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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 21 May 1968

Vol. 234 No. 12

Committee on Finance. - Vote 39—Labour.

I move:

That a sum not exceeding £1,163,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on 31st day of March, 1969, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Labour including certain Services administered by that Office and for payment of certain Grants-in-Aid.

The Estimate shows a net increase of £285,000 over the provision for last year, inclusive of the supplementary provision made in December last for special redundancy payments to former employees of Messrs. Rawson's, Dundalk. The increase in the Estimate reflects a programmed development of the services financed from this Vote, the main item of the increase being attributable to an expansion of the services of An Chomhairle Oiliúna.

Because of the importance which I attach to training, I shall deal first with the provision for An Chomhairle Oiliúna, which was set up, under the Industrial Training Act, 1967, since last year's Estimate was voted by the Dáil.

The programme of An Chomhairle Oiliúna calls for an expansion of the schemes of apprenticeship training initiated by the former Ceard Comhairle (the National Apprenticeship Board); training and retraining of workers at all levels; training of redundant or unemployed workers and retraining of agricultural workers for industrial employment; advance training of workers for new industrial projects; and training of instructors, supervisors and technicians where necessary.

Two pilot training centres are already under construction, one in Shannon and the other in the Waterford Development Estate. These will be operating before next autumn. Staff have been recruited for these centres and are being trained. Accelerated adult training will be provided in the centres in order to help new industries settling into these areas by providing the semi-skilled workers in demand. The trainees will be paid maintenance allowances and will be credited with social welfare contributions during training. By the end of the year I hope to see a similar centre in operation in the Galway Estate.

An Chomhairle, which is representative of employer, worker, educational and other interests, has had to spend some time in its early months in recruiting specialised staff. It has recently been engaged in training its own staff and in programming its activities for the future. I hope to be in a position shortly to lay the first report of the board before the House.

There is already enough evidence to show that a massive amount will have to be done in the field of training. I ask everybody concerned, employers, trade unions, educational, et cetera, authorities, to co-operate fully in the measures which will be necessary to improve the skills of our workers. The grant-in-aid provided in the Estimate is the substantial one of £450,000 and I have made it known to An Chomhairle Oiliúna that I hope that means will be found to spend it all beneficially during the year.

I mentioned last year that I had decided to proceed with the development of the Employment Service in two stages. The first stage consisted of a number of short-term measures for immediate improvements involving the provision of separate accommodation for placement work within the existing exchange premises in the larger centres and the appointment of placement officers to these exchanges. During the past year, seven placement officers were appointed, one in each of the four exchanges in Dublin, one in Waterford, one in Galway and one in Cork; and the provision for staffing the service, included in Subhead A, is up by £10,000 on last year.

However, for the purposes of arriving at long-term policy decisions on how the placement and guidance functions of the employment service should be organised to meet the needs of manpower policy as a whole, I felt that a detailed and comprehensive review of the situation should be made.

I, therefore, commissioned the Institute of Public Administration to carry out such a review and to make recommendations on the lines on which the placement and guidance functions should best be developed. The Institute research team, who were assisted by a steering committee representing workers' and employers' organisations and Government Departments, have presented their report to me and it was laid before the Dáil at the beginning of this month.

The report recommends that placement work should be divorced from the benefit-paying function of the employment exchanges; and that the task of placing people in jobs should be carried out in separate offices which would also accommodate a new guidance service to be set up under the control of the Department of Labour. The report says that these steps are necessary if the Placement and Guidance Service is to be effective as an important instrument of manpower policy. A further recommendation is that the service should be voluntary and competitive, without any compulsion on employers or workers to use it. It recommends that persons claiming unemployment benefit should no longer be required to register for employment with the placement service and that that service should not be used to test an unemployed person's willingness to accept work. These matters are at present being discussed with the Government Departments concerned. When the implications of the report are examined and the results considered by the Government, I shall make an announcement on plans for improvements in the Placement and Guidance Service.

Meanwhile, work on existing employment exchanges has continued. New exchange premises have been completed in Carlow and in Cahirciveen. Clifden, too, I hope will have a new exchange this year. New rented accommodation is being provided in Bantry and should be available in a few months. For Drogheda and Manorhamilton plans for new premises are being prepared. New accommodation may also be required in other centres. Decisions on these areas will be influenced by the policy decision taken on the Report of the Institute of Public Administration.

I had hoped to have an industrial psychologist recruited during the past year to help in developing the guidance and placement functions of the Employment Service so that it might be in a better position to place workers in jobs suited to their aptitudes and to provide employers with workers suited to their requirements. So scarce are the persons with the qualifications for this work that it was found necessary for the Civil Service Commissioners to advertise the post twice. There are good prospects now, however, that a suitably-qualified person will be appointed in the near future.

Difficulty was experienced in recruiting a suitable person to head the Manpower Forecasting Unit as persons with the required qualifications for the position are also in short supply. However, an appointment has now been made and work on organisation and the preparation of a programme is proceeding. Information available from abroad shows that the science of manpower forecasting has not yet been fully developed anywhere. I expect, therefore, that, for some time to come, the operations of the unit will be concentrated on analysing particular shortages in the labour force and short-term predictions, while keeping in touch with developments in manpower forecasting generally in other countries, with a view to devising and operating a set of forecasting procedures relevant to this country's manpower circumstances.

The provision of information on careers is a necessary adjunct to the development of the placement and guidance functions of the Employment Service. I, accordingly, set up a special central Careers Information Service in my Department with the task of providing a comprehensive range of information about various occupations open to persons in this country. With the aid of other Government Departments, State-sponsored bodies and various professional and other organisations, a considerable volume of information about careers is being built up and this is processed for publication in leaflets setting out basic information on each particular occupation.

An initial series of leaflets covering 50 occupations was issued last June and a further series was distributed in March, 1968. A further issue will be made before the end of the current school year and leaflets will continue to be issued until a comprehensive range of careers and occupations is covered. Irish language versions of the leaflets are being prepared and will be issued according as they become available.

All the leaflets produced so far relate to individual careers. The desirability of reproducing the information in other forms, for example, in booklets covering all the occupations in a particular industry, will be considered later.

There has been a steady demand for leaflets and information. Posters publicising them have been distributed for display in schools, libraries, post offices and other appropriate centres. The leaflets are available free, on request to the Department.

I am including a provision of £3,000 in Subhead I for this service.

During the past year manpower surveys were carried out in Waterford and Galway, both of which had been selected as development centres, so as to obtain reliable information about the present and future labour supply. A team of social scientists was recruited to undertake these surveys which commenced in July. The field-work is now practically completed and I expect to have a report on the Waterford survey by the end of the year and of the Galway survey about the middle of 1969. Surveys of this nature are a valuable source of information about our manpower resources and suggestions have been put to me that they should become a normal activity of the Department of Labour later on.

Other areas have expressed interest in similar surveys. However, I had to decline their requests to have these carried out at public expense, because of scarcity of qualified personnel. A comprehensive manpower survey is a long and costly affair and I am not at all convinced that such comprehensive study is needed in all the areas looking for them. I am considering, therefore, the alternative of inquiries of more limited scope, to be carried out by local voluntary effort under the guidance of a competent and fully qualified director. Any such scheme would have to satisfy certain professional and technical criteria and would, of course, have to be of practical value. At present the question of assessing one such group is under consideration as a pilot study. The cost of the surveys is borne on Subhead G—Research, for which a total provision of £20,000 is being made in this year's Estimate.

Apart from the manpower surveys, I am also anxious that research should be undertaken on certain social problems of interest to the labour force, such as attitudes to income differentials and the mobility of our workers. The NIEC has suggested that there is need for research into the factors affecting female employment in Ireland. My Department is in touch with the Economic and Social Research Institute as to how research in these matters could best be organised.

The Redundancy Payments Scheme came into operation on 1st January of this year and all the necessary arrangements, including the appointment of the Redundancy Appeals Tribunal, were made.

When the Redundancy Payments Bill was going through the House, a number of Deputies expressed concern lest workers would not be fully informed of their entitlements under the scheme. I, therefore, promised to publicise it as widely as possible. My Department accordingly published a guide to the scheme and a special booklet for employers as well as a leaflet containing a summary of the main provisions of the scheme. These publications and the normal publicity statements issued on the commencement of the scheme were given wide coverage and I should like to take this opportunity of thanking Radio Telefís Éireann and the newspapers for the assistance they gave in having the provisions of the scheme made known to the public.

The scheme is being administered through the employment exchanges and employment offices. Contributions to the Redundancy Fund are at present made by employers by means of affixing special redundancy stamps to redundancy cards. Following representations from employers about the expense and inconvenience of this procedure, I consulted the Minister for Social Welfare about merging redundancy and social insurance contributions in a unified card and stamp. I am glad to say now that we have found it possible to make arrangements for unified contribution cards and stamps and these will come into operation for men and women from the beginning of 1969.

In the first quarter of 1968, a total of 1,120 cases of redundancies, involving 229 firms, were notified to my Department. Included in this total, however, is a figure of 145 workers from one firm whose notices of dismissal were put in abeyance as the firm concerned, which was scheduled to close, was continued in operation on a reorganised basis. The effective total for the quarter was, therefore, 975 people. In the four-week period ended 26th April, 1968, a further 477 cases were notified making a total, for the first 17 weeks of the scheme, of 1,452.

The average lump-sum payment in the first quarter amounted to £115, and the average weekly redundancy payment was £5 10s 0d per person. While the effective total redundancies notified in the first quarter amounted to 975, claims for weekly redundancy payments at the end of the quarter amounted only to 360 per week, indicating that the majority of those declared redundant had been placed in alternative employment through the Employment Service or had succeeded through their own efforts in obtaining other jobs. An analysis which I have made of redundancies in the first quarter of 1968, shows that, of the total of 229 firms involved, 170 firms had each dismissed one or two persons only for reasons of redundancy.

I have always recognised that the general Redundancy Payments Scheme as provided for in the Act might not be suitable for certain classes of workers because of the nature of their employment. Deputies will be aware that provision was made in the Act for special schemes if this course should appear appropriate in the case of any special class of workers. Two classes of employees whose general pattern of employment might, I feel, warrant special schemes are dock workers and building workers. I have set up two committees representative of the ICTU, the employers' organisations concerned and my Department to examine the feasibility of special schemes for these classes. The committees have met on several occasions but agreement on proposals for a special scheme has not yet been reached in either case. To remove any anxiety which Deputies may feel on this score, I should explain that, in the absence of special schemes, the main scheme applies, so there is no question of a worker being denied the benefit of redundancy pay merely because a special scheme has not been negotiated for his employment.

As undertaken during the passage of the Redundancy Payments Bill through the Oireachtas, I am examining the question of extending the scope of the Redundancy Payments Scheme to clerical workers over £1,200 a year. It may be some time before this can be brought to the point of decision, as it involves examining the conditions of employment of numerous groups in this category to see to what extent these classes already have protection against redundancy.

Section 46 of the Redundancy Payments Act provided for a scheme of resettlement allowances, under which financial assistance could be given to persons who are obliged to move from their home areas to a new area to obtain employment.

Following consultation with the Manpower Advisory Committee, I have brought a scheme of resettlement allowances into operation. The scheme applies to persons who are unemployed, or are under notice of redundancy, and who are prepared to accept new employment beyond normal daily travelling distance of their homes. To be eligible for assistance under the scheme a worker must have been, immediately before becoming unemployed, in employment which was insurable for all benefits under the Social Welfare Acts, or in any other employment for which the remuneration did not exceed £1,200 per annum. The scheme provides for payments of allowances and grants as follows—interview grants, travelling allowances, household removal expenses, settling-in-grants, lodging allowances and legal expenses connected with the sale or purchase of a house.

I hope that this scheme will assist in facilitating that degree of geographical mobility among workers which is desirable in the interests of promoting national economic policy. The scheme will be kept under review for the purpose of considering any improvements in it that may be necessary and Deputies may take it that, in the absence of experience, the provision of £15,000 included for it in Subhead H of the Estimate is experimental.

It appears to me that the work of a Department of Labour can be most effective when there is co-operation, goodwill and confidence between its personnel and those in the various, and sometimes conflicting, organisations with which it deals.

In an effort to promote good relations, I authorised officers of the Department to attend meetings and address shop stewards, trade union members and part-time union officials on aspects of the work of the Department, the lectures being arranged by the Irish Congress of Trade Unions as part of their education programme. Officers were also authorised to speak on aspects of the work of the Department at meetings organised by management, administration and academic bodies.

I believe that the personnel of the Department and those with whom they deal in trade union, management and other quarters can gain from these exchanges. Already certain improvements have been made in official procedures as a result of suggestions made at these meetings.

Deputies will recall that I informed the House last year that, as a result of a review of the factory inspectorate, I had decided to increase its staffing from 22 to 28. Two competitions have been held by the Civil Service Commissioners and so far three additional inspectors have been, or are about to be, appointed. A full-scale Departmental review of the inspectorate has recently been completed and I am considering proposals for reorganising the service, so that it can best fulfil the role of industrial accident advisory and prevention service, envisaged for it when the Factories Act, 1955, was enacted.

The trend in industrial accidents notified to my Department showed a further increase of about 7 per cent in the year ended September, 1967, as against 1966, and, unfortunately, fatal accidents increased from 20 to 22. The statistics so far available for 1968 give reason to hope that the increase is being arrested, but it is too soon to say this definitely. While these accident figures are regrettable and investigations disclose that the majority of industrial accidents are avoidable, it must be borne in mind that the number of workers coming within the scope of the Factories Acts is increasing all the time.

I must report the continued failure of workers in industry generally to avail themselves of their rights under section 73 of the Factories Act to set up safety committees, only ten new committees having been established during the year, bringing the total up to a mere 99. The Department, in co-operation with the National Industrial Safety Organisation, has recently launched a campaign to get more safety committees established. This campaign stresses that initiatives coming from either managements or workers for the setting up of Safety Committees will be welcomed. If this campaign is not successful, I may have to ask the House to consider proposals for legislation requiring the setting up of committees in the larger factories and workshops.

The National Industrial Safety Organisation continues to develop its safety campaign, through meetings, conferences, exhibitions and training courses. Its latest contribution is the inauguration of a two-monthly journal called Sciath which will be distributed to affiliated organisations.

NISO has now been in existence for five years and is paid a grant in aid of up to £2,000 from Subhead K of this Vote, on a £1 for £1 basis related to the subscriptions raised from industries, trade unions and other organisations. The secretariat of the organisation is provided by the Department.

I have already informed the Dáil that a systematic review of the Acts relating to the welfare of workers, conditions of employment, etc., has been undertaken by the Department. As a first stage in this review, meetings have been held with representatives of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions and the two employers' organisations regarding proposals for bringing into line with modern requirements the Shops (Conditions of Employment) Acts, 1938 and 1942. The Department is also in touch with the ICTU and the FUE on proposals for legislation to give workers a statutory entitlement to minimum periods of notice on discharge. Deputies will recall that I undertook to consider such legislation when the Redundancy Payments Bill was being discussed.

Another matter which needs looking into is that of gaps in our protective legislation. Notwithstanding the wide coverage of the law, there are still certain workers who have not the benefit of the Factories Act or other similar legislation. For example, one particular class for whom there is no safety law —except they are working in factories —is window cleaners. Apart from safety there are some other types of workers who have very little statutory protection in regard to their conditions of employment, such as messengers employed outside the main cities. I have ordered an examination of this whole issue in order to identify the gaps in the protective law for workers and then to consider what to do to give as many as practicable of our workers a legal entitlement to some minimum standards of safety, health and welfare at their places of work.

The policy of developing our association with the International Labour Organisation is being continued. Last year a delegation representative of the Government, ICTU and the Federated Union of Employers attended the organisation's annual conference in Geneva and I myself had the opportunity of addressing the assembly. Among the instruments adopted by the conference were a Convention and Recommendation about maximum weight to be carried by workers and Recommendations about communications and grievance procedures. The question of accepting these is under examination in the normal way. The Government have approved the attendance of a delegation at this year's annual conference next month.

I must here refer to statements made in this House during the Budget debate that unemployment has reached record proportions and that over 70,000 people have been unemployed for the whole year. This is entirely inaccurate. It is true that the Live Register reached this figure in one week, namely, the week of the ESB strike, when a number of factories had to close down for want of power. The record was, of course, reached in February, 1957, when the number of unemployed exceeded 95,000. That figure has not been equalled since and I hope that it never will be.

The latest figure for the Live Register is 61,000 and I must confess that it gives cause for concern. The NIEC have recently commented on the unsatisfactory nature of the Live Register as a measure of the numbers available for employment.

