asked the Minister for Education if any consideration has been given to allowing students an opportunity to express their views on, and to actively participate in, proposals for the merger of UCD and Trinity College; and if his Department are considering the merger proposals in the light of higher education needs as a whole.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - University Merger.
78.
The Students' Representative Councils of University College, Dublin, and Trinity College, Dublin, and the Union of Students in Ireland have been invited by the Higher Education Authority to submit to it their views on its interim assignment.
The Government's decisions in relation to higher education in Dublin were taken, of course, in the light of higher education needs in the country as a whole.
Would the Minister tell us have the Government taken any decision in regard to the merger of TCD and UCD, or are we still floating about in a miasma of bewilderment?
In my reply on the Estimate this morning I emphasised the rational thinking behind the Government's decision in regard to achieving a degree of co-ordination between the two universities and with that in view I announced a proposal to the effect that the professional disciplines should be unified into one single school in each case. In regard to the professional bodies concerned in the matter, there has been complete approval from a wide-ranging number of responsible prominent medical people in the city and in the country who see the wisdom of having a single medical school. Similar support has come from the professional bodies concerned with the engineering and veterinary professions. The argument for having single professional schools in the city is very heavily weighted in favour of doing this if we are to preserve and improve our standards of higher education in these professional qualifications.
My proposals are now with the Higher Education Authority who are receiving deputations and discussing all aspects of the higher education proposals with all bodies concerned, the university authorities, the staff associations and the students' bodies. It is going through this very desirable process of consultation. I would hope that the matter will be resolved in about three months. The Higher Education Authority will report back to me as to what legislation is needed to implement what are very desirable decisions not only in this field but in the whole field of education.
Is the Minister aware that this continuing doubt as to the ultimate decision in regard to the merger proposal so emphatically proclaimed by his late predecessor has created a situation in both universities in which the ordinary routine work of the universities is being very seriously interfered with, as every material decision is being postponed on the grounds that it cannot be arrived at pending settlement of the merger proposal?
There can be no doubt about my views and the Government's views in regard to the merger. We are emphatically for the proposal to merge the two colleges. The details are now being ironed out. As I said this morning "merger" is an unfortunate word which we have all got used to using. "Co-ordination" might be a better word.
That is something new for the Government. Substitute that for arrogance.
I may say that I have been urged by Fine Gael in the course of the debate on my Estimate— by Deputy Lindsay, Deputy Cosgrave and a number of other Deputies of Deputy Dillon's Party—to proceed along the lines of consultation.
(Cavan): Did I understand the Minister to say that his proposals are with the Commission on Higher Education?
Not the Commission, the Authority.
(Cavan): For consultation?
On the details.
(Cavan): The Minister has made it clear that he is not prepared to listen to anything and the Authority was set up to carry out decisions already made.
The Deputy does not understand. If he had been here for the very useful debate we had over a number of days he would appreciate that such is not the intention. Indeed, we are proceeding at all levels along the line of consultation and discussion.
(Cavan): Has there been a change of heart?
That is not what the Minister said in Canada.
The proposal is gone down the drain.
I want to repeat that the proposal announced by me on 6th July of this year in regard to having unified schools of professional disciplines in this city with arts and sciences courses available in each of the two colleges was a Government decision, and stands as a Government decision. To settle the universities is not an idle matter to be done by us here at Question Time. It is a matter for future generations also. The whole structure has to be gone into in substantial detail and these details are now being worked out.
Will there be a faculty of medicine in each college?
Was the Deputy listening? I want to answer Deputy Clinton. If he was listening he would know that the first matter I mentioned was that this was the first of the professional groups to come out substantially in favour of what we are doing. All the other professional groups, the engineers and the veterinary people, agree as well that the argument is not answerable. That is the view of all the thinking people and the view of the professional bodies. Responsible medical practitioners and representatives of the universities and the teaching hospitals throughout the country signed this letter which went to the papers last week.
Eight people.
They are very representative of all the medical schools in the country.
Eight.
Can we be serious about this matter? I have little fear in regard particularly to medical education and this also applies to the other professional spheres I have mentioned. The real fear is that if we do not do this, particularly in medicine—and professors and medical people believe this —we will face the situation of declining standards. If we spread our resources so thinly in the future that we have two separate universities in Dublin competing for scarce resources—remember, substantial investment will be required in both spheres of study, medicine and engineering, as well as the other professions—substantially higher investment will be required for post-primary study and research. Unless we have the combination of a single medical school in Dublin located in Trinity College and allied to the proposed two main teaching hospitals envisaged by the Minister for Health—one on the north side of Dublin and one on the south side—our medical education of the future will not be up to the standards required.
Will the Minister say that this is the main motivating factor?
It is one of the factors.
Is that the main motivating factor? Because of the fact that there is no money, is the Minister trying to reduce the cost in the first place? From a medical point of view, I think it is important for the Minister to realise that consultation is vital, not because it affects this generation or the next. It is terribly important that the Minister does not ride roughshod over the House. He should decide now that he must have more consultations. We know he said this but he also said that, whether they like it or not, he will go ahead and do it.
We are consulting all round the place. Deputy Dillon says we are consulting too much and you say we are not consulting enough. The reality of the matter is that it is not a question of money but we will want substantially heavier investment in higher education in the years ahead if we are to allocate the resources available to us in the future. Looking to the future—we are planning 15 years ahead—and having regard to the sort of investment needed, we can only have it with a unified university structure in Dublin.