Deputy Dowling to resume.
Private Members' Business. - Old Age Pensions : Motion (Resumed).
Debate resumed on the following motion:
That Dáil Éireann is concerned about the plight of old age pensioners, particularly those living on their own and calls for substantial improvements in their pensions and the provision for them of a comprehensive home-help and meals service—(Deputy Ryan.)
I wish to point out that it is now 7.9 p.m.——
On a point of order, could I ask the Chair to say if I have the right to speak now since I am next in line to speak? Would the Chair kindly name the speakers who have so far contributed?
It is a matter for the Chair to name the speakers.
Surely the rotation up to this has been to call a Deputy from each party consecutively?
Why did you not vote? Why did you abstain?
Will you keep quiet or I will let the people of South County Dublin——
(Interruptions.)
Only two surviving members.
One Fianna Fáil Deputy was called after another and that seems to be in breach of the system of rotation.
That is not so.
I am told that Deputy Dowling was called after Deputy——
(Interruptions.)
I understand that Deputy Dowling was called after Deputy Dr. Byrne of Fine Gael.
Is the Ceann Comhairle aware that a Labour speaker offered at that point? Deputy John O'Connell offered and he was ignored.
A Deputy
He was not. You were not here.
The Labour benches were empty as usual.
On a point of order——
(Interruptions.)
I am waiting until there is a little order in the House.
There is a better chance of that now that Deputy Cluskey has gone.
Deputy Cluskey was forced to leave the House because of your manoeuvres.
I was not even here.
I am not going to make a point of order against the howling pack from the far side.
(Interruptions.)
The question I want to ask——
Is it Parliamentary, Sir, to refer to the people on this side of the House as a howling pack? We had another term last week. To me the phrase "a howling pack" means a pack of wolves. That should not be allowed and I would ask the Deputy to withdraw the remark.
Deputy Tully.
I should like to know if the order of speakers tonight on Private Members' Business was not as follows: Deputy Tom O'Donnell, Deputy David Andrews and Deputy Dr. Byrne from Fine Gael?
(Interruptions.)
I am asking the Chair. I am not asking the Deputy who has not spoken here yet. He has not spoken for years. Would the Ceann Comhairle agree that that was the order of speakers here tonight?
It was the right order.
I understand that in this debate the following speakers took part in this order: the motion was moved on the last occasion by Deputy Ryan, followed by Deputy Tom O'Donnell—two speakers.
The proposer and the seconder.
Deputy Andrews was followed by Deputy Dr. Byrne of Fine Gael and Deputy Dowling was then called.
Why was I not called?
The Deputy was not here.
(Interruptions.)
You will appreciate, Sir, that no Labour speaker was called and a Labour Deputy——
A Deputy
You were not here.
"Baying" would be a better word than "howling".
I second that grunt.
I would point out to Deputy Tully that there is ample time in which to call a Labour speaker and that the Chair could not do so——
I am sorry, Sir, I cannot hear you.
What is your ruling, Sir?
Could I get this clear? If there were two Fine Gael speakers, one Fianna Fáil speaker and one Fine Gael speaker again, and if a Labour Deputy offered and was not called, is that not unfair?
No.
There should be four Fianna Fáil speakers to every one Labour speaker.
I understand that when the Fianna Fáil Deputy concluded no Labour Deputy was offering and the Chair called——
(Interruptions.)
Was there a Labour Deputy offering when the third Fine Gael Deputy finished?
This is not Question Time.
I do not want to disrupt the business of the House but all I want to ensure is this, that the threat made last week in this House that an attempt would be made to force you to call one Fianna Fáil Deputy and one from this side will not be carried out.
(Interruptions.)
Order.
I would ask the Chair to call a Labour Deputy following the third Fine Gael speaker——
One out of five is all you are entitled to.
I would inform Deputy Tully that the debate is not ending and there is ample time to call a Labour speaker.
There is not.
That is not the point. On a point of order——
Members of the Labour Party want to prevent a discussion on social welfare. They have no interest in it.
On a point of order, Sir, I respect your judgment on this matter. You stated quite clearly in relation to Private Members' motions that in your experience, for 40 years, there has been a clear-cut allocation of speakers, party by party, across the House. In specific reply to Deputy Boland, the Minister for Local Government, you repeated that statement tonight. Quite frankly, if it were not for the fact that Deputy Carter was in the Chair and ruled in a disgraceful manner——
That is not a point of order.
On a point of order——
On a point of order——
(Interruptions.)
Surely Deputy Desmond should withdraw his allegations that——
Will the Deputy please resume his seat? I should like to make it quite clear that the Chairman could not call a member of the Labour Party because the Labour Party benches were empty.
