Committee on Finance. - Vote 42—Posts and Telegraphs (Resumed). – Dáil Éireann (18th Dáil) – Thursday, 6 Mar 1969

Committee on Finance. - Vote 42—Posts and Telegraphs (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:—

That a supplementary sum not exceeding £10 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1969, for the Salaries and Expenses of the office of the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, and of certain other Services administered by that Office, and for payment of a Grant-in-Aid.

—(Minister for Posts and Telegraphs.)

Sir Anthony Esmonde

Before moving to report progress last week I had been talking about television and had said that, largely, I agreed with what the Minister had said in relation to the dissemination of news on Telefís Éireann, that they were concentrating too much—I think that was what the Minister intended to convey—on publicity stunts; that while I realised that Telefís Éireann want to exploit their news value to the greatest possible extent, it seemed to me that items that appeared to be detrimental to the country were being highlighted rather more than was justified and that sections of the community were getting publicity far in excess of the publicity given to other sections of the community who were doing a great deal to stimulate public opinion and helping humanity and charitable institutions.

The only further comment I want to make on Telefís Éireann is that it would be desirable and necessary to have a sports programme similar to the Saturday afternoon BBC sports programme. Saturday afternoon is a time when people have time for viewing. Such a sports programme would provide a good service for the public. Admittedly, Telefís Éireann have sports programmes on Saturday afternoon but only very occasionally. If it is not possible to have a Telefís Éireann production, there is no reason why there should not be co-operation with the BBC with a view to relaying BBC programmes. It must be borne in mind that there are many television licensees who can receive no other channel than Telefís Éireann. These people, therefore, have no regular sports programme on Saturday afternoon. That is a matter that might be considered.

There has been a good deal of comment about the interviewing of parliamentarians, and so forth. Any parliamentarian who goes on television should be prepared to take it. Any public representative who is not able to take the knock should not go on television. Every public representative should be able to answer criticism levelled at him. I would have no sympathy for him if he were not.

It has been suggested that some of the interviewers are somewhat rude to parliamentarians who go on television. I do not think it pays anybody to be rude. I do not think that the person who is rude is successful. His rudeness boomerangs. It is, of course, undesirable that interviewers should be rude to public representatives or anybody else but the public representative ought to be able to give back all they give him and state his case fully. It would be of great advantage to the country if there were political discussion programmes on Telefís Éireann as there are in other countries. Those participating in such discussions need not necessarily be public representatives. They could be persons interested in politics generally. One of the things we suffer from in Ireland is a lack of interest in public life, political institutions, economic policies and politics as a whole. Telefís Éireann would be well advised to follow the example of broadcasting services in other countries in the matter of the production of political discussion programmes.

I wish Telefís Éireann good luck. The service is improving. There are of course little difficulties and faults here and there which I am sure will be removed in the course of time.

I now come to the telephone service. It is eminently desirable that we should have an up-to-date and efficient telephone service. Is it too much to ask that telephone operators when asked for a number should repeat the number and indicate to the caller whether he will call him back, whether the number is engaged and so on? In other words, if I am looking for Dalkey 59 or some number like that it is a simple thing for the operator to say: "The number is engaged; I will call you back." At the moment one rings a telephone exchange, they answer and then you have not the foggiest whether they are putting you through or not. This is a simple thing. It needs no particular training. I suggest that the Minister should give a directive to all telephone operators that they should take that simple line.

We have a jazz band on the telephone in County Wexford. This band is quite impartial. It does not confine itself to any particular area. On Monday the jazz may be heard in the Wexford area and on Tuesday they may have it in Enniscorthy. I have been told that the ESB are responsible for it. Last week I was endeavouring to get on to one of the larger hospitals on the north side of Dublin. I tried from morning until night one day and I tried the next day as well. I could not get on. I was told that it was due to the fact that the ESB had been carrying out major reconstruction in the area.

Some years ago in the Courtown area of County Wexford at the height of the tourist season the jazz band was playing almost continuously. This caused a great deal of indignation among business people who were staying there for the holiday season and wanted to transmit urgent calls, some of them cross-channel. They could be heard at the other end but they could not hear. The Department of Posts and Telegraphs responded immediately to my representations and sent down experts to check the thing. It was a considerable time before it was discovered that the trouble was due to the ESB. I would ask the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs to consider referring the matter to the Minister for Transport and Power and see if the Department of Posts and Telegraphs could stop the Department of Transport and Power or the ESB from interfering with our telephone service.

