andDr. Thornley asked the Minister for Local Government the number of successful applicants for Dublin Corporation purchase houses in the Kilmore and Tallaght areas, Dublin; the number of houses built; the number already allocated; and when the remainder will be allocated.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Dublin Corporation Purchase Houses.
53.
At a public draw on 15th October, 1969, Dublin Corporation selected 500 successful applicants for purchase houses in various areas, including 242 at Tallaght. No purchase houses are being constructed in the Kilmore area.
At 30th April last, which is the date to which the latest statistical return from the corporation relates, 110 of the houses at Tallaght had been completed. Of these, 92 had been allocated, and the remainder were being allocated.
In so far as the reply concerns Dublin Corporation purchase houses and applicants therefor in the Kilmore west area, was the Minister's Department aware of dealings between such applicants and the secretary of the Peadar Carney Fianna Fáil Cumann?
This is a separate question and cannot be discussed in the House.
It is sub judice.
It is not. It should be. It is not in court.
I will accept the ruling of the Chair in this matter.
If the matter is sub judice it protects Deputy Haughey, the ex-Minister for Finance——
(Interruptions.)
Question No. 54 is postponed. I am calling Question No. 55.
With regard to Question No. 53, is the Minister aware in relation to some of the houses, the subject of the draw, that their allocation was actually arranged by this particular individual who is not before the courts and who is in England at the present time?
The Deputy is aware that it is out of order. The matter is sub judice.
It is not sub judice until it is in court. The prosecution has not yet been issued. That is a bad ruling of the Chair.
Will Deputy Ryan please stand up when he is speaking?
No matter is sub judice until it is before the court. The matter in question is not before the court. Therefore, there can be no stoppage of any Member mentioning it in this House.
It is sub judice——
It is not sub judice and the Chair knows it. It is not——
The Chair understands that the matter is sub judice. The Deputy cannot argue with the Chair.
I can. The Chair is out of order.
(Cavan): On a point of order, would the Chair say when a matter becomes sub judice because my understanding is——
We cannot debate that now.
(Cavan): It is necessary to find out the position. I understand a matter becomes sub judice when it is before the court. It is not sub judice when it is with the law officers of the State or the police officers.
I would draw the Deputy's attention to Question No. 53. If he reads it he will find that this matter does not arise on the question anyway.
May I ask you, Sir, why you ruled other questions out of order if the matter is not sub judice? Why did you rule them out of order wrongfully?
May I ask the Minister——
You ruled some questions out of order because they were sub judice. I think you must have been misinformed as to the facts because this matter is not before a court and the individual in question is outside the jurisdiction. These applicants are being done out of their money and the Fianna Fáil Party should compensate them. We should not allow this matter to be cloaked over under a pseudo legal device here.
The Deputy is making charges against private individuals. The charges should be made outside this House, not inside the House.
May I ask the Minister for Local Government whether he is satisfied that irregularities have not occured in the corporation?
That is a separate question.
Has the Minister, as the responsible Minister, made any investigations into this matter?
I want to state in reply to the despicable conduct of the members of the Labour Party in putting questions here which concern a matter involving a person, a warrant for whose arrest has been issued, that fair play to everybody should be granted, the small man as well as the big man, and I would expect that they would leave a matter of this nature to be decided by our courts.
Is the Minister satisfied that irregularities have not taken place. Has he, as the responsible Minister, made any examination of the situation?
I am satisfied from the information available to me from Dublin Corporation that they are satisfied that the manner in which the draw for these houses was carried out was satisfactory.
Is the Minister satisfied that no house was allocated wrongfully? Is he aware of the fact that the Garda have evidence that at least one was.
That is a separate question.
It concerns those you wrongfully ruled out of order, with respect.
In view of the importance of public confidence in the administration of the allocation of houses, both purchase and tenant, by Dublin Corporation, would the Minister consider holding a public inquiry?
That is a different question.
It is directly related.
Question No. 55.
May I ask why you ruled that question out of order, the question calling for a public inquiry?
There is nothing in the question asking for such information.
If we want to repeat these questions next week may we have your permission to put them down? You will not rule them out of order, now that the matter is not sub judice?
Deputies can put down questions and the Chair will deal with them in the ordinary fashion.
Did you not tell me last week that my questions would be accepted on the Order Paper today? May I ask that?
It does not arise on Question No. 53.
Last week you told me it would appear on the Order Paper today—a question relating to a public inquiry into the method of allocating Dublin Corporation purchase houses?
The Garda are investigating allegations made by persons, including Deputy Dr. O'Connell, and I think that in a matter of this nature the investigations should be left in the hands of the Garda who are the authority which the State has established to deal with matters of this nature.
A Deputy
It would never get beyond the State Solicitor's office.
Surely the Minister will agree that it is important that any facts should be brought to the attention of the public in connection with this in order that the corporation can be cleared of any suspicion?
Question No. 54 postponed.