andDr. FitzGerald asked the Minister for Education the percentage increase in numbers on the roll of Mountpelier school, County Limerick (i) between the two quarters ended September 1963 and the two quarters ended September 1969 and (ii) between the two quarters ended September 1965 and the two quarters ended September 1969; and what proportion of two-teacher national schools in the country secured percentage increases of these or greater magnitudes within these two periods of six and four years respectively.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers (Resumed). - County Limerick School.
114.
The answer to (i) of the Deputies question is 31.4 per cent; the answer to (ii) is 30.1 per cent.
As there are over 2,000 two-teacher national schools the amount of official time and effort which would be entailed in the compilation of the information required to answer the last part of this question would not only be inordinate but would be entirely unwarranted.
On a point of order. Is it in order for a Deputy to submit questions for answer in the names of other Deputies without the consent and signature of those Deputies because, if we are correctly informed, one of the Deputies whose name has been appended to these questions is not in agreement with them? And it is not Deputy FitzGerald.
The Chair has no evidence to substantiate in any way what the Deputy alleges.
Before we proceed with this debate the Deputy on the Government side should withdraw any imputation of that nature.
So far as I am concerned I had the questions tabled under my name and with my full consent following consultation between myself and Deputy FitzGerald. I stand over every question tabled here today.
As I have already pointed out, the Chair has no evidence——
I think then the imputation should be withdrawn.
I agreed to have my name appended to the questions raised.
I am in the same position and, all three Deputies having said this, the imputation should be withdrawn. No? There is courtesy for you.
115.
andDr. FitzGerald asked the Minister for Education in what circumstances a national school which has achieved an average of 80 pupils in two successive quarters can lose its entitlement; and whether such a school which maintains 70 or more pupils on the roll can be deprived of this entitlement by a failure on the part of the Department to enlarge a two-room school to provide a third room.
The figure of 70 relates only to the retention of a third teacher on the staff of a school. Where a third teacher has not been appointed no question of his retention arises.
116.
andDr. FitzGerald asked the Minister for Education under what rule relating to national schools an official of his Department has given an assurance that Bridgetown national school can remain a three-teacher school even if the number of pupils on the roll falls as low as 65.
Rule 98 (5) (a) of the Rules for National Schools allows a principal and two assistant teachers to be retained on the staff of an amalgamated school on an average annual enrolment of 65.
Is the Minister aware that the people of the Bridgetown area will be very pleased to hear that they are virtually guaranteed a viable three-teacher school?
That is more than can be said for the people of Mountpelier where they have a no-teacher school now through the efforts of certain people on the other side.
117.
andDr. FitzGerald asked the Minister for Education (i) how many children were on the roll of Mountpelier school, County Limerick, when it was closed; (ii) how many of these children were resident in Clare, Limerick and Tipperary respectively and (iii) the average number of children formerly attending Mountpelier school who have attended Bridgetown and Castleconnell schools respectively during the past two weeks.
Of the 83 pupils returned as being on the rolls of the school on 30th September, 1969 one should not have been enrolled and four others were temporary enrolments. Three of these four have now left the area.
The remaining 79 were made up of 37 from County Limerick, 13 from County Tipperary and 29 from County Clare.
Twenty-seven of the former Mountpelier pupils are now attending Castleconnell national school and three are attending Bridgetown national school.
Is the Minister aware that a very big percentage of the pupils who will be attending Bridgetown school from the O'Brien's Bridge area have already purchased or taken up their tickets for this free transport and our information is——
How could they purchase tickets for free transport?
Excuse me. Our information is that they have already got their tickets. They have applied for and got tickets.
On a point of order, may I ask the Minister what is the relevance of this question?
(Interruptions.)
What is the relevance of any question?
A Deputy
It does not refer to school transport.
