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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 4 Dec 1968

Vol. 237 No. 11

Finance (No. 2) Bill, 1968: Second Stage.

I move: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

The main purpose of this Bill is to give statutory effect to the Financial Resolutions brought before the House in Committee on Finance on 5th November, 1968. The provisions of the Bill are described briefly in the explanatory memorandum which was circulated with the text of the Bill.

Sections 2 and 3 provide for the increases of 2d in the duty on the pint of beer and the glass of spirits; sections 4 and 5 relate to the increase in the tobacco duty of the equivalent of 3d on the packet of 20 standard-size plain cigarettes and also to the duty on stocks of duty-paid tobacco held by manufacturers on the afternoon of 5th November, 1968. Sections 6 and 7 make provision for the increase in the rate of the wholesale tax from five per cent to ten per cent.

Section 8 provides an exemption from tax for the premium of three per cent payable on the maturity date of the proposed investment bonds. At present, changes in the rates of interest payable to depositors in respect of savings in the Post Office Savings Bank and trustee savings banks are made by legislation. As a result, substantial delays can occur before desirable adjustments are made. Section 9 provides for fixing these rates by regulations. This will make it possible for interest rates on small savings to follow general interest rate trends more closely.

The Financial Resolutions from which this Bill stems were fully discussed in the House in Committee on Finance and I have dealt at length, on several occasions recently, with the background to these measures. I do not think, therefore, that further elucidation is called for at this stage. At Committee Stage, I will gladly go into any points of detail that Deputies may wish to raise.

I now ask the House to read the Bill a Second Time.

As we have had a second Budget this year, so now we have Finance (No. 2) Bill. As the Taoiseach indicated, this is the legislative proposal under which Deputies will vote new taxation on beer, spirits and tobacco, increase the wholesale tax and generally carry out the details of the Budget recently introduced.

It is worth recalling and noting that once again in this Finance Bill, as has so often happened in the past, fresh taxation is being imposed on beer, spirits and tobacco. Deputies who were in the House in 1963 can no doubt recall, perhaps with some irony, the case then made by the Minister for Finance in regard to the old standbys of beer, tobacco and spirits. They will recall that the Minister for Finance then made the case that these sources of taxation had dried up — that so much taxation had been imposed on beer, spirits and tobacco that saturation point had been reached.

It was in those circumstances, in that year, in that Budget, that a new form of taxation known as the turnover tax was introduced. I wonder, recalling that, recalling those views expressed nearly six years ago, what credence can be attached by Deputies and people generally to considered statements by a Minister for Finance. Six years ago, saturation point had been reached in relation to beer, spirits, tobacco and petrol, but despite that, in almost each year since, new burdens by way of taxation have been imposed on these commodities.

This year, this Finance Bill will have the effect in a full year of increasing taxation by close on £20 million. In any one year, indeed, in any group of years, an increase in taxation of that extent would be regarded as significant and burdensome. To have an increase of this size imposed by what was canvassed as a mini-budget—almost an afterthought, a by-the-way at the end of the financial year—is surely indicative of the gravest possible disarray in Government planning and Government thinking. Increases in taxation to the extent of £20 million, imposed in the second half of the financial year, seem to indicate that the Government have no ability to foresee the budgetary requirements of this country in the short space of 12 months.

It would be no harm to remind Deputies that in the first Budget of this year the Minister for Finance, concluding his Financial Statement, had this to say:

The budget underlines the Government's confidence in the nation's ability to maintain a high rate of economic progress even in difficult international conditions. At a time when many countries whose economies are much stronger and more diversified than ours have had to accept severe budgetary measures and stiff economic policies, we are placing our faith in expansion and in the capacity of our people to meet from their own resources any challenges the year may bring.

They were fine phrases, fine sentiments, indicative of an optimistic expansionist approach as far as the economy of this country is concerned—indicative of an aim and a will and a desire to get this country punching forward to meet the competition and the difficulties of trade and commerce.

Now, what credence is to be attached to these sentiments that only appear to be fine, lofty, imaginative? Is it the truth that they were, in fact, so much froth and bubbles with nothing behind them by way of Government plan or Government will? It certainly so appears when, a few months later, this second Budget has to be introduced imposing £20 million in extra taxation, in damping down the fires of commerce, of business activity, in giving the people and the economy a fresh, bitter dose of deflation. and in so doing extinguishing any optimism that was beginning to be felt this year, optimism that we had got out of the bleak, difficult period of the last 18 months and were beginning to move forward again.

I notice that in this morning's paper the Federated Union of Employers expressed their view on the current economic situation and on the necessity for this second Budget. They criticised Government planning which led to the increases and they referred in particular to a lack of foresight in respect of national finances. They went on to charge that the Government should have known last April the cost of wage and salary increases in the public services within one or two percentage points; the acreage under wheat; the probable size of the deficit in the Post Office; the demands and possible concessions to the agricultural community, and the gap between wages and salary awards and the growth in productivity. Having referred to the announcement of the Third Programme for Economic Expansion, they go on to say:

The Autumn Budget is a poor prelude for it. Many will ask what is the purpose of planning for four years if Budget policies, designed for a period of one year, have to be torn up after six months.

After the early retirement of the Second Programme cynicism about the value of national planning has been mounting.

That is a serious indictment, coming from a responsible source, of this Government, of the way they have been managing our affairs and of their standing with the business community.

We were always concerned or we should always have been concerned in this country with the building up of confidence among our own people in our own ability to survive. Two major political Parties in this Dáil sprung from the idealism of the late President Arthur Griffith and from his movement, Sinn Féin. Sinn Féin taught the message that it was by our own efforts eventually we would and could survive. That philosophy of Sinn Féin had, and I hope will continue to have, an important effect on our character and on the way we shape up to our national problems.

One of the difficulties and problems in the last decade or so has been to convince people here at home who are engaged in any form of production or taking any part in the economic development of the country to have confidence in the plans and long-term programmes laid down and in the attainment of the targets set out in these plans. That necessity was fully recognised in this House when the First Programme was announced some seven years ago. It has been one of the problems in the last seven years to get people to realise that if there were continued efforts we could survive as a viable economic unit.

