Vol. 242 No. 8
I move:
That in view of the present housing crisis where thousands of families cannot anticipate being housed for many years, Dáil Éireann calls on the Government to declare a national housing emergency with the objective of directing the necessary men, money and materials to the building of houses in order that the fundamental right to normal family life can be assured for all our citizens.
I hope the Deputy will be back to second this.
I move this motion on behalf of the Labour Party because we feel that the Fianna Fáil Government have paid little or no attention to the housing needs of our people. In fact, I can say, without fear of contradiction, that the housing record of the Government is the worst in Europe. The Minister has attempted by devious means to deprive us of the necessary information so that we can assess the national housing needs.
Recently I asked the Minister if he would spell out in regard to Dublin city alone the number of people on the housing list, and if he would state the number of families with one child, two children, three children, four children and more on the housing list. I asked that question last week and the Minister tried to hoodwink me. He said that the latest figures available to him were given "in reply to a question by the Deputy on 19th February, 1969". I want to know who does the Minister think he is fooling when he gives that reply in the middle of November? This is the Minister in charge of housing and he says this is the only information he can supply to the Deputy. He can play around with all sorts of devious methods. He can say that is not the function of his Department but the function of Dublin Corporation. Let us not be hoodwinked by him any longer.
We know he dissolved Dublin Corporation and appointed a commissioner. We know that the commissioner takes orders from the Minister and is fully responsible to him, and must make all this information available to him. I now suggest that the Minister refused to give this information because he realises we have a housing crisis on our hands and does not want that fact to be known to the public. Deputies of the Minister's own party in Dublin city are inundated with requests for housing, from people coming to them with their problems. Husbands and wives are separated through no fault of their own. I could go into so many details.
I have actually written to the Arch-bishop of Dublin explaining the situation to him in which we have mixed adult families living in one room. I brought this to the attention of the Archbishop of Dublin because of the fact that on moral grounds alone it should be forbidden. The Archbishop's secretary replied to me stating that he has often tried to bring this fact to the attention of Dublin Corporation and will continue to do so.
It has been said that there is no housing crisis but I maintain that there is a housing crisis, and a very, very serious crisis. It is a damning indictment of the Government that they permit money to be spent on office blocks and luxury dwellings while people are in real need of housing. I heard a question asked today about squatting in Dublin. I do not condone squatting; people jumping the queue like that could create chaos and anarchy, However, one man said to me: "The first law is for me to provide a roof for my wife and children. I will not listen to you or to anyone when I find myself homeless. I am not going to walk the streets with three children, when Dublin Corporation are unable to house me." I do not judge what he felt was right. I cannot do so. I am saying we must divert money from office blocks and direct this money, men and materials, into a crash housing programme.
I maintain there are 10,000 families on our Dublin Corporation housing list. This is the priority waiting list and excludes couples with no families who are not even considered for inclusion on the waiting list of Dublin Corporation. Not only will the Minister not help these people but he penalises them when they must become sub-tenants in Dublin Corporation houses. A year or two ago he imposed an extra penalty on the tenants of these houses for having these people as sub-tenants, and his excuse is: "We do not want to make slums of the Dublin Corporation houses." This was a farce. People are not living in over-crowded conditions because they want to. Everyone knows that in-laws cannot agree and no girl will move into the house of her mother-in-law of her own volition. She wants a place of her own where she can rear her family. This is being denied to her at the present time.
When she cannot be considered by Dublin Corporation she tries to find the deposit for a house. I looked into this question and I found that you need £1,000 deposit before you can get a house in or around Dublin city. The normal wage is £13 to £15 a week. How could a person save £1,000 deposit for a house from that? £1,000 deposit is being asked because this same Minister for Local Government has allowed speculation to occur in land and this has been responsible for the rise in the cost of houses. Not only can people not raise the deposit but their incomes will not suffice to permit them to obtain a loan from building societies.
I had a letter yesterday from a man who tried to obtain a loan from Dublin Corporation for the purchase of a house. He said it seemed as if he was looking for charity from all the difficulties and obstacles that were put in his way. No building society will accept anyone for a loan unless he has £25 to £30 a week. Most people cannot provide evidence of having £25 to £30 a week, and in any case the exorbitant rate of interest would make it impossible for them to make the repayments on a house.
