the most marvellous road systems they have still got a frightful slaughter every year. I suppose it is oversimplifying the case to say that if every one took more care we would have fewer accidents but that is the only suggestion I can offer. Whether one is a pedestrian, a motorist, a cyclist or anything else, unless more care is taken by each one of us we will not arrest the slaughter on the roads.

I do not know if the Minister referred to the rates position in his brief or even if it is appropriate to his Department but a committee is sitting at the moment, an inter-Departmental committee of civil servants, examining the whole rating system. So far they have issued two reports and the second one starts off by saying that the present rating system is inequitable and should be replaced. I do not think there is anybody in the city or country that would not re-echo this sentiment. I feel that our present system is very heavy on people who just cannot pay. If it were like income tax where one pays on one's earnings there would be some justice in it but there are many people living in the area which I represent who are elderly, who have kept on the family house when the family married and went away, and they are finding this crushing burden of rates just unbearable. I would ask the Minister to ask this committee to hurry up their findings so that the Government can introduce legislation which has been promised for some time in order to change the rating system and bring in a more equitable system for the benefit of those who can ill-afford to pay rates at the present time.

Another thing mentioned by the Minister was fire protection. I am a member of the Fire Protection Association, a voluntary body which tries to educate all the people into the need to take adequate fire precautions especially at this time of the year, coming up to Christmas, when we have the usual increase in accidents and deaths. We had one in the city today where a child was burned. I do not think we can drive home too much the terrible need for fire protection in the home especially. While I hesitate to suggest any further imposition on schoolteachers, I feel that in the school and in the home the greatest effort could be made to inculcate in the children the need to be careful with fire because while we may deplore the annual slaughter on the roads and deplore the fact that we have not got houses, fire can bring much-tragedy and actual loss in the present housing stock. Every year a number of houses are burned out which must be replaced at great cost. Apart from that, it is depriving some family on the waiting list of a home.

There has been criticism here of the corporation in its treatment of newly-weds and old people. This, of course, is unwarranted because for the last 17 years the Dublin Corporation have been operating a scheme whereby newly-weds are housed in the first year of their marriage. A speaker here said that they had to have children to be housed under this scheme. This, of course, is totally untrue. Every year we house 200 newly-weds.

(Cavan): That is a draw, a lottery.

Well it is fair anyway. It is rough justice if you like but it is fair.

(Cavan): It is rough enough.

It has been in existence for quite a long time?

Seventeen years. However it is a start. About 200 couples every year are housed which means they do not have to live in a tenement room or with their in-laws.

With regard to the housing of the old people, in each scheme the corporation includes a number of one-room flats for old people. In addition, we have provided special schemes and chalet type dwellings where they are adequately housed. I would like to pay tribute to the religious bodies in this regard. The first one I think was the Methodist Church in Sandymount which built a wonderful place there for old people and this week the Corporation passed the plans of the Catholic Housing Aid Society who are going to build flats for aged people and young people also. We are making a start in looking after the aged but it would give the corporation greater heart if more bodies would follow the example of the two I have mentioned. I look forward to the day when all the housing will not be left to the corporation but citizens by their efforts will help out, apart, of course, from paying taxation for housing, to at least get the problems of this city under control.

I shall not detain the House very long but there are a few points I should like to make. I expected something better in the Minister's statement. Indeed, his statement was a big disappointment to me. In the first place, I do not think there is adequate provision made for housing needs at present, especially in my constituency. Very little encouragement is given to people to build their own houses or even to reconstruct them. I had expected that because of the increased cost of materials and labour there would be a substantial increase in grants for new houses, but especially for reconstruction.

The increased grants for small farmers of under £25 valuation was very welcome, indeed, but there are two things of particular interest in that connection. The small farmer of under £25 valuation can get a grant of up to £900 from the Department of Local Government and the local authority and he can get £500 loan from the Irish Land Commission, to be put on to his receivable order. That is £1,400. That looks fair to me and to everybody until you understand the position of the farmer of under £25 valuation as it is today. The cheapest price at which you can erect a house is £2,000 and you are lucky if you can get one erected at that. The question is where is the small farmer of under £25 valuation, who makes his living from the land alone, to get the extra £600 required. It is becoming increasingly difficult and it is likewise with regard to reconstruction. The grant for a fiveroomed house is £140 and the local authority in Sligo pays an equal amount if the estimate is £420. I have come across cases where the estimates for reconstruction were £700, £800 and £900. Now, a man gets £420 by way of grant and he had to find £300 to £400 more. Nowadays in the west of Ireland sizeable amounts of money like that are not to be found. I had expected that the reconstruction grant would be increased and it is disappointing to find that it has not.

In my constituency there are people living in desperate housing circumstances. I was in a house the other night in Sligo. The woman of the house wrote and asked me to call. Those people are married about a year or a year and a half and they have been living in a one-roomed house with a curtain drawn across dividing the room, where they slept, cooked and lived. That poor young woman lost her health and her child due to the bad housing conditions. Her doctor told her so and told her to get out as quickly as she could. The walls were damp from the foundation up and they were covered with blue mould, even if wiped twice a day. The walls were papered twice a month. I also know of a case where a man, his wife and seven children are living in one room. I give those two instances and I shall not quote any more.

In those two instances there is a solution. I should like the Minister to listen carefully to this. There are two local authority vested cottages in the area. These cottages have been vacant for some time. The owners gave them to auctioneers and the auctioneers advertised them for sale. The county council would not allow the sale to go through because they said they wanted the houses and, as you know, people cannot sell vested cottages without permission. It transpired that they were offered ridiculously low prices that nobody would accept—over £400 for houses in good condition and that was allowing for the redemption money. It would cost £2,000 to erect a house for either of those two families and here you have two houses which up to now have not been purchased. The answer I got was that the Minister would not sanction anything higher. I should like the Minister to take that matter up with the Sligo County Council. These two houses are depreciating in value. The windows have been broken. If the Minister wishes I shall give him the names of the people concerned afterwards. Those two families are languishing in unsanitary conditions and there are two houses available with nobody living in them.

There is another matter to which I should like to draw the Minister's attention. It relates to the payment of grants. These payments could be speeded up a lot. There may be a lack of sufficient inspectors but I think the time between the finishing of a job, reconstruction or erection, and payment should not be more than three weeks. In my constituency it runs into two to three months. That is too long. The people concerned have to clear the builders' providers and the contractors and they are pressing for the money. I would ask that inspection and payment of grants be hastened.

