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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 9 May 1968

Vol. 234 No. 9

Shannon Free Airport Development Company, Limited (Amendment) Bill, 1968: Second Stage.

I move that the Bill be now read a Second Time.

The purpose of the Bill is to provide for the further financing of the Shannon Free Airport Development Company Limited by extending the limits on investment contained in the current legislation. The Bill provides for:—

(1) An increase from £6,000,000 to £8,000,000 in the aggregate of the amounts which the Minister for Finance may subscribe in taking up shares of the company;

(2) An increase from £3,000,000 to £6,000,000 in the aggregate amount of grants, voted annually, which may be made to the company, and

(3) An increase from £3,000,000 to £7,000,000 in the existing statutory limit on repayable advances by the Minister for Finance for the provision of houses and community services.

The Development Company was set up to promote the increased use of Shannon Airport for passenger and freight traffic and for tourist, commercial and industrial purposes. It has been recognised that the greatest scope for the company's energies lies in developing the Industrial Estate and in using the existing advantages at the airport to promote industry. In addition the company has promoted the establishment at Shannon of warehousing and commercial and service activities. It has also engaged very successfully in the promotion of passenger traffic at the airport mainly through the encouragement of tourism in the surrounding area. All these activities contribute markedly to the maintenance and development of Shannon Airport which is a very important national investment and asset and a focal point for economic growth.

Share capital subscribed to the company is used for the provision of factory buildings. These are normally rented to the occupiers but factory bays may also be purchased outright or may be built on sites leased from the company. Repayable advances are used for the provision of dwellings and community services for the purposes of the Industrial Estate. The houses are provided by the company to rent or to purchase and developed sites are also made available for persons wishing to build their own houses and for speculative building. The grant-in-aid moneys are applied towards meeting the company's running expenses and providing financial assistance to industries including grants towards factory buildings, new machinery and the training of workers.

The finances provided to the company under existing legislation (SFADCO Ltd. Acts 1959 to 1965) up to 31st March, 1968 were as follows:—

Share capital

£5,051,000

Repayable advances

£3,050,000

Grant-in-aid

£2,856,000

The balances remaining under existing statutory provisions are therefore:—

Share capital

£949,000

Repayable advances

£3,050,000

(deficit)

Grant-in-aid

£144,500

The balance available in the case of grant-in-aid is not sufficient to meet requirements for the current financial year while the balance of share capital is barely sufficient for the year. The existing limit of £3,000,000 on repayable advances has already been reached and it is necessary to finance repayable advances temporarily from share capital pending enactment of the present legislation. Interest on the amounts temporarily issued as share capital will be payable from the date of issue. The introduction of new legislation at this stage is in accordance with the intention when the 1965 Act was under consideration. It was decided then that the limits settled should cover the company's operations up to about the present time.

The company has been making steady progress in attracting new industries to Shannon. At 31st March, 1968, there were 27 manufacturing concerns in operation at the airport compared with 14 at 31st March, 1965. Of the 27 concerns, one had built their own factory, two had purchased their factories and the rest occupied factories on a rental basis. Proposals for the establishment of four further manufacturing concerns are under consideration.

The manufacturing activities cover a wide range of products including electronic equipment, yarn, fabric, finished garments, pianos, industrial diamonds, precision tools, floor maintenance equipment and many other items. Practically all the output is exported.

The company promotes the establishment of warehousing activities with a view to stimulating air freight traffic through the airport. At 31st March, 1968, seven warehousing concerns were in operation and proposals from another concern were being considered. In addition, 13 commercial and service concerns were operating at 31st March, 1968, with a proposal for a further concern under consideration. The commercial activities included data processing and consultancy and trading business.

A total of 60 factories and ten warehouses were occupied at 31st March, 1968, compared with 40 factories and three warehouses occupied at 31st March, 1965. Twelve more factories and two warehouses were under construction and a further 31 sites had been reserved by existing firms with a view to expansion of their activities.

In the calendar year 1967 exports from the Industrial Estate amounted to £32.6 million and imports were valued at £22.5 million, leaving a net balance of £10.1 million. This balance gives an idea of the volume of work being carried out at the Industrial Estate and its contribution to the country's balance of payments. The percentage of total national exports of manufactured goods represented by exports from Shannon increased from 21 per cent in 1964 to 29 per cent in 1967. In relation to total national trade in 1967, Shannon exported 1½ per cent of total exports and imported four per cent of total imports. Air freight generated by the Industrial Estate in 1967 was 3,301 tonnes compared with 876 tonnes in 1964.