Dublin Corporation had a draw recently for 500 purchase houses. They had thousands of applicants, people who thought they might be lucky enough in this draw to buy their own house. They were told, and I read this myself, that the deposit would be £175 to £200. When the draw takes place we find that the initial deposit is to be £495 for a semi-detached house and the interest rate is to be very much higher. This makes it absolutely impossible, because, as I worked it out, the repayments on this house, including rates and ground rent, would be from £8 to £9 a week. A person with £15 a week could not pay half his earnings in the form of repayments for his house. It shows how anxious these people are to buy their own houses, but they are deprived of this means to do so. They must depend on Dublin Corporation, and they are getting no encouragement. There is nothing to replace the Ballymun scheme, the one scheme that did help by providing 3,000 flats. The only big housing project in Dublin city at the moment is at Emmet Road, Inchicore, and this will provide 300 flats.
I am challenging the Minister to say exactly how soon the present housing list will be cleared. Let us not talk about grandiose schemes that never seem to come to fruition. Let us talk about a major crash programme that will ensure that people are housed within the next six to 12 months. I read quite recently that our public housing programme is the worst of any country in Europe, so the Minister cannot say that the local authorities are doing this or doing that. The Fianna Fáil Government's record in housing is deplorable. The Fianna Fáil Government do not want the people housed. They are permitting the money to be directed into office blocks.
Cut out the nonsense.
I am talking sense about this and the Deputy knows it, because he is inundated with requests for housing.
The Deputy does not know what he is talking about.
No, I do not know what I am talking about. I am talking about a housing crisis and the Government are not prepared to admit that one exists.
I agree with what Deputy Dr. O'Connell said, that he does not know what he is talking about.
The sooner the Minister realises that the people will not tolerate this situation any longer the better, allowing money to be diverted into office blocks and luxury buildings while people are homeless. Years ago there were tenement houses with rooms to spare for these people. Even these are not available today and people are expected to pay £7 a week for furnished flats with no fixity of tenure and no rent control. When my colleague, the late Deputy Seán Dunne, asked the Minister to consider some form of rent control, he laughed at the idea and said no, he would not. Sometimes people cannot remain in a furnished room because once a baby is born they get notice of eviction. I am only explaining what is happening in Dublin city, but this exists also in other towns throughout the country, and the Minister knows this.
Are we going to allow this situation to continue? Are we going to allow land speculation? Are we going to create a situation in which we shall have more and more emigration, because this is the only answer to these people's problems? I talk about them as the homeless people, because they are constantly moving from one inlaw's place to another. They have no opportunity of buying their own house and they get no consideration from Dublin Corporation. When I asked Dublin Corporation would they supply copies of a booklet explaining the scheme of letting priorities I was told, first of all, that this little booklet was available in every public library in Dublin for the benefit and information of people. When I phoned every public library I found that none of them had heard of it. I was finally told that it was too costly to provide this and when I questioned further I was told if the book was made available to the people they would come down demanding their rights.
I have asked the Minister for Local Government to appoint an information officer to provide regular information on the housing situation in Dublin, but it has been put on the long finger, and no information is available. We have no direct access to Dublin Corporation which provides the housing. There are no proper details about what the housing plans are and how soon the present housing list will be completed because the Minister has appointed a commissioner, responsible to him alone, with no responsibility to the public or to this House.
I am asking the Minister to declare a housing emergency and to nationalise land in order that we may have serviced land available just outside the city. There are a lot of derelict sites around the city and I do not know what is going to happen to them. We see houses being demolished—we were very late in bringing in an amendment to prevent the unnecessary demolition of houses—and office blocks being built in their place.
I would ask the Minister seriously to consider some form of subsidisation to enable people to buy a house by providing loans at a low rate of interest. I would ask the Minister for flats to be provided in the centre of the city, and to stop the building of office blocks until our housing problem has been solved. I do not think that is too much to ask. The Minister for Labour spoke recently about our emigrants coming home but I would ask, "How could they possibly do this if we cannot house the people who are at present in the country?"