Of the 61,000 on the Register, 11,000 are women. The Department has made inquiries into the availability of women for work and some significant facts have emerged in the Dublin area. There are two women's employment exchanges in Dublin; in one married women accounted for 70 per cent of the Live Register while at the other they represented 50 per cent. The great majority of those women were signing for "credits" for Social Welfare purposes and were not seeking employment at all. Ninety per cent of the married women did not want full-time employment and, indeed, the majority of them did not want work of any kind. The reason most frequently given for not wanting work was the demands of the home. A pilot manpower survey in Drogheda revealed that 72 per cent of all women registered at the exchange there were not interested in getting work for the reason that they were looking after their homes.

Employers in the industrial sector in Dublin have reported difficulty in recruiting female staff and, in fact, the placement officers have vacancies notified to them that they are unable to fill. Deputies will see that, at least so far as women registrants are concerned, the Live Register is not at present a true indication of the numbers unemployed and looking for work. A further point that emerged from the Drogheda survey is that the demand by industry for skilled and semi-skilled women and girls is likely to increase over the next few years. The implications of these findings are being studied by the Department.

Last year I appointed a representative committee to examine and make recommendations on the possibility of improving employment opportunities for the disabled in the public service and semi-State bodies. I have received a preliminary report from the committee and I expect a final report in the next few months. Training is probably of greater importance to the disabled than to the able-bodied in seeking employment and An Chomhairle Oiliúna has a statutory responsibility for the provision of training for the disabled. Voluntary bodies are already doing very valuable work in training the physically and mentally handicapped and as An Chomhairle develops there will be close co-operation between the organisations catering for the handicapped and An Chomhairle. When I have received and considered the report of the committee on these problems, I shall make an announcement of any special measures which can be taken to absorb handicapped workers in the public sector.

During the year a Private Members' Bill introduced by Deputy Dunne similar to a British Act on the employment of disabled persons was debated in this House. It was proposed in the Bill that employers should be required to employ a percentage of disabled persons and that certain employments should be reserved for such persons. I sought the views of many of the voluntary and other bodies catering for the disabled and they were almost unanimous in being opposed to compulsion. I was, and I still am, of the view that compulsion is undesirable unless it is clearly demonstrated that the same end cannot be achieved by voluntary means. If, however, it appears that a voluntary system is not giving the desired results, I shall consider the question of legislation. There is, of course, no question of placing disabled persons in jobs to which they are not suited; suitability and capacity to carry out the work are as necessary with the disabled as with the able-bodied.

It has been the policy of successive Governments over the years to discourage emigration and, therefore, to refrain from action to assist or to encourage people to seek employment abroad. Representations have been made to me suggesting that since, as is pointed out in the NIEC Report on Full Employment, certain numbers of our work force must seek jobs abroad in the years until full employment is reached in Ireland, the interests of the persons concerned are deserving of more attention from the community. There has also been some recent publicity about the conditions of employment and the types of work in which young Irish people have been engaged in Great Britain; it has been suggested that some of our young people, because of lack of training or advice before leaving the country, are obliged to take jobs which are beneath their capacity or are otherwise unsuitable; and questions have been asked in the Dáil on the activities of private employment agencies offering to place Irish workers in employment abroad. I am discussing these matters with my colleagues and I would welcome the views of Deputies as to what action, if any, might be appropriate. I may say, from a preliminary study which I have made, that the problems involved appear formidable in the extreme.

As I have referred to our emigrant workers, I might also deal briefly with arrangements about foreign workers who wish to take up employment here. Under the Aliens' Order, 1946, an alien, other than a British or Commonwealth citizen, may not be employed here without a permit. My main concern is to safeguard the employment opportunities of Irish workers. Accordingly, the employer is usually asked to produce evidence that a suitable Irish worker cannot be got and corroboration is sought from the Department's Manpower and Employment Services and by consultation with the Irish Congress of Trade Unions or a professional or other body. Needless to say the evidence may be inconclusive or conflicting but in practice a permit is refused where it is established that a competent Irish worker is available to take up the employment.

There are certain exceptions to this procedure, the principal of which is where a new industry is set up and key foreign workers are required. A more liberal policy is justified here because admission of such workers leads to greater employment of Irish workers. In a few categories, for example, domestic service and certain catering work, permits are granted freely as Irish workers are in short supply. Occasionally individual permits are also issued on humanitarian or hardship grounds.

Before I deal with our present problems in the sphere of industrial relations, and no Deputy will deny that we have problems, I might state, for the record, that 1967 was not a bad year for industrial relations. The number of trade disputes handled by the Labour Court and its conciliation service was, however, higher than in any previous year. The Court issued 131 recommendations of which 123 were accepted by employers and 85 were accepted by workers. We lost about 180,000 man days in strikes compared with about 780,000 in 1966 and 550,000 in 1965. So far this year the available statistics, which do not, incidentally, include the workers in industry laid off due to the ESB strike, indicate that we have lost more man days already than in the whole of 1967. We have had a virtual close down of industry due to the unofficial ESB strike and we have the intractable dispute involving the EI Company in the Shannon Industrial Estate.

The ESB strike was both unofficial and involved breach of the law. Everybody knows that, of itself, an Act of the Oireachtas cannot guarantee electricity supplies. The 1966 Act was based on the hope that Irishmen would observe a law intended to protect the community and that the prosecution of sectional claims would not be carried, in face of such a law, to the point of paralysing the nerve centre of the country. When a group of workers did defy authority and break the law, with the consequences we all saw, the fact that they could justify it on the basis of their own principles could have brought little consolation to anyone, except perhaps to people who are not at all concerned with workers' rights but who are always interested in seeing our economy disrupted and our institutions challenged. I regret to say that my experience in this particular dispute proved to me that there are such people and that while they do not belong to a trade union or workers' organisation, they have been able, in critical situations like the ESB strike, to exploit the loyalty of the worker to his workmates. Unions instructed their members to report for work but these instructions were disobeyed. A formal committee of inquiry has since been launched into industrial relations in the ESB. The purpose of this inquiry is to establish the facts objectively and to make recommendations for a re-casting of procedures which would prevent a similar disruption of electricity supplies in the future.

The dispute at Shannon involves a face to face confrontation between a large externally-financed concern and our largest and most powerful trade union. The rigid attitude of the firm refusing to accept a Labour Court recommendation has been matched by the determined stand of the trade union which has brought the full battery of union weapons to bear on the dispute. I have intervened, exceptionally, in this dispute, and I have had a number of meetings with both parties. I have been working in the hope of being able to convince the company that a successful and profitable operation could be carried on in Ireland without having to go outside our normal management/union practices. I am, of course, particularly concerned to protect the employment of the 1,200 workers concerned.

Our industrial relations moved recently into an era of unofficial disputes, of which the ESB one was the most spectacular and the most damaging. Recent unofficial strikes have shown trade union leadership in certain areas to be unable to retain control in a strike situation. There are signs that the trade union movement is itself aware of the dangers involved in some recent developments. I would encourage them to take action to counter the risks inherent in these developments. I submit to this House that, in the trade union movement as in our society generally, the aim should be disciplined action rather than the idea of absolute unfettered freedom.

There is one matter which causes me some anxiety while to the outsider it may appear not too important. I am conscious that certain officials of the trade union movement continue to make speeches about the Establishment. The effect of these speeches is to divide or attempt to divide the worker from the rest of the community. An example from a journal of one trade union is as follows, and I quote:

We can see the periodical reappearance of all the signs of anti-worker and anti-union attitudes which have long been harboured by the Establishment.

The top men in the trade union movement must know that, to put it at its lowest, this statement is unjust as far as the elected Government of the country and the public service are concerned. Let me say here and now that the Department of Labour exists for the good of the worker. Its purpose is to improve and protect the lot of the workers and if anybody honestly finds it falling short on this task I would invite him to come and visit me and explain his views. As things are, I suggest that bad seed is being sown and co-operation between the Department of Labour and the unions for which I have tried to work since taking over this portfolio, is being undermined. If Irish workers see grounds for the allegations of anti-worker bias they have not shown it at the polls nor does the record of the Government support these easily-made allegations.

It would be wrong and misleading to give any impression to the Dáil that the defects in our industrial relations are all attributable to weaknesses in the trade union movement or to the behaviour of workers. A report of a survey of Irish firms done a few years ago disclosed very serious deficiencies in the personnel management of many of our industries. There is evidence of improvement in this field over the past year, thanks to a growing realisation by management of the importance of good personnel management. However, some cases of mishandling of staff relations leading to tensions and industrial difficulty came to light during the year and it is clear that much more requires to be done before our managements can be said to have attained a satisfactory level of competence in this important area.

In their report on Full Employment the National Industrial Economic Council recommended that there should be inquiries into major industrial disputes, after the disputes had been settled, to discover the reasons why they arose and why they lasted so long. I have already referred to the Committee of Inquiry into Industrial Relations in the ESB. I have also decided that a pilot inquiry, based on the NIEC proposals, should be held into the recent dispute in Bord na Móna and I am making arrangements accordingly.

As the Minister for Finance stressed in his Budget Statement one of the greatest obstacles to a country's development, particularly in the industrial sector, is an unsatisfactory record of production lost through industrial action. A bad international reputation in this field damages existing industry and discourages new ventures. Our hopes for industrial development and employment rest heavily on the prospect of attracting external industrialists to set up factories in Ireland. My experience in the Department of Industry and Commerce brought it home to me that this island is far from being the automatic choice of every world industrialist looking for a location for his enterprise. The Industrial Development Authority and the Shannon Free Airport Development Company have to compete for new industries with other countries which are offering a wide range of inducements. If, because we cannot settle our industrial disputes in a civilised and orderly manner, we fail to get these people to come here and stay here then we shall stand deservedly condemned before those of our people who look to us for the opportunity of making a living in their own country.

There is therefore a heavy responsibility on employers, trade unions and on everyone concerned in industrial relations to help in restoring and maintaining industrial peace. I am constantly looking out for ways of improving the facilities and procedures available to the parties to negotiations on pay and conditions so as to ensure that the official service is first-class. If Deputies have complaints to make or suggestions to offer, I shall consider them most earnestly.

The year 1967 was a year in which there was no general increase in wages and salary rates. Nevertheless, total employee income in the year was up by 8 per cent on 1966. Thas was partly accounted for by the fact that the tenth round—the £1 a week—generally came into effect from about the middle of 1966. Despite the absence of general increases in rates in 1967, wage costs increased substantially due to the widespread grant of service pay, reduced hours and longer holidays. Average industrial earnings in September, 1967, were nearly 4 per cent higher than in September, 1966, and the increase for the December quarter was over 5 per cent.

Since the latter part of 1967, a series of individual agreements involving substantial pay increases has been negotiated affecting workers in many industries and firms and this process is now spreading to the bulk of industrial employment. The pay increases granted under these agreements have followed no uniform pattern but the most common formula has been three increases spread over 1968 and 1969 with the total increase for the two years for men ranging from about 30/- to 40/-a week, and correspondingly lower increases for women and juveniles. Some agreements provide for extra leave, shorter hours and other improvements and a number of agreements also contain provisions about productivity.

From the point of view of the economy, there are two favourable aspects of the current approach to the wage situation. First, the increases are being given on a phased basis rather than in one large award. The spreading of the increase over a period eases the impact on industrial costs and is in line with a recommendation by the NIEC. Secondly, the industry-by-industry or firm-by-firm approach has the merit that the economic situation of the particular firm or industry can be given some weight in the negotiations.

There is also a greater possibility that productivity considerations can be introduced into the negotiations. It must be said, however, that, in practice, an individual industry or firm cannot isolate itself in pay matters. Comparisons with other employments are a prominent feature of negotiations, and where there is a general movement in pay and conditions, workers in weaker firms or in employments in which productivity cannot readily be improved are not likely to be content with increases substantially less than those gained by their fellow workers. It is essential for growth, therefore, that the standard of pay increases generally should not be bases on what can be afforded by the most successful firms in the fastest growing sector of the economy, i.e. manufacturing industry.

It is clear that the results of the pay adjustments which are now in full swing will involve extra payments in 1968 very much in excess of the increase—4 per cent to 4½ per cent— which is predicted for national production this year. The pay increases provided for in most of the 2-year agreements are, in percentage terms, in the 10 per cent to 20 per cent range, with the greater part of the increase coming in 1968. Allowance must also be made for the impact in 1968 of agreements negotiated in 1966 and 1967, and still being negotiated in some industries, for reduced hours of work, additional holidays, service pay, and so on.

It looks now that by the end of this year average industrial earnings will be running at a level which will be at least 10 per cent higher than they were at the end of 1967, with a further substantial increase again in 1969. This increase is a serious threat to our international competitiveness and consequently to our employment position. In Britain, which is our main competitor and our main export market, the Government is seeking to contain pay increases within a ceiling of 3½ per cent, with limited exceptions where stringent conditions, mainly based on productivity, are fulfilled. The British Government's policy is to be backed by statutory power to defer or suspend increases in wages or salaries for periods of up to 12 months.

So far, the pay negotiations have been concentrated mainly in the industrial sector but claims for comparable increases in other employments, such as the Government service, State-sponsored bodies and other non-industrial employment, are now being put forward. Any attempt to bid up further the pattern of pay settlements in respect of these claims could have disastrous results for the economy. Our competitive position is already in grave peril and any claims which would increase this danger should be moderated.

The most worrying features of the national economic situation at the present time are the failure of employment to increase and the growth in unemployment. The key to increased employment and to reduction of involuntary emigration is industrial development. Industrial development depends almost entirely on increased exports and such exports can, in turn, be achieved only if production costs are competitive. The recent increase in the Live Register is a salutary statistic, when we consider the growth in the economy in 1967 and the prospects for 1968. If the numbers of unemployed and of emigrants are to be brought down expectations will have to be brought closer to reality and there must be a more sensible attitude to claims which inflate industrial costs and so threaten to put people out of work.

The Review of the Second Programme published before the Budget showed that, over the past four years, the economy grew at an average rate of 3 per cent a year but that disposable incomes were pushed up by 7½ per cent a year on average. In other words, for every pound's worth extra produced, we paid ourselves £2 10s. It may be taken that if we had been more moderate in our income demands in these years, we would now have more exports, a higher level of employment, less emigration and greater overall national prosperity than we have, in fact, achieved.

The position as to wage levels in employment in Irish industry has, for all practical purposes, now been determined up to the end of 1969. I would suggest that the best ways of avoiding further deterioration in a potentially dangerous situation are as follows. First, the remaining stages in the current series of pay adjustments should be carried out in such a way that there is no escalation on pay awards; second, agreements which have already been negotiated should be scrupulously observed for their duration by both sides; third, the campaign for higher productivity must be stepped up; and fourth, we must, between now and the end of 1969, renew efforts to get the concept implemented, which everyone seems to accept in principle but ignore in practice, that increases in incomes should be kept in line with increases in national production. By co-operating in measures to raise productivity and make industries competitive, workers will make a real contribution to the expansion of production and exports, and thus to the creation of new jobs in Irish industry.

The aim of raising the pay of lower paid workers has recently figured very much in trade union pronouncements. There is no evidence, however, that this worthy aim has been given any real support in the current series of wage settlements; indeed, trade union strength in organisation and bargaining position has been used to secure the best possible increases for those already relatively well paid, without any special regard for the lower paid workers. The Government would be only too glad to co-operate in any move to raise the pay and improve the conditions of lower-paid workers, but there must be acceptance that additional resources can only be given to the lower-paid workers if they are diverted from the better off sections of the community, including the better paid workers, and that, in particular, improvements given to the lower-paid will not be used by the better-paid to support claims for corresponding increases for themselves so that, in the language of the wage differentials, they can "keep their distance."

I said earlier that some of the current series of pay settlements contained clauses about productivity. Unfortunately, many of these so called productivity agreements did little more than make a nod in the general direction of productivity. Productivity is far too vital to be dealt with in this way. If we are to make up the ground we have lost in competitiveness, measures to raise productivity must be pursued tenaciously. If any reasonable base is to be laid for further pay increases after 1969 spectacular increases in productivity must be obtained. 1968 is National Productivity Year and must result in a great upsurge in productivity consciousness and in practical measures to raise productivity. My Department will seek to make an effective contribution and I intend to carry out a comprehensive examination of the measures the Department and their agencies can take to assist in the drive to increase productivity.