I have also a case in point in connection with doubtful cases. Where doubtful cases arise, I think the Minister's Department should give the applicant the benefit of the doubt. I have a specific case in mind where a man applied for a reconstruction grant. He bought the house 13 years ago or thereabouts and he got a certificate of approval. He did not know the regulations well and proceeded to start work before the statutory 15 years' limit. When it came to the inspection of the house it was discovered that the grant was drawn for that house 14½ years before that. The regulation was there and I do not think it could be got through.

He then applied for a special second grant because of overcrowding and I think this is where he could have been met. He has only two bedrooms in the house. This man and his wife lived in the house with their son and daughter —two males and two females. It was reasonable to let that case through and pay the man a grant. However, it was rejected with the reply that the two males could sleep in one room and the two females in the other. I suggest such a reply should not come from any official in any Department.

I should like to refer to the provisions of old section 5 applicants. They come under section 23 nowadays. It was a fine section through which much valuable desirable work was done in my constituency. If the Minister sees through the implication of the number of applicants from Sligo, it will show the state Sligo is in. Section 5 was introduced to prolong the lifetime of a house, usually occupied by elderly people, so that it would last the occupiers during their lifetime. It was generally assumed that when the old people died the house would not be inhabited again by human beings, that it would be converted to a cowhouse or an outhouse for cattle. Now, there have been more than 1,000 applicants from Sligo alone and, reckoning that 75 per cent of them are genuine, it means we have between 700 and 800 houses which we expect to be closed down in the county during the next 10, 15 or 20 years. That gives us an indication of what is happening in the West.

Recently I asked the Minister a question about two houses that had collapsed in Sligo. The occupants were lucky to get out of them with their lives. An incorrect answer was given— not, let me say, the fault of the Minister. The Minister said the two people in one house, a brother and sister, had been housed by the local authority. They had not. They are living in a boiler house belonging to a neighbour. They are sleeping and cooking in it. The Minister should direct those responsible not to supply him with incorrect information.

I wish to refer briefly to the rural improvement scheme. This is a great scheme under which some fine beneficial work has been carried out. In my county, a congested area, we had operating rural improvement schemes, minor employment schemes and bog development schemes. There were no local contributions towards the minor employment and bog development schemes but there were towards rural improvement schemes. From 1st April next, I understand, the three will be operated as rural improvement schemes with a local contribution payable. It should work out all right and the only thing I have to say against it—and it is only fair to let the Minister know—is that in my county in the old days those schemes were operated by the Office of Public Works. In Sligo, the Office of Public Works had not any staff, offices or engineers.

Now that the schemes have been transferred to the Department of Local Government, local authorities have been asked to operate them. They are to be allowed 10 per cent of the money allocated to operate the schemes. I do not think Sligo County Council will agree to operate them on this basis. At a meeting yesterday we discussed it and it was decided to send a deputation to the Minister. Our engineers are too busy with their own work. They have been overloaded with extra work such as activities under section 5, repairs, derelict sites and other things. Therefore, they cannot be allowed to operate the rural improvement schemes.

Under the old system, the engineers were allowed 5 per cent costs. Now, two things will happen: the engineers will lose a small bit of remuneration and at the same time have far and away more work to do. There were about eight engineers—I am not sure of the number—operating there for the Board of Works. If the Department of Finance seconded these engineers to the Department of Local Government to carry out the new work, and, of course, pay them, it would be a good system, much better than transferring the work to the local authority who have neither the time nor the inclination to do the job.

As I have said, the rural improvement schemes are excellent and it would, therefore, be a pity to let them drop. They can be used not alone for drainage purposes but for making boreens, making life more pleasant for the people living at the end of the boreens. As somebody said earlier, those boreens are a contributory cause of emigration from rural Ireland, particularly from the West. It is very difficult nowadays to get a girl to marry a farmer who lives at the end of one of those laneways. These schemes are excellent because they provide suitable passages to every house.

I shall say a few words on regional water supply schemes. When they were introduced by the Minister's predecessor in the Department, they were heralded with a fanfare of trumpets. Every woman in the country could see herself having piped water in a year or two. It would take the drudgery out of housekeeping. In Sligo we had grandiose plans drawn up which would cost £1.2 million. Of course, we shall never live to see them completed. I asked a question, which was not answered, how much had been paid in fees to the consulting engineer to draw up the grandiose schemes. Nobody appears to know. When the schemes are implemented is another matter.

I wish to say a special word about group water schemes. There is frustration and disappointment in Sligo about those schemes. I asked the Minister today how many applications were in and how many had been completed. The reply was that there had been proposals for 25 schemes and that one scheme has been completed. We have been pushing those schemes for all we are worth during the past three or four years. I know a scheme 2½ years old which we have not got off the ground yet.

I have been told by the engineer in Sligo that there is a lack of sufficient information available to them from the Department. When I come to the Department, they blame Sligo County Council and Sligo County Council blame the Department. The position is such that I have asked for a special meeting of Sligo County Council to deal specifically with group water schemes. I have asked that the Department would send on someone to that meeting so that we will be able to find out who was wrong, what was wrong and when we can start. I have letters here from the Department which are muddling and contradictory and I do not propose to go into them. I want to impress on the Minister that this question of getting group water schemes off the ground in County Sligo is in a complete muddle and a complete mess.

I should like to refer to rates. I consider the present system is archaic, outmoded and unsuitable and I think a long time ago some other system of collecting money should have been adopted. I can see nowadays, in the west of Ireland at any rate, in small towns that small shopkeepers and urban dwellers will be absolutely squeezed out of existence. Their overheads are going up year by year with increased rates. The small shopkeepers are being squeezed out between that and the supermarkets. There does not appear to be any hope for them. The urban dweller has the same grievance. There is no abatement and no hope of getting a reduction under the present rates system. I would appeal to the Minister especially on behalf of those urban dwellers and small shopkeepers to have something done immediately before it is too late.