It relates to the children attending the Bridgetown School. I want to ask the Minister is he aware that a considerable number of these children have applied for and got tickets to travel on the bus to Bridgetown and would already be travelling were it not for the continuing——
This would seem to be a different question. Question No. 118.
Mr. Smith
Fine Gael are taking over the managerial functions in the area.
There speaks the clericalist Party.
Question No. 118.
118.
andDr. FitzGerald asked the Minister for Education if he will state the number of pupils on the rolls of Bridgetown and Mountpelier schools, County Limerick, in each of the fourteen quarters ended September, 1969.
With your permission, a Cheann Comhairle, I propose to circulate with the Official Report a tabular statement giving the information sought by the Deputies.
Following is the statement:—
|
Quarter ended |
Bridgetown N.S. Average enrolment |
Mountpelier N.S. Average enrolment |
|
30/6/1966 |
69.6 |
76.3 |
|
30/9/1966 |
61.5 |
79.1 |
|
31/12/1966 |
65.0 |
79.5 |
|
31/3/1967 |
67.9 |
79.2 |
|
30/6/1967 |
70.7 |
77.4 |
|
30/9/1967 |
65.5 |
79.3 |
|
31/12/1967 |
64.5 |
80.9 |
|
31/3/1968 |
65.0 |
80.7 |
|
30/6/1968 |
68.6 |
82.6 |
|
30/9/1968 |
65.0 |
79.1 |
|
31/12/1968 |
65.0 |
77.0 |
|
31/3/1969 |
61.0 |
77.0 |
|
30/6/1969 |
64.0 |
85.5 |
|
30/9/1969 |
61.0 |
82.8* |
*In connection with this figure see reply to Question No. 117.
Arising out of the Minister's reply——
He did not reply.
The Chair wishes to inform the Deputy that the Minister proposes to circulate the reply with the Official Report.
Mr. Smith
He can still ask a supplementary.
On a point of order, after having tabled 18 questions and asked 53 supplementaries on this subject, is it possible that the Deputies across the way are not yet aware that the Bridgetown School is in County Clare and not in County Limerick?
Question No. 119.
May I make a personal statement on this point? I have here the originals of the questions I submitted to the office and there is no reference to County Limerick in any of these questions. County Limerick has been inserted into Questions Nos. 118, 124 and 128. It was not in the original. If Deputies doubt this they can see it for themselves. They can come across and get it.
Is the Deputy challenging the Chair?
It is there for Deputies. Come across and get it.
(Interruptions.)
Would Deputies allow the Minister to answer Questions?
Hear, hear. We on this side of the House want to hear the answers.
119.
andDr. FitzGerald asked the Minister for Education how many schools with 80 or more pupils on the rolls have been closed in the past three years; how many of these cases were nearby boys and girls' schools being amalgamated; and in how many of the remaining cases the amalgamation was carried through against the wishes of a majority of the parents.
In the period to 30th June, 1969, 22 schools with three or more teachers were closed. Of this number 15 were adjoining boys' and girls' schools. In regard to the remainder some opposition was voiced in one case.
120.
andDr. FitzGerald asked the Minister for Education in how many cases of school closures in the past three years the larger of two schools has been closed and its pupils transferred to a smaller school; and how many of the schools so closed were four-teacher schools, three-teacher schools and twoteacher schools.
As a total of 614 schools have been closed up to 30th June, 1969, the amount of official time and effort which would be involved in endeavouring to compile the information sought by the Deputies would not be warranted.
121.
andDr. FitzGerald asked the Minister for Education what information he has as to the number of children of three years of age and under who are resident in the catchment area of Mountpelier national school, County Limerick; whether the information at his disposal is based on a survey by a teacher not fully familiar with the area; whether the teacher concerned carried out the survey by asking the children in the school to obtain this information on his behalf; and whether he is aware that this survey failed to disclose the existence of 12 children of three and under within the area.
The official information available on this matter relates to children born within the area who have not yet attended school. There were 31 such children. I am satisfied that there is no basis for the figure of 43 given by the Deputies.