I want to stress again the link between excessive increases in incomes and rising unemployment and emigration. The lesson about excessive income increases should have been driven home by the set-backs our economy experienced in past years. Can anyone examining the outcome of the present series of pay claims say that we have learned this lesson? Have we even made a start towards the radical change in outlook which is essential if we are to progress along the road towards full employment?

I want to put it to the Dáil that the community has a choice in this matter and that we all have a national responsibility to explain what the options are, namely, a choice between increased employment with modest but regular increases in incomes, and, on the other hand, employment for smaller numbers at higher rates of pay, with the surplus workers swelling the unemployed list or emigrating. It is not enough to declare ourselves, even by formal resolution, in favour of more jobs at home: these will not become a reality until those engaged in making settlements learn to see the consequences for the community of excessive income increases, and resolve to act accordingly.

It is, of course, a weakness in our system of industrial relations and free collective bargaining that in industrial disputes and wage negotiations the interests which predominate are those of workers already in employment and of employers already well established in business. Normally, the pace-setters are those workers or employers who have sufficient strength to survive a conflict. Many who are adversely affected by the results of the process have no say in the outcome. These include workers whose prospects of holding a job or of getting a job depend upon our ability to continue to develop and export in a competitive world. Among them I would count those in marginally economic enterprises, the unemployed, the school leavers, the handicapped waiting to be placed, the breadwinners in England, and those who want to apply their resources of capital and skill to start up or expand enterprises here.

If order cannot be restored in our industrial relations and if restraint and consideration for others are not shown in negotiations and in other aspects of industrial behaviour—and I am bound to tell the Dáil that we are still far from the necessary degree of order or restraint—then the hopes of the community for more jobs for Irish workers in Ireland, for a gradual reduction in emigration and ultimately for full employment, cannot be realised in our time. The Dáil may take it that there is no shortage of solutions that could be proposed for our industrial relations and incomes problems on the basis of suspending free collective bargaining and setting aside various democratic principles.

Our task, however, is to evolve solutions while still preserving what the Irish people regard as basic democratic freedoms. This is a task which calls for co-operation and understanding of a high order. And it must be tackled and completed soon or it will be too late.

For myself, I should like to tell the Dáil that, despite the depressing and discouraging developments of the recent past, I still cling to the hope that our people, on realising what the inevitable consequences of present trends will be, will respond by voluntarily making the required changes in attitudes and practices and so facilitate an expansion of productive activity and employment in Ireland. It is in that confident expectation that I have instructed my Department to plan and work for a steady and orderly growth in the services provided under this Vote.

At page 22 of his statement, the Minister was able to say that there were 95,000 unemployed in 1957. We had the same thing from the Minister for Local Government earlier today. I should like to point out that at the moment there are 34,000 fewer in employment than there were in 1957. Right through his statement, the Minister chastised the unions and the employers, in effect telling them what to do. Not once, however, did he chastise the Government, who are responsible for the present demands for wages: it is the Government who have created this inflationary tendency during the years and the last Budget was one of the main factors in it.

The ambition of everybody in Ireland—of workers, unions, employers and the Government alike—is to provide conditions of work for all in a country successful in world business. To achieve this, we must all work at it. To date we have had White Papers giving lip service and several resolutions from the Government towards this end, but unemployment is still at the 60,000 level, as it was 30 years ago. We have a stagnant pool of unemployment, we have a steady flow of emigration, we have a continuous reduction in population. We are unique in western Europe in this sense.

To put it bluntly, the efforts of trade unions, employers and the Government have left us basically in the same position as we were 30 years ago. The Government must take most of the blame for this because they are responsible for regulating the country and the country's economy. Unions and employers, as groups and as individuals, must take stock of themselves if we are to have a future in the Free Trade Area with Britain and later in the EEC. Not alone shall we have to become sufficiently competitive to secure new markets and to retain those which we have, but we must also gear ourselves to retain those markets we already have at home, in the face of outside competition. This competition from outside will go very sharply against us in free trade conditions.

The Minister said he would have to introduce some new method to replace collective bargaining. Collective bargaining is the only way we know to get wage agreements. Good industrial relations can only endure in an atmosphere of co-operation, not in one of coercion. Any Government, here or anywhere else, which bring in legislation to tell the workers or the employers to fix at a certain line, are leading to dictatorship and eventually to revolution because no Minister, no matter who he is—he may be a businessman in one particular business of which he has intimate knowledge—can say he has intimate knowledge of the hundreds of thousands of business throughout the country. Neither have civil servants such knowledge. The only people who have it are the workers and the unions who are dealing with it every day of the week, and the employers.

The Minister told us about strikes and what the unions must do. He told us that between 1964 and 1966, 1¼ million man hours were lost through strikes. This was composed mainly of figures in respect of CIE, Bord na Móna, I think the ESB, and the banks. Three of these are semi-State bodies. It was there that all the hours were lost. In the private employment sector practically no hours were lost. Surely the Government should give the lead. The directors of these semi-State bodies are picked by Ministers in Fianna Fáil. I say they are picked by way of patronage granted by Fianna Fáil. The best men are not picked for these jobs. In most businesses, trade unions and employers meet when there is a trade dispute in the offing. Surely it would be much better and more constructive both for the unions and the employers if they were to meet twice yearly to discuss job security, productivity and how best business methods could be improved? If these meetings were held, it would create a better atmosphere between both sides and would prevent many of the strikes that are looming in the future. Each side would get to know the other's difficulties.

I am glad to see that he suggests that when a strike occurs, there should be a post mortem and what actually caused the strike should be gone into in order to see whether something could be found out or fixed to ensure that a similar strike could be avoided in the future. Winds of change have blown throughout the entire world and governments, employers and unions must keep pace with the changing times. No one can mark time. One either goes forward or backward. Unions will be involved in and will play an active part in the rapid changes that will take place when we join the EEC. Groups of smaller unions in the city will have to take a leaf out of the book of the ICTU who in the main have picked and employed experts conversant with every aspect of business life to advise them. The more familiar they are with the barometer of business the better chance they will have in pressing wage or conditions demands and if conditions are bad at the time, they can restrain their members from pushing at that particular time. The unions must also remember that the union member of today is much better educated than the member in the past and he is looking for a lot more services and information from the union.

In the Minister's speech last year at Volume 226, column 1430 he said:

Attempts to generate a higher level of production and employment, or even to retain the existing level, will be frustrated if we have to suffer the interruptions of strikes like those of the past few years. Stoppages because of strikes are also a deterrent to investment in Ireland.

This has been said again in this year's statement. The Minister, right through this year's and last year's statement, blames collective bargaining and the unions for pushing ahead for wage increases. I would like to remind him that the union officials only push when the body as a whole vote for it and the union official is not working for the Minister. At no stage has a union official pushed for a strike, nor the members, because most of the members nowadays are involved in hire purchase of a car or something else or repayments on a house. The Minister intimated that trade unions and employers are taking too big a slice of the cake. The cake is being cut in three-quarters and one-quarter, and the three-quarters are going to the Government and the one-quarter to the remainder of the people. The spending power of the worker has been minimised last year by increased taxation and increases in the price of cigarettes and beer. There are very few households where either the husband or the wife does not smoke or take a drink. If they do not, they go to the pictures and that has gone up too in the past 12 months. Bus fares have gone up, ESB charges, rates, petrol valuation increased by 4 per cent and no increase in personal allowances or children's allowances.

The figures I am about to quote are not correct. I do not know how one could get the exact figures but if one takes as an example a cross-section of 100 members of a trade union, of different ages, some of them married quite a while and others just married you will get 40 out of the 100 who have been left a house by their parents or who purchased one ten to 12 years ago. Their repayments are £2 a week. These people will vote against a strike because they are quite comfortable and are not very much interested in pushing for an increase in wages. If an increase is granted, they are in clover and living very well. Then there are 20 just out of their apprenticeship, single, who have not yet decided that this job will be their future. If they are at a trade union meeting and are asked what they will do, they will vote for a strike because at this stage it does not worry them a whole lot. They have no commitments. Maybe in three years time they will have commitments but at the moment they will vote for a strike. When you come to the other 40 people, you find that they bought houses in the past five years and are paying anything from £4 to £7 per week repayments. These people want money very badly and they will push to get it but they do not want a strike. They want to push to get the last shilling; they have to get it because they cannot afford to live. Surely the Minister could see the Minister for Local Government and suggest to him that these people ought to get a rebate for ten years on their repayments on a house? If this were to happen, you would not have this 40 per cent pushing for the zenith in a wage demand.

As an accompaniment to this—and this is something that I think is very bad with Irish employers and something we would want to get out of, because basically I suppose we are all selfish—a man who starts a business and reaches the income he set out to make, say, a figure of £5,000, he then decides he has enough for his family and himself and is pushing no further. He does not want to re-invest money in this business and he does not want to take any more chances. Every man who is working for him now is in a dead-end job. His employees may be married men who have worked for him for ten years. They do not want to go to another firm because they are senior men in this one and they will be juniors in a new firm but there is no future for them in this one.

I would like to tell the Minister that it has been my experience in negotiations with unions and discussions with the officials afterwards that there is a section who want to go on strike, another section who do not and another section who are easy. This has been the experience all over Dublin. If you take people in Drumcondra who have been left houses, they are paying nothing back except the rates and a few other items. Then go to a new area like Coolock where they are paying £5 to £7 per week. You have both those people working in the same job. I would like a system that would abolish the local government grant altogether. It is outdated. It was brought in in 1948 when houses were about £1,700. A similar house now is £4,000 or £4,200. This grant should be abolished completely and a reduction in repayments per week granted to everybody as each child arrives. When a couple get married and get a house, they can live, but when the family arrives, they are in difficulty. If the Government were to subsidise at that stage for a period of ten years, 12 years, 13 years, or whatever it may be, you would do a great day's work and the executive of the unions would not be pressed half as much and we in this country would have a cheaper rate of wages and more people would be happier.

The Redundancy Bill is to me an extension of the unemployment payment. It is better than nothing. It gives a young worker a chance to look around and get a job and at least it pays his passage abroad if he wants to emigrate. However, when a man becomes redundant at 58 to 65 years of age and goes on redundancy payment, if the Minister and his Government are honest they will know that the chance of retraining that man is nil and that he is not going to be retrained. What firm coming in from England, or anywhere else you like, will employ this man at 58 years of age when they know that in four or five years time he will be getting that bit older, his eyesight may be going, and they are not likely to employ him when they can employ a man who is not long left school. They will employ men of 30 to 40 years of age who become redundant. The man of 58 to 65 years of age has got absolutely no chance of retraining.

There was a case in Cork which I saw on television concerning a man of 62 years of age. When he asked the man in charge of retraining about this he could not answer him. We know when a man reaches 58 or 62 years he has no chance of a job and will not get it because of the number of younger men who are unemployed because of redundancy. First of all, the Government would have to pay the cost of retraining him and there would be no job for him at all. Surely the State could in a particular case like that give a pension of a fixed amount or they could pay a certain sum to a firm, who may have come from abroad, so that the man could be retrained. At the moment if a person becomes redundant at 54 years of age and upwards he has no chance of a job.

With regard to factory inspectors, I think the Minister promised six last year and I think he got three. I should like to see more of them. At the moment if you take a building firm in this country who agree with their men that the overtime is a flat rate this firm can come in and they will pay a normal rate plus 1¼, 1½ or double time if it goes on for a particular time. The same thing applies in regard to factories. If this is not controlled in regard to safety-first regulations you will get a man cutting his price and bypassing the safety-first regulations. You will get contractors bidding and taking any risk. They will risk the lives of their workers so that they can do the job at a cheaper rate. I would recommend that a lot of money should be spent on this and to increase the number of inspectors which the Minister suggested last year.

As far as I know, he has got three but I think it should be increased to 12 if required. I would, quite honestly, legislate on this.

We know that Government inflation throughout the past couple of years has meant that there were increased charges for workers but the employers also had to face increased charges on rates, the ESB, CIE charges, petrol costs and many other increases. I suggest if all the land in this country was serviced it would be half the price. Surely the Minister should be pointing his finger at his fellow Ministers in Government and not dictating to the unions and the employers. He tells them what to do but the first thing he should do is put his own house in order.

Inflation and the different increases have brought about a demand for wage increases. I suggest that management should be of the best and should give a good example. If management is good and gives good example it will secure productivity and co-operation from the employees. A worker respects a manager who knows his job and when the manager tells him to do something the worker knows that he understands what he is telling him to do. If a man is pushed into any job because he is a friend of somebody this causes resentment among other workers. I should like to remind employers that the day of master and servant of Victorian times is gone.

Employers must realise that the greatest asset a country has is its workers. I would suggest that legislation be brought in immediately, or as soon as possible, particularly in regard to the larger companies and in regard to the State companies, so that a committee of workers be elected from the floor of the factory, from CIE or whatever it may be, and that they should be enabled by this legislation to meet the management of that business, let it be the manager, the owner or the chairman of the company. I do not mean that a messenger be sent with communications from management to workers. I mean that the workers should be able to speak to management. Workers could make a trestand mendous contribution here and they could also derive tremendous benefit from it.

Workers through a co-operative council, or whatever you would like to call it, would get to know their future prospects in the business. In actual fact, they would get to know everything about the business and the safety-first council. They would know everything in the business except business secrets. For instance, if a firm like Arnotts were going to buy another business tomorrow they could not be expected to let the workers know about this in case everybody would know about it too soon.

A co-operative council in my opinion would be the proper machinery to direct productivity incentives and if this council were a success, which I think it would be, it could very often give a man who is a big owner, and has become so mainly through his ability to work, the chance to know everything about his business. When such a man has got sufficient money to start a business he then employs accountants, solicitors, stockbrokers and they can advise him. This man, who has great ability as a worker, could be on a workers' council and might know more about the business than the manager of that business. If owners of companies set up such co-operative councils I think this would be the first step to greater productivity because it would be a step towards profit-sharing. If you have profit-sharing the workers is working for himself. Unless you get some stepping-stone to this you will never get nearer to getting proper productivity because workers will feel that they have little chance of getting anything out of the business. Unless you start this on a stepping-stone basis it will not succeed.

I referred to big firms rather than small firms in regard to this. My reason for this is that in the bigger firms management get away from the workers on the floor, whereas in smaller businesses the owner and the workers often go out for a drink and discuss what has happened during the day, or in a slack period they can talk about what way the business would improve.

That knowledge can be of great advantage to management. Workers can put their case to management and explain their difficulties. There should be legislation for all business if possible but it is not as necessary in small businesses as it is in big business.

One other thing is that the big gap that exists between management and workers is caused by employers and trade unions. Management have a habit of remembering a bad worker, not a good one. On the other side, the workers will discuss a bad employer and the good one will only get a passing reference. The unions when looking for a wage increase often turn a blind eye to the employer, or employers, who have given supplementary benefits. Again, the worst men are directed at the bad employer and the good employer even though he is giving side benefits must employ the lot. Whether he likes it or not he has to give 2/-extra when he might be giving £1 a week in benefits.

There are some good things in the Minister's statement. At least the Government are trying to do something. Still, it is only a white paper. It is not black anyway though it has not improved anything. The Minister has criticised unions and negotiations between unions and employers as the cause of all our trouble. In my business if I am looking for a man I advertise in the newspaper. I interview people and reduce the number to six from which I choose a man. I do not ask his religion or his politics. I am not interested. I am looking for the best man, and he could be in a Fianna Fáil cumann for all I care.

He might not be any good.

Some of them are good anyway. In my opinion, a bad man does not deserve the same money as a good man. How are the unions to get over that—a good man used as a jumping-off ground for the bad man? If the Minister is serious about procuring the help of management, employers, companies and workers, and getting their co-operation, he and his Party will have to stop appointing political helpers and supporters to semi-State bodies, or at least giving them preferential treatment. The Minister and his Party must abolish political preference no matter what money they may lose on it. If this is not done the worker will suffer. It is who you know and not what you know that counts. If there is a job going ability does not count. Unless that attitude is changed neither the worker nor the employer will bother and if this continues the Minister had better pack it up. There is no future for the good man; it is only the person you know. I should like to remind the Minister that there is a semi-State body where relationships between management and workers are the worst in the country. It is run by supporters of the Fianna Fáil Government.

From listening to the Minister's speech, and, indeed, from having had the opportunity of reading it, one would imagine that the Minister was simply writing out a report, something that was required and that he had no responsibility in the matter. In his speech the Minister adverted to a number of things which are in train in his Department. He has obviously neglected to give solutions, or suggested solutions, to some of the problems which he has highlighted.

