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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 29 Feb 1968

Vol. 232 No. 14

Committee on Finance. - Vote 37—Agriculture.

I move:

That a supplementary sum not exceeding £9,646,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1968, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries, including certain Services administered by that Office, and for payment of certain Subsidies and sundry Grants-in-Aid.

The net amount of this Supplementary Estimate, added to the original Estimate for 1967-68, will bring the total net expenditure from the Vote for Agriculture to £49,683,000.

Two items—Milk (Subhead N.1) and Meat (Subhead K.21)—account for the greater part of the additional sum now required, but substantial amounts are also needed for Lime and Fertilisers Subsidies (Subhead K.9); Bovine Tuberculosis Eradication Scheme (Subhead (K.12); Losses on Disposal of Wheat (Subhead K.20); Land Project (Subhead K.8) and in connection with the Diseases of Animals Act, 1966 (Subhead L.1) which provides largely for expenditure on the special precautions necessitated by the outbreak of foot and mouth disease in Britain. The gross total of the additional sums required under the various subheads amounts to over £11 million but against this it is now estimated that Appropriations-in-Aid will be £472,000 greater than the original provision and also that there will be savings on other subheads of the Vote amounting to over £990,000.

As Deputies are aware, my Department has, ever since the very serious foot and mouth disease epidemic started in Britain last October, been engaged in a massive and unremitting effort to keep the disease out of this country. This was perhaps the gravest crisis which has confronted us in agriculture for many a long year. There is, I am sure, no need for me at this stage to give details of all the various restrictions and controls that we have been operating. The number of Statutory Orders made since last October is no less than 24. They have affected every aspect of our economic life and have borne heavily on many people. The effort and the sacrifices have happily proved worthwhile, and here I feel I should publicly acknowledge, once again, the co-operation of all our people, including our people in Britain, and their truly remarkable understanding of the seriousness and needs of the situation with which the country has been faced.

The veterinary staff resources of the British Ministry were very heavily taxed during the outbreaks and I arranged to send to Britain at various times a total of 27 officers from the veterinary staff of my Department to work with the Ministry's staff in combating the disease. The British Minister, Mr. Peart, has sent me a personal letter of appreciation of this arrangement and of the good work done by our staff in Britain.

I have gradually cased the restrictions according as this was justified by developments in the disease situation in Britain. I was recently able to announce further relaxations as a result of which trading generally may be resumed at marts and fairs on and from 29th February and the various sports which have been under restriction may be resumed as from 22nd February.

As to the source of the outbreaks, the view is commonly taken that imported meat is probably responsible. The British Government have temporarily suspended imports from certain countries where the disease is endemic. The British Government have also decided to establish a committee to examine all aspects of the epidemic and the findings of this committee will be of great interest and importance to us. We have thought well to bring to the notice of the British Government our concern lest a resumption of meat imports from certain countries might lead to further infection.

The additional expense incurred by my Department up to 31st March in connection with the operation of our various restrictions and controls is estimated at £147,000. This is, however, only a very small amount to pay to avert the economic disaster that an outbreak of foot and mouth disease in this country would represent and I am sure that Deputies will agree that it is money well spent.

Total Exchequer payments in support of creamery milk prices in 1967-68 are now estimated at £19.2 million, the highest figure ever recorded. Five years ago the figure was only £3.2 million. Of the total requirement of £19.2 million this year, £15,875,000 is in respect of milk production allowances including the special allowance for quality milk, and £3,300,000 is for payments to Bord Bainne. The current rate of Exchequer support works out at an average of about 10d per gallon as compared with 8d in 1966 and 2.3d five years ago. The total creamery milk cheque in 1967 is estimated at £51 million compared with £27 million five years previously. The average supplier of quality milk to a creamery is now receiving about £175 of his annual milk cheque from the Exchequer.

The sharp increase over the years in the support for milk is a clear indication of the importance the Government attach to the dairying industry. However, it is necessary for me to say that the rate at which the total bill is mounting, as a result of the growth in production and the various increases in the allowances must cause some concern in relation to the fact that so high a proportion of the resources which can be made available for agriculture is now spent on one sector. Another problem is that milk production has been growing in other countries as well as here. Milk support is now costing the EEC some $800 million per annum and possibly more and the Community has a very large surplus of butter, some of which is being offered in world markets at very low prices.

The additional sum of £3,805,000 provided under Subhead N.1 to make up the total figure of £19.2 million required for 1967-68 consists of £3,573,000 for the milk production allowances, including the special allowance for quality milk, and £232,000 for payments to Bord Bainne in respect of export losses. Three principal factors are responsible for this increase —the sharp rise in milk production in 1967; the decision announced in the 1967 Budget to raise the milk price allowance from 6d to 7d per gallon from 1st May, 1967; and an improvement in performance under the creamery milk quality grading scheme. The bonus for quality milk was, of course, increased from 1d to 2d a gallon on 1st April, 1967.

Preliminary figures show that deliveries of milk to creameries in 1967 were 473 million gallons, an increase of some 60 million gallons, or 14 per cent on the previous year. Both in total and in the amount of the increase the 1967 deliveries represent an all-time record.

Performance under the creamery milk quality grading scheme has shown a remarkable improvement. When the original Estimate was framed it was thought that the proportion of milk which would qualify for the special allowance in the 1967 season would be about 55 per cent as compared with 48 per cent in 1966. The returns for 1967 now show that the proportion qualifying for the quality allowance was as much as 66 per cent. The total cost of this special allowance is now put at £2.54 million, or £652,000 more than the original Estimate. Some of this increase is, of course, due to the rise in milk production but the major part is the result of the greater care which suppliers are taking with their production methods. The doubling of the incentive by raising the rate of the special quality allowance from 1d to 2d per gallon last April was, I am sure, an important factor in producing the greatly improved results in 1967. I feel confident that with the very worthwhile bonus now obtainable for quality milk, the proportion qualifying for the bonus will continue to increase until the vast bulk of the creamery milk supply qualifies.

The grants which I introduced last year to help milk producers to instal milk coolers are a further help in this direction. While farmers have not so far availed themselves of these grants to the extent envisaged, experience up to the end of 1967 has been reasonably satisfactory. Nearly 1,500 grants amounting to over £9,000 had been paid by 31st December and a sum of £20,000 is being provided in the Supplementary Estimate for the scheme.

The increased exports of butter, cheese and other dairy products which have resulted from the rise in milk production involve an increase in the grant to An Bord Bainne in respect of the Exchequer's contribution towards export losses and subsidies. The requirement under this head is now £3.3 million or £232,000 more than the original provision. The grant is calculated at two-thirds of the Board's export losses and subsidies.

As Deputies know, the question of the reorganisation of the creamery industry has been on the mat for a long time. Various ideas were ventilated but nothing final or definite seemed to emerge. On the recommendation of the National Agricultural Council, I made arrangements for a thorough objective examination of the question by two eminent US consultants. Their report will be available in a few months and will, I am sure, be of considerable help when final decisions are being taken on this matter which is so vital to the long-term interests of the industry.

An additional sum of £4,900,000 is needed to meet the cost of the support payments on the record exports of carcase meat to Britain during the past year. Exports of carcase beef eligible for support payments rose to an unprecedented level during the year and it is estimated that by the end of March support payments will have been made on 105,000 tons—representing over 400,000 cattle—at a cost of about £5,900,000. Exports of eligible mutton and lamb during the year are estimated at 9,000 tons on which support payments of about £500,000 will be made, making a gross total of £6,400,000 in all on beef, mutton and lamb. As against those payments, we will receive from the British Government, under the terms of the Free Trade Area Agreement, the average UK fatstock guarantee on 25,000 tons of carcase beef and 5,500 tons of carcase mutton and lamb. The precise amount cannot be calculated until after the end of the British fatstock year on 31st March next; it will probably be something over £1½ million of which roughly one-half would be received before then and the balance early in the coming financial year. The net cost of supporting the exports in question will therefore be nearly £5 million.

I might add that there was also a very satisfactory increase in exports of boneless manufacturing beef to the United States, the quantity shipped in 1967 being 36,000 tons valued at over £12 million compared with 18,700 tons, valued at £6 million in 1966.

The past year was, on the whole, a good one for the cattle trade. Despite the gloomy prognostications emanating from various sources, the very considerable number of extra cattle carried over from 1966 were marketed throughout the year at reasonable prices and in an orderly manner as exported stores or as carcase beef through the meat factories. I have already referred to the record exports of beef. Our exports of store cattle to Britain during 1967 exceeded 600,000 head as compared with 391,000 head in 1966 and were it not for the disruption caused by the unfortunate outbreaks of foot and mouth disease in Britain, the total for the year would have been very close to, and might well have exceeded, the level of 638,000 head envisaged in the Free Trade Area Agreement.

There can be no doubt that the support of beef, mutton and lamb exports, which is partly financed by payments from the British Government in accordance with arrangements made under the Free Trade Area Agreement, together with the guaranteed prices paid under that Agreement for our stores fattened in Britain have been powerful factors in maintaining the cattle and sheep industry in good shape during the past year, despite the big carryover of stock from 1966. As Deputies are aware, I have also made arrangements under which any producer can have the beef export subsidy paid to him direct by my Department.

So far as can be judged, the prospects for 1968 seem good. There should be a good demand for our store cattle from British feeders and our exports of beef, both to Britain and the US, should be at a satisfactory level. It is not possible, however, to be very optimistic about exports of cattle and beef to the EEC, so long as we are not members of the Community. The high level of protection maintained by the EEC makes exports to the Community area completely unprofitable. For example, at the moment a levy of about £40 per head plus a duty of 16 per cent is payable on imports of cattle into Germany and Italy. It is clearly impossible for us to surmount barriers of this order.

As I have already announced, I propose to set up a board with promotional and development functions in relation to export marketings of livestock (cattle and sheep) and meat. The arrangements for the establishment of this body are well-advanced and I hope to make a more detailed announcement before very long.

There is a small provision in the Estimate in respect of headage payments on fat cattle exported to Britain. This is intended to cover a small number of payments in respect of exports under the scheme in operation in the autumn of 1966, which were not finally cleared until after the end of the 1966-67 financial year.

In order to help to provide an alternative outlet for pigs during the strike at bacon factories, which began on 20th October last, I arranged that an appropriate subsidy would be paid on exports of live pigs. The subsidy was initially fixed at 80/- per pig but this was later increased to a total of 100/- in order to cover the extra transport and other costs arising. When work resumed at the bacon factories on 8th November, I considered it desirable to keep this export subsidy in operation for a further couple of weeks so as to assist the disposal of the backlog of pigs with producers. In all about 3,600 live pigs qualified for the subsidy at a total cost of approximately £18,000. The subsidy was paid through the Pigs and Bacon Commission and the amount involved will have to be repaid to the Commission from Subhead K.19. I might add that in addition to subsidising the export of live pigs at that time I arranged that minimum guaranteed prices would be paid for a period after the strike, for pigs which exceeded the normal weight ranges for the top grades. These two measures contributed greatly towards offsetting any hardship occasioned to producers by the strike.

While, apparently due largely to the operation of the famous and mysterious "pig cycle", the level of pig production in 1967 was lower than it was in 1965 or 1966, these two years were in fact record years and by comparison with other years the 1967 level was reasonably good. It was not very much below the levels of the years 1961 to 1964 and it was higher than in any of the 20 years back from 1960. There is, however, considerable scope for increased pig production. We have assured market outlets for all the pigmeat we can produce and there are guaranteed minimum prices for all the top grades. At the moment I am having a special look at the position in regard to pig and feed prices and I am hopeful that it will be possible to make some adjustments which will give greater encouragement to pig production, especially in the West where increased pig production could do much to add to the income of small farmers.

An additional sum of £76,500 is required to meet the expenditure incurred this year under the Mountain Lamb Subsidy Scheme. This scheme replaced the Wether Lamb and Hogget Ewe Subsidy Schemes which were introduced in the previous year. The present scheme is in fact an extension of the Wether Lamb Subsidy Scheme and provides for payment to mountain farmers of a subsidy at the rate of 10/-per head on all good quality lambs of the Blackface and Cheviot breeds produced in mountain flocks. The sale clause in the previous scheme for wether lambs was dropped in the new scheme and this made it possible to hold inspections in the mountain areas, mainly at dipping centres, thus facilitating the mountain flockowners. There were in all 550 inspection centres this year compared with 67 centres—all at sales and fairs—in the previous year, and some 350,000 lambs were earmarked for subsidy. Another feature of the new scheme was the inclusion of a condition that all lambs presented for subsidy must be dipped. The insertion of this clause gave an impetus to the campaign for the elimination of sheep scab. The cost of the scheme in the current year is expected to come to £176,500 of which all but £1,000—for penning and ear-marking equipment and other miscellaneous expenses—went to the mountain sheep farmers.

The success of the scheme this year can be judged by the response of the mountain sheep farmers in presenting so many lambs for inspection and by the increase of about £130,000 in the amount of direct financial assistance which they received as compared with last year. The scheme is providing a worthwhile stimulus to increased productivity in mountain flocks and by helping in the elimination of sheep scab, it plays an important part in improving health standards amongst mountain sheep. I am having the results obtained this year examined to see if there are any changes which experience may show to be desirable in the future operation of the scheme.