We have before us here a telephone bill for £50 million. The position as I know it is that it is not very easy to get a telephone. That I can understand because of the shortage of skilled staff, because of the heavy demand for telephones and because of the overloading of the existing structures. When my constituents apply for a telephone they are told that they will have to pay seven years rental in advance. I had a case recently of a comparatively small farmer who was asked to pay, I think, £105 down to get his telephone. Apart from the fact that this is an undue hardship, it seems to me very bad policy. Are we not spending seven years in advance the rental? The rental is paid over then. Are we not absorbing the national revenue that would be due to the Department of Posts and Telegraphs over the next seven years? It does not seem to me to be good business. The thing about this is that people who are situated in outlying districts, and very often those are the people who particularly require telephones because of aged relatives living with them or something like that, have to pay far in excess of anybody else. If a person is looking for a telephone and requires maybe half a dozen posts if he happens to live a long way from the beaten track he has to pay an almost prohibitive sum. This is a point to which the Minister should give attention. I have had innumerable complaints about it. They say they have to do that to make the service economic. We have got the telephone bill before us. I think it is £50 million over five years. I think that is the sum that is being allocated for the development of the Department of Posts and Telegraphs, mainly concerned with telephones. This is a smaller matter the Minister should give serious consideration to and he should stop this advance because economically it is entirely wrong to take away your income for seven years ahead. This, in effect, is what is happening.

A mart is being built for the farmers' co-operative in Wexford. There are a considerable number of people employed there and the contract is held by Willoughby Brothers of Gorey who are already telephone subscribers. The contract is a big one. It runs to £34,000. There is a lot of employment involved. They have applied for a telephone. I made personal representations to either the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs or the Parliamentary Secretary to get a telephone for them. I have been told down in the contracts department that this telephone went for contract a fortnight ago. I do not live very far from there and I know that telephones have been installed alongside the mart. There is no need for me to tell the Minister how extremely important it is that a big contract like this running to £34,000 should have a telephone. To be without one is a hardship not only for the people who are building the mart but for the employees and all the people concerned. I want the Minister to give that his immediate attention. I intend to put down a Parliamentary question but I would like if the Minister could give me an assurance that he will give the telephone straight away and he can do that by taking up the telephone and ringing the people in the area and asking them to install a telephone straight away because they are working there.

We have in rural Ireland, in County Wexford anyway, antediluvian letter boxes. They are too small. One can get an ordinary letter in but the Minister will appreciate that in the modern world there are many forms and maps and so on that must be posted. Recently in Rosslare Harbour I looked for a bigger letter box. There was a very small one there. Somebody sent down another letter box from Dublin or Waterford about two inches bigger. With a herculean struggle one might get the local paper into it and a few letters. Surely to goodness if we are encouraging people to use the mails more we should give them something they can put their correspondence into?

As I am on Rosslare Harbour I should like to refer to the telephone we are seeking for Kilrane. I have been assured by the Minister or the Parliamentary Secretary that there is no need for it. As Minister for Transport and Power, the Minister knows of the increase in incoming traffic at Rosslare Harbour due to the cross-channel ferry on the Fishguard-Rosslare route. There is a public telephone in Rosslare Harbour, perhaps two, but what people do when they get off the car ferry is go to the next village to make a telephone call because more than likely there will be a queue for the telephone at Rosslare Harbour. Kilrane is a mile or less from there. There used to be a sub-postoffice there but it is now closed. I cannot understand why the unfortunate people have been denied the facility of a public kiosk. I can assure the Minister that is is very detrimental to Irish tourism to have no telephone there. I believe that Irish tourism is as dear to the heart of the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs as it is to the heart of the Minister for Transport and Power.

Mr. Andrews

I intend to be as brief as possible in my contribution to this important debate. The Minister has said as much as needs to be said in connection with his Department but I should like to thank him for circularising the Members of the House with information considerably in advance of the discussion on the Estimate. The information we received from him was most helpful and the Minister is to be thanked for giving us as much information in advance as he possibly could. We are most grateful to him for the manner in which he dealt with the House in this regard.

There are a number of points which I wish to raise in connection with telephones, kiosks, television aerials and subterranean telephone lines in my own constituency. Coming from a suburban constituency, and with the growth of housing estates, public and private, I would urge the Minister to put in underground telephone wires where physically possible. There are a number of estates in my own locality in Blackrock and it is grotesque to see them festooned with telephone and electricity wires. I do not know what the scientific problems are in connection with electricity wires.

Mr. M.E. Dockrell

There are none.

Mr. Andrews

It is grotesque on going into some of the new estates to see the scenic amenities of these estates destroyed by the ghastly crisscrossing of telephone and electricity wires, not to mention the electricity and telephone poles. I am sure the Minister is well aware of these matters and I know that he is anxious to improve the amenities of our cities and countryside. I do not know what the problems are, but if at all possible he should have subterranean telephone wires laid in all new estates, public and local authority. Our local authority estates in the vast number of cases are magnificent and it is a pity to have them sullied by this proliferation of wires.

Any suburban Deputy coming into newly erected suburban estates can see the ugly mass of television aerials destroying the rooftops of beautiful houses. If we could have a law to the effect that in all future housing estates a master aerial would be erected to give proper reception to the various houses it would be a great improvement. It is a pity that these things are not thought of when we are talking about the beautification of our cities and countryside. Dublin is no beauty and anything we can do to beautify it we should do it. A beautiful city has its effect on the people; psychologically they are sharper and better people. Where at all possible the Minister should encourage the erection of master aerials in new housing estates.