What the Minister appears boastful about in his Estimate speech can only be accepted where Fianna Fáil come into power. Are they not in the position of having been in power for so long and is it not only now they have come to realise that they have to get on with it and give the necessary impetus to the Minister's Department?

In his speech the Minister also adverted to the all-important matter of an employment placement service. He refers to this in page 4 of his speech and makes the point that there is enough evidence to show that a massive amount of work is to be done in the field of training. In regard to the employment and placement service he said that this matter is to be dealt with in two stages. He makes the great announcement that he has engaged the services of seven placement officers, four in Dublin, one in Waterford and one in Galway. He has failed to indicate what will the function of these officers be, what services will be available and when will there be renovation of the places where these people work. Might I ask what attempts are being made by the Minister's Department by way of affording these placement officers an opportunity of being able to tackle this important job of placement in employment? There are ways and means of doing this, but answering a newspaper advertisement for a placement officer and winning the job will not suffice. I have not heard from the Minister that any of these appointed will be afforded an opportunity of looking at this as it exists in practice elsewhere and how it is dealt with. There is no use in putting a man into a job unless he is given in the first instance a familiarisation course in the matter.

The Minister has not yet used his powers of persuasion with his colleague in the Department of Education with regard to the great need for doing something in the initial stages of employment guidance. This job should be tackled in the first instance in the schools and we can go on from there.

The Minister has adverted to the situation that exists in connection with displacement benefits which are bound to arise as well as unemployed persons' willingness or unwillingness to accept them. Are the people of the employment exchange to realise what their exact function is in this connection? The Minister's immediate advisers should have a look at the employment exchanges and see how they function and see the great need there is for bringing about an understanding in this important matter.

The Minister said in connection with this whole scheme of things that he was hoping to employ an industrial psychologist and that it had become necessary for the Civil Service Commission to advertise twice. One of the principal reasons for the Minister's inability to fill such an important post is the remuneration offered. This is a situation that prevails in many important jobs where the Government find it necessary to advertise for the various Departments.

The Minister has a short paragraph in his speech in relation to manpower forecasting. We must have regard to the situation at the moment. One can only express disappointment in connection with it. The Minister has neglected to indicate what exactly the situation will be. We all know that the guessing or forecasting indulged in by Fianna Fáil Governments in the past proved to be hopelessly incorrect. Perhaps this is the reason why the Minister neglected to deal with this important matter in his introductory statement.

The Minister referred to careers information. The people who set about formulating information in connection with employment careers have done a very good job. They have produced very attractive and useful information in connection with various types of employment, for which they are to be commended. I am hoping that the work will not be nullified. It is all very well to produce information about various careers but it is another thing to be in a position to indicate where employment in these careers is available.

We realise that employment has diminished. I say that despite the attempt the Minister has made to show that the figures which have been adverted to are not correct. Every week we get reports that indicate clearly and distinctly that unemployment figures are going up all the time. No matter how the Minister and his colleagues may seek to manipulate the figures, the fact remains that the number of persons unemployed on this date as compared with the same date last year has increased.

The Minister rightly complimented the press, TV and others concerned in publicity with regard to the Redumdancy Payments Act, particularly in informing the persons concerned as to how benefits can be obtained. I do not propose to explain the reason for it but there is still a considerable number of persons who are not conscious of their entitlements in that matter. I am well aware of the excellent booklets issued on this subject but I wonder if the Minister could not arrange that some official of his Department would make contact with employees when redundancy is announced in their place of employment with a view to informing them of the service which is available to them. There is no use in putting this task on the shoulders of the trade union movement because, unfortunately, all workers are not organised.

In referring to redundancy payments the Minister spoke of two classes of employees whose general pattern of employment might welcome special schemes. He indicated that attempts had been made to produce special schemes for these two classes—dock workers and building workers. There are other classes of workers who are similarly affected. I worry when I find the Minister referring to only two classes because I know of other classes equally big in number who apparently have escaped the attention of the Minister and his Department. The Minister has said that pending the introduction of a special scheme in respect of the two classes to whom he has referred the workers concerned will lose nothing because they can fall back on the main scheme. I would join issue with the Minister on this. The factor that makes the two classes special is the very nature of their work and the break in continuity in their employment. I am extremely anxious to ascertain if the Minister is making any special provision because it is not enough to say that they can fall back on the main scheme. That does not answer the situation.

The Minister dealt with the safety, health and welfare of workers. At page 8 of his brief he said:

I must report the continued failure of workers in industry generally to avail themselves of their rights under section 73 of the Factories Act to set up safety committees.

I am sure the Minister knows—if he does not he ought to get in touch with some of his people who are nearer to the ground, and they will tell him— that very few persons are familiar with the various sections of the Factories Act. I have said on other occasions, and I repeat, that it is extremely unfair to leave the onus of setting up safety committees to the workers. The Minister has been enjoined more than once to provide that safety committees shall be set up and not to leave the onus on workers. As has been explained on more than one occasion to the Minister, there are situations where trade unions do not function in places of employment and where workers hesitate to ask for things other than safety committees to be set up. One could picture the situation in such a place of employment. The Minister rightly stresses the need for safety committees but I submit that he should go through with this and have these committees set up and get away from the idea of putting the onus on the workers. The employer has a responsibility in this matter and in the final analysis it is the Minister's responsibility.

The Minister talked about a review of protective legislation and referred to the meeting he has had with the Irish Congress of Trade Unions. He spoke about the number of gaps that there are in our protective legislation. We have noticed that there are a number of gaps. I am just wondering what the Minister meant by "gaps in our protective legislation".

We all realise that the unemployment figures would be much higher if a proper record were kept of unemployed persons. There are juveniles who leave school and go to work. Due to economic circumstances, they cannot continue their education. There is no record kept of these persons unless they go to the employment exchange. Every child who goes to work does not make his way to the employment exchange. If these juveniles were counted it would be found that there are some thousands of them who are unemployed and seeking work. If the Minister is to go ahead with this scheme in connection with employment and placement services he will have to set about registering juveniles from the time they leave school. I know that the Juvenile Advisory Committee in Dublin has been crying out for such a situation to be brought about for a number of years and successive Ministers have failed to do anything about it.

The Minister also talked about the aliens' employment permits and explained the situation in such a way that one would imagine that the situation was that when an employer sought to employ an alien he would apply to the Department and the Department in turn would ask the Irish Congress of Trade Unions for their views and if Congress expressed the view that the employment permit should not be given, that was the end of it. That is not so. There have been quite a number of cases where employment permits have been given to aliens in various parts of the country despite the protestations of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions or of any union. It has not always been a case of no Irish worker being available for the employment. Furthermore, in the matter of the employment of aliens we should be a little more particular. My understanding was that where aliens were brought in it would be to teach, instruct, pass on their knowledge to our people and as soon as that was done out they would go. That was supposed to be the position. There is quite a number of them who have feathered their nests in this country and have done very well. It has been mentioned already that some of them are quite close to Taca. If we check on that, we find it to be correct. There is no reason in the world why we should be so patronising towards these people. They are useful in many ways but why do they not get the same treatment as our people get when they go to the continent of Europe? The police there are on their tail immediately they land if they set about taking up employment. You are told in this country that that is a matter for the Department of Justice and they say it is a matter for the Department of Labour, sending people around from Billy to Jack.

The Minister talked about industrial disputes. He referred to the ESB strike and to the fact that it was unofficial and called it a breach of the law. But the Minister well knows that this is a law not looked upon with any great love by the trade union movement. When the Minister talked about the ESB he should admit the great need to bring about a proper system of industrial relations within the ESB. I know from personal experience that there is great need for improvement in the industrial relations of the ESB and, indeed, of Bord na Móna and many other State and semi-State concerns. This is the way to tackle the job and not have a situation where you have people speaking on behalf of a board to trade union officials, but these people are unable to go along with any suggestion which might be made by a mediator. They say: "We will have to see our Board." The trade union officials are never afforded an opportunity of meeting this board, who sit in the background and determine without full knowledge of what is going on how far they are going to go. As long as you have that situation you will have industrial unrest in the ESB, Bord no Móna or elsewhere.

The Minister also referred to the EI dispute at Shannon and talked about the two forces that have joined issue over this dispute. He acknowledged the fact that the employers' side had refused to accept a Labour Court recommendation, but there are many other things they refused to accept also. What worries me and many other people is: when will the Minister and his colleagues bring about the situation that people like the EI company will not be given State money unless there is a distinct understanding that they recognise the laws of our land and the manner in which we operate? Why should such people be induced to come to this country? This, I submit, is a responsibility of the Minister—and this particular dispute is on the Minister's own doorstep.

A very significant thing has happened in this dispute. The company would appear not only favoured by getting monetary inducements but favoured by being given facilities, as already mentioned in the House, which other industries have not got. What is so special about these people that they are given these facilities? Furthermore, we have the situation whereby the company is afforded the protection of the police to break the law day after day, but dare any workers do it? Police protection is given to the EI company to run lorries through the State and into the Six Counties. Such lorries have been untaxed. Had this happened with any ordinary citizen they would not get a hundred yards. The people in pursuit of these lorries—in lawful pursuit of them under the Trade Disputes Act— have been stopped by the police from following them. That is not impartiality. That is undoubted favouritism. Protests have been made to put a stop to this but nothing has been done. No later than last Monday morning people who found it necessary to follow a lorry from Shannon right up to Newry were followed by the police. That is all right to ensure that the law is not broken, but on two occasions the police stopped not the lorry but the workers following it. On two occasions they delayed them deliberately to stop them from following that lorry, which they were entitled to do under the Trade Disputes Act.

This is the situation the Minister must know exists and about which nothing is being done. Nothing is being done about the billeting of police in the homes of people who are blacklegs at the EI factory when billets could be obtained elsewhere. All we can expect in a trade dispute is impartiality, nothing else. We do not expect the police to interfere one way or another. I was talking to some of the strikers this morning and they told me that they got more understanding from the Six County police than they did from some of our own. It is accepted that the police in County Louth acted properly, but not the boys operating in Dublin last Monday morning who were told what to do.

I could go on for a long time and give many instances of nefarious acts conducted under the nose of the authorities on behalf of EI and nothing done about them. In the first fortnight of the strike two young boys were charged and it was alleged that they threw a stone at a bus. These people were from the Minister's own constituency. The Minister is entitled to give us lectures on industrial relations but, at the same time, it is incumbent on him to ensure that there will be no more EI disputes. There will not be any more EI disputes if the Government change their policy from one of giving carte blanche to foreign industrialists who feel they can come in here and operate as if they were operating in some South American country.

It is well known that this country has built up a creditable trade union organisation and that the people here recognise trade union organisations. It is a bit much if the Minister and his colleagues neglect to advert to that important matter when industrialists seek to come here. It is wrong if the impression is given that when trade unions hold out for what is their entitlement—the right to negotiate wages and conditions—they are not behaving properly and are preventing industry from coming here. I am certain I speak for the majority of trade unionists when I say that if that is the type of industrialist this Government aspire to bring in here, they can keep them.

In the course of his speech also the Minister referred to statements that have been made by responsible trade union officials in respect of the Establishment and he saw fit to quote from the Trade Union Journal. He said:

We can see the periodical reappearance of all the signs of anti-worker and anti-union attitudes which have long been harboured by the Establishment.

The Minister himself went on to say:

The top men in the trade union movement must know that, to put it at its lowest, this statement is unjust as far as the elected Government of the country and the public service are concerned.

The Minister obviously does not want to know, or he wants to forget, that the finger can be pointed at his own Government Departments. Surely the Minister is conscious of the thousands of lowly paid workers, and people working in poor conditions, in the various Government Departments. The Minister talks about setting an example, and tells people how to behave, and not to create an attitude between the workers and bosses. Surely he could induce his colleagues to set the headline, starting off in the Department of Local Government, the Department of Lands, the Department of Health and the Department of Defence. He will find that low wages prevail in all those Departments.

The Minister talked about people who find it necessary to speak against the Establishment as if that were a crime. He suggested that the spokesman to whom he referred should explain his point of view. Surely the Minister does not have to wait until his Estimate speech to make that suggestion. A simple little letter would do all that was necessary if the Minister wanted to have a showdown or an off-the-record talk. On behalf of the Executive of the ITGWU members of that organisation asked the Minister's colleague, the Minister for Finance, to meet them and talk about important matters affecting working-class people, and they were refused. Yet we find the Minister for Labour saying he would like this anonymous man to go to see him. If I know the man to whom he is referring—and I suspect I do—he has explained his point-of-view more than once. Let us hope the Minister will be taken up on that invitation. Let us hope if he is taken up on that invitation it will receive the same publicity as the Minister will receive. An exchange of views is always good. I believe in talking and maintaining talks going for as long as possible.

I was very disappointed that the Minister made no reference to the suggested improvements in the conciliation machinary of the Labour Court. The Labour Court played a very useful part in the industrial life of this country, but I hold that it could play an even more important part if it were properly geared. The Minister knows that there is an insufficient number of conciliation officers. I wonder does the Minister intend not only to increase the number of conciliation officers but to give them an opportunity of keeping pace with changes in negotiating techniques.

The Minister spoke about wage-rounds and trends of wages, salaries and conditions. Again, he was like the hurler on the ditch. He made the comment and let it go. For example, the Minister has a conciliation service in his Department. To what extent have the conciliation officers been briefed or required to make suggestions of the kind which the Minister would like to advocate? It is not sufficient for the Minister to make warning sounds about negotiations and to give admonitions. He suggested that sufficient recognition was not given to the important matter of productivity. Where do his minions play their part in that matter? To what extent has it been brought home to the working-class people that they need have no great fears about productivity, and that by increasing productivity they will not work themselves out of a job? Surely it is incumbent on the Minister to do something about that matter.

There has been a failure on the part of the Minister's Department. There has been a failure on the part of the Department of Finance in the preparation of programmes. Very little trust can be placed in the speculations of Ministers and the people who provide them with information. In his speech the Minister said:

The Government would be only too glad to co-operate in any move to raise the pay and improve the conditions of lower-paid workers...

I take it that as of now the Minister will make immediate arrangements for the types of workers to whom I referred in Government Departments: forestry workers, hospital workers and other workers; and that their wages will be brought up, in order to set an example and show the private employers what should be done in a matter of this kind. The Minister deplores the fact that sufficient progress has not been made. I suggest that he is merely paying lip-service in this regard unless he proves otherwise conclusively. He should arrange that his colleagues will be more receptive to the suggestions which are made to them from time to time.

For a number of years now various trade unions which come within the ambit of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions have been attempting to set up proper negotiating machinery for non-nursing personnel. For some reasons the County and City Managers' Association have collectively refused to meet the trade union representatives. Individually they meet them and say: "we cannot do anything about this application until we see what they will do in the next county." This goes on, on the Minister's own doorstep. What has he done about it? It is the same in many other types of employment. This is something which is crying out for attention. Perhaps with regard to matters of this kind the Minister is not on speaking terms with the Minister for Local Government, the Minister for Health or the Minister for Lands.

You could not blame him.

Not about the first one anyway. Could we have an assurance from the Minister that he will exert his influence on his colleagues in the Cabinet with a view to giving effect to the ideal he has expounded on industrial relations? If this is not done, we cannot very well ask private enterprise why they do not sit down at the conference table to discuss labour differences with the trade union. There is no point in talking about matters of this kind—as if they were very far away—if the Minister disregards what is happening in the spheres of activity of some of his Cabinet colleagues.

The Minister, in the course of his rather lengthy statement, dealt with the various ways in which his Department touches on the employment and labour relations positions in this country. That part of his statement which dealt with industrial relations could be regarded as the part which would have most impact on the mind of the community. There are few questions which disturb people at the moment as much as that of our present industrial relations position. I do not think any good will result from blaming one side or the other or one section or the other for the position in which we find ourselves today. We should all deplore it and regret that certain things can happen in a community such as ours.

It is bad enough to go on an official strike but, in the case of unofficial and lightning strikes, one finds a good many outsiders with no direct interest whatsoever taking part in any unrest that may occur. It is time to examine the position impersonally and without recrimination or blaming one person or the other. I believe everybody in this House is as anxious as anybody else that this position be rectified. There was a time when I thought unofficial strikes should not be allowed but I have learned from people who have gone on unofficial strike that they consider it the only weapon left to them.

Is it not great to be on both sides of the fence at the one time?

Deputy Tully said that himself recently in this House.

The Minister will hear me repeat what I said in a few minutes time.

With regard to unofficial strikes, I should say the grievances are against trade unions and the leaders of their unions.

Now we hear the Establishment.

I am repeating what I have been told. I do not subscribe to the statement by the last speaker that there is a very good trade union structure in this country.

