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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 30 Apr 1970

Vol. 246 No. 3

Committee on Finance. - Resolution No. 3: General (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:
That it is expedient to amend the law relating to customs and inland revenue (including excise) and to make further provision in connection with finance.
—(The Taoiseach).

I wish to say a few words about various matters which have been discussed by Deputies. In regard to the Anglo-Irish Free Trade Area Agreement, this year can be regarded as the marginal year. It is the mid-year between the tariffs as they were at their apex and the situation that will exist when the tariffs are abolished. The tariffs on goods from England, which is our main source of supply, will be down to 25 per cent. I well remember after the war the hosiery duties group looked for a doubling of the tariff. They did not get the increase of 37½ per cent and 50 per cent for a period of about two years. I certainly got great pleasure from the fact that these people were no longer able to make such a great profit as they had made before the war.

We in this party believe that the effort which was put into establishing our light industries—the products of which I regard as equal to anything produced elsewhere—should not be thrown into the Irish Sea. From this year onwards the pressure is certainly going to be felt by all the small manufacturers. While the talk was going on about entering the EEC they did not take any part in it; they were making plenty of money, tariffs were high and they did not bother themselves unduly. I agree with Deputy Tully that we have now reached a situation in which this country is chock-a-block with British goods. Some of them are excellent goods. It is well known that when people become reasonably well off they always look for variety and this is particularly true from the woman's point of view. It is much easier to produce variety in clothing in a country like Britain than in a small country like ours. This factor is very important to women who do not like to buy articles of clothing which they know will be sold in mass quantities throughout Ireland and which, by virtue of the size of our country and the market available, inevitably means there will be much uniformity in style and type. It is much easier for a British manufacturer to distribute his products throughout that country and from the consumer's point of view this ensures a greater variety from which he may choose.

I have always been of the opinion that whatever defects there may have been in the free trade area agreement it certainly was much better for this country that we made that agreement rather than that we went into the EEC when discussions were in progress in 1951-52. To the best of my recollection, at that time only two people in this city spoke out publicly on this matter. One was Mr. David Hamilton, who produced a pamphlet on the subject, and I said a few words and also wrote about it in an article in the Irish Independent. I would not mind having this article reprinted now as an example of very accurate forecasting of what was about to happen. I am not often very accurate but at least on that occasion, perhaps because I had given much thought to the subject, I was quite on the mark.

Our farmers were in favour of entering the EEC. However, they woke up and when Mr. Richard Deasy was president of the NFA they became aware of the fact that the benefits would not, in fact, be nearly as good as they had expected. At the moment only 30 per cent of our people are engaged in farming and this makes the problem all the more difficult. If we take the value created in this country in relation to exports, our agricultural exports are still immensely more important than our industrial exports. Government Ministers frequently talk about our industrial exports exceeding our agricultural exports but they never tell us that half our industrial exports are made up of imports because raw materials are brought in and the finished product is made here. In this connection I might say that in the Shannon Free Airport development area imports constitute three-quarters of the products finally exported.

I am not decrying what the industrialists have done; indeed many of the companies have made remarkable progress. However, we ought to have some sense of reality because the percentage of imports in our agricultural exports is negligible—about 9 or 10 per cent. Therefore, our agricultural exports are of much greater importance to the economy than our industrial exports. I take it that the day will shortly come when our industrial exports will be greater than our agricultural exports and this I would welcome.

I should like to say a few words about the NIEC report on prices and incomes. The original report had certain views and now we have the NIEC report No. 27 on incomes and prices policy. In comparing one report with the other I noticed a diminution in the verbiage. All it suggests really is that a body be set up which it is hoped will do some good by impressing on the people the desirability of all agreeing to moderate their claims.

As I said to the Minister for Industry and Commerce earlier, he wants to change human nature and he will not succeed. If this is the only answer the Government have to the problem of inflation, that they expect people who make claims for wages, usually after an increase in the cost of living, to moderate their claims, the Government are on a bad bet.