From time to time in relation to the Second Programme we indicated certain areas in which the targets and the aims were not being achieved and could not be achieved because the methods and policies being adopted were unsound. We advocated consistently that, for the Second Programme to move forward, permeating confidence among the people, it was essential to have periodic, realistic reviews of the progress being made and of the methods and policies being adopted. Our representations in that regard were spurned and refused by the Government. The result was that in the early part of this year the Second Programme, which had been creaking and tottering, finally collapsed leaving nothing in its place. It collapsed to such an extent that it sent out with its collapse waves of dismay, of suspicion and of discontent throughout the business community. It confirmed many weak people in the lack of confidence which they had in their own country and in their own country's ability to survive. Here today we have the Federated Union of Employers coming out and instancing as another example of failure to plan and lack of foresight and lack of ability and efficiency in Government the fact that the Government are incapable of carrying out even the simple task of the national housekeeping for a period of 12 months. It is a serious indictment and it is one which, regrettably, is perfectly and amply justified in present circumstances.

We find now that in the spring of this year this Government were incapable of foreseeing the result on the Public Service of the wage and salary increases which had been commenced. We find also that, although the Budget statement of the spring of this year refers to wheat and milk and dairy increases, it was not possible for the Government accurately and reasonably to anticipate what the cost would be to the Exchequer. Budgeting is no more than a reasonable exercise in foresight. We find that, in these respects again, the Government failed to measure up to what was required. That would be tolerable, it would be perhaps something that could be borne by the people, were it not for the fact that in present circumstances this Budget and this Finance Bill contrived to bring about a very profound dampening effect on the general economy.

We are at a time when the Taoiseach has had the lot of experiencing, particularly in recent weeks, that our economic circumstances and needs require that we should be pushing forward vigorously and with determination to win new markets for our products. We certainly cannot continue to be tied to the sick man of Europe. If that is to remain our horizon then our people will not find a way of life in their own country. We have got to get out beyond the English market. We have got to think with optimism and enthusiasm, have fresh peaks to climb and fresh areas to try.

That should have been our disposition now. Had we a Government that were doing their job we should have had a vibrant, determined business community working in co-operation with the trade unions, helping to push the things we have to sell over wider and wider areas. Instead, what have we? We have a tattered free trade agreement with the sick economy of England, an arrangement which permits us no room for manoeuvre, an arrangement which causes problems and difficulties for our people and our country from time to time. Not only that but by our own positive action, by Government error, lack of foresight and mistake we are actually depressing business activity in our own country at this very time.

The situation is so serious that the interests of the country would be much better served by a general election and the possibility at least of a new Government being selected forthwith. There are £20 million in increased taxation. Leaving aside the broader questions of economics and all the rest of it which are bandied about so glibly by so many Deputies in this House in language not frequently understood, even, by the ordinary man in the street, what does £20 million mean to the ordinary man? The price of his beer and tobacco has gone up. If he drives a car it will cost him more. The wholesale tax is increased so that the price of goods will go up.

What effect will this have? The cost of living will be forced up significantly by those Budget increases. It will be just another part of the long war of attrition which successive Governments in this country have waged on the real value of money. The cost of living is going up. That, perhaps, will be tolerated by those in the higher salary brackets and by those classes who, in any event, apparently have the power to shake some golden apples from the tree and recompense themselves for any rise in living or other costs but there are people who cannot do that. The social welfare recipient, the old age pensioner, the person who is sick and in need and who has to depend on unemployment benefit of one kind or another or, indeed, on unemployment assistance receive no cushioning in this Budget. There is no benefit for the social welfare recipient to compensate for this new spiral in costs which will be set up with regard to living costs.

That is unjust. Not only is it unjust but it is dangerous. It is wrong to have a situation in this country in which once a mistake has been made and new taxes are imposed the poor, the underprivileged and the distressed have to be the one section who will have to pay and who will have no means whatsoever of compensating for what is involved although others will. An increase in the price of beer, spirits and so on will hit the worker. He will feel the pinch of rising prices if it affects his pay packet. Is it to be suggested that the worker is to bear that patriotically and with tolerance and do nothing about it? Even if it is so suggested it will not happen.

As a result of those blunders, this lack of foresight or whatever it is and whatever the reason, I can see a situation in which we will have a fresh spiral of wages chasing prices until our competitive position in the markets to which we should have been aspiring becomes worse and worse. However, although we can speak here at length, we are merely confronting a Parliament, two sides, the Government side and the Opposition and nobody will be open to conviction or the votes cannot be changed. I wanted merely to say what I have said so that it may be regarded as a protest on behalf of my own Party, on behalf of the main Opposition Party here, to the deplorable bungling which has gone on in this financial year.

What the next Budget will bring no one knows. I sincerely hope that this has not been another exercise in politics, gimmickry. I sincerely hope it has not been any Machiavellian scheme to bear taxation now so as to appear in the role of the fairy godmother in a few months time. If that has been done, then political expediency will have taken the place of patriotism and responsibility because what is being done now, what has been done in this Budget, will have caused serious harm throughout the country, to the economy and it will take us a considerable time to recover from that.

I hope that this latest example of stop-go financing will be the last and that sooner or later we can have a broad economic plan, a plan which will contain recognisable and attainable targets, a plan which will command the confidence of our people because it will be something that they will understand. It is only when we get our policies along that kind of lines that we can make the steady systematic progress which is so essential for a small country like ours in the world as it is.

We cannot afford to have a repetition of what has taken place over recent years—the sun shining one moment and the black clouds blotting it out the next. We cannot afford to have the situation in which a movement towards greater employment is reversed with more and more unemployment. We cannot afford to have a repetition of the series of recessions and advances that our economy has been subjected to. It all stems from the fact that this Government have been there too long, have been in office for far too long. They have grown stale in relation to their duties. They lack a plan. They lack a policy. They have no idea even in relation to a 12-month period where exactly they are going. That has caused harm to the country. The people have been made to suffer. I hope it will not be continued for very much longer.