On the question of telephone boxes, it has happened to me that I go to a telephone box and I find I have only three pennies where the call costs six pennies. That is a matter for the person making the call but if one is looking for a person named Lawlor and looks up the telephone directory one finds that there is no page for the Lawlors. This is infuriating. I know the Minister and his officials are not responsible for that but part of the problem is the binding of the telephone book itself. It is too easy to tear out a page, which is a savage thing to do, but it is an infuriating thing to find that the book is not there or to find that it is in a complete mess because the binding has come off through over use. I would ask for a better binding for the telephone books to help counter the uncivilised approach of some people to property which does not belong to them.

I have received complaints about the condition of the telephone boxes themselves, about the windows being broken and so on. Are there people employed full-time to look after the broken telephone kiosks, to replace broken windows and to clean them? The stench one gets on entering some of these kiosks is pretty dreadful to say the least of it. They should be disinfected from time to time, especially the receiving instruments. That should be part of a programme of public health safety.

On the question of sub-postoffices in suburban areas, I have brought the matter of the necessity for one in Cabinteely to the attention of the Parliamentary Secretary who received me in his usual courteous fashion, but unfortunately he could not accede to my request. However, I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary to reconsider the possibility of having a sub-postoffice in Cabinteely. In regard to the constituency of Dún Laoghaire/Rathdown generally, there is a tremendous building boom out there, and the sub-postoffices which yesterday would have catered adequately for the needs of the residents have now become completely overcrowded and understaffed. Therefore, I would ask the Minister to investigate the need for more sub-postoffices in the Dún Laoghaire/Rathdown area.

On the subject of telephones, I should like to pay a tribute to the Chief Contracts Manager in Hammam Buildings. One hears from time to time of the inefficiency of the telephone service itself, but one receives the utmost courtesy from this Contract Manager and his staff, and I would be failing in my duty as a public representative if I did not mention that. I agree one does suffer extreme irritation from time to time when one picks up the phone and finds it is not working or seems to be engaged, and when you ring up the operator you find the phone is not engaged but is giving the engaged tone. Anything that can be done to improve the speed of contact from point A to point B in our telephone service would be welcome.

We had from Deputy O'Leary a long lecture in the nature of a sermon on what Christian socialism is and how it is propagated by the Labour Party and he related this to the type of programmes put out by Telefís Éireann. I interjected to say there is a difference between Cuban socialism and Christian socialism and maybe he could not distinguish between them.

Mr. James Tully

Would the Deputy define Cuban socialism for us? Does the Deputy know that there is a seminary in Cuba for training priests?

Mr. Andrews

I am sure Father Castro would have a lot to do with that.

Mr. James Tully

It is a fact.

Mr. Norton

Are you happy?

Mr. James Tully

Are you happy? You seem to be now that you have found your spiritual home.

Mr. Norton

I am now.

Mr. James Tully

You might not be after the next election.

Mr. Andrews

The Labour Party have their own four-letter words to deal with, as we had. However, the people have now come to accept the Fianna Fáil fund-raising organisation known as Taca.

Mr. James Tully

The Minister in the Front Bench had something terrible to say about it yesterday.

Mr. Childers

I was answering Deputy Murphy.

Mr. James Tully

The Minister said he would be insulted by——

Mr. Childers

Deputy Murphy was nauseating in what he said.

Mr. Andrews

If they become irritated because I mention their problems they should remember they indulged in a campaign of personal vilification against some of the most reputable members of our Party in this House. Depuy O'Leary said his Party had not received sufficient coverage on Telefís Éireann. All we have to do is switch on the set and we see the beaming face of the great socialist, Deputy O'Leary, peering into our drawingrooms. He has a very pleasant face and I do not want to be personal, but let us be fair in talking about coverage on Telefís Éireann. I remember in the referendum there was a very fair distribution of time given to the three political Parties and, indeed, given to people who were not aligned to a political Party one way or the other. There is no use in saying the Labour Party did not get sufficient coverage.

Mr. Harte

Would the Deputy say there was fair coverage during the referendum campaign?

Mr. Andrews

I am talking about the Labour Party——

Mr. James Tully

I thought the debate was on the Department of Posts and Telegraphs.

Mr. Andrews

——and their complaint about not getting sufficient coverage on Telefís Éireann. Let me quote from column 1979 of the Official Report of 27th February, 1969 where he says:

My impression has always been that the Government get more than their proportion of coverage on news programmes.

I have never heard such an extraordinary statement in all my life. Indeed, some people in my own organisation in Dún Laoghaire/Rathdown were asking me what hold has the Labour Party over Telefís Éireann.

Mr. James Tully

They are very naïve in Dún Laoghaire/Rathdown.