I am sure my colleagues in the Labour Party, who come from the rural areas, will have a few words to say about the situation which exists around the country, I am speaking for Dublin alone. I see it twice weekly, I hear the problems and I feel frustrated that nothing can be done. When I am asked if there is any hope I have to tell these people that they have a better chance of winning the sweep twice than they have of getting a Dublin Corporation house at the present time. That is not a nice thing to have to say to people who find themselves homeless. I have tried to think of how they could raise the deposit or obtain a loan but it is impossible with their incomes. We cannot go on telling people that they cannot get a house or a flat in their own country. When they say, "We will have to emigrate" I have to say, "Well, there is nothing else for you to do because there is nothing we can do for you."
If the Minister is sincere and anxious to do something about the housing situation he should declare a housing emergency and divert the money being spent on new office blocks into new houses. He should stand up and say, "We will tackle this problem and have it cleared up within one year" so that the people on the present Dublin Corporation list can be assured that something will be done for them and will have some hope that they will get a house in the near future.
I wish to be recorded as seconding the motion.
When discussing the housing problems of the country one would think Deputies would make themselves aware of the facts. A lot of unnecessary suffering has been caused to people in need of proper housing by people inside and outside this House play-acting, and it makes no contribution at all towards a housing solution. The last speaker showed a total ignorance of the facts. On this motion the Labour Party are seeking the direction of labour and this is a new departure on their part. This has always gone on, to my mind, in totalitarian countries or in democratic countries during wartime, but here we have the Labour Party wanting to direct labour, wanting to tell men where they will work and what they will work at. I wonder what the reactions of the trade unions will be when they see this. I am speaking as a city Deputy and to suggest that a Dublin building worker, who is doing a very fine job indeed in helping to ease the situation, could be told where he is going to work means that people in here are playing politics.
Deputy O'Connell referred to the fact that people have said they would have to emigrate if they did not have houses. Our main problem today is not the people who are emigrating but the people who are coming back in great numbers because of the improvements in the economy. Many of these people emigrated as far back as 1956 during a time when Dublin had no housing problem at all. Dublin Corporation had 1,500 vacant dwellings that year because the building workers had emigrated as there was no employment for them. That may be the Labour Party or the Fine Gael Party solution to a housing problem——
It was 1959.
It was 1956 and 1957 when the Corporation was bankrupt.
I do not want to dwell too much on the last Government because if the wages of sin is death the wages of a coalition Government is a big housing shortage. They made such a terrible blunder in office that they drove the building workers out of the country, as Deputy Ryan knows. The rot set in in 1956; our people started to move out and when the Fianna Fáil Government came back in 1957 they had to take measures to put the economy back on an even keel in an effort to keep our workers here and bring others back from across the channel. The year 1959 was not the best for housing, but it took more than two years to repair the almost irreparable damage which Fine Gael and Labour had done to the country. I have since heard Fine Gael Deputies boast that when they left office we had too many houses but we have had to correct them on that point and remind them that they had too few people, because that was the case. It has been said before by wiser men than me that a growing city will always have a housing problem and that only a dying city has no problem. I would remind Deputy Ryan that in 1957 we had no housing problem because we had a dying city but that is all changed now. Thanks to the success of the Government's policy in keeping our workers here, emigration has fallen and the population of the city continues to rise. Therefore, there will be trouble in regard to housing every family that needs housing. Dublin Corporation, either under a city council or a commissioner, press ahead all the time, with the full backing of the Ministers, and take all possible measures to provide a dwelling for every person who needs one and who qualifies.
There has been much talk here about the waiting list. The approved waiting list of Dublin Corporation is about 4,500. I do not accept this list. In my view there are many more than that number in need of housing. According to the bye-laws and the priority scheme drawn up by Members of this House who were members of Dublin Corporation, that is the approved list. I would say that at the moment we need about 8,000 dwellings in order to end the immediate problem but even if we could get this number, the problem would be by no means solved because the population grows all the time and our people, thank God, are coming back from abroad because we can give the vast majority good employment and eventually, we hope, good housing.
In order to have a proper housing drive, money must be available. One may talk about nationalising land, as the Labour Party do in this motion. What would they do? Change the name on the top of the notepaper, or something? The fact is that the building industry at the moment is building to its full capacity. If the Labour Party want penal measures taken against workers in the building trade, to direct them as to what work they should do, they will meet with great opposition from building operatives, carpenters, plumbers, builders and the rest.