The gross expenditure on the Bovine Tuberculosis Eradication Scheme is up by £587,000 on the amount already voted, the main reason being that the Department has taken up more reacting animals this year than had originally been anticipated. However, this excess is very largely counterbalanced by increased salvage receipts, which bring the net excess expenditure down to £100,000.

The extremely low level of warble infestation in the national cattle herd brought about by the success of the Warble Fly Eradication Scheme over the past few years has enabled us to discontinue the compulsory dressing of all cattle in the autumn. It is necessary, however, to ensure that any cattle which show evidence of warble infestation in the spring are dressed so as to eliminate sources of reinfestation and complete the eradication campaign. With this end in view I have made the Warble Fly (Notification and Treatment) Order, 1967, which obliges herd owners who have cattle showing warbles in the period from the 1st February to the 31st August to notify my Department. Such cattle will be treated free but a charge of 5/- will be made for the treatment of each warbled animal in cases where my Department is not notified. The Order also prohibits the movement of cattle showing warbles unless they have been treated and certified by my Department.

I regard the present stage in the campaign for the eradication of the warble fly as a very critical one. If all farmers co-operate by keeping a close eye on their cattle during the specified period and by giving notice where warbles are observed, we can speedily bring about the final eradication of this pest. On the other hand, indifference by farmers at this stage can only result in the re-infestation of their own and neighbouring herds and jeopardise the success of the programme. I would, therefore, earnestly appeal to all herdowners to be meticulous in examining their stock frequently between now and next August and in immediately notifying the Department's district veterinary office if any evidence of warble infestation is observed.

The provision of £18,000 in Subhead K.10 in respect of the Warble Fly Eradication Campaign is offset by a corresponding appropriation-in-aid in Subhead P (32) and (33). Of this provision, £6,000 represents the cost of dressing animals for warble during the year. The balance of £12,000 will be paid into the Warble Fly Eradication Account from which compensation is paid to farmers for any losses attributable to the treatment.

The provision of £440,000 in Subhead K.20 relates to a payment to An Bord Gráin to meet the Board's losses on the sale of about 27,000 tons of potentially millable wheat of the 1967 crop as animal food. Farmers were, of course, paid the millable wheat price for this wheat. The amount will be recouped to the Exchequer by means of a customs duty on imported milling wheat.

Flour millers purchased 203,000 tons of wheat from the 1967 wheat harvest at the full millable price. This represented 90 per cent of the crop. Of this quantity 168,000 tons was fully millable, and 35,000 tons was purchased as potentially millable. Flour millers could not, however, use for flour milling all the potentially millable wheat bought at the full millable price: 27,000 tons had to be diverted for sale by An Bord Gráin as animal feed at a price in line with current feed grain prices. These are about £17 per ton below the price paid to the growers for the potentially millable wheat. This year the flour millers increased their use of native wheat in the grist from 37½ per cent to 55 per cent in order to absorb all the millable wheat produced. If the 27,000 tons could have been used for flour milling, its cost would have had to be borne in the cost of flour. It is logical that its cost should still be so borne and the import duty is being imposed on imported wheat to meet it.

A sum of £400,000 is required under Subhead K.8 to meet additional expenditure on grants to farmers under the Land Project. I am pleased to be able to tell the House that there has been a considerable reduction in the time taken to deal with applications, with the result that the number of grants falling due for payment has increased substantially.

Under Subhead K.9. I am seeking an extra £610,000, made up of £150,000 for ground limestone, £430,000 for phosphates and £30,000 for potash.

In the year to March, 1967, deliveries of ground limestone reached the record level of 1,565,000 tons. There were exceptionally high deliveries in the months of January-March, 1967, accounts for which were not received in time for payment in 1966-67 and had to be met from this year's provision. Furthermore, in the present year consumption has proved higher than originally expected. Increased usage of ground limestone is of course greatly to be welcomed.

The year to June 1967 was one of record application of all the major fertilisers—nitrogen, phosphate and potash. This increased rate of consumption is being maintained in the present year. It is very encouraging to see that the intensive publicity campaign we launched last year in association with other interests, including county committees of agriculture and manufacturers, has proved such a success. I am sure that nobody will object to the provision now being sought which brings the total of lime and fertilisers subsidies to almost £6 million. Greater usage of lime fertilisers is an absolute essential for any worthwhile increase in agricultural production and I would urge farmers to expand still further their usage.

The scheme of grants for glasshouse nurseries was brought into operation in March, 1967. As the scheme was a new one, our original estimate of its cost was necessarily a tentative one. In the event, some 200 applications for grants were received and approval entailing grant expenditure in the region of £300,000 has issued for the construction of over 40 acres of new glasshouses and for the modernisation of existing units. Not all this expenditure will mature for payment before 31st March, but to date claims for grants amounting to £80,000 have been paid, further claims to the amount of £20,000 have been received, and it is reckoned that an additional £50,000 will be required to meet grants falling due for payment within the present financial year.

The purpose of this scheme is to provide the most modern type of houses and ancillary systems of heating, ventilation, irrigation, etc. in order to equip our glasshouse industry not only to serve the needs of the home market but within a short space to face up to competition in export markets. I consider it a good sign that growers are prepared to accept this challenge and to contribute their own money in the ratio of two to one of that provided by the State towards the modernisation of their industry.

Under Subhead D.10, I am seeking an additional £5,000 for the Farm Apprenticeship Scheme. This arises because we are increasing the grant towards the administrative expenses of the Farm Apprenticeship Board and also increasing the provision for awards to apprentices. These awards are £500 each and are paid to apprentices who complete their apprenticeship and pass the prescribed tests with special merit. More young men than anticipated originally are eligible to sit for the final examination and so complete for the £500 awards this year.

Under the Scheme of Instalment Credit Facilities for the Purchase of Dairy Livestock introduced in 1966, a special arrangement was made with the Agricultural Credit Corporation that loans issued up to 31st December, 1966, would be at a substantially reduced rate of interest, 2½ per cent per annum, the resulting loss of interest to be recouped by my Department. Extra expenditure of £4,000 was incurred in 1967-68 under that heading. A further £1,000 over the amount estimated was necessary to recoup the Corporation in respect of three cases of irrecoverable losses under sundry guaranteed loan schemes. Accordingly, a further sum of £5,000 is provided under Subhead K.3.

The provision of £2,600 in Subhead K.K.6 is to cover the travelling and subsistence expenses of the National Agricultural Council in the first year of its existence.

It is now about a year since the Council was established and I should like to place on record my conviction that it has in that period fulfilled very effectively the purpose for which it was brought into existence, which was to provide a means by which the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries could discuss with representative members of the farming community the problems confronting the agricultural industry. That this can be done in an unemotional and constructive atmosphere has been proved at every meeting of the Council held since its inception.

Of course, as well all know, the Council has, from the beginning, been the subject of criticism by certain hostile interests in this country who have tried to undermine the confidence of the farming community in the Council. These efforts have not succeeded and there is now a growing realisation among farmers and the general public that the Council has in fact shown itself to be a very useful forum which enables the farmers to bring their views to bear on the Government's agricultural policy and to influence it in a very direct way. While on the subject of the Council, I would add that I have made it clear on more than one occasion that both the Government and I stand ready to work in close and constructive collaboration with all farming organisations for the benefit of Irish agriculture. That is still the position.

With the inclusion of the additional sums I am now seeking in respect of such items as beef and dairy produce subsidies, the total of State expenditure in relation to agriculture in 1967-68 is now estimated to be in the region of £69 million, of which about 38 per cent is for price support and the balance represents aids to increased productivity and reduction of costs. This record sum is much in excess of the amount estimated at the beginning of the year.

In conclusion, I should like to say something briefly about the general outturn for agriculture in 1967. It was a good year. A number of factors— principally the strong demand for cattle and beef in Britain and the United States, a record level of milk production and an increase in the tillage acreage—suggest that there was a substantial increase in the value of agricultural output and in income. The weather was generally favourable, crop yields were good and increased prices operated for a number of products. It was a record year for agricultural exports.

We have a motion to reduce the Supplementary Estimate and I assume that it is being taken in conjunction with the Estimate?

Does that give me the right to reply at the end?

No, it would not give the Deputy the right to reply.

In those circumstances, I move:

That the Vote be reduced by £2,600 in respect of subhead K.K.6 —National Agricultural Council.

That is the amount in the Vote to cover travelling and subsistence allowances for the members of the so-called NAC. This is a very small sum having regard to the size of the overall Estimate and even having regard to the size of the Supplementary Estimate placed before us here today. It is certainly not on account of the sum we are objecting. We are objecting because we feel this money is being provided to keep in existence what I think can fairly and can only be defined as a glorified Fianna Fáil cumann.

As we know, it was set up at a time when the farmers were at war with the Government and at a time when ill-feeling and resentment were at their height. I think any sensible Minister for Agriculture should have recognised that this was not a time to attempt to set up a national agricultural council that would be representative of all farm units in the country. Unfortunately that was the time selected to do this. What have we got? We have a small body whose advice the Minister says he values very much. I am sure some of them have good advice to give but they are a small selected group, a large percentage of whom have been picked by the Minister, and consequently they are suspect by the majority of the farmers who have no confidence in what they recommend.

Many of the members of this body do not belong to any organised group of farmers and can speak only for themselves as individuals. I am sure some of them, as individuals, can give sensible advice but they cannot claim to be qualified to represent the farmers of Ireland; and it is too bad, and very difficult to understand, that the Minister should want to keep in existence a group of this kind when their continued existence has the effect of preventing the setting up of a worthwhile National Agricultural Council with whom the Minister could work and who could be of immense value to any Minister for Agriculture.

Until we get mutual trust and confidence between the Government and the farmers, no programme for agricultural development and expansion can hope to succeed. At a time when the Minister should be making an all-out effort to bring that kind of relationship about, he is, in fact, asking us to provide money to keep in existence this small group of people when he knows their existence is resented by the majority of farmers. The present position is that in fact there is only one organised group of farmers represented on the NAC of their own volition. The General Council of Committees of Agriculture were represented; they decided to withdraw but the Minister decided to keep those two people on, as he is entitled to do. The Best Growers Association are there against their will and we have a position in which only the Irish Creamery Milk Suppliers Association are there and have decided to be there.

After that, there is a selected group of people and despite what the Minister says about how well they are working, I do not believe they are working well or that they will work well until the Minister has succeeded in getting the majority of the farmers of Ireland represented on the Council. He has said that he decided originally to select six of the people on this body. He said that there are many sectors, many interests in the farming industry which are not represented by organised groups and that he had to retain the right to put on the Council a number of people he himself could regard as being able to represent those various important sectors.

That is a reasonable and a plausible statement but it has not been borne out by what has happened. The people selected by the Minister to be put on this body cannot be said in fact to represent the various groups the Minister had in mind at that time and it is a great pity the Minister is not trying seriously to bring about a change which could lead to a position all of us want to see—a position in which there could be wholehearted co-operation, confidence and enthusiasm of the farmers of the country to put into operation a progressive long-term policy for Irish agriculture.

Again on this occasion the Minister has more or less issued a sort of loose invitation to come in to those who have stayed outside. Even the one organised group represented on the council at the moment are not satisfied. They are looking for an independent secretariat. The ICMSA are not completely satisfied with the present setup. There must be an independently-elected group to represent the farmers, with their own secretariat and their own advice. It is only in that way that we shall get the views of the practitioners contrasted with the views arrived at in the Department, with consequent fair and proper solutions worked out for the various problems that are inevitable in this as in any other industry.

If we get this body I have in mind, and which most people would like to see in existence, I do not for a moment suggest that everything will run smoothly, but the last thing I should like to see set up is a National Agricultural Council to fight the Minister or the Department of Agriculture. The Minister and the Department of Agriculture and the farmers are natural allies who should be working together in the sort of relationship I have suggested, working together to get from the industry the maximum expansion, the maximum exports and the maximum income for themselves. I hope we can arrive at that position soon but I fear greatly that we shall not arrive at it by keeping this small group in existence, a group who are more of an irritant. I hope the Minister at an early date will decide to get rid of this sham National Agricultural Council.

When I say "sham", I am not in any way belittling personally any of the members. I know some of them. They are people I have an amount of respect for, but it really should not be called a National Agricultural Council because it is not even a pale reflection of what such a council should be. It was set up by the Minister; it is his baby and he should be made to support it; and I am sorry we have not some machinery whereby the Minister could be surcharged for the spending of this money because the farmers throughout the country have revolted against this type of National Agricultural Council set up at a time when the farmers had begun to see some hope of progress. The substance of our motion on this Supplementary Estimate is that the sum be reduced by £2,600 for the various reasons I have attempted to outline.

Subhead D10 deals with the Farm Apprenticeship Scheme. The scheme has taken a very long time to get off the ground and we are pleased to see in this Supplementary Estimate some evidence of progress. The response early on was poor, perhaps because there was not enough information about the scheme. There was never enough enthusiasm generally about it. Here again we have the bones of a good scheme that should get every encouragement. The number of people applying originally was quite small; I have forgotten the exact number but I think it was in the region of 30 applicants. It is a four year apprenticeship period, and if the applicants reach the age of 21 at the end of three years, they are normally entitled to conclude and get, at that stage, a bonus of £500 from the Department of Agriculture.

