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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 12 Nov 1969

Vol. 242 No. 5

Committee on Finance. - Vote 34: Lands.

I move:

That a sum not exceeding £4,328,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1970, for the salaries and expenses of the Offices of the Minister for Lands and of the Irish Land Comission.

In line with the agreed procedure adopted for the last few years, I propose to take the Votes for Lands and Forestry together this year also. Accordingly, in my opening remarks I shall refer to Votes 34 and 35 and at the conclusion of the debate the motion in respect of Vote 34 will be put to the House. Vote 35 will then be formally moved.

The Lands Vote, No. 34, shows a net increase of £305,000 compared with last year. I shall commence by explaining the salient features of this Estimate— especially those items which reflect a significant change from last year's provision—and continue with a review of the principal activities of the Land Commission during the year ended 31st March last.

Provision for salaries, wages and allowances is made under subhead A. The amount required this year, £1,215,000, represents a slight decrease on last year's provision. Last year reference was made to the fact that in order to deal with the new work arising from the pilot areas the inspectorate staff was being strengthened. Additional posts have been sanctioned in connection with this reorganisation to provide necessary reinforcement for a field force geared to meet the demands of the current situation and in particular to tackle effectively structural reform problems in the pilot areas.

Are there copies of the Minister's speech available for Deputies?

There should be.

It is difficult to follow the Minister.

I will go slowly.

Mr. J. Lenehan

Would the Minister have copies such as were supplied by the Minister for Labour? I think that is what they want.

I am sure they will be along in a moment.

Recruits in the new sub-professional grade of field officers referred to last year are now available and will be taking up duty very soon. The infusion into the Land Commission field force of these officers will relieve inspectors of a variety of routine duties enabling them to devote their energies to the more difficult aspects of the land reform programme.

The amount in subhead B.1 is £105,900. The first part of subhead B relates for the most part to travelling and subsistence expenses incurred in connection with the inspection, survey and allotment of lands under the Land Acts. The extra amount, viz. £13,900, this year is required for the most part to meet the travelling and subsistence expenses of an increased number of staff engaged on outdoor inspection work and to meet authorised increases in these expenses.

Part (2) of subhead B provides for payment direct to the Department of Posts and Telegraphs for all services rendered by that Department; this has now become standard procedure. The total amount required this year is £65,800.

The amount provided under subhead D is £1,234,100. The moneys required are in the nature of statutory commitments. They represent the taxpayers' contribution in the current year towards the service of land purchase debt accumulated, since 1923, on both tenanted and untenanted land. The total contribution this year, viz. £1,234,100 constitutes the biggest individual item in the Vote and represents nearly one-third of the entire net Estimate. Of the total subhead provision, some £1,072,000 will be utilised to make good deficiencies in the Land Bond Fund arising from the statutory halving of annuities under the Land Act, 1933. Indeed, the overall increase of £31,200 in the subhead this year is attributable mainly to the halving of purchase instalments payable by new allottees as land settlement proceeds. All allottees in congested areas, together with migrants and displaced employees getting holdings in non-congested areas, get the benefit of the halving of annuities.

As subhead G.1 is in four separate parts, I think I can best deal with it by referring to each part individually. The subhead involves two items, viz., the purchase of land by the Land Commission for cash in the open market and the provision of life annuities under section 6 of the Land Act, 1965. Up to 1965, cash purchases under section 27, Land Act, 1950, were restricted to lands required for migrants' holdings or for rearrangement of fragmented holdings. As Deputies are aware, however, these limitations were set aside by the repeals section of the Land Act, 1965, and purchases for cash are now open to all the general purposes of the Land Acts. During the year ended 31st March last, a total of 168 properties, aggregating 6,748 acres, were purchased for cash under section 27 at a price of £468,328. In order to cater for a substantial expansion in the volume of purchase for cash, particularly in the case of smaller estates and also in order that the scheme for life annuities shall make worthwhile progress, provision for subhead G.1 is being increased this year to a record figure of £600,000.

Section 6 of the Land Act, 1965, provides basic authority for the scheme of life annuities for elderly, incapacitated or blind persons who voluntarily sell their interest in land to the Land Commision. This scheme and the scheme for self-migration loans, to which I shall be referring later on, were brought into operation early in 1967. The objective of the life annuity scheme is to facilitate land structure reform by encouraging elderly, incapacitated or blind farmers to retire so that their lands become available for active farming by younger able-bodied persons. This scheme is having moderate success and I can say that we now have 22 persons on the life annuity payroll following the sale of their lands to the Land Commission. Most of these people availed themselves of the very attractive feature of the scheme whereby the vendor may, if he so wishes, retain a right of residence for life in his existing dwelling-house. As this scheme, which is entirely voluntary, is designed, in the main, for elderly people, progress is necessarily slow but the results to date are by no means unsatisfactory. I would hope that, as the number of life annuitants grows, they themselves will provide the best stimulus of all to others to participate in the scheme.

For the information of the House, the overall position in relation to the scheme to a recent date is as follows:—

A total of 375 firm applications have been received under the scheme and, of these, 349 have been investigated. Some 159 applications had to be eliminated at an early stage, mainly because the lands offered were not considered suitable or required for Land Commission purposes, and a further 71 were withdrawn, the owners preferring to offer their lands to the Land Commission in the ordinary way for cash or land bonds. In all, 119 applications developed into potential life annuity cases and advanced to the stage where price negotiations with the landowners concerned were authorised.

Price agreement has, in fact, been reached with 35 landowners and, as already stated, life annuities have actually been set up in 22 cases. In all other cases, the necessary legal requirements as regards title, etc., with a view to setting up life annuities for the landowners concerned, are proceeding. In the remaining two cases, the Land Commission are awaiting a decision by the vendors as to whether or not they will opt for a life annuity in lieu of all or part of the agreed purchase price.

The cases already completed have released about 1,000 acres for land settlement purposes and it is expected that a further area of some 600 acres will be made available when the other 13 cases mentioned are finalised.

The second part of subhead G stems from section 5 of the Land Act, 1965, in which resides authority for the scheme enabling the Land Commission to make loans to progressive farmers in congested areas for the purchase of viable farms of their choice, subject to making their existing lands available to the Land Commission for land settlement purposes. This in fact is really a banking or credit service, with an overall limit of £10,000 including the price paid for the owner's old holding; it is intended to augment existing land settlement schemes and is, of course, additional to and again is not in substitution for the traditional migration programme carried out by the Land Commission. The primary objective of the scheme is to facilitate the Land Commission programme of land structure reform in the scheduled congested areas, as defined in the 1965 Act—Counties Donegal, Galway, Kerry, Leitrim, Mayo, Roscommon, Sligo and parts of Clare and West Cork. The scheme is intended to encourage initiative by providing necessary capital, through the Land Commission, to enable progressive small-holders in the scheduled congested areas to improve their status by purchase in the open market of viable farms suitable to individual requirements, subject to making their existing lands available to the Land Commission as part of the loan arrangements.

Under the scheme, a total of 143 applications has been received to a recent date. Of these, 127 have been investigated and, perhaps not surprisingly, a high proportion failed at an early stage—chiefly because either the applicants and/or their lands were considered unsuitable for the purposes of the scheme. In all, 54 applications progressed to the price negotiation stage and, in 14 of these cases, agreement on price has, in fact, been reached.

This is a vital stage in the procedure as price agreement is an essential prerequisite to acceptance of an applicant and to making him an advance under the scheme. It is only when agreement on price has been reached with a landowner that he knows the extent of financial assistance which he may expect from the Land Commission, thus enabling him to shop around for a suitable new farm on the basis of what he will receive for his own holding and the amount of loan available to him.

Of the 14 cases in which price agreement was reached, seven have been provided with self migration advances and have now gone into possession of their new holdings; in one other case, the necessary legal formalities are being completed and in the remaining six cases the Land Commission are awaiting proposals from the approved applicants regarding the new farms selected by them and the amount of loan they will require.

The seven completed cases—for which advances and free grants totalling approximately £29,000 were made by the Land Commission—have provided an area of 300 acres for land settlement. The holdings purchased by these seven successful applicants contain, in aggregate, 840 acres. The other seven cases involve the Land Commission in a potential maximum commitment of some £37,000 by way of advances and free grants and, if these transactions can be successfully concluded, they will release a further aggregate area of about 390 acres for the land reform programme.

The results from this scheme to date are, I am afraid, rather disappointing, even allowing for the fact that the scheme is restricted to landowners in the scheduled congested areas and that approved applicants are allowed a period of 12 months in which to shop around for new holdings. I am having another look at the scheme to see whether anything can be done to increase its attractiveness.

Informal booklets have been prepared for the guidance of landowners interested in the schemes and any Deputy who wishes can obtain copies by getting in touch with the Land Commission.

Subhead G.3 provides £10,000 for payment in cash of compensation for tenancy interests resumed on the small outstanding residue of Congested Districts Board estates. The fourth and final part of the subhead relates to the payment by the Land Commission of auctioneers' commission on relevant purchases of Land for cash and land bonds. It is anticipated that £80,000 will be required this year. Perhaps I should explain here that up to 1963 the practice was to pay auctioneers' commission only in respect of lands purchased by the Land Commission for cash under section 27 of the Land Act, 1950. This was extended in 1963 to properties purchased on a voluntary basis for land bonds. The extension of payment of commission on the lines indicated has proved a decided incentive to auctioneers to offer lands on their books to the Land Commission thus facilitating an acceleration in land acquisition for the relief of congestion. My own preference is for voluntary rather than compulsory transactions and I freely acknowledge the co-operation and assistance of auctioneers in this matter.

Subhead H provides the funds for payment of gratuities pursuant to section 29 of the Land Act, 1950, to persons displaced from employment on estates taken over by the Land Commission for distribution. Last year, gratuities totalling £4,670 were paid to 19 ex-employees, an average of £245 each. Perhaps I should emphasise that displaced employees who are deemed competent to work land are automatically considered for allotments—indeed, this is only right and proper—but, where they are not found to be suitable for allotments, they are considered by the Land Commission for a cash gratuity, depending on such factors as length of service, personal and family circumstances, availability of alternative employment and so on. It is difficult to make an accurate forecast of commitments under the subhead in any particular year because this depends on the level of acquisition activity and the extent to which estate workers become displaced from employment through these activities. Last year's figure of £15,000 is being repeated for the current year.

Subhead I provides, in the main, the funds required to meet the cost of the various estate improvement works which are such an important feature of land settlement. These works include the erection of dwellinghouses and out-offices; the provision of access roads; fencing and drainage; the provision of water supply for domestic and stock requirements; turbary development; the repair and maintenance of embankments. These are all costly amenities and expenditure for last year totalled £865,500 including £518,600 on building works. Some 410 men were employed on the various improvement works and their wage bill amounted to almost £239,000.

For the current financial year the amount proposed under the subhead is £1,050,000 which represents an increase of £60,000 over last year's provision and amounts to about 25 per cent of the entire Estimate. This increased provision will, I feel sure, be welcomed by Deputies, particularly those from rural areas, having regard to the importance of estate improvement and development works.

Last year reference was made to an important new development being undertaken by the Land Commission in relation to lands earmarked for migrants and intended for distribution to tenants whose holdings are being rearranged. All such lands are now being rehabilitated prior to allotment, the rehabilitation consisting of lime and fertiliser application. In addition, the Land Commission are also doing the preliminary (reclamation) work on these lands such as drainage, removal of scrub, eradication of rushes and so on. The aim is to give these allottees the best possible start on their holdings. The major portion of the cost involved is being borne direct by the Land Commission, a small proportion being charged to the allottee by means of an addition to his annuity.