The members of the NIEC are distinguished people in their own fields. Presumably a small group of them write up the report and then the whole 28 of them sign the report unanimously. This is the first time there has been a minority report. It is not exactly a minority report but there is an addendum by Percy H. Greer, Charles Cuffe and Daniel McAuley, who, I think, are the representatives of industry on the body and are nominated by the Federated Union of Employers. They say:

We are in broad agreement with the general principles of an incomes and prices policy as outlined in this report.

So are we all in agreement with the general principles.

We are concerned, however, about the possible effectiveness of the proposals as they relate to the methods to be applied in determining changes in contractual incomes. We consider that these proposals would make a greater contribution to the overall objective of achieving a closer relationship between the growth of money incomes and the growth of output if they were accompanied by arrangements which would assist in containing industrial disputes.

Then they go on to develop that idea, but it is not really a minority report. In all there have been 28 such unanimous reports from 28 people. This must be the greatest case of unanimity ever, because normally you would be lucky to get 18 or 19 people out of 28 to agree if they are considering important problems.

Nearly as good as Fianna Fáil.

It is like its parent, in the words of a well-known politician, another monolith. Talking about prices and incomes, I should like to refer to what was only mentioned quietly, that is, the high level of profits of public companies in 1968-69. Of course, there was no round of wage increases in that year though there was considerable wage drift. The fact is that the price control arrangements at present are either not genuine, in the sense they have no teeth in them, or alternatively, there is no heart in them because the Government do not believe in price control. By the way, I am not saying the Government are necessarily wrong there. I do not know positively, but certainly if you have major inflation you do want price control. The best example of all is the rumpus which has been going on now for so many weeks in Cement, Ltd. Anyone who does not realise the dirty conditions in which workers operate in these cement factories learnt a lesson when they passed through O'Connell Street as I did by accident, although the worst results were over by then, and saw that every car that passed through got covered in a greyish kind of dust, and it was no harm to bring home to the people of Dublin what conditions must be like if you work in a cement factory.

That company with a new manufacturing licence had a net profit last year of £1.6 million and the cost of this £7 per week increase to all workers would have been £250,000, that is, not quite one-sixth of their net profit. Of course Cement, Ltd. may be foreigners, may be from Denmark and so on, but I do not think people who are making this kind of profit will engage in the kind of rumpus they are in unless there is some other force behind it. There is the general idea that they were urged to stand up to this situation by the Federated Union of Employers and by the Government on the ground that they would be pace setting.

I do not believe, as the civil servants do, that everybody who does the same work can get the same pay. The man with a 100-acre farm in west Cork will not make as much money as the man with a 100-acre farm in east Cork and neither of them will make as much money as the man with 100 acres in County Meath, and the man with 100 acres in Connemara, poor fellow, will be lucky if he can graze a goat on it. It is no use believing that you can have the same rewards for everybody. When I was a young man in the city I do not remember the workers here ever complaining because those who worked in the Guinness company were paid about 1½ times what they were earning. The attitude was: "Lucky fellow to be in the Guinness company." This civil service notion is quite false.

I thought that was socialism.

I will meet the Deputy on the socialism point. The solution would be to pull down the profits. You have the price control machinery.

Is that the policy of socialism, equality for all?

Contrary to pulling down the profits, what did this Government do? After making a profit of £1.6 million Cement, Ltd. were given an increase of 15/- a ton for cement earlier this year. I am not arguing about it. I do not know whether it was right or not.

There will be competition.

One of my colleagues told me that down in west Cork recently bags of cement were on the market at 30/-, that is, for a hundredweight. If you want cement to do a job you will pay the 30/- for it. You saw the complaints in the north about the situation and that they were thinking of putting an embargo on cement because it was interfering with their business up there, so apparently a fair amount of it is getting through.