When, some years ago, the system of introducing a second Budget in the autumn was started, somebody said that the spring Budget to carry on the nation's housekeeping for the year was not sacrosanct, that there was no reason why one Budget should regulate the economy for the year and that there was nothing at all wrong with having two Budgets. That might be fair enough as long as it is recognised that that is the system which is being adopted but it is just not good enough to do as was done this year, that is, to adopt a Budget in the spring, the Minister for Finance saying that unless something very extraordinary occurred there would be no need to introduce further taxation during the year, and then in the autumn to have what was described by the Government side as a mini-Budget which turned out to be almost as big as the spring Budget.

I should like to bring to the notice of the Taoiseach and his Government the fact that there is a very serious position in this country. It does appear as if the Government feel that as long as they find enough money to plug little holes as they go along, the boat will continue to float. It does appear that we have reached the stage now, and I regret having to say this, that the Government are living from hand to mouth, that the situation has become so serious that there does not appear to be any forward planning of any kind. The former Taoiseach, Deputy Lemass, used to say that everything was fine around the corner but we never seem to go around that corner.

One of the things which the Government should know is that apart from the row which has been dragged on unnecessarily, I believe, by the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries, with the National Farmers Association, there is the problem that the only form of production farmers are being encouraged to go into at the present time is of something which it is almost impossible to sell. Milk and milk products are being sold on a heavy subsidy everywhere. Yet, it does not appear as if all the Government experts have ever given any time to the question of finding something which the farmers could substitute for that, something which would not cost the colossal amount of money which this is costing.

I know the Minister for Finance, when he was Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries a few years ago, was terribly anxious to get into the EEC for one reason only, that is, as he said in an unguarded moment, that it would relieve the Department of Finance of the heavy subsidy on milk and milk products. His one idea was, to heck with everything else; if we can get in there and find somebody else carrying the subsidy for us, we will have a lot of money to play around with. It did not turn out that way. We have the situation that production of milk and milk products is being encouraged, is, in fact, being subsidised heavily, and there is no plan to replace it or even to reduce the necessity for the farmer to continue producing milk.

Then there is the question of wheat. There was a very reasonable question asked here yesterday. Is wheat going to cost the country a lot of money in a successful year? This year wheat in this country was very good, mainly for two reasons, first that because there was not so much wheat grown the previous year and there was no forward planning or advice from the Government, everybody who could do so went into wheat production. This has been the pattern down the years.

I am afraid Deputy Tully is going outside the ambit of debate on this Bill. As the Deputy is no doubt aware, the scope of debate is the Government's taxation proposals and the effect those proposals have on the general economy but matters pertaining to the Estimates would not be relevant.

Am I not in order in referring to what I consider to be measures which would reduce or obviate the necessity to introduce measures of this kind?

This rule must suddenly have become the rule because the previous speaker was allowed to range very widely. However, I bow to your ruling.

I followed the last speaker very carefully. He was in order. He referred to taxation and the general effect on the economy. The question of milk prices, and so on, are matters for the Estimate, as the Deputy will appreciate.

I am afraid I do not appreciate but if you say that it is out of order, I will have to obey your ruling. I do consider it unfair, however, when I say that the general economy of the country is not being planned and try to show how I think it is not being planned and am ruled out of order on a financial measure because of that. It appears to me as if the confines of the debate will be made so narrow that criticism of the Government will not be allowed. I regret that that is so.

The Deputy should not make these charges.

It is not a charge.

These have been the rules of debate on the Finance Bill since the Dáil was established.

I am not making a charge against the Ceann Comhairle. I am making a charge against the rules. If these are the rules which govern the debate, then I think the sooner they are changed, the better. May I say, if that is so, that the proposals which are put before the House by the Acting Minister for Agriculture——

I am not acting Minister for Agriculture.

I am sorry. I meant the acting Minister for Finance —are, according to him, being put before the House for the specific purpose of providing for certain things which he named. If the situation now is that while we can discuss items mentioned but cannot discuss items for which it is supposed to be provided, it does seem to stultify the debate completely.

The Deputy cannot have a general debate on matters pertaining to the Estimates.

If the Chair is ruling that a debate on the lines which were common, as far as I know, on this Bill is not permissible, there is no point in trying to debate it. Therefore, I will not detain the House.

I should like to make it clear that such debate was not common on the Finance Bill and the Chair intervened on all occasions when a Deputy overstepped the mark.

The previous speaker used almost exactly the same phraseology as I did and was not ruled out of order. I do not want to get into an argument with the Chair, but if that is the line, it does not seem to be right.

The Chair does not agree with the Deputy.

The Deputy had nothing to say.

The Deputy never says anything. He is judging other people by his own standards.

Anybody who was present at the opening of this debate will have noticed that the remarks of the Taoiseach were not very extensive. That is quite understandable, because the Taoiseach is holding the baby in the financial and economic arena for the Minister for Finance who is, unfortunately, not able to be here himself. However, what strikes me about the financial set-up in this country is that we are simply ambling along and when we find ourselves short of money somebody comes in here—the Taoiseach on this occasion—and imposes heavy extra taxation, this time to the tune of £20 million.

No real reason has been given to the Dáil by any member of the Government or any Member on that side of the House as to why this taxation is necessary. The only reason I can recollect being given was that the weather was somewhat different from what they expected it to be. Responsible people in this country who understand finance, such as bankers and industrialists, feel that we are gradually getting more and more into a difficult situation here with no future or no outlet whatsoever. The Taoiseach has not attempted to justify from an economic point of view the imposition of this £20 million on the economy; no Minister who spoke on the recent Budget debate has endeavoured to do that either. What they have simply said is: "We find ourselves in a difficult situation, and, therefore, we have to look for the money. We are sorry but we have to impose this taxation"—Fianna Fáil are always sorry whenever they have to do anything in this line—"but it is necessary to do it."