The last point I would like to make is to appeal to the Minister to provide moneys under the Local Authorities (Works) Act. That was one of the finest Acts and beneficial work was done under it. The Act is there but I understand that no money is being provided to implement it. Under that Act drains, roads and those boreens I mentioned could be attended to. I heard a Minister of the present Government once saying that it was a waste of money. It might be wasted money in other counties in Ireland but it certainly is not wasted money for the congested areas. I would ask the Minister to have another look at that and to make provision under that Act for the congested areas.

During the course of this debate, we have heard much talk in relation to the Government's lack of progress but I must say it is clear from the Minister's report that good progress is being made. In 1964 it was stated that it would be the aim to have between 12,000 and 14,000 dwellings built by 1970. It is good to note that 11,000 were completed in 1966-67 and at the present rate of progress during the present year there will be approximately 11,500 or more completed by the end of this financial year.

It is also worth nothing that the amount of capital provided from public sources for the building and reconstruction of houses has risen from £9 million in 1960-61 to an estimated £25 million in the current financial year. This, to my mind, is no mean achievement. It is a good indication of the amount of money being allocated by the Government for houses and the priority which they have fixed in relation to houses.

It is also worth nothing that out of the total capital allocation of £25 million approximately for 1967-68 a sum of £12.5 million was allocated originally for local authority houses and that this provision has since been increased by £.75 million for 1967-68. This in itself shows the manner in which the Government are prepared to get our building programme going and accelerated at a pretty steady pace. I would also like to compliment the Minister on making provision in the Housing Act, 1966, for payment of a subsidy at the rate of £150 per developed building site. This should encourage urban dwellers to acquire and develop housing sites for private building. In many towns, particularly towns with an increasing population, with industries and with a young population, it is estimated that there will be a great demand for private houses within the next few years.

It is only right that the people who are willing and able to build their own houses should have the sites made available to them. I feel the local authorities should be the proper developers of sites for private houses. One of the greatest needs, and the one which should get very urgent attention, is the repair of county council houses. There seems to be some slowing down in the repair of those cottages by county councils over the past few years. It appears to me that the same provision is included in the Estimate of expenses every year without due regard to the fact that many of those cottages are deteriorating and also without due regard to the fact that the cost of repairing and maintaining those cottages is increasing. I feel as well as that that the fact that some of those cottages are falling into disrepair prevents people from purchasing and from availing of the special cottage schemes.

I also think the Minister should take up this matter with the housing authorities, particularly the county councils who do not pay supplementary reconstruction grants. I know, for example, that Kerry County Council is one of the councils who do not pay supplementary reconstruction grants. It is hard to understand the reason why because the repayment and the loan charges on the loan which would be raised for the purchase would have a worthwhile impact on the rates. It is very hard to explain to people who are reconstructing and improving their houses in County Kerry why they are not getting, or why they are not entitled to get a housing reconstruction grant, when their neighbours across the county bounds in Cork are getting the grant.

The same thing applies in the case of new house erection grants. It is very hard to explain to applicants for county council supplementary housing grants why their neighbours in similar circumstances with similar occupations can get more grants in another county just because they are under the control of another housing authority. This is a matter which should be taken up immediately with the housing authorities.

I welcome the scheme for essential repair grants, but I feel it is not being availed of sufficiently by local authorities to make any further impact on the repair and improvement of old houses, particularly houses occupied by elderly people and those not likely to remain too long in the district. In some of our smaller towns, rather than have the local authorities embarking on grandiose housing schemes to rehouse all those in need of rehousing, some little thought should be given to repairing some of the older houses. At the moment, because of leaking roofs and faulty chimney stacks, these may not be fit for habitation, but use could be made of this grant to put them in order. This would relieve old people with small incomes from the necessity afterwards of paying rent to the local authority for a county council house.

There seems to be much controversy regarding the scheme under the Housing Act, 1966, for the sale of vested cottages. No doubt the vendor must pay over to the local authority at least one-third of the purchase price. Normally this is fair enough, but in the case of an old cottage occupied for 40 or 50 years it is not right that the vested owner should have to pay one-third to the local authority. In such cases the cottage is probably 40 or 50 years old and the owner has already paid a good share of money in rent to the council down the years. Special exemption should be made in the case of very old cottages.

The differential rent system is great, provided it is operated fairly by the housing authorities. Deputy Treacy stated that this scheme has fallen down in its administration. It is up to the housing authority to ensure that the scheme is administered properly. It is not the fault of the Government or of the Department. It is only just and right that wealthy people in occupation of local authority houses should be made pay a good rent and so make their contribution towards the cost of subsidising a house for a poorer person. I do not agree with some local authorities who increased the rent on all the cottages and then sent out a questionnaire to the tenants asking for particulars of their incomes. That was wrong and has given rise to much comment and suspicion. It has turned people against the differential rent system.

The policy of the Government not to pursue vigorously the carrying out of regional water schemes has been commented on during this debate. Personally, I believe the group water scheme is a good answer. It is a great thing to see 20 or 30 householders coming together and carrying out a scheme to supply their households and farms with the water they need. It definitely cuts down public expenditure on the provision of piped water. In ensures that the water is provided where required and to people really interested in getting it. In addition, it is a good thing to see community spirit and cooperation by local authority, land-owners and householders.

Deputy Gilhawley said it is pity so much money was spent already on the preparation of the regional water supply schemes. But the money spent on these has come in useful in the development of the group schemes. I found, for example, in cases where people came to me looking for advice and help in relation to group schemes, that when I went to the engineering section of Kerry County Council the people there could tell me from the plans already prepared the estimated cost of the group schemes, whether they could be carried out, whether the source was good and what reservoirs, if any, should be erected. They were able to give good advice to these groups because of what they learned during the preparation of the regional schemes. Therefore, the money already spent on the preliminary preparation of these schemes was money well spent. It will be useful to those wishing to carry out group schemes to have so much information available.

As I am on sanitary services, I believe more thought should be given to the provision of swimming pools in some of the larger towns. I should like to see the State exercising more authority over swimming pools built by way of State grant. I know one town where a swimming pool was constructed by way of State grant and it has now been bulldozed away. More authority should be exercised over the administration and control of these pools after construction.

