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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 28 Jul 1970

Vol. 248 No. 13

Private Business. - Adjournment (Summer Recess): Motion.

Tairgím:

Go rachaidh an Dáil nuair a eiroidh sé an 30ú lá d'Iúil, 1970, ar athló go dtí an 28ú lá de Dheireadh Fomhair, 1970. That the Dáil at its rising on the 30th July, 1970, shall adjourn until the 28th October, 1970.

It was anticipated that the Estimate for the Department of the Taoiseach would be the vehicle for this debate; instead we have a debate on the Adjournment of the Dáil for the Summer Recess. Either would provide the basis of a very wide ranging discussion. I do not propose to try to anticipate all or even many of the topics likely to be raised in the course of the discussion. Other members of the Government will deal with these topics according as they are raised and with aspects of their own Departments as well. Instead, I propose to direct my opening speech to three main topics, two of them closely related and the third less obviously but nevertheless connected with the other two.

The greatest immediate problem facing this nation at present is inflation. This may seem to be a surprising statement for me to make at this juncture but I want to deal with the subject in as factual a way as possible and in as simple a way as I can so that I can emphasise the dire need to tackle this problem and to overcome it. In this country we have been living for almost three decades with continuous inflation, with the result that many people, especially the young, who have no experience of any other environment, have probably come to accept inflation as a permanent feature of everyday life. It is not. Past inflation in different countries and at different times all ended sooner or later. The need to end the present inflation is becoming apparent from events of recent months.

Price rises last year of more than 7 per cent were serious enough but according to many forecasts they are likely to rise by an even higher figure this year. People are aware of this quickening rate in price increases and their reaction to this is not so much that they try to take account of increasing prices that have already occurred but they also try to anticipate price rises yet to come. Thus, employers and workers look for a larger increase in income and, in return, prices are raised by larger amounts in order to meet these increased pay levels.

Because we are so accustomed to this pattern of prices and incomes chasing one another it is difficult to convince people of the damage which inflation can do, and does, to the nation. Initially, it hits the weaker sections. Not everybody is able to raise his income when prices go up. The old, the sick and the unemployed can to the extent that they benefit from social services be helped by Government action, but much hardship is still inflicted on these groups. Workers in firms which are exposed to strong foreign competition will likewise lag behind because pay and price rises in such firms simply mean that they lose their markets to imported products. In the end the whole community suffers.

No one will save more than the minimum even though high rates of interest are offered. Income will be spent quickly in an effort to get ahead of the next price rise. Imports will be pushed higher still and the cost of home goods and services, such as tourism, will be raised so much that foreigners will lose interest in them. Trade unionists and others will be scrambling for higher incomes to get ahead of the accelerated price rises and fewer and fewer firms will be able to pay because of the rapid falling-off in sales of their over-costly products. Jobs will go and more Irish people will be forced to emigrate.

This is a picture of what happens when inflation is allowed to get out of hand and, in particular, when a country like Ireland, so dependent on exports and imports for its economic life, runs a higher price temperature than the world outside. A high rate of price increase has had effects socially and economically even if it is being matched by similar inflation in other countries. An individual country is in real trouble if it starts sliding down the inflationary slope faster than the rest of the world. This is what we have been doing recently. There is a special urgency, therefore, about applying the brakes.

The whole problem has been brought sharply into focus by the publication last week of the Central Bank Report for the year 1969-70. Many of us tended in the past to regard Central Bank reports as something for the economists to discuss between themselves and, while they disputed its different facets and prognostications, the rest of us tended to ignore the whole exercise as something which did not concern us. This attitude is no longer acceptable. If ever there was a year in which the advice of the Central Bank should be heeded this must surely be it. On pages 8 and 9 of the Report it states:

The more disquieting factor at present is the high rate of cost increase in Ireland as compared with other countries. Ireland's rate of price inflation is above the international trend and carries serious implications for future sales of Irish goods and services.

I do not have to spell out what that means in terms of exports, imports, job security and job opportunities. Some of the evidence of this faster rate of Irish inflation is given in Table 25 of the Central Bank Report. This shows that the wage cost per unit of industrial output rose by almost 11 per cent this year compared with 4½ per cent in the United Kingdom and an even smaller increase in Europe and the United States of America. These figures mean that Irish goods became more expensive than those of our competitors and, if this trend were to continue, it is obvious that Irish industry could be priced out of both home and export markets. It is clearly necessary, therefore, that this situation be corrected. But how? The remedies for inflation lie in a combination of monetary policy, fiscal policy and incomes policy. Let us have a look at each of these in turn.

First, let us take monetary policy: this means regulating the amount of bank lending, hire purchase transactions and other forms of credit which facilitate spending. This is primarily operated through the Central Bank. As a result of the bank dispute, it is not possible to establish the extent to which various measures of credit restraint announced in earlier months have become effective. Monetary activities are temporarily in abeyance, but it can be taken that a restrictive monetary policy will continue to operate when normal conditions are restored.

Next, let us take a look at fiscal policy and what it means. It means the spending, borrowing and taxation activities of the Government. These have come in for a good deal of comment recently. Much of the increase in Government spending has been brought about by inflation. When I introduced the Budget earlier this year I described the Budget as one of social concern; the Government were concerned to ensure that, as far as possible, the weaker sections of the community would be compensated for the price increases which had taken place. Inflation had also raised the cost of the various services and to finance all these spending commitments further taxation was inevitable. Should the situation warrant it, the Government would not hesitate to make further taxation changes in order to cope with the consequences of past inflation and curb the possibility of its continuance in the future.

The remaining area for fiscal measures lies in the field of Government borrowing. This borrowing is made to finance capital spending on agricultural and industrial development, on housing, transport, schools and many other items which form part of our capital programme. The first stage of an appraisal of this programme is now virtually complete and the information obtained from this appraisal will be available when deciding where changes in the amount or method of financing public capital spending are necessary to deal with inflationary pressures.

The next antidote to inflation is an incomes policy—I am not necessarily recording these in order of priority— and a great deal of misunderstanding arises as to what an incomes policy is and how it should be implemented. Most people generally see the case for less inflationary Budgets and for credit control but many individually react against any suggestion that income increases should be moderated, even on a voluntary basis. Each individual union wishes to keep the support of its members by doing well for them. Some hope to do better than others. All are being pressed into action by members who, reminded by their wives, no doubt, are acutely conscious of previous gains being whittled down, though not eliminated, by rising prices.

One difficulty in securing any voluntary restraint is the unavoidable delay before the effects on the prices front can be seen. Another is the tendency for a powerful group to press home an advantage regardless of the national implications of that advantage. Still another is the lack of agreement on a reasonable standard of increase. Should it be related in some way to the rate of growth of national output or is it acceptable that standards should vary from one firm to another according to productivity or profitability? There is also the question of how best to provide for a desirable change in the social pattern, such as a special lift for lower-paid workers, and there is the problem of securing an acceptable degree of fairness as between what happens wage and salary earners and what happens other recipients of income. These difficulties are so formidable that there is a temptation to conclude that everything is impossible except chaos.

However, there are some possibilities open to us. On the voluntary side there is the possibility of general trade union agreement on, say, a year or even a half-year extension of the period of existing agreements without any, or perhaps only a small, further increase. This is also referred to in the Central Bank report of this year. If a general agreement of this kind is unrealisable or would be threatened by dissident elements the only way of securing that general and equitable slowing-down of money income increases, which is necessary to control inflation, may be to express a statutory limit to the increases any employer may pay or any shopkeeper, landlord or professional person may demand in the period ahead.

This could be seen as a counterpart of the traffic regulations but involving only a temporary curbing of individual rights. Much legislation, while framed primarily to define what the law-abiding majority considers to be the proper standard of behaviour, aims secondarily at penalising those who deliberately flout it. To return to the analogy, traffic rules are acknowledged by the vast majority to constitute a proper standard of behaviour, where few would observe them if others could break them with impunity. Unfortunately, so far there is little evidence of a willingness to forego the shortsighted and selfish approach of pressing income claims—claims which push up prices at the rate we have experienced recently.

Let me emphasise here that I am not talking merely about wage-earners. If sectional interests are going to be pursued by any group with the same ruthlessness as in the recent past and without regard to the national interest, the result could, in the absence of Government intervention, be little short of disastrous. If it becomes clear that reason and commonsense are being thrown out of the window, strong and firm action must, and will, be taken by the Government.

The Government's main concern is to maintain economic growth and employment but if we continue to insist on trying to enjoy a standard of living far higher than our existing productivity justifies, there must come a point when these objectives must take second place to the imperative need to prevent rampant inflation and a serious balance of payments crisis. The Government view is that, if all concerned are prepared to back the attempt, we should be able to curb the inflation we are now suffering and that we must now attempt to achieve economic growth and rising employment.

It was on this basis that the Government welcomed the NIEC report on incomes and prices policy and moved quickly to establish the employer-labour conference. We are hopeful that these and other arrangements will make it possible for those concerned to sit down and discuss our problems in a rational and constructive spirit in the light of what the national interest requires.

The Government recognise that workers cannot be expected to show restraint in wage demands unless other groups do the same and unless they have some reasonable expectation that the rate of increase in prices will slow down. At the same time, unless restraint is shown, substantial price increases cannot be avoided. The lesson surely is for us all to try to work out some arrangement in which the legitimate interest of particular groups will be reconciled with the national interest. If we are not prepared to do this, then we must all shoulder the blame for the consequences.

There is not much time left. Important agreements expire later this year and the crucial task must, therefore, be accomplished in the months immediately ahead. If I may refer to one positive step that might be taken, I consider that the ICTU might treat as a matter of urgency the convening of the conference proposed at its annual conference for the purpose of clarifying its attitude to an incomes and prices policy, whether on the lines suggested in the NIEC report or some alternative version. I cannot emphasise too strongly that some action, whether of a voluntary or other nature, is needed on incomes in the near future and I would wish all interested parties to have had full opportunity to express their views on this matter.

I come to one of the related subjects, namely, industrial relations problems and particularly those we have been experiencing recently. During the past few months Deputies have expressed concern about the state of industrial relations. This concern arose mainly, indeed almost entirely, from the stoppage in the cement industry which lasted 21 weeks and the closure of the banks because of an industrial dispute. In fact, the bulk of the man/ days lost through industrial disputes since the start of this year was caused by these two disputes. It is also a fact that they illustrate again the tendency in this country for strikes to continue for a long time once work is stopped. There is, I fear, the danger that remarks by Deputies and commentaries in the press and elsewhere on these two disputes may give a misleading picture of the state of industrial relations in this country. Therefore, I consider it desirable to set out briefly the present position.