The company promotes tourism through Shannon in conjunction with other promoting bodies including Bord Fáilte, the air companies and CIE. This promotion is reflected in the growth of terminal passenger traffic at Shannon. Terminal traffic in the year ended March, 1968 exceeded 320,000, the highest figure in the airport's history. The tours, banquets and other tourist activities promoted by the company catered for over 100,000 people in 1967.

At 31st March, 1968, 3,942 people— 2,238 males and 1,704 females—were employed in the Industrial Estate as compared with 2,927—1,538 males and 1,389 females—at 31st March, 1965. The total employment in the whole Shannon complex at 31st March, 1968 was over 6,000 people and their total annual income has been conservatively estimated as being in the region of £4 million. The number of people resident in the Shannon community was over 2,100; 443 houses and 137 flats had been constructed by the company for rent or sale and almost all of these were occupied or allocated. A further 130 houses were under construction. In addition to the company-built houses, 25 houses had been constructed by private builders on developed sites provided by the company and 18 such houses were in course of construction. Consideration was being given to arrangements with a speculative builder who proposes to build further houses for sale. Clare County Council also plans to construct houses in the new town. However, the bulk of the housing requirements at Shannon will have to be provided by the company for a number of years to come. In addition to housing development, certain community services have been provided by the community, the company or by other authorities. These include two churches, a comprehensive school, a community hall, two primary schools, shops and recreational and library facilities.

The majority of the workers at Shannon live outside the community and commute to the factories at Shannon. The development of the new community is becoming the biggest single element of the company's work, in terms of the finances involved, of its complexity and of its vital importance to the attraction of industry and to stabilising future industrial growth in the region. It is clear to the company that industrial development and community development are interdependent whether in planning or in building, in working or in social living. Having regard to these factors and to the relevant observations in the report of Dr. Lichfield, the planning consultant for the region, the company are fully satisfied that the minimum viable community which must be aimed at in Shannon's particular geographic environment is one of not less than 6,000 people. Based on the rate of progress necessary to attain this end, it is proposed that provision should be made in the new legislation for the necessary funds for the three years to 31st March, 1971, by raising the limits in existing legislation to the figures which I have quoted.

In regard to grants-in-aid, these grants provide for the running expenses of the company and also enable the company to pay grants to industrialists for buildings, machinery and the training of workers. Grants paid to the company to 29th February, 1968 amounted to £2,687,500. In addition, the company received £1,201,567 by way of rents and other income; £2,327,376 was used by the company for promotion and administrative expenses and grants totalling £1,463,314 were made to industrialists.

It will be seen that the confidence which I expressed in the continued progress of the company when recommending the 1965 legislation for the approval of the House has been fully justified and I consider that it is necessary that the company should be provided with the financial resources up to the limits now proposed to enable them to consolidate the progress already made and to provide for further orderly progress in the future. The outline which I have given of the progress made by the company to date affords ample proof of the continuing value to the national economy of the Shannon enterprise and I am convinced that the additional finances now sought will prove to be a prudent investment in the national interest. For my own part, I wish to congratulate the board, management and staff of the company and all those who are contributing to the success of the Shannon project.

As has already been announced, it is the Government's view that it would be clearly beneficial to make use of the successful experience of the Shannon Free Airport Development Company Limited within the Limerick/Clare/ North Tipperary region. Accordingly, it has been decided that the company will function as an organ of industrial development within this region and will be responsible to the Minister for Industry and Commerce for industrial estate development and possibly the building of advance factories within the region.

The company will report to the Minister for Industry and Commerce on all industrial and related matters, including those at the Shannon Industrial Estate, but will continue to report to me on its tourism and aviation activities. This Bill is without prejudice in any way to what may be done under the new arrangements and is related to requirements under the existing arrangements. Any additional financial arrangements for developments in the company's extended area of operations will be announced separately as will the details of any legislative action necessary.

I recommend the Bill for the approval of the House.