Deputy O'Connell referred to office building. Part of the housing problem involves the accommodation of persons at their place of employment. We must try to get a balance, first by ensuring that the money is there for house building and, secondly, by giving housing top priority. The Deputy will recall that in the last Budget the Minister for Finance put a levy on office building. That is a much better approach than trying to regiment labour and directing them as to where they should work—or else. That is a horrible approach. Any man, whether he is in public life or not, will agree that a family that needs housing accommodation must be helped every inch of the way.
While I do not think we will ever solve the problem of housing in Dublin, because in a growing city it is impossible to do so, we can be quite sure from reading the Government's White Paper Housing in the Seventies that the problem will be reduced to the minimum in the next few years. Having regard to the fact that Dublin Corporation have under construction or in course of preparation roughly 4,000 dwellings—I am speaking from memory—and that the housing waiting list is just over 4,000, it would seem as if the problem is solved but we do not accept the approved waiting list; there are other people who must be housed. Therefore, in the next five years Dublin Corporation will build or help to provide by way of loans and otherwise roughly 19,000 dwellings. Therefore, we are catering for those on the waiting list, both approved and unapproved and taking into account the natural increase in the population and the fact that emigrants are returning. There is no need to be downhearted about our programme.
We all deplore the fact that we cannot proceed more rapidly. At the moment there is over-employment in the building industry and even if we had all the money and all the land required it would be impossible to get one extra house built unless more building operatives could be enticed back, principally from England, to play their part in the housing drive.
The Labour Party seem to be under the influence of certain groups in this city who call continuously for a crash programme. I often wish that they would explain what they mean by a crash programme. The programme that Fine Gael and Labour introduced certinly crashed down on housing and brought the economy crashing down also. Silly platitudes and shibboleths are used but the only way to solve the housing problem is by a serious study of needs and by having a viable economy so that money can be provided to pay the workers, to acquire the land and otherwise to ensure a steady rate of building. This cry of "crash programme" is utterly ridiculous. It was thought up by people outside this House and repeated on every platform by agitators and, eventually, in this House.
This is the Parliament of the nation. We expect that Deputies returned here would give some serious thought to such a serious problem. It may look well in print or sound well on television to call for a crash programme and just leave it at that. This is completely dishonest. Unless a party like the Labour Party give serious thought to this whole matter they should leave it alone. Housing is far too important a matter for Labour Party gimmicks. This motion is only a gimmick. It will not increase by one room the housing stock in this city. I do not mind a family who are seeking a house agitating for one. I do not mind a father who sees his children living in cramped conditions badgering his Deputy, here or outside, to try to get a house for him. This is understandable. One has to understand the feelings of these people before one can help them.
A few months ago, when the Dublin City Council was in being, when the members of that housing authority went to attend meetings to discuss housing and allied matters, some of us were beaten up by some of the thugs outside. It was not alone the Fianna Fáil members, but members of the Labour Party, who were beaten up by those people and but for the guards there would have been serious injury inflicted on the members of Dublin City Council. This should make people think. The members of the council were voluntary members. I would say that the Labour Party members played as big a part as we or Fine Gael did on the council. They were assaulted outside the City Hall in the name of a housing drive and a call for a crash programme. As I have said, it is understandable if a man who sees his family in bad housing conditions should agitate. I am all for his agitating. However, I want to tell those well-educated people, the do-gooders of this city, who want to be on the bandwagon and who make silly speeches on housing, and all the new intellectuals we have in the groups agitating for housing, that I welcome their late recognition of the fact that this city needs more dwellings. One man who sounds off very often now on the need for more housing stated at one time, when asked what he had done, that he had once written a letter to Dublin Corporation on behalf of an applicant for housing. I am sure they got that letter in the corporation, a letter showing his deep concern for these people.
