Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 7 Feb 1968

Vol. 232 No. 4

Committee on Finance. - Adjournment Debate: Cobh Fish Landing Charges.

Mr. Corry

When I raised this matter earlier, I was rather amused by the Minister's reply. We were informed that the charges were authorised ten years ago, in 1957. A lot of water has gone under the bridge since then. I do not know where the Minister got the figures he gave afterwards in reply to my supplementary, but it reminds me of all the other questions that one asks of the Department of Transport and Power. I remember asking a question here one day in connection with the railway facilities to Cobh, and the Minister solemnly assured me that there was a most efficient bus service to Cobh, which had not seen a CIE bus for 25 years; and those figures that the Minister has given here today are in line with that. I do not know where he got them but he should try to get some reliable information.

The reply further stated that the Minister has to sanction the charges. I am asking him now, as a matter of urgency relating to industry, to review this matter. The one black spot we have is the fishing industry. Every other industry in this State has increased its exports over the past 12 months. The fishing industry, according to the statistics, is down on last year's export figures by £32,000. We would have increased our exports were it not for the mess that is being made there.

The Minister talked about the Harbour Commissioners and the area of which they are in charge. The Cork Harbour Commissioners Bill went through this House, one of the most outrageous pieces of legislation that was ever passed here. Under that Bill the county representatives were removed from the board, and the whole Cobh area is now represented by two men, one representing Cobh Urban Council and the other appointed by the Minister.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is not in order in criticising legislation that has passed through the House.

Mr. Corry

I am not criticising it. I am telling the position to the Minister who informs me of the people who are in charge of the area. I can tell him how these charges were imposed. When the secretary of the Harbour Board went in, he said: "I am sorry, gentlemen, but I have increased costs this year amounting to £100,000." One gentleman representing the coal industry says: "You are not going to put it on my coal." Another gentleman says: "You are not going to put it on my grain." A third gentleman says: "You are not going to put it on my rubber." There was nothing left to put it on except the unfortunate farmers' fertilisers and the fish. This is a complete change as far as Cobh is concerned. The town of Cobh has lost completely the liner traffic it had. The liners are no longer calling there, due again to the activities that were engaged in. The airport that should be beside Cobh has been moved over to Farmers' Cross, although it has been said that that location is unsuitable due to fog. These are the things under which we suffer, and it is about time that a bunch of pirates above in the tail end of the stream ceased their authority over a good harbour. These dues are imposed to cover the cost of dredging in the tail end of that stream.

These people, the southern fishing fleet, were fishing over in Dunmore East. They had to travel a day without getting fish and they were hitting the tail end of Cork Harbour, and suddenly they found themselves in the middle of plenty, in the middle of shoals of fish. It took them a day to get back; they were losing two days fishing with one catch, and they then very wisely decided that they would shift from Dunmore East into Cobh for their fishing. What happened to them? The landing charges in Dunmore East were 3d a cran; in addition to that there was a charge of £5 per year for the amenities of the port. When they came into Cobh, they found that the 3d a cran became 6d and that instead of paying £5 a year, they paid, according to the size of their boats, anything from 25s to 30s every time they came into Cobh with their catch.

The Minister states that this is a commercial harbour. Commercial for what? It is a dead harbour at present except for the ships that pass through it up to the pirates' lair in Cork. If we are to improve our fishing industry, if we are to go ahead and provide something for the town of Cobh instead of the liners which have ceased to call, here is the opportunity. At present there is no commercial trade so far as shipping is concerned in Cobh. Ships just pass through, going up to Cork city. That is all they are doing. We are endeavouring now to establish Cobh as a shipping port.

I am asking the Minister to instruct the Cork Harbour Commissioners to charge the same rate at Cobh as is charged at Dunmore East and other ports in Donegal and other counties. I do not think that is asking anything unfair and it will make a difference of, perhaps, £½ million a year in our exports of fish because we have facilities there such as cold storage. We can provide the facilities and we are prepared to provide them.