I think it is the wish of all parties in this House that the pay and conditions of workers should, as far as possible, be settled by free negotiation. This is what happens in the case of the majority of our employer-worker relations. Where difficulties develop in reaching agreement, the conciliation services of the industrial relations officers of the Labour Court are freely available—and I am glad to say they are freely used to the mutual advantage of employer and worker. As a measure of the activity in this field, I might mention that in the past six months nearly 500 conciliation conferences were held under the chairmanship of one or other of these officers and, as a result, more than 70 per cent of the issues involved were settled.

Since the passing, last year, of the amending Industrial Relations Act, the functions of the officers concerned have been widened to include advice and guidance to management and trade unions on such matters as drawing up agreements on work procedures and so on in order to narrow the area of possible friction in employer-worker relations. Despite the efforts of all concerned, experience shows that disputes may flare up from time to time—sometimes from trivial causes. To deal with this kind of situation we provided in last year's Act for a new type of dispute-settler—the rights commissioner to move in with the consent of the parties and recommend instant settlement. Two rights commissioners were appointed last March and have been operating quite successfully.

In cases where the parties still fail to agree, even after going through conciliation procedures, there is the Labour Court to which more than 100 disputes are sent for investigation each year. While the recommendations of the court often lead to settlement and to avoidance of work stoppages, it is regrettable that, despite the care taken by the court in hearing all parties, in weighing up the submissions and in formulating a fair basis for settlement, there are still many cases where the recommendations of the court are rejected—sometimes by the employers but more frequently by the workers. The last report of the court shows a rejection rate of nearly 40 per cent, although in fairness it must be said that most of these cases were settled later without stoppage of work.

This lack of finality has been one of the main causes of disturbance in the industrial relations scene. The Minister for Labour will, however, persist in his efforts to persuade all concerned of the desirability, in the interests of orderly industrial relations, of accepting the finding of the independent body set up by the Oireachtas to investigate disputes and recommend the best and fairest solution in the circumstances of individual cases.

A great amount of thought has been put into this matter down through the years, and various changes have been made in the procedures and the services provided, provided from voted moneys incidentally, to help in the prevention and settlement of industrial disputes and the promotion of good relations between workers and employers. I believe that our procedures are adequate to any situation and, if we have damaging strikes, as we do, the fault is certainly not in our procedures. The explanation sometimes lies in the refusal of one or more of the disputing parties to accept the advice of the honest broker, in this case the Labour Court.

It may be appropriate here to mention the question of Government intervention in particular disputes. The policy of the Government is to leave the settlement of disputes to the parties while giving them all the information and facilities needed by them to reach a fair settlement. That policy was unanimously decided by the Oireachtas almost 24 years ago. It was enshrined in the Industrial Relations Act, 1946 and it has been adopted by all Governments since then. It is consistent with our adherence to the principle of free collective bargaining which many other democratic countries are also striving to uphold. It has served the public interest well. When a dispute drags on or when its effects begin to be felt, there is sometimes pressure on the Minister for Labour to intervene or for some Minister or even the Taoiseach to intervene. As we have seen this pressure can develop in cases where the parties to the dispute fail or even refuse to use the machinery provided for them by this House to help them to settle their differences. It does nothing for the dignity and supremacy of this House to expect a Minister to take on a task for which the House, after much deliberation, has provided the best machinery it could for the purpose or to expect Ministerial action on the ground that the disputing parties have spurned the machinery. This, in my opinion, represents a lack of appreciation on the part of the employer or group of workers concerned of the consequences for themselves, for other workers in different categories and for the nation as a whole.

For these reasons I ask Deputies to support the stand taken by the Government that parties to industrial disputes are expected to use the procedures provided, especially in those cases where detailed arrangements for processing disputes have been agreed between the parties themselves. Deputies appreciate, of course, that free collective bargaining is designed for a democratic society where groups representing different and even conflicting economic interests share a concern and an understanding for each other and also for the welfare of the community as a whole. The system is not at its best where a concern or a group seeks to advance its selfish interest without regard to its effect on others or on the community as a whole nor was free collective bargaining intended to function in a situation where one party, or even two parties to a dispute, are prepared to contemplate disrupting the economic life of the country and cause loss and even disemployment to others in no way involved in their quarrel. It would, I admit, be fair to argue that, when a Government see such indifference for the public interest displayed, it is time for them to reconsider the policy which permits sectional groups pursuing their own gain to inflict damage on the public with complete impunity and indeed to profit from the encounter as well on occasion.

In a society like ours this type of situation always presents a dilemma to the Government. Large sections of the public are prepared to press to have the affair settled immediately and regardless of the consequences to come later in the form of price increases or tax increases or dissatisfaction by others leading to strikes elsewhere and other effects rather than suffer the inconvenience and upset that the particular strike entails. In acceding to pressures to intervene in circumstances like this, the Minister for Labour is consciously disturbing the balance between the parties in the collective bargaining process and is making it more difficult for other employers and trade unions to operate properly the system which everyone is anxious to see maintained and strengthened. I would ask Deputies, therefore, to ponder on the implications of Ministerial interventions in trade disputes and rather than press for such intervention to consider, instead, using their influence to induce the disputing parties to avail themselves of our highly developed procedures and accept the advice of the experienced and competent personnel of the Labour Court and its subsidiary organisations, to whom indeed Deputies have on occasion paid so many compliments.

Now, Sir, I come to the other topic which I said was related to the other two but not perhaps as apparently or as directly. I refer to the situation in the North of Ireland. I think it can be fairly stated that the situation in the north has improved in the last few weeks. The primary objective of the visit of the Minister for External Affairs to the Falls Road area of Belfast was to reassure the minority by making it quite clear and beyond dispute that this Government intended to exert to the full their influence in support of the just claims of the minority in the north. An impetus was given and strength was added to the elected leaders of the minority and to responsible opinion generally. Our interest continues and remains a permanent factor in this situation. I think it is fair also to commend the Stormont Government for their recent actions in banning or curtailing certain parades in sensitive areas. Their decision last Thursday to ban all parades for six months should also help to reduce tension. The reaction last weekend by some elements was predictable. Much of the comment made by opponents of the ban shows very accurately what some of these parades were meant to do, that is, to emphasise a particular type of control of the northern society. Extremists among the majority population now know that they will no longer be able to engage in public provocation of their neighbours at will. I consider this to be a most significant advance in community relations in the north. It bodes well for the northern community that extremists formerly supported by authority are now bereft of that support. It bodes well for the future of the north that the whole community will have some chance of escaping from fear constantly induced by frequent provocation. In this respect, a foundation has been laid but it would be foolish and unwise to think that all is now well. Certain reforms have been legislated and they are useful and important ones. The nature of society in these islands requires that the police should not normally be armed and that there should not be an armed militia virtually outside the control of higher authority. This is now an established fact in the north.

There have also been other reforms to which it is fair to make reference. These include equal voting rights, the creation of a ministry and a commission dealing with community relations, legislation to prevent incitement to hatred. However, equal voting rights cannot be exercised in local government elections probably until 1972 and the work of people involved in community relations and in implementing the Prevention of Incitement to Hatred Act may take time to make itself felt and understood.

There are other reforms of most substantial importance which are not yet on the Statute Book. These include the setting-up of the Central Housing Executive whose twin purposes are to increase the rate of housebuilding and to ensure that houses are allocated fairly. It is vital that ghetto housing should no longer be a feature of local government administration in the north. Such an activity is contemptuous of people as well as of the history of this island. Those who have indulged in it know neither their neighbours nor their own heritage. Their influence in relation to the Central Housing Executive should not be allowed to subvert it from its proper duty in the future.

The reform of local government is another essential reform which must not be delayed. The MacRory Report, published last month, must quickly be examined and legislation built upon it. I hope we shall not have a repetition of the curious brand of consultation— with people opposed tooth and nail to any change in the north—and whose only purpose is to delay action or to make reform meaningless. This summer could usefully be used by the Administration in Stormont to prepare the necessary legislation and to have it available for parliamentary discussion as soon as Stormont resumes for the present session. The possibility for people to exercise the franchise in local government elections is dependent on local government reform. If reform is to be properly felt in the community, this right to vote must not be delayed any longer than is absolutely necessary. There are proposals designed to eliminate discrimination on political or religious grounds in public employment. I am aware that voluntary means of providing for these are in train, but there should be no hesitation about compelling non-discrimination if this should be necessary. There is also a proposal to incorporate an anti-discrimination clause in all Government contracts so as to prevent discrimination in private employment. I cannot understand why it should take so long to apply such a reform. I believe it should not be impossible to put it into effect immediately.

The proper representation of minorities at nominated or appointed levels has also been promised. In this respect, the failure to consult Opposition Members at Stormont in relation to minority representatives on the police authority is a bad start. Such a failure is not justifiable now and, in any event, leaves the impression that minority appointees are not represented. The MacRory Report envisages several central bodies. It would be useful to create machinery now for consultation with elected representatives of the minority about appointees to these boards in due time.

I think that this brief examination I have made of existing and promised reforms demonstrates how necessary reform in the north is and what a long distance there is yet to be covered by the Stormont Government. They must understand that the basis of good community relations in the north is the recognition of the full rights of the northern minority to express its political personality and to be respected in doing so by the organs of the State. Anything short of this would be incomplete, unsatisfactory and a confession of failure to govern wisely. The completion and continuing perfection of this principle of government in the north will lead to the natural disappearance of the Special Powers Acts and to all that has been done in their name.

In respect of north-south relations, as was announced recently, the Government decided last May to set up an inter-Departmental unit whose principal tasks are to examine all matters affecting north-south relations; to keep in close touch with all aspects of Anglo-Irish relations having a bearing on the situation and to arrange for a study in depth of short term problems as well as of longer term difficulties. This unit reports to me through the Minister for External Affairs. Its duties have been the subject of some discussion in Dáil Éireann and much discussion in the news media in the past two weeks. I wish to emphasise that the unit is not a policy-making body. Its work is essentially academic. I want to say, too, that it will draw together in a cohesive way all the previous studies that have been done in relation to the reunification of our country. Again, I want to emphasise that there have been studies; some comment has been made that it is only now that we are undertaking this exercise. There have indeed been studies and useful studies available to the Government and available to this inter-Departmental unit. These studies have covered and will cover economic, social and cultural conditions. The unit may commission expert examinations. It may make recommendations as to internal as well as to what I might describe as infra-Ireland matters.