Towards the end of his speech, the Minister offered congratulations to the board, management and staff of the company and to all those who are contributing to the success of the Shannon project. I should like to join in those congratulations. These people deserve the nation's thanks for the magnificent work they are doing, but I may be pardoned if I strike one discordant note. Recently it was brought to my notice that a certain amount of political discrimination is beginning to creep in down there, particularly since we had a by-election in Clare and again since the Limerick by-election became imminent. It would be a tragedy if political discrimination crept in. It would be a tragedy if men were laid off simply because of their political affiliations. I sincerely hope that the Minister, in conveying to the board our congratulations, will remind them of what I have said and request them to ensure that this company will be kept above parochial politics—that it will be a national concern of which we shall remain proud and of which we are all proud.

In opening his speech, the Minister said that it was proposed to extend the limits of investment. I thought he was about to say, on the eve of the Limerick by-election, that it was intended to extend the limits of the Shannon Free Airport Area to include Limerick city, because I have heard on many occasions that it was proposed to extend the limits to include Limerick. Under the 1959 Act, the limits within which the airport must operate were clearly laid down. We accept that and we further accept the fact that there can be no extension without legislation by this House.

The much admired and much lamented former Minister for Education indicated on many occasions that the Government intended to extend the airport area to include the city of Limerick. It is as well that the people of Limerick should know that an amending Bill is now before the House and no harm to let them know that though it is intended to extend the financial limits, there is no intention to extend the area limits. It is as well to have that clear now in the event of any suggestion to the contrary during the election campaign.

I agree with the Minister that Shannon is doing a considerable amount for tourism not only in the West and South but for Ireland generally, but I have often wondered what will happen when transatlantic planes overfly Shannon, with Dublin as a possible terminus, or even if Dublin is barred to them and they extend the limits of their flights to British and continental airports. Some encouragement must be given to foreign companies to make Shannon one of their intermediate stops on transatlantic flights, and even, if necessary, give them even limited facilities to land at Dublin. Otherwise, we may miss this tourism potential to which the Minister referred and with which we all agree.

Now that Shannon has been established, as the Minister has pointed out, I think it is a pity that it is not a focal point for the distribution of tourists throughout the State by means of small charter flights from Shannon to various other parts—either in small planes or helicopters, if, that is, helicopters are a commercial proposition for the transport of tourists. I have been told that most tourists who disembark at Shannon make the immediate environment of Shannon their tourist visiting area. This is a pity when one remembers that Connemara, West and North Mayo and Donegal are within a few hours drive or a few minutes flight of Shannon. Therefore, the Minister might possibly find some method of linking Shannon with small airports established throughout the country. I understand that at the moment there is a link between Belfast and Shannon which is all to the good. If something could be done, say, by way of link-up of Shannon with Derry and with other small landing strips in the North-West such as Enniskillen, it would prove beneficial to the tourist industry throughout the West generally.

The Minister went on to explain the advantages of this industrial estate at Shannon. Many times we have heard mention of the advantages of these industrial estates which were set up. We are inclined to overlook the fact that it was the Act of 1949 which set up the Industrial Development Authority which was responsible for the establishment of these estates originally. We are also inclined to forget what the attitude of Fianna Fáil was when that Act was being debated in this House, and it might be no harm to remind ourselves of the attitude of Fianna Fáil to the establishment of the Industrial Development Authority under that Act of 1949. A few quotations might be useful, not only now but in the future.

I quote from column 1596 of Volume 119 of the Dáil Debates for 9th March, 1950. The then Deputy Leader of the Opposition, later Taoiseach, Deputy Seán Lemass is reported as having said:

Needless to say, we are opposed to this proposal. It is a typical product of the Fine Gael mind. During all the 25 years I have been a Member of this Dáil, I have been fighting against that Fine Gael mentality.

That Fine Gael mentality has evidently penetrated into the minds of Fianna Fáil so that they see the advantage of that Act and are very glad to reap the benefits of it.

Later, at column 1598 of the same volume, Deputy Seán Lemass is reported:

The Minister has said this Industrial Development Authority has had achievements. If there are achievements, we should be able to see them in factories built and men at work. Where are they?

The Minister has just told us now where they are and gloried and taken pride in, and we agree with him, the factories that have been established as a result of the Industrial Development Act of 1949. After Mr. Morrissey had said the factories were going to be built, Deputy Lemass said: "Where?" Now the Minister has told us where they were built and has told us the advantages of them to the State. There are almost 4,000 people employed in industry at Shannon.