When the Minister refers to "children born within the area," does that mean that a child born in a nursing home in Limerick is not counted for this purpose?
No it does not.
What does it mean?
It means all the children who are eligible to go to the school from the particular area of that school.
The Minister said "children born within the area." May I ask the Minister what area?
That is a very clever supplementary.
It is a very clever answer. What area?
What county are we talking about?
The normal area of the Mountpelier school.
Is Limerick in the normal catchment area?
(Interruptions.)
The Minister has no answer. The Minister has misled the House on this point. Is the Minister aware of the survey carried out by the teachers in the school?
Question No. 122.
The Minister is aware that the official information he has is that there are 31 children who would have been eligible to attend Mountpelier School if the school had been kept open.
If the names of the 43 children are submitted, will he check and see if they are correct?
What I can tell the Deputy is that, when my inspector went to a meeting in the Mountpelier school, he was challenged by two prominent members of the committee as to whether or not their children's names were on the list he had got and, immediately, he was able to name all of their children whether they were at school or not.
Would the Minister now answer the question instead of evading it? If I give him the names of the 43 children will he examine them and see whether I am correct, or will he stand over the wrong information given to him by his inspector?
I was present on that night and I can verify everything the Minister has said, and so can Deputy O'Donnell.
(Interruptions.)
I want to ask the Minister if in the event of our submitting the names of the 43 children —because I stand over the figure 43— he will undertake to re-examine the situation?
The Minister accepts the official figure which was given to him, and he has made his decision on the basis of providing the best possible educational facilities for the whole area.
Deputy FitzGerald and Deputy O'Donnell have protested in good faith to the Minister that they are willing to submit the names of the 43 children concerned, whom they allege are directly concerned. I submit, with respect, that without escalating this emotional aspect any further he should at least in all objectivity accept the information they would make available and examine it.
Mr. Smith
Who can stop them?
I want to point out clearly that when I made the final decision in relation to the closing of this school I made it objectively——
On wrong information.
——unemotionally and on the proper information, which I have gone to the trouble of having verified twice since then. I am satisfied that the decision I made was the proper decision and, for the Deputy to come along at this late stage and talk about the names of 43 children——
As the veracity of the information given to the Minister has been challenged openly, as it is being challenged by Deputy FitzGerald and Deputy O'Donnell, the Minister surely has a public responsibility to accept that not only should he take into account the official information available to him by his inspectors but also the information made available by responsible public representatives in this House. I find it inconceivable that the Minister will not concede this point.
Question No. 122.
May I have a reply to my question?
The whole purpose of these questions week after week is an attempt by certain people to encourage the parents who have not yet sent their children to Castleconnell or to Bridgetown to keep those children at home. I am very perturbed at the fact that there are children in that area now who are not receiving education——
Because the Minister deprived them of it.
——solely, I might say, because of the fact, that certain Deputies, to salve their wounded pride, are putting down questions week after week which have no relevance to education and telling the local people: "Hold on till next Thursday. We have more questions down. We will finally wear the Minister down." As I said before, I made my decision on this objectively and unemotionally and I made it in the best interests of the children——
On wrong information.
I have provided the best possible educational facilities for the children of that area and I stand over my decision.
Question No. 122.
May I have a reply to my question?
The Deputy had the reply.
122.
andDr. FitzGerald asked the Minister for Education whether he is aware that the actual number of children aged three and under in the Mountpelier, County Limerick, catchment area last summer was 43; and whether he considers that this number of children offers a good prospect of a flow of children to this school sufficient to justify its retention as a three-teacher school at least during the next decade.
I would refer the Deputies to my reply to Question No. 121 which shows that according to the official information there were only 31 children of under school-going age in the area. Accordingly, the second part of the Deputies' question does not arise.