We would not expect that of Deputy Healy.

I think trade unionism is essential but the trade union movement in this country is far from perfect. However, I shall not blame them for that. Very few institutions are perfect. The trade union movement should recognise its weaknesses and endeavour to remedy them to the best of its ability. Good management-staff relations are essential. The more communication there is between staff and management the better and the fewer strikes there will be, official or unofficial.

By now, it must surely be recognised that the strike, more often than not, improves the position only of the person who is comparatively well-off and that the people who suffer most are those who are already badly-off. Very often, after a strike, there is emigration, unemployment and poverty. I do not advance the view that a strike is not sometimes necessary but, as in the case of a war, it should be used only as a last resort. In these days, the strike weapon should not be necessary in view of the machinery we have available to settle disputes. We should have the good-will, the broadmindedness and the wish to settle disputes without making anybody suffer unduly. I appeal to everybody in this country to do nothing which would cause a difference between one class of person and another.

I agree with the Minister that the lower-paid workers should be our prime concern and that we should do what we can to improve their condition. In the past few years, this country has projected a very poor image from the point of view of attracting industrialists, foreign or native, to invest money here.

The Government have.

In view of the bad image created by strikes in this country the foreign industrialist is, naturally enough, slow to come here. An Irishman with capital has two choices. He can put his money into an industry, with the risk of labour unrest and the worry and trouble thereby entailed together with the risk of losing his money altogether, or he can make some investment and sit back and employ nobody and earn enough from the investment to keep himself and his family in comfort. We want to encourage people to invest money in industry thereby giving them a fair chance of making money out of it and, furthermore, giving other people a fair chance of employment. I am sure there is no difference of opinion in this House on such matters.

I urge the Minister to continue his endeavours to get handicapped people into industry. I welcome what he said in his opening statement in that connection. I trust he will consult with voluntary and semi-State organisations with a view to getting those who need help into sheltered employment. We are only waking up to the problem of the physically and mentally handicapped. We cannot do much to provide employment for the mentally handicapped but we can do a fair share for the physically handicapped. Unfortunately, we are not sufficiently well developed in industry to do as much as is being done in Britain for the physically handicapped. My experience is that many people in labour and management would be glad to help in placing that category of person.

I regret to have to say that, in my experience, what the Minister says about female labour is correct in Cork, at any rate. Some of the biggest employers there have told me that frequently after training a girl for a year or eighteen months, she emigrates to Britain. Some industries there have difficulty in recruiting female labour and in some parts of Cork city there is a shortage of girls and young women for these jobs. The industries of which I am speaking are some of the best concerns in the country and employees work under very good conditions and belong to organised trade unions. It seems a pity that there should be this flow out of the country of people who could have good employment and good conditions in our community. I suppose that, unfortunately, it is a trend of the age that young people want to travel and no matter what we do about it we shall have some emigration. Certainly, we should endeavour to see that anybody who wants to stay in the country should be able to do so and enjoy reasonable living standards.

I hope that when the Minister brings his Estimate before the House next year we shall have a much better record regarding industrial relations. I certainly feel the Minister will have the support of everybody and every Party in the House in anything he can do to bring workers and management together and solve their difficulties without any drastic action. I trust he will do everything possible to discourage outsiders who have no particular interest in the country but to jump on every bandwaggon and create disorder and magnify difficulties and increase the difficulty of making agreements.

Let me first put the Minister right. He quoted me a couple of minutes ago as saying I was in favour of unofficial strikes and that I had said so here before. What I said here before was that there was only one answer to summary dismissal and that was the lightning strike. I am not in favour of the lightning strike any more than anybody else but if an employer throws out a worker on the road, whether man or woman, without an explanation he is served damn well right if the remainder of the workers walk out. These are the only circumstances in which I would agree that such action should be taken. Unofficial strikes are an abomination.

I agree with something that Deputy Healy, Deputy Mullen, Deputy Belton, and, indeed, the Minister himself, said about people who encourage strikes, who are not part of the work force in this country but who have been taking part in these unofficial strikes and who have been, as my colleague, Deputy Dunne, said recently leading from behind, telling the fellows what they should do and how they should get what they want. There are quite a number of these trained agitators in the country, in country and city and I discussed some of them with the Minister for Labour recently, the boys in the little red mini who have appeared——

Mini car, you mean?

So that is the way the Minister thought of it; I thought that it must mean car. It is not confined to these people. There is evidence that there are members of the Fianna Fáil organisation who think as Deputy Healy does, that it is not a bad thing at all if you can get at these trade union leaders and the way you get at them is to start a strike. There is definite evidence that some of the strikes started in this country were started by Fianna Fáil people who thought they were doing what the Government wanted them to do. I am quite sure—I mentioned this to the Minister for Labour—that the Government would not agree that this was right at all but you hear people who are members of the Fianna Fáil Party bragging about the amount of money they took out of the coffers of the trade unions and saying it was a pity that it was not a lot more, because the Government said that the trade unions were at the present time supporting the Labour Party and, therefore, something should be done about it. Something that was said by Government spokesmen—I will be charitable about it—and misinterpreted down the line was followed up by some of these people who should have had more sense, taking action or starting an action that has cost the country as well as the workers a lot more than it cost the unions. That is rather a pity.

The other gentlemen referred to usually come in then and direct operations and even the dupes from the Fianna Fáil Party who started the ball rolling do not realise they are being used as tools by these people. If the Minister wants to check on this there is plenty of evidence that more than one of these unofficial strikes in the past few months in this country were started in this way. We do not want unofficial strikes and the trade union movement must do something about them. I speak as general secretary of a trade union. Unless the trade union movement takes the definite action that should be taken, we will have people who will be encouraged to "have a go" at the unions, not at the employers. We have the unfortunate situation where people are being advised that the trade unions are no doing all they should be doing, not negotiating as they should negotiate, that, therefore, they should have an unofficial strike or start trouble in some way and "force their hands". All utter nonsense; in fact, what they are doing is breaking down relations that it has taken years to build up or preventing by their stupid actions the proper negotiations that will ultimately lead to increases.

Some of these people have not realised that an increase negotiated while they are at work and drawing pay, even if it is slightly smaller than they would get if they held up the whole country to ransom, is better in their pockets and means more to themselves and their families when all is said and done. Unfortunately, we have people being codded into taking certain action but I think it has been borne in on quite a number of them that this sort of action is foolish. When they sit down and look at it, and particularly when they find those who encouraged them into taking a particular action, when it comes to the reckoning at the finish to find out what has happened, are keeping out of sight and not being as noisy as when the strike was first mooted, I think they realise they have been fooled.

Of course, employers will hold up their hands and say: "That is right, that is the sort of thing that must be said." We must also say that we have, unfortunately, a number of very unreasonable employers. We have the reasonable people with whom you can deal but we also have the people who will dodge every way they can, people who will stall and prevent negotiations from starting and when they start prevent them from finishing if by doing so they think they can save a couple of shillings. I often wonder, when I see one of them spending maybe what a worker would get for 12 months on a not-so-fast horse how they can argue for months over a few shillings increase in wages. If you tax them with it they can very easily point to the State. My colleague, Deputy Mullen, was quite correct when he said the worst employer in the country is the State. I am not referring to the Civil Service, the people on salaries, but to people on wages.

I am sure the Minister for Labour will be surprised if I tell him that one Department a fortnight ago offered the union of which I am secretary an increase of 15/- a week. The Minister quoted correctly the general run of increases for those under the agreement made for two years up to 1970. I am sure he is also aware that there were increases of a pound per week and service pay of 5/-, 10/- or 20/- for different periods with additional holidays, two weeks this year and two next year——

Mr. Belton

Two days.

We did not come to that yet. I meant two days. When this evidence was put before the Department of Finance, the Office of Public Works, they offered 15/- a week increase and nothing else and only on condition that the public works employees, the arterial drainage workers who were concerned in this particular case, would be prepared to guarantee that they would in future accept increases granted—God help us —by the Agricultural Wages Board. I am sure the Minister will agree that this is not the type of good labour relations he has been talking about today, that is not the type of fair wages we hear so much about from the Government. It is ludicrous that somebody who is getting a rate of between £9 and £10 per week is offered 15/- and nothing else, while his colleagues who are employed by other people in the same kind of work all over the country are getting increases of £1, plus service pay, which in many cases means another £1 per week plus additional holidays.

I had a question on this in the House and the Parliamentary Secretary replied that the trade union was being met again to discuss the matter. I had a letter from the Board of Works offering to discuss the matter further. When I phoned, the man was very polite, but he made it clear that while he was prepared to discuss the matter with me, the Board of Works and the Department of Finance had made up their minds, and that it would be wasting his time and mine going along to discuss the matter at this stage—fifteen shillings it was and 15/- it was going to remain. What is the use in the Minister for Labour talking about a fair wage, about the necessity to improve the lot of the lower paid worker, while the people on the bottom of the scale are offered an increase like that?

To make matters worse, the Department of Lands, who deal with thousands of forestry workers and a couple of hundred Land Commission workers, have offered no increase at all. They are sitting on the fence, waiting to see what will happen in the case of the Board of Works. If that offer were accepted the Department of Lands would agree to give the same. Since the offer has not been accepted they are not moving. The new Minister for Lands informed me three weeks ago there was nothing to worry about, that there would be action on it immediately, and we would be surprised how quickly they would move. They have not moved at all.

When Deputy Lemass was Taoiseach, in almost the last speech he made in this House, he said in reply to a question from me he was now satisfied it was necessary to introduce some type of arbitration for State employees who have not already got it. All salaried State employees have some appeal; if they are not satisfied with what is being offered, they have conciliation and arbitration machinery to which they can go. The other employees have no such machinery. It is like going to law with the devil and holding the court in Hell. These people with whom we are discussing claims have no authority to give us anything. They are always going back to talk to somebody else, and when that somebody else gets to it we get nothing anyway.

The then Taoiseach, Deputy Lemass, said arbitration or conciliation would be set up. He did make the comment that he did not think the Labour Court was suitable for such workers— that is only in passing—but that some kind of machinery would be introduced very soon. I do not know what the Fianna Fáil Government mean by very soon, but the Minister for Finance, Deputy Haughey, said he proposed, in the near future—which is the same as "very soon"—to introduce legislation along these lines, but again nothing has been happening, and I honestly believe that nothing will happen. This is just so much blah-blah for the purpose of putting us off.

The Minister may have heard me speaking here before about an application which I had before the Department of Lands for increased wages for certain categories of employees and for an improvement in conditions. It look two years correspondence, phone calls, and questions in this House before an interview could be arranged. Out of that interview, which took place about three months ago, all we have got so far is an offer to find out from the various supervisory grades in the employment what the men want, whether they wanted three quarters of an hour or half an hour for their lunch. The wage question, the various conditions, the improvement in differentials and the other matters which were raised, all have been brushed aside. It is idle for the Minister for Labour to talk about labour relations at all, and certainly about an improvement in the lot of the lower paid worker while this sort of thing continues.

My main purpose in speaking here this evening is to ask the Minister for Labour to get the Government to set an example. If they are really serious about this, then they can do something about it; they can set up conciliation and arbitration machinery. If they do, the trade union movement will look after the rest, because we would hope to get at least as much for the State employees as is being given outside. The State has always made the argument that it cannot lead the race, that it cannot offer wages or conditions which are better than those in outside employment. However, there is nothing in any regulation which says that it should be so far behind. Before this joke goes any further, because joke it is, the Department of Labour should try to set up a scheme of conciliation and arbitration which would deal with this problem. If they do, we can proceed in the normal way and everybody will be satisfied.

When the Department of Labour was set up everybody agreed it could do a good job. Unlike some of my colleagues in the Minister's Party and in the other two Parties, I agree with him that there are certain fields in which the Department of Labour have justified themselves; the Minister himself has done what he could to iron out a number of knotty problems. The same thing happened when the late William Norton was Minister for Industry and Commerce. He sat up all night on one occasion in an effort to stop a bus strike—and I am glad to say he succeeded—and when it was all over he got very little thanks for it either from the public or the people concerned. The Minister for Labour, Deputy Dr. Hillery, did a pretty good job in bringing together the people involved in the recent ESB dispute. There should be some way of resolving these disputes, but what has happened in the most recent case, where we had two sets of conciliation machinery falling out over which of them should hear a case, does not help matters at all.

There is something else which I mentioned here on a previous occasion. I was severely critical of the Labour Court, and I want to say now that I personally believe the Labour Court are doing the best job they can. There are too few trained personnel for conciliation and for the Labour Court proper. The sooner we stop this cod and arrange for a decent pension scheme for existing members of the Court, the better it will be for everybody concerned. It is ridiculous that in the year 1968 the people who are doing this job are not entitled to a pension of any kind. I believe there should be a third Court set up, and set up pretty quickly.

While the Minister says we have had a very big number of man days lost through industrial disputes this year, everybody knows there are far more man days lost through unemployment, because there are no jobs for our people to go to. I should like to correct the Minister on one small point he made, that people here had said there were 70,000 unemployed the whole year. I did not hear anybody say that. Somebody may have said it but I did not hear it. He also went on to say that the number of unemployed in February, 1957, exceeded 95,000 and that that figure had not been equalled since and he hoped it never would be. He said it was a record. For his information, and I think he is old enough to remember it, the record was set by the Fianna Fáil Government in 1933 when the number of unemployed was, if my memory serves me right, 131,000. That might as well go down on the record. We might as well put the record straight on this occasion.

That was when they were whipping John Bull.

Well, I am not going to go into the pros and cons——

When they were thinking of Egyptian bees instead of cattle.

With the help of Labour.

You got rid of Labour and most of the jobs in the country and it took some time before you eventually came back——

(Interruptions.)

The Minister referred to training and retraining and also to adult training and he said that staff has been recruited for these centres and that they are being trained. He also said that accelerated adult training would be provided in the centres in order to help new industries settling into these areas by providing the semi-skilled workers in demand. I have two points to raise on that. First of all, why must there be only three centres, two in the South and one in the West? Secondly, when the Minister is talking about retraining would he say for what it is proposed to retrain these people? This is one of the points we raised when we were discussing the Redundancy Payments Bill when I also asked this question. None of us takes pleasure in repeating the fact that the number of jobs is not increasing. People are leaving agriculture at a great rate and because of that the number of new jobs being created in industrial employment is not picking up the slack. I agree with Deputy Belton that people over 50 years of age are going to find it very hard to get employment. The State has a regulation that nobody over 40 years of age should be employed in pensionable employment. You are an old man, according to the State, if you are 40 years of age. In view of that, what does the Minister mean by saying that there is retraining? If the State will not take such people into employment and there does not appear to be sufficient industrial employment, how are they going to be retrained? Perhaps, there is an answer to this. Is there a particular type of job for which a number of people will be trained, or must we first have the job and then train the man or do we train the man for something for which there is no demand in the country? What does the Department mean by saying that they are going to retrain certain people? I should like to get that clear. I must admit that I am very puzzled about it.

As far as the employment and placement services are concerned, this is something about which there was a lot of talk last year, about the big changes that were to take place in the employment exchanges which were going to be brightened up. You are going to build a new one in Drogheda but if Drogheda had another industry to cater for the unemployed, instead of a new exchange, we would be a lot happier. The employment exchange which is there has been inadequate for years and the people who sign on there have to do so under very primitive conditions. I do not know of any effort being made in employment exchanges to place people in jobs. The Minister referred to the appointment of five or six placement officers in Dublin and to a couple in the South, but I do not think that the job has been tackled properly in the country. People who are unemployed in an area like Drogheda are just as important to themselves and to their families as people in other areas are to themselves and their families. The Minister also referred to a survey which was carried out in Drogheda which found that most of the women signing on there only signed on for credits. If I may be excused the pun I find it hard to credit that.

That is no credit to you.

I know Drogheda well; I live within six miles of it. It is not in my constituency yet.

Are you watching it?

Watching it carefully. I do not know of a big number of women who are signing on merely for credits in Drogheda. If they are they need to have their heads examined. Other areas in which this is said to be done are also referred to but Drogheda is singled out. I challenge those figures; I do not think they are correct. I do not care where the Minister got them. I do not believe they are correct. The proof of it, of course, is that these people go every week to sign on and some of them have to travel a considerable distance to do so. Those who cannot sign at home go a considerable distance to the local barracks or to an exchange in order to sign and it is ludicrous to say that they are merely signing in order to embarrass the Government.