The Minister did not indicate the number of people he expects to qualify this year but I think it is in the region of eight or nine. At least this gives them some sort of compensation for their efforts to become better farmers. There are many snags in this scheme which should be overcome. An applicant is required to have spent a year at an agricultural college and he is also expected to have got science and agriculture in his intermediate certificate. This is a fairly stiff requirement for a small farmer and it is also extremely stiff for the sons of farm workers. Farm workers should be encouraged to come into the scheme and they should be assisted in every way to come into it. Today there is a much greater need for specially trained farmers and specially trained farm workers than ever before. The whole movement today is towards more specialised, bigger units and consequently more people are required with specialised skills.

Perhaps another fault may be that there is no provision in the scheme for specialised training in, say, machine milking large numbers of cows, in the working of expensive machinery, or in large-scale tillage. You get these things in part on the farms that have been selected. I do not know any of the farms that have been selected, but an effort should be made to provide specialists because in certain lines of farm husbandry, it is not necessary for a farm to be big to give people a living. Pigs are an example and we will deal with pigs later in the course of the discussion. This is an example where if you have an expert in pig production, expert in the most modern techniques and experience in relation to feeding, housing and husbandry generally, you can obtain quite a decent income from a small acreage. You have the same thing in the horticultural industry. There is an opening here for small people and for providing a decent opportunity for the sons of farm workers.

If a farm worker is to be enabled to send his son to a college for a year some assistance must be provided for the family because in most cases they cannot afford the loss of earnings involved by sending the boy, even on a scholarship, to the college. The same difficulty arises with small farmers. It is a big effort for a small farmer to send the boy for a year and then when he wants the boy home to work on the farm, he goes for three or four years of his apprenticeship to another farm. Everyone knows that when a boy leaves home, even if he is paid the recognised agricultural wage, very little of it comes home to the farmer. In any event, it is a small wage. Some sort of bonus would need to be paid to small farmers who make the sacrifice of allowing their sons to become trainees or apprentices. The same goes for the son of the farm worker.

At the end of this we have the £500; that is the reward at the end. That is of considerable assistance to a farmer who is in a position to set up a son, either to bring him in, as some are prepared to do, as a partner on the holding, or make an effort to provide him with a farm with the assistance of borrowed money. This is not the complete answer and a lot of the skill and talent which is developed through the scheme will be lost unless we are able to find some way of ensuring that the majority of these apprentices get farms of their own, or perhaps get horticultural holdings, or an acreage big enough to specialise in pigs or something of that sort.

In 1960 I proposed a resolution at the Dublin County Committee of Agriculture which was passed unanimously and on which we had no comment whatever subsequently from the Department of Agriculture. The motion was:

"That this Committee of Agriculture, wishing to promote agricultural efficiency and hopeful of the contribution to this end that will accure from the successful implementation of the Farm Apprenticeship Scheme, is anxious to explore the possibility of participation in this scheme to the extent of providing one farm each year on a short term loan for one selected apprentice from County Dublin."

This resolution was forwarded to the Department of Agriculture at the time and we received no comment on it. I will say this much, that they never said we could not do it. I hope the Minister will make some comment on it. It would give added interest in each county if the committees of agriculture were participating to this extent.

I have heard comment from time to time that it is all right, that these people who are successful will be able to find money, that the Agricultural Credit Corporation will provide them with money to buy land. We all know that the corporation ceased to provide money for land some time ago, except perhaps for the purpose of consolidation. We also know that they never provided money for land for landless people. This is something which is non-existent. We know, too, that the banks will not provide money for the purchase of land unless a large proportion of the money is already available to the person seeking this accommodation. Therefore, I would be greatly afraid that much of the value of the scheme, which I believe is a good one and a necessary one, may be lost if we do not follow through and find some way of providing successful applicants with the means of getting holdings of their own.

Another aspect of this scheme which was loose—I do not know whether it has since been tightened up but I tabled a question about it some time ago—is in relation to the valuation of the various holdings. A particular holding could be disqualified on valuation. It is not the intention, I gathered from the Minister's reply to that question, to deprive any of the successful applicants of this £500. That, at least, we are glad to know. I hope that the scheme will be a success and that the Department will continue to take an interest in it. I hope that the further steps necessary will be taken to ensure its success.

The next is subhead K.3—Payments to the Agricultural Credit Corporation in respect of Loans—and, in relation to that, the Minister outlined a couple of schemes on which there were losses. These losses were sustained on the loans provided in 1966 for the purchase of cows at very low interest rates and there was also a sum of £1,000 to meet losses inevitable in any sort of lending process of this kind. Everything possible should be done to ensure that the Agricultural Credit Corporation are at all times in a position to meet the applications that come before them. On the whole, they are doing a good job and my experience is that every application that comes before them is reasonably considered and fairly well followed through to ensure that the money lent is used to increase production and reduce costs. It is very important that this should be tied to a planned programme of production in conjunction with the advisory services. The Agricultural Credit Corporation employ their own advisers; these advisers work in co-operation with the advisers in the Department of Agriculture and, because of that, I believe there is far less money wasted. On the whole, the Corporation are working well. It is a pity, though, that there is not more advisory follow-through. It is quite right, of course, that every applicant who comes before the Corporation should not get a loan because, in some cases, that would really be only assisting farmers to get still deeper into trouble. It would be quite wrong to do that.

The next matter is the Land Project. The work of drainage is continuing in a fairly satisfactory manner. There is still an immense amount of work to be done and it is only right that the work should be kept going and, if possible, accelerated. It is extraordinary that, after all the work that has been done over the years under this scheme, there should still be so much land needing drainage, in particular, and fertilisation. If we are ever to reach the stage at which we will get the most out of the land, we must keep on with drainage. It is a pity, I think, that we have not got a special drainage board co-ordinating all drainage all over the country to ensure proper outlets in various areas. Drainage done on quite a few farms does not pay the dividend it should because the outlet is not right and the benefit of drainage, therefore, has been nullified. Another problem is the absence of compulsion to make certain farmers give an outlet and do their own drainage. Some form of compensation to encourage farmers to provide such outlets might solve the problem for those farmers who are anxious to do drainage and cannot do it because of the absence of a proper outlet as a result of the reluctance, perhaps, of a neighbour or his inability to do drainage on his own lands for one reason or another. There is need for a vigorous effort to ensure that anybody who wants to drain his land will be able to do it.

The next subhead deals with the lime and fertiliser subsidy. It is encouraging to learn that during the past year there has been an increase in the use of lime and fertilisers. There is no more effective way of increasing production than by the more extensive use of lime and fertilisers. It is a fact that about 50 per cent of the land gets no nitrogen. This is deplorable. A couple of months back, we had an announcement of an import duty of £3 10s a ton on imported nitrogen. This was, apparently, necessary to protect the interests of home production. We all want to provide employment at home and, as far as possible, employment should be provided at home, but protection should not operate to increase the price of nitrogen to the farmer. If there has to be an import duty, then there should be a subsidy paid by the Department to meet this extra cost. Potash has gone up by 57/6d a ton. We have not been told whether this increased price will be met by a subsidy. There was an announcement a couple of days ago of a 7½ per cent increase in fertiliser prices generally. Who will pay this increase? Is it the farmer? If the farmer has to pay more for his raw material, then the advance made in the past year in the increased use of fertilisers will be nullified. That would be a great pity. If we want to expand production, more and more fertiliser will have to be applied to the land. The Government have, I think, an obligation to see that fertilisers are kept at the lowest possible price. The Minister so far has not indicated how these increased costs will be met. Perhaps he will deal with it when he comes to reply.

With regard to the prevention of diseases in livestock, no matter what one may think, a great deal of loss is taking place because of fluke and stomach worms in livestock, through abortion, and through cows failing to come in calf, for one reason or another. I think these things are not followed up as well as they should be. There is not sufficient pressure on farmers to do the necessary dosing for fluke and various other infestations. There is not enough specialist advice in relation to cows not going in calf. This is the cause of immense loss and there should be more veterinary activity in this field. I thought the Minister might tell us a bit more about how the brucellosis scheme is going and how far he hopes it to move in the future.

It is disappointing to hear that our estimates of the bovine tuberculosis eradication scheme are always wrong. We were wrong this year and last year. We felt we would not have to provide so much money and that more progress had been made in this field. I would like to hear from the Minister if in fact we are getting further outbreaks. Are we getting breakdowns here, there and everywhere in the country? If we are, is there any way this can be overcome? Is there still a fairly strong nucleus of cattle with TB? Can we always expect that this sort of breakdown will occur in spite of all our efforts at final eradication? How much of this cost is due to the periodical testing that must be done by the Department? We should have a bit more information about this scheme generally, which no doubt was successfully carried out. It would be a pity if the dregs of the disease still left in the country were the cause of further outbreaks through anybody's carelessness or neglect. It is something that should be looked at seriously by the Minister to see what way it can be overcome.

That brings me to subhead K. 19, Payments to the Pigs and Bacon Commission. Things are anything but happy in the pigs and bacon industry. The Minister admits that numbers are down but says they are not alarmingly down, that there is this sort of cyclic trend all over the world, that pigs are up one year and down the next. That is not sufficient explanation for the present position. The whole industry is not organised at all and there has never been a serious attempt to organise it.

My personal belief is that pigs can be made to pay but there must be a proper and intelligent approach to the problem. There is far too much in this country of the fellow who has one or two sows, who can get in and out like that. He is in no way committed. He just decides: "The price of bonhams is good. I will get into a sow or two." He does so. The price of pigs comes down a bit and he says: "To blazes, I will get out." It makes no great difference to his income. He has no great commitment to pig production. As long as we have this type of intermittent pig producer, we will have no stability in the industry. The sooner he is put out of business the better for the industry as a whole. Of course, what we should be doing is not really putting him out of business but bringing him into the business on a scale worthwhile. Anything less than ten sows is not really a unit worth considering. If you can get that sort of man up to a ten or 12 sow unit, he is going to make money if he works intelligently, uses balanced feed and uses it cautiously, and if the feed is organised as it should be. I know most of the small producers are buying their feed in retail shops a few cwts. at a time. It is costing them anything from 10/- to £1 more per cwt. than the pig producer who is organised and can buy in a big way, buy at the right time and perhaps store.

There has been no serious attempt to organise pig production. Until we get to a stage where we have the Department, the curers, the producers, the Agricultural Institute, the Pigs and Bacon Commission working in co-operation to get the right results, we will never overcome this. You will have ups and downs. You will have factories closing, as they are at present, every second week of the year. We are told we have excess capacity. We all know that is true. But we should have arrived at the time where we have a target in pig production and are able to say: "We need this capacity" and work up to that.

The present position is most unsatisfactory. There is no serious attempt to establish a proper relationship between the price a farmer gets for his pigs and the price he must pay for his feed. This is the only way to stabilise it—get the unit up to the right size and advice him on cheap but proper pig housing. There is far too much expensive pig housing in the country. We must at least be in a position to say: "You can produce a pig house of this size for this money. We will eliminate ground draughts and give you the essentials. It is not necessary to spend a fortune." When we have a farmer willing and prepared to co-operate and to act on the specialised advice he gets, he should be enabled to get the necessary money to put his housing in order and arrange his pig feed.

If all these steps are taken, you will not have the chaos that exists in the industry at present. There is a big row going on about whey and lactose. I thought the Minister might tell us how it is going. If a lactose factory is set up and the whey disappears as a by-product for pig feed, you are going to have far fewer pigs in the country. A number of large units are producing a large percentage of the pigs produced in the country at present. They are using whey and using it economically. On the other hand, you cannot expect the dairy farmers to take a lesser price for their milk because this outlet does not exist. There must be a serious effort in those areas particularly to ensure that this by-product is fully utilised for pig production. It is time this was fairly well settled.

We had this accredited herd scheme, a very good scheme. We do not hear anything about it now. We do not know to what extent it is being encouraged. If we are to get this grading and to keep subsidies on the export of pigs at a minimum, we must have top quality. This thing should be encouraged more. A would-be pig producer, a man going to go into this at the right level and in the right way, should be fully informed as to where he will get pigs of top quality. In pig production, as in most other industries, unless you have the essentials right, you are going to lose money, not make it, and you are going to harm not only yourself but the country. These are some of the problems I see in the pigs and bacon industry. They are problems requiring the urgent attention of the Minister.

The next one is Subhead K.20. There is nothing really much to be said on it. It is to meet losses on the sale of unmillable wheat for which farmers are supposed to have got milling prices. I see that this figure is to be fully recouped. There is an appropriation-in-aid so that there is no loss incurred here for the Department.

I said, earlier this year, that I believe an increase in the price of wheat is justified. I think it is justified mainly on the grounds of increased cost of production and devaluation. If it was fair to give a certain price for wheat last year, then, in the new circumstances, the price of wheat should be increased to that extent. It is disappointing, I am sure, to farmers who are producing wheat that there has been no increase in prices. The acreage under wheat went up significantly last year but I think we could afford to have it increased still further.