Again at column 1599 of the same volume Deputy Lemass said:

The drive for industrial development has not lost its impetus. It will go on in spite of the Minister and the Industrial Development Authority but it will go on at a steadily diminishing pace, unless the impediments to it are removed.

Remember, the impediment to which Deputy Lemass referred was the Industrial Development Authority Act, 1949, an Act which has been praised by Ministers down through the years ever since then.

Again at column 1618 he said:

I am opposed to the Bill in principle ... but, in fairness to them and to anyone else who may be now or who may in the future become associated with this Industrial Development Authority, I want them to understand that my opposition and the opposition of Deputies on this side of the House to the whole idea in this Bill is fundamental and that at the earliest possible occasion we will terminate it ... Our hostility is to this Bill and to the principle of it ... if ever ... the Party on this side of the House becomes the Government ... these subsidiary bodies will cease.

They are very glad now to have it. Deputy Lemass was very glad indeed to retract what he said on that occasion.

Not only did he oppose the Bill but the present Taoiseach had a bit to say about it. At column 1633 of the same volume the present Taoiseach, Deputy Lynch, said:

I suggest again that it is a dangerous precedent to allow men appointed by the Minister to this Authority to have control over the expenditure of moneys in the establishment of industries that are being contemplated by private individuals ... if for no other reason, I am opposing the Bill on those grounds.

Twice since then we have had amending legislation in respect of the Shannon Free Airport Development Company Act, not only endorsing the Act of 1959 but extending the amount of moneys which are being made available. Let me say that we offer no opposition to this Bill: we welcome it. Were it not for the Industrial Development Authority, I think we will agree that Shannon Airport would not be the pride of this country it is today.

Deputy Lemass also said at column 1858 of the same volume:

... our opposition to this Industrial Development Authority and to the voting of money to it is due to the belief that it will not facilitate the expansion of Irish industry.... I have said that we do not believe in it and that we think it will be an impediment to industrial development. Consequently, it is to be assumed by the members of the Authority and by those employed in the service of that Authority that that opposition will be expressed in a repeal of this legislation some time in the future.

That was said in 1950, 50 years ago.

18 years, not 50 years.

Almost 20 years.

Deputy Lemass said that he would repeal that Act but now Fianna Fáil are taking the credit for it and are going around the country telling people that as a result of the incentives given under the Industrial Development Act—they do not mention the year it was introduced —they are entitled to the credit for the setting up of these industrial estates.

We have one in my own county, a Cheann Comhairle, not so far from where Deputy Breslin and I reside. We are very proud to have it there, and to let the people know that it was under the Industrial Development Authority Act, 1949 that the people there benefit by this particular industrial estate.

The Minister may say, and possibly rightly, what has all that got to do with what we are dealing with?

It has nothing to do with the Shannon Free Airport Development Company which started in 1957.

It has a lot to do with it because the Minister went on to tell us the number of factories which have been established at Shannon, the number of people who have been employed. What were the incentives to those people setting up a business at the Shannon Estate? Was it not the incentives provided under the Industrial Development Act, 1949 and the tax concessions given by the interParty Government under the 1956 Act? These are two of the major factors that made Shannon Airport the success it is. God knows, many people at the time might not have had the faith in Shannon that some of us had. Many people foresaw the day when Shannon would be overflown. I sincerely hope that will never happen because it would be ruinous to the economy of the West and South-West.

Perhaps the Minister in his reply would tell us the amount of foreign capital invested in Shannon vis-á-vis the amount of Irish capital, if it is possible for him to do so. It may be that the Minister has not got these figures at his disposal, but if he has, they might be interesting. We know that approximately 4,000 people are employed in industry there. We further know that there are approximately 6,000 people employed in all at Shannon. We know the amount of money made available by the State but we would like to know what amounts of foreign capital have been invested there since the establishment of this company at Shannon. If the Minister has the information, we will be very glad indeed to receive it.

The Minister tells us about the number of factories that have been set up. Perhaps he would tell us if any factories have closed and if so, how many, what the cost has been to the State and the number of people thrown out of employment as a result of the closing of those factories?