I want to come back for a few minutes to the question of overall Government strategy which I believe shows a wrong sense of priorities. There are in this capital Budget this year £23 million for aeroplanes. When the Higher Education Authority put up a long-term expenditure programme for £24 million for universities and higher technological colleges, the Government cut it to £15 million. Again I am not saying the Government are wrong, but how do you compare that £24 million for education with £23 million for jumbo jets which, judging by the experience of the past week across the water, are not all they are cracked up to be. One accident can happen to anybody or any aeroplane, but they are too numerous to be comfortable, and have occurred on three separate occasions. Quite apart from the fabulous investment of money in it—£23 million— it does not suggest that they are without faults. You had to get in line. The people who run Aer Lingus are never backward in getting into line. It is not unknown in the case of a much simpler piece of machinery, a motorcar, that it is not a very good idea to buy a new type of motorcar the minute it comes on the market, that it is just as well to let six or 12 months go to make sure that it will not prove to have some inherent defect in it and it well may be, for all I know, that these jumbo jets have some inherent defect in them. I will finish on this note——

Good man.

As I said to the former Parliamentary Secretary, some people are incorrigible. The present Budget reminds me of a story in the autobiography of Benvenuto Cellini. Benvenuto Cellini was an artist of the Renaissance period in Italy who wandered around into France also. He specialised in making nice articles of silver with enamel on it and made quite a good income. He tells a story of how he had an enemy and the fellow was bothering him a bit. "So, I met him and I cut off his leg and he troubled me no more". This Government have done much the same thing in this Budget in this 2½ per cent turnover tax. "I cut off his leg and he troubled me no more".

The Deputy should be a retreat master.

It is a very apt illustration of what this Budget is like. The public, their leg having been cut off, will trouble the Government no more.

We know quite well that there is not the slightest chance of anything that would be said from these benches having any effect on this Budget. The very latest group of people who would be likely to listen to what is said in Parliament are the civil servants in the Department of Finance and in the Office of the Revenue Commissioners. There is a decided element of theft in this Budget. The Minister is stealing the bread and butter off the tables of the lower paid workers. It fits in with the decision not to raise the school leaving age to 15 this year. The Minister for Education did not give us any just reason why this was not done. It is not to be done for two years. How many children were involved?—6,000 —1 per cent of the total number of school going children. He talked about setting up a number of committees. This Government proliferate committees and they are going to proliferate more of them, obviously, judging by the provision made for them in the Vote for the Office of the Minister for Finance.

The whole attitude of the Government towards the workers who are poorly paid is illustrated by the 5/- a month that is given in children's allowances. It would not pay the turnover tax. The Government are fond of saying that they did certain things, that they gave an allowance for the first child of 10/- a month at that time in order to pay for the 2½ per cent turnover tax. If 10/- a month was required in 1963-64 to pay for the 2½ per cent turnover tax, why is it now 5/- a month?

That is on top of the £2 5s 0d for the third child.

The Deputy does not get the point.

I see the point all right.

I am making a net point that if it cost 10/- a month at that time to pay the 2½ per cent turnover tax why is it only going to cost 5/- a month now to pay the 2½ per cent turnover tax although prices have gone up in the meantime?

What was the children's allowance in 1963-64?

What does it matter what it was? The Minister for Social Welfare gave me an explanation in reply to a question a few weeks ago. I do not believe in giving a child's allowance for the first child. I would transfer the money to the large families. The Minister's explanation was that it was done at the time to meet the cost of the turnover tax. It cannot be right both ways, because prices have gone up in the meantime. I noticed that this 5s was mentioned and care was taken to muddy the waters as much as possible so as to give the impression that it was the same as the 17s 6d that the contributory old age pensioners got, which of course it is not, because it is 5s a month—it is not 5s a week. If it was 5s a week you would see John O'Donovan giving the Government a pat on the back for it. I certainly would. Even if they gave that extra 5s a week only to the fourth and subsequent children I would say: "Good men. You are on the right line. Now you are going in the right direction, even if you are not going too fast."

For a family of eight or nine children it is not bad at all.

The Deputy is not in earnest—eight times 5s, less two—it is 30s a month—1s a day.

It is 5s on top of £2.

The Government's record is extremely bad in this because it did not increase children's allowances until the election was looming up last year and the allowances would still be where they were only for last year's election.

That is all wrong.

It is not all wrong. This is a fact. They had remained stationary for the best part of seven or eight years, to the best of my recollection.

This is a non-election year.

