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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 26 Feb 1969

Vol. 238 No. 12

Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Clara (Offaly) Workers' Unemployment Benefit.

49.

asked the Minister for Social Welfare the circumstances in which several hundred workers of a firm (name supplied) in Clara, County Offaly, have been refused unemployment benefit by his Department, as the firm confirms that they paid off the workers owing to a break down of machinery and as on the 4th and 6th February the firm submitted the names of the employees who had to be paid off; if he has received a communication from the firm dated 20th February confirming these circumstances; why unemployment benefit has been paid to the employees of the same firm in Waterford under exactly the same conditions; and if he will now take steps to have payments made immediately to the workers concerned who have no income whatever and many of whom have large families completely dependent on benefit.

51.

asked the Minister for Social Welfare if on the 20th February, 1969 a small deputation of the committee of the Clara branch of the Irish Transport and General Workers' Union called to his Department for the purpose of leaving an important letter from the management of a firm (name supplied) of Clara, County Offaly, which had an important bearing on the claim of some hundreds of workers for unemployment benefit; if he is aware that they were left in the hall of his Department for three-quarters of an hour and were later surrounded by at least 30 members of the Garda Síochána for no apparent reason; and if he will make a statement on this matter.

50.

asked the Minister for Social Welfare if he is aware that 200 workers employed by a firm (name supplied) in Clara, County Offaly have been refused unemployment benefit and if he will make a statement on the matter.

With your permission, a Cheann Comhairle, I propose to take questions Nos. 49, 51 and 50 together in that order.

Under a decision by a statutory deciding officer on test claims for unemployment benefit on behalf of nearly 300 production employees at Clara of the firm in question, there was a refusal of benefit as from 5th February, 1969, when an official picket was placed on the premises by maintenance craftsmen in pursuance of a trade dispute. The disallowance of benefit from that date was made under the provisions of section 17 (2), as amended, of the Social Welfare Act, 1952, which precludes payment of unemployment benefit to a person who has lost employment by reason of a stoppage of work which was due to a trade dispute at his place of employment, except in certain defined circumstances. It was held by the deciding officer that exception from the disqualification was not applicable in the cases in question as the workers concerned belonged to a grade or class, members of which had become involved in the dispute.

A copy of a communication dated 20th February, 1969, from the firm in question was received but it did not in fact add anything to the information already before the deciding officer. The facts available to that officer indicated that the comparison being made with the Waterford case is not a valid one.

The decision in relation to the Clara cases is under appeal and will be the subject of a hearing by an appeals officer. In the circumstances, any further statement by me on the issue under appeal would not be appropriate.

With regard to the question regarding the deputation, the allegations made by the Deputy are not in accordance with the facts. A sizeable group of at least 12 persons from the firm in question, who did not identify themselves as members of a trade union committee, arrived at the headquarters of my Department without prior notice on the date in question and were met with the minimum of delay by a senior official. It soon became quite evident that their purpose was not, as suggested, simply to hand in the letter referred to earlier. They made it quite clear that they also hoped by their presence to force an immediate reversal of the decision affecting the unemployment benefit position of a large number of workers at the firm concerned who had lost employment by reason of a trade dispute. Even though the correct statutory procedure for contesting the decision on appeal was fully explained to them they indicated that they were not prepared to leave without a favourable decision. The statement regarding the presence of a large Garda Síochána force is, I need hardly say, quite incorrect. It should not be necessary for me to add that attempts to influence decisions in this manner outside the normal statutory channels are entirely futile and must, of course, be thoroughly deplored.

Is the Minister aware that these workers have been paid off by the firm in question because of a breakdown in machinery? Is he aware that there is no question whatever of the workers who have made this claim being involved in any trade dispute, that they were actually paid off by the management and that on the following day, after being paid off by the management because of the breakdown in machinery, they made their claims for unemployment benefit? Is the Minister further aware that already some hundreds of workers in Clara cannot qualify for payment of home assistance by the local authority because the local authority feel that the Department of Social Welfare should be paying them unemployment benefit? Further, is the Minister aware of the serious situation that exists in the town where there are almost 400 people with no income whatever, all of whom have large families depending on them? In view of these circumstances will the Minister now authorise the payment of unemployment benefit to the unemployed persons concerned?