So far as the future of our whole country is concerned, I should like to repeat what I have said already. It is my aim, it is the Government's aim, that Ireland should be united. I stated my motive recently in a television broadcast and it is that, in this island, there shall never again be fear, turning to hatred, turning to bloodshed. This implies quite clearly and deliberately that, in our view, Ireland will be united when the main Irish traditions are able to build together a new Irish society to their mutual good. Such a new Irish society must take into full account the various considerations put forward by the Irish minority as to how they see the form and the shape of a society agreeable to them. The task of government is to see to it that the equality of citizens before the law is never violated for religious reasons whether openly or covertly nor should there be discrimination amongst citizens. We should apply these rules in all our governmental behaviour. This country contains a population of which 10 per cent are Presbyterian, 10½ per cent Church of Ireland and 75 per cent Catholic. This society, in which other minority groups are involved, must be drawn together. In so far as there are constitutional difficulties which are legitimately seen by people to be infringements of their civil rights, then their views are worthy of intensive examination and we should try to accommodate them in our Constitution and in our laws.

Civil rights are the other man's rights; his right to do something that may not sit well with me but which I am bound to respect for my sake as well as for his sake. To me, any Irishman is an Irishman. I am convinced that our society is capable of moving away from unnecessary restrictions both in the interests of doing so for its own value and in the interests of doing so for our country's progress in unity and peace. Society is constantly in a state of perfecting itself. Its instruments are Parliament and Government. Therefore, our duty is clear.

As I said, there was a link between what I have said in relation to the situation in the North of Ireland—our desire for reunification of the country —and the two other topics to which I have already referred. There is a link in the economic sense and certainly in the economic issue of inflation which I dealt with in some detail.

One of the arguments against reunification which is made periodically by some people in the north is the difference in living standards as exemplified by our lower levels of spending on items such as social services and health. There is no need for me to go into the historical reasons why differences in economic well-being should have existed between ourselves and the United Kingdom. The economic progress of the past 12 years has led to a narrowing of the gap between standards here and in the north and has thus helped to weaken some of the obstacles to closer links with our fellow-countrymen. Therefore, for this reason also, it is clearly important that our economic progress should continue unchecked in the years ahead.

In modern conditions patriotism takes many dimensions. It is just as important to show our capacity to solve economic problems in a responsible manner as it is to demonstrate our political maturity and understanding. Only by success on both fronts can we expect to achieve our goal of a country in which all our people can remain to live and work in peace and well being.

I think it is a commentary on the political situation that has presented itself and has existed in this country for some months that this is the first major review we have had of the state of the economy, and that it comes on the very eve of the Adjournment of the Dáil. The diagnosis which the Taoiseach made in connection with inflation and the effects of inflation on the economy, and its reaction on living standards, is not one with which anyone will disagree in general. What we will question and, indeed, question in respect of a number of aspects of the stated policy of the Government, is how the operation and influence of Government policy is effected in practice rather than in speeches.

This applies not merely to the economic and social aspects of the country's affairs but in particular to the political matters which were the subject of the concluding remarks which the Taoiseach referred to as the third point related to the other two. Undoubtedly the rise in prices in this country in the past year has been extremely alarming. The published statistics in the Central Bank report refer to a rise of over 7 per cent in the consumer price index. Today at Question Time a statistical question was answered about the price rise and it would appear that the rise in 12 months has been over 8 per cent. Even the statisticians find it difficult to keep in touch and to keep up to date with the price rises.

This year it appears, on present indications, that the price rise may be as much as 10 per cent. This is an unprecedented rise in this country and, indeed, it is difficult to see, if that trend continues, how this country can avoid a major economic crisis. The various informed bodies that have addressed themselves to this problem and the comments that have been made reinforce—and, indeed, one need not go beyond the two documents issued within the past week which clearly emphasise this—what this party have said for the best part of the past 12 months, that is, that the economy was in a dangerous situation and that the trends of developments were such that we had reached a stage where confidence in our economic position had been severely shaken.

One aspect of this is, of course, the continued rise in wages and the effect that high increases in incomes have had on price levels, and the continued chasing of higher prices by higher wages with higher wages followed again by higher prices. The trouble is that the demand for high wage and salary increases is caused by rising prices and particularly by the fact that workers and others in employment, both wage and salary earners, feel that prices will rise even faster in the future.

If a trade union or a body representing workers is negotiating on behalf of its members an agreement for a certain level of wages which it is anticipated will run for a period of 18 months or two years, it naturally wants to be sure that it gets at least enough to cushion its members against price rises during the term of that agreement. At the rate of price increases we have seen here, anybody now negotiating for an 18 month agreement would have to anticipate an increase of at least 15 per cent merely to ensure that his income in 18 months time was not less in actual real terms than it is now.

In practice, of course, naturally people are looking for a great deal more because on the basis of the published figures and the prices that have been quoted and which are contained in different groups of statistics, they have less and less confidence that even the present rate of price increases will be held. They are also concerned to ensure that other groups within the community do not secure proportionately more than they do. Therefore, we have a more or less frantic scramble to secure income increases to counteract rising prices which, in turn, are being pushed up by rising incomes.

This has been referred to at some considerable length in the recent report of the Central Bank, which was referred to by the Taoiseach, and in which it is stated that Ireland's rate of price inflation is above the international trend and carries serious implication for future sales of Irish goods and services and that competitiveness is being eroded by a degree of price and cost inflation which is greater even than in the United Kingdom and much greater than in the EEC countries generally.

This report dwelt at some length on the problems that have arisen here and on the effect of price increases as well as the disturbed state of industrial relations. It referred to this as one of the most serious problems possible. One of the references in an article at the end of the book showed that in the earlier period between 1950 and 1959 Ireland ranked fifth in the countries mentioned in the magnitude of its consumer price rise but in the decade 1960-69 it had moved to joint second place.

The result of that situation is that there is a tendency among many people —this appears to include the Government who adopt a fatalistic attitude to it—to take the view that one simply does nothing and that in the long run everything will work itself out satisfactorily. This, I believe in the circumstances, is an irresponsible view. It is obvious that, particularly in a small country, inflation cannot go beyond a certain point without having very severe consequences for a large number of people. The Government attitude, in effect, is to transfer the blame to the trade unions, to industry or to any other section and the Government follow a policy of masterly inaction on the basis that there is nothing they can do. This is precisely the policy and attitude that very largely has got us into the present situation.

I have repeatedly said, and we have repeatedly expressed the view from this side of the House, that there is no instant formula to deal with these problems, no short cut that can be taken to cure or solve everything overnight. The solution to the kind of difficulties which we have is essentially to have a consistent long-term and clearly understood Government policy. This is what leadership is about and it is the only basis on which confidence can be rebuilt. It is unrealistic and foolish to expect that individuals and groups will hold back from pressing their own interests to the limit as long as they feel that the Government have not a policy which can secure justice in the economy without a free-for-all.

The catalogue of mistakes and examples of ineptitude on the part of the Government in handling the economy is a long one. The Government have shown no consistent policy in respect of the economy that can clearly be understood and accepted by all sections of the community. They have skipped from one short-term expedient to another, shamelessly manipulating the economy for short-term political purposes.

About 18 months ago the then Minister for Finance went on radio and television and delivered an address expressing the view that the country faced an economic crisis. Within a month, that crisis had evaporated and a Budget which granted remissions and reductions was introduced solely for the purpose of securing electoral advantage. At that time the Central Bank, the Economic and Social Research Institute and the Report of the National Industrial Economic Council expressed concern and advocated action in respect of certain spheres of the economy and also advocated corrective action. The result of the about-turn in Government policy was that people naturally pressed their claims and pursued their individual demands, either collectively under trade union auspices, or in whatever way it served them to negotiate wage and salary adjustments to get whatever share they could of the national cake.

At the end of the year in which things had been let rip, prices had increased. When the problem had reached very serious dimensions and midway through the negotiation of the 12th round of wages the Government announced that there should be a 7 per cent limit to income increases in 1970. They announced at the same time a corresponding threat of control on prices to the extent of about 4 per cent. That was about as effective as trying to stop a train with a piece of string. The situation that has developed since is such that it has been the subject of most severe criticism and comment, not by politicians or by the Opposition, although we have expressed concern at the situation, but, as I said recently, by two specific bodies in either of which you would need a magnifying glass to find a Fine Gael spokesman, the Central Bank and Córas Tráchtála. Both have expressed their concern and supported it by statistics which show that last year, in a table of Manufacturing Industry; Percentage Changes in Unit Wage Costs in the Major Industrial Countries and in Ireland, the rise here was substantially greater and was more than double the highest figure for any other country. The increase in Italy was 5.3 whereas here it was 10.9.

It went on to comment on the fact that Government spending and consumption were all rapidly expanding and that the policy pursued in respect of this had been deliberately inflationary. It said that the choice of financing methods used to provide money for the Exchequer's capital requirements and for any deficit in the current budget had a major influence on the behaviour of aggregate demand which, in turn, affects prices and the external balance. In general, it said, the greater the extent to which an increase in Government expenditure is financed by taxation or by domestic saving rather than by money creation or external borrowing, the less marked will be the effect of such increased expenditure on aggregate demand.

Last week, or the week before, in reply to a Parliamentary Question, I got a list of the items that had increased in price between mid-May, 1969, and mid-May of this year. These price increases had occurred in respect of every item included in the consumer price index. It showed that in respect of meat of every category, fish, vegetables, flour, milk, in respect of all articles of food, in respect of clothing, drink, tobacco, fuel and light and in respect of housing, hospital charges, every item that affects the domestic consumer either as an individual or as a person responsible for meeting family commitments, there has been a very substantial increase.

Since then the turnover tax has been doubled from 2½ per cent to 5 per cent. That is one of the greatest contributors to an inflationary situation, one of the factors that have added further to the problems which have been referred to by the Central Bank and the problems that have been referred to in the report of Córas Tráchtála. Córas Tráchtála adverted to this in the report which was published in the last day or two in which, having referred to a table at the bottom of page 8, showing that the export performance in this country was the lowest in the percentage volume increase last year of any of the EEC countries or of Britain, it went on to say:

The figures quoted in the table above for export price increases show that our prices increased by almost two and a half times EEC prices and twice British export prices.

It then referred to the NIEC report on incomes and prices which said that in 1969, and I quote:

Prices and money incomes have risen faster in Ireland than in any other OECD country.

Then it went on:

This, coupled with industrial unrest and loss of working hours through disputes and stoppages, imposed severe disabilities on Irish exporters compared with their overseas competitors.

This body which, I am glad to see, can show a record of expansion and development in exports was established as a result of a committee appointed by my colleague, Mr. Dan Morrissey, when he was Minister for Industry and Commerce. It has shown quite remarkable success in respect of industrial and other exports, to such an extent that this organisation commissioned a study by Arthur D. Little, Incorporated, of the Methods and Techniques of Export Promotion employed in Ireland and a number of other western European countries. This report concluded, inter alia, that the tax benefits and other services provided to the Irish exporters collectively amount to as generous export promotion incentives as are available in any country and that Ireland's future export promotion activity can be carried out effectively by existing institutions among which Córas Tráchtála could continue to play a key role.