On a point of order, that is not true. That statement must be withdrawn because it is not true.
When Deputy Andrews sat down there was no member of the Labour Party sitting there.
When Deputy Byrne sat down Deputy Dr. O'Connell offered and was not called.
(Interruptions.)
When I finished speaking on this motion there were three members in the Labour benches one of whom was Deputy Dr. O'Connell who offered to speak and at the same time Deputy Dowling offered to speak and Deputy Dowling was called.
He offered before that.
On a point of order, I am asking Deputy Desmond to withdraw his allegation against Deputy Carter that he ruled in a disgraceful manner.
Nobody is listening to you.
Deputy FitzGerald.
Is Deputy Desmond to be asked to withdraw this scandalous allegation?
Could I ask——
On a point of order——
I am on a point of order.
On a point of order, is Deputy Tully to get away with that scandalous allegation against the Chair?
What allegation?
The allegation of partiality on the part of the Chair.
Repeat it now.
Deputy Tully has alleged partiality on the part of the Chair. He should be ashamed of himself.
On a point of order, I should like to ask the Chair whether the Chair would inform the House as to the settled procedure of the House in regard to the rotation of speakers. It is clear that there is a misunderstanding. Could the Chair tell us in clear, precise and comprehensive terms the procedure that has been in operation here for the past 40 years?
The people did not misunderstand.
The people decided.
(Interruptions.)
I am asking Deputy Desmond——
Deputies
Chair.
Would the Chairman be prepared to give me this information? It seems to be necessary for the continued orderly procedure of the House.
I do not want to bind the Chair to any such arrangement. The Chair calls Deputies as he sees fit.
That was not what the Chair said last week.
On a point of order, I understand that the Chair has recently ruled on this matter. I should be glad if the Chair would repeat that ruling now in full.
The Chair made it clear on that occasion. It is the duty and function of the Chair to give speakers from all parts of the House an opportunity to speak.
The Chair did not give us that opportunity here this evening.
You were not there.
(Interruptions.)
In view of the fact that, through no fault of the Ceann Comhairle, who was not in possession of correct information, namely, that a Labour Deputy offered at that time, does he not now think that, in order to preserve his authority in this House, he should reconsider his decision?
(Interruptions.)
Deputy Dowling is in possession and has been called by the Chair. I would point out that Deputies are wasting the time allocated to this motion.
I think they were kicked out.
On a point of order, a ruling was recently given by the Chair in relation to the rotation of speakers which involved a one, one, one rotation.
Not at all. The people decided otherwise.
Would the Chair state precisely what that ruling was in full?
Go back to the Fine Gael meeting.
(Interruptions.)
On a point of order, since this Dáil cannot continue to conduct its business in a proper fashion if the moral authority of the Chair is undermined, may I ask the Chair, in view of the circumstances outlined, to reconsider his decision? Parliament cannot continue if the authority of the Chair is undermined.
You were not here.
The authority of the Chair will be undermined if the decisions of the Chair are flagrantly unfair.
Deputy Cruise-O'Brien was the only person who sought to undermine the authority of the Chair.
(Interruptions.)
With further reference to the point of order which I have raised, and on which I seek a reply from the Chair, my information on the ruling recently given by the Chair is that speakers would be called on a one, one, one rotation. Am I correctly informed as to what the Chair said last week in this regard?
(Interruptions.)
I am dealing with this particular situation in which no Labour Deputy was offering——
Deputies
There were.
That is not true. There was a Labour Deputy offering.
Am I not in possession?
The Chair was misinformed.
(Interruptions.)
I want to know, in relation to my point of order, whether the Chair ruled recently on the one, one, one principle. I want to know, in the second place, whether the interpretation of that principle has been such as would preclude a situation arising in which, between two Fianna Fáil speakers, only one Opposition speaker was allowed to speak?
What rotation have you upstairs at the Fine Gael front bench meeting?
(Interruptions.)
I cannot see why Deputy FitzGerald is raising that point at this particular juncture.
(Interruptions.)
We have a situation where, following a Fianna Fáil speaker, there was a Fine Gael speaker and then a Labour Deputy offered. In those circumstances, according to the ruling the Chair gave last week, there was no alternative for the Acting Chairman but to call the Labour Deputy who had offered to speak.
This occurred in my absence.
I am quite aware of that fact.
The Chairman informed me that no Member of the Labour Party was present or offering and that he went to that side of the House.
(Interruptions.)