I am sure the Deputy is well aware that this has gone to an appeals officer, who is a statutory deciding officer, and it would be quite wrong, particularly at this stage, for me to make any suggestions as regards what I think the outcome of the appeal will be.

Is the Minister not aware that this is a case in which, in the first instance, unemployment benefit should have been granted when the firm certified that these people were unemployed, paid off because of a breakdown in machinery? Was that certificate not sufficient to warrant the payment of unemployment benefit, without any further question or investigation? Does the Minister not agree that this is a case in which, without having to go to an appeal, the Department, in accordance with existing regulations, could have made the decision on the certificate from the management that these workers were being paid off and that there was no work for them because of a breakdown in machinery?

The Deputy is aware that the deciding officer has already had a test case under consideration in respect of these employees, and has decided against payment from a particular date, and the matter is now on appeal to an appeals officer. I would not say it is sufficient just to get a statement from the manager that they were laid off, or particular groups were laid off, at particular times. In the case with which it is being compared or equated in Waterford the exact same procedure was adopted. I will not say that the same circumstances pertain. In fact, if the Deputy listened to the reply, in Waterford all the workers were paid off before a picket ever went on the works.

I gather from the Minister's reply that he now agrees that unemployment benefit should have been paid in the first instance without question to these workers. There was no question of a picket being placed on the industry when they were paid off by the management. It is clearly a case in which the workers immediately on being paid off, qualified for unemployment benefit. May I ask the Minister seriously how does he consider that almost 400 workers in the town of Clara can exist without one penny piece income from anyone? Is the Minister aware that the merchants and the grocers in Clara will not advance the necessaries of life to these people because most of them dealt in supermarkets in local towns on a cash basis? They now have no cash and there are many families without food in the town of Clara today. Will the Minister, in view of this urgency, consult with the senior officers of his Department and have the arrears of unemployment benefit paid this week if possible?

We cannot debate this question all evening.

This is a very important question——

——and the Chair appreciates that. I have no desire to argue with the Chair but I have been sent here to Parliament on behalf of these people to deal with a serious injustice and I ask the co-operation of the Chair to assist me. There are enough people trying to make laws outside the House. We are here to make the laws inside the House, to see that injustices are rectified.

Is the Minister aware that the men's union, the Irish Transport and General Workers' Union, have already made representations on behalf of these men to the Department?

Yes, I understand there have been some representations.

May I ask the Minister why it was necessary, when a most law-abiding deputation of respectable workers called to his Department, to telephone a large number of gardaí to surround the building while these people were inside? Is this customary? This is a very serious matter. These are law-abiding citizens, who came up with a copy of a communication from the management of the firm. The reason they came was to leave it with the Department so that the case could be disposed of with the least possible delay. Is it the customary courtesy of the Minister's Department that, when a group of citizens go in in a businesslike, law-abiding manner, the place is surrounded by police? I should like to hear the Minister's views on this.

We are getting into a debate on this question.

I deny, of course, the allegation that the place was surrounded by police. That is a complete exaggeration. There was a sizeable——

Number of police.

——number of people, at least 12 people, coming unannounced and unexpected——

That is not so.

I had no prior knowledge whatever. The Deputy could have phoned me to say they were coming. I received a deputation in connection with the Waterford case, but I got due notice of it. I discussed the problem with all the Deputies of the constituency. In this case I had no notice whatever. I did not know anything about it. Neither did anybody in the Department, so far as I know.

That is not so. The deputation had an introductory note from me addressed to the Private Secretary to the Secretary of the Department of Social Welfare. They produced the note of introduction——

They were on the spot before the note was.

A Cheann Comhairle, may I seek your permission to raise this matter on the Adjournment in view of the fact that 400 families are on the verge of starvation?

The Chair will communicate with the Deputy.

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