If we are to succeed and to justify ourselves as a self-governing unit we have to be economically sound. Anybody, even an elementary school child, will recognise that the imposition of these taxes must have one direct effect, to put up the cost of living. Already before these impositions have been felt by the public at large, we have a rise in the cost of living. I was in a house the other day where there was a husband and wife and six children sitting down to a meal; I just came in to see them about something. The recent increases of 4d per pound in the price of tea and in the price of bread will seriously affect such people, before the effects of this Finance Bill are felt. What is going to happen after the 1st January when this 10 per cent wholesale tax becomes operative? Looking at it even from the best point of view, one must agree there is bound to be a substantial increase in the cost of living.

Deputy O'Higgins referred very rightly to our total dependence on the British market. The Taoiseach will agree, if he has ever bothered to listen to what I have said or read any of the speeches I have ever made, that I have been pleading for the last six years that we should get away from this total dependence on the British economy. The whole policy of this Government is based on that line of thought. The present economic difficulties in Britain are due to one thing and one thing alone: the high costs of production have priced them out of world markets. As Deputy O'Higgins said, Britain is the sick man of Europe. What we are doing is basing our economy, our prices and our wage standards almost entirely on the British ones. Our costs of production are so high that we are in a position only to export to Britain if she allows us to continue to do so.

If as a result of the recent British action, our exports are seriously affected and if we want to export to other markets, can we be competitive? The Government should be able to tell the House whether what I am saying is right or wrong? Can we be competitive in our exports to European countries? Can we be competitive in our exports to the United States of America? I am talking about the new impositions that are being placed on the economy. Those are things on which the people should be informed. I am sure the Taoiseach has expert advisers on finance. I do not agree with the advice they have given if it is on that advice the Government have acted.

We cannot escape the fact that we are getting into a very dangerous situation. It is time the Government recognised that we are not a great nation and we cannot stand a certain level of taxation unless we are able to counteract it by increased production and exports. The Minister for Industry and Commerce will tell us that our exports are growing all the time and that our employment is improving. Industrial exports may have grown to a small extent but they are low compared with those of other countries and although they have increased somewhat they are not sufficient to carry the economy or carry the load of taxation which is being imposed.

For that reason, even with the most optimistic outlook it is quite obvious there will be further pressure for increases in wages and, in justice to the people, there must be a further claim for increased social benefits. How will the £20 million cover this? The £20 million is already damaging our economy although its full effects are not apparent but when it begins to act generally on the balance of the economy there must be further demands for more Government expenditure. In other words, the dog is chasing his tail all the time and there is no answer to the problem.

If those who advise the Minister have an answer I do not know what it is, nor does anybody on this side of the House. We began with the turnover tax which was supposed to be a simple equitable tax imposed on everybody. That began the spiral but, of course, we do not go back to the turnover tax because the Government know that to impose direct taxation on those lines would mean a repetition of what they had before when the businessmen were out in the street marching. Therefore, they put on a wholesale tax which it is suggested does not touch food or the necessaries of life and so on. Of course, it affects all these because if you impose a wholesale tax you impose a manufacturing tax and the charge will be thrown back on the public. My guess is as good as that of anybody else and I say that this Finance Bill will not give the country a 5 per cent increase although certain things are excluded from it. In the final analysis when the bill is fully paid, probably not in the time of the 18th Dáil but in that of the 19th Dáil, whoever will be sitting on the hot seat of Finance then, the bill will be considerable.

At one time when these taxes were imposed I felt there was a possibility that the Government were trying to collect a few pounds for the kitty so that then they might be in a happier position to face the public in the next spring Budget as a sort of general Father Christmas. It seems as if that theory may have been exploded because of the recent event in relation to what I might describe as the complete sell-out to British economic interests and we shall probably find ourselves in further difficulties. I think I am right in quoting the Taoiseach—I have not got the reference at the moment—in a major speech quite recently in his native Cork, I think, in which he said it might be possible that the taxes which they had imposed and which were so strongly criticised by the Opposition might not be sufficient. Does that mean that we shall not be able to last out without coming back——

I did not say that anywhere, neither in Cork nor elsewhere. The Deputy must be thinking of somebody else.

It was some responsible member of the Government. I read it in the papers but if the Taoiseach says he did not say it and if he assures me that there will be no further taxation, which would be very difficult for him to do in the light of recent circumstances——

He would not have time to put on any more taxation.

It is not so far from April now. Does the Deputy think he will be there in April?

He will not.

That remains to be seen. The Minister for Finance, Deputy Haughey, when introducing his Budget last spring mentioned that the Schedule B tax on farms was going to be abolished with certain exceptions. He also mentioned that Schedule A tax would be abolished and if I remember rightly he said that there would be finance regulations to deal with that in the autumn. We are now in December, having completed the autumn, and I see nothing in this Finance Bill regarding those proposals. Perhaps, the Taoiseach will tell us, when replying, if what I regard as a very necessary and useful remission of taxation will become effective or not, whether it is one of the things being shelved in the general financial chaos in which the Government find themselves.

To my mind, remission of Schedule A tax would give a tremendous incentive to private enterprise in the building trade and would save the Government and those responsible for budgetary proposals vast sums of money. It was really a good piece of political thinking although not as yet legislation. A considerable number of people would be interested to know the answer to my question.

There is no doubt that in the not very distant future we shall face a great increase in the cost of living which will be a great source of embarrassment to the Government. The Taoiseach knows I am a friendly critic and the only friendly advice I can give the Government is to get out as quickly as possible before they meet with utter disaster.

It astonishes me that Dáil Éireann should approach this Budget without stating the one clear, fundamental fact: this Budget is the price of inflation and so long as inflation continues to recur you will have a repetition of these Budgets. Deputy Esmonde has rightly described the state of the nation as that of the dog chasing his own tail. The Government have announced that they regard it as acceptable that there should be annual inflation of approximately 4 per cent. Does anybody realise what that means, that in any 20-year period 80 per cent of the value of money goes down the drain?

Take the price of tobacco alone. I have an old friend here in Dublin who has not many comforts now. He said to me: "My God, Mr. Dillon, the plug of tobacco is gone up to 9/2d." When I first sold a plug of tobacco in my shop the price was 1/6d. The man to whom I was speaking is a man who has very few frills or luxuries in his life. Very occasionally, I think he would take a pint but the criterion would be if he could afford it. There is one—for him —virtually indispensable amelioration of his existence and that is a blast of his pipe and the way this strikes him is: "My God, Mr. Dillon, the plug of tobacco is gone up to 9/2d."