Our ability to compete with our principal competitors, either Britain or other EEC countries, has been very severely taxed and jeopardised as is mentioned in this particular commentary and in the Central Bank Report. It is, therefore, difficult to understand the recent Budget policy and hard to accept it as a sound economic instrument. The Central Bank commentary, the commentary of the NIEC as well as that of the other bodies that have dealt with the economic situation have referred, as the Taoiseach remarked, to the effects of inflation. The increase in turnover tax, the additional burden it has placed on consumers, the additional burdens on the cost of a variety of commodities have been referred to here on many occasions.

There has recently been some reference to the effect of price changes and their influence on the tourist trade. One of the factors that have been referred to is the difference in prices of commodities in this country and in Britain. From recent figures of ordinary items, I find the price of a pint of Guinness in London in a number of cases is 3s; here it is 3s 6d. The price of a gallon of petrol, best grade, here is 6s 8d; in England it is 6s 6d. In addition to that, the cost of the car ferry service to the Continent is substantially lower than the cost of the ferry service to this country.

While it is true that the problem, to which I shall refer later, in the North of Ireland had an effect on the number of tourists who have come here and caused a number of cancellations in bookings and generally disorganised the normal expansion which one would expect in the number of tourists, tourism has also been affected by other factors, some of them directly attributable to Government policy. The only merit one can see in the introduction of the turnover tax, and the increase in it in the manner in which it was done, is the intention to get in at one sweep as much of a slice of revenue as possible and hit as many people in as many ways as possible in respect of the items that are included in it.

We must consider, however, the effect on the economy of such price increases. There is the burden imposed, as referred to by the Taoiseach, on the weaker sections. We have seen very substantial wage and salary demands over recent months in respect of workers, and one can understand the effect of price rises on the weaker sections of the community. It is true that the increases which were granted in nominal terms in the Budget in respect of social welfare categories appeared greater than those given before, but compared with the rise in prices, compared with the wage and salary demands made by trade unions and other organised sections on behalf of their workers, it is obvious that the increases that have been granted are not sufficient to enable people to maintain their existing standard of living, not to speak of improving it.

The view we have put forward is one we have expressed repeatedly, that a national prices and incomes policy should have been adopted, and it is not yet too late to do it. Undoubtedly, a policy of this sort is not one that can be forced upon the community. It is not economically or statistically or in regard to particular categories of workers perfect in every respect, but it is a move in the right direction and it can make an effective and a purposeful contribution to the orderly adjustment of wages and salaries. This particular matter has been referred to in other reports and recommendations. The Central Bank report underlines its conviction that not only is action by the Government urgently necessary but that it is feasible and even at this stage could be of value. One of its most significant quotations is from the Report of the Bank of International Settlements in which, referring to developments in many countries and particularly the effect of inflationary problems in other countries, it says:

One is that delays in tackling inflation are not only costly but serve to make later corrections more difficult.

At a later stage in this report where the question of price inflation was considered in an article written by Mr. Hoare it said:

In advanced economies generally rising prices are evils to be eradicated. Rising prices sap the moral fibre of the community by endowing some individuals with unmerited gains and by reducing the standard of living of the lower and constant income classes, unless compensated for by a policy of income redistribution entailing high rates of taxation. Rising prices threaten internal peace because they promote labour trouble, and external peace because of the danger of the deterioration in the terms of trade between economically advanced and less advanced countries.

That reinforces the picture that has been given but it is made all the more urgent by the deterioration in the competitive capacity of this country compared with the countries to whom we are selling. One of the facts referred to by the Central Bank is that our true economic growth rate is slowing up while at the same time prices are accelerating. It said that the number of workers taken into industrial enterprises increased rapidly in 1969. It showed that in that year there was an increase in the number of workers taken into certain industries of about 11,000 or 12,000 but that that was matched by an outflow in respect of agriculture of approximately the same amount and that the net overall increase as a result of the changes was only about 4,000.

This situation had implications because of the wage cost structure which as I said earlier increased more than twice as fast here as in Britain during the same period, nearly three times as fast as in Germany and four times as fast as in the United States, Japan and France. These figures and the references made by the Taoiseach as well as the figures I quoted from An Córas Tráchtála emphasise one thing: that these are not remote figures. They are not without particular practical significance. They are figures which pose a potential threat to the immediate employment of every worker and they mean that what we offer for export is less competitively priced than it was before.

That is a serious problem when we consider that 40,000 people in Ireland depend directly, and many thousands depend indirectly, on exports for their jobs. It would be foolish to imagine that because we have not got mass unemployment yet, we have nothing to fear. Export orders are booked long in advance. It is only now that export salesmen are finding that because their costs have gone up so much faster than the countries to which I have referred, and the countries to which they are endeavouring to sell, what they have to offer is not as attractive as it was last year or the year before. This does not apply to exports alone; countries to which we have been selling, Britain and the EEC countries, also sell goods on the Irish market. Because our costs are rising faster than theirs, their products are becoming more competitive and therefore our imports of those goods are increasing. That is why I believe, as the Central Bank report points out, our rate of industrial growth is slowing up. It means that fewer new jobs are being created and the danger of increased emigration is likely to occur again.

One of the factors to which the Central Bank report referred was the continuance of the very high rate of Government expenditure and borrowing. In one of the earliest references in the report it shows that public expenditure, current and capital combined, rose by over 18 per cent, in both 1968-69 and 1969-70, which was more than the increase in respect of private expenditure, current and capital, which rose by approximately 14 per cent in the same period. It adverted to the fact that, as has been referred to many times, external borrowing as a method of financing public expenditure is the most costly and most highly inflationary it is possible to adopt. It is of course true, and this should be clearly understood, that much of the expenditure is for purposes about the desirability of which there is general agreement—health, housing, land reclamation, programmes of that character and of capital and social developments and improvements, on which there is no disagreement. There is, however, strong evidence that much of the public spending is less than it could be and represents an ineffective use of national resources.

Indeed, the Devlin report underlines the fact that the present Government machine is not capable of running a modern economy efficiently. Time and again the lack of effective training throughout the public service is stressed and it is indicated that without proper effective training and without the Government machine being modernised and streamlined the best possible use of resources cannot be made to the fullest desirable extent. When, as is the case of this country, the resources are limited the greatest care is needed when deciding on priorities for their expenditure, and proper co-ordination with various branches of Government to ensure that what they do and what they spend fits properly into an overall Government plan. This is the whole purpose of national planning. Yet at the very time when this is most urgently needed the Government have virtually abandoned the whole policy of planning and have reverted to the former system of ad hoc decisions guided by short-term political expediency. There is little evidence that the Government recognise how important it is to examine the Devlin report recommendations and how urgently necessary it is to implement them. I believe it would make a contribution to correcting the present economic situation if resources were used more efficiently and more selectively on the lines of the recommendations made in the Devlin report.

One of the matters which have been the subject of a great deal of consideration in recent months has been Government policy and national attitudes to the problems affecting our people in the North of Ireland. One of the difficulties is the need to examine carefully how performance matches promise and how the implementation of policy in both parts of the country measures up to undertakings given. The Taoiseach has had occasion to speak recently on the attitude adopted here in respect of what is regarded as the majority of the people in the North of Ireland. From time to time references have been made and reassurances given which would seem to indicate that there is a clear commitment to the concepts, policies and approaches this party has consistently advocated over the years.

This matter has been the subject of many references by the Taoiseach over the last 12 months. It has been the subject matter of a great deal of discussion since the State was established. Briefly, I want to refer now to some of the matters dealt with by the Taoiseach in his concluding remarks in order to show that action was taken a long time ago, when it was in certain respects less easy to deal with the situation and when there was not the same encouragement from all parts of this House.

As far back as February, 1957, the Government decided that, with a view to the preparation of specific detailed proposals for the integration of the national territory, each Department should undertake forthwith, in respect of matters with which it is concerned, an intensive study of all the practical problems that may be expected to arise in that connection, including problems relating to harmonisation, subject to due allowance for the legitimate legal and sectional interest, of policies and methods concerning agricultural and industrial development, social services, health services, education and other matters; and that, for the purposes of the said, it may be assumed (a) provisionally that a separate legislature with powers corresponding to those at present exercised by the Six County Parliament will be created or recognised in respect of either the present Six County area or a smaller area such as the area in which those who are at present opposed to reintegration form a homogeneous majority; and (b) that the powers at present reserved by the British Parliament will be transferred to a parliament for all Ireland.

That decision was taken in February, 1957. Prior to that decision there was a good deal of consideration of many matters and eventually the study undertaken and the discussions between the different Departments culminated in the Government decision to which I have referred. It would be interesting to know what happened. What action was taken on foot of that decision in the years that have elapsed since? The Government went out of office shortly afterwards and, so far as we were concerned, we had no further direct responsibility, but some reference has been made recently to the need for reassuring the majority in the Six County area about their position, to the desire to ensure that they would have their views respected and, as the Taoiseach said, that they would have equality of treatment and fair dealings.

At the very inception of the State this party guaranteed equality of treatment for all minorities and zealously safeguarded rights in respect of public appointments and in respect of the minority's position in the community. It is not necessary now to recall the criticism and opposition that policy met with, but it is right to recall that one of the matters recently the subject of reference by the Taoiseach has been an undertaking or a promise to carry out certain amendments of Article 44.1 of the Constitution.

It is only right we should discuss this because it is only on the basis of what has been done or is proposed to be done that we can judge the effectiveness of the undertakings given. Some four years ago the Taoiseach's predecessor invited Deputies of both the Fine Gael and Labour Parties to sit on an all-Party Committee. Some of the comments made in respect of the undertakings given by the Taoiseach in relation to the proposed amendment have been welcome.

We want to see what has happened in practice. The Labour Party, Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil participated in a joint committee which examined a variety of questions and made a number of recommendations. After 17 meetings and after examining with care the problems brought before it, the committee brought in a report in December, 1967. Not a single recommendation included in that report has yet been implemented. The only point that emerged from it—something that was not in the recommendations—was the referendum, and this was one of the matters on which there was not agreement. I would add that this committee decided in the early stages to present a report in such a form that where a matter was unanimously recommended it would be so stated and where agreement was not possible the different views would be presented and the matter put forward in that fashion.

