Vol. 232 No. 2
asked the Minister for Social Welfare if his Department have informed the ESB that contractor meter readers will not be insurable under the Social Welfare Acts; and if in view of the grave hardship involved he will take the necessary steps to have this decision withdrawn.
141.
asked the Minister for Social Welfare if he will reconsider his Department's ruling that employment of ESB meter readers is not insurable under the Social Welfare Acts.
With your permission, a Cheann Comhairle, I propose to take Questions Nos. 140 and 141 together.
A question as to the insurability under the Social Welfare Acts of the employment of persons by the ESB as part-time meter readers was raised some months ago, the contention being that they were independent contractors and, accordingly, not employed under a contract of service. Following inquiries, a deciding officer recently decided that the employment was not insurable but one of the meter readers concerned has appealed against that decision. When the formalities relating to the appeal have been completed, the case will be referred to an appeals officer.
While the decision of the appeals officer in the case may be interpreted as affecting all other meter readers similarly employed, it will be open to any meter reader involved to request a decision in his case and, if dissatisfied, to appeal against it.
Appeals officers and deciding officers are statutory officers appointed in accordance with sections 41 and 43 of the Social Welfare Act, 1952, to decide, inter alia, questions as to whether an employment is insurable under the Acts. I have no power to interfere with their decisions but any person who is dissatisfied with the decision of an appeals officer may appeal against it to the High Court but only on a question of law.
(Clare): Is there any provision in the Act that the Minister will take the action so that the expense will not be put on the applicant?
I do not think so. It is open to the aggrieved person to appeal to the court on a question of law.
(Clare): Is there not provision in the Act for the Minister to take proceedings, so as to avoid putting the expense of the proceedings on the applicant?
I shall have that examined.
Could the Minister say if there was a request from somebody to have this investigated, or did the initiative come from his Department? Is he aware that over the years since these people have been stamping their cards, a peculiar position has arisen. A number of them have drawn benefit, but quite a number of them have being paying contributions over the years and have drawn no benefit; now when they would be entitled to old age pensions or some other benefits, they have been deprived of them because a test case, apparently, was taken by the Department. Would the Minister say if he considers this is a fair way of dealing with something like this?
It would appear this has been going on between my Department and the ESB for some time, taking each case on its merits. The insurability of particular employees is laid down in the Schedule to the 1952 Act, and, as far as I see, each case would be dealt with on its merits, because the duration of the employment, the question of its permanency, the question of a contract of service, these are the things which actually determine whether a person is insurable or not.
Is the Minister aware that the ESB have notified all the employees, that is, contractor meter readers, that as from 1st January, they will no longer have their insurance cards stamped? This is as a result of a decision given by an inspector of the Department of Social Welfare. In the circumstances, would the Minister have the matter investigated, because it does appear as if, on one case, a decision relating to all these employees is being made, not as the Minister says.
It is not true to say the ESB notified all the employees. They may have notified all their temporary meter readers.
All the employees referred to in my question.
Those meter readers who are employed in a temporary capacity, not under a contract of service, because it is defined in the schedule to the Act what an insurable person is. In this case the deciding officer decided that a particular person was not insurable. He was actually an applicant under the Occupational Injuries Act. He has appealed and we are taking this decision as a test case. I think this is quite a good basis for any further decisions that may be necessary.
In the meantime, would the Minister ensure that the ESB will continue to stamp the cards of the employees I have referred to in the question until the final decision is given. Surely that is a reasonable request. Otherwise it will mean that the stamping of the card will have stopped and there will have to be a fresh application and a fresh appeal made by each individual employee with consequent upset to both the Department and the people concerned.
I would rather consider it necessary only to suspend, until this case is decided, any decision on the application for a refund made by the ESB in respect of contributions made. The question of stamping cards is only a matter of a few weeks. They could be stamped in arrears if necessary.
If these people are out of benefit now, it could affect them at a later date. Could the Minister say why the ESB should send out a circular to employees informing them that their cards will not be stamped if, as the Minister says, the matter has not been finally decided? I can give a copy of the circular to the Minister if he wants it.
The matter is finally decided as far as we are concerned until the appeal is allowed.
They can stamp cards as much as they like until they want some benefit, and then they are not entitled to it.