The Deputy's party never gave them anything when they were in office. There were no children's allowances.

I will tell you what we did. We stabilised the cost of living by means of food subsidies and the minute you fellows came in you abolished them. You abolished them straightaway.

They took them off six weeks after the election was over after promising solemnly on every platform that they would not be touched.

That is right.

What you did was to abolish the people out of the country.

Not alone was it stated on the platforms but it was printed and posted up all around Dublin city. The posters said "They say we are going to abolish the food sub-sidies"—was not this the way it ran—"but then they never tell the truth about us". This was the line. They never tell the truth.

Six weeks it took Mr. MacEntee to do it.

My own opinion, and it is believed by many people, is that in every country where there is a sizeable number of poorly paid workers —this would not apply in a country like the United States; certainly not in the ordinary parts of the United States; it might apply in certain parts of the old South—there is a case for subsidising one main foodstuff. What is the position here? The staff of life here was bread and it still is the case, in spite of consumption going down, that bread is the main foodstuff. Whenever I go into a large family in the city I notice the kiddies are all eating bread and scrape, as it is now called—bread and butter or bread and margarine. What is the price going to be? The price of the loaf one of these days will be three times what it was when the "awful" second inter-Party Government left office—the awful Government that could do nothing right.

You increased the price by reducing the size of the loaf and charging the same price—the little men with the little loaves.

Mr. J. Lenehan

What size did you make the loaf that time? We are pals. We never fight.

I will tell you. It was thought up by the present Secretary to the Department of Finance and myself.

Mr. J. Lenehan

Good man yourself. I thought it was you who thought it up.

What did we do? We altered the law so that the loaf could be weighed only when it was leaving the bakery because as the law existed the weights and measures inspector could at any time look at a loaf in a shop and if it did not weigh the proper weight the person selling it could be prosecuted. It was a better way of doing it and the proof that it was a better way was that the bakers went berserk. I spoke to a man who was running the best bakery in this country, the late Deputy Paddy Crotty, and I asked him: "What is the position about all this?" And he looked at me and said: "Look, John, none of them is going bankrupt." Naturally I did not want to bankrupt any baker by what was, in effect, a device to enable the price of bread to be stabilised. It worked and the proof that it worked was the way in which Deputy Martin Corry used to talk here about our having taken a slice off the loaf.

(Interruptions.)

If he said that once he said it a hundred times. We kept the price of bread at ninepence for the 2 lb loaf. It is now 2s and very likely it will be 2s 3d.

(Interruptions.)

Not by bread alone does Deputy Lenehan live. He can afford other things. Not by bread alone does Deputy Davern live. A person of my age is well advised not to eat too much bread. My withers are unwrung.

(Interruptions.)

Would Deputies allow Deputy O'Donovan to make his speech. Deputy Lenehan must cease interrupting.

If I might use the word used so frequently by the Minister for Industry and Commerce earlier today, this Budget is a "slick" operation. When it first came out the majority of the people heaved a big sigh of relief. Give them a few weeks and they will sigh for a different reason. Already the small shopkeepers are extremely concerned. Watch it work its way through the economy. Before this Dáil adjourns for the summer we will know all about it.

I believe this Budget is one of the very worst we have ever had. It is not as bad as the Budget that was introduced by Deputy MacEntee, the famous Budget of 1st April, 1952. Mark you, it runs it close enough. The 1952 Budget was in a class by itself. It is ancient history now. That was the Budget that put up the price of sugar by 50 per cent, the price of tea and butter by 50 per cent and the price of the pint by 60 per cent from 11d. to 1s 4d. I am sorry the Minister for Finance is not here though I did say this to him when he was here: The fact of the matter is the Minister for Finance is trying to float off his problems on a sea of inflation. Estimates of receipts and expenditure show the most remarkable figure ever; surplus or deficit on capital account £9,632 million. This is the most remarkable figure ever. As Dr. Ryan used to say when he was Minister for Finance, revenue is buoyant. Revenue was never so buoyant as it was in the last 12 months. It will be still more buoyant this year because the yield from income tax will go up from £89.7 million to £110½ million this year. Of course, they are not the same pounds.