In regard to redundancy payments, the Act, of course, has not yet got a fair trial but the Minister will admit, because hindsight is a good thing, that our suggestion that the date should have been the 1st July, 1967 and not the 1st January, 1968 was a very good proposal because of the number of people who were dismissed in the last week of December, 1967. Unscrupulous employers dismissed workers all over the place simply because they wanted to escape the effects of the Redundancy Payments Act. In addition to that, so many wrinkles have been operated by unscrupulous employers that even when they are getting rid of a man they sack him for one reason or another and replace him by somebody for a couple of weeks, until the heat blows over. If the Minister has not got evidence of this he will find it coming in very quickly. The redundancy payments scheme is going to be out of date as far as individual workers are concerned, as compared with groups of workers when a factory closes down, unless he does something serious about it. This angle has been overlooked by everybody and unscrupulous employers are getting away with it. If the Department are not careful, the whole scheme will be set at nought by smart people who try to get away with something that was not taken into account when the Act was being passed. It is quite common to say that people are dismissed for some other reason even though the real reason was redundancy.

The Minister referred to the average lump sum payment being £115 and said that the number of people who were declared redundant was 975. He also referred to the fact that only 360 of them continued to draw benefit and he assumed that they had been reemployed. That is a very innocent assumption because I have met quite a number of people who drew redundancy payments and do you know what they said? They said it was useful for one thing—it paid their fare. They were assured of their fare and they were able to go across to the other side with a few pounds in their pockets. That is, unfortunately, the situation and it will continue to be the situation until this country makes some effort towards implementing a policy of full employment.

Throughout the entire Estimate speech of the Minister, apart from a few general observations, there is no set plan indicating that the Government are prepared to do anything to bring about full employment. I made the same comment on the Budget Statement of the Minister for Finance a few weeks back. There is no indication of any kind that an effort will be made by the Government to set up industries here. Where industries could survive and are not being established by private enterprise the responsibility is on the Government to step in and set up such industries. The onus is definitely on the Government and the savings ultimately made would be far greater than anything they are getting out of some of the foreign industrialists who have been brought in here and who are simply playing ducks and drakes with the arrangements here.

The Minister said in his speech today:

In an effort to promote good relations, I authorised officers of the Department to attend meetings and address shop stewards, trade union members and part-time union officials on aspects of the work of the Department, the lectures being arranged by the Irish Congress of Trade Unions as part of their education programme. Officers were also authorised to speak on aspects of the work of the Department at meetings organised by management, administration and academic bodies.

Would the Minister say if he has succeeded in getting the officials of any Government Departments, apart from those of his own Department, to go along and listen to these lectures? Would he consider it a good idea to get the officials of the Department of Finance or the Department of Lands to listen to these lectures in the hope that they will sink in?

Get them invited?

The Minister says:

Officers were also authorised to speak on aspects of the work of the Department at meetings organised by management, administration and academic bodies.

They have been at the administration lectures.

Then they have not benefited very much by them because these fellows do not seem to have improved. Most of the Departmental officials I meet for purposes of negotiations are usually very polite. I would have no quarrel with their attitude generally, but there is an occasional "wrong 'un", as we say, the odd one who, because he is a senior official, feels he is entitled to give short answers which, let me tell the Minister, are not taken from him. Occasionally we meet one of these. Normally they are people to whom we can talk in the same way as we talk to the Minister himself. The general body are all right, but we do not get anything from them; they are not authorised to give any increase or improve any conditions.

The Minister refers to the policy of developing our association with the International Labour Office and he says that policy is being continued. He says:

Last year a delegation representative of the Government, ICTU and the Federated Union of Employers attended the Organisation's Annual Conference in Geneva and I myself had the opportunity of addressing the assembly. Among the instruments adopted by the Conference were a Convention and Recommendation about maximum weight to be carried by workers and Recommendations about communications and grievance procedures.

That is an excellent idea and it is about time maximum weight regulations were introduced but, if my memory serves me correctly, there was also a Convention signed some time ago by this Government about equal pay for equal work.

The Minister would like the Deputy to be more specific.

I do not want to embarrass anybody, but there is an example of this in this House; I understand there is a difference of £7 per week between the salary of a male and a female reporter. Could the Minister say if the male reporters are doing a better job than the female reporters? Is this not a case in which equal pay for equal work could be brought into operation? There are thousands of other examples in other Government Departments of jobs in which men are doing exactly the same work as the women but the women are paid considerably less than the men. Would the Minister like to make any comment on this when he is replying? I should like to hear it. I have heard back-benchers of his own Party talking about the intention of the Government to introduce something like equal pay for equal work in the near future; there was always a poor, unfortunate dead Deputy buried a few weeks before this idea was introduced: if the speaker was talking to a group of women he told them this because a few more votes were needed. Now that there are no by-elections affecting us here, thank God, I should like to have the Minister comment on this.

Aliens employment permits were referred to. I am not opposed to the employment of people if there is employment for them and provided they are not displacing our own nationals. If someone comes in here with a special trade or skill and can be employed here I have no objection to his employment. On the other hand, when an application comes to my office from the Irish Congress of Trade Unions to know if I have any objection to Herr von Something-or-Other employing Fritz X at about £6 per week as a farm worker, I certainly have objection. Sometimes these alleged farm workers get the grandiose title of "supervisor of agricultural operations", which means farm worker and, if one checks on the hours, one finds they are supposed to work seven days a week and all the hours God gives; they are guaranteed their fare home to Germany, or somewhere else, once a year, along with their wages, and the German system of social welfare benefits will apply. I do not know what they are and I am not, therefore, in a position to comment. But I will always object. There are far too many unemployed farm workers here for us to tolerate people being brought in to do farm work. Indeed, this applies to many other types of work. The first thing that happens when these people bring in a man is that he is lodged somewhere. The next thing is they will suggest that a local farm worker, who is living in a house belonging to them, either takes this man in as a lodger or gets out of the house and gives it to him. This has been happening. In many cases the Department here said they will not allow it. Let me say at once that, since the Department of Labour took over, this sort of problem has been dealt with in a far better way than it was previously because there were cases in which, despite strenuous objections by the trade union movement, these people were allowed to bring in countrymen of their own, for one reason only; it was not because they spoke their own language or in order to teach the local how to speak it, it was for the purpose of getting cheap labour and, as far as I am concerned, I will oppose the importation of cheap labour so long as I have breath left in my body.

The Minister says a more liberal policy is justified in a few categories, for example, domestic service and certain catering works, in which permits are granted freely as Irish workers are in short supply. Who said Irish workers are in short supply? The Minister knows that the only reason why some people find it difficult to get these workers is that they will not pay a proper wage and they are able to get foreigners to come in and work at scandalously low rates. I suggest to the Minister that, no matter what excuse is made by an employer that he cannot get workers here because they are so scarce, if he checks he will find that the wages offered and the conditions are not such as should be offered to anybody in this country. If he checks on this he will find that these aliens are literally paid with buttons and the way to stop this is to ensure that things are done in the proper way—that people who are doing this type of work will be paid properly for it. Letting in foreign workers to do this only encourages a low wage policy which none of us wants.

One other point I should like to stress in relation to the Minister's statement that the Industrial Development Authority and the Shannon Free Airport Development Company have to compete for new industries with other countries which are offering a wide range of inducements. He went on to say—I am not using his actual words— that many people who are asked to come here with industries do not want to come because there are so many strikes. The Minister knows it was the practice some years ago-not too long ago—to advertise in continental countries asking people to come here to establish industries. These advertisements carried the legend that there was an abundance of cheap labour available here. I understand this type of advertisement is no longer in the newspapers but some of the people coming in seem to have it whispered to them en route because I often find that they are not too anxious to pay decent wages and, if pressed, they say they would not have come if they had not assumed they could pay in rural Ireland only what they called farm wages—farm workers' wages, I assume —to people employed in industry. My point is that the Department of Labour should make it clear to those people that if they employ workers in industry, they will have to pay them industrial wages and extend industrial conditions to them and that they should not be moaning about it.

I do not wish to say very much about the EI company because Deputy Mullen, who is dealing directly with it, spoke extensively about it. However, I repeat what I said during the Budget debate that it is not over yet. It will affect, and is affecting, many people other than those working in the job, and before it is finished, unless an effort is made to have a fair agreement reached, it will affect many people mainly because those who should know better are interfering, by supplying vehicles, and so on. One thing which people should remember is that the name "scab" sticks a long time. If they remember that, they will realise that they should not become involved in this dispute.

I should like to pay this tribute to the Minister. It is not his fault that this dispute has taken this turn and that the matter has not been settled. I am aware that he and his officials have done as much as, and possibly more than, could have been expected of them to bring it to a conclusion but it is the Government's fault in the first place for allowing people to come in here to start industries who feel that the normal regulations governing industrial relations here should not apply to them. As Deputy Mullen has said, when foreign industrialists are coming in the future, it should be made clear to them that they must respect the traditions which govern Irish employers and workers and that if they do, this sort of thing cannot happen.

The only regret I have in relation to the Minister's opening statement is that little of it will see the public light because the newspapers cannot publish it, due to shortage of space and so on. That is a big disappointment because if this document could be got into the hands of trade unions, employers and the public generally, we should have a much better atmosphere in industrial relations generally. The statement indicates that the Minister has done a fine job of homework on the matter of labour conditions and industrial relations.

The suggestion has been made that the establishment is anti-worker. The people who make such statements do no service to the trade union movement or to the country in general because it is only foolish people who say trade unions are too strong. Most people realise that trade unionism is too weak and, as I have said previously, any legislation here will have the effect of strengthening the trade union organisation because we realise that it is only by having a strong and competent trade union organisation that we can hope to improve industrial relations generally.

During the past year we have had a lot of unofficial strikes and I join with the secretary of one of the biggest trade unions in saying that an unofficial strike is a repudiation of the union. It is a bad thing that any worker should repudiate his union. However, a lot of unofficial action has not that deliberate intention. It may be because very often men may want to take a short cut to a decision on, say, an application for a pay increase. Here much of the fault can be laid at the doors of employers, whether in private or public concerns. Often the cause of a strike is not the actual demand but the length of time it takes to resolve the matter in dispute. Often it drags on for months and naturally people become impatient and, in order to get a showdown, the unofficial strike takes place and a decision is reached, perhaps not the best in the long run. Strikes are sometimes ended when outside people come in to mediate but this simply papers the crack on the wall, without any effort being made to remedy the defect in the wall, which tumbles down eventually.

If the Minister's remarks are listened to by all concerned, we shall enter a new and happier situation in industrial relations. There are things we must face up to. If we are to have full employment, we must make things attractive for people who want to invest in industry and for the workers who want to stay here and work here during their full lives. Workers must have conditions of security but they will not have them in an atmosphere of industrial upheaval. In the long run, though strikes hurt employers, who lose profits but do not go short of meals, the hardest hit is the worker who must do without some things essential in the home.

I do not propose to dwell too long on it because there are abler minds than mine to comment. However, I pled with all concerned to adopt a "take and come again" system in demands for increased wages and conditions, particularly if such an attitude appears to be capable of ending deadlock. I appeal to both sides to say: "Let us compromise; let us accept this settlement for six months when we can come back." In that way, workers' incomes will be kept up without loss of wages because of strikes.

The NIEC have suggested in one of their reports that we should try to tie wage increases to increases in production. This is essential, but we must agree that the wages being paid at the time are sufficient to keep the workers concerned in decent living. If they are not so tied, there will be a defect in the system. We have often heard pleas here and outside on behalf of the lower paid worker. This is something which is very hard to resolve because we know that if the lower paid worker's wages are increased the worker above him will want to maintain the differential and so there is the upward trend again, leaving the lower paid worker no better off than he was before. I do not know how we will get around that but I would suggest that the man with a house full of young children who is being paid £10 or £12 a week is by no means affluent and the State could perhaps help by paying much bigger children's allowances. In that way, the man with the large family would benefit and it would mean that if the industry he worked in was not very well off his wife and children would not go short because of the fact that he was unable to earn sufficient money to keep them.

Until we have full employment—and few countries in the world have been able to achieve full employment—we will have to have emigration. I feel we have a duty to those who must emigrate to do everything possible to ensure that they will obtain posts abroad that at least are not degrading. There is an uneasy feeling here that some of our emigrants, particularly young girls, are being exploited by people who make a living out of the emigrants' fees for enrolment. Let me say that the vast majority of the people in these bureaux act very honestly but there have been suggestions by people who should know that people here are sending emigrants, especially girls, away to rather doubtful jobs, to say the least of it.

When I spoke on this before, I was told that Dublin Corporation had a certain duty in the matter but having looked up the relevant Act, which dates back to 1890, I find that the only function of Dublin Corporation with regard to employment agencies is in regard to private employment agencies, to see that conditions there are adequate, that there are proper facilities for washing and that kind of thing but nothing more, so that a young girl, probably from the country, who comes to those people for a job may be sent to any type of a job in Britain. I have been told, although I have not had time to check on it yet, that there are cross-Channel people advertising here for women and giving the name of an institution. In some cases these alleged institutions are non-existent. People are told that they will be met at the train and brought to their new jobs.

One can imagine a young girl in a big city like London meeting this person at the train and being brought to any place she likes to take her. The girls probably have no money to come home and must take whatever jobs they are given. This is altogether wrong. If we cannot provide employment for these people, we have a duty at least to warn them and to ensure that employment agencies will not make money out of their misery. The Minister stated that he is examining this whole question. I want to compliment him on the speed with which this matter was taken up when I raised a particular instance before. I feel that people should publicise the fact that these young girls must be careful of whom they contact as regards a job outside the country. If we can make parents aware of these things, we will have succeeded to some extent.

With regard to industrial accidents, in which unfortunately there was an increase last year, I am glad the Minister is taking steps with regard to safety measures for window cleaners. Some time ago on my way in here, I came on an accident in which a young man was killed in a fall from a building not far from here. It struck me that there was no protection at a height of perhaps 80 feet. It may be thought that this is only a minor problem but it is not a minor problem but it is engaged in this business. I want to pay tribute to the National Safety Organisation for the work they have done since they were established. They have made workers generally aware that accidents can happen. We may talk about the loss of production through strikes but unfortunately I am sure the time lost through accidents also contributes very much to bad production figures, apart from the harm to the individual.

The new look which the Minister is giving to the employment exchanges is long overdue and I am very glad that these steps are being taken. Employment agencies for many years were the most depressing places. I remember having to go to one on one occasion and it was a place one did not want to visit again. With the new look given to them by the Minister, these will be places where people will have a feeling that they are not just places to come to because they have no job, but that from them may come a new job, and at least they will be treated as people, as very important members of our society, and they will make the most of the service provided.

I suppose it is too much to hope that in the next few years we will have full employment. As I said, very few countries have been able to achieve this. When I say that, I mean very few of what we call democratic countries have it. The problem is easily solved in other ways, of course, and some East European countries have solved it very quickly but not in the way we want it solved. We want it solved in such a way that a man will have some dignity. This will take a great deal of doing, but I feel it is not beyond us if we have the full co-operation of all the people involved, employers and trade unions. We must await the arguments put forward by the trade unions because when any interruption comes or when there is not employment, those are the people who suffer.

In a small community it is absolutely suicidal to have this industrial strife. Human nature being what it is, we cannot hope to reach a stage where there will be no disagreement or no strikes, but I feel that with intelligent thinking and full co-operation, we will be able to prevent things reaching a point where a strike is the only way out. In this country, 50 years ago, the most potent weapon we used against the employers was the strike but nowadays because we live in such a complex society, practically any strike affects people who are not directly involved in it. It also affects the people not involved as much as the people involved. You cannot change human nature. We have to face the fact that the State, trade unions and employers must come together in their own interests in an effort to get agreement to disagree on those matters but the disagreement need not necessarily end in people being put out of employment and made to suffer because of those strikes, and in the end the workers realising that with what they have got from the strike, they are not much better off than they were before.

I have the utmost confidence in the Minister and his Department. I have also confidence in the trade union leadership if they get the full backing of the men, which, let us face it, they have not been getting in recent months. Trade union negotiators can negotiate in the knowledge that they will be able at least to come back with some recommendation to the workers. The unions are being weakended by strikes. The negotiators have not the full confidence of the workers. In their own interests, the men and women of the trade union movement should at all times back the leadership, unless they do something which is very obviously wrong. Negotiators will not do this because, if they do, they will not have the confidence of the workers. They know that they have to come back to face their members. They cannot get out of the employers any more than they are forced by circumstances to give them, which good employers will give willingly.