The Minister should take up with the county councils the question of the maintenance of machinery and plant, and the question of the supervision and control of quarries where materials are produced. It is in the interest of the county council workers that these matters should be looked into. I know a case where a county council are operating a quarry for the production of road materials. The plant in that quarry is obsolete. It is very hard to expect the cost of the chips and the materials to compare with the costs of production by private enterprise. This is no fault of the workers. It is no fault of the planners or supervisors. It is the fault of the county council. They have not modernised these quarries by putting in modern equipment. It is very hard on these workers to see private enterprise developing a quarry within a mile, knowing very well that the day will come when private enterprise will be able to supply chips and materials to the council far cheaper than the county council themselves can supply them. The Minister should direct the attention of the county councils to the necessity for maintaining, improving and modernising the plant and machinery in these quarries.

We heard a lot of talk in relation to high rates, particularly in the urban districts where there is no grant or subsidy towards the payment of rates. It is very hard to say what could be done to relieve that situation. There is no doubt that the services must be paid for and, according as the years go by, as the demand for the services increases, they will cost more and more. The time has come when we must give very serious thought to what can be done to help the workers and the persons in the lower income group in the towns, and particularly in the towns where few houses carry high valuations. I suggest to the Minister that he should take up with the local authorities the question of allowing the ratepayers to pay in instalments. Some system should be devised by every rating authority to provide for the payment of the rates by monthly instalments. This would be of great help particularly to the wage-earners.

Reference was made to the rather high increases in valuations in many cases. Deputy Treacy referred to the high increase in valuations following the payment of reconstruction grants. I should like to point out that the valuation is increased whether or not the grant is paid. The public should be aware of this because many people——

These cases are submitted to the Valuation Office after the expiration of seven years. They are sent up deliberately and of set purpose for revaluation.

The Deputy was not interrupted.

If a person gets a housing reconstruction grant his valuation is not increased for about seven years, but if he gets no grant his valuation goes up almost immediately. This should be pointed out to persons who think they should not apply for a grant. Their valuation will be increased whether or not they get a grant, but they will get some concession if they get a grant. That in itself is worth nothing.

Reference was made to planning and to the carrying out of development plans by local authorities. I think it was Deputy Treacy again who said that planning is not controversial. If he lived in Kerry he would know what controversial planning is—and probably in many of the tourist counties.

I was pretty controversial about it myself actually.

I agree that we must have regional planning. County planning is no good without regional planning. I cannot see any point in preparing a development plan for a certain type of development in County Kerry, let us say, and going off at a tangent and preparing a different plan to provide for a different development for West Cork or West Limerick. The time has come when we must have regard to the region. This country is small and our counties are small indeed by comparision. The time limit given to planning authorities to consider applications—a period of two months —is too long. It is very hard on people who want to carry out development in a hurry to have to wait up to two months before getting permission. It is harder still when there is no time limit on the Minister in considering appeals.

There should be more exemptions from planning permission. It is very difficult to explain to a person who lives a mile off a main road why he must get permission to extend his dwelling or carry out other types of development. It is very hard to explain to him that if you make an exemption for one person you must make it for everyone. Serious thought should be given to the provision of more exemptions in the exempted development regulations.

I will conclude by asking the Minister to give serious consideration to the question of efficiency in the local service. The time has come when more thought should be given to efficiency through work study in that service. The service has been in operation for years and the question of its re-organisation in general should be examined. We should ask ourselves whether there is overlapping of work or whether certain sections and departments should be amalgamated. Personally, I believe that there is great scope in local authorities, particularly county councils, for the employment of work study engineers. Too much work is let out on contract. More house building and other schemes should be carried out directly by the councils under the supervision of a work study engineer. If it pays a contractor to do local authority work, how much more would it pay the ratepayers if the same job could be carried out more efficiently by the council, without profit, under the supervision of a work study engineer? In that way money could be saved. The local authority service could do with some investigation in this direction.

I want to make a few general remarks with regard to this Estimate and to deal also with a few particular matters in connection with the constituency I represent. Perhaps it might be better to deal briefly with the particular constituency matters first and I do so in the confidence that the matters I refer to will be within the knowledge of the Minister's Parliamentary Secretary and I know they will have his goodwill and, I hope, that of the Minister in dealing with them.

One of the first matters I want to refer to—I know that this is not in any way peculiar to the county of Wicklow but is common, I am sure, to many rural constituencies—is the question of the taking over by the local authority of various roads that could more properly be called lanes throughout the county that require repair and attention and then to be kept in a state of repair. I am not saying this in criticism of the local authority. I know that in a number of cases any local authority, including the local authority in Wicklow, finds it cannot take roads or lanes in charge because they are private property. There are cases also where the local authority finds it difficult to make readily available the finance required to carry out the repair work to lanes.

I want to mention in particular four that have been brought to my attention recently and to ask the Minister and his Parliamentary Secretary to use their good offices to have done whatever can be done with regard (a) to the carrying out of necessary repairs and (b) to having them taken in charge by the local authority. One I want to bring to the attention of the Minister is Coolross lane in Clonegal. The position there is that if it has not already been done, not only are the local authority aware of the problem but there is their goodwill towards trying to deal with it. The second— and again I express the hope that this might now be in hands; it probably is —is one that has caused concern to the people in Newtownmountkennedy for some time, that is, a road which serves the schools, the presbytery, the parish hall, the playgrounds in the town and also the local dump. I know that this matter has been brought to the attention of the local authority there and, as I say, I hope that it is now in hands. If it is not, I would strongly urge the Minister to use his good offices with the local authority to have this particular road dealt with. It is one which carries very heavy traffic, as the Minister will appreciate from the fact that the two schools are serviced by it, the parish hall and also the playing fields.

There is another road running beside the Catholic church in Shillelagh which services also some county council cottages, and there is the Glenmalure-Greenane road. All of those are roads that have been brought to my attention and I feel it right to bring them to the attention of the Minister and the Parliamentary Secretary.