Housing should not be any part of politics. It is wrong, immoral, unethical —any word you like—to try to make political capital out of a housing shortage. There are experienced Deputies in the Labour Party, some of whom have helped in the housing drive. It is difficult to associate these more experienced members with this gibberish about nationalisation of land. The corporation has full power to acquire any land they want for building. All they need do is slap on a compulsory purchase order. There has been talk about directing people where they should work. Now we are coming to confiscation of property. This sort of approach shows the paucity of interest the party has in this problem. I believe this motion will do more harm to the Labour Party than any words of mine. We could tomorrow nationalise land and direct labour, but that would not result in increasing the housing stock by even one dwelling. Housing is largely a matter of tears and toil and sweat. The only way one can solve the problem is by providing more houses. That may be a truism, but it is something we must get over to those in the Labour Party who are trying to make political capital, for their own fell purposes, out of the housing situation.
Never before in our history have so many houses been built. Never before was there such a demand for houses. I heard Deputy Dr. O'Connell bewailing the fact that the Dublin tenements have disappeared. I say: "Thank God they have disappeared." It was Fianna Fáil who decided to sweep away the hovels in this city and give the people proper housing accommodation. If Deputy Dr. O'Connell had his way, he would have men living with their wives and families in a tenement room. It was to get rid of tenements that successive Fianna Fáil Governments pressed forward with the housing drive. Despite the fact that the population is increasing naturally and by the return of emigrants the housing situation is not getting worse. All the time there is material improvement. Had the Government not built up the economy we would not have had the money to build houses. We would be in the position the country was in in 1956 when the Government at the time had no housing problem because the people had left the country. We will not accept emigration as a solution to our housing problem. That is not the way we will solve the problem. We will solve it by intelligently planning our resources in both men and material. We want to eradicate the evil of bad housing. I would put housing at the top of the list of priorities.
Later in this debate we may get some rational suggestions from the Labour Party on the housing problem, but I must take Deputy Dr. O'Connell to task for his statement that we have the worst building record in Europe. Comparisons are odious; in this particular instance they are worse than odious. Nowhere in Europe in a country of comparable size will you get such a splendid building record as we have here. Grants are provided by the Government, not alone for new dwellings but for the repair and renovation of existing dwellings. I think this motion was tabled at the instigation of some outside groups because some of the wording is reminiscent of what one sees on placards or hears shouted from platforms. I do not care how often and how long people agitate but would these groups follow the example of the Catholic Housing Aid Society and the Methodist Church? In Gardiner Street you have an example of the work of the Catholic Housing Aid Society and in Sandymount you have an example of the work of the Methodist Church. These are voluntary bodies with a Christian approach. Instead of belabouring the Government and the corporation they set themselves the task of collecting money to provide housing for the aged. In the usual way the people of Dublin responded generously to their appeals. This is the headline the agitators should follow. These voluntary groups supplement the efforts of the corporation. The Minister provides a grant of £600 to anyone prepared to house an old person. These agitators should become involved personally in a positive way in the housing drive. I believe that Dublin will one day have the name of having the best housing of any country of comparable size.
The last speaker said that people said they would emigrate if they did not get a house. I do not suggest he was not telling the truth, but why emigrate? There is a rude awakening awaiting those who emigrate in the belief that they will find a house waiting for them elsewhere. The citizens of London are sleeping in public service vehicles because they have no homes. I am not criticising the authorities there—they have a problem—but I am suggesting emigration is not a solution to the housing shortage here and it is not a solution a Fianna Fáil Government would accept.
Mr. Ryan rose.
I have some figures here.
Sorry, I thought that the Deputy had finished.
Deputy Ryan is rather good at speaking on housing but not at putting any practical suggestions into effect. As I said a moment ago, apart from building new dwellings we want to conserve present dwellings. We also want to involve all we possibly can in the housing drive. That is why the Government provide financial assistance to a local authority. I think they pay two-thirds of the capital cost in the case of Dublin Corporation. In addition, last year, the Minister gave Dublin Corporation an extra £1 million to acquire land so that the land problem would not hold up the building drive. We can well see now that it is not holding it up. It is very obvious that this Government are making a big effort to reduce to minimum proportions the Dublin housing problem.
Resolutions or motions in this House will not solve the housing problem and are just empty platitudes. It is not sufficient for the Labour Party to say that they proposed a resolution in this House in relation to the housing problem. The proposing and opposing of resolutions here can be something of a national pastime. It is too serious a problem to debate in the abstract. Discussion alone will not end the housing problem. Only hard work from the Government and going down right through all the various sectors in the building industry and trade in the country will bring us to the point where we can say we have reduced the housing problem to its lowest degree.