The question of improving designs for houses and out-offices being built by the Land Commission continues to receive full consideration. As Deputies are, no doubt, aware, dwellinghouses provided by the Land Commission are fully serviced as to water supply and electricity, where practicable. The design and construction of these houses have recently been revised and many progressive features have been added to fit in with modern needs and trends. Improvements include greatly increased storage space and a utility room which can be used as a fourth bedroom to provide extra accommodation as the family expands.

Modern out-offices now being erected by the Land Commission represent a considerable advance in quality and layout and reflect the most up-to-date thinking on farm accommodation. These provide a good basic set of out-buildings which can be readily adapted for expansion and development if the allottee chooses.

In addition, yard areas have also been increased and black-topping of yards, approach roads and access roads is now being undertaken as a standard feature of improvement works associated with the provision of buildings on new holdings.

The sub-item entitled "Housing Loans" refers to the scheme under which advances up to £500 are made to farmers to supplement grants from the Department of Local Government for the erection of new houses and for reconstruction work on existing houses. During the past year the total amount paid out by way of loans for this purpose was £52,000 to some 120 applicants. The provision for the current year is £70,000.

The application of work study techniques to the estate improvement works of the Land Commission continues. The work study section of the management services unit, through method improvements and the incentive bonus scheme, contributed to maintaining a very high level of productivity on outdoor works. The amount set aside under subhead L for game and wildlife development, £100,000, is an increase of £5,000 on the sum provided last year.

Grants for the preservation and improvement of game resources will continue to be available to assist regional game councils, representative of all appropriate interests, in carrying out approved locally organised schemes of direct improvement of game stocks and habitat. There are now 26 regional game councils active in the country.

During the past year the sum of £48,587 was paid out in respect of 25 schemes of game improvement and a further £1,335 was paid in respect of some previous years' schemes.

Under the guidance of the Department's game advisers, the regional game councils made satisfactory progress during the year, especially in the important work of habitat improvement and the provision of sanctuaries for native and migratory wildfowl. A simplified method of disbursing grants was applied, with success, to some councils during the 1968-69 season and it is hoped to extend the application of the system to other councils in 1969-70.

In addition my Department has commissioned An Foras Talúntais to carry out research on two important features of game development—the rehabilitation of mallard and grouse stocks. Grants totalling £10,440 were paid in the past year. This research is necessarily a long-term project but it is already showing promising results.

The development of the tourism aspect of game-shooting proceeded satisfactorily in the past year and the joint committee of my Department and of Bord Fáilte has sponsored a number of shoots throughout the country to meet the demands of out-of-State visitors.

Conservation of our heritage of wildlife is coming in for increasing and deserved attention on the part of the State and of the community at large. My Department is going steadily ahead with measures for the preservation of habitats of wildlife, in particular of wetland areas vital for our native and migratory wildfowl. The preparation of legislation for the conservation and management of wildlife on modern principles is in hands.

In the context of European Conservation Year, 1970, about which I will speak later, the Department has commissioned the making of a film on the theme of nature and wildlife in Ireland by an Irish artist of international standing. The film will reflect the understanding and feeling for nature and wildlife which feature so largely in our heritage of saga, poetry and folklore.

I have dealt in some detail with the more important subheads of the Lands Vote. As the remaining items are either unchanged from last year or else are token provisions, they do not seem to call for specific comment, but if Deputies wish to obtain further information about them I shall, of course, gladly supply it. I propose therefore to continue by reviewing the principal activities of the Land Commission during the year ended 31st March last. In some instances the statistics are still provisional but they are unlikely to vary to any significant extent from the final returns. The overall results are quite satisfactory.

On the acquisition side, the aggregate area inspected during the year was 60,000 acres while the total intake of land amounted to about 33,000 acres. As the total area in the acquisition machine at 31st March, 1969, amounted to some 83,000 acres, acquisition prospects for the current year are good.

As regards land settlement for the year the total area allotted amongst some 1,582 allottees was in the region of 30,700 acres. The acreage distributed included the provision of 55 fully-equipped holdings for migrants and the rearrangement of 348 fragmented holdings. In all 125 new dwellinghouses and 118 new out-offices were provided for tenants and allottees during the year. With the increased funds which are now being made available I am hopeful that an accelerated rate of land division can be achieved in the present year.

The vesting of holdings and allotments was continued and, in all, about 2,600 holdings, parcels and rights of turbary were dealt with. Tenanted land—including residues of CDB estates—outstanding for vesting at 31 March, 1969, comprises approximately 5,700 holdings. These residual holdings, situated for the most part in western congested counties, now represent the remaining hard core of difficult tenanted land cases: they are being released for vesting according as the necessary rearrangement, enlargement or other improvement is carried out.

The position as regards collection of land annuities continues satisfactory. Out of a collectable total of £2,772,120 for the year, the amount actually collected by 31 March, 1969, was £2,650,352.

When replying to the debate on last year's Estimate my predecessor referred to the fact that he was examining how we can strengthen the economy of the small farmer by encouraging more co-operation. For some time past the idea of a system of group farming has been under consideration and study in my Department. Group farming can range from a simple arrangement for the joint purchase of materials, such as time or fertilisers, to a more integrated system involving the pooling of land, labour, equipment and resources. The experiment in group farming which has been initiated will involve the pooling of all resources of the group, including the land itself. The participants will form themselves into a company and the land as well as the livestock, machinery etc. will be owned and managed by the company. The envisaged arrangement is entirely voluntary.

Experience elsewhere indicates that group farming is not devoid of inherent problems and careful appraisal of the advantage to be gained is necessary before embarking on the system on a wide scale. I am satisfied, however, that the potentialities and possibilities of promoting this type of farming project can be rewarding. Should it prove to be so, I am hopeful that a new dimension can be added to the scope of Land Commission activities and that group farming will prove a useful means of raising farm income and rural living standards, particularly in areas of small-scale farming.

As Deputies know there is now in operation a system of direct control by the Land Commission over the purchase of rural land by persons who are not "qualified persons" as defined in section 45 of the Land Act, 1965— principally non-nationals. The position generally now is that no interest in non-urban land can vest in a person who does not come within the categories of "qualified person" as defined in section 45 (1) of the Act except with the written consent of the Land Commission. In general permission is not granted to non-nationals to purchase land in order to engage simply in those forms or lines of production commonly practised by our farmers; "white-elephant" properties unable or unlikely to attract Irish purchasers in the market could be entertained for sale to outsiders. A non-national who could illustrate that he was going in for some special line with expertise and capital to back it up, and with export possibilities, could very well be acceptable. During the past year—apart from what might be called unobjectionable transactions, that is to say those (a) arising solely from mortgage interests, (b) involving areas not exceeding five acres and (c) representing transfers between one non-citizen, individual or company, and another—the total acreage in respect of which the consent of the Land Commission, pursuant to section 45 of the Act, was given to the vesting of interests in land in non-qualified persons as individuals or companies controlled by non-citizens was 4,767 acres. A substantial proportion of the acreage involved consisted of the types of property which could hold no attraction for the ordinary Irish purchaser. The corresponding area for the previous year was 4,500 acres.

The improvement of farm structure in western areas commands a key position in the Land Commission order of priorities. The structural reform of sub-standard holdings coupled with the elimination of fragmentation and rundale is a prerequisite to the development of any purposeful agricultural programme in the west.

The overall ambition of land policy is to establish sound and worthwhile agricultural units, satisfying to the owner, in which productivity can be raised and which in turn will yield their quota in the campaign for competitive export of farming produce.

Turning to the Forestry Vote there is a net increase of £403,000 in the amount being provided for 1969-70 compared with that provided for 1968-69.

The Estimate as framed provides for a full planting programme of 25,000 acres. There was uncertainty when the Estimate was being framed as to whether this target could be achieved. It is now clear that we cannot reach that figure and this year's programme will be of the order of 22,000 to 23,000 acres. The difficulty continues to be the inadequacy of our plantable reserve and, while the tide appears to be turning, as will be seen when I deal later with subhead C.1, it now seems probable that we will not be able to get back to the full 25,000 acre programme until 1971-72.

I would like to draw the attention of Deputies to a new head of subhead C.2 —Forest Development and Management—entitled Amenity Development. It is subhead C.2 (4) for which £75,000 is being provided in the current year. We have become increasingly conscious of the fact that in the process of developing State forestry as a form of commercial investment, we have developed at the same time a priceless amenity asset. State forests are attractive and as they mature they increasingly attract both local residents and tourists. In recent years we have been actively seeking, in consultation with Bord Fáilte and county councils, to foster this by opening suitable State forests to an increasing extent for public use.

Deputies will, of course, be aware of the existence of Gougane Barra Forest Park, of the John F. Kennedy Park, County Wexford, of substantial public facilities at Glengarriff and of the major Forest Park construction in progress at Lough Key near Boyle, County Roscommon. They may not be so well aware that scattered throughout the country are many other forest areas in which facilities are being developed to enable the public to enjoy their amenities to a greater extent. For the most part these have been provided as part of the normal forest programme. Roads are necessary for all forest traffic; it costs no more to let people walk on them. What is necessary is the addition of footpaths, picnic facilities, access to particular viewpoints and so forth. The multiple use concept of the forest is now well established and it can be realised without interference with the main object of the forest undertaking which is the production of commercial timber. I foresee a steadily growing emphasis on the use of State forests for recreation, conservation and amenity purposes and the provision of £75,000 under this new head gives formal recognition to the development work required to provide for these activities.

Turning to the detail of the Estimate, there are no significant changes in subheads C.3, D or F. So far as the remaining subheads are concerned the following is the position.

Salaries, wages and allowances— subhead A—at £1,099,990 shows an increase of £64,990 over the provision for 1968-69. The increased provision covers the normal growth of the inspectorate and forester staff in line with the expansion of the State forests and some strengthening of the administrative and engineering staff. It also includes provision for expenditure arising from the 11th round of pay increases.

Travelling, and incidental expenses— subhead B.1—at £227,700 shows an increase of £26,700 over the 1968-69 provision because of increased travelling arising from the continued expansion of the State forest area and provision for some increase in travel costs and miscellaneous expenses.

Post office services—Subhead B.2— at £66,600 shows an increase of £15,000 over the 1968-69 Estimate arising from the increased cost of postage and handling of stores and the extension of forest telephone services.

Subhead C.1 is the grant-in-aid for the acquisition of land. The balance in the fund on 1st April, 1968, was almost £262,000; with a new provision of £175,000, a total of £437,000 was available for purchase of land in 1969-70.

Expenditure in 1968-69 was £123,261 in respect of a productive area of 12,231 acres acquired in 288 transactions. This was completely inadequate against a planting target of 25,000 acres per annum. The nominal plantable reserve now stands at about 53,000 acres but, as this includes many areas which for one reason or another are not immediately available for planting, the true reserve is about 35,000 acres.

The House has already been advised in previous years of the problems arising from an inadequate land reserve which have prevented the forestry service from maintaining its target of 25,000 acres per annum for the last few years. While one cannot with certainty look into the future, I am happy to inform the House that there are now good grounds for hope that we have at last turned the corner on the land acquisition problem. Present indications, including the amount of lands on offer in the pipeline, are that the new price structure for forest lands coupled with the streamlined procedure for offer and inspection have had the desired effect and that the land reserve position is likely to improve substantially over the next few years. Deputies will realise that such an improvement is not alone necessary as a basis for resumption of the full 25,000 acres per annum planting programme but is critically important as an aid to better planning of forest work programmes and the maintenance of steady employment levels.

