asked the Taoiseach if at any stage he received any information from Interpol or other agency outside the State in relation to arms import smuggling; and, if so, the nature and date of such information.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Arms Smuggling.
1.
The answer is "No".
Did any information from security agents abroad arrive in this country to corresponding agents here?
I do not investigate the correspondence or the information exchanged between security agents in this country and others. I am saying very specifically that the only information I received, and on which I acted, came through our own security agents.
The Taoiseach has not answered me specifically. Can he tell me whether any information came from any foreign security agencies to our security personnel here in reference to arms importations?
There may well have been information but I was acting only on information I got directly myself. I think it is quite common that information on matters of this nature is exchanged between security forces of one country and another. I am saying categorically that I acted only on the information I received from our own security forces. I got no information from any outside security forces.
Is information forwarded automatically in classified top-security reports, for example? Are they automatically furnished to the Taoiseach from our security personnel?
They are not.
2.
asked the Taoiseach whether certain Ministers of State were under security surveillance; the nature of such arrangements; when they were put into operation; and by whom.
3.
asked the Taoiseach what legal action is open to him or may be contemplated by the Government in respect of the ex-Ministers and others alleged to be involved in the recent arms smuggling episode.
4.
asked the Taoiseach when he first received information about arms import smuggling; and the nature and source of the information.
5.
asked the Taoiseach what steps he proposes to take to tighten up security arrangements with the view of avoiding further activities in arms smuggling.
6.
asked the Taoiseach if he intends to furnish to the country complete details of the arms smuggling episode either by means of public inquiry or otherwise.
7.
asked the Taoiseach if he is a position to state how the purchase of the arms attempted to be smuggled was negotiated and the source of the money for the purchase.
8.
asked the Taoiseach when he first instructed Irish security forces to begin investigations of the question of illegal importation of arms into this country.
9.
asked the Taoiseach if his attention has now been drawn to the statement issued by a former Army officer (name supplied); if so, whether he is still satisfied with the explanation given by the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries; and if he is satisfied, whether he intends having action taken against this ex-Army Officer for issuing a misleading statement.
10.
asked the Taoiseach whether inquiries have been initiated to ascertain any involvement of civil servants in the Department of Finance, Revenue Commissioners, Department of Defence and other State Departments in the attempt to illegally import arms into this country.
With your permission, a Cheann Comhairle, I propose to take Questions Nos. 2 to 10 together.
As I indicated in my statement to this House on Saturday, I have given therein as full an account as I can concerning these matters in view of the restrictions imposed by security aspects and the fact that I have sent relevant documents to the Attorney General.
Does the Taoiseach intend to make any alteration in the existing arrangements? He has admitted that our security personnel do not report to him directly. Does he intend, in the future, to arrange that classified top-secret material will be furnished to him directly as well as to the appropriate Minister?
I indicated in the course of my reply on Saturday last— as I am sure the Deputy will see if he refers to it—that I have ensured that an attempted importation of arms would not succeed. I have since discussed the matter with the newly-appointed Ministers for Justice and Defence.
May I take it from the Taoiseach, therefore, that in future a copy of all information of a top priority nature in regard to security matters that come to any Department of State here will simultaneously be received by the Taoiseach?
I have ensured with the Ministers concerned that any information of the type to which the Deputy refers will be made known to me.
The Taoiseach said "the Ministers concerned". Has he ensured with the agencies concerned, as distinct from the Ministers concerned? The whole difficulty that has arisen here is because of problems with Ministers.
I have given instructions to the Ministers to ensure that they be kept fully informed of all material matters.
Would the Taoiseach not think it wise to arrange with the agencies concerned to communicate directly with the Taoiseach—and that he should arrange that directly with them?
I do not think that is necessary at this stage, so long as I can be assured that they will communicate matters of importance to the Ministers concerned and that they, in turn, will communicate to me.
Does the Taoiseach not agree that the whole problem has arisen because the Ministers concerned did not communicate with him?
Does the Taoiseach still believe that the evidence he has submitted to the Attorney General is still not—in his opinion and, I presume, in the opinion of his Department—legal evidence?
I should prefer to leave that to the Attorney General. In any event, I shall be dealing with the matter again this evening.
Arising out of Question No. 2, to which a specific reply was not given, can the Taoiseach say if he or the Minister for Justice has personal knowledge of each individual to whom any payment was made out of Secret Service moneys and if he has personal knowledge of the exact purpose for which each such individual payment was made?
I have not got such personal knowledge. The Secret Service moneys are voted by this House. Their disposal is not disclosed. Ministers who have access to these funds make requisitions of the Minister for Finance who, in turn, requests of these Ministers whether the Ministers are satisfied that the purposes for which the moneys are required are necessary. The disposal of these moneys through the proper channels is never investigated further. Otherwise, Secret Service funds would have no meaning.
What Ministers have access to the Secret Service funds?
Normally, the Minister for Justice, the Minister for Defence, the Minister for External Affairs and I am not absolutely certain whether other Ministers from time to time may have access.
I think the Taoiseach should be able to give the Dáil that information.
I shall check that during the course of the afternoon.
May we take it that the Taoiseach will give full information on that point when he is replying this evening?
I cannot give full information as to the disposal of the Secret Service funds.
Will the Taoiseach be able to give this House information as to the Ministers and availability of this fund in the months preceding the crisis?
I shall check that.
Is the Taoiseach serious when he says he did not check with the security officers here where they had got their information? Surely the Taoiseach is aware that it did come, in the beginning, from MI5 and MI6 to his own security officers?
Since my investigations started, I know that there was contact with other security forces. I am saying specifically that, up to the time I got my information, I got no information from any source other than the one at our own disposal. I know that there is, and always has been, contact between security forces in different countries.