One of the aspects of the Article that has been the subject of discussion is that it created differences and difficulties for religious groups, particularly for non-Catholics. The present Taoiseach has committed himself to the view that this Article should be repealed and, as the signature of his predecessor is also on the report, it would appear that he also is committed to this course. It is right that we examine the origin of this Article. It did not come from the clouds, nor did it come from some external influence, but it was put into the Constitution by Fianna Fáil. The problems that have been raised by this Article were introduced by Fianna Fáil over 30 years ago.

I want to contrast the terms of this Article with the terms of the comparable Article of the 1922 Constitution. Article 8 states:

Freedom of conscience and the free profession and practice of religion are, subject to public order and morality, guaranteed to every citizen, and no law may be made either directly or indirectly to endow any religion, or prohibit or restrict the free exercise thereof or give any preference, or impose any disability on account of religious belief or religious status, or affect prejudicially the right of any child to attend a school receiving public money without attending the religious instruction at the school, or make any discrimination as respects State aid between schools under the management of different religious denominations or divert from any religious denomination or any educational institution any of its property except for the purpose of roads, railways, lighting, water or drainage works or other work of public utility, and on payment of compensation.

That Article in respect of religion was removed from the Constitution and in its place the Article we are now discussing was inserted. The present Article has been the subject of signature by a former Fianna Fáil Taoiseach and an announcement by the present Fianna Fáil Taoiseach that it has caused offence and difficulties for non-Catholics in the North of Ireland and even in this part of Ireland. Fianna Fáil introduced this problem and we are now retracing our steps; the offence caused to people is not being paid for by Fianna Fáil but is being paid for in the religious problems that have been created. The impression is being created that sectarianism has crept into Irish society. There was not any sectarianism in the Article I have quoted. There were guarantees for everybody to practise freely their religion and effective guarantees that they would be allowed to do this. I would add that the same rights were guaranteed in respect of freedom of expression and opinion.

How long will this country tolerate a situation in which the ordinary people have to pay for Fianna Fáil mistakes? I do not think anyone doubts that the Taoiseach himself believes what he says in this regard, and perhaps his predecessor also believed what he said, but nothing has been done about the report issued two and half years ago. Although no action whatever was taken in this matter, every scribe who could get a pen to paper applauded the benevolence, the tolerance and the foresight of a Government who were prepared to eradicate what they introduced into the Constitution.

The unit that was established to examine this matter remained in obscurity for several months. However, there was a much broader, more clearly-defined decision taken in respect of these matters, but nothing was done. Therefore, how can anyone believe that the Government mean to implement what they say? I do not doubt that some members of the present Government believe what they say, but are they free to put these decisions into effect? The Taoiseach has rightly referred, as we have referred in the course of many debates in this House, to discrimination in the north in respect of voting, in respect of housing and in respect of employment.

Recently, attention was directed to the problem of reforming the RUC and the disbandment or disarming of the B Specials. We must contrast our criticism of that with some of the terms incorporated in the Criminal Justice Bill. We must contrast our demand for equal voting rights with the gerrymandering that was carried on by the Taoiseach's colleague, the former Minister for Local Government, when he cut through boundaries of townlands and spent weeks arguing in this House —now he is not allowed to speak either inside or outside the House. We must contrast discrimination in respect of housing in the north with our own problem in the matter of housing.

In the matter of employment we must contrast the discrimination shown in the north with the fact that in this part of the country it can be effectively shown that the way to secure employment is by membership of the Fianna Fáil Party. When we look at the local authority reform that has been advocated in the north of Ireland we contrast that with the fact that we have here the largest municipal authority in the country suppressed and not allowed to exercise its rights on behalf of the people.

We will be judged as a nation on our implementing what we are demanding in respect of all our people in the north—Protestant, Catholic and Dissenter. A great deal of lip service has been paid from time to time to Wolfe Tone. Although he was of the minority he tried to get, through his action, the establishment of equal rights for Catholics. We have, both as a party and as a State, I believe shown that we were prepared to ensure that in practice equal rights were guaranteed. By giving to the non-Catholics in the community representation in public employment, in the judiciary, the Civil Service, the Army and Garda, to an extent even greater than would be warranted on the basis of their proportion of the population, we gave a clear guarantee of equal rights, without discrimination, without exploiting for political party purposes, without using for political expediency at a particular time the kind of phraseology that some courts have said cannot be implemented in practice, which does not mean anything but which gives offence and causes concern. It has now been unanimously recommended for deletion. This was brought into the political language of the country by the Fianna Fáil Party. They are now retracing their steps at the public expense and at the expense of the difficulties and problems that have been created for so many Irish people both north and south of the border. I do not believe that public trust, public confidence, can be reposed in a party that vacillates under difficult circumstances and that merely operates for party or personal reasons.

I do not know whether it was vanity, arrogance or ignorance or a mixture of all three that was responsible for putting this into the Constitution. Whatever it was, it should be removed. Confidence is based on trust and this party show both courage and honesty of purpose no matter what the problems are. Only in that way can we convey to our people, Catholic, Protestant, Presbyterian or those who do not come within any of these descriptions, the position that obtains in this country under the law and what we believe are the basic fundamental rights of people—civil, political, economic and social—and build an Ireland in which we can ensure that all people will have equal rights and equal opportunities. That can be done if we approach it in the way in which it should be approached, in the way in which it was guaranteed in the Article I quoted in which we showed ourselves in a practical way determined to study the problems, to ascertain what these problems were and to work towards solving them. I believe this is a problem that primarily concerns Irish men and women, and that it is a problem that must be tackled on a tripartite basis. There are three governments involved in this, inheritors of, perhaps, the legacy of history. There is our own Government and State here; there are the Government and people in the North of Ireland and the British Government who cannot evade responsibility or wash their hands of it.

I believe that times have changed as was mentioned in a reference by Lord O'Neill. He said that circumstances had changed, that it did not matter which party was in office in Britain, that conditions now were different from what they were 30, 40, 50 or 70 years ago. The recent statement by the Young Conservatives reinforced that and it is probably belatedly carrying conviction.

I think everyone was pleased with and recognised the contribution which the northern authorities made in banning the parades. It was a practical, constructive effort to solve the immediate problems but the problems there can only be solved by the three parties concerned, through their Governments, exercising and enforcing the authority which elected Governments cannot evade and should use to ensure a guarantee in respect of the people for whom they act and speak and over whose lives and property they have responsibility to act and work for. I believe that if it is possible to approach this in a constructive realistic fashion it will be solved. It is not a question of trying to score political points or get advantage for one group or another.

I believe that the northern problem will be solved by people of realism on both sides who have a deep capacity to respect the point of view of others and who recognise and appreciate the need for compromise if a worthwhile solution is to be adopted. The sooner the Governments of the Republic, Northern Ireland and Britain get together and work out solutions in a reasonable manner the better. Each Government has a vital part to play in bringing about a solution. No permanent solution will work which is not participated in and guaranteed by each Government.

My Party are opposed to the Dáil re-assembling on the 28th October, the date proposed today by the Taoiseach. Despite approaches by our party and, perhaps, by Fine Gael to the Government Chief Whip asking for some sort of guarantee or promise that the Dáil would be recalled if necessary during the recess, as far as I can gather there is no intention on the part of the Taoiseach to convene the Dáil if we have a situation similar to the one we had last year with regard to the north, a situation which may occur over the next two or three months and which none of us likes to anticipate.

We thought last year that the position in the North of Ireland was sufficient to warrant the Dáil being reconvened. The Taoiseach said "No." We recall other occasions when the Fianna Fáil Government deemed it proper to recall the Dáil. It was recalled once to consider the Anglo-Irish Free Trade Area Agreement. Again, it was recalled in order that the Fianna Fáil Party might push through the House certain trade union legislation to which we and members of the trade union movement objected very strongly. There was another occasion, I think it was in 1936, when a Fianna Fáil Taoiseach recalled the Dáil. It was not to deal with inflation, or with Partition, the Border or the north. He recalled the Dáil to note the abdication of Edward VIII and to have the Irish Dáil recognise the accession of George VI to the throne. I mention this merely to demonstrate that the Fianna Fáil Party will suit themselves and it does not appear to us that they regard certain things like the northern situation as being sufficiently important to warrant a special meeting of the Dáil.

This Dáil has been remarkable for many things. One could not have foreseen on the 18th June when the Members of this Dáil were elected that we would have such unrest, disturbance and trouble in the northern part of our country. I do not think anybody could have foreseen the upheaval we had in the Cabinet over the last three or four months. I do not think any of us anticipated the reactivation of our application for membership of the EEC nor could any of us have visualised that we would have a prolonged bank and cement strike. We did not know there would be inflation because the Government assured us that inflation was far from the Irish economy. One has only to recall the two speeches of the former Minister for Finance on that matter in March and in April 1969. If this Dáil has been remarkable for certain events that have taken place in the whole country, it has also been remarkable in that it demonstrated the ineffectiveness of Dáil Éireann in dealing with the affairs of the nation.

I am sure every new Deputy who came into this House on 4th or 5th July was, after a few days or a few weeks, disillusioned with regard to his functions as a public representative. Apart from that, it must be admitted that little real work was done. Apart from the defects that are in the parliamentary system, little real work was done. In the past two weeks, we have run through, I think, about a dozen Bills which many people considered to be important. Because the Government and the Opposition and the Dáil in general have been preoccupied with other things, we had to jam all this legislation into a few short weeks towards the end of the second-last week of the session.

The Taoiseach made interesting contributions today on inflation, on industrial relations and, of course, on the situation in the North of Ireland. On reflection, he must admit that these three subjects in particular are subjects which we should have been discussing rather than engaging in the type of discussion we were engaged in in the first few weeks of May of this year. In any case, even if there are—and we believe there are—grave defects in our parliamentary system, the events of the past four or five months have indeed damaged the credibility of the Dáil, of its Members and particularly of the members of the Government. I would say that our credibility as a Parliament and their credibility as a Government have certainly taken a severe body-blow over the past 12 months.

Every Deputy, every Senator, knows from talking to his constituents that the public are confused and perturbed and question the integrity to this Parliament and of Members in it. There is now, to use the Taoiseach's phrase, a shadow of suspicion on those who were not ordinary Members of this House and who are now ex-Ministers of State— those who were charged with responsisibility on the part of the nation for such important Departments as Agriculture, Justice, Local Government and who also had collective responsibility for all affairs of State.

One Minister is still awaiting trial for certain charges that have been preferred against him by the Taoiseach in this House. We note from the newspapers in the past few days that some of the judges are, to use their own phrase, reluctant to preside at the trial. I do not want to question in any way the integrity of any judge or justice in this country. Suffice it to say that, apart from what happened in regard to these three ex-Ministers, the people were very much more confused when, over the past few days, the President of the High Court made this statement that he and other judges were reluctant to preside at the trial of Deputy Charles Haughey, ex-Minister for Finance. Within the rules of this House, the Taoiseach should make some comment on this. As far as another Minister is concerned——

Now, the Deputy will understand——

Deputy Corish got away with it.