This time next year, I hope we will have seen a year of much better industrial relations. As well as thinking of the people who have jobs, we must also think of the people who have no jobs and we must aim, as I have said earlier, at creating a society which has full employment. If we have continued industrial unrest, we are not going to achieve that. I do not want to minimise the incidence of strikes here but I feel that if the Department can get this message to all the people concerned, we can look forward to a much brighter future. It is very easy to criticise strikes without knowing the full details of each case. I suppose it is also easy to criticise employers without knowing the full facts of each case but whether one speaks of employers or trade unions our society needs both, whether semi-State employers or employers in private industry. When we realise that we have all a common interest, we should then start moving towards the permanent society we want to see.

The Minister referred to agitators. Of course, there will always be these people. They are not new here; they have been here all the time but I have sufficient faith in the intelligence of the Irish workers to know that they will have no time for those people, that they will reject them. We have come a long way in the past 50 years, and with the expansion in education and the general expansion of the economy, we may not be too far away from the day when we shall have as near full employment as any society can possibly get in a voluntary society.

Listening to the contributions on this Estimate and indeed to similar related speeches made inside this House and outside the House by all kinds of political groupings, one cannot but be struck by this new-found frenzy to rush to the left on the part of groupings and political Parties to whom it does not seem to be quite a natural procedure. The left is a very overcrowded place these days. Speaking as one who has been very familiar with it going back to the times when it was windswept and barren, Sahara-like, the only sight one would see being a fellow traveller on the horizon, I suppose one should be encouraged by this development but methinks a lot of it is not quite as genuine as it is made to appear.

I think it was the former Taoiseach, Deputy Lemass, who advocated the need to move leftwards some years ago. His followers have taken up the chant because they saw it as a good political gambit and now it has been taken up in other quarters as well. I do not really believe that there has always been concern with the welfare of the workers on the part of the groupings to which I referred inside and outside the House as such people would have us believe.

The problem of labour relations and industrial relations is not a new one. There is nothing new either in that remark I have made, I may say, but we are faced, I suppose, with different aspects of this problem today. We are faced with it in a form in which it has never been presented to the country before. I think we are reaping the whirlwind of injustice and selfishness which has been displayed constantly and continuously by what is generally described as the established and what are sometimes called the employment class all down the years. What is the lesson that workers have taken from the history of industrial relations in this country? If there is any lesson, it is simply this. If they go by the example of the employers, whether they be manufacturers, in the distributive trade or whatever it is—and they seem to be going by the example which has been given to them all down the years—if they proceed on that example they will get from society just so much as they can squeeze out of it by brute force. That is the example which has been given to them.

Is it not the accepted standard, and indeed is it not regarded as respectable conduct and an admirable thing to be striven for and achieved that if a corner can be established in goods, the same individual, cartel, group or moneyed interest can corner goods to the extent of holding the community up to ransom in the matter of price, and that is OK? Has it not been the method with which our society has proceeded since we can recollect and is this not the kind of attitude that has been translated by some workers into action in their industrial relations? Are they not, in effect saying: "We are doing no more than the employing classes have always done—getting the maximum working advantage we can by the use of such powers as are at our disposal?" Employers should remember that the mote is not in the eye of the others but in their own. They gave the example; they can hardly complain of the credit situation being what it is.

This situation in which we find ourselves is being continuously deplored by speakers here in the House and outside it at all levels where men gather and talk. The need for stability has been criticised but nobody has come forward with any solution. Even today the Minister contented himself, as apparently he had no choice, with the pietistic hopes, as expressed by Deputy Moore, a well-intentioned man, and, indeed, by Deputy Healy of Cork, that things would get better and that everybody hoped for that with goodwill and co-operation, and the devil knows what else. Of course, we know they will not get better by those clichés and attitudes. Action must be taken which will bring about an improved situation.

The only contribution so far that we have seen by the Government—the only positive contribution with regard to industrial relations—and it was a contribution about which they were warned, was the passing of an Act in this House which made it an offence punishable by imprisonment for men to go on strike. We saw the result of it. It was not as if the Government were not told about it. I and the Labour Party were at pains to explain in detail that this thing would not go, that you are dealing with Irish workers and that they would not tolerate this. Not at all; it was going to be passed by the House, made a law of the land and would be enforced and all the rest, and we saw what happened. It was a total failure, an absolute flop, holding the Government, and not only the Government but Dáil Éireann, up to public odium and contempt. That was the Government's contribution to industrial relations.

It seems to me that the Minister has perhaps learned one or two of the facts of life relating to industrial workers and workers generally since he came into office and that may be a good thing. He has now invited suggestions. He says he is ready to receive suggestions from any quarter. There is one obvious suggestion and proposal which I should like to make. It is not new; it has been made by others but it needs to be acted on and acted on quickly. It seems to me that probably the major cause of friction and frustration in industry today as between workers and employers is the incredibly long delay between the presentation of wage claims and the eventual decision on these wage claims. It has been stated that in some instances unions have submitted claims on behalf of workers and finality has not been reached on them for periods of from 12 to 14 months. That is bound to lead to discontent. Anybody would get fed up with that.

We as Deputies know the frustration of delay when we deal with some Government Departments and some Ministers—happily, not all, but some— and we know the effect it can have on our own temperament. That is the first thing we have to tackle, to bring into existence some system which will eliminate the delays. It might very well be a good thing that the Labour Court should make it mandatory on employers to finalise decisions on wage demands, to give their final answer on wage claims within a certain reasonable time so that workers would know that the answer to their claim would be made within that time, and there would not be this dragging on, waiting, reporting back, this business of delay and frustration that I believe is at the base of a lot of our industrial problems and which is breeding ground for those who are interested in creating a residual ferment of unrest.

The average worker is a reasonable man. He is not too happy with the idea of spending his lifetime walking up and down outside his job as he wants to earn a fair wage. Personally, I am absolutely convinced that in this city, without going outside it to the rural areas where I know the conditions are bad, at the present time there are many thousands of workers who are not getting a living wage. They are working in industry and the deaf ear has been turned by their employers to the claims made on their behalf by the trade union movement.

This situation, of course, bedevilled by the delay to which I have referred in which employers indulge in dealing with claims, has a maddening and an enraging effect on the ordinary people, on the most law-abiding citizens. We get the kind of thing which happened in recent months.

I should like to avail of the opportunity on this Estimate to ask the Minister to get moving in that direction. It is no good at all in saying these things should not happen. These lectures and sermons delivered at dinners outside this House and speeches made inside the House are not worth the paper they are written on in so far as positive results are concerned. We must get down to the job of providing machinery for the speedy—to use the word which is applied to the job nowadays—processing of wage claims, and also, so far as we can, to impress upon the employing section of the community and upon the Government as an employer that the time is past when workers will be put off with a few shillings. A few shillings in wages nowadays is of little or no use to anybody. There must be increases of a kind which will have some meaning in terms of purchasing power. By adopting such a forward policy it may be that we can bring about an improvement in industrial relations and in the situation generally.

I have no fear for the trade union movement. I do not see any possibility of its collapse. The trade union movement as it has been built is part of the idealistic tradition of the country. The intelligent worker—and, thank God, most of them are intelligent and they are becoming more and more educated and enlightened as years go by—and the reader of history of the Labour movement, when they look around this city, wherever they see improvements in housing, flats and so on and improvements in working conditions and living standards, such as they are, can compare them with what went before and see in those things the face of Connolly and of Larkin and of the trade union movement which they created. This will continue to exist, happily, and to make its contribution towards the growth of the nation.

We are passing through a difficult time and a time of change. Quite obviously, we have come to the end of what might be regarded as an era in trade union development and in the development of our society. I remember when one had to fight in order to prevent people from passing pickets and had to go to jail to prevent people from passing pickets, when pickets were sneered at. The wheel has come full circle. Pickets nowadays are used very often in a sense entirely divorced form that for which they were originally intended. We have come to a stage of development when we need to look at our whole system of society and bring it into line with the needs of modern times.

Even the matter to which I referred at the outset, the headlong rush to the left from the most unexpected quarters, is a sign of the changing times. One sees people on the left nowadays and one is amazed because it is not so very long ago that the same kind of people were denouncing in the strongest possible terms anybody who called himself leftist or socialist.

The Minister referred to the problem of the provision of training and employment for the disabled. He recalled the fact that I had brought a Private Member's Bill before the House which sought to make it obligatory upon employers to give employment opportunities to handicapped persons. The Minister said that it might very well be that if he found voluntary effort was not succeeding in providing for these people he would have to consider whether legislation was desirable or not. I think the Minister will find himself driven inevitably to that conclusion because in the world in which we live there are individuals of the highest principles and the greatest humanity but I am afraid they are not in the majority. There are voluntary organisations doing tremendous work for the disabled. I say, with great respect to all of them, that they are merely touching the fringe of the problem. We have no reliable figures as to the number of disabled persons that there are in the country. I have heard estimates of over 20,000. These handicapped persons are anxious to make a contribution and to take their place as ordinary workers but they are deprived of the opportunity of doing so. That is a cruel thing because, apart from their economic needs, they are deprived of the opportunity to meet the ordinary human need to justify oneself and one's existence. That is the great tragedy òf the disabled. I do not think we will ever reach the stage where training could be made available for such persons through the voluntary organisations, excellent though their work may be. It is the duty of the State to step in here and to care for these persons who are the very weakest of the children of the nation, to help them, to give them hope.

Anybody who has had any contact with handicapped persons knows that a person who is physically or even to some extent mentally handicapped will do a much better job than some of their stronger and better equipped brethren. I attended a meeting of patients in a mental hospital last week. There was a chairman, committee, and so on. I was there for about two hours. Such meetings are started as a therapeutic course. I heard a great deal more sense talked at that meeting of patients than I have heard talked in this House and other places. The patients concerned were persons with slight mental trouble. After the meeting, two of them told me that they hoped to be discharged very shortly and asked me if there was any chance of their getting employment. What can one say to such people? There is no obligation on anybody to employ them although they are eminently fitted for employment. What chance have they of getting a job? It is difficult enough for an able-bodied unemployed man to get a job. I have a list of 30 men who are unemployed in Ballyfermot alone, who came to me. That is only a fraction of the actual number. What chance has a handicapped person of getting a job in competition with able-bodied persons? We think of them and we should think of them.

Deputy Cluskey and I last Saturday, on our way to the South, called in to Daingean Reformatory and saw there boys of 17 years of age. No employment opportunities whatever are provided for them. These youths, generally, would fall into the classification of juvenile delinquents. When they return to their places of origin they very often find it impossible to secure employment because of their record. As far as I know, no provision is made to look after such people, to try to create openings for them. Very often, they are very bright boys—bright in the proper sense—I do not use the word in any facetious way. Very often clever lads come from broken homes who never had a chance. I would implore the Minister for Labour to think a little about this problem of setting up some kind of machinery in conjunction with the Department of Education to provide for boys leaving reformatories and industrial schools training for employment or for the provision of employment. The question of the conditions under which the self-sacrificing men who run Daingean Reformatory have to operate does not belong properly to the Department of Labour. It is something I hope to take up with the Minister for Education. But in regard to this particular aspect it is highly desirable that some steps should be taken.

I found that the Apprenticeship Board, while no doubt excellent in conception and well-intentioned, does not meet the needs which exist as far as securing that young boys with day group certificates should be provided with places in which they can begin apprenticeships. The Board's attitude is that if a boy has a day group certificate and if he knows of an employer who needs an apprentice, they would be prepared to consider agreeing to such a boy for apprenticeship. That is not good enough. There should be an organised method by which the Minister's Department and the Apprenticeship Board would know of vacancies and would be able to allocate boys to such vacancies for training. The kind of boy who wants to become apprenticed to a trade is usually from a working class family. His parents do not have time enough or the contacts to go around amongst employers and find vacancies, and he himself is not equipped to do that kind of thing. It is a job for a Government Department. I would ask the Minister to consider that point and try to take some steps to prevent the obvious gap between qualifying for the day group certificates and the actual placing of boys in apprenticeship.

In the course of his lengthy speech the Minister made no mention at all of the Common Market. We may forget about the Common Market. While there is every evidence that this Government would be very glad if they had never committed themselves to the extent they have in this matter of the Common Market, they may very well find themselves—if the Government lives after tomorrow—in a difficult situation, what with the events in France and the problematical outcome of these events and the possibility of Britain's early entry into the Market. We may find ourselves as a nation compromised by the actions of this Government in racing, as they have done, to assure all and sundry, without any consultation with the people, that we want to get into this economic jungle where only the fittest survive which is called the European Economic Community. The Government have been very rash in their attitude to the Common Market. I can only hope their rashness will not lead us into greater trouble.

Of course, the Minister made no reference to the bad unemployment situation in Limerick. There are 2,500 registered unemployed in Limerick city. I would have thought it was part of the duty of the Minister for Labour to say what steps were being taken to relieve that very bad situation, but nothing has emerged from his speech in that regard. Last night we had the Taoiseach doing the "Bould Thady Quill" act down in Limerick but that was small comfort to the man dependent on the labour exchange. There is an obligation on the Minister and on the Taoiseach to indicate what is going to be done to relieve the hardship caused by unemployment in Limerick, but nothing whatsoever has been said. This is apparently due to a false sense of confidence—a misplaced confidence, I feel—which the Government have in relation to what is going on there at present. I think the Government are in for a very rude awakening in a very short time in that matter.

The Minister complained about attacks on the Establishment and brushed aside any suggestion that there was an anti-trade union bias in the Establishment. First of all, "Establishment" is one of these new "in" words used to describe the Government: it is an English word. By that I mean it is a word used in Britain to describe the Government in Britain and those with the power in Britain. I daresay it is a fair enough word to use here, too, because it has reference to the Government Party which has had the reins of power, such as it is in this country, in its hands for very many years.

The Minister will not tell me there is not an anti-trade union bias in the Establishment. I am convinced there is. In the Cabinet room there are gentlemen who would be glad to see the disruption of the trade union movement and outside the Cabinet room, among the hardy annuals of the Fianna Fáil Party, there are many others who would be glad to see trade unionism diminish or disappear if such were possible. But trade unionism will not diminish or disappear. When the Soldiers of Destiny are merely a vague memory in history, the Irish trade union movement will continue to exist and will flourish and become all the greater because it represents and services the essential needs of the great mass of the workers of this country.

That is all I have to offer on this Vote. I would ask the Minister again to give some thought, if he can, to the need I have mentioned for the giving of training and employment to young people who have been unfortunate in life and have found their way into industrial schools and reformatories. I would ask the Minister to make his contribution towards making good citizens of those people by seeing how far he can help to make training and vacancies available to them when they emerge from those institutions.

The Minister has given us a fairly thorough survey of the activities of his Department, particularly in relation to the establishment of the various bodies such as An Chomhairle Oiliúna. In general, he avoided one aspect to which he might have given some attention. Has he taken any interest in the position of the public employees of the State? After all, the Minister for Labour is concerned with general conditions. If he is concerned with the climate of industrial relations, with the conditions in which the workers work in the various industries, with the protection which is afforded to them, he must also have some information in the records of his Department about the level of the incomes of the workers in public and private employment.

While it does not come properly within his function as Minister for Labour to interfere outside, nevertheless one would have thought that he would have taken the opportunity during the past year to have regard to the various comments from speakers in this House as to how the people in the lower echelons of the public service are treated. He might have urged on his colleagues in the various Ministries, and on the Taoiseach, that when giving lectures to employers and employees, to employers' organisations, to manufacturing companies, to industrial concerns and to the trade unions, it would be no harm for them to start giving a little good example. While it is not within the authority of the Minister to make any definite decisions, it is within his scope as Minister for Labour, having a general interest in the way things are developing, to act as an adviser to his colleagues. I trust that if he has not already done so, he will bear that suggestion in mind in future. There is no doubt whatsoever that the State, the Government and this House are, in many respects, some of the worst employers in the country.

The Minister referred to various developments in the field of apprentice training and general training and retraining. This House welcomed the Bills dealing with those matters and supported the Minister's activities. At the same time, it is rather disappointing to read so frequently of firms closing down and workers becoming redundant. It is very disappointing for those who are prepared to commit themselves to training schemes of one kind or another, whether as apprentices or craftsmen who require additional training, or as technicians, to see around them so much evidence of lack of activity on the part of the Government.

The Minister has attempted, I think, to take on his shoulders—possibly he should not accept the responsibility— the argument about the continued high level of unemployment. In his contribution, which was fairly objective in some respects, I was disappointed to see that he utilised the political trick of many of his colleagues and referred in 1968 to the situation which he says existed some ten or 12 years ago. Whether the unemployment level was high in the forties, the fifties or the sixties, what we are discussing in 1968 in general terms is what the situation is today. To what extent has unemployment been effectively reduced by the Government's activities? To what extent can the boys and girls coming out of the schools in the future be reasonably satisfied that there will be employment opportunities open to them? The technical training is excellent. The increased educational opportunities are excellent and should and are being supported.