If this is to be fought, it will be a long fight and a bitter fight, and I can promise the Minister that the people will win. We have them from all parts of the country. We have six from your country, a Cheann Comhairle. We have five or six more from Wexford. We have some from Waterford, from Dublin, from Howth and Dún Laoghaire, in the town of Cobh earning this money from exports which the country so badly needs. Are we to be deprived of it because of the action of a bunch of pirates? I can think of no fitter description for this old pals movement: "You do not vote to increase the harbour dues on my coal and I will not vote to increase the harbour dues on your grain." That is the way the game is played. Moryah, it is business.

I appeal to the Minister quite honestly to do this. He has the power to do it. If he had not, I would not ask him. If he writes down tomorrow morning and tells Cork Harbour Commissioners to charge the same dues on fishing boats coming into Cobh harbour—not Cork—as are charged in other fishing centres, I guarantee to him that Cork Harbour Commissioners will do their job. Otherwise, I will make them do it. That is it, short and sweet. I am leaving it in the hands of the Minister to do his job. There was a drop of £32,000 in our exports of fish during the past 12 months. I can honestly say that I was not greatly interested in this phase of the fishing industry, but I now know that for six weeks these men could fish only three days a week because of the marketing position. There was a loss of £100,000 worth of fish in those six weeks. If the Minister does his part, I guarantee on my own behalf and on behalf of the fishermen concerned, that the position in regard to his Estimate will be far happier this time 12 months than it will be tomorrow when we are dealing with it.

Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Transport and Power (Mr. Lalor)

Deputy Corry has made quite an elaborate case here as to why the harbour dues should be reduced by the Cork Harbour Commissioners in relation to the increased herring fishing that has taken place in the Cork harbour area or, as he prefers to describe it, the Cobh harbour area over the past couple of months.

Let me say first of all in reply to his question in the House today, I pointed out that these charges were approved 11 years ago by order of the Minister at that time, and that on application by the harbour authorities, the Minister makes an order confirming the harbour charges. They have to be advertised and persons may make objections to them. Those objections are considered by the Minister. I accept that it is probably unfair to fling that type of reply back at Deputy Corry because the emergence of herring fishing in the Cork harbour area has only now drawn attention to the problem at this stage.

I want to point out that the charges set by Cork Harbour Commissioners are the maximum charges set, as I already pointed out to-day in reply to the question. There is no reason why Cork Harbour Commissioners could not reduce that figure and, in fact, if they decided to do so, I could not prevent them. They do not need my sanction in any shape or form. So I am rather surprised that Deputy Corry should ask me or the Minister to dictate to Cork Harbour Commissioners in this regard without first having taken up the matter directly with them. Deputy Corry alleged tonight that Cork Harbour Commissioners——

Mr. Corry

——are a corrupt body.

Mr. Lalor

——are opposed to the development of Cobh as such. I think that is rather an unfair charge. Knowing Deputy Corry so well. I can appreciate the point the Deputy makes about various people with various interests opposing an increase in harbour dues on coal and grain and rubber but also, knowing him so well, I can imagine that if there were any increases, especially on grain coming in, he would have a different story to bring into this House. I am quite satisfied that he would again have a question in the House in regard to increased harbour dues on imported grain and he would have me back on the Adjournment to see if there was anything I could do to prevent the harbour authorities from increasing harbour dues on the importation of grain. Similarly, if there was an increase in harbour dues on raw rubber, the same case could be made on behalf of the workers in Dunlops. Those are facts.

I think it is unfair of Deputy Corry to suggest that Cork harbour is in itself just a place at the end of the steam that needs to be dredged in order to keep it there. That is too derogatory a remark about Cork harbour and certainly I think the proper approach in this instance would have been direct to the Cork Harbour authorities stressing that this is a new development. We must appreciate that the coming of the fishing fleet into Cobh over the past two months has been a new development due to the movement of herring shoals in that specific area. I already pointed out to the Deputy when he mentioned that he did not know where I got my figures—I notice that Deputy Corry was quite careful not to use a figure which he used to-day during Question Time, a figure of £1,786 which he said the harbour authorities had collected by way of dues from the fishermen of this area over the past six weeks——

Mr. Corry

Dues and landing charges.