Mr. Andrews

They are very good people, and the Deputy is very welcome out there any time. He will receive great courtesy. In relation to sports programmes there is one point I have been asked to mention and which I raise on my own account as well. A fortnight ago when watching the rugby international I was very irritated in regard to the controversial try secured by Bresnihan. Barry McGann threw the ball over his head and Bresnihan got it and the suggestion was that McGann was in touch. If we could have had, as they have on the BBC, an instantaneous reply of the action it would have helped. Let me say in fairness to Telefís Éireann that the match was shown on subsequent programmes and it was clear that McGann was not in touch and that the try should not have been disallowed. I did not see the replay of the match myself. If Telefís Éireann were able to replay this incident immediately, it would stop controversy getting out of hand and we would not have to wait for a week to find out whether our excellent outhalf, Barry McGann, was in touch or not. Indeed all the very best to the Irish team in the Arms Park on Saturday next.

The standard of Telefís Éireann sports programmes has come up considerably over the years. However, on Sunday night when one is looking at, say, a GAA match, one has the impression the camera is very far away from the actual play. and that, in fact, there is only one camera on the ground. This is a pity because in my view the nearer the camera is to the actual action the better and the further away the camera from the action the less interest one has in the game itself. Perhaps, the answer to the problem in regard to the GAA — the same applies to soccer matches I have seen in Milltown where there may be only one camera and the action too far away—is to have a series of cameras around the sports arena. This is a matter that might be taken up with Telefís Éireann.

There has been a suggestion that television be brought into Dáil Éireann. I do not feel very strongly about it one way or another. Perhaps, it should be brought in for the opening day of Dáil Éireann. I have not been here for a dissolution of the Dáil, at least not yet.

Mr. James Tully

The Deputy will not have long to wait.

Mr. Foley

The Deputy will be sorry when we do go.

Mr. James Tully

I was here and I came back and anybody who can say that can afford to talk.

Mr. Andrews

On occasions such as that when President Kennedy came here I think it is important to have television cameras here and as an extension to that, perhaps, we could have the cameras in for Question Time once in each Dáil term. That might encourage some of us to behave ourselves. These are just suggestions as I go along.

Deputy Moore mentioned the "radio university of the air" in a Dáil question and got a reply from the Minister which I do not think was particularly encouraging. We should try to encourage this kind of development, as something that would help to educate people at little or no expense and make education easier. The Fianna Fáil backbenchers would strongly urge the Minister to examine Deputy Moore's proposal which we welcome and which we think should receive serious consideration. We have a Telefís Scoile series dealing with schools and the Minister has approved an extension of programme time to the present total of 5½ hours weekly. The Minister goes on to say that the current series is planned to comprise 246 programmes aimed at secondary schools and covering a wide range of subjects selected in consultation with the Department of Education which bears the costs involved. This is admirable and must receive the praise of the House but we also ask the Minister to examine Deputy Moore's proposition because there are people who cannot afford a £5 TV licence but can possibly afford a radio licence. This should be looked into.

Near the end of his speech the Minister rightly makes the point that he understands the Authority have taken steps to modify the recent trend in interviewing people of all political and social opinions "in a manner which has aroused the strongest criticism". I support the Minister wholeheartedly here. Deputy O'Leary, however, said— there is a certain amount of substance in it—that if politicians or public figures generally go on television they should be able to take the rough with the smooth, particularly politicians. I agree with him there. If there is a television interviewer who is getting out of hand, I think the answer is to bring the matter to his attention and ask him to cool down a bit. By definition, television is a communication medium and if a politician has a row with an interviewer the whole idea of the actual interview is defeated. The more anonymous an interviewer remains the better since the purpose is to get information from the politician. We do not need speech-long questions from interviewers. Who is it that the people want to hear or see? Speech-long questions do nothing. I think the professional journalists who, from time to time, interview on Telefís Éireann do a very good job in that respect. They ask the question in a short sentence and get the information. This is basically what I think interviewing is all about. The Minister's point is quite valid when he says this sort of thing must cease and that we must eliminate bad manners. One party should not snarl at the other party. Having seen a television programme one can hear the reaction: "That was a marvellous row on television last night." In my opinion that was a bad TV programme from the point of view of communication.

If the reaction to the programme is: "Did you hear what Deputy Tully said last night?" Was he not good, or fair or bad? I would consider that a successful programme because it communicated what Deputy Tully had to say, or any other Deputy who might be concerned. On the other hand, if there is great amusement—and that is what happens generally when people snarl at each other on television the night before —the whole basic concept of television is defeated. There is no question but that a few Minister and individuals who went on television recently were treated rather shabbily. We hear a lot about adult audiences. Our audiences are adult because in the main these interviews are conducted after the children have been put to bed. Such audiences expect adult behaviour and courtesy from both parties. In recent times, as the Minister said, this trend has appeared in a number of interviews, of being discourteous. I do not believe in pillorying anyone and I have no intention of mentioning names. I think we all know whom we are talking about. I should not like to think that we are in any way whipping these people but I would ask them to cool down a bit, examine their consciences in this context and make sure in future that they conduct interviews calmly and dispassionately and not let their own prejudices enter into a discussion between A and B. If an interviewer offends in that respect, he ceases to be what he represents himself to be, an impartial seeker of answers to impartial questions. We are not indulging in public executions. These people should be allowed to continue but should be requested to engage in unprejudiced and unbiassed interviewing, if at all possible and, if they do not do it, then the answer is to tell them to bring their contracts to an end.