123.
andDr. FitzGerald asked the Minister for Education whether he is aware of housebuilding plans for the Mountpelier area. County Limerick, which are likely to expand its population, and in particular the number of school-going children, during the next 20 years.
My information is that there are no such plans.
124.
andDr. FitzGerald asked the Minister for Education if he will state why in view of his statement in reply to Question No. 57 on Thursday, 6th November, that the additional classroom in Bridgetown school, County Limerick, is not yet available and will not be available for a matter of weeks, he felt it necessary, so as to give all the children of the area the benefit of improved educational facilities from the earliest possible date, to move children from Mountpelier to Bridgetown at the beginning of October.
I understand that the prefabricated classroom at Bridgetown National School is at present being erected and that the work will be completed within a week.
The question did not relate to that at all. The Minister has not read it; it says:
"...in view of his statement in reply to Question No. 57 on Thursday, 6th November, that the additional classroom in Bridgetown is not yet available and will not be available for a matter of weeks, he felt it necessary, so as to give all the children of the area the benefit of improved educational facilities from the earliest possible date, to move children from Mountpeiler to Bridgetown at the beginning of October."
I made available alternative accommodation for these children. I said in my reply previously that I made alternative accommodation available.
It is not available.
The Deputy criticised it, of course; the fact is, nevertheless, that I made it available and that I was providing the best possible education for these children at the earliest possible date, this was, from 1st October.
What the Minister said was that he was moving them from 1st October to give them the benefit of improved educational facilities at the earliest possible date. Those improved facilities were a discused, condemned dance hall and creamery. The really improved facilities are not yet available.
If I might refer to the "best educational facilities."
A discused creamery and dance hall.
I made available educational facilities in Bridgetown where the children would have three teachers teaching them and in Castleconnell where they would have six teachers teaching them instead of two.
Has Deputy FitzGerald made any effort whatsoever to prove to the Minister that the facilities he is now making available are not more advantageous to the children than the previous facilities? Has he made those efforts as shadow Minister for Education?
I went and inspected the facilities the Minister has made available. They are a condemned dance hall and creamery.
Mr. Smith
Is it a shadow like the Deputy we are to depend on?
I have asked Deputy FitzGerald to consult with the parents of the 30 children who have accepted amalgamation. Has he done this? This is surely the acid test.
(Interruptions.)
Deputies ought to have some respect for the Chair. The Chair is trying to conduct the business of the House to the advantage of the Deputies who have questions down, and he is calling on the Minister to answer the next question.
125.
andDr. FitzGerald asked the Minister for Education if he will state with reference to his reply to Question No. 59 on Thursday, 6th November, how many of the children in each class at Castleconnell school, County Limerick, as listed by him are children transferred from Mountpelier school; whether these figures include all children transferred or only those actually attending; and if the former, if he will state the average actual attendance of Mountpelier children allocated to each class.
The following are the figures of the enrolment of the Mountpelier children in each of the classes at Castleconnell National School:
|
Infants |
6 |
|
1st Standard |
5 |
|
2nd ,, |
3 |
|
3rd ,, |
4 |
|
4th ,, |
1 |
|
5th ,, |
4 |
|
6th ,, |
4 |
The Minister does not seem to be able to read the questions today. The question says:
Whether these figures include all children transferred or only those actually attending; and if the former he will state the average actual attendance of Mountpelier children allocated to each class.
I have said there were 27 children going to Castleconnell. I have given a list to the Deputy here which totals 27. Therefore, it is obvious I am referring only to the children who have gone to Castleconnell.
I thank the Minister for making that clear.
126.
andDr. FitzGerald asked the Minister for Education whether he has sought legal advice on the constitutionality of a decision by him to refuse to supply free transport from an area to a school to which the majority of parents in the area wish to send their children, and to supply free transport instead to a different school; and, if so, what advice he received.
Legal advice was obtained some years ago on a kindred issue. This advice indicated that there was no need to obtain further legal advice in this particular case.