On local matters also I should like to inquire generally from the Minister what is the position now with regard to the question of the tenant purchase scheme in Arklow? The Minister will be aware from correspondence which the Arklow Urban Tenants' Association have had with his Department that there has been a great deal of discontent amongst the Arklow urban tenants because of the fact that the 1954 tenant purchase scheme was not operated or approved recently by the Minister. I understand that there were difficulties in the way. The last I heard of it was that there was legal opinion being obtained on each side. I do not want to say anything that will prejudice the position of the association or of the urban council or of the Department but if the Minister is in a position to give information with regard to it I would be glad if he would do so. There are two other matters that I would ask the Minister to look into and deal with if he can. They relate to requests made to have speed limits imposed in Enniskerry and Kilmacanogue. The position so far as Enniskerry village is concerned is that a canvass was carried out there by the Enniskerry guild of the Irish Country Women's Association and about 98 per cent of the adults resident in the district, who would be concerned with or affected by a speed limit, were in favour of a speed limit being imposed. This matter has, I think, being taken up with the Minister. The position, unless I am mistaken, is that the view has been expressed that this would fall to be considered in the general review of speed limits and what I seek to do now is to put on record for the Minister the fact that this canvass was carried out and that 226 adults living in 91 dwellings in or near the village signified their support for the establishment of a speed limit in the village.

Representations have also been made to me—I am sure they have been made independently to the Minister—with regard to the question of a speed limit in Kilmacanogue. I am sure the Minister is familiar with the area. The fact is that there is a very lovely and very fine motorway along that stretch of the Bray-Wicklow road; it is a stretch which certainly would tempt any driver to put his foot down on the accelerator. It would, I think, be for the benefit of the district generally, and for motorists themselves, that a speed limit should be imposed and I would ask the Minister whenever the review is taking place to bear these remarks in mind and also bear in mind the representations which have been made to him on behalf of the local people.

A number of Deputies have spoken about housing. I do not want to take up the time of the House on this topic because I believe it is recognised by Deputies on both sides that very many thousands of people are living in unfit housing. My collegue, Deputy Fitzpatrick, has referred to the speech made by the Taoiseach at the Fianna Fáil Árd-Fheis in which he referred to this matter; I do not think anyone can disagree with the views expressed by the Taoiseach with relation to the dimensions of the housing problem still facing us. I think, however, that many of us when we talk of housing are inclined to think in terms of Dublin city, Cork city and other large city centres. I am sure the Minister appreciates that in many ways the problem is just as acute in rural areas and in the larger urban centres in rural constituencies. I know that in my own constituency of Wicklow there is an acute housing problem in many areas. Representations have been made to me. I know, too, that the local authority are tackling the problem in many of the affected areas and are endeavouring in Bray, for example, to make a dent in the problem there. In other areas housing schemes are in hand and some of them are nearing completion.

I often wonder if those people who are inclined to be cynical about the work of Deputies and the duties of Deputies realise the extent to which Deputies are called upon to assist in problems such as the housing problems of their constituents. I should like to read for the House some letters from constituents, letters which I have received in the past few months, seeking my assistance in getting them proper housing accommodation. To those who think the housing problem is confined to the larger cities some of these letters will certainly be eye-openers. I shall not give the names of the correspondents. Here is a letter from a man in Bray, seeking housing accommodation:

My daughter, who is very frail, needs plenty of fresh air, which she is not getting. My wife is attending the doctor—and the writer names the doctor—with her nerves since she was at school and this place is not making her better. If you could only get me a house my wife and I would be so grateful before I am driven insane.

That is a plea from one constituent. Another writes from Rathnew giving a list of 16 people waiting for houses there. Here is another letter from Grangecon from a person seeking housing. Here is another from Bray again:

I am writing to ask you if you could help to get a house for me. We are on the housing list four years. There are four of us in one small room.

Another writer from Bray says:

I am eleven years on the waiting list for a house.

Yet another letter from Bray says:

I have five children and I am living in a two-roomed flat upstairs. I have no garden back or front. The children play on the main road. The bedroom is very damp. The plaster is coming off the wall and it is very small for seven. I dread the winter coming in as I have just had a baby and this place is so damp, if any of the children get a cold or flu he is bound to get it too as we are all on top of one another.

There are several more letters stressing the very difficult conditions in which many of these people are living. Another writer from Bray says:

For nearly ten years I am on the housing list of the Bray Urban District Council. I have no toilet whatsoever of any kind. My wife and children are losing their health owing to the state of this house.

I do not think it is necessary to read all these out.

The Minister is aware of the type of housing situation that exists in many areas. I have referred to some of these extracts because I want to make the point, which I think has been made by other speakers and which I think is a very valid one, that, in a number of these cases where people need housing accommodation, the unfortunate people are being driven to distraction. Mental stress and strain are created because of the housing conditions. If for no other reason, I think that, as a matter of charity, we should endeavour to expedite the housing drive as best we can and help as best we can in any efforts to provide proper housing and proper housing conditions for our people.

Some Deputies have referred to rates. I gather from what has appeared in the newspapers in the past day or so that there is a bit of a shock in store for Dublin ratepayers. It is a shock that is becoming almost an annual event not alone in Dublin but in most areas. Is the Minister in a position to make any pronouncement on the result of the investigations into the rating system? Certainly, in many ways it is unsatisfactory. A glaring weakness in our rates system, as we know it, is that the demand for rates is in no way related to the means of the ratepayer. That can lead to very great hardship. Consider a widow who remains in the family house when the breadwinner has died. Although the income going into the house may dramatically be reduced, the rates levy is exactly the same. There is no relationship between what has to be paid in rates and the ability of the ratepayer to pay.

We in these benches have advocated and have included in portion of our policy Towards a Just Society the idea that there should be a rates abatement scheme for necessitous people. There is no reason why such a scheme should not operate and operate successfully. The Minister would be more au fait with the matter than I am, but I think I am correct in saying that, within recent years, such a scheme was put into operation in Britain and, so far as I know, has been working successfully. The kind of case I have in mind, the kind of case to which I have referred where the income is dramatically reduced by reason of the death of the breadwinner, is the deserving case that could be catered for and I think should be catered for in a rates abatement scheme.

Deputy O'Leary referred to the payment of rates by instalments. The Minister will correct me if I am wrong but I think it is open to rate collectors to accept payment by instalments if they chose to do so. I do not know if there is any legal sanction for such an arrangement. I do not know whether Deputy O'Leary had this in mind—I think possibly he had—but, if he had, I would support him in regard to it. We should go farther than that. It should not merely be a question of leaving it to the discretion either of the local authority or individual rate collectors. We should give a statutory right to ratepayers to pay by instalments if they prefer to do so.