With regard to news programmes, first of all, what is news? The news programmes leave me cold. I often wonder if our excellent newscasters— Messrs. O'Mahoney, Mitchell, Timlin and company leave Telefís Éireann depressed. It must be very depressing for them to have to read out this continuous stream of car crashes, burning buildings, plane crashes, revolutions, strikes and all the rest of it. I can imagine them going home and their wives asking: "What are you depressed about this evening?" It is all bad news. Is there any hope of just one line of good news being interposed between the car crashes, the trade figures, the fires, and all the rest of it?

Mr. James Tully

Hurrah, the sun shone today.

Mr. Andrews

Something like that or "Deputy Tully was in good humour today". It seems to be all bad news that is served up. That is why I ask the question: What is news? Must it always be bad news? Our excellent newscasters must be going around in a continuous state of depression. I have the greatest sympathy for them. Perhaps the Authority would consider interposing a ray of sunshine, as Deputy Tully said.

With regard to television courses for TDs, Telefís Éireann has been getting a little bit of criticism recently but, in fairness, I think it should be said that any Deputy who took part in these courses was very impressed. Perhaps, these courses could be extended and conducted during the holiday period when it would be more convenient for Deputies. The courses were most constructive. We were all agreed on that. There is so much to be learnt that we could spend weeklong seminars on these courses. As it is, one is a nervous wreck. That was certainly my experience. I am always very nervous on television and I think part of that nervousness is engendered because one does not have the technique. That is the general experience. A little more instruction in technique would be an excellent thing. People also want to see politicians smiling instead of cringing. It is a dreadful experience to want to articulate and put a point of view and find oneself, through nerves, unable to do so because of the insidious little eye looking over the camera at one. If the courses could be extended for the benefit of Members of the House it would be all the better.

I should like now to make a special plea for Irish actors and actresses. At all times the policy should be to ensure the employment of our own actors and actresses. The profession should have the status it deserves. It seems to be emerging from the mist into the clear air now. Actors and actresses are receiving the respect they deserve. Salaries commensurate with that respect should be a sine qua non. The profession is excellent. It is tragic that people like Cyril Cusack and Milo O'Shea should have to emigrate because there is no work for them here. It would be a pity if we lost the younger people because of lack of work. They will give their lifetime to the profession and they should be encouraged to do that here instead of elsewhere. Dublin is noted for its theatre. We should concentrate on our own Irish acting profession.

Once more, I should like to thank the Minister for circularising all the information he did beforehand. Other Departments might follow his lead. I think the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries have done this but, since I come from a constituency which has very little relation to agriculture and fisheries, I did not find much use for the documents.

Mr. Harte

I am at a loss to know what it was Deputy Andrews was talking about. He spent most of the time lecturing Telefís Éireann on the presentation of programmes, the programmes he would like to see, and he ended by admitting the usefulness of the programmes the Authority put on for the convenience of Deputies and said these programmes would benefit not alone him but other Deputies. I cannot understand what point he was trying to make. He criticised Opposition Deputies in relation to Christian socialism and in the same breath he talked about looking in at a Labour Deputy in a drawingroom atmosphere. Here in Dublin some people have not got even indoor toilets and running water let alone drawingrooms.

Mr. Moore

That is not true.

Mr. Harte

Enough for Deputy Andrews and his Christian socialism. Deputy Moore has probably more appreciation of Christian socialism than Deputy Andrews because he was brought up in an atmosphere which enabled him to know these things at first-hand.

Television is a means of communication and a medium which can serve society very well. It has great educational value. In the recent past the people in control of this medium have realised that it is of greater value in the field of education than they had thought. It has an entertainment as well as an educational value. Television can also be misused. I do not drink, but I feel there is too much advertising of intoxicating liquor on television, not so much in regard to the sale of intoxicating liquor, but in putting across the idea that you are missing something by not partaking of those wonderful concoctions.

In the United States of America no company which sells intoxicating liquor is allowed to advertise before a certain time. These companies can only advertise the bottle, and they are not allowed to send across a message which would convey the idea that someone is drinking something which other people should want to drink. The Minister should pay attention to that point. It is bad to brainwash the coming generation with the idea that someone is drinking some substance and that they are missing something if they do not drink it themselves. I have no objection to these companies advertising the sale of their wares, but I protest in the strongest possible term at the brainwashing which takes place. Some day someone will draw the line for this type of advertising. The Minister should warn the television Authority that intoxicating liquor should not be advertised before a certain time, and that the advertising should be done in such a way that it does not convey to the viewer, and particularly the younger viewer, that he is missing something by not drinking what is advertised in a glass or a bottle.

I understand that the advertising of cigarettes is to be curtailed in the future. I am glad of that. The most important aspect of television is its educational value not only for schools but for the older generation. It gives them a sense of the geography of the world. I do not want to lecture the television producers in the manner in which some Deputies lectured them. I have been critical of the Authority in the past and I now wish to put on record that I recognise the progress which has been made. I want to compliment the Authority and say that RTE can now measure up to UTV or the BBC.