I suspect that the Taoiseach was sympathetic to this point of view which is extremely difficult to communicate to the people. Inflation is always popular while it is going on but to those who understand its nature it is the supreme evil because it is the poor who suffer, the poor who do not know how to grapple with the process of inflation; the labouring man who is given an increase in his wages and who likes the feeling of getting more money and is delighted to hear his wages are going up by 10/- or 15/- a week. That gives him a warm comfortable glow. It is true that the trade unions are negotiating wage increases and fringe benefits. The whole functioning of their organisations is there for all to see. Imagine anyone who understands the function of money allowing himself to be crushed by the steamroller of inflation. That is what maddens me.

The Taoiseach became very indignant with me recently because he said I was the first person ever to speak in disparaging terms of a national loan while it was at issue. I have said twice in the course of the past 12 months that I could not, in conscience, subscribe any longer to the practice of recommending fixed interest loans to poor people. I said recently in this House that in the last decade no rational manager of money has retained in his portfolio any fixed interest Government stock but what happens is that these stocks are subscribed to to a great extent by the banks—the only deposits with them are the deposits of poor people—also, the industrial insurance companies and the only people who ensure with the industrial insurance companies are wage earners and poor people.

I know, and everybody who knows anything about money, knows that publicity hunting organisations will subscribe a quarter of a million pounds to the national loan but they will have a standing order with their broker to unload as quickly as possible. The only ones who retain it are the industrial insurance companies and the unfortunates who have been persuaded by some of us in past years to put their modest savings into it and they hold them in order to recover the redemption price because they cannot bear to sell the loans at 62 or 63 per cent of their face value.

Who is going to pay all the tax in this Budget? Who is going to pay the wholesale tax? How many Deputies in this House have asked themselves what are the commodities on which the wholesale tax will fall? A woman buying sheets for the house, buying towels or any of the other things that are required to keep the home neat and tidy will have to pay. Our friends will have to pay 9/2d for their plug of tobacco. The poor have long given up drinking spirits but they will pay more for a pint if they can afford one at all. They have no means of avoiding the consequences of these kinds of taxes. It would be true to say that I have and that every other Deputy in this House has. I can buy stocks and shares that I know will react to inflation by giving me capital appreciation. I know I can buy land. I know men who have been buying land ever since the Government made up their minds that inflation was to be an annual characteristic of our life. These people make lots of money in this way. They can afford to buy brandy and whiskey and any other luxury one may care to name because they know what the inevitable consequences of inflation are.

I admit that the Government are not peculiar in surrendering to this socalled controlled inflation; there is no such thing as controlled inflation. Inflation cannot be controlled once a Government bases its whole philosophy on the assumption that controlled inflation is a desirable thing. They are working on slippery slopes which bring them ultimately to catastrophy. This Budget is merely one step on that road and it is about time that the people opened their eyes to this. It is not a question of a series of Budgets raising taxation but it is the inevitable step towards the substitution of authoritarian government for freedom. That is what this policy means and that is where it will lead us if it continues.

This issue has been fought in the world time and time again. I remember my old friend, Congressman Bourke Cockran of the USA fighting his own Party—he had been a lifelong Democrat—and defeating his own Party in 1898 because he said that since he was a Democrat he would continue to be a Democrat and he would fight the defence of sound money in order to preserve democracy in the world. He was profoundly right. It is very painful to have to leave one's own Party, particularly in a country like the USA where loyalties to Parties are so strong. What alarms me today is that so few people see where the present policy is leading us. There is not the slightest use in coming in here and denouncing the Government for imposing tax upon tax if we all subscribe to the economic philosophy which makes that course inevitable.

I want to warn Oireachtas Éireann now that this is nothing compared to what it will be during the next five years if the present dialectic is pursued. When these costs bite there will immediately be demands for increased social services and for increased wages. These, in turn, will create a situation in which the Government will have to meet increased charges. The Government will find themselves in a dilemma if they are to keep the public service manned; they will have to compete for personnel and after holding the line as long as they can they ultimately will give way and an immense addition will be made to the total cost of the growing bureaucracy. It is no reflection on the bureaucracy. The plain fact is that the graduates are not prepared to accept less than the going rates. The best young men from the universities will not go into the Civil Service at less than industrial salary rates and if we have not a good Civil Service the whole machinery of the Government will break down. But, as we get it the cost will rise.

The plain truth is that we are living in a highly competitive world and the way catastrophe creeps upon us is that as those tax rates rise and rise, and wage rates and salary rates rise and with them our transport rates rise, and everything else rises, as costs accumulate our position as a competitive exporter is steadily eroding. But, we are not fighting in the competitive export markets of the world on the basis of equality with our competitors. More and more in every great exporting country of the world the exporting industries are being automated. They are being automated on the basis of a huge domestic market, such as the USA or the EEC or the somewhat less closely integrated common market of EFTA. Each of these provide a domestic basis upon which automated industry can be established.

We belong to none of these organisations. We are fighting in export markets, in automated economies, which have become successively and rapidly more and more automated, with our bare hands. Mind you, competing with automation with our bare hands is handicap enough; but if on top of that we apply the burden of a steadily increasing cost structure this country will collapse. That collapse will be largely concealed for some time by the fact that we are still essentially a primary producing country. As money depreciates in value the price of cattle and livestock increases. Signs on it, as most Deputies know, the price of cattle in the last 12 months has never been better. This is concealing the growing difficulty into which we are drifting on the industrial front.

There is no use blaming the Government if we are not prepared to blame the cause. There is no use telling the Government they are right in following an inflationary policy and then complain about its inevitable consequence. There is only one criterion by which you can judge as to whether the economy has a desirable and safe future. That is whether its money is stable and its cost of living stable too. People have asked themselves how has America achieved her miracle of economic prosperity. The answer is by expanding production with a substantially stable cost of living. Up to eighteen months ago with the impact of the South-East Asian war, the Vietnam War, America had achieved the economic miracle of steadily and dramatically expanding her national production while maintaining a relatively stable cost of living. The same is true of Germany.

