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Dáil Éireann debate -
Friday, 21 Nov 1969

Vol. 242 No. 10

Committee on Finance. - Vote 20: Office of the Minister for Justice.

I move:

That a supplementary sum not exceeding £10 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1970, for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Minister for Justice, and of certain other services administered by that Office, including a grant-in-aid; and of the Public Record Office, and of the Keeper of State Papers and for the purchase of Historical Documents, etc.

As Deputies are aware, the fact that I am moving only a token estimate for one of my Votes arises from the passing last evening by the House of the full amounts involved in my Votes, in common with other Votes which had not been discussed up to yesterday. With your permission, a Cheann Comhairle, I propose, as has been the practice in previous years, to treat the six Votes for which I am responsible as one group so that there may be one general discussion, without, of course, prejudicing the right of any Deputy to raise a particular point on any individual Vote.

The total estimate for all these Votes is £12,673,000. The total provision for the year 1968-69 was £12,386,900. The total provision for the present year is therefore higher by £286,100 than the corresponding figure for last year.

The Vote for the Office of the Minister for Justice caters for the staff and services of the Department's headquarters, and shows an increase of £15,000. This increase is accounted for by a small increase in staff and normal incremental progression.

There is in my Department, as Deputies are aware, a long-term programme of law reform. Much has already been done in the field of law reform but it is true to say that activity of this nature can be foreseen for many years to come. I should like to mention those particular projects which have now reached an advanced stage and which are most likely to become matters of practical interest to this House in the near future. These include: (1) legislation to deal with the jurisdiction of the Circuit Court and District Court, and other related matters, such as the entitlement of solicitors to appointment to the Circuit Court bench and the right of solicitors to plead before every court in the land; (2) a Criminal Injuries Bill; (3) a Criminal Justice Bill; (4) a comprehensive Landlord and Tenant Bill; and (5) legislation to modernise practice in the registry of deeds.

A number of other legislative proposals are also under active consideration, including Bills to provide for the enforcement of foreign judgments and maintenance orders and a Bill dealing with the jury system, which will have regard to the recommendations contained in the reports of the committee on court practice and procedure on this subject. Of necessity, I have to deal with particular projects on a priority basis and having regard to what appear to me to be practical considerations. One of these considerations is, of course, that the strength of the skilled advisory staff assigned to law reform work is at all times severely limited.

Up to the present, the committee on court practice and procedure have submitted nine interim reports. In addition, at my request, the committee have made available to me an extract from a further report which deals with the organisation of the district court in Dublin city and county.

In this extract the committee recommended unanimously certain changes in the structure of the district court in Dublin city and county. I have obtained the views of those affected, i.e., the justices concerned, the Incorporated Law Society, the Bar Council, the local authorities and the Garda Síochána on the recommendations and these are now being considered.

Three of the interim reports of the committee on court practice and procedure deal with the jury system, and another deals with the question of increased jurisdiction for the district court and circuit court. Proposals for legislation are at present being prepared on these and other related matters, and I shall submit these proposals to the Government shortly.

Two reports deal with the reorganisation of the structure of the courts on the criminal side. I hope to introduce amending legislation, based on these reports, in due course.

Further reports of the committee deal with the service of court documents by post, the fees of professional witnesses and proof of previous convictions. Provision is being made in the Court's Bill, to which I have already referred, for the service of court documents by post. The remaining matters dealt with in these reports are being examined.

On a previous occasion in this House I referred to my intention to examine, as a matter of urgency, the present law as to the grant of bail. I am satisfied that the position is highly unsatisfactory. The present state of the law, which arises from a Supreme Court decision in a constitutional case, is that every accused person must be granted bail unless there is substantial evidence that he would be likely to abscond or evade justice. This has contributed to a situation in which a great many persons awaiting trial—some of them with previous criminal records — avail themselves of bail to commit other crimes similar to those with which they are charged. In the 12 months ended 30th September, 1968, some 214 persons granted bail by the courts committed while awaiting trial over 900 known fresh offences against property. This compares with 500 such offences by 150 persons in the preceding 12 months.

In the light of the continued deterioration in the situation I am convinced that the law should be changed to enable account to be taken in bail applications of the previous bad character of an accused and the views of responsible police officers that there is a likelihood of further criminal acts if the accused is on bail pending trial. As far as safeguarding the liberty of the individual is concerned, I would like to emphasise that what I propose is fully in accordance with the fundamental principles of penal law laid down in 1961 by the International Commission of Jurists. I might also mention that what I propose is in line with provisions in recent British legislation on the subject. I am, of course, aware that there are constitutional difficulties involved in the framing of the particular legislation required but I am confident that these difficulties can be overcome.

The Landlord and Tenant Commission, who have so far presented two reports dealing with specific issues, are now engaged on their main work, that is to say, a review of the whole law of landlord and tenant other than the Rent Restrictions Acts. This work will, I hope, lead ultimately to a single statute which will modernise and consolidate the statute law on the subject. I am sure that not only the legal profession but the public generally will be at one with me in looking forward to the day when we can set out in a single enactment a statement in modern terms of the whole statute law on the subject of landlord and tenant. The task which the commission have undertaken is an onerous one, but we can be confident that the resulting benefits will well repay the work involved.

In the meantime the Government have already approved of my proposals based on the commission's first report and a draft Bill has been prepared. I hope to bring my proposals based on the second report before the Government in the near future. The first of these reports deals with the renewal of occupational tenancies and calls for the amendment of parts of the 1931 Landlord and Tenant Act. The second deals with extensions of the rights of renewal and of outright purchase given by the Landlord and Tenant Acts from 1931 to 1967 to what may be called ground rent tenants. It deals inter alia with the renewal of sporting club tenancies and the rights of local authority tenants. I propose to amalgamate my proposals in the draft Bill on occupational tenancies with my proposals based on the second report and to bring one comprehensive measure before the Oireachtas. This will call for the repeal of all the Landlord and Tenant Acts from 1931 on, and for the re-enactment of the surviving portions of those Acts together with new provisions based on the commission's recommendations. The proposals which I hope shortly to put before the Government will represent a useful step on the road to the major achievement of a single landlord and tenant code.

The Rules Committees of the district court, circuit court and Superior Courts have been busy during the past year. The district court rules committee continues its major task in connection with a general revision of the existing district court rules and also, with my concurrence, made the District Court (Extradition Act, 1965) Rules, 1968 which set out the forms to be used in proceedings under the Extradition Act, 1965.

The Circuit Court Rules Committee are revising and consolidating the circuit court rules and I understand that they have made considerable progress with this task. In addition, they have prepared draft rules dealing with procedures under the Succession Act, 1965, the Local Government (Planning and Development) Act, 1963, and the Landlord and Tenant (Ground Rents) Act, 1967. The Superior Courts Rules Committee drafted two sets of rules dealing respectively with contentious and non-contentious probate business, which are necessary under the Succession Act, 1965. These drafts were examined and certain amendments which were suggested to the committee are being considered by them.

Once more I should like to take this opportunity to pay a tribute to the judges of the several courts who are voluntarily assisting the work of the Department of Justice in their personal, non-judicial capacities. Judges and justices are serving on the bankruptcy committee, the censorship of films appeal board, the censorship of publications board and its appeal board, the committee inquiring into court practice and procedure, the commission inquiring into the law relating to landlord and tenant, a committee which is making inquiries relating to reform of substantive law and the commission of inquiry into the pay and conditions of service of the Garda Síochána. Their services are greatly appreciated.

The Adoption Board made 1,343 orders in 1968, 150 less than in 1967, when the highest-ever number of adoption orders was made. The proportion of children placed by adoption societies was 78.5 per cent, slightly more than last year's 78 per cent. I should like to place on record my appreciation of the excellent work that is being done by the adoption societies, of which there are 21. Six hundred and ninety-nine of the orders made in 1967 were in respect of boys and six hundred and forty-four in respect of girls. The board continues to hold sittings outside Dublin so as to facilitate prospective adopters. Forty-nine of the total of 99 meetings held during the year were held in various centres outside Dublin.

There has been some increase in recent years in the number of aliens registered as being resident here for three months or more. The number so registered on 31st December, 1968 was 4,435, as against 4,075 on 31st December, 1967. The influx of visitors continues to increase at a rapid rate. Over 133,000 alien visitors came here in 1968 from places other than Britain or Northern Ireland as compared with 116,000 in 1967. Those figures do not include British subjects. The increasing number of foreign visitors coming here creates problems for the immigration service. These problems are, however, under constant review by my Department in consultation with the other Government Departments concerned.

In 1968, 59 persons were naturalised as compared with 57 in 1967. This brings to 2,676 the total number of all persons naturalised since 1935, when provision for naturalisation was made.

In 1968 the film censor examined 982 films with a total footage of 3,225,210. The number of films examined by the censor in 1967 was 983 and the footage examined in that year was 3,118,293. Of the total of 982 films which the censor examined in 1968, 890 were passed without cuts, 57 were passed with cuts and 35 were rejected. The censor issued 106 limited certificates; there were appeals in respect of five of these.

The Censorship of Films Appeal Board received appeals in respect of 38 films. Thirty-two of the appeals were against rejection by the censor, five appeals were against the censor's decision to grant limited certificates (with cuts in some cases) and one appeal was against cuts. Of the 32 films rejected by the censor which were the subject of appeals, ten were rejected by the appeal board, two were passed by the appeal board for general viewing without cuts, 18 were passed for limited viewing, 16 of them with cuts and two were still under consideration at the end of the year. In the case of the remaining six appeals, three were passed for general viewing, two were passed for limited viewing and one appeal was rejected. In all, 121 films were passed for viewing on "limited certificates", that is to say, conditions were inserted prohibiting their exhibition to audiences under a stated age—the particular age being specified in each "limited certificate".

The Censorship of Publications Board examined 290 books and 14 periodicals in 1968. Ten books were examined as a result of formal complaints from members of the public and 280 books were referred to the board by officers of customs and excise. The board made 87 prohibition orders in respect of books and ten in respect of periodicals. Appeals were lodged with the censorship of publications appeals board in respect of two books. Both were lodged by publishers, one for a revocation order, the other for a variation order. Under section 2 of the Censorship of Publications Act, 1967, a prohibition order imposed on the grounds that a book was indecent or obscene ceases to have effect after 12 years. By virtue of this provision, 4,519 prohibition orders on books have ceased to have effect. Of these, 4,184 ceased to have effect on the passing of the Act, 176 ceased to have effect on 31st December, 1967, and 169 ceased to have effect on 31st December, 1968.