I am not going to be drawn into the dispute at Shannon at the moment over the employment of non-union labour. I do not propose to say anything about that subject, other than to hope and pray that this dispute may be settled and that it may not extend beyond its present limits. That is the fervent prayer of the Fine Gael Party and I think of all nationally-minded people.

As I said, I am not opposing this Bill on behalf of Fine Gael. We welcome it. Section 3 of the 1963 Act was amended to permit the Minister to take up shares to the value of £6 million as against £4 million under the 1963 Act. I understand that under the present Bill this will be stepped up to £8 million; in other words, we have doubled since 1963 the amount which the Minister is permitted to invest in shares in this company and we are doubling the amount of grants-in-aid which the Minister is permitted to give to it. All we can hope and pray for is that there may be a corresponding doubling of the number employed at Shannon during the coming year.

The Labour Party welcome this Bill and give it their full support. However, there are a couple of points I would like to make. One has already been partly made by Deputy O'Donnell, relating to the second paragraph on page 7 of the Minister's Statement in which he says:

As has already been announced, it is the Government's view that it would be clearly beneficial to make use of the successful experience of the Shannon Free Airport Development Company Limited within the Limerick/Clare/North Tipperary region. Accordingly it has been decided that the company will function as an organ of industrial development within this region and will be responsible to the Minister for Industry and Commerce for industrial estate development and possibly the building of advance factories within the region.

The Minister is a man for whom I have a very high regard but I would ask him would he honestly say if this is simply put there because there is a by-election coming off in Limerick. Let us have a straight answer to this. In the last by-election in West Limerick we had a prominent speaker for Fianna Fáil making a statement, for which subsequently the Minister for Transport and Power and the Minister for Industry and Commerce had to come into this House and state that there was no foundation, good, bad or indifferent.

No decision has been made yet.

No decision had been made at that time nor has it yet been made. Is the suggestion now that we are about to have such a decision made? Is that what is contained in paragraph 2 of page 7 of the Minister's statement? I would like to get this cleared up because during the by-election we will all have occasion to listen to perhaps some speaker from the Government pronouncing as a result of what is contained in this paragraph, that we are on the verge of a big breakthrough, that there will be factories springing up all over that portion of the country. I would like to have the Minister tell us here and now if that is what is intended or is this just a hope which he feels in the years to come may materialise.

All of us who fight by-elections and take part in campaigns like to be able to face facts with facts. I am sure the Minister has more experience of this than I have but there is nothing so annoying as having somebody saying something based on something the Minister said or he thought he said. I am sure the Minister knows the disappointment which occurs afterwards when it is found there is no basis whatever for the optimism in the district during the period of the particular by-election.

At the present time in Limerick there are a tremendous number of people unemployed. I would not like to have those people getting the impression that the Government are about to launch forth on a big scheme of development which will provide factories and work for them, that the Shannon Free Airport Development Company Limited are about to throw their mantle on Limerick and then everything will be grand. I would be grateful to the Minister if he would categorically state, whether or not this is just some scheme which will not operate for a number of years. I would like him to state if this is something which will be decided, say, within six months, 12 months or 18 months, or whatever time it will take to start this development. So much for that.

The amount of money made available is very sizeable and the number of jobs is very large. However, I feel the number of jobs being offered to girls is far too high. I feel an effort should be made to try to have more male employees. There is no scarcity, or there is not such a scarcity, of jobs for girls throughout the country but there is a scarcity of jobs for men. I feel that, with the 65,000 unemployed on the register at the moment, an effort should be made to find companies which will give more employment to men or, better still, should the State desire not to give the space for factories to other people, they should experiment, if you like, in full employment by setting up factories to cater for certain needs which they know exist and try to get employment in that area as a result of which they can expand to the other areas mentioned for the development of industrial estates.

The Government should face up to this some time. It is quite obvious that private enterprise are not going to create full employment here. It would not pay them to do it. As long as there is not full employment, they feel they can control wages and conditions to some extent. The Government should experiment somewhere and the Shannon estate seems to be the ideal place for something like this.