Forest Development and Management—subhead C.2—at £3,766,000 is, of course, the main expenditure subhead in this Vote. The work funded out of the subhead includes amenity development, which I referred to in my opening remarks, but the major provisions in the subhead relate to the raising of nursery stock in the State forest nurseries, the establishment costs of all new planting including ground preparation and fencing, road and bridge construction, the purchase and maintenance of all forest machinery and the hire of suitable machinery from outside sources, the general cost of maintaining and protecting all our existing acreage of forest plantations, now standing at over half a million acres in extent, and finally the cost of such timber felling and conversion as we now undertake by direct labour in our forests. The provision in the subhead shows an overall increase in cost of £493,000 on the provision for 1968-69. The increase includes provision for the cost of 11th round of wage increases for forestry workers as negotiated in 1968 as well as for the cost of a reduction in working hours. It also included provision for a service pay scheme for forestry workers. The total sum provided for labour under the various heads is £2,773,000.

In framing the Estimate no allowance was, of course, made for the extension of the 11th round which has this year been granted to forestry workers. This represents £1 5s 0d per worker from the 1st June of this year and a further £1 per worker from the 1st October as well as an adjustment in the rate of incentive bonus payable to workers and will involve additional expenditure of £300,000 in the current year on this subhead.

These increases in labour costs make it necessary to pursue with increasing vigour the aim of cost reduction which has over the years been a primary concern of the forestry service. The pioneering of work study on a large scale in forest establishment phases has been progressively extended into method improvement and at the present juncture there is no aspect of our field operations which has not been subjected to rigorous scrutiny in regard to specifications and objectives—the overall aim being that every pound spent should yield a return in terms of volume or quality of timber in the long term.

Nursery practice has benefited considerably from improved technology and very substantial improvements in unit costs have been achieved. Overall expenditure on planting has fallen in sympathy with the fall in planting programme but costs have also been affected significantly by the absence from recent planting programmes of any considerable content of scrub clearance on old woodland areas, an operation which has a very high labour content. Such areas in private hands are now commonly being reclaimed under land project grant and are less readily available than formerly for acquisition for forestry; where such areas are still acquired, we have been cutting our preparation costs by new methods.

Progress on road construction is maintained to keep pace with timber extraction requirements but, so far as practicable, expenditure on road construction is normally deferred as long as possible to conserve capital and to ensure that the planning of road systems will be carried out with the best knowledge of technological improvements and will take into account improvements in extraction machinery on which a lot of development work is being done in the big timber-producing countries. In maintenance operations, the area of plantations requiring maintenance is growing from year to year but improvements in techniques, particularly in the use of chemical herbicides, have made possible some substantial reductions in unit costs of labour.

The balance of all these factors has tended in recent years towards a gradually reducing requirement of labour in real terms although the absolute cost of labour has risen very considerably. The net effect is that average employment in the current year will be at a somewhat lower level than last year's figure of 3,677 men but the reduction is almost entirely in casual employment. There is, in fact, a continuing trend towards more stable and, therefore, more useful employment in the State forests. Of the gross total being provided for forestry in this Estimate, 73 per cent is being spent on labour, including salaries, wages and allowances.

The rapid extension of State forests in recent years has meant that well over half of the 500,000 acres now under State forests are vulnerable to fire danger. It is, of course, in the early years of growth that forests in this country are most vulnerable. The extension of a multiple land use policy, to which I have already referred, while mainly associated with more mature forests inevitably brings the public into contact with the younger forest areas, and therefore increases the hazard of accidental fire. We have been heartened by the increased consciousness of people of the usefulness of the State forests and of their potential as a pleasant environment. We believe that this consciousness is growing and that recreational facilities for the public in our forests is our best fire insurance. Nonetheless every year several hundred acres of State forests planted at the people's expense are destroyed through acts of carelessness or negligence. May I use this forum to appeal again to every member of the community to exercise that little extra care in or near State forests that will ensure that no act of theirs will leave a scarred, burnt-out area which can only be restored with time and at heavy cost to the tax payer?

Forestry education—subhead E—a minor increase on this head was needed to cover increases in allowances to forestry trainees and the full expenditure requirements of the new Avondale Forestry Extension School.

The new extension school is a very important addition to the forestry service's staff training system. In recent years, forest authorities throughout the world have found it necessary to reappraise critically all the accepted norms of traditional forest management in order to meet the impact of rising costs and keen competition in world trade. We, as a country engaged in large-scale capital investment in new forests, saw the warning lights at a relatively early stage and we have been progressively overhauling our whole approach to forestry over the past decade or more. We pioneered the application of modern work study methods to the crop establishment phases of forest work and there has been a continuing forward movement both in forestry techniques and practice and in the introduction of modern management techniques. With continuing change and development, it is critically important to have constant provision for updating staff-training and the new extension school is already providing a very valuable service here. The school is used continuously for short refresher and intensive courses for forest service personnel at all levels. It will play a very important part in the management structure of the forest service.

The John F. Kennedy Park—sub-head G—at £26,000 shows a reduction of £103,000 on the provision for 1968-69. The provision for 1968-69 included major capital charges, whereas the current provision is, in the main, in respect of plants and labour. It is expected that actual expenditure will exceed the provision by some £18,000 mainly because of charges that did not mature for payment last year. The excess will be met by economies on other heads of the Vote. Considerable progress has already been made in extending the range of trees and shrubs in the park which, apart altogether from its scientific importance, is becoming a major tourist attraction. It has already become necessary to double the size of the large car-park originally provided there. The need for a catering facility to provide light meals has also become apparent and plans are in hand to provide this. In its first year since opening, the park attracted over 100,000 visitors and very many of these visitors have written to the Department making favourable comment on the park and on the facilities provided there.

As the House is aware, the nucleus of the fund for the development of the park came from the Kennedy Memorial Committee in America—an organisation representing most of the Irish-American Societies in the United States. They undertook to provide a fund of $100,000 towards the park and this they had achieved before the park was formally opened in May, 1968. The American Committee have in fact exceeded their target and within the last few weeks I received from their representatives a further contribution of £19,000 representing about $45,000. I am sure the House will join with me in expressing appreciation of the support given by the Irish-American Societies concerned to this important project.

Under subhead H, Appropriations-in-Aid, allowance has been made in the Estimate for an increase of £129,500 in revenue from timber sales. Markets for both sawlog material and pulpwood continue buoyant and I am hopeful that this additional revenue will be secured. The indications for the future continue to be of a steady increase in output of small dimension material for which markets are available for some time ahead in existing processing industries. In sawlogs we expect to maintain and slightly increase present production over the next few years.

As to future prospects for industrial development in the timber processing field, H.A. Simons Ltd. of Vancouver, a firm of consultants in pulp and paper commissioned jointly by the IDA and the Minister for Lands, have reported that expansions by the existing mills in the fields of chipboard and hardboard production for export markets and newsprint for domestic consumption provide the most promising outlets at this stage for our expanding production of pulpwood. Expansions planned by these existing industries will absorb the growth in pulpwood availability up to about 1975 and the study made by the consultants suggests that a review of the position should be carried out in the early 1970's; the consultants advised that no ad hoc or piece-meal industrial projects should be encouraged in the meantime.

The Forestry Division has in hands a new long-term production forecast which will be available next year and this forecast will provide the necessary background for a further review of progress and possibilities in this field of industrial expansion. The report by the consultants contains information on the present activities and expansion projects of the existing industries which is confidential to the individual companies concerned and was supplied under conditions of confidence. For this reason, the full report is not being published.

An undertaking of significance in relation to the future marketing of our timber is the research into the properties of Irish-grown timber which is being carried out for my Department by the Institute for Industrial Research and Standards, the cost of which is borne on subhead F of this Estimate. Reports on some of our timber species have already been published and, in relation to strength properties and other essential characteristics, the results have been most encouraging. The programme of testing is continuing and will cover all species which are of importance in our planting programme.

I made reference in dealing with the Lands Vote to European Conservation Year 1970. Responsibility for the organisation of Conservation Year has been assigned by the Government to my Department and very satisfactory progress has already been made in building up contacts and establishing a National Committee with various working committees to co-ordinate the programme for the year in this country and to plan activities on a national scale. A provision for expenditure in connection with Conservation Year will appear in the Forestry Estimate for 1970-71. No expenditure of any consequence will arise during the current year and such incidental expenses as may be incurred for preliminary promotion work can be met from appropriate subheads of this year's Estimate.

The basic aim of European Conservation Year is to make the people of Ireland and of every other European country aware of their fundamental interest in preservation of the natural environment—soil, air, water and plant and animal life. Here, as in other countries, such awareness is the first requisite if the community as a whole is to learn to co-operate in maintaining and fostering the many values of its natural heritage now and in the years to come. This is an aim to which the Government give their full support and the Taoiseach has accepted an invitation to act as Ireland's representative on the European Board of Patrons for Conservation Year.

During 1970 activities will be organised at national and local level and I would ask Deputies to lend their full support to the efforts being made. The importance of nature conservation has been highlighted by recent examples of damage to scenery and environment and by the attention directed to some bad cases of pollution. The object of Conservation Year, let me emphasise, is not to seek out scapegoats or to indulge in recrimination against anybody. Rather is it the purpose the better to equip people at all levels in the community with an understanding of the basic values of the environment, the ways in which it may be damaged and the ultimate cost to the community of such damage. In that way we can lay a firm foundation on which to base decisions as to protective measures which will themselves cost money and can only be justified if the expenditure is seen to be necessary and worthwhile. It is an inescapable fact of life, too long unrecognised throughout the world, that modern civilisation with all its economic and technological advances, enormously increases the sources and extent of environmental damage. Economic and technological advance is necessary to survival but it must be so orientated as to minimise and, where possible, eliminate damage. I believe the programme of activity which is being prepared for Conservation Year will take us a major stride forward.

I move:

That the Estimate be referred back for re-consideration.

We are not satisfied with the progress that has been made to date, and we are not satisfied that the Irish Land Commission as organised at present can accomplish the work which remains to be accomplished between now and our entry into the EEC. The land of Ireland, on which the prosperity of each and every one of us and, indeed, the nation, depends, for far too long has been made the plaything of party politics and party politicians. Cumainn and clubs have been kept alive for as long as 20 years by Deputies promising to divide So-and-So's farm.

I am sorry that the Minister for Lands here last week again showed political bias when he stated that, as far as Fianna Fáil were concerned, auctioneers attached to the party got the jobs in particular counties or particular areas.

Everything else being equal.

I am sorry that day has not passed. I believe that, due to the immense amount of work that has to be done with regard to land division between now and our entry into the EEC, all parties, and members of all parties, should forget politics and unite, co-operate and work together.

Abolish all the political parties? Everyone wants to take everything out of politics. We are here because we are in politics.

I agree that we are here because we are in politics, but because of the importance of the work that has to be done inside the next few years, I think we should all co-operate, together with the voluntary organisations throughout the country, in an effort to acquire the maximum amount of land and have it divided before we enter the EEC because, when we enter the EEC, we may not be allowed to acquire land or to divide it amongst landless people.

And a good thing, too.

That may be. It is very hard to know. The people who are looking for land would not agree with Deputy O'Donovan.