I will say it again. One former Minister, Deputy Neil Blaney, was charged on information passed by the Taoiseach to the Attorney General. The public and the Dáil are in the dark as to what these charges are. When will the Members of this House and the public know exactly what the charges were?

Acting Chairman

I should hate to interrupt the Deputy unduly but, in so far as these matters are sub judice, I presume they would not be relevant for discussion now——

I do not think I regard the case of Deputy Blaney as being sub judice. He is a free man. I am talking about Deputy Blaney: I am not talking about Deputy Haughey. Deputy Blaney was prosecuted in the district court and exonerated. Will the Taoiseach tell this House what exactly the charges were? Unless we are told this, unless the evidence that is contained in the book of evidence, as it has been described, is disclosed to the public, I seriously suggest that, as far as Deputy Blaney and the Taoiseach are concerned, the shadow of suspicion must fall on the Taoiseach. Therefore, in fairness not alone to Deputy Blaney but to the Taoiseach, I think that the evidence on which Deputy Blaney was prosecuted should be made freely available to this House and to the public. Failing that, as I suggested in that long debate, the Taoiseach should now agree to have a Select Committee of the Dáil to consider that evidence and these charges so that Deputy Blaney's case can be considered by his fellow Members of Parliament. As far as the other ex-Minister is concerned, Deputy Haughey, his case is sub judice.

Acting Chairman

The Deputy will appreciate that the matter to which he is about to refer is sub judice. In so far as it is related to or connected with another matter which is sub judice it is a matter to which the Deputy should not make reference.

I do not pretend to comment on the merits of the case— either to defend or to accuse Deputy Haughey. I hope the Taoiseach will not adopt the same attitude as he has adopted since Deputy Blaney was exonerated by the court and that he will give Members of this House the information which they seek and which I think he promised in the course of that long debate. Similarly, I do not know how Deputy Haughey will be treated—whether or not he will be found guilty—but it would be fair to ask the Taoiseach to tell us that when this trial and these trials are over, the evidence will be available to the Dáil and to the public.

A certain amount of damage has been done. I do not intend to go again into the details we went into in the long debate of May last but I wonder if the damage can be repaired. What respect can there be for public representatives and public appointments in the light of those recent events?

Acting Chairman

I am sorry to have to interrupt but I think I have already indicated to Deputy Corish, the leader of the Labour Party, that, as I see it, the matters to which he is referring are not matters which are relevant to or in order on this discussion.

On a point of order. I appreciate that the Acting Chairman, Deputy Tunney, is subject to the advice of the Clerk of the Dáil. I suggest that Deputy Corish is referring to a case which is no longer before the courts and that he is referring to a statement made publicly by the Taoiseach that, when the case of Deputy Blaney was dispensed with in the courts, he, the Taoiseach, would make a full and comprehensive statement on all the facts leading to Deputy Blaney's dismissal as Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries to Dáil Éireann and to the country.

I never said such a thing. The Deputy cannot put words into my mouth.

The Taoiseach is very good at double talk.

Not as good as Deputy Cluskey is at it.

What I said was that if a prosecution was not brought I would consider making the facts available.

I do not think this is good enough.

I am standing over what I said.

I am not saying the Taoiseach should not stand over what he said. I cannot quote the Taoiseach exactly now and I will take his word for it. My belief was that in that long debate the Taoiseach said that when the trial was over he would make the evidence available to this House and to the public.

I did not.

I accept the Taoiseach's word——

Deputy Corish accepted my denial and then he repeated what he had been saying.

I now accept the Taoiseach's denial. I think the Taoiseach should disclose the evidence.

On a point of order, all of us will be speaking later on and this may arise again and again. The Taoiseach did say—the records will prove it—that, in the event of the people charged being discharged, he would make a statement in this House. The records will prove it.

Produce the record.

We will produce the record.

Acting Chairman

Deputy Blaney and Deputy Haughey were tried together and a relationship is still there. I would hope in sitting here that I would rule as best I could, having regard to my inexperience in the position.

One was discharged.

Acting Chairman

I would think that since originally both of these gentlemen were tried on a similar charge and one of these has not been dealt with, the matter in toto can be considered as still sub judice.

On a point of order, surely sub judice refers to a person who is currently before the courts on whom no decision has been made. That does not apply to Deputy Blaney.

Acting Chairman

In so far as it has relationship to the case which has not yet been discharged I would ask Deputies to take it that I am seeing it as being sub judice and to desist from referring to it.

May I ask a simple question? Nobody knows what the charges are against the two. How can the Acting Chairman say the charges are similar when nobody knows what was in the book of evidence except those who were involved in the court? However, I will not continue on that matter. It is bad enough to have public representatives and the Government discredited because at intervals the people can remove them, but it is different in the case of these judges who say they would be reluctant to hear Deputy Haughey's case. This is the last straw.

Acting Chairman

The Ceann Comhairle has already indicated that matters concerning the judiciary are not appropriately before the House. The Deputy would have far more knowledge of the House than I have but my experience is that matters connected with or directly associated with the judiciary are not matters which should be discussed here.

We are supposed to have a certain amount of privilege in this House and I do not propose to abuse it. Nor does any Member of my party. It seems very peculiar to me that newspapermen can write articles about the statements of these gentlemen and can talk about their association with a certain party. Surely if it is sub judice for me, it must be sub judice for a news medium. I do not think it should be.

It is in the Constitution—both their right to comment and the Deputy's obligation to desist.

It is our right under the Constitution to put down a resolution in this House to remove them.

That is a different matter.

It is not a different matter. It is under the same Article.

On a point of order, I apologise because the Chair is occupying the position in a temporary capacity and I am not trying to be difficult, but is it not a fact that this House can put down a resolution, and discuss it fully, to remove the President of the High Court?

Acting Chairman

Yes.

Surely in those circumstances we must be able to refer to the judiciary in certain circumstances, and the circumstances brought about by the statement made recently surely justify us in discussing it.

He had better clarify it next Thursday.

Acting Chairman

The justification for a discussion is something on which I am not going to adjudicate. The practice heretofore has been that references to the judiciary were not accepted as being in order and as late as two hours ago having heard the Ceann Comhairle make that statement, I have no option but to follow on the lines indicated by him and to request that references to members of the judiciary should not be made in this discussion.

That was in connection with a decision by a justice and not a statement.

If this reluctant attitude is imitated, I wonder what effect it will have on other public servants like the Garda, the Civil Service, the Army and local officials who may decide that they are reluctant to carry out their duties because of certain associations with people. However, in recent times the public have been told what they should do. We had certain admonitions here today. We had admonitions from the Central Bank and various members of the Government with regard to inflation, wage restraints, what the trade unions should do, what the farmers should do, and so on.

I submit to the Taoiseach, as it was submitted before, that it is time we put our own house in order. The whole machinery of Parliament must be reconstructed and recast. This is supposed to be a democratic Parliament. All Members of the House, particularly those who have been in it for quite some time, will recognise that it is based on a British model and that practically every other public institution has changed greatly in the past 50 years to conform with the changing world. It appears that this Parliament has not changed in any degree in order to meet its new commitments and new responsibilities. The local authorities have been changed through legislation passed in this House. Industry has changed to comply with modern times. So has agriculture. The Church has made sweeping changes over the past ten years and still we are here as parliamentarians imitating a British model given to us about 50 years ago.

The range of Government activities has changed greatly. It has expanded in the creation of new Departments, State and semi-State bodies and various State agencies, but the Dáil has not changed one iota. I talked about the frustration of Deputies here and I suppose members of the Government party, even more than the Opposition, feel a great sense of frustration. Parliament is intended to be a place where we would make laws and contribute to the making of laws. It is only fair to say that we are not employed in that capacity in this House. I do not think it would be unfair to say that we participate in a debating society. We should be frank about it.

This is something that must interest what are called the backbenchers of the Fianna Fáil Party. Decisions are made, in the main, by about 13 or 14 Ministers who are described as the Government or the Cabinet. On some occasion recently, I think either the Taoiseach or one of his senior Ministers said that the Fianna Fáil Party are consulted with regard to various pieces of legislation which are introduced in this House. I would not be prepared to believe that. I am sure that there is not the fullest consultation which I believe there ought to be between the 13 or 14 members of the Government or the Cabinet and members of their own party. The Government appear to be a junta of 13 or 14 who make all the decisions. Maybe they consult on occasion, on particular matters, with the members of their own party.

Whatever we are, we are not a junta.

Two juntas.

There are three or four in the Deputy's party.

I am not sure if that is the plural of junta but there are two anyway.

Needless to remark, I do not deny the Government's right to make decisions and I do not deny the backing they get from the members of their party. It is true that they have a Dáil majority. The Taoiseach must accept that the Fianna Fáil Party and the Government do not represent the views of all the people of Ireland. The Labour Party are concerned to ensure that all these views are represented. On occasions in the recent past, we asked the Taoiseach to have a debate, for example, on the North of Ireland so that views other than those of the Fianna Fáil Party would be represented not only to the country but to the world at large. If Parliament is supposed to be democratic it should appear to be so.

The Government have their majority and their rights and their responsibilities but we cannot waive the right and the functions of the Opposition which are to participate in the framing of legislation, to comment and to amend and improve legislation. I do not think that happens in this House. The right to initiate legislation is practically nil. The real power to amend legislation is practically nil.

This is evident every day when we get down to the important business of making laws. I do not think there were many occasions in my lifetime in the Dáil, about 25 years, when a Fianna Fáil Government Minister—I suppose it happened when we were in Government also—said to some Opposition Member: "I think that is a good idea. I shall incorporate it in the Bill." This does not happen because it seems under our system the Government have the right to make all decisions but they believe that they are the custodians of all views of all sections. Those who are termed backbenchers in the Government party know they dare not put down amendments and amendments are few and far between. I think we should behave in a rational way so that Members on all sides of the House should have the right to get consideration of what they regard as proper amendments of legislation.

The disillusionment of the public is demonstrated by the activities of organisations outside the Dáil. I say this seriously because there is no sense of participation. I do not believe we are a real democracy. This is supposed to be a democratic Parliament; I do not believe it is because people are not involved in decision-making. That is why the farmers marched and why the National Association of Tenants' Organisations marched. That is why the students march: they are not involved and not given responsibility and, as we said a few weeks ago, they have not responsibility even in the election of public representatives unless they are 21. They feel they are not involved and because of this and because of the inertia in this Parliament there is a certain diminution in the credibility of Dáil Éireann as an institution and of ourselves as public representatives.