Subhead K.21 refers to the beef, mutton and lamb subsidy. The Minister says that any farmer who wants this subsidy paid back directly to him can do so. I do not know whether the details of this scheme were published but I certainly have not got them. I have heard a good deal of criticism about the proposed scheme whereby the producer would have to wait for a considerable time for the balance of his money if he sent his cattle to the factory. I am not in a position, unfortunately, to discuss the details of this scheme because, as I say, I have not got them, but I know that I have heard a good deal of criticism about the Minister's proposals in relation to it to the effect that it is not a satisfactory scheme. What is wrong with it I am not able to say because I do not know sufficient about it.

The Minister has spoken about the enormous increase in the export of carcase beef, both to the British market and to the American market. That is something which I think we are all very glad has happened. The one thing that is obvious is that the estimate of the then Minister for Agriculture who was negotiating the Free Trade Area Agreement with Great Britain was completely wrong. It was said in this House at that time that we got almost everything we sought for agriculture in this Agreement. As we know, we got 25,000 tons of beef agreed as our quota. We know that, from July to December, in the first year of operation we had more than 625,000 tons quota export and we know that the figure has enormously been increased in the present year.

As I say, while we have been very wrong in our estimates in making this Agreement, we all welcome the exports which have taken place. We welcome the fact that prices have been high. I think this is nothing the Minister should blow about. I do not think he has taken any step that anybody can see that has brought this about. If he has, I should like to hear from him what it was. I think it is due largely to the unfortunate outbreak of foot and mouth disease in England, no matter what the Minister says. If there are any other circumstances of which he is aware or if he can tell us what he or the Department or anybody else in this country has done to improve the situation, I am certainly not aware of them.

The Minister speaks about the forecasts that were made and the wailing that was done about future prices. I heard the Minister speak at the General Council of Committees of Agriculture. He said he was sorry to say he saw no great prospect of improvement—this was speaking for last year. He was using the knowledge he had at that particular time. He saw no circumstances of change in Europe. He did not see that we would get any cattle into Europe. He was right: we did not. However, nobody has given any reason, other than the outbreak of foot and mouth disease in England, why prices should be better in Britain last year than they were the year before that.

Britain has not been allowed to export any cattle to EEC; neither have we. Still, our prices are higher. I should like to hear somebody explain it because it has never been explained to my satisfaction. These were the reasons given. Britain was exporting about 250,000 cattle to Europe. We were doing the same. That was shut out overnight. There has been no change in that situation while the price of cattle has gone up significantly during the past year in Britain. If that is not due to foot and mouth disease and to the fact that imports from the Argentine have been cut down or eliminated altogether, I do not know what the reason for it was. I do not think the Minister can claim he has taken any extraordinary measures to improve the situation.

We have been talking for years about setting up a proper meat and cattle marketing organisation here. We are still talking about it. We are talking now about a promotion board. We are told we shall have the details about this promotion board soon. I have always felt we should have such a body promoting the sale of live cattle but certainly that body should be marketing beef. The Minister may have more information in that regard than I have. He certainly has not done anything that I can see to give us the improved position in cattle prices he referred to.

Apparently the Minister is quite satisfied and very pleased with the position in regard to sheep. I think he should not be happy about the sheep position. Prices have been reasonably good but there is nothing exceptionally good about them—and the price of wool has dropped to half. We are waiting now, for longer than I care to think, for the Minister to bring in a Wool Bill to improve the marketing of wool but nothing has happened. Farmers have had to take half price, and less than half price, for wool during the past year—and sheep numbers are down and still falling. That is not a position to be happy about. It is certainly not a position I am happy about. I do not know why the Minister feels so happy about the whole situation.

The Minister makes reference to the mountain sheep subsidy scheme. He says satisfactory progress has been made during the past year. I hear a great deal of criticism of this scheme. I suppose no scheme will ever be brought into existence that will not be criticised. I went to Dingle for a week's holiday last year. I thought I was getting away from people who would know me but I was set upon immediately I got into Dingle about the scheme. First of all, it was paid in the Dublin region, I was told, that week and they could not get it for three weeks because fairs did not happen to work in to suit it, and many of them said that they had to bring their lambs long distances—up to 30 miles in some cases—in order to get 10/-. With transport costs and everything else, the feeling was that the game was not worth the candle and that there should be better organisation of inspections and more convenient inspection points where these people could bring their sheep for inspection. I do not know to what extent this can be met but obviously some effort has been made to improve the situation, and I hope that in the coming year further efforts will be made to bring the inspections nearer to where sheep are normally kept.

The grants for the glasshouse industry are very worthwhile. This is the only way to attack the horticultural industry as far as production under glass is concerned. It is well recognised in this as in many other branches of agriculture that one must be in it fairly big to survive and the only way many people would be enabled to get into it in a big way is by decent and encouraging grants of this size and sort. I have seen some of the glasshouses that have gone up as a result of this grant and I can say that they are making excellent progress and that they are able to get people with the right skill whole-time to look after these units because they are large enough to justify that. This is the only way we can ever hope to compete in the future.

With regard to the milk cooler scheme, the Minister, I think, expressed a little bit of disappointment that the response to this was not as good as he expected. The Minister knows from discussions which have taken place here at Question Time during the year and probably from his contacts throughout the country generally that this is due to the fact that water is just not available in many of the places where farmers would be extremely anxious to avail themselves of these coolers in order to qualify for the quality milk bonus. I think that more than anything else, this is due to the fact that there has been a general slowing down in the regional water supply schemes, in the payment of grants and in dealing with applications for water supplies generally. The Minister could have a word with his colleague in Local Government in this regard and they could try to work together to meet the needs of milk producers who are only too anxious to avail of these grants.

With regard to foot and mouth disease, I, like the Minister, would like to acknowledge our indebtedness to the people who made such efforts to co-operate in keeping this dreaded disease out of the country. Many people made very big sacrifices in order to keep it out. I have never seen before a greater appreciation, even on the part of city people, of what this would mean and the losses that we would be involved in if the disease hit this country. A tribute should be paid to the people in our veterinary department here, and indeed to the administrative people as well, for the organisation they have set up and for the successful outcome of their efforts.

The Minister said that at the moment there is a detailed investigation being made in England into the cause of the most recent outbreak and that we would be looking forward with interest to the result of this investigation but that it was felt at the moment that it was probably due to imported meat supplies. As well as that, I know that at the next session of the Council of Europe, this will be on the agenda for discussion. It is being put on the agenda by Britain. We should express a view at that meeting and we should certainly put our serious concern before the Council of Europe. Unless it can be shown that the origin of this recent outbreak was in Europe, there is not a great deal of point in discussing it at the Council of Europe, except that their policy, in my view, in many countries is not such as will eliminate foot and mouth disease. It is a policy that will have it endemic all over Europe. It is a sort of partial slaughter and partial vaccination policy and I feel that this is a very unsatisfactory position and a position which we should oppose. We should take the stand that the only policy in relation to foot and mouth that has paid dividends over the years is a slaughter policy and obviously greater precautions will have to be taken in the importation of beef in one form or another from countries that have foot and mouth disease always with them.

That brings me to the end of the various subheads but speaking generally about money being provided for agriculture, I hold that due to the fact that there is no progressive long-term agricultural policy and no properly planned investment programme, much of the money being provided is playing the role of social assistance and is not in fact having the effect of increasing production and reducing costs, which I feel are the essential things.

I do not want to interrupt the Deputy but a debate on general policy is not involved in a Supplementary Estimate. The Deputy is confined to the subheads.

We are being asked here for additional money for agriculture and we are being asked for it over a very broad field. My contention is that some of this money perhaps might not be necessary if we had better organisation of our expenditure. We are being asked for more money and we have evidence that output has not increased in recent years. We have this position of stagnation which proves that we are not properly organised for the use of the money that is going into agriculture and that we are not getting an economic return for it.

That would be appropriate to a general debate on agriculture, but on a Supplementary Estimate, the debate is confined to the subheads.

Probably nobody has ever stuck as closely to the subheads in a Supplementary Estimate as I have done. I apologise if I am contravening the rules.

What the Chair is concerned with is that the debate should be kept to the subheads of the Supplementary Estimate.

I was only indicating that despite the fact that increased amounts of money are being provided every year our estimates are wrong and we have to come back looking for supplementary sums. We have a position that in the past ten years we have had an increase in output of only 2½ per cent and this, in my view, represents a position of stagnation in agriculture that no Minister can be proud of.

This Estimate of almost £10 million is a very big one, coming towards the end of the financial year. Of course when one remembers that the whole Irish economy is based on agriculture, despite what many people would say to the contrary, it is not surprising that large sums of money are required to keep things going at the present time. Perhaps the Minister would let me know whether or not there is a substantial saving on the calved heifer subsidy this year. I imagine from my own observations, and from information I have got throughout the country, that the amount spent this year will be very much less than was provided in the original Estimate.

With regard to the foot and mouth disease, comments have been made in this House and elsewhere at various stages regarding the steps taken by the Government to ensure that the disease was kept out of this country. Let me say quite categorically that we in the Labour Party feel that the Government were fully justified in taking the steps they took, and if it was necessary to go further, we have always stated that the full support of the Labour Party would be given. It is scandalous to find people trying to get loopholes through the very necessary precautions and those who have deliberately broken the regulations have only themselves to thank for what happened to them. Any of them who attempted to escape, and have so far escaped being dealt with, should be dealt with. Unfortunately, we cannot say that this will be the end of the road as far as foot and mouth disease is concerned. Apart from agriculture, very grave hardships were imposed on a number of people indirectly or on people who were not connected in any way with the agricultural industry, but all of them accepted the position.

The gardaí who had the unpleasant duty of policing the Border roads in the coldest part of the winter deserve the highest praise for the way in which they did their jobs and also the various officials, both high and low of the Department of Agriculture who saw to it that the regulations were carried out and tried to the best of their ability to see they were carried out also deserve our praise. We are very grateful to them. While people spoke about the fact that there was a comparatively looser set of arrangements and restrictions in Great Britain in regard to the disease, even though the disease was there, those people seemed not to be aware of the fact that while agriculture forms a very small proportion of the British economy, it is the keynote of the Irish economy and if the disease had come in here, the cost to the country would be something which we would be paying for and moaning about for the rest of our lives.

I understand from the Minister's speech this morning the cost here was £157,000, a comparatively small sum when one learns that Britain has to date, I understand, paid £158 million in compensation. That does not represent anything like the loss which has been suffered by the farming community in Britain as a result of the disease. I think also that what Deputy Clinton said with regard to making representations to attempt to have tighter controls internationally on the importation of meat carcases is correct. I understand that already representations have been made in Britain on this and from a television programme which I watched for some time last night, it appears that Britain is determined that they are not going to allow the Argentine to send in the type of meat which they feel certain caused the outbreak last year. We all know that there are countries where foot and mouth disease is endemic but the fact that an outbreak such as the one which has just ended in Britain, we hope, was caused not alone by the carelessness of the people who exported it but by the carelessness of the people who subsequently handled it in Britain is something which should not be lost sight of. I hope Britain will stand firm on the line which they have now taken not to allow Argentinian meat into Britain.

Perhaps we are a bit selfish about this because it means that the market for this year will be very greatly increased, and without being too critical, I think the fact that the outbreak occurred in Britain is the only reason we were able to bring off the increased number of cattle sales last year. This is a matter we should face up to and there is no use codding ourselves and anybody else about it. The fact is that those cattle were sold but to try to make out that it was due to some special guardian angel this country had sent over to Britain seeking out markets is a little bit of a cod. We must all face up to it that the outbreak, while we regret it, did good to us. It is an ill-wind which blows nobody any good. I hope that that ill-wind will not blow back on us.

The milk problem is one which must cause great concern to the Government because the amount of subsidy required to sell milk and milk products has become a colossal burden. Milk is the main basis on which Irish agriculture is built. I live in a constituency where the milk stand has become a very common sight and where some years ago a very small quantity of milk was produced but where now practically every farmer depends on his milk cheque. I wonder if something cannot be done to try to sell milk and milk products at home. I am often surprised that the campaign which seems to be run so successfully in Britain, the pint campaign, does not seem to have caught on here. No attempt seems to have been made to encourage Irish people to drink more milk. I know there are other things which we have been encouraged to drink and which did not need any encouragement.

I also know that in France some years ago a very foolish politician started a milk-drinking campaign. As he was in a wine growing constituency, he did not remain very long. At the next general election he moved on. I understand that somebody here started a "drink light beer" campaign and he survived an awful lot longer than the fellow in France. It seems to me an extraordinary thing that some effort has not been made to encourage people to drink milk. If one speaks to housewives, it is not unusual to find them complaining about the milk bill, and talking about the fact that they use six or seven pints of milk per day, although there may be six or seven, or maybe more, members in that family and they never seem to realise that a couple of glasses of whiskey which they may also pay for during the week could in fact pay for all the milk. I would suggest that the milk would be a far better beverage.