One question we must ask ourselves is: what are the present and future prospects for employment in this country? It may well be that but for the fact that the trade union movement in a number of industries were able to secure agreements, which provided that workers would not be laid off on redundancy, the number of workers declared redundant during the past year— or so—particularly the past year— might well have been much higher than the figure set down by the Minister.

The provisions of the Redundancy Payments Act, which were described from these benches as inadequate, were declared to be for the purpose of providing for persons likely to become redundant—not just likely to become redundant through the failure of commercial or industrial undertakings but, possibly in a number of cases, the provisions of that Act were designed to deal with problems arising from the success of undertakings such as productivity schemes which, in the final analysis, would mean fewer workers for the same amount of output. But for the successful efforts of the trade unions representing the workers concerned, the figure of redundant workers mentioned by the Minister would have been very much higher. One wonders whether the rather self-satisfied atmosphere surrounding the Minister's opening statement that, at a certain period, unemployment was only 60,000 odd would then disappear altogether.

The Minister mentioned that research should be undertaken into certain social problems. Take, for instance, income differentials and the mobility of workers. The Minister may have overlooked mentioning it but I wonder if he has had any further thoughts in relation to equal pay for equal work which is a very important matter as far as workers are concerned and which has been mentioned on a number of occasions from these benches. He will correct me if I suggest he is dragging his feet in this connection. Quite clearly, there are persons doing the same work and carrying the same responsibility, persons with the same education and training qualifications, who should not be differentiated against because one is a male worker and the other is a female worker. Yet this situation exists right through the strata of our society.

The nursing profession is given very high praise. They are now considering paying nurses a reasonable salary. Not many years ago, the qualification for being a nurse was that one undertook to follow a fairly strict course of training. On completion of the training, the nurse was declared qualified and was then described as being a member of a profession which was not a profession but a vocation and, being a vocation, the nurse was expected to work long hours for very little money. That situation is changing. Nevertheless, in that profession, people with exactly the same qualifications, people who have had the same training and who shoulder the same responsibilities, are paid different rates of salary simply because one is a man and the other is a woman. The same can be said of many other professions. It applies to some extent, I think, even in the medical profession. One wonders what is wrong with this community of ours. We think in terms of service from the community but we treat a very important sector of our community as second-class citizens.

When the Estimate for this Department was last before this House, the Minister was pressed to say if he would recommend that this country adopt the ILO Convention on equal pay for equal work. If this is not done, then what will happen will be a repetition of what happened over many years in the field of improvements in holiday entitlements, and so on. People will have to do the job and, when it is nearly done, the Minister will give his blessing to the work done and try to claim credit for what has, in fact, been achieved by workers through their organisations.

I do not think, at this stage, there is any great need to deal with the problem of industrial relations. We must grant that trade union organisations and even other organisations must be entitled to criticise the Establishment. In doing so, they exercise their rights within our democracy.

I wonder if the Minister is going far enough in the recruitment of additional factory inspectors, because, while some effort to increase the number of inspectors is being made, the need for such an increase is growing daily. Anybody in contact with workers at shop floor level will come up against this question again and again: to what extent do factory inspectors satisfy themselves that workers coming within the scope of joint labour statutory minimum rates of pay are, in fact, being paid these rates? If there were a thorough investigation of this matter, I believe that there would be found many cases, particularly in small firms, where statutory rates and conditions are not being observed.

There is no great problem with the large firm, with a large number of workers and effective trade union organisation. Even in his relatively short period as Minister for Labour, I am sure the Minister has been advised that in the case of firms employing a small number of workers, it is not always easy to secure observance of statutory minimum rates of pay and conditions of employment through trade union activity, because, even today in these cases, there is still a reluctance on the part of employers properly to recognise the right of workers to join and be active members of trade unions. This applies particularly in the case of juvenile workers. There are Irish firms which, even today, will use every opportunity to discourage or prevent workers from joining a trade union of their choice, just as do some firms coming in from outside. There is no excuse for this attitude. The object in many cases, especially in the case of the workingclass employer, is to avoid paying workers what they are entitled to get, whether under trade union agreements or under statutory conditions of the joint labour committees' schedules.

The Minister has another serious responsibility. I do not propose to talk of any particular firm in this connection but it has become crystal clear over a number of years that outside firms have come here, established industries with the assistance of very substantial financial and other aid from the State and appear to be unaware, until they start operations here, that there is such a thing as the trade union movement and union conditions and rates of pay. This is not just in one case but in dozens of cases. I do not suggest this is a responsibility of the Minister for Labour; it is not under his Department that the negotiations leading to the establishment of the industries take place, but it is naturally his concern if subsequently he has to come to the Dáil with or have reports in the newspapers, referring to the great number of days lost through industrial action.

It is time that when dealing with any firm, whether British, American, Japanese, German or French, coming to this State, we should point out to them some of the facts of history. We properly refer quite frequently inside and outside the country to the sacrifice of those who participated in 1916 and there is hardly any large-scale industrial concern without knowledge of these matters through repeated publicity. Do we ever bother to inform these undertakings that three years prior to 1916, the workers in our capital and some of our major cities and in some rural parts of the country made it quite palin, before any Constitution was written, that their right to be organised in trade unions would have to be respected and conceded and that their right, through their organisations to demand reasonable rates of pay and working conditions, their right to be treated as men and women, human beings, must be conceded. Surely in 1968 it is the Government's responsibility to make it plain that any firm desirous of setting up any form of undertaking in this country should observe what has been won for Irish citizens from Irish employers and from British employers. While the direct responsibility may not fall on the Minister for Labour the final responsibility may well rest on his shoulders, because he may have to intervene in some way to remedy the situation brought about as a result of the failure of his colleagues.

I wish to make reference to one little matter which I hope the Minister will consider fairly carefully and not brush it aside as was done year after year by the Minister for Industry and Commerce. Over the past two or three years negotiations have been carried on between major trade union organisations and major employer organisations, and one of the items dealt with has been the question of additional annual leave. The Minister is aware that these negotiations, by and large, have been peaceful, that agreements have reached the point at which a very large number of workers are now covered.

I would ask the Minister to examine —not just at the moment; he is not given to making too many commitments—in the near future the desirability of introducing amendments to the Holidays (Employees) Act, so as to extend this benefit to the workers who have not as yet had it negotiated for them. I am raising this now because of the fact that it took from 1946 to about 1961 to have the week's holidays extended to a fortnight. Repeated representations were made over the years to the then Minister for Industry and Commerce, Deputy Lemass, subsequently the Taoiseach, and the answer on most occasions was: "There is no demand for this addition to the holidays."

Peculiarly enough, nothing was done by the Government until a Private Member's Bill was introduced by the Labour Party. When that was introduced, the Taoiseach, the then Minister for Industry and Commerce, indicated that in the following session he would introduce the legislation. When such a commitment is made by a Minister, the normal practice has been to withdraw the Private Bill. The then Minister for Industry and Commerce carried out the commitment, but it took from 1946 to 1961 to get this benefit. During the intervening period, thousands upon thousands of workers had secured the additional holidays. The workers who had not got them again were those who were in a weak industrial position. I raise this matter, because one of the major functions of a Government is to afford assistance and protection by way of legislation or otherwise to those who themselves are not in a position to pursue the matter. I therefore ask the Minister to give consideration to this matter which in the years ahead will become increasingly important.

These are the few comments I wished to make on the Minister's Estimate at this time, because many of the matters with which he deals in his Estimate review are matters that might be the subject of somewhat more critical analysis 12 months from now. Whether the efforts of the various bodies he mentions are of value will more clearly be shown at the end of that period than they can possibly be shown now. As the Minister explained, the manpower policy, the replacement services, and so on, are only getting under way. He is entitled to a breathing space, but he will not be permitted to retire into a cocoon and remain there for a very long period. Events, I am sure, will bring him out of the cocoon quite quickly.

The suggestions by Deputies will be carefully considered by me. Since the setting up of the Department of Labour, I have tried to broaden the picture people would have of it beyond the scope of what I once called fire brigade activity: when trouble was afoot, the Department was expected to come in and settle it. For that reason I went fairly widely and deeply into the various activities in which I and my Department have been engaged during the past year. There is a very wide range of activities but still public interest, and the interest of Deputies, bring us back to this area of industrial relations. Strangely enough, while most of the suggestions made are in this area, it is the one area where I have the least power given to me by the House and by others, and it is the one area in our democracy from which the Government are advised by both management and unions to stay away. It creates a difficult problem. As I said when introducing the Estimate, all I can do is try to clarify the situation by having examinations carried out. We are doing this in retrospect in regard to the ESB strike and the Bord na Móna strike. In spite of all our experience, I still assume that people do not want to go on strike, that they do not like the hardships of a strike and that the working man on strike suffers, but I hope, with enlightenment we shall gain from examination of our experience, we will be able to improve the procedures.

The points which we had about delays this evening are points which I have heard many times before from trade union officials who came to visit me. Strangely enough, I have not heard complaints about wage levels but about delays, and these have been repeated in the House this evening. On the other hand, any movement in regard to wages and salaries must have regard to the other matter I mentioned, our competitiveness, and if in this freedom of free negotiations, the people engaged in them do not consider the person who is coming out of school, or off the land, or the handicapped person depending on a job in an expanding economy, then at least I have a duty to remind them. That is perhaps the second function, apart from investigations, of the Government in these matters, to give guidelines in so far as we are able from the information available to us.

We have, of course, made available various procedures, the Labour Court conciliation and the Labour Court itself. As Deputies will know, I have had very prolonged discussions with the trade unions and employers' organisations in an attempt to improve these procedures and the law relating to this end is being drafted at the moment. Therefore, in these ways, I hope to be able to contribute to some improvement in the field of industrial relations, but those who expect me to act powerfully without giving me any power must become fewer in number as time goes on, because, as I have often said, in our democracy, with freedom of negotiation, the responsibility of those taking part in negotiations is the hope for the community at large. The community can only be guided by guidelines and by the procedures being improved by the Government.

The other area where this free negotiation takes place is in the question of equal pay for equal work for women. If we were fixing the wages and salaries for everybody in the country, it would be a valid enough argument to say that the Minister should do so-and-so and it would be fair enough criticism that we had not done anything, but it is up to the people negotiating not to make this discrimination. Every negotiation has this discrimination against women. This negotiation goes on outside my control in the area of trade union-management negotiations. We know that the Congress of Trade Unions have accepted in principle this idea of equal pay for equal work, but certainly it is not fair to ignore their big part and to stress repeatedly the part the Government could play in making changes in employment directly under Government control.

However, I recently said at a meeting of women who are very interested in this, that I did not think the community was yet ready for equal pay for equal work for women. I got out of it alive but not much along with it. The fact is that there are reasons why we should have equal pay for equal work and one is in our interest in becoming part of the European Economic Community. Once we become parties to the Treaty of Rome, we will undertake to create a situation wherein a woman will be entitled in law to equal pay for equal work. The other countries which are part of the Community have not got very far in this. Anyway, in our circumstances, we would seek some interim situation if we did become part of the Community because to bring about a situation of equal pay for equal work for women involves many problems, not the least of which is money.

The amount of money involved— and I say this to Deputy Larkin and other Labour Deputies who spoke about the lower paid workers and equal pay for equal work: if you are going to give more to the woman worker and to the lower paid workers, someone will have to be willing to do with less. In this free negotiation situation, nobody has yet shown any signs of being willing to accept less than they can get by force. Nobody has yet said: "We will leave more for the women." I do not see any signs of this happening yet. As I say, I have stated my position on this.

The Minister is aware that this attitude goes into the professions also?

I understand where it goes.

Surely this is a matter primarily for a principle to be decided on by the Government as has been done in other countries?

As far as the Economic Community is concerned, I discussed this with them in Brussels and it was not so much a matter of principle as a matter of no country having a competitive advantage, by having cheap labour, over other countries. That is why the principle is there. It is nothing highfalutin.

How many have accepted the ILO Convention?

They have signed the Treaty of Rome.

Most of them accepted the ILO Convention, but not this country.

I can certainly tell you that few countries have progressed towards equal pay for equal work for women, although they have accepted the principle. However, you will get me in bad with the women.

Some questions were raised about the question of training and I mentioned that two training centres are under construction, one at Shannon and the other at Waterford, and that by the end of the year I hope to see a similar centre in operation in Galway. These are intended as pilot training centres and will be experimental. They will aim mainly at training people for semi-skilled jobs for industrial estates.

Deputy Tully asked me what I meant by retraining and what it was for. I think what he had in mind was: if you have not got jobs, why retrain people? We had this out before. Does he mean that because we do not have jobs at the moment, we should not train people? One of the big attractions for industries, and one of the means towards the expansion of jobs, is the creation of a trained, adaptable labour force. We should have all the necessary equipment and all the necessary training facilities to provide this adaptable labour force so that any industrial development will not be held up for want of skilled or semi-skilled or other people.

What industries is the Minister thinking of?

Some of them will be trained in an accelerated way for industries that would come if such-and-such skills were available. You can give broad basic training for other industries. Industries, of course, do not suddenly pop up everywhere. We must be the same as any other country that trains these workers.

Except that these other countries have the industries.

They have not. They are looking for industries, the same as we are. They are competing against us. That is the point I was trying to make. We are competing with other countries. We cannot afford, therefore, to take this attitude. There are too many people putting in their day now, saying we want full employment, and, the next moment, saying and doing things that make no contribution whatsoever towards full employment. However, we have been lecturing one another too much. I live in the hope that some day we will all stop lecturing and get down to doing our own jobs. It is easy to blame others all the time for what is not being achieved.

Somebody asked about the training of placement officers, of whom there are seven. It is intended to have a full placement service. I want to get something done quickly. The seven officers, apart from on-the-job training with those experienced in placement, have had training courses organised at which they attended lectures and at which there were personnel officers from industry and experts in interviewing techniques, and so on, and officers of the Department of Labour. All these took part. They had group discussions and visited industrial plants. The report, which I mentioned in my introductory speech, recommends a major extension of the training of placement officers. If these recommendations are accepted, some special training will be essential because numbers of these would not have had any previous experience in an employment placement service and many of them would be recruited quite raw from outside the Civil Service and from a sphere of activity in which they would not have any knowledge of this. If, as I say, the recommendations are accepted, it will be necessary to have these full training courses.

There were allegations that many employees were sacked before 1st January so that employers could avoid their responsibility under the Redundancy Payments Scheme. I have had these allegations investigated and in practically all cases I found they were without foundation. Indeed, I had a good deal of evidence that many employers deliberately kept on workers so that they would come within the scope of the scheme and get benefit, even though they could have let the employees go. If, now that the scheme is in action, an employer claims, as one Deputy alleged, that he is letting a man go for reasons other than redundancy and the worker disputes this, he can bring the matter to the appeals tribunal which the House set up under the Act.

Deputy Mullen mentioned special redundancy schemes. As I said before, I offered to set up committees and I have set up committees to investigate the possibility of special schemes. Deputy Mullen may have been interested in the catering workers or the hotel workers. I set up committees on request and I have had no request to have any action taken in respect of these workers.

I am personally very interested in the handicapped disadvantaged worker. I am certain that An Chomhairle Oiliúna and the voluntary organisations can do a great deal. I still believe that compulsion on an employer to employ a certain number of these people is not the way to the proper training and successful placement of the handicapped worker. The right approach is to encourage employers to take on such workers because of the success of these workers in a particular job.

The handicapped, children leaving school, people leaving the land, people becoming redundant, men and women working abroad, though not wanting to, all these are dependent on this country producing a situation of full employment. I am most unhappy about the progress being made and I am sometimes disappointed by the lighthearted way in which people say that solving this problem is the function of the Government alone. I believe it is a matter for the community. The Government, the different political Parties, trade unions, the workers and the employers will all have to get down to deciding for themselves if they really want full employment. We have too easily signed documents and accepted principles. If we do not put full employment, the creation of jobs in Ireland for the Irish people, ahead of a great many other real or imaginary principles, then we will not achieve it. If there were any one function above others I would have, it would be to continue exhorting the people who can have an effect on this situation to take all the actions open to them and to avoid other actions detrimental to the creation of full employment.

Vote put and agreed to.

By agreement, the further business ordered is postponed.

The Dáil adjourned at 8.25 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 22nd May, 1968.

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