The Taoiseach was reasonably receptive some time ago when certain proposals were sent to him by the Labour Party after these proposals had been formulated by a committee spearheaded by the late Deputy Séan Dunne. The Taoiseach said he would be prepared to have these recommendations considered. I do not know what other initiative the Labour Party could show in this matter. I think these recommendations were debated——

No, they were not debated in the House. I understood they would be considered by the Committee on Procedure and Privileges. I do not know if they were, but I do not think so.

The Taoiseach was given a copy of them. It was raised, perhaps, by question and answer. I am putting them to the Taoiseach again for his consideration. I think they should be discussed in the House after being discussed by the Committee on Procedure and Privileges. The first recommendation was that a Standing Committee of the Dáil should be established to debate Committee Stages of Bills and the Estimates of various Departments. On this Committee there should be people with interest and expertise in the topics discussed by that Committee. This would free the Dáil for other legislation. As it is, we are cluttered up, as we have been for the past few weeks, towards the end of the session and legislation does not get the attention it warrants.

It was also recommended that the televising of the Dáil proceedings should be studied as a matter of urgency. This should be considered by a Select Committee. There are people who are camera shy and people who are camera conscious. However, if the public are to see this Parliament working and see the democratic machine, bad as it is, they should have a better opportunity than by merely appearing here in the Public Gallery a few times a year. Let me stress that we believe, as we said, that Dáil recesses are too long and should be shortened. We have the example of this session. During the year this Dáil is in recess for about 21 weeks—about six weeks over Christmas, two weeks over Easter and, say, three months, as is now proposed over the summer.

I should preface this by saying and again reminding the public and the Press that Deputies do not necessarily do nothing between the Adjournment of the Dáil and its resumption in the next session. I think the public do not take a good view of our deciding, in view of all the important things that have to be decided, to adjourn on Thursday night and resume on 28th October. The Taoiseach spoke about inflation. If there are proposals to deal with inflation I think we should not leave them until 28th October. If we want to have a united front as regards the north, we should not wait until 28th October to do so. If, as the Taoiseach said, there is urgency about industrial disputes and trade union legislation we should not wait until 28th October. If housing and social welfare legislation is needed, or legislation for the farmers or the industrialists, we should not delay another three months in view of the warning the Taoiseach has given about the dire consequences of galloping inflation here.

The Labour Party also believe that weekly sittings should extend over four days and that the hours should be increased to meet modern requirements. There has been and there is some crazy notion that we should not meet till the afternoon and that we should continue debate and discussion until 10.30 at night. The excuse was given that Ministers had to do their work. The Ministers are not always engaged in this House. I suppose they are here less frequently than certain Deputies. The offices are not miles apart and Ministers can well do their work in the mornings. It is a rational and sensible suggestion which should be accepted that we should meet more often and that we should adjust our hours so as to conform a little more to those of workers in any other walk of life. It is crazy that we should be determined not to have Dáil Éireann meet in the mornings and not to have four sittings in the week.

We also suggest that three hours weekly should be devoted to Private Members' Time with definite rules of procedure for introducing Private Members' Bills. It is a legitimate complaint by any Opposition that what they can initiate or propose and what topics they can list for discussion are not only very limited but practically nil. We saw that recently. I do not deny the Taoiseach's right to deny this House a debate on Northern Ireland. Fine Gael and the Labour Party, who represent more people that the Government party, asked on many occasions for a debate on the situation in Northern Ireland and the Taoiseach refused.

Did we not have a debate? I cannot understand this. We had a long debate.

How long ago was that?

This year, early this year.

No, we had it last October. We referred to it incidentally when considering the case of the three ex-Ministers, but I am only giving this as an example. What I am trying to demonstrate is that the Government run the business of this House. I believe they should have a majority interest in doing that but I am trying to tell the Taoiseach that the opportunities for Opposition Members to initiate legislation and list motions is extremely limited. Since this Dáil came into being about this time last year, Private Members' Time amounted, I think, to about 12 hours. That should certainly be changed.

I also believe that the procedure for Private Notice Questions should be altered. In the case of the British House of Commons when something happens in some part of the world it can be debated the next day or at least mentioned by way of question. We do not seem to have the same opportunity. I am not questioning the Ceann Comhairle, but I fear he is guided too much by precedents. If something happens which a number of Deputies consider to be of urgent public importance, I believe such a question should be taken and answered. Let me assure the Taoiseach this probably would eliminate what might be considered unruly and unseemly conduct because we are genuinely angry when a Private Notice Question on a matter we regard as being of urgent public importance is refused. The rules in relation to that definition are far too tight and must be relaxed.

Many Deputies here, including those in the Labour Party, have been saying for years that there should be a permanent Dáil committee to deal with semi-State bodies. This committee should be established as soon as possible. If there were to be a consensus of opinion taken in this House as to whether there should be such a committee I believe that, apart from any direction that might be given from the top, 80 to 90 per cent of the Members of this House, excluding members of the Government, would agree we should have the right to discuss, as a committee does with civil servants, the workings and the finances of the various State bodies. People outside this House believe that Deputies are responsible for what the ESB, CIE or the Sugar Company might or might not do. Most of these bodies are propped up financially by the State and, therefore, we who vote the money to these State agencies should have the right to discuss policy and finance with them.

God help us if we had all that to do. We would be sitting on Saturday and Sunday.

I know the Deputy is anxious to go home, and I think he could leave now.

The Deputy would hardly have time to attend a funeral if he worked like that.

I want to emphasise that it is not the intention in these recommendations to usurp the functions of the Government. Matters of public interest, however, should not remain undiscussed because the Government say so or because Standing Orders say so. These proposals can certainly be mended. We do not stand rigidly by them. They have been fairly well accepted by all parties but nothing has been done about them. They would go a long way towards bringing the Dáil machinery up-to-date and would engender greater respect for and confidence in Dáil Éireann among the public, confidence which I do not think is quite full at the present time. A new-look Dáil Éireann is needed, particularly in view of the country's difficulties, in view of the gravity of the decisions we will have to make in the immediate future, decisions we shall have to make, for example, in regard to constitutional changes if we should become members of the European Economic Community.

There has been a fair debate on the European Economic Community and Ireland's application, and I certainly do not want to go into it in detail, although other members of my party will consider they should on an occasion like this. As far as that application is concerned the consequences of membership must be emphasised. The advantages are being over-stressed, particularly in this House, both by the Fine Gael Party and the Government party. What I said in that debate about our opposition to the concept of the EEC is sincere and is still valid, but I wish to put this point as well. This is a tremendous decision we are going to make, to go into Europe where the trade barriers will be levelled down. As I said, my party believe in opposition to the application, but even if that were not our view, there must and there should be in Dáil Éireann someone to put the countrary view. It would be a severe reflection on any Irish Parliament if Fianna Fáil were to say: "We approve of the application," and if the Fine Gael Party and the Labour Party were to say: "We approve of the application." Our role here, a role in which we sincerely believe, is to point out the difficulties. It should be remarked that the fulsome welcome for our application for membership of the EEC which was evident ten years ago through the leading articles in the newspaper and in many economic magazines is it not so evident now. The Labour Party are doing a service to industry, to agriculture and to the whole nation in pointing out as often as we can what we believe are the drawbacks and the disadvantages should we become members of the EEC.

Let me refer again to the constitutional changes that the White Paper says we may have to make on being accepted as members. They are much greater and more far-reaching than at first realised, and certainly much more far-reaching than were described by Deputy Charles Haughey when he spoke in this House some months ago. The White Paper tells us we must consider a change in Article 5 of the Constitution. Does this mean we may have to declare we are not a sovereign, independent and democratic State, because Article 5 declares this country to be "a sovereign, independent, democratic State"? Does it also mean we must give up our democratic system of Government— as good or as bad as it may be— and our democratic system of parliament? Article 6.2 is also mentioned in the White Paper as one which may need to be amended or deleted. Article 6.2 says the powers of Government are exercisable only by or on the authority of the organs of State established by our Constitution. With membership of the EEC are we to give away these powers? This is one of the reasons we object to a European Parliament where we shall have eight seats in a Parliament of 206 members— then people tell us we shall participate in decision-making; ours will be a very puny voice indeed. With membership of the EEC do we give away powers to, say, a council of ministers where we may have only one minister in ten, and to a commission where we shall have one commissioner in 14? Remember that the commission has the sole right to initiate proposals for legislation. The Ministers may only propose amendments.

I have dealt with other Articles of the Constitution before: Article 15.2, Article 34.1, and Article 34.4.6 in regard to the decision of the Supreme Court. Article 29.5.2 says the State shall not be bound by any international agreement involving a charge upon public funds unless the terms of the agreement shall have been approved by Dáil Éireann. Are we to assume that in future this will not be approved by Dáil Éireann? Are we expected to surrender these constitutional rights for the very doubtful economic advantages to our industry and agriculture of EEC membership?

There are other constitutional changes that have been spoken about in recent times and not related at all to the possibility of Ireland becoming a member of the EEC. I shall refer to those in a few minutes but there is another constitutional change to which I should like to draw the attention of the Taoiseach and which might have to be made in the event of EEC membership and which is not referred to in the White Paper. Article 1 says:

The Irish nation hereby affirms its inalienable, indefeasible and sovereign right to choose its own form of Government, to determine its relations with other nations, and to develop its life political, economical and cultural, in accordance with its own genius and traditions.

The Irish nation is free to determine its relations with other nations. Does this mean that as members of the EEC we shall not be able to do so? Does it mean the commission or the Community can tell us with what other countries outside the EEC we can have trade? The Taoiseach should have this examined and certainly should comment on it. Could we, for example, if the Community are to have control over our trading arrangements, be allowed to give preferential treatment to the underdeveloped nations of Africa in an effort to assist their economies? Could we decide, for example, that we would have a special trading agreement with Nigeria or would the ruthless commissioners, or the Community, decide that this was against the rules of the EEC and prevent us from assisting any of the African countries like Nigeria, Ghana or Zambia, or any of the other countries? I say this, too, to the people with whom we have been speaking in the EEC about the constitutional changes that would be necessary if we became a member of the Community. But there will be others. They have been referred to by Deputy Cosgrave and by the Taoiseach in his Tralee speech and in an interview with Radio Éireann during the year. There appears to be, and I am certain there is, general approval with regard to the deletion of Article 44. The Taoiseach has suggested the change, as head of the Government, and I think I heard Cardinal Conway say that if this Article were deleted he would shed no tears. Neither would I. I believe that the part of the Article which gives the Catholic Church a special position is superfluous particularly in view of the subsection that follows which guarantees freedom of practice and freedom of conscience for all citizens. The Article should be amended not because somebody tells us it should be done but because we believe it should be done.