The reason for it in Germany is that the Germans have gone through the crucifixion of uncontrolled inflation and the whole German people think of inflation with horror. The Germans save and work and they do not want to run into huge adverse balances in their annual Budget. Signs on them. After the ghost of Lord Keynes has been capering about Great Britain and Northern Ireland, as they call themselves, capering about France and the rest of Europe, after the President of France has been shaking his golden stick, overnight the fate of Europe made Germany raise the value of her money to enable everybody else in Europe to carry on with the capering. I could not withhold admiration for the President of France when he said that it was an absurdity to suggest that the French Republic who are gold-plated should be asked to revalue their currency.

L'état c'est moi.

The President of France is a remarkable old gentleman. Once you surrender to mob rule and accept inflation under the threat of riot, overnight what seems to be a golden rock can disintegrate into powder, whereas the stolid old Germans pounding along on the simple proposition that you pay as you go and you save a part of anything you earn and you do not depreciate the currency now find themselves the most prosperous community in Europe, the highest paid people in Europe with the highest level of social security in Europe and with every other national in Europe asking them to raise the value of their currency not to save Germany but to save France, to save Holland, to save Belgium and to save Italy.

Is there not something queer about that? Is it not remarkable that the one country in Europe with a sound currency, which consistently rejected inflation as a loathsome thing, has not only 100 per cent employment but has millions of depressed Europeans from Turkey, Italy, Spain and the east, all working for her? They are providing under their law that anyone from Turkey, Spain, Greece or Italy, or anywhere else who comes to work in Germany must not be excluded from their social services programme. It is an essential condition of the employment of an alien in Germany that he will be in a position of absolute equality with them as a German national working in Germany. Is that not a better condition for a people to be in than to be facing interim Budgets every year? Is that not a better position for a nation to be in than to be in the situation we are in of a dog chasing its own tail?

My mind goes back to the days when the Taoiseach was Minister for Finance. I do not think he will charge me with being derisory if I recall his introductory words on the occasion of the first interim Budget he ever introduced in this House as Minister for Finance. He opened his speech by saying: "What went wrong with my Budget of last April?" I do not believe he knew. I want to tell him that nothing went wrong with his Budget on that occasion which did not go wrong with Deputy Haughey's Budget on this occasion. It is the same old story all over again. In some places, they call it the policy of "Stop-go". In other places they call it the policy of The Programme for Economic Expansion. It always has a lovely name. It always has a beautiful description.

There was an old Chinese emperor who lived 3,000 B.C. who embarked on precisely the same policy. I think in those days it was described as the policy of Sharing the Radiance of the Eternal Sun. The ridiculous thing is that it is as old as history. It always has the same end. The tragedy is that it seems to be impossible to forewarn people of the inevitable consequences. I do not despair. We, in public life, sometimes stand rebuked that nobody shouted "Stop". I am now saying "Stop". I am warning you that you are on the road not to economic catastrophe alone—that is bad enough —but also on the road to the loss of freedom. Because that lesson is branded on the Germans as if it were branded with a red-hot iron, they are now the most prosperous country in Europe. They turned their back on inflation and said "Never again".

I shall not finish without recalling to this House what inflation means to freedom. This Budget is simply one step on a road which leads inevitably to a certain end. Sooner or later, the floodgates will break open and inflation will gather in velocity. When that time comes, nobody trusts money any more. The net result is that thousands and thousands of small people are wiped out. But, while they are being wiped out, nobody seems to care. The elderly widow living on a modest invested income; the retired person who is trying to live on a pension: they simply go down the drain and they die of gradual starvation as their fixed income dwindles in value.

As our competitive situation declines, unemployment will begin to grow. The factories, which operate on the assumption that they will be able to sell their goods abroad, will find that they will not be able to do so. Then there will be demonstrations. Wherever demonstrations begin — whether of students, the unemployed, and so on —the international Communist Party will turn up. We have them in Dublin now. When perfectly decent people— whether they be students, trade unionists or workers — who have a deep sense of grievance and who begin to feel that Dáil Éireann is forgetting them—"We gave them £2,500 a year but what do they care now for us? They do not feel the pinch"—decide to demonstrate, the international Communist conspiracy, which is designed to wipe out freedom, rears its ugly head. Its only purpose is to make us the creatures of the State instead of the State being our creature. The philosophy of the Communists is that the people were made for the State, not the State for the people. People who are driven to exasperation take to the streets and those who want to see freedom perish urge upon them that that is a good thing to do. The method employed is that the genuine, honest demonstrator, who has no purpose other than to make his grievance felt and heard, marches—and the Communists get in behind him.

Sooner or later, that march is confronted by the Garda Síochána in this country or by the police in some other country. The leaders of that march do not want to break the law. Their only purpose is to bring their grievance under public observation. But, behind them—they are always well behind them—the elements of which I speak proceed to attack the police by hurling golf balls with nails stuck in them, bits of rock, stones, bottles and so on. Eventually the police, in order to discharge their duty, are bound to repel the mob. The impact of police action falls on the decent people and, within half an hour of the necessary police action being taken, there is a meeting proceeding a quarter of a mile away to protest against police brutality.

I am not speaking for the Fine Gael Party now: I am speaking for myself because this will make me unpopular with the Fourth Estate. You will get some bloody nuisance with a camera or some fellow who is out to get his signed piece on "Riots in Dublin" on the front page of, say, The Daily Express and he gets a clout during the proceedings and writes a piece, a mile long, about the “savage brutality” of “Constable Pat Twohig”, who is well known to be a mild, inoffensive fellow who never hurt anybody in his life but who, I suppose, got a kick in the groin and maybe a crack on the head and, in trying to keep order, lashed out at somebody—and immediately there is a colleague trying to take a photograph of the blood, if it is not tomato juice, on the person's head. Deputies may smile or laugh. It is all good fun—but watch what happens. That is carefully organised and spread throughout the world and, ultimately, the police in any country say to themselves: “Why should we be made the tools of these people?” We know perfectly well that 95 per cent of this is propaganda. There is no talk about stones, no talk about bags of faeces thrown at the police, or the language used to provoke any fellow with a hot temper. There is no talk of the fact that nobody went to hospital, that nobody was seriously hurt. And the police begin to say: “Why should we carry the can?” Now that is exactly what the Communists are looking for; they want to strike from the hands of constitutional Government the weapons with which a Government must ultimately keep control. Once they have done that, if they succeed in doing that, no matter what Government are in office, the immediate sequel is anarchy and, out of anarchy, all history will tell us, people will accept any form of Government rather than anarchy.