In the Second Programme for Economic Expansion published a few years ago, it was envisaged that 70,000 people would leave the land of Ireland between then and 1972. So, we may take it that roughly another 40,000 will leave the land of Ireland inside the next three or four years. We know that about 10,000 people are leaving the land each year. Unfortunately, the people who are leaving the land tend to be the young and the ambitious, those who are, I suppose, less likely to accept lower living standards or limited opportunities. At the same time, they are the people who if given a chance could contribute to the building up of a healthy rural community.

I agree that many of our farms are so small and so infertile that no conceivable level of commodity prices could provide the potential owners in the 1970s with an acceptable standard of living. The young people today are not prepared to put up with the drudgery that their fathers and mothers did for years. They see their brothers and sisters going into the towns and getting good employment and having money to jingle in their pockets. It is not surprising that they are not prepared to stay at home and work hard. I think it is the ideal of all parties here that we must have a bigger rural community with a vigorous rural family as the basis of the rural community. This can only be achieved if the State can provide the rural community with an acceptable standard of living and adequate outlets for their talents and ambitions.

The conclusion is inescapable: that a major reorganisation of the structure of the Irish Land Commission is necessary to ensure that the maximum amount of land is acquired within the next few years. The Irish Land Commission as at present constituted has outlived its usefulness. Major reforms of State activities in the rural development field are necessary. The Irish Land Commission is too conservative; it is lacking in drive and initiative. The time has arrived for the establishment of a rural development authority, controlled perhaps by farmers and other rural interests, who would take over many of the operational functions of the Department of Lands and of the Forestry Division.

This national rural development authority would act as the top level advisory group reporting direct to the Minister in person. Secondly, in order to get the co-operation of all, there would be county or regional organisations run jointly by the rural development authority staff, representatives of such organisations as the NFA, Macra na Feirme, Young Farmers' Clubs, as well as any other bodies or individuals with a special contribution to make. The local organisation would have full executive power within its own area. It may be interesting to point out that the suggestion I have just made is fully supported by the Devlin Report from which I quote:

There is a number of clear logical reasons why the Departments of Agriculture and Lands should be combined, the principal of these which are (a) the opportunity of securing closer co-ordination and planning with the agricultural functions of Government and the possibility of co-ordinating more closely and managing more effectively the many field activities involved.

The report also follows closely the lines I have suggested by recommending that the executive work of both Departments should be separated from the central authority by assigning to it executive units which would be decentralised with large regional staffs.

I am convinced that local enthusiasm and initiative are essential for any successful programme of land division. Such initiative and enthusiasm can only be stimulated by delegating to farmers and their advisers at local authority level to take decisions about the development of land and farms and also control of the funds needed to do it. We all agree in this House that as many as possible of the 10,000 to 14,000 young boys and girls who are leaving the land every year should be given employment in their own country. They are the cream of society. It is the desire of each and every one of us to provide employment for every able-bodied person in this country. Because our resources are limited many people have no alternative but to emigrate.

If we look back over the past fifty years since we got control of our own destiny, we see that things do not proceed as was envisaged by the people of 1916 and others who fought for our right to govern ourselves. From figures I got last year from the Taoiseach it is evident that even since 1932, 1,300,000 people have left this country, and over 1,000,000 of those came from the land of Ireland. The Government have dismally failed to recognise our national responsibility to provide those who no longer wish to continue in farming with an alternative career within the country. The Land Commission have also failed. I do not want to say that any Government or any Minister could in a short time provide full employment for all our people, but I do suggest that the Land Commission have not done all they could have done and have not worked fast enough in that direction.

We are at a slight disadvantage because we did not get the Minister's speech until he was almost finished dealing with the Department of Lands, so I hope that if we quote some figures that are not absolutely correct he will understand. The Minister spoke about the cash payment for farmers. I should like to quote from the Irish Independent of 22nd November, 1966, in which there is a report of a press interview with the Minister at which that scheme was announced:

A scheme under which the Land Commission would offer a cash payment or pension in exchange for small farms throughout the country is being worked out by the Department of Lands. It is expected that about 15,000 people over 65 years of age will take part in the scheme. The Land Commission plans in this way to be able to take over and utilise small farms, to enlarge other farms and make them into economic units. The broad outlines of the scheme were announced by the Minister for Lands in the White Paper and were again discussed during the Estimates for the Department. The figures are now being revised and it is thought that more precise details may be ready within the next few months. It is estimated that there are about 60,000 farms occupied by people over 60 years of age, about 6,000 of whom are living alone.

We were informed, there, that the figure was 15,000. The officials in the Department must have given very bad information at that time. The Minister gave figures in his speech here today which indicate that in the first year, 1967, only one person surrendered his land. In the next year there were 17 and up until now the total number of people who have surrendered their lands under this scheme is 22. Something drastic will have to be done in regard to this scheme.

In his speech last year the Minister for Lands was inclined to pat himself on the back about the progress being made in the scheme which was introduced under section 6 of the Land Act, 1965, for an annuity scheme to encourage elderly, incapacitated, or blind farmers to retire. The figures given at that time, and the figures I have just given, suggest there must be serious weaknesses in this scheme. The Minister told us today that, of between 375 and 380 applicants received under the scheme 138, almost half, were eliminated. I will quote the Minister's own words that the reason for this elimination was because "the lands concerned were not found suitable". If suitability is to be the criterion of whether or not an applicant will be accepted for an annuity this will mean that the most urgent cases, the cases which it should be our prime object to deal with, are going to be eliminated. Furthermore, I think it needs to be accepted that in many cases the price to be paid in the form of an annuity will have to be somewhat more than the actual market value of the land to the Land Commission. The fact is that a scheme of this kind should be considered not strictly as an economic operation but as a social welfare one as well. It is desirable that a significant number of people no longer effectively able to earn a decent living on their farms be helped to retire.

The aim of the scheme was to increase the pool of land available for division amongst uneconomic holders. I think the Minister will have to alter this scheme. I am not certain if he mentioned his intention to do so in his speech, but I would suggest that it needs to be altered and that he should provide more attractive pensions, or some other compensation, for these people. The pensions or the compensation envisaged in the scheme must have proved completely inadequate because instead of the 15,000 people we were told would avail of the scheme only 22 have done so.

I do not believe the market value of the holding is an adequate basis for a scheme of this kind since it is those whose holdings have the lowest marketable value who need—as the Minister will agree—most assistance. For the younger people who wish to pursue alternative careers in the rural community a new drive to provide employment opportunities in industry, tourism and forestry should be started. This programme should include better special training schemes, resettlement allowances and the provision of houses. Some of the grants have not been changed for a number of years and they certainly need to be increased at the present time.

I agree that it is the duty of this House to furnish the Land Commission with different ways and means to be used in a determined effort to build up basic farm structure. It is also our duty to ensure that the powers and the finances of the Land Commission be adequate to meet the needs at home and abroad at the present time.

The farmers in this country are entitled, as are all other sections of the community, to a fair deal and a fair standard of living. Many of the small landowners in the congested areas in the past have not received this. We have to ensure that the small landowner no longer remains the hewer of wood and the drawer of water. When the Minister for Lands was speaking on the Land Bill in 1963 he said:

...that voluntary bodies addressed themselves in workmanlike fashion to a study of the structural problems of Irish land-holding and they submitted very informative papers to the Taoiseach and to the Government.

I should like to know what has happened to this because we do not seem to have changed or to have made the desired progress since then.

I would ask the Minister to bear in mind the necessity for carrying out as much of the groundwork as possible during the next few months in an effort to build up as big a pool of land as we possibly can before we join the European Economic Community. The fact that there has been a delay in our entry in the last few years should be a Godsend as far as land division is concerned, but we must make the fullest use of the breathing space afforded us to acquire as much land as possible.

I would be interested to hear the Deputy's views of what the likely effects on land structure our entry into the EEC would have?

I may deal with that later on. I think it must be agreed, as far as we are all concerned and as far as the future structure is concerned, that it must be based on the traditional family farm. In the 1920s and 1930s a 20-acre farm was regarded by the Land Commission as an economic unit. In the 1940s the minimum acreage required to be regarded as an economic unit was increased to 30. In the 1960s it was increased to 45 and, by present standards, it could be argued that the minimum acreage required to give farmers an opportunity of earning a decent livelihood is 50 or 60 acres.

I agree that the available pool of land is limited and that the Irish Land Commission must do the best they can for the greatest number with that pool of land while at the same time making the family farm capable of giving the family a standard of living comparable with that available to similar families engaged in non-agricultural pursuits.

As I have said, the minimum size of family farm now aimed at is 45 acres of good land or its equivalent in land of mixed quality but it can be argued that this is an unrealistic target having regard to the kind of figures recently published by the Irish Agricultural Institute on farm incomes. For example, assuming that a man has one of these 45-acre farms, that he was using it averagely efficiently and that he was engaged in creamery milk operations, according to the figures we have seen recently, he could expect a farm income of £650 per year. We know that at the present time an agricultural labourer is entitled to almost that amount.

He is entitled to £150 more a year. In the light of returns from other occupations and the standard of living which the young farmer expects and will increasingly demand in the 1960s, this is a completely unrealistic figure. This target is not only meaningless but is mischievous. It means that the Irish Land Commission is working away at the present moment establishing farm units which even now are uneconomic in terms of the income they produce and are likely to be less viable in future as standards and expectations rise.

It is also interesting to note that the Devlin Report states that the original objectives of the Land Commission are now virtually achieved. I am not inclined to agree with that. There is a great deal of valuable work for the Irish Land Commission to do in the next few years. I suppose this is a problem facing the whole country. Unfortunately, as regards farm incomes we seem to be losing ground. The gap is becoming larger and larger as between those engaged in industrial and other pursuits and those engaged on the land. A few years ago I got figures from the Taoiseach which indicated that the gap was around £3 10s. Now it is moving to £5 or £5 10s. per week. Therefore, it will be much more difficult in the years ahead to get people to stay on the land. The same problems arise universally. The late Holy Father, Pope John XXIII, writing of the depressed state of small landowners a few years ago had some pertinent questions to ask. I quote:

What can be done to ensure that agricultural living standards approximate as closely as possible to those enjoyed by city dwellers who draw their resources either from industry or the public services in which they are engaged? What can be done to persuade agricultural workers that far from being inferior to other people they have every opportunity of developing their personalities through their work and can look forward to the future with confidence?

The answer to these questions cannot in the nature of things be simple but in order to ensure that agricultural living standards approximate as closely as possible those enjoyed by city dwellers we must have larger family farms, we must aim at farms nearer to 60 acres than to 40 acres.

There is no use in making that case without admitting that in achieving this there is bound to be a reduction in the number of families engaged on the land because, as I said earlier, it is admitted that the people on the land will not tolerate the conditions that their fathers and mothers experienced. Therefore, many small farms may come on the market. The Department should give every help to uneconomic holders to purchase such farms so as to make their holdings viable or, alternatively, the Irish Land Commission should acquire them and divide them amongst uneconomic holders in the area. This is desirable but I want to impress upon the Minister that there is a very dangerous trend creeping in, that business people and professional people, doctors, solicitors and others, are at present bidding for and are acquiring land to the detriment of smallholders. I suppose very little can be done in that respect. I am not certain if anything can be done about it. As I stated earlier, an increase to 60 acres means that there will be fewer people on the land of Ireland. Nobody wants deliberately to reduce the number of families engaged in farming so as to bring about some arbitrary increase in the acreage size of farms but the Department and the country will have to face up to this problem. The aim of all should be to achieve social justice through economic progress and economic progress through social justice. We all want to see an end to drudgery on the land. We all want to see established on the land of Ireland sound economic family units who will work the land in their own interest and in the interest of the country and that the people living on the land will live in ordinary frugal comfort. They ask no more and they seek no less.