Rising standards.

The Parliamentary Secretary means making the £ more elastic, printing more of them.

The Deputy did a good job for us anyway.

The Parliamentary Secretary got a very rough answer in the two recent by-elections. We lost the one in South-West. Had we won it I think the Parliamentary Secretary and his colleagues would be on their way out of office now.

(Interruptions.)

Would Deputies allow Deputy O'Donovan to make his speech?

In respect of the figures given to us today by the Minister for Industry and Commerce I believe our economy is losing way. It is like a ship coming in to port, moving apparently slowly but still going so fast that it will inevitably hit the pier and damage both itself and the pier. There are no "slick" solutions to serious problems. There is one solution. I have emphasised it and I will go on emphasising it right through. In this volume of estimates there is a solution. The idea of getting the banks to create £50 million of credit again this year for the Government is the most ludicrous operation ever carried out by a Minister for Finance. The fact is one could get that £50 million out of this volume and a week after it had been taken out nobody would miss it, but the economy would be improved no end. The pretentious talk we hear: it was found impossible to reduce it.

What capital services should be cut?

When the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance was not here I went systematically through the Vote for the Department of Finance in the Book of Estimates. Does the Parliamentary Secretary want me to go through it again item by item? There is £¾ million extra in that Vote which is just so much slush and rubbish.

(Interruptions.)

Deputy Lenehan must cease interrupting.

I am an economist who believes in economy, in careful housekeeping.

(Interruptions.)

Deputies will not be allowed to keep on interrupting. If Deputies insist on doing so the Chair will have to ask them to leave the House.

The Minister for Finance proposes to increase the staff of his Department by 71 heads this year from 317 to 388. One clerical officer could do more in the way of economy than the whole blooming lot of them put together. I do not mind how much they write or what modern macro economic reports they produce. Anyone who tried to compete with them or answer back would be a fool. The other item is the £200,000 for the Irish Decimal Currency Board. For what? For fees, publicity, costs and incidental expenses to facilitate the changeover to decimal currency by familiarising the public with the new currency. The most stupid idiot in the country will recognise the new currency immediately he meets it.

If he is lucky enough to meet it.

At this stage it is difficult to find something that has not already been discussed, but there are certain points made by speakers upon which I feel I must comment. My general reaction to the Budget is one of disappointment. This is the first Budget of the seventies. It is the first Budget introducing the era in which we are led to believe we will be projected into the European Economic Community. For that reason this Budget is disappointing. It contains nothing new in relation to economic and social problems and contains very little evidence of new thinking or new approaches to such problems which we have had for a long time. Certainly, neither the Budget nor the Minister's speech attempted to generate new thinking. The Budget speech certainly does not release the new dynamic which is now so vitally necessary if we are to gear our economy to the position in which we will be able to reap whatever advantages EEC might offer.

In my opinion this Budget is very similar to all the Budgets we have had in the past decade. It tells the same tale of more taxation, more borrowing and more spending. The most disappointing aspect of it and of the Minister's speech is the manner in which it has treated what should be regarded as our major national industry, agriculture. In relation to agriculture the Minister said— I am quoting from volume 245, column 1733 of the Official Report where the Minister said:

The high contribution of agriculture to the development of the national economy is fully recognised by the Government.

He goes on to say:

It is expressed in concrete fashion in the increasing amount of State expenditure in relation to agriculture which last year reached the record level of £90.5 million.

He then goes on to acknowledge rather belatedly the gap in agricultural incomes vis-à-vis other sections of the community.

Other speakers in this debate have referred to agricultural incomes and the various problems of agriculture. In my opinion Irish agriculture today, on the eve of our entry to EEC, is in a sad plight because of the sorry history of Government blundering in relation to it over the past decade and particularly since the introduction of the Second Programme for Economic Expansion in 1964. At that time many people commented on the manner in which the Government looked on agriculture and its potential and the manner in which they forecast the contribution of agriculture to the economy as we entered the seventies. The great blunder made in the Second Programme was in fixing totally unrealistic targets for agriculture. This was the subject of comment by many agricultural experts and by economists in general at the time. The low targets fixed for agriculture indicated clearly the thinking of the Government in regard to agriculture and its role in the development of the economy.