Transfers of testamentary documents from the principal and district probate registries and from the courts were temporarily suspended in October, 1966, owing to building operations on the two-storey extension to the Public Record Office to provide additional accommodation for the Land Registry. The intake of these documents has now been resumed. They will be taken in in stages and it is expected that they will all have been taken in and sorted, et cetera by the autumn of 1971. Some testamentary and other miscellaneous documents have, however, been acquired in the meantime.

The Irish Manuscripts Commission is continuing its work on the preparation for the publication of the Calendar to the Council Book of 1581-1586, the list of political prisoners in Kilmainham Jail during the period 1789 to 1910, the two 16th century Munster surveys and the record commissioners' calendars of inquisitions for the 16th and 17th century convert rolls. The Commission has published a further volume in its edition of the Books of Survey and Distribution. The volume is that for County Clare.

The largest Estimate for which I am responsible, that for the Garda Síochána, amounts to £10,823,000, and shows an increase of £204,000. This increase is chiefly due to general pay and pensions increases, and also to rising costs of some of the various supplies and services connected with the functioning of the force.

In the largest subhead, that for pay, subhead A, the extra cost of the 9 per cent pay increase, known as the 11th round, granted as from 1 June, 1968, has to be provided for a full year, having applied for part-year only in the previous year. As well, there is an exceptional increase because, this year, the pay of the provincially-based members of the force comes to a 53-week year in the recurrent cycle. These two items account for an additional £220,000. Among the other subheads, services rendered by the post office, chiefly postal, account for an extra £66,000 and there are increases in the costs of heating and cleaning and of operating transport.

There is also a substantial increase caused by the continuing cumulative rise in the number of garda pensioners, and by a general pension increase awarded during the year. Allowing for certain offsetting items, the cost of pensions has gone up by £37,000. Against these increases, there is a decrease in the provision for locomotion and transfer expenses, for which provision for arrears payments had to be made in the previous year, and there will be increased receipts from the Road Fund in respect of road traffic services rendered by the gardaí.

Last year, I indicated that I was embarking on a review of the organisation and development of the Garda Síochána so that the distribution of the force may better reflect the up-to-date position of all localities in relation to their police needs. I am satisfied with the initial progress made so far and I am continuing to pursue it actively. It is clear to me that, in much of our peaceful countryside, the services of the force are not so urgently required as in the more populated areas where crime is more prevalent and traffic is heavy. The situation at the larger centres is that the present strength of gardaí is inadequate. This will have to be remedied either by large-scale redeployment or by a sizeable increase in the over-all strength of the force.

I have been strongly pressed by Deputies and have received many representations in cases where strength reductions or closing of stations have taken place, and I have given these careful consideration. While I may have been unable to yield to their requests, I can say that in every such case, where I have felt compelled to close a station, I have made sure that the area is effectively distributed among surrounding stations from which it can be as effectively policed. So far, 80 men have been made available for transfer to other centres. This, of course, falls far short of requirements; and the problem which I shall have to resolve is the extent to which largescale redeployment, involving the closing of small stations and the transfer of men from rural districts, is the best solution to the real problems of the gardaí in large centres of population.

A year or so ago, the first group of traffic wardens took up duty in Dublin, and later on a number were appointed in Cork. The present position is that a combined strength of 120 is operating in these cities. Their services have been welcomed generally and it is now recognised that they are making a balanced contribution to the car-parking problem. They have also released, for police duty proper, numbers of gardaí formerly assigned to parking duties.

I attach considerable importance to a scheme of training courses for garda officers which I have put in motion, in order to keep the force abreast of modern developments in this field. It will ensure that a sufficient number of trained officers is available to fill the highest posts in the force. Initially, groups of chief superintentants and of superintendents are attending general courses under the Institute of Public Administration in association with officers of the other public services. These general courses will be followed by specialised courses on police duties at an advanced level. I hope that training of this kind will be a permanent feature of the future.

In mentioning that, in the last year, eleven new stations and thirteen new official residences were constructed, in addition to numerous reconstruction and improvement works, I make no secret of my own personal wish to see greater progress in the provision of adequate official accommodation for the Garda Síochána. There have been, and still are, problems of scarcity of capital and of professional staff, but I should like to assure the House of my continuing concern.

I expect to receive within the next few months the report of the Conroy Commission on garda pay and conditions of service. I am aware that the commission have been hard at work and that their deliberations have ranged over a very extensive field. In the circumstances, it would not be proper for me to comment at this stage on many general questions affecting the welfare and responsibilities of members of the force.

I regret to say that in 1968 the crime figures increased again. In the year ended 30th September, 1968, 23,104 indictable offences were recorded as against 20,558 in the previous year. The next highest figures were in 1966 (19,029) and in 1964 (17,700). While the increase in crime gives me cause for concern, I should emphasise that the incidence of indictable crime in this country is still low by comparison with that in many other countries. It is a cause for satisfaction and it is worth noting that our detection rate still continues at a high level (61 per cent), which is above that achieved in any other country whose statistics we have studied.

In this connection I would remind the House that larcenies, generally, even where the value of the money or goods stolen is trivial, are indictable offences. The figures for indictable crime are invariably swollen by, for instance, larcenies of pedal bicycles, for which, incidentally, it is very difficult to get evidence against the culprits. In 1968 2,469 bicycles were reported as stolen and proceedings were instituted in 308 cases only. Persons convicted of indictable crimes last year numbered 9,364 and of this total 28 per cent were under 17 and 54 per cent under 21 years of age. The comparable figure for 1967 was 9,521, of whom 31 per cent were under 17 and 57 per cent under 21.

In the year ended 30th September, 1968, the number of persons charged with summary offences was 173,592 as compared with 164,068 in 1967, a steep rise which is in accordance with the trend of recent years. Road traffic offences continue to constitute by far the greatest category—some 126,000 persons were prosecuted for road traffic offences in 1968. Nearly 121,000 "fine-on-the-spot" notices were issued for contraventions of the parking bye-laws and similar offences and in just over 19,000 of those cases there were prosecutions.

A new system of reporting and recording road traffic accident information was introduced on 1st January, 1968. Up to then, the Garda Síochána in co-operation with the Central Statistics Office, had published statistics relating to road traffic accidents. The new system involves the close co-operation of the Garda Síochána, the Central Statistics Office and An Foras Forbartha. The publication of detailed statistics relating to these accidents, based on information recorded by the Garda Síochána and the Central Statistics Office, has now been taken over by An Foras Forbartha and, accordingly, I do not propose to make any further reference to them. The detailed statistics for 1968 have recently been published by An Foras. My colleague, the Minister for Local Government, will I am sure, give the House all relevant information on the subject.

The statutory arrangements for the backing of Irish warrants of arrest in Britain and Northern Ireland, and for the backing of British and Northern Ireland warrants here, continue to operate satisfactorily. In 1968, 117 warrants, 20 of them from Northern Ireland, were received for execution here, and 91 warrants were issued from here, nine of them to Northern Ireland. So far no warrants have been received from any of the other countries who are parties to the European Convention on Extradition nor have any warrants issued from this country to any of them.

The Estimate for prisons, at £521,000, shows a net increase of £50,000 over 1968-69. The main factor in the increase, apart from pay adjustments, is the rise in the estimated daily average number of prisoners from 580 to 615. The higher daily average reflects the increase in crime to which I have already referred. Indeed it may turn out that the actual average for the current year will be higher than estimated.

Last year I mentioned the opening in August, 1968, of a semi-open institution in Shanganagh, County Dublin for the accommodation of suitable first offenders and selected long-term inmates in the 16 to 21 age group who show promise of improvement and of responding to guidance. The institution is still in the experimental stage and much remains to be done but a good deal of progress has been made. The discipline is less rigid than in closed institutions. A housemastering system is now in operation there. Under this system each officer is made particularly responsible for a group of eight youths or so. The hope is that these conditions help to inculcate a sense of responsibility in the youths and where necessary to build up their confidence and self-respect and so reduce the feeling of social inadequacy which so many youths who find themselves in trouble suffer from. I expect that in the near future the workshop accommodation will be substantially increased and that the officers will have undergone a special course designed to improve their understanding of the problems of the youths coming into their custody.

During the year I introduced in Shanganagh a system of pre-discharge leave for well-behaved inmates serving long sentences. This leave is granted to selected youths where it appears that they will use the short period of leave to make contacts with employers, to renew home ties or to accustom themselves gradually to normal life. I am glad to report that so far the scheme has not been abused in a single case and that in many instances the inmates took the initiative in arranging for employment for themselves.

Another innovation at Shanganagh was to allow a small number of long-term inmates home to their families over the Easter period, again with beneficial effects. A further experiment, with the object of providing an incentive towards regular progress, was introduced recently. This is a system of grading of inmates, with the special grade receiving extra privileges, in the form of home visits. Promotion to the special grade depends on the inmate receiving a sufficient number of marks for conduct and application. It is too early to pass judgement on the grading system but I am hopeful that it will contribute to the rehabilitation of the young offenders transferred to Shanganagh.

I shall have more information about Shanganagh for the House when, as I expect, I shall be introducing legislation in the near future to put Shanganagh on a more formal basis.

As regards St. Patrick's Institution, the centre for the detention of youths between 16 and 21 years of age, the inadequacy of accommodation to which I referred last year still persists. Pending the acquisition of alternative accommodation — which is, I am afraid, a long-term project — some additional cell accommodation has been provided as a temporary expedient. The most urgent need, however, is for accommodation for extra workshops and accommodation to enable a revised educational programme to be introduced. The appointment of a psychologist to the prison service in the near future, as well as additional instruction staff, will result in the planning and carrying out of an educational programme geared to the individual needs and capacities of the inmates, many of whom are educationally retarded. The psychologist will also assist in other respects in the work of rehabilitation, for example, in helping to determine the job aptitudes of particular prisoners.

One of the less satisfactory features of St. Patrick's is the very wide age group — 16 to 21 years — of youths who can be sent there. Nowadays there is an enormous difference between an experienced offender of, say, 20 or 21 years of age and a youth of 16, even taking into account the fact that the youth of 16 has usually a previous criminal record. I fear that the association of these youths within a single institution may have harmful results for the youngest of them and I propose to reduce the upper age limit for committal to St. Patrick's from 21 to 19. Such a reduction would incidentally reduce the existing pressure on accommodation in the institution.