I admit that there is a huge problem facing the Department at the present time. I got figures last week from the Minister for Lands. While there are now 353,000 farms in Ireland, leaving out farms of from one-quarter acre to one acre, we find that in the province of Leinster there are still 31,230 farmers who have less than 30 acres of land and every one of those can certainly be regarded as an uneconomic holder. In Munster, we find that there are 31,076 farms of from five to 30 acres. In Connacht, there are 49,333 farms of between five and 30 acres and these are certainly all uneconomic holdings. In the three counties of Ulster there are 25,086 such farms. Therefore, there are 136,725 farms of between five and 30 acres of land out of a total of 353,845 farms. In other words, almost 45 per cent of the farms in Ireland can be classified as uneconomic holdings, because, as I stated, generally speaking all holdings under £20 valuation and roughly 30 acres of land are uneconomic and, according to this criterion. we have today this enormous figure of 136,000 uneconomic holders all looking for whatever land is available for division. Even if we were to get the Six Counties in the morning, uninhabited, there would not be enough land to solve our congestion problem Though these holdings are uneconomic their owners have not been idle or lazy. If they were lazy they would have disappeared long ago like so many of their countrymen, who had bigger resources but who, nevertheless, left the land.

We would like to see all farmers with a maximum of 55 to 60 acres but we are all aware of the scarcity of land. The solution to the problem lies in intensified production, higher capital investment and more intensive agricultural advisory services. Farmers in Rush, five or six miles from the city, can make a good living on five or six acres under glass or farmed intensively. If a great many more farmers engaged in the same kind of intensive production there would be a glut and it would become uneconomic to continue producing. We know there are very small farms with large enterprises and very large farms with very small enterprises. That cannot be denied. We know, too, that the man with 30 acres carrying on intensive dairying, combined with an efficient pig or poultry unit, may have a larger output than the man with 100 acres producing cattle.

The Minister spoke about the new designs for houses and out-offices. We all welcome these. For too long it was possible to identify the Land Commission house. That was quite wrong. The Land Commission should move with the times and keep abreast of developments in architecture and engineering. Houses and out-offices should be designed to such fashion as to enable the farmer and his wife to do their work with the maximum of efficiency and a minimum of labour. These houses should be showpieces, places to which young farmers could come when they want to build houses for themselves and their wives. This is a welcome trend. The Department and everybody concerned are to be congratulated on the improvement in design in both houses and out-offices.

Last year, the Minister's predecessor stated at column 1135 of volume 236 of the Official Report:

It has been decided that all such lands are to be rehabilitated prior to allotment. The rehabilitation consists of lime and fertiliser application and the cost is about £8 an acre. In addition, the Land Commission are also doing the preliminary reclamation work on these lands, such as drainage, removal of scrub, eradication of rushes and so on.

That is good work, but is there overlapping? Is the work done in conjunction with the land project or have the Land Commission their own trained staff? I suppose there is a certain amount of overlapping, but the money is money well spent. I thought the sum last year a modest one and I think more money could be allocated for this purpose because it is, as I say, money well spent.

I understand directions have been given that land is not to be held by the Land Commission beyond a certain period. I think it is a year or two years. At the end of that period it must be divided. I trust that policy will be carried out in all counties.

I have some criticism to offer with regard to water supply. There seems to be some breakdown in liaison between the Land Commission and the ESB. In January of 1968 six farmers came to Archerstown in Delvin. They were told they would be supplied with water. They got in touch with me and I got in touch with the Department of Lands. I was told they would have the water as quickly as possible. On 27th April I got in touch with the ESB and they told me the pump had not yet been ordered. In the meantime these families were without water for over seven months. The Land Commission should have notified the ESB of the requirements and placed their orders.

There is an even worse case. I have raised it with the Minister and with his predecessors. This relates to the Whitehall Estate in Edgeworthstown. There are seven families there without water since 1962. Wash handbasins and toilets have been installed but there was no water. There is no water for domestic purposes and no water for stock. I have raised this several times and each time I have been told the Land Commission is doing its best. Pumps were sunk but they proved ineffective. Everyone should appreciate the hardship inflicted on small farmers who are left completely without water, even for human consumption. Picture the position this year! There was no water for stock.

In this particular case they had to travel three and four miles. One or two families had tractors but others had to draw the water with the horse and cart. That is completely wrong. I would ask the Minister to see if anything can be done about that particular case. I do not like mentioning individual cases in this House but that has gone on for so long that I thought the time had certainly come to mention it here.

I should also like to mention to the Minister the question of this double annuity structure imposed on all land distributed outside the congested area since the passing of the Land Act, 1963. In my opinion, it amounts to a rack rent annuity placed on newly-divided land. The Land Commission are finding it very hard in certain farms to get people despite the fact that the majority of small farmers are anxious to get extra land. I know from land commissioners and from neighbours that in some cases they have had to bring five, six and seven families from Counties Mayo, Galway and other places to show them the land but when they heard the price they refused to take it. They are getting away with the old annuity.

There are many other people in the county who are asked to pay—some of them have accepted it and are paying it—as high as £17 per statute acre for land. I know that some of this land for which they are now paying £17 was set for as low as £5 and some of it for £8 per acre. It was put up in the open market for eleven months and that is the price it went for. Some of those people are unable to pay this rack rent. It is placing a real hardship and indeed an unbearable burden on many small farmers and especially on many small farmers who come from parts of Counties Longford, Cavan, Monaghan and from my own county because they are still outside the congested area.

I think that portion of the county was designated a congested area by a British Act of 1906. I do know that when the Bill was going through the Dáil the Minister for Agriculture did get power and permission and did inform us that other areas would be designated congested areas. Certainly there are parts of Longford, Cavan and Monaghan where the land is much inferior to land in say, Roscommon, in parts of Galway and even in parts of Mayo which are in the congested area. I would ask the Minister, as regards those farmers who are getting this land outside the congested area and have to pay this rack rent annuity, even to increase the number of years for repayment. I know many who have handed it back to the Land Commission. Others in my own county are about to hand it back. They would dearly love to hold on to it if they saw any future. If the Minister extended the period of repayment, the rent could be reduced.

There is an Article in our Constitution which guarantees equal rights and equal opportunity to all our citizens and which speaks of being resolved to pursue the happiness and prosperity of the nation and of cherishing all the children of the nation equally. Therefore, why should the small farmer from Longford, Cavan and Monaghan have to pay twice the price and the rent for land as the farmer coming from Roscommon, Galway or the counties in the congested areas? I fully agree that there is a problem from Cork to Donegal, especially in Connacht. Indeed, I believe it is not the fault of the people of the west. They have a long and rugged history. Perhaps, in the past, history has militated against them. But, in recent years, there is no denying that the tide seems to be running against them.

Take a farmer from Longford who gets, say, 40 acres of land in Westmeath and has to pay £400 for that land. A neighbour beside him, who comes from the congested area, has to pay only £200 for his 40 acres. It is very hard to explain to those people the justice of the Department of Lands. I know that a case can be made for it but it is very difficult to explain it to them. I think that the Department of Lands, indeed in co-operation with other Departments, will have to move faster perhaps in providing small industries and perhaps in planting more land to supplement the income of those particular people whom I have just mentioned.

I should like to say a word about the mile limit. In my opinion that mile limit should be abolished. The aim and object of the Irish Land Commission should be to give land to people who need it most, who will make the best use of the land in their own interest and in the national interest. The mile limit may have had some relevance in the past when farmers were trying to do their work with the ass and cart and the horse and cart. It is different nowadays. Many of them have tractors and some have cars. In any case, they have up-to-date machinery. I think that limit could be extended to three or four miles. Under the present system, it is a game of luck. It is like winning the sweep as far as some people are concerned. Unless a person in the midlands—in Westmeath, Meath, Kildare or any of those counties—happens to be living within one mile of a farm which is about to be divided he is ineligible. In Westmeath, I have seen it happening: it can be very hard luck. I have seen a young married man with six children who, because he was 100 yards outside the mile limit, could not be given a farm by the Land Commissioners. A bachelor of 60 years of age who was living 100 yards inside the mile limit got the farm. If the aim is to give the land of Ireland to those who will make best use of it, that mile limit rule should be abolished so that those people who would make first-class use of extra land, and have families, would qualify for it. I also believe—it is a suggestion that cannot always be fulfilled—that local people in the majority of cases should be catered for when an estate is being divided and that migration within the counties should be encouraged.

We know that at present farmers' sons and labourers are very far down the list of priorities. I do not want to suggest to the Minister that he should open the sluice gates now. I do not want to see every Tom, Dick and Harry eligible for land and getting it —in present circumstances—from the Irish Land Commission. At the same time, the officers of the Irish Land Commission should have power and authority in certain cases. A farmer's son or a labouring man who has availed of the Farm Apprenticeship Scheme or a young man who, through his own initiative and hard work has bought a tractor or jobbed in cattle and has built up a herd of 15, 20, 30 or 40 cattle should be entitled to a farm. The Department should have a scheme to help him purchase the farm or if not the Department should be able to supply money at a low rate of interest. As I said, however, I do not want to see the sluice gates opened because that would leave far too many people eligible, but at the same time people who have shown this initiative are entitled to consideration.

The Minister referred to game and this is something which could become a very valuable national asset. We should consider the question of landowners securing these game rights. Much could be said about that. Last year the Minister said that there were game councils for all counties but one and that by the following year he hoped to have one for all of the Twenty Six Counties. I think that the Minister said that there are councils now for all of the Twenty Six Counties and that they are active and are receiving grants. They can do valuable work and they can assist tourism in the future. Last year we were told that legislation regarding the conservation of game and wild life was proceeding and could the Minister tell us how far that legislation has proceeded and when will it be introduced?

In the next session.

I am glad to hear that. Another matter with which I should like to deal briefly is the matter of roads which are built by the Land Commission. The Land Commission should do a better job in this regard than they are doing. The majority of county councillors would be prepared to take them over if the Land Commission did a first class job but unfortunately they do not. They are doing an inferior type of job and many of our engineers are afraid to touch the roads. There has been an improvement in the past few years.

We dealt before with the question of land bonds and I do not want to go back over the same ground. In reply to a Parliamentary Question the Minister did state last week that he intended to do something about land bonds. Certainly I think that the operative date should be changed. The present system is unfair and unjust, it leads to delays and hinders and frustrates the acquisition of land and very few people have faith in it. I instanced a case a few months ago of a man who sold his farm for £10,000. That was in December, 1967, and he was paid in September, 1968, and by then the land bonds had fallen to such an extent that when he went to cash them he only got £8,000 and thus lost £2,000. I have a further case now in which the price was agreed in June, 1968. The case involved a small farmer who agreed to facilitate the Land Commission, but if he had held out he could have got a much better price from local farmers. The price agreed upon was £3,200 payable in 7½ per cent land bonds and the Land Commission paid the auctioneer's fees. When the farmer sold them on the 14th August, 1968, they realised only £2,622 18s, involving "Mr. A" in a loss of about £578. The bonds had fallen to £82 10s by early August. Naturally this man is very aggrieved at this enormous loss, but he is only one of many. I have suggested to the Minister that the operative date should be the date on which the land is handed over and not the date on which the agreement to purchase the land is made because a man could sell land on the 1st January, that is the date now operative, say the 1st January, 1968——

It is the date of possession.