Reference was made to the EEC and to milk and milk products and it is only right to draw attention to the fact that the EEC are at present overproducing milk and milk products by two per cent. I know somebody may come back with an answer that of course there is a guaranteed price, and if we produce and go into the EEC, we will get the guaranteed price. There is still the situation that the EEC must continue to subsidise something which is being over-produced and they must of necessity reduce the subsidy. This could put Ireland in a rather peculiar position in view of our dependency on milk and milk products if we are to become full members of the EEC.

I do not know whether there is any other outlet for milk products than the traditional ones, but I feel the Government could very well spend a substantial sum of money on research for the purpose of trying to find some way of using dairy products other than the way which requires a substantial subsidy to sell abroad. I know it is necessary for the purpose of keeping our balance of payments right to sell as much as we can abroad but it does seem a little odd that so far the only thing we have succeeded in selling, and we are improving the sale of it, is something on which we are losing very large sums of money. I am not an expert in this field but I am sure there are people who could suggest ways in which the money which is being paid by way of subsidy for milk and milk products could be used to produce something which would not require a very substantial subsidy and for which there would be a much greater demand.

Incidentally, I note that the Minister referred to the fact that he introduced grants last year to help milk producers to install milk coolers which would be a further help in this direction. I do not know whether the Minister is aware that quite a number of farmers are unable to have milk coolers because they have not ESB current. I have had a number of discussions with the Minister about this when I tried to get it for farmers who are within three or four miles of a town, and attempted to get the Minister to extend the ESB current. The position was that they could not get milk coolers and the Minister suggested that they could use gas coolers. In fact, a man was sent to me who was to give me in detail how this could be done but it meant that it could be done only with the use of an engine and it seemed so complicated that the people with whom I discussed it said they would rather continue as they were. I received one of the very long and courteous letters the Minister for Transport and Power sends out explaining things like this in detail. It did not convince me or the farmers who are anxious to get current for the purposes of installing milk coolers.

With regard to the export of beef, I asked the Minister on 13th February, 1968, column 886, Question No. 30 of the Official Report, if he would give me the average subsidy per beef carcase for 1967, the highest amount and the lowest amount. I should have understood it myself but I thought he would have some details of carcase beef per 1b. Although this was published in the Official Debates, many people who have been talking about beef prices in this country did not seem to understand the significance of it. I raised the question because it was brought to my notice by somebody who was in industry that one factory alone claimed to have got £40 to £50 per carcase subsidy from Britain for a period last year and this subsidy was going into the profits of the factory, not into the pockets of the producer.

I put this question down at the request of the person about whom I am talking and I got this reply: In the month of January, the average rate of subsidy per 1b. was almost 5d; it was 4.7849d in January, 1967; in February, 5.5153d; in March, 5.5289d; in April, 5.8058d; in May, 5.0895d; in June, 6.557d; in July, 9.5035d; in August, 8.861d; in September, 7.1712d; in October, 7.4824d; in November 7.9932d; and in December .8134d. I did a little ready reckoning and this represented a very substantial sum of money which I understand was paid to the factories who held on to that money and did not pass it on to the producer. I was one of those who spoke and voted against the British Free Trade Agreement. This was one of the points in the agreement which seemed to gain something for us but I think it is a bit of a cod that when it was included the benefits that were represented were collared by a group of people who were already doing very well.

I wonder would the Minister go a little further than he went in his opening speech when he referred to the fact that:

Deputies are aware I have also made arrangements under which any producer can have the beef export subsidy paid to him direct or by my Department.

Perhaps the Minister might go into detail and say how much can be paid direct to the producer. As far as I know, very few of the producers are aware of any such arrangement. I live in a county which consists of a substantial number of farmers and I believe they are entitled to the benefits of their labours. I think it is a bit of a cod if people get only half as much for the beef that is sold and which they rear themselves as the factory gets by way of subsidy. It seems to be out of the way and I ask the Minister to give us some details so that we can see if these people can get the subsidy that may be coming their way.

I am glad to see from the Minister's statement that there has been a satisfactory increase in exports of boneless manufacturing beef to the US. The Minister said the value of the amount had increased to £12 million compared with £6 million in 1966. I wonder has there been any success in attempts to win back the American Army market, mainly for mutton, which was held by this country some years ago. Had it not been for some difficulties about the EEC that market would not have been lost to us. There must be some way of getting it back and I should like the Minister to say what efforts have been made and with what prospect of success.

On the question of the EEC, we are promised a wonderful market. Surely the fact is that at present there is a 9 per cent shortfall in the EEC for beef which the EEC countries claim they can make up in 18 months in Southern Italy. If that is so, we face the same position with regard to beef so long as the guaranteed price is there. If they maintain the guaranteed price at the present level, and so long as the beef they are looking for is of the same quality as what we are producing, as soon as they find it will pay them better to reduce the price, we will find ourselves with a cheaply-priced product on our hands. Beef exports represent the main single item in our export trade and the situation I have just referred to could have a terrible effect on our economy.

The Minister has been holding forth on pig production. He said the market is there and he pointed out something rather peculiar, that when the strike was on in the bacon factories, he gave a subsidy and continued to give the subsidy afterwards. My complaint is that he mentioned a very big figure. He said that 3,600 live pigs qualified at a total cost of £18,000. The dispute, which lasted some time, could have been settled in a matter of weeks at a cost very much less than £18,000. I am beginning to wonder whether this sort of thing is the answer to disputes of that kind. It is a bad thing to see the taxpayer paying for substantial subsidies to wealthy employers while they allow people to stay on strike instead of making an offer within a period of weeks.

Whether it is possible to make pigs pay is a problem which has been disturbing the minds of great and small in this country during many years. I had an interesting discussion on this problem a few week ago with an old gentleman and because of what he said—he knew what he was talking about—I will mention it here. He said that long ago small farmers and cottiers were able to rear pigs, to feed them, though it took a longer period to do so, and succeeded in fattening them and getting them ready on the produce of the farms and the cottiers' gardens. At the present time it is possible to bring in the pigs much more quickly, but in order to do so, the profit which should accrue to the producer is being spent on all types of balanced rations and what have you. The result now is that it is so costly to feed the pigs that those small people have got out of production.

I should like the Minister in his reply to comment on that. The man I spoke to knew a lot about the business because he had been engaged in it many years as a medium-sized farmer. He said it was still possible to produce pigs on the food produced on small farms and cottage gardens which would go to waste in normal times. He said small farmers and cottiers should be encouraged to produce pigs not under a system of trying to beat the neighbours by having the pigs out a couple of days earlier but by fattening them in whatever time it took to do so. He said this would result in a positive improvement in the number of pigs produced. He also said it appeared as if the Department of Agriculture were anxious to have the pigs better housed than the farmers because in many cases the regulations governing the building of pigsties resulted in the sties being better than the houses or cottages in which the producers lived. This may be an exaggeration but I suggest there is a grain of truth in it.

We have reached the stage when we are pricing ourselves out of the bacon market by attempting to produce pigs in those modern sties, costing a lot of money, and on rations which Deputy Clinton said were beyond the means of the small farmer who could buy only in small quantities and therefore at top prices, when the big man could buy by the ton more cheaply. I am passing that on to the Minister for what it is worth and I hope he will comment on it.

Deputy Clinton was critical of the mountain lamb subsidy scheme. I think it was a good idea, though there were numerous difficulties which all of us anticipated. However, improvement has been made in the system of checking and I believe the improved situation will result in an increase in the sheep population. I was rather surprised to find that after Galway the biggest sheep-producing county is Meath. I had thought it would be some mountain area where a lot of sheep can be reared fairly cheaply.

The Bovine TB Scheme has been referred to and it has been noted that though it should be coming to an end, it is still causing a certain amount of trouble. I should like to know is it true that a certain strain of bovine tuberculosis has survived and that TB animals are appearing in herds which previously had been declared clear. I found one thing peculiar about the scheme. Two brothers lived together on a sizable portion of land and they were refused blue cards on the ground that their stock was intermingled. Surely the thing to do was to have both men's cattle examined? All it meant was putting the stock into two separate fields to have the job done. A man had a cow grazing with one farmer and a mile away he had another cow with another farmer. The two herds were referred to as intermingled, although there was only one cow involved. A solution was given by one gentleman who said the proper thing to do was to put two farmers' herds, together, with the two cows, and have them examined. It seems to me to be a senseless sort of situation.

Mention is also made of the warble fly. We know how we used to laugh at the warble fly inspectors. They were the first political appointees. They were regarded as being of a low grade but there were always people willing to pull the political strings to get the job but those days have changed now. It appears from the Minister's speech that if a man finds he has stock with warble fly and reports it, he can have the dressing done for nothing, but if he does not report it, he is charged 5/-. That appears to be charging him 5/-for a very serious offence. The same situation obtained with sheep dipping. It seems to me that anybody who, through sheer neglect, allows a continuance of a disease which could be wiped out so easily, and it appears to be almost wiped out, is guilty of a serious offence. I suggest that stronger measures should be taken against those who deliberately neglect to do what they should do in this case.

Over the years we have had comments about wheat and I notice that the Minister has put down very definitely, and I am glad of it, the fact that the increased cost, because of the fact that 27,000 tons of potentially millable wheat had to be sold as animal food, did not fall on the Exchequer but was put on the import of foreign wheat and was therefore partly responsible for an increase in bread prices. We should get that done still and we should know where we stand. The Minister said that 90 per cent of the crop was taken into the mills and the full millable price paid for it. That left ten per cent, which is still a pretty high amount. Some 27,000 tons out of 168,000 tons, which run to 17 per cent or 18 per cent, also had to be disposed of. That was last year, when a relatively small amount of wheat was grown.

I do not know whether the Minister is aware that in the areas in which I travel fairly extensively there seems to be a rush to put in wheat all over the place, and if I am not wrong in my guess, we are going to have a tremendous amount of wheat going to the mills in the fall of the year. We all know that when a relatively small amount of wheat goes in, it is reasonably easy to get it through, but when there is a large amount, it is amazing how much of it is unmillable. That is one of the hazards. I notice that the Minister referred to the weather last year. I do not know whether he was claiming that the Government were responsible for the good weather but it was a great thing that the weather was clement and I would not blame him for taking credit. I do not know whether the Government will be able to invoke the oracle for a good harvest this year, but if there is a good harvest, there will be a lot of millable wheat, and if not, there may be a very large amount which is unmillable. Whether that is going to be paid for by taking it in first and then turning it back and putting it on to the price of imports and subsequently on the price of bread, I do not know but it appears as if there will be a big increase in the amount of wheat sown.

The Minister told us that there has been a considerable reduction in the time taken to deal with applications under the Land Project and that the number of grants falling for payment has increased substantially. I do not know whether it is easy to please the Minister or not but I know that in Meath up to a few months ago, if somebody applied to have inspection work carried out, he received a reply saying that there was a delay of 12 months before inspection work was done. Anyone who lives in the country knows that the time a farmer decides to do Land Project work, if his land requires drainage, is when it is flooded, and then he dashes off to have it inspected right away so that the work can be carried out as quickly as possible. However, he will be told that there is a 12 months delay. Whether the Minister has whittled this down ten months or 11 months, I do not know, but I should like to hear from him because it appears to me that the 12 months was still in operation up to recently.

There is also the question of the man who does urgent work which it can be plainly seen has been done and it is unfair that that man will not receive any payment for that work. I asked the Minister a question about this last year and he assured me that where it could be proven that the work was urgent and had been done properly, payments would be made. I am not aware that that promise has been carried out and an effort should be made to have this type of thing dealt with.

The Minister also referred to the scheme for grants for glasshouse nurseries which came into operation in March, 1967, and said that there were quite a number of applicants. I raised the point before, and I am now raising it again, that we are not utilising a certain type of heat which is available and which should be as nearly free as possible, that is, the steam from ESB power stations. There is steam going out onto the neighbouring boglands which should be ideal for heating glasshouses in which fruit and vegetables are grown. In Germany, they have utilised this sort of heat and they are able to produce fruit and vegetables very cheaply, but here it has not been done. On one occasion a man from the Agricultural Association of Ireland told me that they would be against that sort of thing because it would react against farmers and market gardeners in other parts who were producing early vegetables and fruit, and particularly tomatoes, and might cause a glut. We all know the difficulty there is in getting tomatoes in the early part of the year and the fancy prices that must be paid for them. I do not think that the producers get anything like that price.

Another point is that strawberries from the Channel Islands will also be flown in at fancy prices. They could be produced here. Nobody seems to be able to put up the money to erect the necessary type of glasshouse. Surely the State could persuade Bord na Móna to invest some of their money in promoting this type of thing? That might provide the necessary boost. We are missing out badly because we are not producing the amount of fruit and vegetables which could be produced with a little effort and for which there should be a ready market.

Deputy Clinton stole some of my thunder in his reference to the Farm Apprenticeship Scheme and therefore I will be brief in dealing with this matter. My organisation, the Federation of Rural Workers, is one of the bodies on this Board and we went on to it on the understanding that not only would farmers' sons be trained but also the sons of farm workers. I am sorry to say that apparently the Board have no intention of letting the sons of farm workers get any such training. With modern trends in farming, agricultural workers have now got to be experts in their field and there must be, therefore, training to equip those employed in agriculture on a far larger scale than there is even in industry. Some of the technical schools are doing a certain amount of work in that direction. Some are training young people how to operate and do running repairs on machines. It is a little odd, to say the least of it, that farm workers are unable in the year 1968 to get any kind of technical training. Nobody seems to give two damns about it. Nobody seems to think it is important. I think it is important.