The reception we get in Donegal is not what it should be. I suppose we are fortunate in having a selection of three programmes, but we only pay for one and that is the one which gives us the least satisfaction in the matter of reception. Perhaps, there are technical difficulties which I do not appreciate but, if there are, perhaps, the engineering section of RTE would take note of them and attend to them at the earliest possible date.

With the advent of television the radio has been relegated to second place. I should like to see better use being made of radio. There has been a move in that direction recently. Radio should be a more intimate form of communication and give information with regard to road conditions and fatal accidents for the benefit of motorists with radios in their cars. There has been a tendency to move in that direction. On BBC radio, information is given about road conditions almost every half hour. There are reports on road conditions, on icy roads, on fogs, on serious accidents. There is information about major repairs which are being carried out and alternative routes are indicated. This is most helpful, particularly in built-up areas and congested traffic areas.

In the USA virtually every 15 minutes there are brief news bulletins giving local information. RTE could pay more attention to this. They could incorporate programmes, too, designed for the entertainment of people who have not got the pleasure of looking at television. Patients in hospital and people living on their own would have their loneliness alleviated by this type of radio programme.

In Donegal we are not satisfied with the telephone service. The service is bad, through no fault of the telephonists or the engineers, but because of bad planning by the Department of Posts and Telegraphs and a lack of communication between the Department and the Northern and British authorities. When Deputy Brennan was Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, I raised with him the possibility of using Belfast as a link between Great Britain and Donegal. I cited a number of examples of the bad service in Donegal when we are forced to use Dublin as a link for cross-Channel calls.

I suppose it is no harm to repeat one example. It was a simple story of a girl who was nursing in a hospital in London and was involved in a minor accident. Her father received a message to this effect and not knowing the details, tried to communicate with the hospital. He was a bus driver from a very northern part of Donegal. From a sub-office he tried to contact a telephone number in London and he was told there would be a delay of from two to four hours. He could not wait because he was a bus driver. He proceeded to Letterkenny where he again tried to make the call, but he was told there would be a similar delay, the Letterkenny office being the office that controlled the sub-office. He proceeded to Derry city where he used a coin-box telephone and in two minutes was able automatically to contact the telephone number he required. It is very difficult to explain this position to anxious parents of a girl involved in an accident.

At the time I took the matter up with the Department and was informed that negotiations were proceeding with a view to using either Derry or Belfast as a link for cross-Channel calls servicing County Donegal. Nothing has happened. Indeed, on a few occasions that I have tried to call my own home from Dublin I have been told the Sligo line was out of order. Because of the urgency of contacting my home I had to "sweet talk" telephonists to use Belfast as an alternative route and was told that this was highly irregular. If we have telephone link-up between Northern Ireland and the Republic, there should be some type of communication between the British authorities and the Department here so that if there is not a clear line through Sligo to Donegal, Belfast or some other route should be available. If there cannot be co-operation on these lines we should stop talking about other things which are more delicate and not so easy to organise.

I would appeal to the Minister to make representations to or to enter into negotiations with the British authorities so that persons in County Donegal who wish to contact any British city by phone can receive the same service as is available to callers in the city of Dublin who can contact any British city by phone virtually within seconds. This type of service is not available to subscribers in Donegal who are paying just as much for the telephone service and in many cases are paying more than the Dublin subscriber. An applicant in the city of Dublin can have a telephone installed at a nominal charge, whereas in rural Ireland a deposit of as much as £100 is required as a guarantee that the subscriber will retain the telephone.

I appreciate the logic of this. I cannot say I am totally against it. I agree with it to a certain degree. On the other hand, if persons are asked to pay a deposit for the installation of a telephone up to as much as £100, it is not too much to ask that they should get the same service as is available to subscribers in the city of Dublin who do not have to pay anything like that amount. In rural Ireland also there are many subscribers who have not got a 24 hour telephone service. Some of the villages that come to mind are Creeslough, Malin and Churchill, where there are subscribers who pay the same rental as other subscribers pay but whose use of the telephone is limited. I do not think this is good enough. People in these areas should have the same service as anyone else. They pay the same charges.

Last week I tried to contact a constituent in a sub-office in Portsallon in County Donegal. I could hear the Dublin operator spelling the name to the operator at the other end of the line and repeating the spelling two or three times. When she rang Letterkenny it was a Liverpool operator who came on the line. I know that lines get crossed but it is difficult to imagine how when a Dublin operator rings Letterkenny a Liverpool operator answers and cannot locate the post office asked for. The Liverpool operator said that she could not contact Portsallon.

I have repeatedly made representations to the Department about the siting of letterboxes in rural Ireland for the convenience of the public. For instance, there should be a letterbox at Drumaweel national school. A few people are anxious that there should be a letterbox in that situation. There was a letterbox there a number of years ago but it was removed. A letterbox in that location would convenience the public but for some stubborn reason the Department refused to replace the letterbox that was removed. Such a letterbox would facilitate people in that locality and its nearness to the national school would mean that school children could post letters there rather than have to go to Greencastle or Moville. I have spoken to the Parliamentary Secretary about this matter on a couple of occasions but without result. I have spoken to him in relation to the installation of various telephones. At the beginning he was more than helpful but of late— maybe it is becoming more difficult for him—he is not just as obliging.