In the prisons, welfare work, introduced a few years ago, continues to operate satisfactorily. During 1968 employment was secured during sentence for 43 prisoners who were granted temporary release for this purpose. In most cases they were released initially during the day and returned to prison in the evenings and over week-ends. Their earnings amounted to a little over £2,000 of which about a third was sent to their dependants. Over £400 went on tools and other out-of-pocket expenses; £500 out of their earnings was spent on special meals and comforts in the prison hostel. The prisoners themselves had some £400 for themselves on discharge.

In St. Patrick's Institution 70 inmates were allowed temporary release to employment. Temporary release at Christmas, for family reasons and for interviews for employment was also allowed in both St. Patrick's and the prisons. Driving instruction was provided for 29 offenders in view of the importance of a driving qualification in obtaining employment. Seventeen of these passed the driving test during the year.

As a further help in promoting a regular exchange of views on the best methods of treatment of offenders I have set up a departmental working group comprising the governors of the prisons, St. Patrick's and Shanganagh and officials of my Department. The group will also have the task of submitting proposals for bringing the rules and regulations governing the prisons and the institutions up-to-date.

Now I turn to the probation and after-care service. I should like to say, first of all, that I expect that the most significant development in the treatment of offenders over the next few years will take place in this field. There is a general trend nowadays to rely more and more on non-custodial forms of treatment coupled with a growing disenchantment with institutional treatment as an aid to rehabilitation. For this reason I appointed an officer of my Department last January to investigate the probation and after-care service thoroughly. I have now received his report, which is a comprehensive one. I am not yet in a position to give decisions on the recommendations but I am confident that I will be able to bring about a substantial improvement in the service. I am satisfied that the service is inadequate at present, in spite of the exemplary efforts of the individual officers concerned. The hard fact is, of course, that any improvements cost money, that substantial improvements cost still more money and that unfortunately there is a limit to our resources.

I am very happy to be able to pay tribute to the voluntary efforts which have led to the formation of the group known as PACE — Prisoners Aid through Community Effort — which will provide and manage a "half-way" house for discharged prisoners who are homeless and who need support during the critical period after their release from prison. It is a most praiseworthy endeavour which fills a long-standing need. I congratulate those responsible and wish their efforts the success they deserve.

I should like also to pay tribute to the members of the statutory visiting committees, the recognised societies engaged in welfare work, the voluntary organisations and to the many private individuals and employers who have helped so much in the administration of the prisons in the past year.

The next Vote is that for the courts. At £678,000 it shows a net increase of £21,000 over the year 1968-69. The gross vote shows an increase of £24,100 which is accounted for by the 11th round salary increase, the creation of additional posts of provincial class VII district court clerk, the upgrading of a number of district court clerkships, normal increments and increase in subsistence allowance. This increase is partly offset by an increase of of £3,100 in appropriations-in-aid, due mainly to an increase in the yield from fines and fees.

Deputies may recall that during the debate in the House in June of last year on the Courts (Supplemental Provisions) (Amendment) Bill, 1968, I indicated that the Government had approved the making of arrangements for a general close-down of sittings of the district court during the month of August. I duly made an order which came into operation on 1st April, 1969, giving effect to this decision and also providing for a similar close-down for short periods at Easter and Christmas.

From the experience of the close-down at Easter and in August this year, I am satisfied that the new system operated smoothly and successfully, met the convenience of the general public and contributed to the efficiency of the district court. The special sittings, which were an essential feature of the close-down arrangements, enabled matters of an urgent nature to be dealt with by the court. I regard the introduction of vacation periods into the district court as a most valuable reform.

With the approval of the Government a widows' and orphans' pension scheme was introduced last year by the Minister for Finance for members of the judiciary and certain court officers.

Estimate No. 24 is that for the Land Registry of Deeds. The figure of £313,000 for the year 1969-70 represents a decrease of £4,000 as compared with 1968-69. The decrease is accounted for mainly by the replacement of senior by junior officers.

As I mentioned last year, the volume of business coming into the Land Registry had resumed its progressively upward trend. Business, in almost all the various categories handled by the registry, increased further in 1968. Dealings, for example, rose from 34,693 in 1967 to 40,514 in 1968.

In the case of the Registry of Deeds the number of registrations again increased in 1968, the number being 34,201 as compared with 29,466 in 1967. Applications for searches also continued to increase, the figure being 6,235, as compared with 5,465 in 1967.

There is no need for me to stress the importance of the service to the community provided by the Land Registry. Deputies will be well aware of its widespread ramifications in our economic activities. The figures I have just quoted will serve to show how necessary it is that the Land Registry should be organised to cope with what will, by all indications, be a continuing growth in the demands for its services.

I mentioned last year that, on my appointment as Minister for Justice, I decided to accord top priority to the improvement of the service which, as Deputies know, has not been satisfactory for some years. As I said then, I arranged for a critical examination of the organisation and procedures in the registry. This examination is being vigorously undertaken by a special study group which I set up for the purpose. The group has already submitted three reports containing recommendations, which I have accepted, and I am glad to say that considerable progress had been made towards the implementation of these recommendations.

The changes that are being made in the organisational structure of the office as a result of these recommendations are so fundamental and far-reaching that Deputies may be interested in a brief outline of them. The traditional organisational structure of the Land Registry has been based on a horizontal stratification of functions. In practice, this meant that groups of staff at different levels were dealing, more or less in isolation, with different facets of the work of the office. A study of the effects of this compartmentalisation of functions revealed a wasteful multiplication of handling actions and the absence of a sense of commitment and achievement, which resulted in inefficiency. It became evident that a structural reorganisation was necessary so as to effect a closer integration of functions. This is now being effected by the introduction of a system whereby, for example, a dealing is processed from beginning to end by a unified section of staff under a single senior officer. Each section will have responsibility for land in a particular area of the country. Two such sections have been established on a pilot basis and it is already clear that productivity has been significantly improved. This system will be extended throughout the registry as soon as the staffing structure can be adapted to the task.

As has been reported to the House on various occasions, one of the principal difficulties besetting the Land Registry is the recruitment and maintenance of adequate staff to deal with the ever-growing volume of business. The study group addressed themselves to this problem and have recommended a grading structure which, combined with inbuilt systems of professional training and advancement, is much better suited to the specialised nature of the Land Registry's functions. The recommended structure is designed to make a career in the Land Registry more attractive, thereby encouraging recruitment and preserving for the office its experienced staff. The details of the proposed staff reorganisation are at present being worked out. I am, of course, anxious that such a reorganisation of the staff structure should have the fullest regard to the interests of the serving staffs, and it is my intention, as soon as these proposals have been crystallised from the management point of view, to arrange for full discussions with the staff side before they are implemented.

One of the areas in which bottlenecks have been continually arising is the Mapping Branch of the Land Registry. On the recommendation of the study group, I made arrangements for secondment to the Land Registry of a highly experienced officer from the Ordnance Survey Office. This officer, who has taken temporary control of the branch, has already recommended some very worthwhile changes in the mapping procedures, which will serve to expedite the discharge of applications for copy maps and of dealings involving the services of the Mapping Branch. He is continuing to study the organisation of the branch in order to equip it to deal efficiently and expeditiously with the growing demands made upon it. Where, and to such extent as, his recommendations will affect the staff's interests, I will arrange, before they are implemented, to consult fully with the staff side concerned.

The study group is continuing to examine in depth the detailed procedures of the office. Indeed, it is my intention that these procedures will be kept constantly under review with a view to any improvements, changes or adaptations which the requirements of the Land Registry will dictate from time to time. An example of the matters which the group is examining, and which will be of particular interest to some Deputies, is the system of paying for the services rendered by the Land Registry. I have asked the group to recommend suitable arrangements for the introduction of a system of direct payment in cash in substitution for the existing system of payment by way of revenue stamps.

Deputies will see, from what I have said, that I am determined to mould the Land Registry into an organisation which will be capable of discharging efficiently and expeditiously the vital service which it is providing. The job is all the more urgent in the light of the initial introduction, on the 1st January, 1970, of compulsory registration of title into the counties of Carlow, Louth and Meath. I hope that it will be possible to extend compulsory registration to other areas without undue delay.

The final Vote makes provision for the Office of Charitable Donations and Bequests. The estimate for 1969-70 is £14,000, that is £100 more than the total provided for this service in 1968-69. The increase is accounted for by the transfer from the Stationery Office of provision for the purchase of publications.

The useful and valuable work of the commissioners continued during the year. Cash amounting to £127,330 and stocks to the value of £1,512 were transferred to the commissioners during the year 1968, and on 31st December last the nominal value of investments standing in their name was of the order of £2,154,000.

It remains for me once again to express my sincere thanks to the members of the various voluntary boards and commissions which are associated with my Department for their valuable services during the year. I am continually impressed by the extent of their unpaid public service and the manner in which the persons concerned carry out their duties.

(Cavan): In dealing with the Estimate for the Minister for Justice we are dealing with a very important Estimate indeed. As Minister responsible for the Garda Síochána, the Minister is charged with responsibility for the preservation of law and order and the maintenance of peace in the country. He is charged with the administration of justice. At all times, since the foundation of the State, the Minister for Justice has held a very responsible and onerous portfolio. As that has been so in the past, so too is this Minister for Justice shouldering heavy responsibilities in the circumstances in which we live at present. We are living in a world of change, in a world in which there is considerable unrest, with young people and not so young people protesting about one thing and another and demanding rights to which they claim to be entitled. These people are using such methods as the protest march and even more vigorous methods to bring their claims and demands to the notice of society.

In that situation the Minister for Justice shoulders a very onerous responsibility and, indeed, our society might very well stand or fall, might very well move forward or go backwards on the performance of the Department of Justice under the Minister for Justice. In these times of protest, perhaps we have one advantage here if we avail of it. We are living in comparative isolation, notwithstanding the speed of communications at present, and as soon as the type of agitation about which I have spoken makes its appearance many miles from our shores —it frequently starts on other continents —we have a breathing space here. We are, as it were, served with notice that unrest of one kind or another has made itself felt in other countries. It behoves us, therefore, to avail of the breathing space that we invariably get and we should have a sort of planning and research section in the Department of Justice to study ways and means of tackling these problems which grow up in other countries and later penetrate to ourselves.