At this stage, I feel the Deputy is getting far from the——

I sympathise with the Leas-Cheann Comhairle and I will conclude this dialectic in a moment and come right back to the point. Out of anarchy you get a Government of the extreme right, like the Nazi Government in Germany, or a Government of the extreme left, which certain people hope to precipitate in France if they succeed in overthrowing General de Gaulle. That is why I say this Budget is another step on the road not only to economic crisis but to political crisis, a political crisis which puts the freedom of us all in desperate peril. And there is no budgetary procedure which will rescue this country, or any other country, from this danger unless the people can be persuaded to realise that the only means of putting an end to interim Budgets such as we are discussing here today is to restore stable money and abolish inflation and that will not be an easy thing to do. But the Swiss have done it. They are a small country. The West Germans have done it; they are a big country. I think the Americans will do it. These are the countries in which freedom survives.

What I am trying to do is to awaken Dáil Éireann to this fundamental fact: it is not the contents of this particular Budget, it is not the fact that the price of the plug tobacco has gone up to 9s 2d or the pint by tuppence that matters; what really matters is whither are all these successive Budgets taking us? It is now a word of warning should be issued that, if we continue in the belief that it is both desirable and possible to maintain an annual inflation of our currency at four per cent, that is only the first of an endless series of interim Budgets. We will never catch up. And the certain and inevitable consequence of that is that this Oireachtas, as we know it, will disappear and there will be a new system of Government in this country.

Mark you, I hear people talking already off public platforms of the desirability of acknowledging that Parliament is no longer adequate to provide the kind of Government required in a modern society. I want to see Parliament survive. I want to see Government carried on in this country by the processes of the Oireachtas. I believe in our system of Government. I would prefer to do things slowly, certainly and justly rather than to do them quickly, efficiently and unjustly. I would prefer that civil servants should remain the servants of the people and I believe we are lucky enough in this country to have a great establishment of civil servants who want that too; they want to continue as the servants of the people. But I already hear people speaking of a new system of Government in which civil servants would not be the servants of the people but the masters of the people. There are people who believe in that. I do not believe that these people, if they come out in the open and tried to overthrow the institutions of this State by force, will ever be permitted to do so provided our people know what their purpose is. But here is the method which they may successfully employ if somebody does not shout "Stop". The interim Budget, the hallmark of the inflationary column, that is the instrument that will be used to tear up the foundations of Oireachtas Éireann. It shocks me to see people whom I know have no sympathy with that philosophy suffering themselves to be made the tools of a conspiracy to destroy freedom in this society. I would be interested to hear does the Taoiseach still believe in the possibility of controlling inflation, because it is on his answer to that question the future of this country very largely depends. I hate this Budget. I hate this Budget for the burdens it will put upon the people, but I hate it far more because I recognise in it a milestone on the road to the ruin of liberty. What causes me concern is the fact that in the first 30 years I was in this House I do not think we had a single interim Budget. In the last six we have had three or four. Has that any significance?

The Deputy is not absolutely accurate there.

I do not remember an interim Budget.

1947! Did not the people react admirably? The Government were out on their ear two months later. Were the people not right? They said with emphasis——

It was a different reason altogether.

Is there not drama in that? In the first 30 years one interim Budget and out the Government went on their ear three months later. Was that not dramatic? But in the last six years interim Budgets are an everyday occurrence. I do not think I could more eloquently underline the point I sought to make than the Taoiseach himself did by his helpful interjection.

I, perhaps, could develop it too.

I am grateful. I am glad that——

The 1947 Budget?

We had one in 1947 and we turfed them out the following February and demonstrated that it was not necessary.

It did not last long though.

If the Leas-Cheann Comhairle would permit me, which I know he will not, I should love to tell the story of those three and a half years.

The Deputy will appreciate that it would not be in order.

They were the most stimulating, the most dramatic and the happiest that I can remember of my 36 years in public life.

Fifteen Neros fiddling.

(Cavan): On this Finance (No. 2) Bill, 1968, I want to say a few words in relation to the taxes it imposes, on the effect those taxes will have on the social welfare or poorer sections of the country, and on the effect they will have on industrial relations and the wage structure in the country during the remainder of the year.

As Deputy Dillon has so ably pointed out, it is very unfortunate that in recent years we did not seem to be able to budget for 12 months ahead. The Minister for Finance, Deputy Haughey, when speaking within the past couple of years, seemed to think that there is not much virtue in or, indeed, a great deal of necessity for budgeting 12 months in advance. I want to ask the Taoiseach and the House, if we are not prepared to budget for at least 12 months in advance, how can we expect to have stability in wages? How can we expect to avoid industrial unrest? How can we expect to avoid numerous and frequent demands for wage increases?

The Budget which was introduced in the spring of this year imposed substantial enough taxes, and to offset those taxes social welfare payments were increased in some categories, at any rate, by about 7s. 6d. per head. The increases payable to the social welfare classes came into operation in August in respect of the non-contributory section and, in respect of the contributory sections who fall within the social welfare code, they will not come into operation until January of next year. I want to say that the benefits which are supposed to have been given to the contributory social welfare recipients in the spring Budget of this year under the Finance (No. 1) Act have already been nullified and taken away from the people before they actually received them, because these taxes which we are now asked to impose will increase the cost of living substantially on recipients of the social welfare benefits. I say that the contributory sections will never reap the benefits of that Budget because this Budget will rob them of those promised benefits. The non-contributory section received those increases in August and have had them during September, October and November. They have had them for one-third of the year and now they are being taken from them by the taxes which we are imposing.