Yes, but I want the date changed to the date on which it is finally handed over. If there is a delay in handing over, as has happened in numerous cases, the bonds will have dropped by as much as £10 or £15. As Deputy O'Donovan has said they have dropped by 80 per cent in the last two years. Is the Minister prepared to meet the people in that way? Another hardy annual is that if land could be paid for in cash this would facilitate the creation of a bigger pool of land. On Wednesday 29th October, 1968, I asked a question about the total acreage of land which had been purchased each year since 1930 and so on, and the reply was that in 1964/ 65 it had been 43,000 acres and in the year before that 37,000 acres; in the year after it was 38,000 and for four or five years around that time it was hovering around the 37,000-40,000 mark. For the last few years it has been around 28,000 to 32,000 or 33,000. I should like the Minister's comments on what is being done now to ensure that more land will be acquired in the years ahead.

In regard to forestry, it may be the Cinderella of the Department of Lands but as far as rural Ireland is concerned it is of major importance. Afforestation provides national wealth as well as permanent and worthwhile employment. At one time there were great forests in this country and thousands of acres were devoted to plantations. I believe that we could accrue more wealth and give more employment through afforestation. I am sorry to say that last year the Minister told us that 3,667 people were employed in forestry but the Minister did not quote the figure for this year but he did admit there had been a drop in the number of people employed.

That is a pity because we have thousands of acres of cut-away bog every acre of which could be planted. They would be richly productive under forestry. As it is, the bulk of this land is of little use. We should go straight ahead and take the economic and financial steps necessary to develop all the natural resources of the country as quickly as possible. We could double the output of our land if we utilised the whole of the bog and mountain land not suitable for agriculture for afforestation. All our land not suitable for agriculture should be planted as quickly as possible.

We know that the committee on Irish forestry appointed many years ago claimed at that time that our capacity to grow timber was as good as that of any other country, that our climate and marginal land were suitable. Timber can produce valuable employment. The full productive period for the wood pulp industry can be reached, and is reached here, in about 30 years. The first thinnings for woodpulp actually begin at 20 years and, therefore, 20 years after planting waste land we get a return and we can also give employment which is so necessary. Timber for industries, I think, takes 40 to 45 years to produce.

The Minister spoke about this in his speech in relation to future prospects for industrial development in the timber processing field. He said that H.A. Simons Ltd. of Vancouver, a firm of consultants in pulp and paper, jointly commissioned by the IDA and the Minister for Lands had reported that expansions by the existing mills in the field of chipboard and hardboard production for export markets and newsprint for domestic consumption provide the most promising outlet at this stage for our expanding production of pulp-wood. I am glad the Minister and the Department are taking action in that respect because we all agree that extra employment can be given in our mills, in the woodwork industry and in paper mills. All this could be within our reach, in the use of woodpulp in the manufacture of paper, in the production of celluloid from pulp-wood, in the artificial silk industry which goes hand-in-hand with the textile industry, and in other industries arising from the utilisation of waste products of pulp mills such as ethyl-alcohol which is used in Sweden and Germany.

Another and very desirable advantage relates to drainage and prevention of flooding. Trees retard the run of water and forests act as a great sponge and make a river flow more equitably and prevent wastage of floodwater. Large-scale afforestation in this country could lessen the amount of public money that has to be expended each year on drainage.

We have about 3,600 employed in forestry. In Sweden, 150,000 men, of whom the majority are small farmers and agricultural workers, are employed in the forests in winter and return to farm work in the early spring. Transport of timber from the forests to the saw-mills employs about 30,000 in the summer. Some 50,000 are employed in saw-mills and in joinery factories and in wood pulp factories they employ another 20,000. In all, about 250,000 people are employed in forestry work in Sweden. Others are employed in the manufacture of tar, wood tar, oil and many other valuable products. What has been done there could be done here. Many people claim that with an ambitious programme we could double the number at present employed in forestry.

Our rate of acquiring and planting land seems to be decreasing, which is a pity. We did aim at planting 25,000 acres and in 1961-62 we acquired 31,781 acres. In 1963-64 we acquired 29,000 acres; in 1968-69 we acquired only 14,108 acres or 17,000 acres less than we acquired seven years earlier. I should like to know from the Minister if the pool of land is running out. Those who travel through the country cannot believe that: wherever you go there are mountains and hills, and Bord na Móna seem to have much waste bogland. Is there any consultation at present between Bord na Móna and the Irish Land Commission so that preparations could be made to ensure that when Bord na Móna hand over the bogs, forestry work could begin immediately.

Consultations with Bord na Móna?

Yes, consultations between Bord na Móna and the Forestry Division.

That is for the record: the Deputy said the Land Commission.

Mr. J. Lenehan

There would not be much done if it was left to your people.

When Deputy Blowick was Minister for Lands—I did not want to bring politics into it, nor do I now—he set the target of 25,000 acres to be planted each year and reached it, I think. It may be no harm to point out to the Minister that while we are planting——

Mr. J. Lenehan

He never reached anything.

——14,000 to 20,000 acres, in Japan they are planting at least 500,000 acres every year. In Italy, where they had a great scheme of afforestation, some 16 per cent of their land is at present covered. In Sweden and Finland where there is great forestry wealth they are making an all-out effort and we need to do the same. Even in England they are at present planting 60,000 acres of land. If we are to undertake the progressive programme which we would like to see, those engaged in forestry must wake up. There will have to be more co-operation between the Department of Lands and the Forestry Division, Bord na Móna and others charged with this work because we seem to be falling down in this respect.

I believe the Government and the Department could produce a very ambitious programme which would change the appearance of our unused slopes and valleys. By doing that we would provide employment and financial returns which would help the nation and we would also improve in many ways this country's climate.

About ten years ago Deputy L'Estrange used make exceptional contributions to debates here. I regret to have to say that the contribution I have just heard is about the worst I have ever heard from him.

I disagree with that.

Let me deal now with the Mayomen as Ministers for Lands. Beyond question the best Minister for Lands in this country over the past 30 years was the late Deputy Seán Moylan, because he was against land division. He did not believe in i at all. He put into operation the job of revesting the hundreds of thousands of holdings and allotments that had been left there by previous Ministers.

One of the difficulties about men from County Mayo is that a large number of holdings in Mayo were not anything like economic holdings. The average holding in that county 15 or 20 years ago was something like 14 acres. In the 30s to be a landowner meant that you could eat when other people might not be able to eat, but 14 acres of land still provided a miserable living.

I have a few queries for the Minister on the way he tackled the Estimate. I certainly want to make a complaint at his joining these two Votes together. There is no resemblance whatever between them. It would have been much fairer to the House for the Minister to deal first with lands and then with forestry. In fact, he did that in his statement but it would be much better if he let the House discuss the Lands Vote first and then the Forestry Vote. There is no connection whatever between the two except that they are both in the same area of Government.

The Land Commission have been fidding around with the land of this country—even if we go back to the Land Act of 1923—for 46 years, and they have raked over some of it two or three times. I want to remind the House and the Minister that the Romans divided all the land of Italy in six years. A large part of this Vote is just slush. I am talking about the Vote for the Department of Lands and not for the Forestry Division. That is why I object to the two of them being linked together. There is one item in it which is essential. This is the contribution of £1¼ million to the Land Bonds Fund. The country would be much better off if the rest of it were not there at all.

I want to ask the Minister how does it come about that there is a deficiency of income from untenanted land. Normally this used to be a token sum. Last year it was under a token subhead of £5. This year there is £5,000 in for it. I do not understand how you could have a deficiency of income from untenanted land. I notice that in the Appropriations-in-Aid there is a surplus in the rent and interest account of £29,000, but even that is down by £1,000 compared with last year.

I also want to ask the Minister how it comes about that there should be an increase of ten in the staff of his Department at this stage of their operations. I notice that the purchase branch is down by seven people as I would expect, but the Commissioners and secretariat is up from 163 to 199. Whatever for? What is the purpose of having these extra 36 people? I notice that the Land Commission inspectorate is up by 17. What are they doing? What purpose do they serve?

There is a reduction also of 129 in the collection branch. There are many people who believe that the Land Commission today should be only a collection branch. I notice a job I had something to do with a long time ago is very nearly completed. This is the job of revesting the purchase holdings. I notice, too, that over the past 20 years the number of purchase cases is down to 5,750. I have the report for the year 1956-57. In 1968-69 it went down from 6,750 to 5,750, as the Minister told us.

As regards the allottees, in the year 1966-67, 139 holdings containing 4,900 acres, and 945 allotments containing 14,700 acres were revested under the Land Acts, 1923 to 1965, in tenants and allottees, respectively. In addition, four allotments comprising 27 acres on registered holdings taken over in exchange for default were finally transferred to the allottees. There are a number of these kind of figures through the report that really caused me considerable amusement.

During the year 1966-67, 118 new dwellinghouses and 119 new outhouses were completed. Repairs to seven existing houses were also effected. This report contains a great deal of matter involving millions of pounds, yet there is paragraph after paragraph here and there with the most extraordinary figures. The Land Acts 1923 to 1965 are referred to at page 16, paragraph 26, and it is stated that during the year ended 31st March, 1967, the number of additional holdings vested in the Land Commission under the Acts was six; these included two holdings comprising an area of 23 acres, representing a rental of £10, and a total purchase price of £102, vested under section 9 of the Land Act, 1931; three holdings comprising an area of 180 acres, representing a rental of £66, and a purchase price of £669, vested under section 44 of the Land Act, 1931, as amended by subsequent Land Acts; one holding comprising an area of six acres, representing a rental of £7, and a total purchase price of £69, vested under section 10 of the Land Acts, 1927, as amended by section 38 of the Land Act, 1939.

As a piece of precision writing it would be hard to beat that, but as a genuine contribution to anything it is worth just nothing. It costs a certain amount of money to produce it, to print it and so on. That money might just as well have been thrown into the Liffey. The report is full of those types of oddments. There are four main items in this report. The total expenditure by the Land Commission is £5 million this year. That is gross expenditure this year. As I said, the only worthwhile part of that is the £1¼ which has to be provided for the Land Bonds Fund. There is £1¼ million roughly for staff, and £800,000 for the purchase of land for cash. That was started by Deputy Blowick—one of the Mayomen—with the sum of £20,000 under the 1956 Act, I think. I am not quite precise about it. At that time he put in £20,000. He said there were cases where land was very cheap.

The Minister gave a figure for the average price for land last year as £75 an acre. What are the Land Commission doing at present, buying land at a time when the price of land is sky high? In other words they are adding to the inflated price of land. The other item is the item of over £1 million on the improvement of estates. I notice again that the total amount of employment given in that was comparatively small. Some 410 men were employed on the various improvement works and their wage bill amounted to £239,000. Of course, I appreciate that the materials bought by the Land Commission gave employment also. I do not want to overstate the case but, the only thing to do with the Land Commission is to wind it up as soon as possible.