I was criticised for saying that a growing city will always have a housing problem. So long as our people marry younger—we are glad of this— and demand higher standards of housing which we welcome, we shall have a housing problem. We want to ensure that every family will have adequate shelter: I am not interested in luxurious homes and that sort of thing. A family is entitled to live in proper conditions. I hope to live to see the day when people seeking houses will not have to approach a Deputy or a councillor to inquire about their chances. I hope to live to see the day when we can say: "The housing list is now at this figure and we shall build that many dwellings this year."
The Deputy's thirty minutes are now up.
I took a note of the time and he has two minutes left according to the time he started.
The time recorded is 6.55 p.m.
It is not 7.25 p.m. yet.
The Chair has to act according to the clock in front of the Chair.
A minute has now gone; there is still a minute to go.
I have some figures here which I should like to give the House. I think the Leas-Cheann Comhairle must be bored.
The Chair has no option in this matter.
If the time was recorded as 6.55 p.m. I would point out that it is not yet 7.25 p.m. Therefore, the 30-minute period has not yet expired and could not have expired when the Chair said it had.
So long as the Chair——
It is getting nearer all the time.
I have some very telling figures here.
It is all a question of the angle——
The time was called before the time had expired. I suggest that Deputy Moore should get two extra minutes.
It is all a question of the angle at which one looks at this.
We all know that Deputy Ryan could not be here at the proper time and may not be here again. Deputy Moore is entitled to two further minutes.
So long as the time is extended in the debate. Deputy Moore had ample time in the past 30 minutes to record all these figures.
Twenty-eight minutes.
The Minister is just wasting more time now.
Surely it is not too much of a hardship on him to expect Deputy Ryan to come back again next week?
I remember when, in Private Members' Time, a motion was put in less than three hours in order to save Fianna Fáil from being defeated in a by-election. Deputy Moore's speech is 13 years out of date and has no relevance to the children of today who were not even born 13 years ago. What concerns the people of Ireland now is that we have in Ireland the worst housing output of all countries in Europe.
Surely Deputy Moore and Deputy Ryan cannot both be on their feet to address this House at the same time?
Am I to understand that Deputy Ryan is not giving way?
The Chair has deduced correctly.
Then will Deputy Ryan please address the Chair.
Yes, sir. Imagine the embarrassing situation in which all Europe, being aware of the atrocious discrimination in housing in Northern Ireland, has been looking at the housing situation there and finds that, in Northern Ireland, they are building twice as many houses for half the number of people we have. The appalling thing, of course, is the discrimination in their allocation. Bad and all as we are, we do not discriminate so far as the distribution of houses is concerned. The fact is, however, that we are building one-quarter of the number of houses they are building in Northern Ireland.
Be honest.
Figures published by OEEC, the United Nations, by any international body of repute, will establish that our Twenty-Six Counties has the wost housing output in all Europe. That point should be grasped.
Will the Deputy please give the reference for his assertion?
I have no wish to go back 13 years except to say that if a Government fail because they build too many houses. I believe they have failed well and have done the people well. There are people in houses today because of what the inter-Party Government did in the way of housing. If one looks at it in the way a banker looks at it, they over-spent on housing.
Emigration forced the people out. That was the cause of the surplus of houses.
There never was any inclination on the part of the inter-Party Government to let housing wait while other matters developed.
Our people were housed in Birmingham and other cities in Britain.
At no time in the history of this State have there been fewer than 5,000 families on the waiting list. In 1956 there were 5,000 families on the waiting list. The experts' advice to the Government of the day was that the housing problem was solved. This appeared on the White Paper published by Fianna Fáil when they got back into office. They said the housing problem had been solved—and that has been their attitude for the past 12 years. They considered that the problem had solved itself and, therefore, the output of houses was reduced to one-tenth of what it had been in the days when the housing of the people was considered to be more important by the inter-Party Government than lining the pockets of the wealthy people of this country. Only a few weeks before the last general election, a member of Taca said to me that he hoped that, if Fine Gael got back into power, they would not go crazy on housing because, if they did, it would upset the economy and many people would——
Deputy Ryan should not talk to members of Taca.
Deputy Ryan is moving in the right circles, anyway.