Would the Minister say what the kindred issue was?
I have not got that information.
I should like to know just how kindred it was.
127.
andDr. FitzGerald asked the Minister for Education under what Act he has authority to draw up national school rules providing for the grant of aid to a national school only where he is satisfied that it is required as a national school; what objective criteria determine his decisions in such matters; and where these criteria can be found.
The powers and duties which were conferred or imposed by law on the Commissioners of National Education were transferred to the National Education Commissioners by the National Education Commissioners Order, 1923.
By the National Education Commissioners (Transfer of Functions) Order, 1935, all jurisdictions, powers, duties and functions of the National Education Commissioners were transferred to the Minister. This included the power to make rules. In the operation of the particular rules referred to by the Deputies every case is considered on its merits.
The Minister seems to have difficulty with the last few words of the questions. This question asks:
what objective criteria determine his decisions in such matters; and where these criteria can be found.
I decide each case on its merits.
There are no objective criteria; that is what I thought.
I am a very objective Minister.
128.
andDr. FitzGerald asked the Minister for Education whether he had consultations with (i) the school managers of Mountpelier and Bridgetown schools, County Limerick, (ii) the principal teachers of these schools and (iii) any other persons other than officials of his Department before deciding to close Mountpelier school; and, if so, what representations were made to him by those whom he consulted.
I had before me details of the consultations which officers of my Department had with all the interested parties.
The Minister indicated very smartly to us that he had available to him details of the consultations. Could I now ask him if he would list those consultations that took place and the parties concerned. I am perturbed that the Minister should arrive at these decisions giving no indication as to whether he consulted with the parents, teachers, school managers and local public representatives, or whether these decisions were arrived at by the inspectors and himself.
I can assure the Deputy that I consulted all the relevant people in relation to this matter and that I made my decision, as I explained to him, after very long and deep consideration.
Deputy Herbert was anxious to know whom I consulted. Is he anxious now to know whom the Minister consulted or does he think it is only the shadow Minister who should say whom he consulted and not the Minister? When the Minister says he consulted all relevant interests, did he consult the parents?
(Interruptions.)
129.
andDr. FitzGerald asked the Minister for Education if he will give details of the very bad condition of Mountpelier national school, County Limerick, as referred to him in a reply of Thursday, 6th November; and in particular whether defects in the school required its total replacement or could be remedied by the provision of water from a nearby supply and the building of modern lavatories.
This school was erected in 1898. The official reports on it indicate that it is in poor condition. It contains two classrooms, one of which is too small for class purposes. The sanitary accommodation is very bad. The defects could not be remedied merely by installing modern lavatories.
130.
andDr. FitzGerald asked the Minister for Education in what way the site of Mountpelier national school, County Limerick, is very bad, as stated by him in a reply of Thursday, 6th November, in view of its location in the village, with adequate land nearby for expansion, and a water supply near at hand.
The site of the school has been reported on as being too small for the number of children attending. Furthermore it gets into a very bad condition during inclement weather.
131.
andDr. FitzGerald asked the Minister for Education if arising out of his reply of Thursday, 6th November, he will state whether he will assure parents of children in the parish of Newport that their right to send their children to any particular school cannot be affected by any decision they may take to withhold their children from a particular school at this time.
No need for such assurance arises. May I add that I would appeal very strongly again to the parents of the children in Mountpelier who have not yet sent their children to school to do so immediately, as the only ones who are losing out on this are the children.
I would ask you, Sir, to ask the Minister for Education to withdraw the statement he has made to this House that the Deputies on this side of the House have put down questions week after week for their own personal and worldly benefit. We represent the people of the different communities, and if any Deputy on the Minister's side of the House refused to work for these people it is not our fault.
(Interruptions.)
In view of the unsatisfactory replies of the Minister, I give notice that I wish to raise this matter on the Adjournment.
It is too late today. The Deputy can give it on the next sitting day.