Deputy Clinton talked about training these potential workers to use modern milking machines. Apparently that is not being done. All apprentices should be taught how to use farm machinery to qualify them for whatever offers afterwards. No matter what extra subsidy is required, both the farmer's son and the farm worker's son should be properly trained as apprentices. It is no use saying that this training is open for them if they cannot provide the money necessary to get the kind of education required before such training. If that is the position, then this scheme applies only to those who have money. That was not our intention when we went into the scheme and, unless it is revised, we shall have to have second thoughts about it.

As far as the £500 award paid to a person who has completed apprenticeship goes, at the moment in my constituency that would buy about three acres of good land if such land were available. Possibly some liaison is required here with the Land Commission. Perhaps that body could get round this problem. If an apprentice were guaranteed a certain portion of land on the completion of his apprenticeship, far more people would be attracted into the scheme than they are by the prospect of a lump sum of £500 because £500 does not buy very much at the present time.

I said on a former occasion that the only way to get a loan from the Agricultural Credit Corporation was by proving one did not need it. That was too harsh. They are very strict, but they are doing a reasonably good job. We cannot blame them for being careful. The organisation of which I am secretary has invested substantial sums collected from people in the rural areas in the Agricultural Credit Corporation on the basis that by doing so, they are helping out those in the rural areas. That is a good policy. The Government reduced substantially the amount of money made available to the Corporation a few years ago and that has had an adverse effect. The Corporation tried to get money in other ways, but it must be extremely difficult for them to get all the money they think could be usefully used by the farming community.

Reference was made to the NAC. When the NIEC was set up, I asked that agriculture should be represented. I still believe agriculture is entitled to direct representation on that body. I believe the NAC was originally set up in order to give a good excuse for opting out of representation on the NIEC. Whether we like it or not, the position now is that it is ridiculous for any Government or any Minister for Agriculture to try to carry on while he is at loggerheads with a substantial portion of the farming community. I appeal to the Minister—I speak for myself only—to extend the olive branch to those with whom he is at loggerheads. He said in his opening speech—it is a little weak and that is the reason I refer to it:

While on the subject of the Council I would add that I have made it clear on more than one occasion that both the Government and I stand ready to work in close and constructive collaboration with all farming organisations for the benefit of Irish agriculture. That is still the position.

I am quite sure the Minister is as well aware as we are that putting that in his speech will not bring us one step nearer a settlement of this row, a row which has dragged on for too long and which has done irreparable damage to Irish agriculture. I do not say this to score points, but I ask the Minister now to make an effort—through a third party, if necessary; certainly through someone respected by both sides—even now, at the beginning of a new agricultural season, to settle this difference and, if that effort is successful, I am convinced the result will bestow benefits on everybody, on the Minister, and on the country, which is my main interest.

I am really filling in for Deputy M.P. Murphy who is unfortunately indisposed. I suggest an effort might be made in future to give us as close an approximation as possible of the amount likely to be required for agriculture. No matter what the excuse may be, it just is not good enough to come along in the month of March, on the eve of the Budget, saying that there has been over-expenditure to the tune of £9,646,000. A substantial change like hat takes a good deal of explaining away. I never object to money being spent on agriculture. All I ask is that the best use be made of it and the estimate likely to be required should be given at the beginning of the financial year rather than at the close of it.

Both Deputy Clinton and Deputy Tully alluded to the quarrel, as they call it, between the Minister for Agriculture and the National Farmers Association. As a farmer, and a member of the National Farmers Association, nobody is more anxious than I am to see that row, as it is called, settled. What suits farmers in one area is poison to farmers in other areas and not worth a bean to them. The farmer who grows grain is poison to the farmer who is feeding pigs because there is a constant battle over prices. If the National Farmers Association are prepared to come in on a fair basis, no one will object to that. I would like to know how Deputy Tully would feel if one organisation of workers started pinching what belonged to another organisation of workers.

Unfortunately, it is done every day of the week.

It is time it stopped. We are not going to allow it as far as farmers are concerned. The spectacle of one farmers' organisation heading in past a picket of another farmers' organisation fighting for a price for their milk was disgusting. Use has been made of the National Agricultural Council in this matter. A dog in the manger policy has been adopted by the NFA. On the invitation of the Minister, we appointed two representatives of the BGA to serve on this Council. A campaign of vengeance has been carried on against us for over 12 months. Now that we are entering a new year, I can say what are the results of that campaign on the ordinary beet-growing farmer. It was taken advantage of by the Irish Sugar Company, who stated they did not know whom to negotiate with. There were no negotiations on this year's price for beet. For 34 years, there had been an allocation of surplus pulp of 1¾ cwt. for every ton of beet delivered to the factory. That was cut—a simple thing but a mean thing—by a quarter cwt. per ton bringing it down to 1½ cwt. per ton on beet. People may say that is nothing. Here is how it works out. The price charged for ration pulp was £15 per ton. The price of the surplus pulp today is £22 10s a ton, a difference of £7 a ton and a cut of 1s 9d on the price of beet to the farmer.

Deputy Corry will appreciate that this is a Supplementary Vote and that the debate is confined to the various subheads. The matter raised by the Deputy is one for the main Estimate or for a separate motion.

I am dealing with the statement made here by Deputy Clinton.

That does not put the matter in order. Deputy Clinton may have referred to it.

He made a long speech on it. We have an increase here for fertilisers. Should that appear here or in the Estimate for Industry and Commerce, in view of the fact that in order to keep up this industry, a levy is put on the import of fertilisers here? We are meeting that this year. You can add to that 1/9d mentioned a ten per cent increase in freight charges, which amounts to a further 1/3d. You can add to that now a further increase— it is more than time they got it and I have advocated it for years—in order to provide a fair wage for agricultural workers.

That does not arise on the Supplementary Estimate. There are no subheads dealing with the matter referred to by the Deputy.

I am dealing with the amounts allowed in the subheads. I am saying above-board that if there are increased costs arising from those subheads, those subheads should be increased to meet the extra charge on the agricultural community.

The Deputy may not deal with the wages of agricultural workers.

Very well. I want to say in passing that the increase amounts exactly to that agreed between the Sugar Company and ourselves two years ago-8/9d a ton on beet in respect of which the farmers have signed contracts this year at last year's prices. The total cost of the interference of Deputy Clinton's bullock ranchers with the ordinary tillage farmers is that the beet growers have to grow beet this year at £540,000 less than they grew it last year. That is a pretty hefty bill for one farmers' organisation to cost another.

I cannot see what the objection is. As a nominee of the BGA, I served about four years on an agricultural council set up by Deputy Dillon when he was Minister for Agriculture. I did not feel myself growing horns or being turned into a goat on account of that. In fact, Deputy Dillon was a lot more sensible on the council than he is when he comes in here. He remained at the head of that council while it was in existence, until he went out of office in fact. I did not see any objection to his acting as head of that council. I certainly did not raise any objection to serving on it, nor did any of the other associations. We had a few jokers from the NFA on that council, too. They did not raise any objection to serving with Deputy Dillon as Minister for Agriculture—whatever objection they have to serving with Deputy Blaney as Minister for Agriculture. Those are the things I want to look at. It will be all right if those boys are prepared to come in and take their place and not interfere or attempt to interfere—as they are doing by bulldozing and blackguardism—with those farming organisations which are set up for one specific object. We have been set up to protect the ordinary tillage farmer of this country. The Irish Creamery Milk Suppliers Association was set up to look after the interests of the creamery milk suppliers. Let the bullock ranchers look after their bullocks and keep their noses out of our business.

I am almost in agreement with a lot of what Deputy Tully said in regard to the meat subsidy. If we wish to assist the ordinary small farmers of this country by way of subsidy and if we are to reduce, in some way, all those millions we are to spend on the milk subsidy, I suggest to the Minister that the subsidy be paid to farmers rearing calves aged from six to nine or 12 months at the outside. In that way, you pay direct subsidy to the farmer who is rearing those cattle. Millions of pounds have been spent on in-calf heifer subsidy and a larger proportion of the calves were intended for the purpose of increasing our stock. We now find that a large proportion, even in the case of the dropped calves, are sent across the Border and the Northern Ireland farmer is the gentleman who is gaining the benefit of the in-calf heifer subsidy that is paid by the Republic. It is time that that particular aspect of it were examined by the Department of Agriculture and acted upon.

Deputy Clinton found everything so much wrong. He found some things that he did not agree with but he could not find what was wrong. That was wishful thinking on his part.

I should like also, if the Minister would give a little more attention to some matters towards which no subsidy at all is paid. I refer now to the export market for processed vegetables. That market has grown to such an extent that I do not think we shall be able to cope with it. I should like the Minister to give a little more attention to that matter. I have seen it grow, over a four-year period——

Surely the Deputy is not embarking on a debate on general agriculture? He must confine himself to the various subheads.

I am suggesting that, in some cases, the subsidies could be increased. Consider the position of a farmer with an increase of 7½ per cent in the subsidy for fertiliser, on the one hand, and a freight increase of 10 per cent on the other hand. The Minister announced that there is to be no increase in the price of barley, wheat or beet.

This is not a general debate on agriculture. It is confined to the Supplementary Estimate.

Yes, and I am dealing, on this Supplementary Estimate, with the increased subsidy for fertilisers and what general effect that has on the economy of the farmer. I am suggesting that some of these subsidies should not be included in this Supplementary Estimate at all. They should not be on an agricultural Estimate such as this but on an industrial Estimate brought in by the Minister for Industry and Commerce because the fertiliser subsidy, for example, is for the protection, safety and workability of the fertiliser industry in this country. It is not there to protect the farmer. As has been pointed out here already, I could bring in nitrogen today at up to £3 a ton less than what I have to pay here for my nitrogen. Therefore, for whom is the subsidy? It is not for the farmer. It is not for agriculture. That is the difference and that is the argument I am putting up on the whole matter.

If we were dealing with the general Estimate, it would be possible to point out that there is the same thing to be noticed right through. Nobody will pretend to me that the subsidy on farm buildings is not a subsidy for industry —because I know it is. There is a big industry below at my hall-door living on it and delighted to have it. I have no objection to that, provided the subsidy is looked for in the right Department and that we shall not be told: "Oh, the farmers had to get £40 million, £20 million or £50 million to carry on" whereas, in fact, half or three-quarters of it is a subsidy on industry and helping industry in this country.

I do not wish to carry that matter further except to say that if subsidies are not placed in the Estimates for the relevant Departments then, when I shall be dealing here with this Estimate next year, I shall have a different tune.

First of all, I should like to say a few words about the provision here for a vote of £2,600, under subhead K.6, for the National Agricultural Council. I should like, at the outset, to endorse everything that has been said by my colleague, Deputy Clinton, regarding the National Agricultural Council. As at present constituted, and in view of the strained relations between the Minister for Agriculture and a substantial section of the farming community, this National Agricultural Council can achieve no good and therefore I cannot see my way to support this provision of £2,600 towards its expenses. The National Agricultural Council is not representative of the majority of the farmers, and while such a position obtains, the farmers can have no confidence in it. The Minister to a large extent, I feel, has been responsible for the manner in which this Council has been set up. Certainly he must bear responsibility for the continuing bad relations between himself and the National Farmers Association. The onus is on the Minister as the man who in the final analysis is responsible for agriculture in this country to hold out, as Deputy Tully has said, the hand of friendship to the NFA.

Certainly it will not benefit Irish agriculture if we are to have a continuation of this situation where the Minister for Agriculture in various ways has shown his vindictiveness against one major farming organisation. I sincerely hope he will look at this problem more rationally than he has done in the past, that he will spare no effort to ensure that the wishes of a large organisation, representing a substantial section of the farming community, will be listened to and that he will go out of his way to meet that organisation and try to patch up whatever differences there are.

The most important part of this Supplementary Estimate and the one in which I am most interested is the subhead referring to the subventions for the dairying industry—milk production allowances, marketing of dairy products, et cetera, subhead N.1. I am perturbed to note from the Minister's speech that he has thought it necessary to say that the total Exchequer Bill towards subsidising the dairying industry has been increasing. The Minister states:

However, it is necessary for me to say that the rate at which the total bill is mounting as a result of the growth in production and the various increases in the allowances must cause some concern in relation to the fact that so high a proportion of the resources which can be made available for agriculture is now spent on one sector.

That is in the dairying industry. He also points out that the subsidisation to the dairying industry has increased substantially in recent years.

I want to point out, and to repeat what I have said here on previous debates on Estimates for Agriculture, that the present figure of £19.2 million which represents the total State subsidy to the dairying industry is fully justified, and it is justified in the sense that the dairying industry is the most important sector of our agricultural industry. To put this subsidy in its proper perspective, we must bear in mind the contribution which the dairying industry makes to the national economy. The dairying industry is the foundation of the agricultural industry. It provides a livelihood for over 100,000 farmers and their families. It provides employment for several thousand workers in creameries and milk-processing plants and it contributes over £20 million per annum by way of exports of dairy products. Therefore the figure of £19.2 million is not by any means exorbitant or out of proportion. Any money devoted to the developing of the dairying industry repays itself, both directly and indirectly, many times over.