Would the Taoiseach not admit that he knew, ten minutes ago, when he did not answer Deputy Hogan's question and told him a half-truth?
Would the Deputy enlarge on that? This allegation of "half-truth" has been bandied about.
The Taoiseach told Deputy Hogan that he, the Taoiseach, did not know if there was any communicating with anybody——
I am speaking in reference to the information on which I acted.
The Taoiseach now knows.
I know they have contact on many matters.
When did information first come to our own services here from foreign agents?
I cannot answer that because I do not know.
Did it come a month ago?
I do not know. I acted immediately on information conveyed to me. That is all I was concerned with.
The general impression amongst the public is that this information had been coming in for some time. I think it would be desirable if the Taoiseach, when replying to the debate this evening, would tell the House whether this information had been coming in for months.
Would this mean that the Minister to whom the Secret Service was reporting was in possession of facts and information relating to this matter months before the Taoiseach was aware of it? Is it a fact that a member of the Cabinet was aware of the complicity of other members of the Cabinet some months before the Taoiseach?
I do not believe that the Ministers to whom the Secret Service would report would have possession of such information months before——
Were they keeping this information to themselves?
The Deputy is asking questions which I find it very difficult to answer. I am confining my answers to the question posed by Deputy Hogan about the information which I got and on which I acted.
Does the Taoiseach seriously say that the Secret Service in this country have no superior Minister to report to?
Yes, they have indeed.
Who is the Minister?
In so far as the Army is concerned it is the Minister for Defence and in the case of the Garda, it is the Minister for Justice.
So that the former Minister for Justice who is now no longer in the Cabinet and the former Minister for Defence may have been aware of information some time before the Taoiseach of the implication of other members of the Cabinet in relation to the smuggling of arms?
All these matters are at present being investigated.
Does this investigation include the participation of the former Minister for Defence?
I said all matters affecting the attempted importation of arms are presently being investigated.
By the Attorney General?
Yes, and it is not right for the House, having regard to the possible implications of his inquiries and any action he might take, to seek information that could, in effect, prejudice these actions.
[Interruptions.]
I am calling Question No. 11.
Did I understand the Taoiseach to say the matter was being investigated by the Attorney General? Is the word "investigated" correct?
The Attorney General is examining the papers which I submitted to him and has asked for further information. That is what I meant by investigation. That is the Attorney General's function.
Who is investigating the matter?
The Attorney General is investigating the matter in so far as I have put the facts in his possession. He is doing this by using the resources available to him—the Garda——
There must be somebody in charge of the investigations.
The appropriate police officer is in charge of them.
May I ask the Taoiseach, in view of the new directions given to Ministers in respect of security arrangements, if, in recent months, he received from the Minister for Justice the full report available to him in his particular secret service operations?
I did not receive any such report.
Does the Taoiseach not consider that he should have this report?
This is cross-examination of me. I shall deal with these matters as fully as I can later but the House must recognise my limits in this respect. It is not right that connotations and implications be suggested here in view of the importance of the matter that is now being investigated.
It was the Taoiseach who started it.
Yes, as soon as I had knowledge of it.
The Attorney General is a member of the Cabinet who attends at Cabinet meetings but has no voting power.
Is the Deputy making a statement or asking a question?
I am asking if the Attorney General is a member of the Cabinet without voting power?
He attends Cabinet meetings but he does not vote if a vote is ever necessary.
He advises the Government on legal matters?
Yes.
He is a member of the Taoiseach's party?
Yes, he is under my Department.
(Interruptions.)
I understand the Deputy to ask if the Attorney General was under my Department.
That includes all sorts of everything.
He is not a member of the party but he was an active member in the past.
He went forward as a Fianna Fáil candidate in an election.
I do not remember.
Two Fianna Fáil Attorney Generals went forward as candidates in elections.
Can the Taoiseach say if any investigation is being carried out into an attempt to smuggle arms out of Collins Barracks in Cork?
That seems to be a separate question.
I have no knowledge of that.
I can supply the Taoiseach with the relevant facts.
The Deputy might as well ask me if there was an attempt to smuggle arms out of Beirut. Why not put down a question?
11.
asked the Taoiseach what shipments of arms were intercepted by Irish security forces; and when such interceptions took place.
Reports of shipments or other consignments of arms being found and intercepted are entirely speculative and are without foundation.
May I ask the Taoiseach where the consignment of arms which he has stated did not arrive in this country was intercepted and by whom?
The consignment never left Vienna. It was from the airport at Vienna that the consignment was to be made.
Can the Taoiseach say if the £80,000 was given back when the order was cancelled?
Again, I would like to suggest that this underhand imputation is completely wrong and unjustified.
I am only taking the Taoiseach's word for it. He is the person who told us this.
Some reports mentioned that the consignment was of the order of £80,000. I made inquiries as to what the quantity of arms in question would be likely to cost and I was told that it would cost probably less than half that amount—about £30,000. I made specific inquiries, too, as to the source of the money and if it had been paid. I was absolutely assured that the money did not come from any State funds.
From where did it come?
(Interruptions.)
I do not know.
Is the Taoiseach not concerned to find out where it came from?
Ask Deputy Blaney.
Of course I am concerned to find out.
Is the Taoiseach trying to find out?
I am trying to get all the information that I possibly can.
They might have got the arms from somewhere other than Czechoslovakia.
That is another suggestion for which there is no foundation. From inquiries I have made I am satisfied that the arms did not come from Czechoslovakia.
No matter where they were coming from, it was wrong to attempt to import them.
They came from Frankfurt to Vienna and the investigations into that are continuing.
Arms from Czechoslovakia come through Frankfurt.
[Interruptions.]