I propose to deal with a number of matters for which the Minister for Justice is responsible, including a nummer of matters that he has raised and I hope that when the Minister is concluding he will be able to say, as the Minister for Lands said about the debate on his Estimate, that it was a worthwhile debate. In fact, the Minister for Lands said that the debate was the best debate he had ever heard in this House. I hope that the Minister for Justice will be able to say that also, but if he does he will have to accept candid, wise criticism where we think that criticism should be made. I assure the Minister that any controversial matters which I feel obliged to raise will be raised because I consider them to be in the interests of the country and in the interests of the administration of justice and the preservation of law and order as well as the smooth working of the various offices for which the Minister is responsible.

Perhaps it would be better if I deal with any controversial matters early on in my remarks and particularly a controversial subject that has arisen here in the past few days regarding a television programme put out by the "Seven Days" team. Recently, this team saw fit and considered themselves justified in ventilating what they thought and, indeed, what a great many other people thought, was a serious social evil, namely, illegal moneylending and all the evils that can follow from that practice. The Minister concedes that this malpractice of illegal moneylending is a difficult problem and that it is a difficult one for the gardaí to investigate and detect and bring before the courts. In the circumstances it was very much in the interests of our society that Telefís Éireann should have put on this programme. I did not see the programme; I do not know whether the Minister saw it and I do not know how many Deputies in the House saw it, but it aroused the public conscience and it drew attention to this evil.

I know that the Minister for Justice is not charged with responsibility for Radio Telefís Éireann and I do not propose to deal with the internal workings of RTE or, indeed, with the policy of RTE, but I wish to deal briefly with a matter that I consider to be strictly relevant to this debate and that is the attitude of the Minister for Justice towards the illegal activities which were ventilated by Radio Telefís Éireann and raised in this House.

On a point of order, Sir, I do not wish to interfere in any way with the Deputy's discussion and I ask for guidance in this matter. There are a number of questions on this issue for answer on Tuesday next. There are a number of people, including one man who is ill, and the producer of the programme who have yet to be interviewed by the gardaí and there are reports awaited by me in this matter. I suggest, in these circumstances, that this is not the occasion to debate the programme to which the Deputy is now referring in detail. I think possibly other Deputies who have questions on this matter for answer next week will object to it. In any event, I think that, under the circumstances, it is irrelevant to this Estimate. I ask for the guidance of the Chair.

It is just as irrelevant as the Minister's remarks about the team of "Seven Days" and other people in Radio Telefís Éireann.

There is no objection on my part to a discussion on it now.

At the proper time, I shall deal with any of the Labour Party's allegations. They have been trying to twist the actual words I have used in this House.

The Minister made the allegations. This is now the Estimate for the Minister's Department.

This is not the proper occasion to do so.

On a point of order, do we gather from the Minister that this matter is being investigated by him or by the gardaí?

If Deputies will read my reply to the House they will see it deals fully with the investigations that are being carried out and that have not fully been finished.

As there is an investigation going on, would the Minister now withdraw the remarks he made here on Wednesday?

I gave the facts. I made no remarks.

The Minister made judgment.

(Cavan): On a point of order, I have just opened my speech on behalf of the main Opposition Party in this House in reply to the Minister's opening statement on the Estimate for the Department of Justice. I think it is out of order that my contribution should be interrupted at length in this way and I crave the protection of the Chair. I wish to submit, in reply to the Minister, that the Minister's Department is relevant to this Estimate and that anything the Minister or his predecessor in office did since the Estimate for this Department was before the House last year is relevant. This is a submission on a point of order. If the Minister had postponed a reply to questions put to him last week and said, in effect: “I shall not deal with this until I make further inquiries” then I would agree that the Minister had a valid point. This matter has been raised and partially dealt with. It is highly relevant—not Radio Telefís Éireann but the Minister's attitude towards any group of citizens in the country. I respectfully request the Chair to deal with my point of order on that basis.

The Minister's responsibility is in regard to the Estimates before the House. The Chair would hope that Deputies would confine themselves to the extent of the Minister's responsibility, and to any statement which he has made in regard to the matter; that there will be no discussion of the affairs of Radio Telefís Éireann.

(Cavan): I hope I shall do that. If the administration of justice in this country is to run smoothly and if criminals are to be brought to justice, it is essential that those charged with the administration of justice should welcome any information regarding illegal activities in this country and, in particular, in the matter of a type of law-breaking which it is difficult to trace down, difficult to detect, the principle which I have just enunciated is all the more important.

I would go further and say that, in the interest of justice, it is better that the forces of the law should, now and again, have to chase an odd hare which might bring them nowhere than that those who volunteer to expose illegal rackets should be knocked across the knuckles and should be told that not alone are their efforts not welcome but that they are indulging in phoney operations.

Might I correct the Deputy to say that nobody said in this House or outside that their efforts were not welcome?

The implication was strong enough.

(Cavan): I know that the Labour Party are rearing to go and that the Minister would prefer that this matter were not raised at all.

No, but in so far as it is relevant.

(Cavan): I feel it is my duty to deal with it in a relevant way on this Estimate and I propose to do so. As I say, it is much better that the forces of law should take up an odd false alarm and follow it, even if it leads to nowhere, than that responsible people in this country should be knocked across the knuckles or should be held up to ridicule for doing what they regard to be their duty. That is all the more important and all the more serious when the people who have raised this matter are, if not civil servants, quasi-civil servants or employees of a semi-State body — especially when these people are paid by the State. I am not saying that the Minister realised what he was doing when he reacted as he did to this question in the House but I ask the Minister, through the Chair, this question: does he not realise that he could be creating and has, perhaps, created a situation here in which people who regard themselves as State or semi-State employees might be very slow in the future to raise matters of this sort lest they should get the same humiliation as the “Seven Days” team got for putting this on the air?

For not telling the truth about their show, according to the gardaí. People they produced were actors: that is the whole point.

(Cavan): I shall deal with this in my own way. If we are to accept the “Seven Days” programme, then there is in this city of Dublin a serious social problem in the form of illegal money-lending coupled with an illegal method of collecting debts due to money-lenders by strong-arm methods. That is the picture which has been placed before the House. I do not know how deeply the Minister investigated this allegation but I do see that it was a very summary investigation because, immediately a question was put down, he was in a position to answer it. I would have quite understood the Minister's attitude if he had said in effect: this is a big problem that has been raised. I am investigating it. Would the Deputy repeat his questions in the future? I feel that, perhaps, even members of the Garda were annoyed and infuriated that this should be brought to a head.

Hear, hear.

(Cavan): Trying to approach this in an impartial way, without any heat or any personal axe to grind or without lobbying on behalf of anybody, I believe the attitude of the Minister and the Garda officers who investigated this would lead one to believe that the presentation of this programme infuriated not alone the Minister but also certain Garda officers. The result is we had an “on-the-spot”, summary investigation, a summary trial and an unbecoming outburst in this House within the last week.

Hear, hear.

(Cavan): The Minister has stated, by way of interruption to my remarks here, that the people who appeared on this programme were phoney, that they had nothing to do with money-lending and that they were criminals.

Some of them.

(Cavan): Some of them? Exactly.

Were they convicted?

(Cavan): From the Minister's reply the other day it would appear that some of these people were associated with money-lending. The Minister said so.

I must correct that. I did not say that and if the Deputy is quoting and going into this in depth he is not going to misquote me. I said is was a possibility that at some time in their lives some one of these people might have been associated with money-lenders.

(Cavan): I will accept that.

Why can the Minister not be frank about this?

Might the Chair suggest—

What I said in the House will not be twisted or misquoted by the Deputy for his own purposes.

The Minister for Justice should not make innuendos about a person's private life.

I did not make innuendos about anybody.

(Cavan): This is a difficult question. I feel it is my duty to deal with it and I crave the protection of the Chair to permit me to deal with it in an orderly and coherent way.

The Chair has already asked Deputies to deal with it in that fashion, in so far as the Minister is responsible. In that connection every Deputy will have his turn. It would add to the debate if Deputies would await their turn.

And the Minister also.

(Cavan): I will accept the Minister's version of what he said. He said that some of these people may have been in some way or another involved in money-lending in the past. Is the Minister splitting hairs? I think he is.

Such people may never have been connected with money-lending either. I have no evidence of it.

(Cavan): Either the Minister has investigated this thing fully and has a full report, or he has not.

I have a full report and statements from the people who were interviewed by the gardaí. The gardaí have no evidence that these people were connected with money-lending. I said it was a possibility that at some stage of their lives they may have been. I do not know.

(Cavan): The Minister says these people are criminals—past criminals—and these are the people on whose word he came into this House and “bally-ragged” semi-State body employees.

These are the people whom RTE presented on this programme to the public. If they were patently liars and paid to say these things why were they produced as being genuine?

(Cavan): They were presented as law-breakers.

They were presented as law-breakers and as money-lenders which they are not or which they say they are not.

On a point of order does the Minister fully accept the statements of persons who said they were paid to say certain things?

That is not a point of order.

I accept the statement that the gardaí gave to me.

The Chair cannot regard interruptions as points of order. Again the Chair would appeal to the Deputies to let the debate proceed in an orderly fashion.

(Cavan): The Minister cannot have it both ways. He said these people were interviewed and they said they were not money-lenders and were not what they were reported to be. The Minister will accept that, but he will not accept what they said when they were on television a few days before. He cannot have it both ways.

Do you suggest if the gardaí pay them £30 instead of RTE paying them £20 each, they would give a better story?

May I make a point of order? The Minister has been consistently interrupting this Deputy. The Minister will have a chance of replying. Deputies would like to hear the speaker and the Minister in his turn.

(Cavan): That is not a point of order.

That is not a point of order. It is an interruption on the part of Deputy Dr. Cruise-O'Brien.

It is a point of order.

(Cavan): I bow to the Chair's ruling at any time that I am informed by the Chair that I am out of order. I would ask all Deputies, through the Chair, to let me get on with the task I am trying to discharge. I am told it is out of order to deal with the programme in depth but the Minister drags me into this and I cannot avoid it.

The Chair says that the Deputies are to confine themselves to what the Minister said in relation to it and that the programme as such and the affairs of RTE should not be discussed.