Deputy O'Donnell said he did not want, or his Party did not want, to become involved in the EI dispute. I do not agree with them. I think we are all involved in this dispute not because the factory has refused to recognise a trade union but because of the fact that the management of that factory apparently have decided to set at naught everything the Irish people hold dear, the High Court, the Labour Court as well as the trade union movement. They are turning their backs to everything the Minister for Labour and the High Court have done. If they get away with this, they will do very great damage to this country. Mind you, they are not fighting an individual case but they are trying to establish that the employment movement of this country should be entitled to set up a new norm or a new process for worker-employer relationships. The Government should not let them get away with that.

I know that if the Minister for Labour were here, he would immediately throw across at me: "Do you want the Government to take action on the trade union issue". My answer is "No". I do not want him to meddle because God knows, we have enough of it and do not want any more. I am sure the Minister for Transport and Power will appreciate this. We want to prevent somebody from outside, such as this company, coming into this country, getting large sums of money, not from the Government, but from the taxpayers of this country, most of whom are workers themselves, and having got substantial grants and loans, refusing to accept normal arrangements made in this country.

I believe the action of this company and their behaviour here are doing very great damage to industrial development in this country. I believe they are doing more damage than all the strikes and lock-outs we have had over the years. The fact of the matter is that the story going abroad will be that a factory such as the EI are in fact not being allowed to carry on as they should be and this false story will do this country irreparable damage. There are thousands of companies in this country, some of them Irish, some of them British, many of them from America, Germany and what-have-you and they have conformed to what are recognised conditions in this country. As a result of that, the relationship between themselves, their employees and the trade unions has always been very good.

Let me here make this comment, as a trade union official, that I and many more like me spend more time trying to smooth the path towards industrial relationship than we do trying to start strikes. It would be appreciated if the press would recognise this. Some of them seem to suggest that this is not the case. We on our side prefer to get things to run smoothly and we find it is far better to have negotiations on wages and working conditions than to see people walking around picketing, carrying placards and with only strike pay to sustain them. In spite of this we have overlooked the EI company coming here and trying to wield the big stick and trying to run under the cover of our Constitution when the facts are put before them.

Deputy O'Donnell hoped it would not spread. Let us face facts: it has spread. It has spread to the extent that everybody who is helping EI, whether they supply motor vehicles or fuel or spare parts, and many more items, is involved. All of those, whether they like it or not, are becoming involved up to the neck in this dispute. They want to injure the interests of the workers of this country but they will not get any succour from the workers when the time comes. The fact is that this has gone on and unless some attempt is made by this company to see reason, this will spread overseas and we will have the same disputes coming up all over the world, if something is not done at Shannon. The name of Shannon will become black.

I am asking the Minister to ensure that, even if nothing can be done by the Government—and it is the attitude of the Government that they can do nothing now to make the EI company conform—never again will a company come in here to try to rub the faces of the workers of this country in the dust as EI are doing at the present time. I had experience of a German company, as was mentioned in this House, who tried something similar. To their credit, it can be said that when they found they were not doing what is normally done in the country, they approached their solicitor and made an honourable settlement with us. The workers were reinstated and paid for the time they were out. This dispute is entirely different. The EI dispute is an attempt by a company which has an international reputation for bad labour relations to carry on, even if they have to carry on elsewhere.

Let me say also that people will say on television and on radio that they are getting good wages and enjoying good conditions. I have heard that before. I have heard employers of nontrade union labour appearing on the air offering wages and conditions miraculously attractive and as soon as the dangers disappear, reasons are found for reducing wages and conditions.

I am sorry for labouring this point but I am sure the Minister will appreciate the fact that all of us on the workers' side of the industrial fence are seriously perturbed by what is happening there. The Minister for Labour went perhaps further than he might have in inviting these people to talk and to try to explain what the position is. Their attitude to him is typical of how these people want to carry on.

I want the Minister to ensure that this will not happen again. When the Shannon Airport Development Bill comes before the House again, as it must, I feel that because of developments, because of the fact that so far it has been a success, if the present mix-up does not throw it back and spoil what has been done, the Minister might perhaps be able—and I hope it will be the present Minister if Fianna Fáil are still in power—or whoever is responsible for the Department, to say if an improvement will be made in the employment of men vis-á-vis women, and I suggest the State should take an interest in that.