National taxation and local taxation have risen to such heights that it is now extremely difficult even for the wealthy in the community to keep up with the demand. So far as the local authority is concerned, while exactly the same amount would be collected and paid to them at the end of the year, it might be of great assistance and greatly in ease of the hard-pressed and harassed ratepayer that he should, as a matter of right, be entitled to pay his rates in instalments throughout the year.

Also in our policy Towards a Just Society, we have advocated the establishment of a citizens' advice bureau in each local authority area. I strongly recommend this to the Minister. It may seem small and in some ways a bit of a nuisance to consider it but for the ordinary citizen, in whatever local authority area he may be, it could be a great boon and a great blessing. From the point of view of many Deputies and local public representatives, this might prove of considerable benefit in reducing the work they have to do. I am not advancing the proposition on that basis but very often matters about which Deputies and county councillors and urban district councillors are approached relate to benefits to which the people making the approach are entitled. Very often, they get it into their heads, either because they do not understand the position or because they have a wrong idea about it, that it requires “push” or “pull” to get a housing grant, an old age pension or to benefit under one or other of the various schemes.

I think I speak for many Deputies when I say I would welcome a situation whereby some machinery would be established in each local authority area which would provide the people with a knowledge of the services available to them, with a knowledge of and information about their rights, so that they would not feel they have to go, cap in hand, to anyone, be he a Deputy, a county councillor, an urban district councillor or anyone else, to secure their rights. It would be well worth the Minister's while to consider adopting that part of the Fine Gael policy. After all, in various other matters the Government have not been reluctant to adopt points of the Fine Gael Policy for a Just Society.

I want to finish by saying a few words about road accidents and traffic control generally. When the question of speed limits was first proposed in this House, I did not feel very keen about them. I have forgotten whether I spoke then about the speed limit idea: if I did, I was probably critical of it because I felt that part of the problem in driving was caused by drivers who were too slow. I now say, in any event, that the imposition of speed limits has worked well and satisfactorily and it was worth while imposing these limits, but, by and large, it is still true to say that we cannot effectively legislate against road accidents, and if we are going to have any substantial decrease in road accidents, it will only be if we can get users of the road, whether motorists, cyclists or pedestrians to realise their own personal responsibility to take care when using the roads. I know that by means of publicity and propaganda of all sorts, every effort is being made to instil that idea of personal responsibility into road users and as far as I am concerned the more propaganda and publicity there is to that effect the better it will be.

Mr. Barrett and Mr. O'Connor rose.

Is there not a convention that each side should get a fair time?

I agree, but Deputy Barrett offered.

Two to one—I suppose that is a reasonable allocation of time.

I think it is unfair that all of this has been passed around over there——

It would be most unfair to ask Deputy Barrett to come here two days in succession.

Mr. Barrett

That is a most unfair remark and what I would expect from the Minister.

I drew the attention of the Ceann Comhairle earlier.

The Deputy's name was not mentioned for me.

Mr. Barrett

This happened before when the Minister was called when it was my turn. This Estimate is being taken around the time when any citizen may be interested in his or her fundamental right to be included in the register of electors. He or she has an opportunity of looking at the electors list to see if his or her name and names of members of the family who are entitled to vote are included in the list. This is a fundamental right which belongs to every citizen. Every Deputy, I think, has had occasion to reflect that it is only at election time that people realise that they have the right to vote but quite often under the present legislation, due to haphazard methods of registering electors, they find their names are not on the list. In far too many cases they look for some sinister influence behind their disfranchisement and fail to realise that in them is resident the right to claim a vote, and if they do not do so, nobody can have much sympathy for them. In most cases this disfranchisement is due to the carelessness of the elector himself.

Even since the compilation of the register was taken over from the county registrar and vested in the local bodies there has not been the improvement generally in the compilation that one would expect. In various parts of the country, I have seen the registers and they have been prepared in a most haphazard fashion. Indeed I was told a story which I fully believe, getting it from the source from which I did get it, that in one area the rate collector saved himself much foot-slogging by going to the local school, stopping the little boys and girls coming out and asking: "Is that your daddy?""Is that your mammy?""Is your brother gone to England?""Is your sister 21 yet?" That sort of thing is happening. In my own constituency where the rate collectors do not do this job, there are also areas that are very badly compiled although, happily I think those in the constituency know that is more the exception than the rule. I mention these bad areas so that those people who say that this is a job for the unemployed will realise that they are talking from their hearts more than their heads. Compiling the register is quite difficult and requires a certain standard of intelligence and education which local authorities should look for.

Speaking at local level, I should like to pay tribute to the system of advertising which is maintained in Cork and was started, I think, by the county registrar in his day. It is now maintained by the local authority and under it no citizen with eyes in his head can possibly fail to see that now is the acceptable time to claim his vote and if he does not do so, he might well be disfranchised when an election takes place.

Still on the local level, one thing which continually causes me the greatest disquiet is that for some time now Cork Corporation have been discussing and planning for the construction of an auxiliary fire station on the north side of the city. The plans for this fire station are not going ahead with the expedition I would look for and I would ask the Minister, if any aspect of this matter comes before him for sanction, that he would treat it as a matter of great urgency. There is no doubt in my mind, and I do not think there can be one in the mind of any Deputy representing my constituency, that at peak traffic time between half past five and 6.15, if there were a fire in an institution— and there are many institutions on the north side of the city—where there are old and infirm or very young people in large numbers, with the very best will in the world and co-operation by motorists, pedestrians and everybody else, the fire brigade could not get to the assistance of that institution. It is quite possible that if any outbreak like that took place there would be a holocaust at which we would all hold up our hands in horror and say that somebody had blundered. I ask the Minister to treat this matter with urgency if it comes before his Department.

I welcome very much the Minister's announcement that he is going to publish the little booklet for the use of would-be house purchasers. This is the first instalment, I think, of the Minister's adoption of our citizens advice bureau suggestion in the Fine Gael policy for a just society. It is important that young couples who are anxious to set up house, who are ready almost to take any risk to do so, should get a list of do's and don'ts from the Department which would assist them in the purchase of their houses. When the booklet is published, I hope it will be as outspoken as is possible with the laws of defamation, because there are about 67 different varieties of chancers against whom young house purchasers should be protected and against whom they should be warned. While I am speaking about young couples and housing, this probably is the acceptable time to refer to the housing problem as we find it in Cork city. The Minister, in his speech today, said that some 1,800 houses would be built in probably four to five years. Of course, these 1,800 houses which are to be built in four to five years, have been a feature for the past two years.