(Cavan): The programme is relevant in so far as we are entitled to discuss here whether the Minister should have treated it seriously and acted on it. I submit it is relevant to that extent. This programme went on and I do not know how many people saw it. It disclosed this scandal, if it is true. I do not know whether it is true or not. I know from the Minister that if there is not a major scandal in illegal money-lending there is certainly a difficult problem to deal with for the reasons stated by the Minister. How many prosecutions have there been against illegal money-lenders in this city and in this country in the last ten years? What efforts have the gardaí made to track down these people? That is relevant in relation to the problem with which we are now dealing.

The Minister says he treated this matter lightly because the people who appeared on RTE admitted they were brought there, paid, and received liquid refreshment in the form of alcoholic drink. How many Deputies in this House have appeared in programmes for RTE? How many of them have been paid? Would that make them disreputable or unreliable people. How many of these same Deputies have accepted the hospitality of RTE in the shape of a cup of coffee, a small brandy, a glass of wine, or a small whiskey before going on the air? How many times have Ministers of State been in that lounge when the same hospitality was offered? I am not saying the Ministers partook of it, the one I have in mind did not, but he was there.

On a point of order, the hospitality of RTE surely is not relevant on this Estimate?

The Minister inferred they were bought off by drink.

The teas and the brandies and suchlike are hardly relevant on this debate.

The Minister started it.

(Cavan): I ask the House, through the Chair, is it reasonable, with the knowledge that we have of the manner in which RTE arrange their programmes, in a gentlemanly way, the way in which they receive people taking part in programmes and try to put them at ease before they go on, that the Minister for Justice should come into this House and give that as a reason for describing this programme as a “phoney” programme? That I think was the most objectionable word of the whole lot and I would like to think that it came out without much thought from the Minister in his closing remarks on this matter.

I say that the principle that is involved here is that perfectly law-abiding, well-intentioned citizens thinking of drawing attention to law breaking, social or public scandals, will be slow to do so after the exhibition we had here and the way that this "Seven Days" programme was received. In particular, an official of the Department of Agriculture might be very slow to make a report following this about some illegal trafficking which contravened the Acts with the Department of Agriculture unless he was very certain that he stood on firm ground and particularly if the person concerned was somebody of note or some public figure.

I am not standing here to defend anybody because I am sure these people are well able to defend themselves, although on that too, there may be something to be said, but what I want to emphasise is that we have set a very dangerous precedent here that could do irreparable damage to this country. I said these people are well able to defend themselves. You know, they are not. If these people are to defend themselves I suppose the only effective way they can do so is to resign from this semi-State body and fight the Minister somewhere else. They should not have to do that. It is not right.

Or do what Deputy Flor Crowley said.

(Cavan): If this programme is to be accepted on its face value or even accepted as slightly exaggerated—and in order to pin-point or ventilate a grievance in the theatre or on television we know that these things are exaggerated—but even if it is exaggerated, unless it is to be accepted as completely “phoney” as the Minister said, there is this problem to be dealt with. The Minister has charged that this was a “phoney” production which should be completely disregarded. If that is so the people who put on——

I hate to interrupt the Deputy but he keeps misquoting me. He is using words I never used.

(Cavan): I am sorry if I did that.

If the Deputy insists on discussing what I said would he please use the words I used?

(Cavan):“Phoney” is the word I will stick to and I will hang my hat on that because it crystallises the whole thing. If this was a “phoney” programme there is a grave responsibility on those who put it on and they should be dealt with in the proper way. However, that is the Minister's view of it. RTE published what I consider to be a denial. I had better read it. It appeared in the Irish Independent on Thursday, 20th November, 1969, under the heading “Statement by RTE” and read:

In a statement issued in reply to Mr. Ó Moráin RTE said:

The programme in question set out to examine the social problems of illegal money-lending in Dublin. Nothing in it was contrived to present a dishonest picture. Those taking part were treated and paid in the normal way on such programmes. There was no question of the participants being paid fees to say things impliedly desired by RTE.

RTE does not believe that its programme-makers were misled by the participants into distorting its presentation. It believes that the programme fairly reflected the serious nature of the activities involved.

I think Deputy Fitzpatrick's speech is worthy of a quorum.

Hear, hear, including Deputy For Crowley wherever he might be. It would not do him any harm at all to hear it.

Notice taken that 20 Members were not present; House counted, and 20 Members being present.

(Cavan): I have read the denial by RTE of the Minister's allegations as it appeared in yesterday's daily press. If we accept the programme there is a serious social problem—illegal trafficking and money-lending—to be dealt with here. If we accept the Minister's views it is a “phoney” programme and those directly responsible for it are not fit to hold their posts.

We have here a denial issued by RTE. Presumably that goes for the director general, the authority and the lot, because it has not yet been denied. Therefore, we have a situation where there is a conflict. In my opinion there is only one way to deal with it and that is to have a full-dress inquiry, a sworn inquiry, into it which will give everybody concerned an opportunity of publicly clearing himself and clarifying the position. That is, of course, if the Minister is not prepared to accept the denial of RTE here. I understand the Minister said—I am afraid of quoting him—that RTE employed a "paid agent" to get this information for them. If the Minister said that and if they did, what is wrong with it——

That is the research officer.

(Cavan):——if he was the responsible research officer of RTE, a member of a firm I understand that was employed by the Fianna Fáil Party to look after their interests in O'Connell Street on the eve of the general election?

This thing should be cleared and I have dealt with it sufficiently to demand that it be investigated fully by the Minister. As a result of the way it was dealt with by him there is the question of a serious injustice being done to the RTE programme involved. That is serious but more important great violence is being done to the administration of justice and the detection of crime because, as I have said, and I will be pardoned for concluding on this, honest law-abiding, public spirited people will be very reluctant to come out into the open and do their duty if this is the sort of thanks they will get for doing it. I hope the Minister will, on further consideration and reflection, admit he was wrong and guilty of a grave dereliction of duty in the way he dealt with this in the House, that he will withdraw the remarks he made and apologise. If he cannot see his way to do that he should then afford to RTE and those in charge of the programme concerned a public opportunity of denying effectively the Minister's charges in a sworn inquiry.

There is one other matter I want to deal with in a general way. I was rather shocked within the last week when, as a Deputy of this House, I telephoned the Department of Justice and asked to speak to the head of a section. I made my business known. I do not know who the gentleman was but when I identified myself to him this man, whom I take to be head of a department, said: "I better tell you that there is an order here that we are not allowed speak to TDs or Senators. I will put you on to the Minister's office." I had a very courteous discussion with the Minister's private secretary. I want to say I object, as a Deputy of this House, to being precluded as a citizen of this country from speaking to a civil servant in the Department of Justice. I consider the fact I am a Deputy of this House, while it might not extensively enlarge my civil rights, it certainly should not restrict them.

I believe if any responsible citizen calls the Department of Justice and says he want to make an inquiry about the adoption laws, the gaming laws or the liquor laws he is entitled to be met in a courteous way by a responsible officer, even though it might be necessary to make an appointment. That being so, I consider that as a Deputy of this House I am at least entitled to the same facilities as an ordinary citizen. I do not know when this ruling was made. I do not experience it in other Departments. I do not trespass too much on the time of Departments either by telephone calls for personal calls, as I usually write in. I know sometimes you get a reply from the secretary of the Department and at other times from the Minister. I should like the Minister to tell us whether this ruling is in operation in his Department with his knowledged or whether it is something he inherited and is not aware of. It is something which needs to be clarified.

The next subhead the Minister is responsible for is the Garda Sióchána. I regard them at all times since the foundation of this State as a very responsible and very effective force. It is essential they should be regarded as such. I do not think I could summarise better the treatment which I consider the Garda Sióchána are entitled to than to refer to portion of a leading articles, for which I believe Deputy Vivion de Valera was probably responsible, in the Irish Press of 25th September, 1968:

Let it be stated here and now that Ireland cannot afford discontented police. The Garda Síochána from its inception has been a moderate force. There can be no denying that the existing members of the Garda Síochána deserve at least as fair treatment as is allotted to any servants of the State.

I accept that completely. I think it is a fair and accurate statement of the value of a good police force and of the treatment that police force are entitled to.

I know the Conroy Commission are sitting and have worked pretty hard this year. They have heard a lot of evidence and submissions have been made to them. Notwithstanding that, I do not think that should preclude me from dealing with certain aspects of the Garda Síochána which I consider should be attended to. First of all, I anticipate that the Corney Commission report will soon be available to the Minister. When the Minister gets that report I hope he will make it available to the various Garda bodies and indeed to the rank and file of the garda. It is a report concerning these men and they are entitled to know what is in it and to have the benefit of reading it. I understand that is the proposal but there have been cases in the past where commissions sat and reports were furnished to the Government but they were not made available to the force. There is no doubt at all that if we are to continue to have the type of police force we have been accustomed to we will have to be fair to them. We will have to realise we are living in changed conditions and we will have to realise that society has become somewhat more affluent than it was 50 years ago.

When the force was first set up a man who joined it very rarely left it and went elsewhere. Indeed, up to recently, when a man had a good steady job in the police force or elsewhere he was inclined to hold on to it. Now you have competition in this country and outside it which will attract employees in any sphere in which they are not happy. Therefore, let us, as a result of the County Report or otherwise, provide proper conditions of employment and service for the gardaí. The Minister cannot deny that a couple of years ago unrest and dissatisfaction in one form or another manifested itself in the force. Years ago anything like a strike in the police force of this country would have been regarded as unthinkable and unheard of, but in the past few years we have had strikes and threatened strikes. Following this unrest and dissatisfaction, the Conroy Commission were set up and have been, as I said, taking evidence. I hope their report will be made available to Members of the House.

I have said the times have changed and that people in all walks of life, workers and citizens in general, are demanding better treatment and more liberal understanding than was the case some years ago. One of the complaints of the Garda is that they are operating under a disciplinary code introduced into the force in 1926 and amended, I think, in the 1940s. They have complained bitterly that the system under which breaches of discipline are dealt with is out-of-date and outmoded. They complain that a member of the force can be damned for life by a statement on his file sent to the Minister by a superior officer without the member ever being made aware of what the statement was.

If that is so, it is undesirable. If a man is to have his professional career ruined, his promotion prospects blocked, by a statement in his file, he should be made aware of it, thereby giving him an opportunity of defending himself against it. We are all human and even superior officers can be prejudiced or honestly influenced in one way or another. However, it is a fundamental principle of the justice of any disciplinary code that if a man is to be sentenced or punished on the statement of somebody else he should be made aware of that statement. I do not think anybody in the House will disagree with me.