Mr. Lalor

——taking dues as being the overall coverage, covering the tonnage rates and the goods rates, and in reply I said to-day to the Deputy that during the month of December, which is the one month for which at the moment we can say we have figures supplied to us by the Cork harbour authorities, 106 Irish fishing vessels entered the port and the total harbour dues incurred were £104 14s. in tonnage rates and £96 15s. in goods rates. That would be the cran charge to which the Deputy referred. The total amount taken in by Cork Harbour Commissioners during the month of December in dues, therefore, was £201 9s. That came from 106 vessels entering the port in that period. In the period from 1st January to 23rd January, 85 vessels entered. I have not figures for dues collected during that period but Deputy Corry has mentioned——

Mr. Corry

31 fishing vessels.

Mr. Lalor

——when speaking now, and again when speaking yesterday, asking supplementary questions arising from a question to the Minister for Agriculture, that there was a certain restriction due to marketing difficulties but I assume that you had in or about the same number of fishing vessels in the month of January as December. I assume the average was the same and that is a pretty fair assumption, I should say. I think the figure taken in harbour dues was something in the region of £400 which would be about one-quarter of the figure claimed by the Deputy when asking his supplementaries to-day. I also mentioned in replying to-day that the total figure of £201 which had been collected in toto from those 106 fishing vessels during the month of December was out of a total of £23,000 which would have been the approximate income from the sale of this fish. That would be roughly £217 worth of fish sold from each vessel during the month of December. Out of that £217 Cork Harbour Commissioners looked for £1 18s. and Deputy Corry feels that act of piracy is something which justifies raising this matter on the Adjournment.

Mr. Corry

Thirty shillings a day.

Mr. Lalor

I am giving an extra 8s.—38s.—which is the average charge per vessel per visit of those fishing boats which came into Cobh during the month of December. That is worked out on a tonnage basis of 19/9 on average and this goods rate of five and four-fifths pence, say sixpence.

Mr. Corry

The people will have a great laugh at your figures to-morrow.

Mr. Lalor

It is a question of who will have the last laugh in relation to the straightforward statement of facts in this matter. I suggest that Cork Harbour Commissioners, irrespective of what Deputy Corry says, are representative of a wide variety of all business interests in Cork.

Mr. Corry

In Cork city alone.

Mr. Lalor

Not alone that, but I am satisfied that these people are very interested in the development of Cobh Harbour and Cork Harbour and it is rather remarkable that Deputy Corry who knows that Whitegate and Haulbowline and Rushbrooke are all in the lower harbour should say that this particular port is only developed in the upper river, or the mouth of the stream, as he says.

I am rather surprised at this. I think the more rational approach, if it is a case that the fishermen feel they are being overburdened with dues, would be to make a reasonable approach to Cork Harbour Commissioners with a view to seeing if they would reduce the actual fees. I think that coming up to the Dáil and slating the Commissioners on this matter is not the best approach and I believe that if a logical case were put up to them, they would deal with it in a reasonable manner. I think the coming of the herring shoals to Cobh is something that brought profit to that area and I do not think that the creation of civil war between Cobh and Cork is the ideal way of dealing with this situation. I suggest that reason should prevail and that a rational approach be made to the Harbour Commissioners to ascertain their views. Certainly, there is no question of the necessity for the Minister's or my approval to any reduced rates. The maximum rates are those that are fixed and the Commissioners can reduce these as they see fit but they cannot charge any more than the maximum.

Mr. Corry

I shall deal with them in my own way.

The Dáil adjourned at 11 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Thursday, 8th February, 1968.