We had a number of Parliamentary Questions here over the last couple of weeks inquiring about whether a farm of nine acres, another of 22 acres or 23 acres and so on had been offered to the Land Commission. If we are serious about our work, this is just fidding around. I would hope now that the Minister has become Minister for Lands, instead of, as Deputy L'Estrange suggested, doing more and more of this kind of thing, that he would get rid of the whole thing over the next three or four years. Deputy L'Estrange read out some figures about the size of holdings. I looked at these figures on one occasion and I noticed that the effect of the Land Commission in the west in adding to the size of holdings was less than the movement of people themselves off the land from the west, and, of course, instead of that movement declining, if the land is bad and the farms are small, it will increase.

Why can the Land Commission not make up their minds as to what is an economic size of holding? Before the war it was 22 acres and, of course, that was not really an economic size of holding. It might be all right down in County Mayo but in County Meath where you needed two horses to do the ploughing because the land was heavy, it took about half the land to feed them. Then it became 32 or 33 acres and now it is 45 acres. What is the sense of this kind of thing? If you think of the 22 acre holdings obviously they are now either uneconomic or they are sold to somebody else.

They are congested areas.

No. Many of them are in County Meath and County Kildare.

They are still congested areas.

It is a congested holding, if you like.

What else could they be?

People were given them by the Land Commission, and the Minister says they are congested areas?

They have to be.

The holdings are uneconomic.

If you equate the the word "economic" with "congested"——

That is what we call a congested area down in Mayo where you have a lot of uneconomic holdings. Is that what it is? I am not arguing with the Deputy at all.

I appreciate that. I think it is only a question of semantics.

I am only making a comment on what the Deputy said. Uneconomic holdings were created by the Land Commission 20 years ago, and where you have a whole lot of these together you have a congested area.

You certainly have, I quite agree. When land division was on a large scale during the Thirties, the idea the President, Mr. de Valera, had was that the halving of the annuities would pay for the cost of the land division. Of course, it did for many years, because that sum of £1 million on the improvement of estates used to be £250,000, but the £250,000 was worth the £1 million now. Many of the Land Commission bungalows—and I remember well the contracts going through—were built for £300. They are now being built, I understand, for about £1,500.

The whole thing is a hopeless exercise. It does not even give a worthwhile amount of employment. Taking off the £1,250,000 that has to be put into the land bond fund to make up the halved annuities, you are left with something under £4 million. Surely that sum could be used to better effect than providing employment for 1,000 civil servants? The land would find its own level, like water, if it was left to the natural forces of the market. All the Minister is doing is aggravating——

Not the Minister, please.

The Minister is engaging in semantics again.

These are not semantics. This is a serious matter the Deputy is talking about. I hope he is being serious. I believe he is.

I am deadly serious.

I merely said it is not the Minister.

I agree again. The Minister means the Land Commission.

I am not the Land Commission. I am the Minister for Lands.

All right. Let us talk about the Land Commission. The Minister is here in the House to answer for the Land Commission.

I am not here to answer for the Land Commission.

Let the commissioners introduce the Estimate then.

This is the Vote for Lands, "estimate for the amount required in the year ending 31st March, 1970, for the salaries and expenses of the Offices of the Minister for Lands and of the Irish Land Commission."

Two different things.

And the Minister is answering for both.

I do not want to interrupt the Deputy. I shall deal with that later.

It is not of any importance.

Who answers for the Land Commission if the Minister does not?

I shall deal with that when I am replying.

When the late Seán Moylan became Minister for Lands at the end of the war he decided to put an end to land division and he did, in effect, put an end to it. He used up whatever was in the pipeline and subsequent Ministers, being mainly from County Mayo where land is scarce and poor in quality, think that by dividing up land which should be kept in larger farms they are improving the economy of the country.

Having said that much about the Vote for Lands, let me come on to a more pleasant task, that is, the task of talking about forestry. It is a great pity the Land Commission did not get the land project. It was taken into the Department of Agriculture when it should have been in the Department of Lands because there was a tall talker in charge of the Department of Agriculture at the time, the man who thought that when he had coined a beautiful phrase that he had solved the problem, and who took it over from that gentle Mayo man who was in charge of the Department of Lands at the time. The land project was a suitable project for this Department.

It does not appear in the Estimate.

I can suggest surely that it should be here and that we would not have this kind of Estimate if it was here? Forestry and the land project together would have made admirable work for the Department of Lands.

The land project was never under the Department of Lands.

I know it never was, that is what I am saying, that it was taken over by a tall talking individual out of the Department where it should have been, but a fair number of staff were taken out of the Department of Lands who established it. That is some proof of my point. There was no question but that the first two Governments neglected forestry. It was one of the worst errors they ever made. I am, of course, talking about the Government from 1922 to 1932 and the Government from 1932 to 1948.

The total area in the State forests in 1948, to the best of my recollection, was something of the order of 8,000 acres. Mr. Seán MacBride, who was the Minister for External Affairs, brought a programme of 20,000 acres into what was called the long-term programme, the programme that was sent to the Americans in connection with the Marshall Aid money. I suspect he had no authority from the Government to do that but he did it, and it has never been departed from since, although there was one Minister for Lands who did feel the figure of 20,000 acres was rather accepted. We now have this magnificent asset of half a million acres of forestry. There is no point in Deputy L'Estrange talking about forestry in Finland and Sweden where they have enough natural forestry to last them a hundred years. There is no use comparing it to ours. I met some Finnish students a few years ago and when I asked them what they saw in Ireland they said: "Baby forests". Of course, our forests are baby forests compared with the Finnish ones. Some of them are over comparatively small areas but at least we have them and they are a growing asset.

I remember a committee being established about when we should set up a newsprint plant in this country. This seems to have been postponed continuously. I understood at the time that there would be enough thinnings to manufacture newsprint by 1960. It has been taken up by various existing private enterprise firms and there is a serious problem here. We have a monopoly producer of the timber, the State; and we have monopoly purchasers, the private firm. I would like to ask when we will have this newsprint plant. Perhaps, the Minister can convey my question to the Minister concerned. We are paying somewhere in the region of £5 to £6 million a year for newsprint at the moment. I know when the plant is first set up here there will be terrible grouses about how newsprint is deteriorating and all the usual teething troubles will have to be solved, but they will be over in a few years.

In my opinion the newsprint plant should be set up in the same way as Nítrigin Éireann Teoranta in Arklow as a semi-State body. I cannot see any method by which a price can be agreed between a private firm where there are monopoly producers and purchasers. At this stage the production of newsprint is the most promising outlet for our expanding production of woodpulp. I should like to know when the Government are going to establish this newsprint plant because it is obvious to me that the second thinnings of the first worthwhile planting of forests are due. They were started in 1950 and we were told they would be available after 20 years.

If we want to be critical we can say that the results so far have been very disappointing. We have spent nearly £6 million and we have received just under £1 million for sales of timber. Of course, the real crop of timber comes in about 40 years time when, in the case of pine which we have been talking about, they mature.

I should like to know what has happened about the commercial accounts for forestry. Are they still operating on the basis of whatever rate of interest was agreed at the time? I do not suppose the Forestry Division agreed to anything more than four per cent. I remember the argument and the suggestion that was made that it should be 2½ per cent. The Department of Finance was suggesting it should be five per cent. There is no doubt that with a rate of interest of something of that order these accounts will in the end show a reasonable return for the moneys invested in the forests, particularly having regard to the way the value of money has gone up. The result should be a good one if the rate of interest has not been altered in the interval.

It is an extraordinary position to find that we have one Vote which is worthless and another Vote which is of immense value. Of course, this is the reason why the Minister brought them in together. He expected the Vote for Lands to be criticised severely but he realised that most people in this House are in favour of the afforestation programme.

I will conclude by saying that I hope the Minister will follow the pattern set by his able predecessor, the late Deputy Seán Moylan, and stop the land division. As far as I am concerned, I hope he will be able to keep the land available for forestry up to target and keep the annual planting figure up to 20,000 acres a year. It is too late to get the land project back. It was not an agricultural project and it should have been under the control of the Department of Lands.

Mr. J. Lenehan

About 20 years ago both Deputy O'Donovan and I happened to be members of the Fine Gael Party. I am glad that both of us left it. It was the best thing, not only for Deputy O'Donovan, but also for me. It was the first right turn we ever took. I hope that Deputy O'Donovan continues in the way in which he is now going.

The Estimate is one which concerns me because when the present Minister for Justice was made Minister for Lands it was suggested that the general attitude was that he was going to lead the people of the West of Ireland into the promised land, that he was going to take them to Meath and Kildare and give them all the free and soft lands that he could get for them. That, of course, did not happen. It was not my fault but it just did not happen. I am sure that the present Minister will not succeed in getting them all there either. The allegations made against Mayo Deputies who have been Ministers are unfair. They have not been unreasonable. Mayo Deputies who have been Ministers for Lands have been most fair.

It is a coincidence.

Mr. J. Lenehan

It could be a coincidence but they have not brought the people of the west into the promised land or anything like that. I am not going to make a long-playing record but there are a few points that I want to make. One very important matter as far as we in the west are concerned is the question of commonages. A great deal of land is held in common by many people. It is often very difficult to get all the holders to agree with one another. For instance, a brother and sister will not agree with each other.

There is also a lot of rundale in Mayo.

Mr. J. Lenehan

It has gone. We did away with that. I think the Deputy did away with that when he became Minister for Economic Affairs in the last Coalition Government.

I did not, but thanks for the compliment.

Mr. J. Lenehan

There is this land that is held in common, as Deputy O'Donovan knows. He is an expert. I am not. These lands represent a problem. I should like to point out to the Minister that if he decided to take one small farmer from Erris to the midlands today the cost of the whole transaction would be in the nature of £12,000 to £15,000. On the other hand, in the Aughleam Gaeltacht more than 20 tenants got ten to 15 acres each and the total outlay was £12,000. The 20 persons concerned are well fixed up now. This is very important. If the Land Commission officials would come down to earth—some of them are nearer to the moon than to this world —we could solve many of our problems. The Minister cannot deny that it would cost £12,000 to take a person from Erris to the midlands, whereas a transaction involving more than 20 person, each of whom got an addition of ten to 15 acres in the Aughleam Gaeltacht, cost only £12,000.

There is absolute lack of co-operation as far as Land Commission officials are concerned. They seem to imagine that there will be a law case in regard to some matter. That does not arise. The Minister should be able to send officials to help local people who want land that is held in common divided. The people concerned are not millionaires. Neither do they come from the county home. If they had to bring out an engineer at their own cost, that would involve a great deal of money and the question is: who would pay him? The Land Commission have engineers, some of them doing damn all, and I see no good reason why they should not be sent out to give us and the tenants the necessary information. To suggest that they do not come because a holding is vested is the arch joke. I may as well be honest about it, but I think the Land Commission should have been abolished years ago.

If it is put before the Minister that there are ten or 15 tenants who want to divide and partition their lands, the Land Commission should send out capable men to deal with the matter and to help these people. There could be tremendous improvements by this means, more than would be obtained by taking one man to the midlands, which would cost more than improving a whole townland. This matter probably has not been brought to the Minister's notice before. Now that it has been brought to his attention it will be up to him to deal with it.

There are some other funny things that go on. For instance, a man who is not within a mile of a certain holding is not entitled to get land. I suppose there is something to be said for that because if he were more than a mile from the holding it is quite possible that he would let it to somebody else or do something else with it.