I feel, however, that there is a grave danger that the dairying industry might be about to enter a difficult period. There has been a substantial increase in milk production. The figure last year, as the Minister has said, shows an increase of 14 per cent. This creates many problems. It created some serious problems last year by reason of the fact that the existing capacity of the milk-processing plants was inadequate to cope with this increase in milk production. The Minister in reply to various questions I have asked in recent months has informed me that the capacity of milk-processing plants has been extended and that he hopes that with the additional capacity, the milk-processing plants will be able to absorb all the milk produced during 1968. There was an unfortunate situation last year when in certain areas the skim milk had to be returned to the farmers. In a number of other cases it was disposed of by other means, and I understand that in at least one or two cases substantial quantities of skim milk had to be poured down the drain. This is an unfortunate situation. It is a situation which must not be allowed to happen again.

It is anticipated, as far as I can gather, that there will be a further increase in milk production this year. I was disappointed that the Minister did not avail himself of the opportunity presented to him by this Supplementary Estimate to go into some detail regarding future prospects for the dairying industry, particularly the prospects of absorbing the increased production of milk. He did not make any mention of what plans Bord Bainne have to secure additional export markets for dairy products to absorb the increased production of these products. I detect here in the Minister's speech a note of warning or a note of alarm—and this was confirmed in reply to a question of mine last week regarding the prospects of the dairying industry—that there is a danger that we might be running into difficulty in the matter of disposing of our milk production.

Bord Bainne undoubtedly have been doing a good job and I have always given them credit for what they have done. I notice there is a sum of £3 million for payment to Bord Bainne.

In view of the situation which has been developing of late, that is, the substantial increase in milk production and the likely further increase in milk production during this year and in future years, I feel that the existing machinery—I am referring to milk-processing plants and the machinery for the export of dairy products—may have to be reorganised. I have given this matter some thought in recent months. It is a matter of very serious concern to the people in the constituency which I represent. There is now a very strong case for the establishment of a national milk marketing board, that is, a milk marketing board whose functions would be much broader than the functions of Bord Bainne at the present time.

I have in mind a milk marketing board which would take over the functions of Bord Bainne and the National Dairy Publicity Council and would handle all the arrangements for the disposal of the processed milk, the marketing of milk products, and which would handle the campaign towards increasing the home consumption of milk and dairy products. Certainly the situation at the moment gives no grounds for complacency. It would be a terrible tragedy if our dairy farmers, having taken the necessary steps and at very large expense to increase their dairy herds and to increase their milk output, should now be faced with the situation that there might be a possibility of all their milk not being absorbed in the existing milk-processing plants.

I am in favour of a new approach to this whole question of milk marketing and the marketing of dairy products but there is also another problem which has arisen in relation to the subsidisation of the dairy industry. It is a problem which has been talked of occasionally, but of which I now have definite evidence, that is, the growing concern, particularly in the south of Ireland, with regard to what has now come to be called the take-over of the Irish dairying industry or the Irish dairy processing industry by some interests.

Nobody objects to foreign participation in Irish industry. Foreign participation in the Irish dairying industry has undoubtedly helped in a number of cases, but as I say, the people directly concerned with the dairying industry have over the past 12 months on numerous occasions expressed their concern to me and have expressed their concern in the press about the continuing participation by foreign interests in our dairy-processing industry and that this may now have gone a stage too far.

I have seen figures recently in relation to the investment in a new milk-processing plant in the south of Ireland. I have seen according to those figures that the foreign investment in this new plant represents 22 per cent but that the foreign interests which invested 22 per cent exercise 80 per cent control in the whole organisation. This has certainly gone a bit too far and it has given grounds for concern. The Minister should look into it. I see no reason why the Irish dairy industry, properly organised and with proper interests in its organisation, should not be able to participate up to 100 per cent in the promotion and administration of milk-processing enterprises.

We have an outstanding example in my own neighbourhood of the Golden Vale Food Products at Charleville, which represents a co-operative grouping of 16 or more central creameries in Limerick and Cork. There is, as far as I am aware, no foreign participation in that industry and as far as I know the same applies to Mitchelstown. The Irish dairying industry is well able, if properly encouraged, to look after its own interests and is quite capable of availing of any opportunities for processing, for the establishment of new processing plants and so forth. As I am on this point, and the Parliamentary Secretary is across the way from me. I hope that the proposal for the establishment of a milk powder plant in Tipperary will materialise in the very near future.

I have an interest in this because quite a considerable number of dairy farmers in East Limerick would be concerned with this plant. I understand that a deputation was up this week. I sincerely hope it will move ahead because certainly in the part of East Limerick which would be catered for by the proposed plant in Tipperary, there was a problem of a surplus of milk. It was a problem by reason of the fact that existing plants were unable to absorb all the milk produced in the particular area.

In summing up, I want to say that there has been a vast increase in the output of milk. It was 14 per cent last year and it will probably be greater this year. The Minister stated in reply to a question I addressed to him a week ago, although he did not mention it here today, that the capacity of the processing plants has been increased. He said that the capacity now available would be able to absorb all the milk produced this year. As I said, I have now doubts about that. I feel that a stage has been reached when a new approach will have to be adopted towards the dairying industry as a whole and particularly towards the processing and exporting end.

I want to repeat what I said earlier. I feel that a national milk marketing board is now the answer. This does not in any way reflect on the work of Bord Bainne but the rapid growth of the dairying industry and the potential it has for still further growth necessitates a new national organisation which would be much more streamlined, which would ensure that existing processing plants are expanded and new processing plants established adequate to keep pace with this continual rise in milk production. I want the Minister to let us have some idea particularly of his views in relation to the fears that have been expressed by people connected with the dairying industry regarding increasing participation by foreign interests in the Irish dairying industry.

I note in the Minister's speech in relation to quality milk bonuses that the returns for 1967 now show that the proportion qualifying for the quality milk bonus is as high as 66 per cent. I confess I am amazed at that. I would be inclined to think that the figure of 55 per cent which was forecast would be more like it. However, I accept what the Minister has said and I would also say that it is praiseworthy on the part of the farmers to have gone to such pains and taken such trouble to improve the quality of their milk, to the extent that it is now at the stage where two-thirds of the milk production qualifies for the bonus.

This is a matter of great significance and it indicates that the time is not far distant when this figure of 66 per cent will rise to 90 per cent. I would expect, if this figure of 66 per cent is correct, that in 1968 the figure could well have gone to 85 or 90 per cent. This is significant particularly in relation to what I have been trying to say already regarding the problem of disposing of surplus milk.

With the improvements in the quality of milk being produced, it is easier for our processing factories to go into the more specialised type of dairy product. I have always heard it said that there was an excellent export market for what are known as speciality cheeses, that is, the cheeses which would be regarded as luxury items. The problem here has been that this particular type of product demands a very high quality milk. Up to now many attempts to produce the various types of cheeses have failed because of the fact that our milk was not up to the required quality. Now with the vast improvement in the quality of our milk, there must surely be further scope for research into, and perhaps expansion in, the production of the speciality dairy products, mainly cheese.

Deputy Clinton referred to the proposal to establish a lactose factory in the South of Ireland. I put down a question to the Minister a week or so ago regarding the same thing and he informed me that this was being examined, but, as Deputy Clinton pointed out, there is a question as to whether the establishment of a lactose plant would be a more economic proposition than the feeding of whey to pigs. I understand lactose is a by-product of whey; I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary am I right.

It is a question now whether it would be more economic having regard to the national interest to produce lactose from whey or whether, on the other hand, it would be a better thing to feed whey to pigs. Perhaps the Minister could throw some light on this matter.

I understand the Minister received a deputation a week or so ago from the Irish Creamery Milk Suppliers Association regarding the possibility of an increase in the price of milk delivered to creameries in the current season. There is no doubt that milk production has gone up substantially and dairy farmers' costs have also gone up substantially. I hope the Minister will give sympathetic consideration to the possibility of granting a further increase in the basic price as well as in the quality price of milk.

I notice with reference to the total amount of grants paid in respect of milk coolers that the Minister has expressed disappointment with the extent to which these grants have been availed of. He said that nearly 1,500 grants, amounting to over £9,000, had been paid by 31st December and a sum of £20,000 is being provided in the Supplementary Estimate for the scheme. Deputy Tully made an observation, with which I fully agree, that dairy farmers in certain cases, and perhaps they might be more numerous than we imagine, are unable to avail of these milk cooler grants because they have not got electricity. I would agree with Deputy Tully with regard to farmers in outlying areas that the ESB seem to be unbending in meeting the problems of these farmers. Certainly I think the Minister could look into this matter.

The Minister made some reference to the increased exports of butter, cheese and other dairy products and the Exchequer's contribution towards export losses and subsidies. He did not refer to the problem which has arisen, or which we are told has arisen, in relation to the milk powder market. Apparently there has been a substantial drop in the export price for milk powder and this is causing concern also.

As I said, provided the Minister ensures that the necessary steps are taken to increase the capacity of the existing processing plants, provided the right encouragement is given to the various co-operative creameries to promote further processing plants and provided the farmers are encouraged to produce milk, I believe that there is, despite the problems which now might seem to be there, a reasonably bright future for the dairying industry.

Deputy Tully referred to the lack of an intensive campaign to increase the consumption of milk and dairy products on the home market. There is the National Dairy Publicity Council which has been endeavouring to do a good deal of work in this regard but I do not think its efforts can compare with the efforts of the Milk Marketing Board in Britain and we have nothing equivalent to the campaign to which Deputy Tully referred, the "Drinka Pinta" campaign in Britain. This is another reason why I feel we have now reached the stage where our whole approach to milk marketing, milk processing, milk exports and various processing will have to be looked at in a new light and a new organisation established, call it a National Milk Marketing Board or what you like. That seems to be necessary.

The Minister referred to the Pigs and Bacon Commission. Second only to the dairying industry, pigs and bacon constitute an important industry in my constituency but, unfortunately, since we had the debate on the Estimate for the Department of Agriculture, one of our oldest established bacon factories was forced to close down. This was a terrible tragedy not only because 100 men were disemployed but from another point of view: it is a terrible reflection on our agricultural policy that an industry which had been in production more than 100 years and which had been known in many foreign markets and had been renowned for the quality of its bacon products should have had to close down. Mattersons had to close down because there was a shortage of pigs.

The whole set-up in the pigs and bacon industry is very unsatisfactory.

Deputies who spoke this morning expressed various views about the economics of large-scale and small-scale pig production. At the time of the closing of Mattersons last April or May, I submitted a memorandum to the Minister for Agriculture based on investigations I had carried out and research I had done. In that memorandum I made a recommendation that the Department of Agriculture and the Pigs and Bacon Commission should explore the possibility of establishing further pig-fattening stations throughout the country. The Parliamentary Secretary and I have a joint interest in this matter, he, perhaps, more than I because there is an outstanding example of a successful pig-fattening station in the Glen of Aherlow across the Limerick border in the Parliamentary Secretary's constituency.

The operation in the Glen of Aherlow is immensely successful and may I, while on the subject, pay a tribute to the present President of Muintir na Tíre, Father Purcell, through whose energy and initiative this fattening station was established? I am worried because though some of the fattening stations have been successful, others have not. Almost a year ago, at the time of the closure of Mattersons when I submitted my memorandum, the Minister told me that the Department were surveying the entire question of pig-fattening stations; and I should like him to give us some information about the findings of the survey and to tell us whether the Department have made any decisions about the possibility or the feasibility of encouraging the establishment of further fattening stations.

As far as I can gather from investigations I have made into the problem of pig production—Deputy Clinton referred to it today—nowadays all the advantages lie with the larger producers, and the old idea of a small farmer or cottier fattening a couple of pigs at a time has become totally uneconomic. It seems to have been established that the ideal set up is individual farmers keeping two, three or four sows with the bonhams passing on to central fattening stations at the age of between ten and 12 weeks. There they are finished and brought to the bacon factory. I understand this is a good system.

There have been sufficient examples to enable the Minister and the Department of Agriculture to make up their minds whether this type of enterprise should be encouraged. I am satisfied from what I have seen of it, particularly from the example in the Glen of Aherlow in the Parliamentary Secretary's constituency, that this is the correct approach to the expansion of pig production.

At the outset of his statement, the Minister referred to the foot and mouth epidemic in Britain. He correctly said it was the gravest crisis which has confronted Irish agriculture in many a year. Fortunately, despite the great threat presented to us before Christmas, we have been extremely lucky to escape it. Credit is due to all who co-operated with the Minister and the Department but a special tribute is due to the thousands of our exiles who voluntarily decided to remain in Britain during the Christmas period. This was a great sacrifice on the part of our exiles to which tribute should be paid not merely in words but also in deed.

For that reason I compliment the NFA for having undertaken the work of providing a special fund towards making grants to various emigrant welfare centres in Britain. If the Government were to make some tangible practical contribution towards the various organisations in Britain catering for our exiles, in appreciation of the magnificent manner in which our exiles responded to the call at Christmas, it would be very well received.