In fairness to the Acting Chairman, the Chair must have misunderstood him. He already was referring to a previous occasion when Deputy Dr. Byrne offered. What he said must have been incomplete. Nobody has challenged that, at the time Deputy Byrne sat down, somebody offered from the Labour benches at that point. At that stage, there had been one Opposition speaker from the Fine Gael Party following the previous Fianna Fáil speaker. In accordance with the one, one, one ruling, would the Chair not agree that, in those circumstances, the correct ruling should be to permit the Labour Party to speak, in accordance with the ruling of the Chair last week?
(Interruptions.)
It is quite clear that in this one, one rotation Deputy FitzGerald has in mind the Fine Gael front bench meeting which is going on at the moment.
It is perfectly obvious that this is an effort by Fine Gael to stop the debate on their motion.
(Interruptions.)
I am asking the Ceann Comhairle whether——
Deputies
Sit down.
(Interruptions.)
With reference to the point of order which I raised, I am asking the Chair to rule on the facts as he now knows them and on which there appears to have been a misunderstanding of a quite understandable character between the Chair and the Acting Chairman. I am asking the Chair whether, in those circumstances, the correct ruling would not have been for Deputy O'Connell to be called.
(Interruptions.)
The Deputy is disorderly in his criticism of the decision of the Chair. It may not be done.
Deputies
Sit down.
The Deputy may not criticise an order of the Chair.
This is in reference to my point of order. I am seeking a ruling——
I am giving the ruling. Deputy Dowling is in possession.
I want to speak on this motion which appears on the Order Paper in the name of some Fine Gael Deputies.
(Interruptions.)
On a point of order. I wish to raise a point of order.
I am in possession. I do not care if it is 11 o'clock; I shall insist on speaking on this motion concerning the plight of old age pensioners, a motion to which——
(Interruptions.)
On a point of order.
Deputy Tully is trying to put a point of order.
How many No. 1's did you get?
I am speaking on the motion in which Fine Gael are carrying out one of the most savage attacks on old age pensioners in any civilised country.
(Interruptions.)
On a point of order.
I will hear Deputy Tully on the last point of order I shall hear on this matter.
You made a statement, as Ceann Comhairle, that when Deputy Dr. Byrne sat down there was no Labour Deputy in the Labour Party benches and that, as a result, Deputy Dowling was called. That statement is incorrect. It has since been pointed out to the Chair that it is incorrect. I would ask the Ceann Comhairle, if he is not prepared to call on a Labour Deputy at this stage, at least to withdraw the statement that there was no Labour Deputy in the Labour Party benches.
(Interruptions.)
Order. The position is that when Deputy David Andrews sat down there was no Labour Deputy in the House——
(Interruptions.)
Nobody is denying that. Deputy Dowling was called after Deputy Dr. Byrne.
(Interruptions.)
I am on my feet and I am in possession. The Fine Gael Party and the Labour Party are tonight trying to prevent a discussion on social welfare as outlined in this motion in the names of Deputy Richie Ryan, Deputy Tom O'Donnell and Deputy Mrs. Hogan O'Higgins. They are doing so because they do not want to hear the truth about their own miserable contribution to social welfare and to the old age pensioners——
(Interruptions.)
On a point of order, would the Chair——
In view of the fact that Deputy FitzGerald is continuing to put a point of order after the Chair has ruled that no further points of order will be heard on this, I want to move the suspension of Deputy FitzGerald.
Nobody is listening to the Minister.
In view of the fact that Deputy FitzGerald is persisting in disobeying the Chair, I move that Deputy FitzGerald be suspended from the House——
(Interruptions.)
I am making a point of order.
(Interruptions.)
The Chair said he would hear, as the last point of order on this matter, Deputy Tully's point of order. In view of that fact and in view of the fact that Deputy FitzGerald continues to stay on his feet, in opposition to the ruling of the Chair, I move that Deputy FitzGerald be suspended from the House——
Deputies
Hear, hear.
I am waiting to put the point of order.
The Deputy is putting a point of order and the Minister does not even know it.
The Ceann Comhairle has already said that he was hearing the last point of order from Deputy Tully and, in view of Deputy FitzGerald's continued opposition to the Chair, I move that he be suspended from the House. I ask you to put that motion to the House.
I cannot accept a motion to suspend Deputy FitzGerald but, if he continues to interrupt the business of the House, I will have to ask him to leave.
I have not interrupted the business of the House except on points of order.
On a point of order——
The concentrated attack tonight on free speech and democracy by Fine Gael and Labour in order to try to prevent Members of this House from expressing their opinions on social welfare matters has been diabolical.
(Interruptions.)
Would Deputy Dowling move the adjournment?
These are the people who wanted to govern a few months ago but the people rejected them. The Reds were at it tonight in strength.
That will not wear any longer.
Debate adjourned.