There is a tremendous amount of land down in the west which would be quite suitable for afforestation. One thousand years ago there must have been trees growing on that land. They are under the ground now. Would it not be a good idea for the Forestry Division to purchase this land and plant trees on it? The Germans are prepared to take a long-term gamble on this type of land and, if it is a good investment for the foreigner, then it should be an equally good investment for an Irish Government. It is a-matter which should be considered. A great deal of land is lying derelict. It should be purchased by the Land Commission and developed as a forest. I suggest the Minister should send his officials down to have a chat with some of the local people. It is very rarely a Land Commission, or any other official, calls on me but, if officials did call on me, or on others like me, it is amazing the kind of beneficial information they could get. I believe this land could be purchased very reasonably. It is an investment that would be well worth making. It would give a reasonable amount of employment initially and in 20 or 30 years time it would give more employment. I know the trees in Mayo do not grow as fast as they do on the plains of Kildare, but they do grow. They may take a little longer. In the years to come someone will have to establish a factory to deal with woodpulp. Here is an area in which we could produce the raw material for such a factory.

I shall be brief. There are just a few points I should like to bring to the Minister's attention. Deputy Lenehan referred to a problem in his constituency. It is also a problem in my constituency. It is the problem of commonages. Has the Minister and his Department power to divide these commonages between interested parties? In my constituency there are as many as ten or 12, sometimes more, with a common interest in a vast tract of mountain land. In recent years there has been a growing awareness of the value of reclaiming mountain land and improving mountain pasture. Unfortunately, progress can cause a considerable amount of ill-feeling; in some cases it has actually resulted in court proceedings. There may be ten or 12 people interested in a commonage and one or two of these will hold up the division of the commonage. While the commonage is held in joint ownership and some disagree there can be no attempt to reclaim the land or improve the pasture for sheep grazing. If there are compulsory powers to acquire such commonages then these powers should be used. I would be in favour of compulsory acquisition because it would lead to better farming in many cases. It would lead to more economic holdings—a subject in which I am very interested as it concerns quite a number of people in my constituency. I was very interested in what Deputy O'Donovan had to say in relation to the acquisition of land by the Land Commission. We all realise that land acquisition and division is a very complex and vexed question. No doubt the reason for that stems from the fight for the land in this country. At present, we have between 70,000 and 75,000 uneconomic holdings. The time has come for the Minister for Lands or, perhaps, even the Minister for Finance to say how many small farms and small farmers this country can afford.

Many Mayo Deputies have held the office of Minister for Lands. When Deputy S. Flanagan was appointed Minister for Lands I felt that, coming from Mayo, an area which has the problem of land congestion, he should be familiar with all aspects of it. There are a lot of small and uneconomic holdings in Mayo similar to those in parts of the area I represent. The apparently deliberate go-slow policy of the Department of Lands in acquiring land for subdivision is appalling. I see no indication in the Minister's opening statement on the Estimate for his Department of any change in the policy that has been pursued in this respect down through the years.

I suppose that every public representative and certainly every Member of this House has from time to time made representations direct to the Minister for Lands or to his Department or to the district office in connection with holdings in a congested area that are offered for sale. My complaint is that the Land Commission take so long before they become interested in a property—a farm large or small—which is for sale that, before they even reach the stage of inspecting it, it is sold to somebody else. It would, indeed, be well if we had a land acquisition drive. It would be particularly beneficial in congested areas where we could create the greatest possible number of economic holdings. We should acquire the land not by compulsion but through voluntary sale by the vendors to the Land Commission.

The Minister states that section 6 of the Land Act, 1965, provides the basic authority for the scheme of life annuities for elderly, incapacitated or blind persons who voluntarily sell their interest in their land to the Land Commission. He says that this scheme and the scheme for self-migration loans were brought into operation early in 1967. The objective of the life annuity scheme is to facilitate land structure reform by encouraging elderly, incapaciated or blind farmers to retire so that their land will become available for active farming by younger, ablebodied persons. This is, indeed, a very worthwhile scheme and I wish it greater success. The Minister says it is having moderate success.

We now have 22 persons on the life annuity payroll, following the sale of their lands to the Land Commission The Minister tells us that most of these people avail themselves of the very attractive feature of the scheme whereby the vendor may, if he wishes, retain a right of residence for life in his existing dwellinghouse. This is very desirable. However, since early in 1967, when the scheme was introduced, only 22 persons have availed of it. I fear the Land Commission have not sufficiently brought the advantages of the scheme to the notice of people likely to be interested in it, and explained it to them in detail. It is a worthwhile scheme which could help to solve the problem of uneconomic holdings.

The Minister tells us that this scheme, which is entirely voluntary, is designed in the main for elderly people and that progress is necessarily slow. If progress continues to be as slow as it has been we should consider whether we should abandon the scheme altogether. We require a substantial improvement in the numbers availing of it. The Minister admits that, to date, the results are unsatisfactory. A survey should be made in parts of Cork county, in Mayo and in other areas, particularly along the western seaboard, of holdings where families cannot now be sustained although, in other times, families were reared and educated off the same holdings. The Land Commission advisory service should explain the details and merits of this scheme to people on holdings which have no economic future. I am disappointed with the progress so far in this respect.

I agree with portions of the Estimate: if I think anything has merit, I have no hesitation in saying so, no matter what Minister may introduce an Estimate. Likewise, if I think it should be criticised, I shall criticise it.

In page 11 of his brief, the Minister refers to the tourist aspects of game shooting and says it proceeded satisfactorily in the past year. He tells us that a joint committee of the Department of Lands and Bord Fáilte sponsored a number of shoots throughout the country to meet the demands of the out-of-State visitor. This is a project which could be developed to the benefit of the nation. In areas which I have mentioned, where you have congestion or small uneconomic holdings, there is no doubt that the development of tourism can play an important part in increasing the standard of living of the people in those areas. Even though it is not relevant to discuss it I should like in passing to mention the importance of the farm guesthouse holiday scheme. This is something which can also contribute to improving the standard of living of the people if they are made aware of what is involved.

In regard to land acquisition my experience has been that people who have land or farms to sell are dubious about land bonds and it would be easier for the Land Commission if they came to an agreement with the landowners and made a cash down payment. The normal and the human reaction is that if you are selling something you are anxious to get the cash in your hands when the sale has been concluded. Today people are demanding a better standard of living and will not be satisfied with what satisfied their forefathers, and farms which in the past provided a living are now no longer viable units. In areas where there are small farms there is no alternative but to provide the farmers with the acreage of land which will make for a viable holding. While we can introduce emergency measures of unemployment assistance or something of that nature, every farmer and particularly the small farmer, is anxious to have sufficient land. These people have proved themselves to be the most hardworking section of the community and they do not easily accept hand-outs.

The Minister referred to the afforestation drive and to the difficulty of having a reserve of land. It has been my experience that when the Forestry Division go to purchase land they are very niggardly about paying for it. On occasions I made representations to the Minister's predecessors about cases where there was very little difference between the price offered and the price asked, and in all such dealings there is always room for some bargaining, but as far as the Department were concerned they were very slow to reach any compromise. I want to emphasise that, while afforestation is necessary and while there is nothing nicer in a barren countryside than a growing forest, I would hate to see even one perch of arable land being planted and I am afraid that a number of arable acres have been planted. The Forestry Division may purchase a farm on which there may be six or seven acres of arable land which would contribute to making an adjoining holding an economic holding and I have seen such arable land being planted. The Minister should ensure that under no circumstances should even one acre of arable land be planted because we have ample quantities of waste or barren land and mountain land to plant if we so desire.

I can never understand why when the Land Commission or the Forestry Division buy a farm they hold it for three, four or maybe five years before they divide it. What is the purpose of buying a farm and then letting it out at conacre or for grazing or to some speculator or cattle dealer? Why not go ahead with its division as soon as it is acquired? I do not see much liaison between the Forestry Division and the Land Commission. I have one particular case in mind where the Forestry Division 2½ years ago bought a farm of which about 50 per cent was arable land and it has not yet been transferred to the Land Commission. The people who expected to get the land are still waiting for it because it has not been handed over

The Minister also referred to the increased expenditure in his Department and I want to bring to his attention one matter which is of interest to Deputies, particularly southern Deputies, the fact that transport is not provided for forestry workers. I am sure the Minister understands the position clearly. In the winter months you have forestry workers leaving their homes at 6 or 7 o'clock in the morning in all weathers and perhaps going by bicycle to the top of some barren mountain. Where possible they should be paid a travelling allowance or provided with some form of transport. It is very necessary and it is something about which every forestry worker feels aggrieved. It is certainly necessary in this day and age. It is not right that forestry workers should be asked to endure such hardship on their way to and from work. The Minister should bear that in mind.

I live near the town of Macroom. The area all around that town is planted. I do not know the acreage, but planting had continued there each year. Vast acreages of afforestation are now mature. There is great unemployment in this area which is one from which people have emigrated. Some of these people are anxious to return. The area has not been developed industrially in the past few years as other areas have been. There is mature timber in an area around the town of Macroom and within a radius of 20 to 30 miles of it. This timber is being drawn at great expense and cost to two different factories. One of the factories is at Scariff, a distance of 50 miles, and the other is in Waterford which is almost the same distance away. This is ludicrous. The local people, and particularly the development association in the area, have come to Dublin several times requesting the Minister for Industry and Commerce to site a woodpulp factory in the area. This may not be relevant but it is only a passing reference. Experts on afforestation and on the raw materials necessary for a woodpulp factory have stated that there is an unlimited supply of raw material in the area. The Forestry Division have spent a year or more preparing an estimate of the amount of mature timber in the area. So far as I know, this estimate is not available to date. At the same time, there is the ridiculous situation whereby mature timber is drawn from the area at great cost. If a factory was sited in the area, which requires it from the employment point of view, it would be a great improvement. I would ask the Minister to see whether there is anything he can do. Any help he can give would be very welcome.

The Minister in his Estimate also referred to the migrants who were given land in other counties and the type of house provided for them. He states that the farmyards are equipped in a modern way and that the houses are up to average standard or at least reasonably good. I disagree with the Minister here. So far as these houses and farmyards are concerned, one would know from passing along a road that a particular house was a migrant's house and that the land was given by the Land Commission. The layout is very skimpy. The farmyards particularly are skimpy. I should like the Minister to do something about this

With regard to roads, there are a few cases where farmers are living in a roadway and the roadway is also used by the Department of Lands because they have a plantation in the area and right of access through this road to their property. From time to time we have made representations to the Minister and to the Department in connection with paying a contribution towards the upkeep of such roads where the Department of Lands are using roads for their own benefit in order to remove timber and for planting trees the great problem is that farmers have no redress for damage done to the roads. I have at least three or four such cases in my area and I would urge on the Minister that the Department should pay a contribution towards the upkeep of such roads.

The Minister has referred to places like Gougane Barra where there are State forests. I live nearer to this forest than anybody else in this House. It has become the greatest tourist attraction in the south. It is a great tourist amenity and it could be developed further. Many people travel to see this plantation. It is a very worthwhile project, which indeed could be copied in other areas.

I appeal to the Minister to do something with regard to the plantation of land. The Minister could see vast acreages of barren mountain if he were driven through parts of this country. This land should be acquired for forestry purposes. It is very necessary for the provision of employment. There are many places in my area where land is held by the Department for years before planting commences. We all agree that planting is not an easy job. Roads, and perhaps bridges, must be constructed. Fencing must be laid out. Quite a lot of work is involved. But there is great delay at present which is not quite necessary. I would appeal to the Minister to look at this situation which has annoyed people in an area where there is great unemployment. It has annoyed people looking for forestry work that land is available which could be planted if arrangements were made to do so, but no arrangements for planting have been made.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
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