Mr. M. O'Leary

It is shortage of time. Time is running out on them.

Mr. Harte

Maybe that is the explanation. There are many points I wished to make but most of them have been made already in this debate. Finally, I wish to make an appeal on behalf of auxiliary postmen. This is a body of men who have given good and loyal service to the Department, without any great thanks. We have had a lecture by Deputy Andrews on Christian charity which Deputy O'Leary missed. I think Deputy Andrews was taking Deputy O'Leary to task on the ethics of Christian charity. If Deputy Andrews is sincere in the compliments he has paid to the Minister, perhaps he would be more concerned about Christian charity and pay a little attention to the conditions which auxiliary postmen must tolerate. I have a letter which I received from one auxiliary postman the other day. I quote:

I will give you another glaring example of the system. I know of an auxiliary postman. He works 34½ hours and gets £11 15s Od per week. The other postman in the same office works 39 hours and receives £17 7s Od per week. For 4½ hours he receives £5 4s Od extra.

When the auxiliary postman retires he has no pension rights. He has given the same service and in many cases more service than the established postman. I cannot understand why the Department should accept the services of men and put them into the category of auxiliaries and pay them a substandard wage and then do not recognise the service on retirement under the age limit. Many auxiliary postmen are ex-Army men. Many of them are now depending solely on social welfare benefits of as little as £3 5s Od a week. The case has been made by various speakers for auxiliary postmen; the facts have been placed before the Department and the Minister on many occasions by members of this Party including myself. I do not wish to go over the same ground again but I would like to make this appeal on their behalf to the Minister. Something must be done at some stage and he might as well get the credit for it by doing something positive to help these men and by recognising their services. After 40 years they leave the service of the Department of Posts & Telegraphs and must line up on the first day of their retirement for old age pension or dole. It is not good enough. I sincerely hope the Minister will take note of this matter and do something about it.

Mr. Moore

I always feel there is a certain freshness about this Department's Estimates. As Deputy Andrews mentioned, the approach of the Minister in sending out his Estimate beforehand is appreciated by the back bench Members of the House who may not be as deft with Estimates as their more senior colleagues. The workers of this Department on the street seem to have a certain expert appearance. Perhaps this is something that is common throughout the whole Department.

The Department covers many services. One small one is district post offices. I know they are not directly controlled by the Department in the matter of decoration but most of them are painted dark green and look comparatively dowdy, uninspiring and uninviting. We might start a "brighten our post offices campaign". It might encourage people to save more or to utilise post offices more. It would do no harm and, at least, a new colour would brighten our lives.

I suppose the whole hub of this Department in recent years has been Telefís Éireann. Here we have one of the most potent influences for good or evil. Radio Telefís Éireann generally are doing a good job. It is impossible to broadcast day after day the whole year round and please people all the time or at least not offend them. Even politicians complain at times that they do not get sufficient coverage either as Parties or as individuals. Sometimes this can be true. On the First Stage of the Trade Union Bill there were three speakers—one from the Fianna Fáil Party, one from Fine Gael and one from the Labour Party. That night on the news bulletin the only speaker not mentioned was the Fianna Fáil speaker. Maybe he had not spoken as intelligently as the other people. I mention this point because it knocks the Opposition's criticism that Fianna Fáil dominate the service. We do not do anything like that. Here is an instance of a very important Bill and only the views of two Parties given. Perhaps it will happen next week that one of the other Parties will be dropped and Fianna Fáil will be mentioned. Generally speaking they try to do their best in Montrose but there have been instances where they have not done their best.

Telefís Éireann, because of its great influence on the lives of the people, can be a force for good or evil. I feel that some people there want to give it a kind of cosmopolitan outlook and by doing this they sacrifice the national outlook on certain matters. The vast majority of people want to see Telefís Éireann portray not perhaps the country we have but the country we would like to have, the Ireland of Pearse and Emmet, the young men and the old men who today are building the economy up to what we wish it to be.

Telefís Éireann put on something like the international song contest. There is tremendous ballyhoo for weeks beforehand. Then they come up with the winner eventually and this person—I do not know whether she is a good singer or a bad singer— could represent Liverpool or London or anywhere else. There is nothing Irish or national about it. This is a great tragedy. We take part in this competition with the French, the Spanish, the Dutch and all the rest and our entry—I do not just mean our entry this year but other years as well —will sing a song, which is neither a very good song, nor is it representative of the culture we wish to see. People may say: "Telefís Éireann do not pick the winner, other people do that" but Telefís Éireann organise the contest and perhaps some other agency could do a better job in this instance.

