asked the Minister for Social Welfare the percentage increase in social insurance contributions by insured persons and employers in the ten years of 1959-60 to 1969-70.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Social Insurance Contributions.
34.
On the basis of the latest estimate of income for 1969-70 from social insurance contributions by by insured persons and employers, the percentage increase is 444.
Could the Minister give separate amounts for employees and employers?
Not as percentages. The percentage increase for employers would be greater because only employers contribute to occupational injuries.
Cén fáth nár thug an tAire an t-eolas seo dúinn ar maidin? Bhí an t-eolas aige.
Marach gur theith an Teachta nuair a chuir mé in iúl go raibh an cruinniú sin ar siúl b'fhéidir go dtabharfainn dó é. Dá bhfanfadh sé d'fhéadfainn é a thabhairt dó ceart go leor.
Ní raibh an tAire dea-bhéasach a dhóthain chun é sin a dhéanamh.
Thug mé fógra don Teachta agus tá áthas orm a fheiceáil go raibh sé in am don chriunniú.
Thug an tAire an t-eolas eile dúinn, that the amount by which the benefits had increased was 150 per cent. Now we are told these charges have increased by 444 per cent.
No, not the charges, the total contributed by way of social insurance.
Cad í an difríocht?
The expenditure has increased by almost the same amount, by 394 per cent.
Is it not a fact that the employers' contribution is completely fictional in so far as he takes it back from the consumer anyway in the form of increased prices?
The same thing applies to the employees. The consumer, the taxpayer pays everything.
Would the Minister say if he feels any sense of achievement in view of the fact that current Government expenditure has declined from 19.8 per cent in 1959 to 14.3 per cent in 1969-70?
Unfortunately Deputy Desmond, like every other Deputy of the Labour Party, except Deputy Dr. O'Donovan, found it impossible to be present while I was concluding the debate on the Estimate for the Department of Social Welfare.
That is not true.
Yes, because you were up there seeing who would be kicked out next, and only I warned Deputy Dr. O'Donovan that he was likely to be an independent Deputy at this time of the day if he did not go up, he would have stayed here.
The Minister is an expert on the kicking out business.
If Deputy Desmond had found it possible to be here he would know I dealt comprehensively with that subject and pointed out that the percentage of State expenditure on social welfare is a meaningless figure, that the relevant figure is the percentage of the national income the Government spends on social welfare, this figure has increased from 6.4 per cent when the Deputy's party was in control of the Department of Social Welfare to 8.4 per cent in the current financial year, and this despite the fact that the percentage in 1956-57 was inflated because of the high level of unemployment and the low level of the national income, consequent on the handling of the country's affairs by the Opposition parties.
Has the Minister any particular sense of achievement in view of the decline of current Government expenditure?
This is developing into an argument; it is not a question.
I am putting it to the Minister that expenditure by the State on health, education and social welfare has declined from 38 per cent in 1959 to 35 per cent.
The Deputy is nearly as bad as Deputy FitzGerald in interpreting figures. The fact is that all expenditure on social welfare is by the State and all the money to finance it is compulsorily collected by the State——
We are spending less than we were ten years ago.
Some of it is collected by way of selective taxation on employers and workers and some from the general taxpayer. The percentage of the national income that the Government acquire and distribute in the form of social welfare and other benefits has increased from 6.4 of the national income to 8.4. This is despite the fact that the figure was inflated in 1956-57, despite the lower level of unemployment now and the correspondingly higher level of the national income. This is all due to Fianna Fáil.