There are just one or two other points I should like to comment on. Deputy Tully and Deputy Clinton referred to the British Government ban on imports of meat from certain countries where foot and mouth is endemic. The Irish Government have indicated their views to the British Government. It has been scientifically established, as far as I am aware, that the recent epidemic in Britain was caused by a virus which was found in the bone marrow of meat which had been imported. Therefore, whatever pressure our Minister can bring to bear on the British Ministry towards the continuation of this ban would be desirable.

Listening to the Minister's speech this morning, one gets the impression of the obvious, which is that the agricultural community will increase production if it gets the proper incentives and if the proper markets are available. His statement indicates that there has been an increase in production in practically every farming activity during the past year. This is as it should be and it must be good news to us. However, a large part of the constituency which I represent is not able, unfortunately, to take part in this increased productivity. As more and more information becomes available, it becomes more and more obvious that its activities are limited to dairying and perhaps pig-rearing. I refer to the area which is called the Drumlin Soils which stretches across the north of the State from east to west coasts but varies in quality, the quality on the east side being far superior to that on the west where there are fewer natural advantages. Traditionally, agricultural work there has been of a dairying nature and of a pig-rearing nature and the science people are now confirming that this is the position and, worse still, that this must continue to be the position.

For that reason, any remarks made today urging the Minister further to develop the dairying industry are welcomed by us. I am aware that the Minister and his Department are considering the question of a milk powder plant for the north-west area and that there have been some difficulties involved. I hope some solution will be found to this problem. The question of pig-rearing is one that amazes me. We have heard so often about the up and down cycle and yet nobody seems to have the explanation for this. The more I hear about it the more I am satisfied that the solution which I offered before in this House is the only solution. I suggested that pigs should be produced on a contract basis between the producer and the processor. This has been carried out successfully in regard to beet, by the beet producers. I am not asking that the Minister and his Department should set about doing this; it is a matter for the farming community. They should be able to undertake this work and see it through successfully.

As I see it the marketing of pigs is chaotic. In the village in which I live, I see lorries carrying pigs from Cavan to be processed in Sligo and I see lorries carrying pigs from Sligo to be processed in Cavan. There must be something essentially wrong here. I do not think that the competitive aspect of the market is such that it pays to bring those animals this distance. In the long run, it is the producer of the pig who pays for all this. By their own organisation, the farmers would be able to keep this money in their own pockets. Arising from the research work that has been done in the Drumlin Soils, it is now becoming more and more obvious that water, which has been mentioned by previous speakers and which is of importance in the dairying and pig industries, is not easily available in this particular area. Pumps must be sunk to a depth of 100 or 200 ft. which is a costly operation and added to it is the fact that the water must be softened. This is a problem for the Department of Agriculture. It is not sufficient to say that this is a matter for the Department of Local Government because the grants made available by that Department to the individual are too costly for him to undertake the work. It has been suggested to me that if those grants could be pooled and made available to two or three people for boring, much more progress would be made.

Listening to the Minister's speech and to other speeches, it was disturbing to learn that markets may not be available for milk and milk products and that there is a push, particularly from the EEC countries, to unload extra butter on the world markets. This is very disturbing news and it must be difficult to find an answer to it. Having read something about this, one answer, which perhaps is a revolutionary answer, suggests itself to me. Perhaps it might not be acceptable for a few years. I read that the big American companies, in the hope of getting outlets for their milk products, have established factories in undeveloped countries. There is one in the Lebanon and another in the Philippines and perhaps there are others throughout the world. If this is the answer to the American problem, it should be examined and a decision reached in regard to whether it is an answer to our problem. If it is an answer to our problem we should get into some of the undeveloped countries in the same way in order to get outlets for our dairy products.

As I said, this is a revolutionary suggestion and I can understand the use that would be made of it if the Minister for Agriculture decided before the by-elections, say, to establish such a factory in an undeveloped country. He would be asked: "Why not develop it in this country?" But in all problems like this, in trade and commerce, we must have a very broad outlook. This is not my idea, because I read it, but if there is anything in it, we should pursue it, make a decision and go ahead with it.

I should also like to congratulate the Department of Agriculture on the way in which they have dealt with the foot and mouth disease problem. It posed a very difficult problem for them and the officials were very much overworked. I should like to place on record that I received from them the greatest assistance and courtesy in any application I had to make. I should just like to say also to the Minister that he would be foolish if he let himself be bulldozed into making too many relaxations. He has adopted the right attitude and he should stand firm in order to protect our agricultural interests until we have definitely reached the safe margin, which all hope we will reach in the near future.

I should like to say a few words about grain prices. The Minister announced recently that the price of barley and wheat would be the same as last year. There are two factors I want the Minister to take into consideration here. The first is that the OECD have promised 4,500,000 metric tons of wheat to aid developing countries which are short of food. Secondly, the European Economic Community or, shall we say, Europe as a whole, find themselves in short supply of barley and coarse grains. That shortage is likely to continue into the foreseeable future. The Minister must be the first, I think, to admit that farmers' overhead charges have gone up considerably. They will go up further after 1st April when the increase of 15/- a week in wages comes to be paid; that figure will be increased to £1 in September, just at the commencement of the harvest. Those Deputies who come from grain constituencies—I represent the granary of Ireland, Wexford—will not be fobbed off with prophecies that greater yields and greater efficiency will offset any extra charge imposed on farmers. That is really meaningless jargon and the Minister could safely increase the price of feeding barley by 5/- and the price of wheat——

The debate is on the Supplementary Estimate, which, I would remind the Deputy, is confined to the subheads.

Wheat is dealt with.

Barley is not covered.

Grain subventions are covered. The wheat problem is not as acute as the Minister believes it to be. Surplus supplies of wheat, about which the economists were worried, have all disappeared. They have been bought up by mainland China and the countries behind the Iron Curtain. There is not likely to be any great problem for the Minister in continuing the policy of wheat growing, a policy on which his Party used to be desperately keen at one time. It was, in fact, the main plank of Fianna Fáil policy in days gone by. There will be a considerable shortage of wheat in the not too distant future. The demand will come from the developing countries when they are in a position to buy. Some are gradually moving into that position.

I do not think the Minister and his Department are correlating Irish agricultural policy to world agricultural conditions to the extent they could. There is an acute shortage of beef. The Minister knows the reason why just as well as I do. The total output of Irish beef exports would feed only approximately 3,000,000. Because of the shortage, the price is high at the moment. There is an all-out demand for beef because of the heavy slaughter of stores in Britain. There is an all-out demand for finished beef because Britain cannot secure imports from the Argentine. Unless we wish to revert to the position which obtained after the Anglo-Irish Free Trade Area Agreement, under which we promised to give the British all we had in return for no fixed price, though we were tied to certain deficiency payments which had obtained prior to that, we will have to take immediate steps to rectify the present situation. The present policy is contrary to the direct advice we got from the OECD not to put all our eggs in one basket. It should be evident to the Minister and his advisers that, prior to the onslaught of foot and mouth disease in the United Kingdom, the beef market was very shaky. Prices were bad. The outlook was uncertain. That situation is likely to recur unless the Minister secures an alternative market.

The Minister dealt fairly fully with the situation in his opening speech. He dealt very fully with the beef situation, but I see no hope in his speech in the event of conditions returning to normal. There is no guarantee of our not having to meet again a severe slump in prices similar to the slump 12 or 15 months ago. The Minister said it is impossible to get a market in the EEC because of the restrictive tariff; we would have to export against a 40 per cent tariff.

About 12 months ago, or later, very many farmers had to take £6 a cwt for cattle, for absolutely first-class stock. The price in continental Europe has ranged between £10 and £12 a cwt. This is the fixed price established over the past four or five years. It becomes a simple exercise in mathematics. If you sell a beast weighing 12 cwt at £12 per cwt, you get £144; you sell the same beast at home for £84. You can pay the tariff and still not be at a loss. It may be asked what is the sense in doing that; it is easier to send it to Britain. But you can gain something. You gain an alternative market and, if you gain an alternative market, you ensure that the farmers will not be victimised again by having their prices forced down, which is what has happened over the past two years.

I suggest the Minister make another trip to Europe. The country can well afford to pay his expenses and keep him there for some time, provided he can bring home some sort of interim agreement. President de Gaulle told the Minister's leader that he would be happy to have an interim agreement with this country. That is just another name for a trade agreement. From my contacts in Europe, I am certain that it would be quite possible for us to get a market in the Republic of France. At one time we were selling quite considerable amounts of beef there. Many French people told me they did not know we could produce such fine beef. In fact, they never had eaten anything like it before. The system in France is that they work the animals, milk them and kill them at a later date. They go in largely for veal and second-class and often third-class beef. I am sure there is a market there and the Minister should look into it.

Even though there is not a really high profit concerned, at least it is an alternative market and an alternative market is the only thing that will ensure stability in selling to the British market. Our beef is always acceptable to Britain. They have bought it and eaten it over the years. They will continue to do so but—I do not blame them—if they can get it for half nothing, they will do so. If they have to face opposition—opposition is the breath of life— it means you can get better results on the sale. Yesterday when the question of beef prices was discussed here and it was suggested by somebody on this side of the House that the improvement in prices was due to the foot and mouth trouble in the United Kingdom, there was loud laughter from the Fianna Fáil benches. I hope the Minister does not share in the illusion apparently shared by those sitting behind him that the price of beef is up to what it is and is going to be stabilised at that on the British market ad infinitum. If he does, he is barking up the wrong tree.

With regard to milk, the Minister rightly devoted a good deal of time to the problem of milk. Milk is absolutely fundamental to beef. There is no denying the fact, as other speakers have acknowledged, that milk is going through a difficult period. The only possible way of feeding the starving millions in the world today is by some form of protein rapidly developed and rapidly transmitted to the different parts of the world. The OECD recently published an article on world food conditions which gave the warning that agricultural production was going down in the developing countries and was not rising at a sufficient rate in the developed countries to meet the demand for food likely to come or for even what exists today. It also mentioned the fact that in the developing countries the production of protein foods in the form of milk and beef was practically negligible.

I do not want to weary the House by reading out the statistics I have here. We are producing milk in excess. Many of our co-operative societies are running into difficulties as a result and are unable to dispose of the produce. The Minister pointed out that subsidisation is high, but subsidisation is essential. If you do not have a sound dairy industry, you will not have the livestock on which the economy of this country is virtually hanging and has been over the years. For that reason, it is necessary that the Minister should take a look at the question of producing proteinised milk as rapidly as possible. I agree his Department are studying the question, but there is not much use in continually studying the question when people are starving to death in many parts of the world. We were recently represented at the UNCTAD Conference in Delhi dealing with this particular problem of trying to get milk products as quickly as possible into these different parts of the world. It was unfortunate that the Minister himself was unable to attend, but it is understandable because he was dealing with the foot and mouth situation. I am glad to say that at least this country was represented in person by a Minister, Deputy Dr. Hillery, the Minister for Labour.

All these factors considered, it is not unreasonable to suggest that without warning there may suddenly descend upon the developed countries of the world a demand for proteinised milk. If you are establishing one of these milk factories set up for the purpose of turning this milk into protein it is not a matter of turning on a switch and starting it overnight. It takes at least two years to establish one of these factories. A few years ago the world was full of wheat. It disappeared overnight because of the demand that came from the different parts of the world. I suggest that this demand for proteinised milk is going to appear at any moment. We are not in a position to meet it. If we got a demand for proteinised milk at present, what could we do about it? The simple answer is "Nothing"—we could not supply it.

Supposing tomorrow we got a demand from the United Nations to export tons of that milk to them, we could not do it. What milk we are proteinising at the moment we are selling on the British market. This brings us back to the old story—that the mind of the Fianna Fáil Government does not extend beyond the British market. That is why I say it is absolutely essential that Irish agricultural policy be correlated to world conditions. If this demand comes, we have nothing to send. We are associated with all the different organisations endeavouring to deal with the problem I am talking about, but we have nothing to offer. We may perhaps be able to send out agricultural advisers to tell the people what to do. That may help the situation slightly but it does not meet and will not meet the demand that is going to come in the not-too-distant future.

In my own constituency we have a milk problem. It is not peculiar to us and it is not anything different from any other creamery centre. What has been happening is that the separated milk has been poured down the drain because there is no outlet for it, whereas the outlet is to manufacture it and send it where it will be used to stop people from starving. The question of milk and beef is obviously one that is being dealt with within the Department. The policy appears to be to see if we can get through the financial year, if we can stop a catastrophic fall in the price of beef and if we can keep subsidising so as to keep the milk going and the farmers quite. That is the agricultural policy of the Government. It is not a policy in world conditions as we find them today. It is time some wider thinking were introduced, some fresh ideas came through the doors in Merrion Street, so that we might have a long-term agricultural policy commensurate not only with the needs of our own people but with the needs of the people in different parts of the world struggling to exist in adverse circumstances and who very often have not got happy governmental control. The members of the Fianna Fáil Government should be prepared to listen to me when I say why they have not got happy governmental control. One of the reasons is that they have the straight vote.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
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