A question was asked by Deputy Mullen of the Minister some time ago about a plane going in beside a factory and the reply generally was that it was not the responsibility of this Government, that it was subject to the regulations of the country from which the plane came. I am sure the safety regulations at Shannon should override any other regulations in relation to that plane coming in here. If it is accepted that a plane can go right in beside a factory, and while loading or unloading is taking place an accident occurs, is it the regulations affecting the plane in Britain or the regulations which affect the plane under the Minister's Department which will affect the inquiry which is bound to take place? This is a matter which should be dealt with. No facilities of this kind should be given to any company. There is a great danger that not alone will this factory, but many more, be affected if something goes wrong with the loading or unloading of a plane.

Deputy O'Donnell referred to certain legislation that has been passed by the Fine Gael Party. I do not think that at this stage one should get into controversy about which Government were able to encourage the greatest industrial development. I might take the opportunity of speaking about the 1952 under-developed areas grants which gave several grants to western areas in order to provide industries. Since 1957, more than 306 new factories were instituted to provide employment for 40,000 people. I do not think it necessary for me to stress the fact that it was Deputy Lemass, former Taoiseach, who was regarded by everybody, even by Fine Gael, as the architect of industrial relations in Ireland. I leave the rest of what Deputy O'Donnell said. I am simply repeating that statement now.

Deputy O'Donnell asked the amount of foreign capital invested in Shannon Free Airport Development Company interests. It is estimated at £8 million in 1967. Some six small factories closed and most of the employees were re-employed in other industries. I would say that the closure of factories in Shannon in relation to the total number promoted is regarded as reasonable and can be compared with the kind of failure that takes place in any community.

Deputy Tully asked me to state definitely the Government policy in regard to the extension of the Shannon Free Airport Development Company sphere of operation. That does not actually arise on this Bill but since he has suggested that this just might be a canard used to attract votes in the East Limerick election campaign, I should perhaps remind him that this is an absolutely fundamental decision in the light of changing conditions. We were aware that more industrial development is required. We got expert advice from An Foras Forbartha that the development of regional centres and the selection of certain towns for industrial factory sites, where facilities were sufficient, where transport and other infrastructural services were available could contribute to more industrial development.

This was agreed to by the National Industrial and Economic Council who recommended that because of the success of the Shannon Free Airport Development Area the Government should initially extend the provision of the factory site concept to Galway and Waterford. Most of the factory premises in Waterford have been booked. I am not sure of the position in Galway but I think it is satisfactory. We have examined the whole question of regional planning and became aware of its importance when the Lichfield plan for the Limerick/ Clare/North Tipperary region was published—the first of nine regional planning regions. For the first time we could see the concept of a plan by experts applied to tourism, industry, agriculture, roads, transportation, infrastructural services and so forth. It was an interesting and brilliant report. It suggested that the Shannon Free Airport Development Company should continue its activities but that industrial development should be based if possible on a regional concept.

We were also aware of the fact that in Limerick city, although there is great prosperity, there is also a large number of people unemployed. It seems, therefore, that, with the development of the successful operations of the Shannon Free Airport Development Company, the existence of a regional report which could be used by a development company as a basis for industrial planning and the existence of a large city with services available would suggest that the first area to be chosen would be that where an existing local regional development company, as distinct from the Industrial Development Authority, could make use of its talents, techniques and know-how in order to develop industry within the region.

The late Deputy Donogh O'Malley, most esteemed by all of us, naturally pressed vigorously from the very beginning for that development because he could see the success of the Shannon Free Airport Development Company and he noted the coming together of a series of steps which had been taken in the region to emphasise its importance. Therefore, the Government have taken this specific decision, first of all, that the IDA will be linked with An Foras Tionscal in one body with consequent savings on operations and more coordination. Secondly, the IDA will be gradually decentralised with a view to taking advantage of plans made by the other eight regional centres and planning authorities in order to develop a concept of industrial growth within certain centres that are regarded as having priority and where industries are most likely to be established.

The decision was that the first area where this would take place, where the machinery would be set up, would be the Shannon area. There was readily available there a splendidly successful organisation, which would expand its activities, adapt its techniques to a whole area, while at the same time maintaining the growth at Shannon. That is a completely honest statement. There is nothing about it which is in the nature of trying to attract votes in the East Limerick election. That is exactly how it progressed.

We are talking about Limerick city now. Could the Minister definitely say there is no proposal at present for any extension of the development area to Limerick?