I say that is unjust. I say it is unfair that the social welfare payments should be increased by the Finance (No. 1) Bill in a particular year on the basis that taxation will remain as provided in that Bill, and that we should then have another Finance Bill introduced which will "up", and "up" very considerably, the taxes on the ordinary necessaries of life and the ordinary enjoyments of the poor without giving them any compensation by way of increased social service payments. I say that simply is not fair. I say it is dishonest.

If the Government cannot budget 12 months in advance so far as taxation is concerned they should admit they have not budgeted fairly 12 months in advance so far as the social welfare payments are concerned. If they find it necessary to re-think on the question of taxation before the year is out they should re-think on the social welfare benefits and increase them also. That is elementary. It cannot be successfully argued against. It does not take any eloquence or any lengthy speech to show that this Bill is robbing the poor. It is a Bill which is robbing the old age pensioner, the widow, the orphan, the recipient of unemployment benefit and assistance. It is robbing them of what they were promised earlier. That cannot be denied.

I also think that if the Government see fit to increase taxation and thereby diminish the benefits promised to those people who are badly in need of social assistance, they should increase the social welfare assistance in the amending Bill too. In this year of affluence, 1968, the social welfare classes are getting little enough. It is not as if they were in receipt of sums which could withstand an attack of this sort. They are in receipt of no such payments. They are in receipt of miserable assistance which is barely enough to keep body and soul together. Try to visualise old age pensioners living on an income of £3 5s a week with the cost of living as it is, having to pay rent, buy fuel, clothes and food, and then finding in the middle of the year that further taxation is being imposed. Can that be justified? Does the Taoiseach attempt to justify it? I should like to hear his observations on it.

I have also said that this is bound to lead to industrial unrest. This Bill which we are asked to pass coupled with the increase in Post Office charges and the increase in bus fares which was just announced, is bound to put up the cost of living considerably. If the cost of living goes up we know we will have demands for increased wages. We know we will have industrial unrest. We know that will seriously damage the economy. The Taoiseach will probably run for shelter to the umbrella of the troubles in France and the troubles in Great Britain, but I say that is no excuse. Long before these measures were announced across the water the Taoiseach had introduced this Bill. I want to go on the record here as saying that the Minister for Finance told us in so many words when introducing his Budget in the spring that he would be introducing another Budget before the end of the year. He told the House that in a backward way. He told us that, unless something unforeseen turned up, he did not anticipate another Budget before the end of the year.

I said at that time that the Minister was introducing a pre-referendum Budget and passing a pre-referendum Finance Bill through this House. We are now dealing with the post-referendum Finance Bill implementing the post-referendum Budget. It is the business of the Government in power to run the affairs of the country in such a way that the people will know for a reasonable time in advance how they stand in relation to taxation and to the cost of living and that the wage-earner and factory worker will know whether the wage which he is getting early in May will be a fair wage for the following 12 months, and that the social welfare recipient will know that his old age pension in May, 1968, will hold its value until at least March or April, 1969. I think it is the Government's business to do that. The Government which fail in that duty are not distributing fairly the wealth of the country.

Another thing I would like to say is that the housing situation in this country and in this city has not been solved. The housing situation is desperate. That is a matter which can be dealt with in greater detail on the Estimate for the Department of Local Government, but this Budget is something that the Minister for Local Government will have to bear in mind when he introduces his Estimate. It is something that the Minister for Local Government will have to bear in mind when he is advising the Taoiseach and the Government on housing grants because this Bill which we are discussing now will substantially increase the cost of houses. It will increase through the wholesale tax the cost of house-building. We know that the cost of building houses has gone up considerably in the last few years. Devaluation put it up; turnover tax put it up; wholesale tax when first introduced increased it. Now we have the wholesale tax doubled in this measure. I want to know if the Taoiseach can tell us whether it is the intention of the Government to increase standard housing grants because the standard grant of £300 payable in respect of a new house has not been increased for many years.

This is hardly relevant.

(Cavan): I may be wrong but I think it is relevant.

It is as relevant as the Government adjournment.

The debate is on the administration of the Finance Bill.

It is not relevant.

(Cavan): While the cost of house-building and the grants which are given to reduce the cost may not be relevant to the Taoiseach they are very relevant to the people who want to build houses for themselves.

I am not saying they are not relevant to the people. They are not relevant to the Bill we are discussing. The Deputy need not be twisting it.

(Cavan): The fact that this Bill is increasing the cost of houses is very relevant to this discussion. That is one of the effects of the increase from five to ten per cent in the wholesale tax.

The Chair feels at this stage that a reference to this matter would be in order, but that a discussion of the housing grants would not be in order in a discussion on matters of administration.

(Cavan): I do not want to have a long discussion on the housing grants beyond saying that I hope that the Taoiseach will do something to offset the increase in the cost of house-building which this Bill will definitely bring about. It is a deplorable state of affairs that this year, which was the referendum year, was one in which we had two Budgets, just as in the Presidential Election year we had two Budgets. I was accused of being unfair to the Taoiseach when I spoke in the general debate on the Budget and said I thought that the fact that in the Presidential Election year of 1966 we had a pre-election and a post-election Budget was unjust and not honest, just as this year which was a referendum year we had a pre-referendum and post-referendum Budget and Finance Bill. I think that the Taoiseach, now that he finds himself saddled again with the portfolio of the Department of Finance, should resolve that, in so far as he is concerned or will in future have any control, there will be an end of this “two Budgets a year” business so that the working people and the social welfare recipients will know whether the benefits given to them in the spring Budget really mean anything or whether these benefits are going to be cut away, reduced and rendered valueless by another Budget introduced later in the year, as has happened in this case.

I could go into the details of the taxes imposed here by this Bill. They have been dealt with in detail before. It is sufficient to say that the taxes on beer, spirits and cigarettes and the wholesale tax, coupled with the increased Post Office charges and the increased bus fares will, in my opinion, bring about a very stiff increase in the cost of living which will lead, as Deputy Dillon has so ably said, to untold trouble in this country. The Taoiseach and the Government must take the blame for it.

The Taoiseach rose.

Debate adjourned.
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