Hear, hear.

(Cavan): The Garda conditions of service in general leave a lot to be desired. I am told the matter is being considered by Judge Conroy and his assistants and I hope the Minister will act on their recommendation.

On the question of Garda housing, I had occasion a couple of years ago to complain to the Minister or to his predecessor about a fairly modern Garda station in the village of Finea on the Cavan-Westmeath Border. The sergeant, his wife and childrens lived in that house without running water or toilet facilities. That is a public disgrace. I drew the Minister's attention to it at the time. I know they were thinking of closing down Garda stations and perhaps they had not come to a decision in this case. It was a nice little house which could have been used as a private dwelling if the gardaí moved out, but if this sergeant, his wife and children were to remain in the house for another couple of years, the elementary amenities of running water and toilet facilities should have been provided.

Is it near the bridge of Finea?

(Cavan): It is just on it. Even in the days of Myles the Slasher it would hardly be called proper accommodation for the police of that day. On research, I have found there are many such stations. They would be in the minority but they run into hundreds. I am glad to know the Minister does not approve of that, but it is one thing to disapprove and another to do something about. In the instance I have given, a septic tank and running water could have been installed for less than £500. A septic tank could have been laid down for £100 and it is not very difficult to bore a well. That should have been done in this instance because the building is not 30 years old.

The next point I come to is of a more general nature. It deals with the duration and the type of training given to Garda recruits. The standard of education generally in the country is increasing and I am sure that with free post primary education it will increase still further. I often wonder, therefore, if a garda is sufficiently equipped for the complex duties he has to perform nowadays—meeting the general public and trying to cope with various Acts of Parliament passed every day. In the six months of training in Templemore I do not think it would be humanly possible to equip any young man with all the knowledged and the techniques that he should have, especially if, as I am told, a lot of the six months is devoted to drill and to physical training of one kind or another. I ask the Minister to consider that question and to devote more time to the mental education of recruits even at the expense of physical training and drill.

Earlier I suggested there should be planning and research. I suggested that a section should be set up in the Department of Justice to plan for future requirements in the force because I do not think it is an exaggeration to say that this country and the world in general have changed more since 1960 than in the previous 50 years. It is very important therefore that the police force of the State should be looking ahead or, more correctly, I should say that those charged with the provision and the running of the police force, the Department of Justice, should be planning, looking ahead and equipping a force for the future. Perhaps one way of doing that would be to have closer co-operation between the Department and the commissioner's office, between the force proper and the Department. I understand that at present decisions are handed down, without a lot of consultation, from the Department to the commissioner's office. Whatever co-operation there is seems to stop there and there seems to be no co-operation with the rank and file through their representative bodies and there are two or three such bodies. It would be a very good thing if the implementation of any new law or regulation was discussed at length with the force in advanced and their views heard.

There is nothing that brings the law into more contempt than making laws which everybody knows will not be enforced. There is a good deal of that going on. The most modern example was the blanket speed limit of 60 mph. The gardaí have to enforce that limit but everybody knows they have neither the men, the equipment nor the time to do so. The result is that it is ignored and it leads people to hold the law in contempt.

This may not be the proper occasion on which to mention it, but one school of thought says the speed limit is too low and another that it is all right but, whatever the law is, it should be obeyed and people should be persuaded to obey it. If people are driving all over the country from Cork to Donegal and never see any units enforcing the speed limit they say: "It is all cod; nobody is bothering about it and why should I?".

I understand the breathalyser and the blood and urine tests were introduced without any preparation. The Minister for Local Government made an order introducing this section of the Road Traffic Act but I do not know whether he inquired from the Minister for Justice whether he was equipped to enforce this law. If he did, I do not know whether the Minister for Justice went down the line and inquired from the various units of the police whether they were adequately equipped because the fact is that they were not. The Minister was reluctant to answer questions the other day—he was prefectly entitled to refuse to answer them—as to the number of breathalyser sets available in various stations. He said it would not be in the interests of the administration of justice to do so. That is probably correct because I think they are very few and far between.

Again, when introducing an innovation like this, preparation should be made in advance and it should not be introduced until the police force are in a position to operate it. I do not know whether this is exaggeration or not but it has been said that preparations were made on a Saturday for the introduction of this law on the following Monday and that part of the preparation was to eject the ban ghardaí from certain facilities they had in one of the Dublin stations and take over that accommodation. I ask the Minister to ensure that things like that will not happen in future.

In recent times we have had these protest marches. As I said at the outset, this is something that should have been expected because what they have in New York today we shall have here in a few years or maybe earlier. Did the gardaí get any instruction in dealing with this type of problem? Did they receive training for or lectures on it? Was there consultation between the Department and the gardaí alerting them to this problem? This is something that should be attended to.

The Minister said he is closing down a number of garda stations. It would be a popular to attack that on all fronts and say that garda stations should not be closed down, but each of these cases must be taken on its merits and considered on its own. Where a case can be made for retaining them they should be retained. In Border areas, in the type of constituency I represent, the Minister should be slower to close garda barracks there than in, say, Mayo or Cork, because from time to time there can be many and unexpected demands on the gardaí in Border counties. It is desirable that we should not have to draft in gardaí who are strangers to the area and that there should be at least the nucleus of a force in each little village and town.

You cannot close down garda barracks unless you make adequate provision for doing the work and discharging the duties carried out by these stations. I notice the Minister stated that the cost of locomotion had been reduced and I am not surprised because I am told that the vehicles operated by the gardaí are, in many cases, a disgrace. This is directly concerned with the closing of garda barracks. If barracks are to be closed there is only one way in which the duties of these small stations can be carried out and that is by making the gardaí mobile. There is much complaint at present in the force about the standard and quality of motor vehicles issued to them. This is something that should not have to await the report of the Conroy Commission. It is elementary, especially when we hear that the cost of locomotion has come down. On a recent occasion, if my information is correct, three garda motor vehicles set out from Dublin to go to Kerry. One reached Naas, one reached Kerry and the other broke down somewhere between Naas and Kerry. That state of affairs should not exist.

That nearly happened a bishop.

(Cavan): It does not often happen to Bishop Burke. You would get a very irate bishop if he was provided with a car which broke down after the first 20 miles of his two-hundred-mile journey. Some of these cars have clocked up nearly 200,000 miles. This situation can again bring the law into disrepute. If the owner of a public service vehicle is refused a licence, has it withdrawn, or is prosecuted because his motor car is not up to a certain standard, or if he is rejected by the public service vehicles inspector, then the same inspector could not be expected honestly to pass some of the garda motor vehicles. Recently, when a member of the force was prosecuted—he was originally charged with manslaughter but the charged was reduced to dangerous driving—in the course of driving a State car, the defence was that the car was defective. I do not know if that was accepted but he was acquitted.

The garda compensation fund leaves something to be desired. In the course of his duty a garda could suffer serious bodily injury and find himself, under the code as it stands at the moment, not entitled to any compensation. I know it lies with the Minister and that, as the regulation stands at the moment, the Minister's hands are tied unless there is what is known as special risk. For example, gardaí are on certain bank protection duties at the moment and, strange to say, that apparently is not regarded as special risk.

There are cases where many members of the force have suffered injuries for which, if they could bring an action in the courts arising out of a running down accident involving a motor car, they would get very substantial damages but, under the code as it stands, they do not get compensation.

I have dealt with some of the matters in connection with serving members of the Garda which I think call for attention: more co-operation, better housing, better locomotion, a serious look at the length of the training period provided at the moment, the establishment—if it is not already there, and I do not think it is—of a planning and research section in the Minister's Department, and a firm stand by the Minister saying that he will not take over from any other Minister the operation of any new law, such as that dealing with the breathalyser, until he has the men and equipment to deal with it.

Some time ago I dealt with Garda pensions. I tried to deal with them more recently on the Ban Gardaí and Taca Síochána Money Resolution but the Minister pointed out, through the Chair, that that was a very limited order and I was not entitled to deal with them on it. I will deal with it briefly, I hope, now. The Garda were given the opportunity in 1951 to opt for half pension and a lump sum. At that time, due to the value of money and one thing and another a small section did not opt for it and they lost the right to opt for it. I am now appealing for a second bite at the cherry for them, an opportunity of changing their minds.

As the Minister knows, there is a precedent for this. The district justices, some time since the foundation of the State, were given the opportunity to opt for a change in pension conditions notwithstanding the fact that the time specified in the relevant order or statute had passed. Mental hospital and mental health employees were also given the same opportunity some years ago.

From 1925 to 1951 members of the force retired on two-thirds salary with no gratuity or lump sum. In 1961 they were given an opportunity of continuing on that pension scheme or of opting for a pension equivalent to half their salary and a lump sum, which was up to 1½ year's salary. Admittedly, they were given six months to do this but, at the time, either through ignorance or on bad advice, or for one reason or another, some of them did not opt for it. I had one highly respected superintendent in mind the last time I spoke about this. He is now dead. He died suddenly. He was one of the people affected by this. He knew for a considerable time before he died that he probably would not live long and he was worried about this. Between that and the barracks nearly falling down on him the poor man had a lot of worries.

As I say, conditions have changed and practically all of the small group concerned would opt for a lump sum and the half salary if they got the opportunity. I made this case very fully on a pensions motion on 18th October, 1967, as reported at column 1213, volume 230 of the Official Report. I do not propose to go into it again. It is there and can be read.

Another group I know to be badly off are widows of gardaí. Garda salaries are not such that they can make unlimited or, indeed, even adequate provision for their widows and dependents, with the result that many of these widows are in poor circumstances. The new State servants pension scheme which was introduced recently provides for a pension equal to 50 per cent of the husband's pension in the case of a serving civil servant. I think this pension is calculated as the pension he would be getting on the date he retired, even if he had served only five years. That was an improvement. The civil servants get that and perhaps this is where we have not got proper co-operation between civil servants and the Garda because I think one group should be as well treated as the other.

The widow of a garda qualifies for only 25 per cent of her husband's pension even if he has served for 30 years. This 25 per cent is downgraded in the case of these widows to as low as eight per cent of his pension if he had only ten years service. Admittedly, as the Minister will be advised, there is a minimum pension of £196 for widows, but that minimum is the maximum very often in the lower grades—in the case of gardaí or sergeants.