Wherever there is a row Telefís Éireann have their cameras. This shows they are a live organisation. Every day of the week we see student meetings, student rows or students doing something unusual. They always seem to have a grievance. I feel that Telefís Éireann do not probe student life deeply enough. In this city there is a group of students who each Saturday afternoon go out and repair and decorate the homes of old and destitute people who cannot do it themselves. These students from the Dublin universities get no mention on Telefís Éireann. They do not want mention but I am just mentioning it for them to show that there is more to student life than sit-ins or talk-ins or whatever other "ins" they have. Telefís Éireann could do a great job here by giving a balanced view of what students mean to the city and to the country.

I had a question down last week asking the Minister if Radio Telefís Éireann could establish a university of the air as has been done in another country. Telefís Éireann has done a good job with things like Telefís Scoile, Céim ar Aghaidh, Ceist agam Ort and the Italian programme. These show the great potential for education. Education is a major part of the lives of people today. We may discover that we have been wrong about education all along in many ways and if after 90 years of compulsory education we have a complete upheaval in our educational institutions we must start thinking afresh on this whole subject. If we could bring education into the home through Telefís Éireann it could be a tremendous step forward.

There are thousands of people who, because they have not got the means or the ability, cannot go to university but we can bring education to the people as we are doing in the programmes I have mentioned. This will mean that Telefís Éireann is a part of our lives, a very good part and that it is not there merely to amuse us, to bring us song contests and comedians. Telefís Éireann has a much deeper purpose for existence than that. Television could also be used to give us true education. Today, with the overcrowding in the universities this may be a method to provide a new type of university which does not need expensive buildings or libraries costing millions of pounds. RTE can be used to give university programmes. This has been done in Britain. We can see what they have done over there and then come up with our own ideas in the matter. People would benefit from it.

The general level of programmes on RTE is very good despite the obvious faults. I do not think that any politician is afraid of any interviewer in RTE but what politicians may be afraid of is that they may be met with a lack of courtesy on the part of the interviewer. It has happened. The politician may not be afraid of the lack of courtesy but he does not welcome it. He goes on a programme to do a job and he wants to get on with that job. While we have some very excellent interviewers in RTE some of them appear to be influenced by a young man in England who is known to be rude and who is sometimes crude. In this country we have our own image and an interviewer is there to ask the question which will draw the answers which the people want from the politician. Some years ago the Head of the Government appeared on a programme with some young people and was subject to the worst display of bad manners I have ever seen. It was stopped after that but there is nobody, no matter what his political views are, who would not condemn these young people for their bad manners on that occasion.

Some time ago we got from Telefís Éireann a course of Irish history. It was read by Mr. O'Mahony and was a classic example of what an educational programme should be. It attracted a tremendous viewing audience both because of the content of the programme and because of the excellence of Mr. O'Mahony. It did more to familiarise many of our people with Irish history than could be done by thousands of textbooks. The more we get of this type of programme the more the people will benefit and the higher will be the regard for Telefís Éireann.

With regard to advertisements for alcohol and spirits, I do not drink but I am not a pussyfoot and for adults the matter of drinking is their own business. In my opinion these advertisements have always been geared to attract the young. This is deplorable and Telefís Éireann should use more finesse in regard to these matters. I hope the time will shortly come when Telefís Éireann will be able to get along without advertisements of any kind but until that time, and if we must have advertisement, this advertising should be done in good taste.

It has frequently been stated that people brought for interview by Telefís Éireann are not representative of the general mass of the people but are sometimes rather of the odd type. This has been so but it is probably due to the fact that Telefís Éireann is trying to show how impartial it is. If the odd type is given an opportunity to express his views the onus is on Telefís Éireann to see that the views expressed are in keeping with the thinking of the people and that the person interviewed is not some odd person with a chip on his shoulder putting forward subversive or foreign doctrines. The mass of interviewers do not want this type of thing and while a small section of those who call themselves intellectuals may want it the mass of the people are opposed to it. What they would prefer to see are interviews with young people serving in hospitals or on the missions, people working in factories or young businessmen who have made the grade. That is what Telefís Éireann should try to give, our own Irish image, and they should not allow themselves to be influenced from Continental or other sources.

Most of the films shown by Telefís Éireann are imported. I can see the difficulty here because it must be very difficult to keep up a supply of films. The films shown may not be good but I regard most of them as harmless.

My final word has to do with the telephone service. There is a long delay in the installation of telephones and here again I know the difficulties. However, I think that we should tell the people that there is a waiting list of thousands and that we are doing our best to get it down to the region of two or three hundred. Every Deputy in this House is being pestered by people asking to have telephones installed and we just cannot do it although telephones today are as much a part of the home as a television set.

Could the Minister have his engineers design a telephone kiosk which would stand up to the wanton destruction being wreaked by vandals? Even in the city here we see the telephone kiosks smashed and the instruments themselves broken or stolen. We see these things done in the heart of the city and somebody must see them being done but apparently nobody interferes. I do not know what kind of kiosk would stand up to this destruction but Telefís Éireann might well give us a few lessons in civics. These vandals are the enemies of society and it is our duty to stop them.

Dáil Éireann debate - Thursday, 6 Mar 1969

Committee on Finance. - Vote 42—Posts and Telegraphs (Resumed).

A Deputy

Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 6 Mar 1969