A second blunder was made about that time with the establishment of the National Industrial and Economic Council when no representation was given to agriculture. Each year that has passed since provides evidence of the great mistake made in excluding agriculture from NIEC. As we now look at the latest, long-awaited document entitled "Irish Agriculture and Fisheries in the European Economic Community" circulated to Deputies last night—I had no chance of studying it in the depth that is desirable but I have read it from cover to cover —and look at the prospects for agriculture in EEC we realise very strikingly the wasted years of the 1960s, the wasted years of stopgap measures, of short-term, short-sighted policies in regard to agriculture, policies in many cases dictated by political expediency at a particular time. This document is a terrible indictment of the Government's agricultural policy during the sixties. It is an indictment in two ways because, while we have had a breathing space of almost a decade in which to gear our economy for ultimate entry to EEC, we have wasted those years particularly in relation to agriculture.

I do not care what the Minister for Finance said in his Budget speech and the claims he made that the Government had recognised the importance of agriculture in the economy. All the evidence of the past ten years, culminating in this production, is clear proof of the manner in which the Government have fallen down in their handling of this most important industry. Now that we are entering EEC, what have we? We have a document which sets out to state the position of agriculture in EEC. I was not impressed by this. I doubt if any average, intelligent farmer who is prominently identified with a local branch of his agricultural organisation would learn anything new from it. Nevertheless, it states the likely prospects and when we look at the prospects for dairying and livestock, for sheep and other lines of agricultural production when we enter EEC, and when we look at the present position after 13 years of Fianna Fáil rule, we find, despite what the Minister for Finance has said regarding State aid to agriculture, a panic situation because of surplus milk production. We have had millions of gallons of skim milk poured down the drain and Irish butter being exported——

An agricultural debate is not in order on the Budget.

I should be the last to argue with the Chair but I thought I would be allowed to refer to agricultural policy in general.

In general, in so far as the Budget is concerned with providing finance for agriculture.

Am I permitted to refer to the Common Market?

The Common Market is not an issue on the Financial Statement.

I shall try to keep within your ruling but I am building up my case. I had in mind what the Minister for Finance and other Deputies said, including the ridiculous suggestions made by one or two Deputies that farmers should pay income tax. I want to show the position of Irish agriculture today and how the Government, despite what the Minister said, have fallen down on the job.

I suppose I had better approach it by keeping to the Minister's Budget speech. I will be on safer ground there. The Minister announced that he is giving 1d a gallon to creamery milk suppliers in respect of the first 7,000 gallons of milk. This is supposed to be a great concession. It amounts to 11s a week. It will not do much to narrow the income gap between the agricultural and the non-agricultural sectors of the economy.

He also announced other incentives for beef production. He referred to lamb, sheep and pigs. We have surplus milk production today, and a state of panic. Irish butter is being sold at 1s a lb abroad. Many of our bacon factories are able to remain in full production only because of the fact that wholesale pig smuggling is taking place across the Border. I defy contradiction of that because I have actually seen the trucks bringing the pigs from the north down to the southern bacon factories.

The Minister said that steps are now being taken to increase sheep numbers. This is another sector of the agricultural industry which has been sadly neglected by the Government, because between 1965 and 1969, sheep numbers fell from 5,000,000 to under 4,000,000. This is a drastic decline in sheep numbers over the past four years. In this document to which I referred, "Irish Agriculture in the EEC", in which the implications of EEC membership in regard to sheep are considered, it is stated that the prospects for sheep producers here, following on Ireland's membership of an enlarged community, are somewhat difficult to assess but nevertheless they appear promising. This is a line of production which offers good prospects in the EEC and yet, over the past four years, the Government have allowed sheep numbers to decline by over 1,000,000.