Members of the Garda have always contributed towards a pension scheme and, strange as it may appear, they are now suffering for that instead of benefiting. Members of the Garda have contributed 2½ per cent of their salaries towards pensions during their entire service whereas in the case of civil servants such as teachers and civil servants properly so-called and the Army, they contribute nothing. At present widows of State servants, excluding Garda, it must be borne in mind, are entitled to half their husbands' pension on full service, as I have said, even if he dies after five years, and a lump sum on his death. There is one exception: widows of civil servants who died before 23rd July, 1968, did not qualify for any pension under the new scheme. In the Budget last year the Minister said he had sympathy with these pre-1968 widows and that he proposed to do something about them. I understand now that he has made an ex-gratia arrangement whereby these pre-1968 Civil Service widows will get 25 per cent of their husbands' salary as a pension, as compared with 50 per cent payable to the post-1968 widows.

It is all right to say: "Has the Minister not been fair enough? Is he not giving the same 25 per cent to the pre-1968 widows and the Garda widows?" That is not entirely valid, because he is making a present, and rightly so, to the pre-1968 Civil Service widows, because they had contributed nothing at all to this fund, whereas the gardaí had contributed 2½ per cent of their salary all the time. I suggest to the Minister that he should arrange with the Minister for Finance that that 25 per cent will also be payable to the garda widows of the category I mentioned, and in doing that the Minister will be doing no more than being fair to them.

The widows of members of the Garda Síochána I have mentioned have also the complaint that they were excluded compulsorily from the social welfare contributory widows' and orphans' pension, whereas other categories of civil servants, up to £600 at one time and £1,200 at another time, were compulsorily insurable under this scheme and after that they were voluntarily insurable. Therefore, the £196 the Minister will say is the minimum amount for the Garda widows on whose behalf I am speaking, is already being enjoyed on a contributory basis by the Civil Service widows. If they are not in receipt of that it is through their own fault or the fault of their late husbands, but in the case of the gardaí, they did not come under this social insurance scheme and were not permitted to come under it on a voluntary basis.

Then there is the vexed question of parity of pensions. I understand that a case is being made about that and at present—I have not got the note with me so I am speaking from memory— the gardaí who retired prior to 1964 would want an increase of 28½ per cent or more in their pensions to bring them up to date. That is a cause for complaint. I know the Minister concedes that there should be parity, but again good intentions are not enough. I urge and I shall continue to urge that this should be rectified.

The Minister is responsible for the courts and there is a considerable amount of money being provided in this Estimate for the operation of the courts. It is essential in the administration of justice that not alone should justice be done but that it should be seen to be done. In the context of that time-honoured phrase, with some reluctance, I want to refer to a series of cases that were investigated in the city of Cork this year. There is a considerable increase in crime in Cork. You only have to read the Cork Examiner or other papers to know that there is considerable worry and disquiet about the upsurge of crime of one sort or another, particularly among young people, in the city of Cork. It is no pleasure to anyone to have to refer to specific cases, and were I not convinced that it is my public duty to do so, I would not do it.

There were four youths charged in Cork in May of this year with a total of 209 offences; they were mainly breaking and entering charges and talking cars without the consent of the owners and also one of sacrilege. The four unfortunate youths whose names are given—I shall not put them on the record of the House—appeared on summons or on warrant, I am not sure which, in Cork in May of this year, and apparently when the superintendent in charge of the case called the names of the youths, senior counsel on behalf of the Attorney-General, who had come all the way from Dublin, rose and said he was not offering any evidence and asked that all of the 209 charges be withdrawn. Having said that he was very surprised at the Attorney-General's attitude, Justice O'Donovan said: "As the law stands this court has no power to refuse to require an explanation for the withdrawal of the charges, totalling 209 in all. They would be marked withdrawn by the Attorney-General". Senior counsel for the Attorney-General said: "I am not preferring any evidence, and I think the order ‘Withdrawn by the Attorney-General' is not appropriate to the occassion". The district justice said: "Unless they are withdrawn by the Attorney-General, I shall not strike them out".

I do not know what the Deputy is referring to, but I am not responsible to this House for the Attorney-General's Vote.

(Cavan): The Minister is responsible for the administration of justice.

Certainly, but I am just pointing that out to the Deputy in passing.

(Cavan): I think the Minister will agree with me that it is a most unusual occurance for senior counsel to appear in the district court on behalf of the State.

It depends on the case.

(Cavan): I have been practising for a number of years and I do not think I ever saw that happening. Anyway, I do not wish to get into an argument about this case. I am trying to put the facts baldly on the record, and if the Minister is responsible I should like an explanation.

Is the Deputy's complaint that too much money was expended on bringing the senior counsel down?

(Cavan): No, I do not know why the senior counsel was brought down.

I assumed that was part of your complaint.

(Cavan): Yes, because he was unnecessary. The charges were withdrawn, counsel appearing for the Attorney-General did not inform the court, as sometimes happens, that the evidence did not justify proceedings. He simply said he was not offering any evidence. When he was queried by the district justice, who expressed surprise, he did not say that having investigated the matter there was no evidence to warrant the proceedings.

Has the Deputy ever heard counsel giving a reason for withdrawing a case?

(Cavan): I think I have, yes.

Well, in my experience I have never heard a representative of the Attorney-General giving the reason why he was not going to prosecute.

(Cavan): I think it would have been as well if he had. There was considerable anxiety and a lot of people in court were worried. A leading article appeared in the Cork Examiner on 30th May, 1969, under the heading “Charges Withdrawn” and I think it would be as well if I read it out. It read as follows:

To the general public the law is often somewhat mysterious and in many cases the public do not understand the implications thereof. However, a case which took place in the Cork District Court last Friday must have mystified many who read the result. There were 209 charges preferred against four young men and the Attorney-General sent senior counsel and junior counsel to the District Court to withdraw all these charges.

Now it may well be that there may not have been sufficient evidence to justify the preference of these charges against the accused persons, but surely if this was so, it should have been stated in Court. However, the charges were withdrawn and the District Justice expressed surprise that this should be done without an explanation either to him or to the public. We feel that it is only right and proper that the public should get an explanation as to why this legal, but somewhat unusual, procedure was adopted in this instance. To employ a hallowed phrase, it is of the utmost importance that "not alone must justice be done, but it must be seen to be done."

On 1st August the Irish Times printed a long editorial on the subject. There was a lot of speculation and questioning about what had happened and why it had happened. The reason I mention this here is to ask the Minister or the Attorney-General, whoever is responsible, to clarify the position. I am not making any wild charges. I am simply drawing the Minister's attention to what has happened.

I will inquire into it. I am only saying offhand that I have never heard them stating that they were not prosecuting because they had not sufficient evidence. In fact if they said that it would be a reflection on the people who got out because it would be an implication that they were guilty but that there was not sufficient evidence on which to go ahead.

(Cavan): I heard a story about a circuit court judge who once said: “You can leave this court and the only stain on your character is that you have been acquitted by a jury from this county.”

In raising my next point I want to emphasise that it has nothing to do with the case I have just read. I think it is fundamentally unsound for a Deputy, representing a constituency, to be given briefs as prosecutor for the State in that constituency. I understand it is happening in two cases at the moment and it could lead to criticism, which in turn, could lead to the wrong conclusions being drawn. If I were counsel I would certainly not like to be asked to prosecute——

This again comes under the Attorney-General.

(Cavan): But it is in the administration of justice.

The Attorney-General's Vote comes under the Taoiseach's Vote. I have no responsibility in this matter. The Attorney-General appoints counsel and deals with court cases. If the Deputy has a complaint it will have to be discussed in the debate on the Taoiseach's Vote.

This would be appropriate to the Attorney-General's Vote.

(Cavan): I shall leave it at that but I want to emphasise that this is in no way a reflection on the two eminent gentlemen concerned, but I believe it does violence to the principle that not alone must justice be done but it must be seen to be done. As a solicitor I would not like to be prosecuting a well-known supporter or a well-known opponent.

The Minister dealt with the probation service and after-care. These are very important services. The probation service needs to be considerably augmented. It was amazing to be told that there are only six probation officers in the whole city of Dublin. Up to last January there had been seven but a senior man was relieved of his duties in order that he could undertake study. The probation officers keep in touch with the first offenders who are almost invariably young offenders who have been allowed out on probation instead of being sent to prison or to other institutions. These six probation officers will be dealing, at any one time, with about 300 probationers. These probation officers are attached to the children's court; they only go to other courts on request. Their work is time-consuming. It is not enough merely to call on these probationers. They have to spend a lot of time talking, advising and helping them.

Obviously six probation officers for the entire city is inadequate. It was even more amazing to learn that there is not a probation officer in the city of Cork or the city of Limerick. In fact, there is not one outside the city of Dublin. These young people, usually coming from underprivileged families, come up before the district justice at the age of 15 and 16. The district justice decides he should not send them to prison and allows them out on probation instead, although there is nobody to look after them. The only people who look after them are the unfortunate parents who must have already fallen down in their job for one reason or another. In this day and age we should have at least a probation officer for each county and I do not think that would be over-staffing the service at all. I was glad to hear the Minister dealing with the problem and I gather he recognises that the problem exists.

Under the same heading. I saw the appointment of a full-time psychiatrist to the prison service, presumably for young people. I was glad to hear that because the Minister in reply to a question here some time ago seemed to be talking a rather strong-armed attitude towards the allegation that most prisoners or young criminals needed psychiatric treatment. He said he did not believe that every criminal was mentally disturbed or that because the mother, during pregnancy, saw a puck goat that the child would be born a criminal. I think that was a regrettable attitude to adopt even though it was adoped in crossfire in the House. The Minister's attitude in his speech today confirms that most criminals— maybe that is too strong a name for them, because most of them are young people—come from underprivileged homes where there is unhappiness, poverty, drinking, gambling or something like that. I am convinced that while it is not necessary that they should all be treated as mentally defective or mentally disturbed, all of them require to be examined, assessed and helped. I am glad to think that perhaps the statement made by the Minister is an indication of a move in that direction.

The Minister dealt with St. Patrick's Institution. Apparently, it is overcrowded and further accommodation is required. The institution is dealing with young people from 16 to 21 years of age. I throughly agree with the Minister that it is too wide an age group and I approve of his suggestion to reduce the upper age limit to 19 and to make the age group 15 to 19. The Minister could even go a little further.