They were a feature of the by-election.

Mr. Barrett

They have been a feature of the housing programme for the past two years. The Minister solemnly promised to start building the houses in 1965, so that even if they are built in the next four or five years—I hope they will but I doubt it, because the Minister's bona Fides, if they are to be tested on what already transpired are gravely open to suspicion—it will mean, in effect, that the people of Cork are getting in seven years what they should have had in five years.

In this connection there is one thing about which I think I am well entitled to protest. During the recent by-election campaign in Cork, three of the four candidates who stood for election there were members of Cork Corporation. During the campaign in Cork, the Minister, for reasons best known to himself but guessed at by me and many others, decided to inspect the site to which I am referring. He was accompanied, and rightly so, by officials of the corporation. He was accompaniel, and rightly so, by the Lord Mayor of Cork. I do not object to that, although the Lord Mayor of Cork is a Member of this House and a member of the Minister's Party. However, one thing which I consider was both mean and scandalous and which must be commented upon is this, that of the 30 other members of the corporation, only one member of it was asked on that tour of inspection. He was not the Fine Gael candidate; he was not the Labour candidate; he was the Fianna Fáil candidate, now Deputy French. His photographs appeared in the press and he appeared on the pre-election programme which Fianna Fáil put on Telefís Éireann, accompanying the Minister.

The Minister is quite entitled to invite his friends anywhere he likes. He is quite entitled, in his view anyway, to use things like that for any political purpose, but I do not think he is entitled, by implication, to give rise in the minds of some of the less educated people in Cork, to the belief that the only Party candidate standing for election in the Cork by-election who was interested in re-housing the people was the Minister's colleague, now Deputy French. I think that was wrong, and I should like to protest, in the presence of the Minister, on the matter. We inquired in Cork Corporation and we were assured both by the City Manager and the Lord Mayor, both of whom are honourable men, that no member of the corporation was invited to take part in that tour of inspection. We can take it, therefore, that what the Minister did was for purposes which are transparent and which can only be deplored.

Again on the question of the 1,800 houses to be built, the Minister will recall that he sent his lavish circus, if you like to put it that way, his lavishly decorated caravan through the streets of the city of Cork during the election campaign bearing the slogan: "More houses than ever". Those of us who are familiar with the rate of building maintained by Fianna Fáil realise that that is ambiguous and an almost unappetising phrase, because it would not be hard to be building more houses than Fianna Fáil ever built. Again there was implied there, and it was taken by some people as a promise, that the building of the houses would start immediately. I shall watch with interest and with hope the future of this housing scheme, because we had in Cork Corporation a solemn undertaking from one member of the corporation who was also a Fianna Fáil Deputy that the building of houses in that scheme would start next February. If it does, nobody will be happier than I. I may say that nobody will be more surprised.

I would ask the Minister to consider very seriously the proposition to build 11-storey high flats in Cork. This, of course, is my own personal view, but it is based on the experience of one who has been a member of Cork Corporation for 22 years and a Member of this House for 14 years. In both of those capacities, I have, time after time —and I think Deputy Healy and other Members who represent my constituency here have had the same experience—had people coming to me, people who were housed in flats, thinking of the flimsiest excuses to get out. The fact is that people do not warm to flats, even two- or three-storey flats, and their reaction to 11-storey flats, in my opinion, will be most unappreciative.

I look upon the building of houses as not purely the provision of accommodation for people. You could accommodate a person in a hovel, or you could accommodate him in a mansion and he might not still be happy. What we want to build for the people of Cork, the people of Dublin and of other cities, are homes where they will be contented, with a certain amount of privacy, with a certain amount of togetherness which is not affected by the person who is upstairs or downstairs, the person using the common stairway or the common lift. You deprive the ordinary man and woman and their families of that privacy when you house them together in 11-storey flats. It is all very well for people to say: "I was in Sweden and I saw them, and everybody was delighted." We are not in Sweden here. We have not been brought up in that tradition. You are not going to change this generation, the next generation or the generation after that to accept high-rise flats of this nature and to live happily in them as one would like to see one's own family living.

When the Minister talks here about criteria in respect of housing, he quotes figures of the amount of money being spent compared with the amount of money spent before. That is not the proper criterion to apply to the building of houses. What we want is the number of extra roofs, the number of extra houses, the number of extra foundations laid, as compared to other years. We must not forget this, that due to Fianna Fáil deliberate policy in reducing the number of houses built, we now have to build houses at vastly inflated prices. The number of houses you will now build for £3 million is not at all as great as the number of houses you could have built in the past, and I can give statistics to bear out what I say. In 1957, for instance, Cork Corporation spent £670,000 and built 491 houses. In 1967, they spent £335,000 and built only 128 houses. Therefore talking in terms of increased expenditure is a useless criterion that I would ask the Minister not to use.

With regard to delay in the building of houses. I have said here before, and many Deputies have said the same, that I do not see the reason for what seems in a large number of cases useless duplication of scanning of plans and tenders and various other things for housing schemes and other schemes of that nature. We should make sure that the local experts we put in charge of house building and various other matters are of such a calibre that they can safely he relied upon in regard to the preparation of building schemes and the ultimate building of houses. At the moment you have to send up a draft lay-out of the scheme and the Department sends it back and recommends certain amendments. Then you send the revised lay-out up and down it comes again. Tenders are sent up; they are kept there; and then come down again, and in several different ways you will find that there can be avoidable delays in regard to building schemes and such matters. I remember one member of Cork Corporation—a prominent member of the Minister's Party—regretting at one time that we would never build a scheme called the Closes scheme if the Minister held up the sanction for some section of it which I cannot recall now. There is much too much of that. The Minister should realise, as I am quite sure he does realise, that housing problems are so urgent that delays of that nature should not take place.

I speak subject to correction on this but I understand that housing grants are reduced if some of the materials put into the houses are not of Irish manufacture. This is commendable as a principle, but on the other hand, when we are drifting or going headlong into a free trade area, I wonder is this a sort of concealed protection for Irish manufacturers of certain commodities which are not up to standard compared with British ones. I have been told by a close relative of one commodity which costs £17 10s and is manufactured in Ireland. Another commodity of the same nature but of a better quality costs £13 10s but they have been told that if they put this British commodity into a house, their grant will be reduced. This is the sort of protection we should not give to people of that nature.