The Minister also announced that he is proposing to improve the beef incentive scheme. He is now introducing a graduated scale and changing the present grant of £12 for all qualified cows to a scale of £21 for the first qualifying cow, £19 for the second and £16 for each cow thereafter. This improvement in the beef incentive scheme has come as a result of considerable agitation by various farming organisations. It is a fact, and we have got to face it, that if we want to reduce milk output, or reduce the amount of milk going to the creameries, we must give an incentive to the farmers to change their system of farming from the production of creamery milk to the rearing of calves.

This new range of incentives is a big improvement on the previous flat rate of £12. Nevertheless I am wondering if it will achieve what the Minister is setting out to achieve, or hopes it will achieve. Under this scheme a registered commercial milk supplier to a creamery, even if he is sending the milk of one cow only, cannot qualify. I have suggested—and I understand that various farming organisations have suggested—that some means should have been devised whereby large creamery milk suppliers could divert part of their milk output into beef production and that a farmer with, say, 40 cows, could put ten rearing calves and qualify for a grant in respect of those ten. I understand there are certain administrative difficulties in the scheme.

I do not believe that a policy of reducing milk production is wise. I said this in the House before and I say it again. In the light of what we can read in this document it is a bad policy. There is no doubt whatsoever that in the EEC there will be greatly improved prospects for dairy products despite what the position may be now in regard to over-production.

There are a number of other minor concessions to agriculture in this Budget. Taking the various concessions that the Minister has made to the agricultural industry I regard them as being—as I described the Government's agricultural policy over the last decade—short-term measures and stop-gap policies, with a sudden swing from milk to beef. Perhaps next year we will be going from milk to beef again.

I was really getting into my stride in regard to the agricultural industry but the Leas-Cheann Comhairle very rightly called me to order. The main point I wanted to make was that it is a great tragedy, now that we are thinking in terms of membership of a larger European community of nations and looking at the prospects which membership of that community will offer to the agricultural industry, that we should have had over the past decade such a hopeless agricultural policy as we have had.

The gap between farming and non-farming incomes was referred to by the Minister and by a number of speakers. One of the results of the Government's agricultural policy over the past decade was that the gap between the incomes of the agricultural and non-agricultural sectors has been widening all the time. For that reason it really makes me see red—and I do not care from what side of the House it comes—when I hear a Deputy advocate that farmers should pay income tax. It is time to call a spade a spade and to tell those people where to get off.

It is not without significance that in the past 48 hours two Deputies have advocated that. Both of them are urban Deputies. One is a purely academic economist. I say that with all due respect to him. I studied under him for a number of years. I want to put this in its proper perspective. There is no doubt whatsoever that the income of the agricultural community has been declining in relation to the income of other sections of the community.

The Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries has acknowledged at meetings with the NFA and other organisations that a figure of £20 million would be necessary and stated publicly that he would look for £14 million from the Minister for Finance to bridge the gap. We all know what happened. Deputy Haughey was unable to give the money. Anyone who has any knowledge of practical farming will know that the vast majority of the farmers of this country would be better off financially if they sold their farms, cattle, stock and all their assets and invested the money in some giltedged security. I defy contradiction on that. Deputy Dr. O'Donovan and Deputy Desmond are forgetting, when advocating the taxing of farmers, that in many cases the more progressive farmers who have increased their output have done so by means of substantial bank loans or loans from the Agricultural Credit Corporation and that dairy farmers—who Deputy Dr. O'Donovan referred to as having a very easy life where all they had to do was watch the grass growing——

The farmers are in the "red" like the doctors.

——forgetting how hard they work. I am prepared to defend the agricultural community. I do not care where the attack comes from. The people who talk about the farmers "getting away with murder" and mention large sums being given by the Government to subvent agriculture are forgetting, particularly in relation to dairy farmers, that they have to work seven days a week. The cows must be milked every day, including Sunday. I challenge anybody to produce convincing arguments which will give substance to the suggestion that the farmers should be liable for income tax. I do not believe this can be done. In volume 245, No. 11, column 1735, the Minister states:

Many farmers, particularly smaller farmers, are still largely dependent on creamery milk. These are faced with increasing wage and feed costs. To improve their position, the Government have decided to provide an additional 1d per gallon on up to 7,000 gallons a year for each supplier. This increase will apply as from 1st April, 1970. The cost to the Exchequer this year is £1 million.