In regard to the suggestion that there could be a customs-free port area as there is as Shannon Airport, that would have to be examined; but I think I could say, without danger of committing the Minister for Industry and Commerce, that it would be quite impossible to make Limerick borough a customs-free area. In fact, the existing customs-free area at Shannon Airport, although it is of commercial advantage and saves some administration costs, no longer has the significance one might think it would have. While it is possible to conceive of a customs-free area somewhere in Limerick harbour, if it is to be of any advantage it would all have to relate to the most complicated procedure. The main idea of the extension of the company is this: When the company get the capital, when they can acquire the know-how and have sufficient staff to undertake this regional development, it may suggest Limerick city or perhaps some other place as an area where industrial sites might be established and factory premises built.

That is very fair. I thank the Minister.

The Minister has clarified it.

Deputy Tully asked about the question of the employment of females. As the Deputy knows, it is very important to employ girls in rural areas because it does raise the purchasing power of small farmer families; but we do try to keep the proportion two-thirds male employment as far as possible.

I never dreamed of objecting to the employment of girls. I am saying I would like to see a higher percentage of male employed.

The target is two-thirds male employment. At present the figure is something below that, 57 per cent. Deputy Tully, speaking about establishing full employment at Shannon, suggested the Government might set up actual State companies for industrial production. That is a matter for the Minister for Industry and Commerce. All I can say is that in everything we have done in the past ten years, there has been no prejudice on the part of the Government against State participation as such. As the Deputy well knows, when Nitrigín Éireann Teoranta and the B & I——

I give the Minister full credit, but the B & I was not such a success as far as giving employment was concerned.

Next week you will see the first modern Irish passenger vessel owned by the Irish people setting sail for Liverpool. It may have taken a long time, but at least it is an indication that we are not prejudiced against State company activity. It is simply a matter of where it could be applied to the best advantage and whether it is advisable for State company purposes in the case of purely commercial industry. There is no absolute prejudice in regard to this at all.

Deputy O'Donnell suggested there should be linking services between Shannon Airport and various other parts of the West. As the Deputy knows, the small airfield is now beginning to be a proposition. There is one at Castlebar and there are various proposals for small airfields elsewhere. Should this kind of traffic develop, naturally there will have to be very small aircraft and they will have to have a pretty full load if they are going to pay.

I do not wish to interrupt the Minister, but does he rule out the helicopter on the grounds of economics?

They are very uneconomic. Helicopter services, even in the richest parts of America, tend to cease because they do not pay. As far as I remember, a small helicopter for two or three people costs, including depreciation, about £11 an hour to run.

The new 230 mph helicopter may change all that.

They may. In reply to Deputy O'Donnell, there will be no change in our policy in regard to the landing of aircraft at Shannon coming across the Atlantic. I do not think I need go further into that at this time. I have never heard any allegation of political discrimination at Shannon in regard to employment or grants. From what I know of the Board, they would be quite incapable of encouraging it and I do not think the private industrialists do it either. I think the Deputy must have been misinformed.

Finally, in reply to Deputy Tully with regard to the EI position, I do not think I need say any more than the Minister for Labour has already said. He made it perfectly clear that the Industrial Development Authority in America and in Dublin and the Shannon Free Airport Development Company at Shannon recommend new firms to engage in trade union relations. I do not think I need repeat what has been said so clearly by the Minister, and the Deputy knows what he has done. However, the fact does remain that there is no legislation in this country by which anyone could compel a firm and say to it: "You must use trade union labour." That, the Deputy knows, is the constitutional and legal position.

Will the Minister say if more care will be taken to see that more EIs do not come in? The Minister appreciates what I mean by that?

The experience which the Shannon Free Airport Development Company will have had will make it incumbent upon them in their negotiations with other firms to mention, as they have always done, the desirability of establishing a trade union connection.

Question put and agreed to.

When is it proposed to take Committee Stage?

Would the House agree to take Committee Stage now?

We would like very much to facilitate the Minister but it is a bad principle. Would next Wednesday suit the Minister?

I shall be in the Seanad next Wednesday.

Whatever day suits the Minister. Would Thursday suit? As I say, we should like to facilitate the Minister but it is a bad principle and sometimes there are criticisms in the press that we rush these things through. I am not doing this for any obstructive reason. I should like the Minister to understand that.

Committee Stage ordered for Thursday, 16th May, 1968.
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