With regard to town planning appeals, I do not want to go into legislation but on the administration side, I and many others are dissatisfied with the manner in which decisions of local councils in those matters are completely disregarded by the Minister. They come up to the Minister; the appeals may be heard in public or private or be written or oral evidence and nobody quite often knows what happened.

I do not want to keep the Minister much longer but on the question of road construction, I have on many occasions here advocated another look at our plans in this regard and I have drawn, by Dáil Question, the Minister's attention to a reference in a trade paper recently which deplored the Department's obvious policy of building dual carriageways in places where they would not be needed at all. I feel a lot of this is useless expenditure and I would ask the Minister to look into it.

The traffic survey in Cork has not yet been completed and that has a significance all its own. It means that we are still left with the greatest anachronism of a bridge in this country. I refer to Parnell Bridge opposite the City Hall where there are only two lines of traffic on one of the busiest entries to the city. We are told that this is held up because the traffic survey at present in course of operation in Cork has not been completed. I would be glad if the Minister could give us some indication as to what the plans are in regard to Parnell Bridge for the future or whether he has heard anything in recent times from Cork Corporation in respect of Parnell Bridge.

Finally, in regard to pollution of air. I wonder have we continuous monitoring of the air by automatic analysers so that we establish pollution levels for every hour, day and place. I have advocated this before. I do not know if the Minister intends to do anything about it but it is an important matter. This time last year, my colleague Deputy Healy referred to the same thing. Can the Minister tell us whether anybody has been seconded from the Institute of Research to look into this very important matter?

A Leas-Cheann Comhairle, I am rising to speak on this Estimate but I should like to place on record, first of all, that I stood up to get a chance to speak at the same time as Deputy M.J. O'Higgins sat down. I had been in the House since a quarter to nine. However, in your favour, I will say that as I stood up, Deputy Gallagher spoke to me from the back and I half turned so you may have taken it that I was not rising to speak.

I might say for the Deputy's information that I did not see the Deputy.

Right; I accept that. I am only placing on record that I have been here since a quarter to nine.

So do I.

I should like to place on record that I also noticed what happened and I honestly think Deputy O'Connor was not offering himself when Deputy Barrett was acknowledged.

Deputy Gallagher spoke to me at the back and I half turned because I was watching Deputy O'Higgins.

It has nothing to do with me, but in the interests of the truth, you were not offering.

Anyway I have accepted the position from the Leas-Cheann Comhairle.

In the interests of the truth, Deputy O'Connor said he was offering.

(Cavan): he did not appear to be offering.

He did not appear to me to be offering.

The Leas-Cheann Comhairle is the person.

(Cavan): Deputy O'Connor made it clear that he may not have appeared to have been offering.

That is right.

I was standing up and Deputy Gallagher spoke to me at the back and I half turned for a second.

Mr. Barrett

I was up before you.

Anyway, at the outset I should like to compliment the Minister and the Government on the amount of money that has been provided for housing and housing services this year. The fact that a sum of £26 million as against £9 million in 1961 has been provided shows the effort that has been made by the Government to try to come to grips with our housing problems. We would, of course, in view of the demands that are made on us all over the country for houses at the moment require at least £50 million, but it is all too easy to speak of what should be done, but to find that type of money today is anything but an easy job. If it were possible to get our hands on that type of money, the Government would be most anxious to remedy the colossal backlog that we have arrived at where housing is concerned.

I was rather amazed to hear Deputy Barrett from Cork referring to the number of houses that have been built in Cork city. To me that is comparable with the position in my own county where Killarney Urban Council over 15 years built 12 houses, notwithstanding the fact that we built over all County Kerry 2,000 houses in that time. Kerry County Council cannot be blamed for the position in Killarney and I am sure the Government cannot be blamed entirely for the position in Cork. Corporations must be at fault where this type of backlog exists.

We had a meeting of the housing committee of the county council yesterday and had a general check-up on the position facing us there. We need a total of 900 houses of all types to meet our present housing needs. In that position we have arranged to build at the rate of 210 houses over the next three years, which will give us 600 houses. We hope to have 100 small-type houses built for the old, the husband and wife or the man and woman who have no children, erected within that period and we hope to have 200 essential repair grants carried out which will more or less cover existing needs. We do not expect that we will get to the end of the housing shortage as we know there will be ever-increasing demands. We will always have demands for more houses and there will be more present day houses getting out of the necessary habitable condition and the standards our people need today.

It seems a pity that the Minister cannot see his way to increase the amounts payable by way of grants. Unfortunately, I suppose with the demand for more houses, it is difficult in view of the shortage of money. I do think, however, that we should consider increasing the reconstruction grants. The fact is that £140 to cover water and sewerage is all that can be obtained today for a house that might cost up to £1,200. One-sixth of the total is entirely unlikely, in view of the fact that a person can get one-third of the cost. I think there is room for improvement in reconstruction grants, with a view to getting all the old houses that can be improved reconstructed which will save us having to get new houses erected. This saving would be possible by increasing the reconstruction grants to £200. I would ask the Minister to try and have this done if at all possible.

I was amazed to hear Deputy Barrett say that materials going into our houses in this country could be obtained cheaper and of better quality outside. My firm is particularly engaged in the supply of materials for houses and I can assure everybody in this House that that statement of Deputy Barrett is far from correct. There is no British material that Deputy Barrett can find outside that can be superior to anything we have here. There is a position whereby large quantities of British material of substandard quality are sent in here to compete against our own materials and these materials are going into houses which are served with grants. I particularly refer to felt because it is coming in produced at substandard grade and the British make no bones about that. It is purchased and sold to our people who pay less for it. There are many other articles not from Britain, but which also come from outside, of the same standard but every bit of Irish material, whether cement, plaster, hardboard, boardbond, or blockboard, is of first-class quality and the highest quality that can be obtained in any part of the world, and that is the major part of the material used in any house outside timber. The timber is imported in any case and I do not have to refer to that. All the material, whether it is the earthenware products or anything else, has to comply with and conform to certain standards and they are of the highest quality and standard obtainable.

Further consideration of Vote postponed.

Top
Share