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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 12 Jun 1968

Vol. 235 No. 7

Supplementary Estimate, 1968-69. - Vote 10—Civil Service Commission.

I move:

That a sum not exceeding £51,800 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1969, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Civil Service Commission and of the Local Appointments Commission.

I should like to make a few comments on this. As Deputies know, the purpose of this Estimate is to provide finance for two well-known and long-established bodies, the Civil Service Commission and the Local Appointments Commission. The function of these two bodies is of importance in recruiting the necessary staff for the Civil Service and the local authority service.

As Deputies are aware, most permanent appointments to the Civil Service are made through the Civil Service Commission. The Civil Service is growing in size, and this growth in size is due to the development of the demands made on the public service by all the different sections of the community. This, of course, means that recruitment to the Service continues to increase. In fact, we are now making appointments to the Civil Service at the rate of 3,000 a year, so the Civil Service Commission has to process an increasing number of applications annually.

The written tests now involve the correction of the papers of 11,000 or 12,000 applicants, and the interview boards have to deal with about 4,500 applicants every year. This throws an increasing burden on the Commission. That work, I think, will continue to grow as a result of some decisions I have recently taken on behalf of our young people who are interested in applying for Civil Service posts. I mentioned some of these decisions in the Budget Statement. I indicated on that occasion that entrance fees have been abolished since 1st June, 1968. Fees for the medical examination of candidates are also on the way out. I am sure these steps will be welcomed by parents of schoolchildren who are looking to the Civil Service for their careers. We are also making the following improvements: there will be visits on a wider scale to schools and universities by the staff of the Commission and, in some instances, indeed, by the staff of my Department to tell young people about the Civil Service and the careers in it; there will be attractive brochures about the competitions to be held; and we shall revise and improve the format of advertisements and make, I hope, better arrangements for the reception of the general public when they call to the Commission's officers.

Efforts are also being made to ensure that the interval between the examination and the publication of the results is a great deal shorter than it has been up to now.

That is very desirable.

All these innovations will, I hope, result in a greater number of applications for posts in the Civil Service. While they involve some extra expense, I am quite satisfied the extra expense will be well worth while.

As I am talking about this matter, I should like to say a special word of thanks to all who assist the Civil Service Commission in discharging their functions. Two groups, in particular, deserve praise in this respect—(1) the teachers who prepare the students for the examinations and (2) those many citizens who give of their time freely as members of the different interview boards.

I must say I am a little surprised to hear a Minister for Finance boast that he is taking 3,000 people a year into the Civil Service when I remember, particularly, the Minister's predecessor, in 1957, during the period of office of a Fianna Fáil Government, telling the House solemnly——

This is in-take. It is not a gross increase. People are going out at the other end.

I know; I am coming to that. I am not suggesting the Civil Service is growing at the rate of 3,000 a year. The country can stand a lot from Fianna Fáil but it could not stand that. I remember that, in 1957, the then Minister for Finance, Deputy Ryan—now Senator Ryan—came into this House and, with a flourish of trumpets, told us he would streamline the Civil Service and that we should have a complete El Dorado of governmental administration: of course, we could not possibly afford the number of civil servants we then had and of course the number could and would be brought down.

Time has passed and there has been a variety of Ministers for Finance over there. I think, without exception, in the reign of each one of them, in the period each one of them was in office, the number of civil servants has grown year by year. I have not seen the result of the last count of civil servants on 31st December last: I am sure the Minister has the information. He talks of an in-take of 3,000 civil servants. Perhaps he will tell us, for example, the number going out in the past year so that we can see how much of the number was an increase, as apart from a mere replacement.

I am a little surprised by the Minister's suggestion that the staff of the Department of Finance will give lectures on the Civil Service in schools. Without question, that is an innovation and I am not at all sure I like it. It may tend to detract from the apparent impartiality of the Commission itself. Where there is any necessity for the publication of openings and for the dissemination of information about careers, and so on, I think the Commission more properly should do this.

We have travelled a long way since the time the inception and institution of the Civil Service Commission was bitterly opposed by the Fianna Fáil Party 40 years ago. We are all glad they have grown up and educated themselves and been educated during that period. It is undesirable that anything be done that would give any impression, however remote, that the Civil Service Commission are not away and apart from ordinary departmental activities. Therefore, I dislike the idea the Minister has just indicated as an innovation.

It is highly desirable that the time between examinations and the publication of results be cut down as much as possible. I am very glad indeed to hear from the Minister that it is hoped to make that time very much shorter. I wonder if he is in a position to give the House any information on the average period involved and by how much he hopes to cut that average period with the new arrangements he has suggested.

The figure of 3,000 which I mentioned by way of interjection represents gross in-take into the Civil Service in a year. Of course, that has to be counterbalanced by retirements, resignations, and so on. I think the best thing I can do to help here is to give figures of total Civil Service numbers on 1st January in a number of recent years and indicate what increase in total numbers they represent.

1st January, 1963—29,728.

These are permanent civil servants, of course? Is that not right?

No; they include temporary postmen, and so on—the total Civil Service. I am speaking of 1st January in each case:

1964—30,383, representing an increase of 655.

1965—31,675, representing an increase of 1,292.

1966—32,609, representing an increase of 934.

1967—32,965, representing an increase of 356.

At 1st January, 1968, there were 33,688, which represented an increase of 723 on the total at the same date in the previous year.

About 700 a year average, on the figures the Minister has given us?

Something like that, yes. I do not think Deputy Sweetman need be worried about the question of members of my Department attempting to promote recruitment to the Civil Service. I think this will become a problem for us in the years ahead. The old procedure under which the brightest students in the school automatically opted for the Civil Service is gone and we now shall have to try to attract people to apply for Civil Service posts at all levels. There are some very critical situations regarding recruitment at different levels already and it is clear that this is the sort of problem that will become more and more accentuated.

I recently attended a school debate where a civil servant, I think a member of the staff of the Department of Finance, was present at the invitation of the school and he gave an excellent discourse on the Civil Service as a career and the opportunities it offered. I thought this was a very good thing. What I did say was that visits by the staff of my Department are, I think, in the main, usually confined to the universities. I think members of the staff of the Department of Finance have always gone to the universities in this connection.

I took the Minister to mean that he was saying that this would be in relation specifically to advertising, if you like to use the word, that there were going to be examinations by the Commissioners——

If it is in relation to the general scope of careers, that is a different story.

It is to tell young people about the possibilities.

That is all right.

Vote put and agreed to.
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