This 1d a gallon on the first 7,000 gallons is only a fraction of the increased costs which the creamery milk suppliers have had to meet in recent years. It represents approximately £29 11s. This is absolutely ridiculous from the point of view of compensating the dairy farmers for the increased costs they have to meet and also for the reduced price which they have had to take for their milk. There was no economic outlet for skimmed milk. Farmers had to take 2d per gallon for it and in some cases got no payment. The farmers had the alternative of taking the skim milk home and pouring it down the drain. This 1d per gallon is a ridiculously small measure of support for a most important sector of the economy.

There is no provision in the Budget for increased incentives towards the production of quality milk which is recognised as being a vital factor in gearing the dairy industry to meet the challenge which lies ahead under EEC conditions. The Minister makes certain references to the creation of a viable agricultural industry in this country. It is an extraordinary situation that in this first Budget of 1970 we have these small provisions for agriculture. Most of them are of a slap-dash nature. They have been brought in through panic, especially the beef incentive scheme. We also have an incentive to sheep producers because of the drastic reduction in the number of sheep in recent years.

There is no indication of Government thinking about what has been known as the average family holding in this country. Would such a farm be viable in the future? There is no evidence in the recent production by the Government on agriculture in the EEC regarding the possible viability of the present structure of the Irish agricultural holdings. Is Deputy Seán Flanagan, Minister for Lands, correct in his assessment of the situation or is Deputy Blaney, Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries, correct? There is a wide divergence of viewpoint in relation to their thinking not merely on the economic problems of rural Ireland but also in relation to the social problems. It would appear that Deputy Seán Flanagan is correct. Examples are given in the publication mentioned of what is considered to be the necessary minimum size for farms. Forty to 60 cows are considered necessary for a dairy farm which would indicate approximately a 70-acre holding.

As I said at the outset, we are contemplating entry to the EEC, which undoubtedly offers certain advantages for agriculture, yet the Government do not know where they are going. There is no evidence of new thinking, of their getting to grips with the realities of the situation we are facing. I only hope that before we get down to discussing and negotiating our entry the Government will realise the appalling mistakes they have made during the last decade and that steps will be taken to rectify the situation so that we can enter the Common Market with a realistic agricultural policy designed to secure the maximum return from the additional opportunities that will present themselves.

There is another sector of the economy to which I wish to refer at this time and on it I wish to express disappointment at the fact that there is no reference whatsoever in the Minister's statement, except possibly a small one in relation to the Gaeltacht, to the tourist industry—a most important industry which has shown great growth in recent years and which has tremendous potential for further development. As I have said, I was disappointed that the Book of Estimates did not reveal that the Government intend to make any extra money available for tourism during this financial year.

There was a situation recently which necessitated the introduction of a Supplementary Estimate for £½ million to enable Bord Fáilte to pay grants due to hoteliers and other tourist interests which had undertaken projects qualifying for grants. Bord Fáilte were in the invidious position of being unable to pay these grants because they had not the money to do so. Then the Minister for Transport and Power brought in the Supplementary Estimate for £500,000 but it was well known at that time that the outstanding grants due by Bord Fáilte amounted to £750,000.

As far as I know, there is to be no extra subvention this year for the tourist industry. Again, as I stated in relation to Government policy on agriculture, the policy in relation to tourism is difficult to figure out. This is an industry which now is netting almost £100 million annually. It has colossal, direct and indirect earnings. It is well known that important tourist projects in various parts of the country are held up because of money shortage, and I have particularly in mind the project for the development of Kilkee under the resort development programme of Bord Fáilte. All the plans had been sanctioned but when everything was ready Bord Fáilte had not the money.

There is an extra 9 per cent this year.

Despite appeals to the Minister, both at Question Time and during debates in the House, despite the colossal Budget, despite the extra taxation, there is not one single shilling, as far as I can find out, for the tourist industry.

Bord Fáilte are getting an extra 9 per cent.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
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