In my view, the siting of St. Patrick's Institution is wrong. You may call it St. Patrick's Institution for boys but it is Mountjoy Jail, practically under the same roof. The environment is wrong and the atmosphere is not conducive to rehabilitation. The boys should be removed from there.

Marlborough House is still used as a remand home. I am told that it is in a deplorable state of repair, that it is quite unsuitable and that the youths on remand there have nothing to do. They are usually there for only a week but sometimes boys may be there for a month and I am told that they have nothing to do but to twirl their thumbs, that there are no proper educational or recreational facilities for them.

The closing down of Artane for the reception of boys is also a setback as far as the courts are concerned. The only alternative is to send boys, who formerly would have gone to Artane, many miles away from the city of Dublin. That is not a reflection on the institution to which they are sent but city youths would be better in a city environment because they regard being sent a couple of hundred miles as transportation. So I am advised.

Perhaps it would be no harm to send them even further.

(Cavan): That is an old-fashioned way of looking at it and it is an attitude that I am trying to get away from.

They might be as well away from Cavan.

(Cavan): There are parts of Tipperary that they might be as well away from also. As to what the Parliamentary Secretary has just said, that it might be good for them to be sent a long distance, that is to regard detention as punishment because it is a punishment to have them away from their own surroundings. I do not think that punishment is what is required. I am not coming in here to advocate that all those who have broken the law are little angels, that none of them are criminals. Of course, there are some criminals but the vast majority could be reformed, rehabilitated and reclaimed. I am glad to see that the Minister is thinking on those lines but he is not putting his thoughts into operation.

The Deputy agrees that they are being taught in these schools?

(Cavan): Yes. The only thing I said was that they are probably too far away for city children.

My own personal opinion is that to send them to the country would be a good thing.

(Cavan): I do not know whether this is in order or not: I know I cannot advocate legislation and I do not propose to do that but I propose to do the opposite. I am glad to see that the Criminal Justice Bill did not take up more than a line of the Minister's brief in reference to some other matters and I sincerely hope that we will hear no more about that Bill because it is entirely unnecessary; it is absolutely repressive. I could not be expected to hail the general election as a complete success as far as my party was concerned but there is one thing it did—it killed the Criminal Justice Bill and I can only hope that the Minister for Justice will never revive it.

One thing that struck me in listening to the Minister's speech was that he said that we had a 61 per cent crime detection record in this country and that, from research and inquiries made abroad, that was considerably higher than most other countries and that in some of those other countries in which he made inquiries they have the type of legislation that is enshrined in the Criminal Justice Bill that he was thinking of introducing here. That should prove that we are getting on very well and do not want the big stick methods, using hammers to kill flies, such as that Bill would involve. One of the things I had particularly against it was that it would involve the Garda Síochána directly in political matters, directly in deciding whether people should hold parades or not. I shall not say any more about the Criminal Justice Bill. I hope we have heard the end of it and that it will not be reintroduced. What I have not said now would certainly be said if it were introduced again.

The Minister dealt at some length with law reform. The first item that he dealt with, although a very small item, is a matter of some concern to me. It is the serving of court documents by post. Deputies who are not members of the legal profession might think that this is some legal hobby-horse of mine. It is not. One could come across a case where, we will say, a wife is incurring debts unknown to her husband and the creditor issues a civil bill in the district court and serves it through the post. Of course, the wife will get the civil bill. The husband will not hear of that if he has not heard about the debt. The matter can go as far as a committal summons on which a man can be sentenced to six months imprisonment for failure to pay the debt and he may not know that the case is on. Admittedly, he will know when the guards come for him and tell him that he has been sentenced to six months and he can do something about it then on the ground that he had no knowledge. It is not fair to wait that long. There should be one summons server in a workable area to serve documents that must be served personally. Failing that, perhaps the Minister could hand over this further work to the Garda Síochána; any work that is going is usually given to them. But these documents should be served personally. There can be no doubt about that.

Law reform is necessary. We are living in changing times and changing conditions and we are operating a system that worked well for a very long time. The time has now come when this system needs to be up-dated.

The Minister dealt with the increase in jurisdiction of the circuit court. This is long overdue. It must be 20 years since the jurisdiction was fixed at £600. Damages in the type of case usually dealt with in the circuit court have doubled, trebled and, in some cases, quadrupled since the jurisdiction was fixed at £600. The jurisdiction should be increased. No extensive research is required in order to increase jurisdiction from £600 to a more suitable figure. It is simply a matter of introducing legislation substituting £X for £600. Most people believe jurisdiction should be increased to £2,000 or £3,000; some go so far as to say it should be £5,000. Certainly any increase would bring justice nearer to the people. It would save long journeys and provide cheaper justice. Most of the actions are running down actions, actions for personal injuries arising out of motor accidents.

The jurisdiction in the district court is £50. That would hardly put a wing on a motor car. It should be increased substantially. If it were increased many small actions now tried in the circuit court could be tried in the district court. When the jurisdiction is being increased I appeal to the Minister to amend the rules of court at the same time; they will need to be amended. There will have to be provision for fees if the jurisdiction is increased, but that does not mean that there will not still be a very considerable saving in the circuit court. It should not be difficult to do these things. This is the kind of reform that should be brought in at once.

In the High Court we could have reform without any great innovations. At the moment litigants and witnesses, professional and otherwise, have to travel from the most remote areas to Dublin and they have no assurance that the case in which they are to appear will be heard the day they arrive. The list should be arranged in such fashion that people travelling from a distance will be assured of the case in which they are interested starting on the day they arrive, even if that involves the appointment of another couple of High Court judges. I do not think it would. There is no legal aid in civil cases and many people involved in High Court actions could not afford to arrange for an engineer, a surgeon and other professional witnesses to spend a couple of days hanging around waiting for a case to be heard. That should not be necessary and law reform is not needed to avoid such a situation.

Surely, the Deputy will admit that there is no jurisdiction over the length of time a case will take.

(Cavan): If one knew the day on which a case would start the position would not be so bad.

Suppose there were two trivial cases; one might finish in an hour and the other might take ten hours.

(Cavan): No High Court action will end in an hour. In arranging the lists preference should be given to litigants coming from long distances. That can be done in England. I do not know how it is done, but I was told two months ago that a case in which I am interested will be heard on 2nd December, and heard it will be on that date. With a bit of effort, a bit of rearranging of the list, and a bit of reform within the present framework, one could do away with a great deal of inconvenience.

The Minister dealt with the appointment of solicitors as circuit court judges. I think that is a good idea. Many solicitors would make excellent circuit court judges. Many of them would be familiar with rural Ireland and the kind of problem that has to be dealt with in the circuit court. The knowledge they would bring to bear on the administration of justice would be a tremendous asset.

The Minister dealt with the right of audience of solicitors. At the moment there is a right of audience in the district court and the circuit court. There is a right of audience in the High Court in certain instances, such as bankruptey. This would be a welcome reform. If solicitors wished to specialise and conduct cases in the High Court they should have that right. Many of them are well-qualified and well-equipped to do that.

The Minister also dealt with the possibility—I do not know whether he was flying a kite or looking for information—of amalgamating the two professions statutorily. This is a reform which would need serious consideration. It is something on which I and my party have an open mind. If it is a reform that might give quicker justice——

Notice taken that 20 Members were not present; House counted, and 20 Members being present,

(Cavan): For the benefit of those who have been taken away from lunch I was dealing with the suggestion of the Minister to amalgamate the legal profession and I have said that in so far as I am concerned, we have an open mind on this. We are in favour of reform and we are in favour of more efficient and cheaper administration of justice.

However, I wish to go on record as saying that in my opinion the reforms suggested by the Minister are not something that can be done in a hurry like the other matters that I have dealt with, the increase in the jurisdiction of the circuit court and more convenient disposals of cases in the High Court. This is a matter that will have to be considered at great length by a widely representative committee who would report to the House, because we would be undoing something that has been in operation for hundreds of years. That does not mean it should not be done if it is the right thing to do but it should not be done in a hurry.

I say that because some of the countries that operate the single system find that it is a very expensive process. For instance, in the United States where this system prevails it costs more to have a case heard and determined that in any other country in the world that I know. They have the single profession but of course they must also have specialists and special counsel which really brings it down to a multi-profession.

If we are to do this the Minister will also have to be in a position to introduce at exactly the same time a system of free legal aid in all civil cases where it is necessary, because if there is an amalgamation of the solicitors' and barristers' profession it will not be possible for the litigant, as it is at present, to get, literally, a team of lawyers to take on his case and fight it to the bitter end even at the risk of getting no remuneration and being at considerable loss if the case went against him. That will not be possible if one man must go into court and devote his time for several days a week to one case. He could not afford to take that risk because there might be no remuneration for him at the end. Therefore, this question of amalgamation is not one to be jumped at. It must be considered, and would have to be introduced, in conjunction with other reforms.

The Minister dealt with the closing down during August of the district court. Closing down in August was all right but there were probably cases of people who were inconvenienced by reason of the fact that they did not realise there would be no court in August. However, that difficulty was overcome by district justices holding special courts to grant licence applications and so on.

The Minister has also dealt at some length with the Land Registry. I am glad that he has done so and that he admits that all is far from well in the Land Registry in the sense that there are tremendous delays. I know that there are delays of up to five or six months but if I were to put down a Parliamentary Question I would be told that the delays are up to ten weeks but this is not so. I suppose part of the reason for this is that everybody building a house requires a Land Registry map and in many cases where county councils or building societies give loans they insist on a map as well as the folio. This is leading to all sorts of hardship and inconvenience in solicitors' offices and, more important, from the point of view of the general public. Building contractors and builders suppliers are all being inconvenienced. The Minister has said that the volume of business in the Land Registry has increased. The volume of business is going up because of the delay in getting maps in the other section. The Minister mentioned that the number of searchers had gone up by leaps and bounds. The number of searches have gone up because it is difficult to get maps.

The Land Registry is not being run for nothing. It is costing people who avail of it quite a bit of money. In fact, the court expenses in general, and by court expenses I do not mean litigation only. If a small farmer dies, his widow or family, according to my reckoning, would be involved in fees to the extent of at least £25 10s. to regularise the title, leaving aside professional charges.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
The Dáil adjourned at 2 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Tuesday, 25th November, 1969.
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