Every other clause in Article 44 gives adequate recognition and protection to persons of all religions. An all-party committee, established by Mr. Lemass when he was Taoiseach, were asked to consider things like this. They considered the Constitution and whilst they were not empowered to make a report or recommendations they made certain observations which were more or less unanimous. The committee also came up with some suggestion about divorce, the exact details of which I cannot remember. These things will have to be considered whether there is a North of Ireland or not, or whether there is difficulty between the 26 Counties and the Six Counties. This committee should be reconstituted and there should be a review of their observations and a full and frank discussion of the matter in the House.

Last week the Taoiseach intimated, and again we are all conscious of this, that the referendum which must be held would be a pretty difficult one for the public because there will be very many issues. A person may want to vote "yes" for this, or "no" for that, or "yes" for something else and I do not think we should have a global suggestion that the Constitution should be changed and then list the changes that are to be made. The people must be given an opportunity of voting on every single amendment that is proposed. This was one of the difficulties in 1936 when the present Constitution was before the people. I did not have a vote then but I know from people who had that they liked this section or they did not like that section. However, I am afraid that in 1936 it was a party political vote; those in Fianna Fáil and their supporters voted for the Constitution and those against Fianna Fáil voted against the Constitution. It is not a proper choice to present a global proposal and even if it means—mark you, I repeat this—even if it means that there would be three or four days at different times in the month devoted to a referendum of this sort it would be well worthwhile because the people must have an opportunity of voting for the Constitutional changes related to the EEC and they must have an opportunity of voting on other changes in the constitution that may be necessary. We also hope, no matter when this referendum is held, that the Taoiseach will stick to his word, and I am sure he will, or his opinion—he says it is being considered by the Government—and that there will be support within the Cabinet for our long-held view that the voting age should be 18 years.

I should also like to suggest that this referendum, or these referenda, should be held on a Sunday. There is no point in my listing the various people who are more or less disenfranchised because they have to be out of their own home towns on election days. A suitable Sunday in the year, certainly not during the holiday period, should be appointed in order to give everybody an opportunity of casting his vote. This should apply not alone in a referendum but in local and national elections also.

It has been said, I do not know whether it was said on my right or on my left, that the policy of the Labour Party with regard to the EEC is an isolationist one. As far as the Labour Party are concerned we have more contacts with European countries than any other party. It is no secret that for the last five or six years we have been members of the Socialist Internationale and we attend their conferences. This association is representative of 50 or 60 nations. We are described as being isolationist because we have this attitude towards membership of the EEC. I would say that the contrary is the case. If we join the European Economic Community we will be isolating ourselves from the rest of the world. Our attitude is certainly not one of isolation because we want to have contacts and to be free to trade with the other parts of the world. Again I would stress our concern for the third world, the underdeveloped countries of Africa and Asia, together of course with our concern for our own people, and what full membership will mean for them. We certainly are not advocating a policy of cutting Ireland off from contact with other countries. As I say, we want to be much freer, to have greater contact with other countries and particularly with those developing countries which need help which is not being given as generously as the supporters of the EEC world would have us believe.

We have to no objection to being associated with the EEC for trading purposes but again let me repeat we do not agree with the concept of a common market, we do not agree with the concept of an EEC as outlined by the Treaty of Rome and as has been practised by the Commissioners, and by the Community, over the last ten years. We do not believe that we are equipped economically for full membership. Time and time again members of the Fine Gael Party, and those outside who appear to have a vested interest in the EEC, pretend that we want to be an associate member. We know, and we have known for a long time, that we cannot be an associate member but I would ask somebody to ask the Taoiseach to have a further look, if he looked at it at all, at Article 238 of the Treaty of Rome. I do not believe it has been sufficiently explored. To me it does say that the Community can conclude and I quote—

agreements creating an association with a third country, embodying reciprocal rights and obligations, joint actions and special proceedings.

This is what the Labour Party believe this country should do in our present circumstances. We believe, and again let me repeat it—people have said that we are in adequate on this—that we are not fitted economically for full membership of the European Economic Community. We believe we should be associated with European as far as trading is concerned and we believe this is possible under the provisions of Article 238 of the Treaty of Rome. I should, therefore, like a clarification, if not from the Taoiseach, from a member of his Government or from Brussels, the seat of the EEC.

I do not want to talk at great length about the economy. I am not as competent in this respect as some of my colleagues and they will deal with it in fuller fashion, but most of us have got the Central Bank report, the report which highlighted the danger of inflation and talks about the consumer price index going up from 4.7 per cent in 1968 to 7.4 per cent in 1969 and forecasts that in 1970 the consumer price index will rise still higher. They remind us that this rise is above the international trend.

The Central Bank gives three reasons for this development: (1) the rise in money incomes, (2) the rapid rate of increase in public expenditure and (3) excess of credit creation. But they do not mention what I believe to be the main cause: the Government's taxation policy. Again, this was skated over very quickly by the Taoiseach when he talked about fiscal policy here two hours ago. At page 89 the Central Bank report says that the doubling of the turnover tax will result in even higher price rises than in 1969. The Government have been an active contributor to rising prices and we warned about this in our speeches on the Budget in April and May of this year.

The Budget Statement, as delivered by the Taoiseach, showed a casual approach to the problem of inflation. Inflation was dealt with in half a page at column 721 of volume 245 of the Official Report; the Taoiseach merely gave a definition of inflation and suggested what the consequences would be. He then proceeded to announce to the country that he was going to double the turnover tax. In my view, and in the view of my party, this was a very important contributory cause to the situation in which we now find ourselves. That was bad enough, but it seems now that there is little or no effort to control prices. People applauded the Minister for Industry and Commerce when he stepped in to prevent an increase in the price of drink. People would be much more concerned if the Minister for Industry and Commerce showed a little more activity with regard to the prices of foodstuffs.

I do not want to be cynical, but during the years both Government spokesmen and the banks have always seemed to be lecturing the public about inflation. That is all very well but the ordinary man-in-the-street hasn't a clue as to what they are talking about. Go out to Kildare Street and ask the first man you meet what inflation is and I know what it is. If you explain what will lay you 50 to one he will not it is to him he will quite rightly ask you what responsibility has he for the situation or how has he brought it about. He is not consulted. We could usefully discuss the imparting of knowledge to the type of people the Taoiseach and the Central Bank were talking about today, the ordinary man-in-the-street who does not know what inflation is and cannot understand why the responsibility should be placed on him. The reason is because not alone is there not sufficient democracy in this Parliament but there is no democracy in industry. How can the ordinary man-in-the-street be expected to know that if he wants to better himself it may have some effect on industry or on the economy as a whole? The time of this House could be well employed —the Labour Party recommendations with regard to parliamentary reform could well be adopted—discussing industrial democracy.

The worker is not allowed to participate. He is not told, and frankly, he does not know what it is all about. All he remembers are the speeches of the Taoiseach and the members of his party prior to June of last year when he was told the economy was booming and the message he got was that he was entitled to a better standard of living. Whether he is a bank clerk, cement worker, an agricultural worker or a factory worker, that was the message he got from the Taoiseach who, at the time, was fishing for votes—votes he undoubtedly got. He certainly does not understand the warnings given by the banks and the Government, who themselves have ignored their own advice.

I wonder how much restraint have the people who prepared this report shown with regard to their salaries or incomes over the last ten years. I wonder how many of these people in the Chamber of Commerce who admonish workers to tighten their belts and show restraint have themselves shown restraint over the last five, six or seven years. Will anybody know what their income are or what changes there have been in their incomes over the last five, six or seven years? The people who issue these warnings have themselves been responsible for the creation of a situation of inflation — the Government by deliberately increasing prices and the banks, which are now engaged in a lock-out at a time when the Central Bank Report says a credit policy is necessary in order to restrain inflation. Because of the lock-out the people are creating their own credit by just writing cheques.

This is the situation in which we find ourselves, a situation in which we get a certain amount of free information from those who control the banks and from those who are in charge of government. It is irresponsible of the banks to allow this lock-out to continue. There are many people here and outside who, when they talk about strikes, think only in terms of workers and trade unions. I do not say this applies to all Members in this House, but many fall into the old Victorian trap of blaming strikes on workers. The worker is entitled to bargain for the use of his hands or his brains in the same was as those who buy and sell cattle, those who buy and sell cars and those who buy and sell houses; they try to get the best possible bargain and they are not concerned about admonitions from governments or banks. The chap who has something to sell and is not allowed to get the proper price for it is the man, it is argued, who will run the country into ruin.

Another interesting feature is the statement to the effect that the bank dispute has rendered it extremely difficult to apply monetary policy just when it is most needed. If that is the case then the banks should try to induce some of their fellow-directors who happen to be chairmen or presidents of their banks to bring an end to this lock-out as quickly as possible.

There is a crisis in employment. Unemployment in the industrial and services sector in May, 1970, was higher than 1969, even when allowance is made for the effects of the cement dispute. Nobody can say that the increase in unemployment was caused by the cement dispute because the report says that, even when there is allowance made for it, our rate of unemployment in 1969 was 6.2 per cent and in May, 1970, it had risen to 7.1 per cent.

Therefore, we have a situation in which prices and unemployment are rising and it looks as if we shall retain our unenviable record in Europe in regard to these matters. The Government cannot evade their responsibility; they must act. A point about governments, probably not peculiar to this Government, is that when things are going right they claim all credit but when things go wrong they try to blame somebody else.

They have their problems and we have an appreciation of what these problems mean. They have a problem with regard to the north, with regard to inflation, the bank dispute, the EEC and the problem of the disarray in their own party. It is a sorry mess that must be corrected by themselves. The Government should get down to the job of governing because that is their responsibility. This time last year they represented themselves as the most confident and competent Government in the history of the State. They have shown neither confidence nor competence but have become a mere remnant of the great Fianna Fáil Party they once believed themselves to be. That was at a time when they boasted of the superability of the Blaneys, the Haugheys and the Ó Moráins.

We also have responsibility as an Opposition party but we cannot exercise that responsibility to the full unless we are allowed to participate in a reformed and truly democratic Parliament. With respect, I must say that I do not regard this House as a truly democratic Parliament and it will not be so until it is reformed. Until this happens I do not think the Opposition can play the full role the people expect of them.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

In the last contribution we have heard and in contributions that have been made in recent months Deputies have concerned themselves with the Constitution, which creates the framework under which we work and by which we legislate for the people who have elected us to this House.

Possibly because the Constitution is an extremely detailed document there is much misunderstanding of its terms. I do not intend to carry out a detailed analysis except in so far as it may relate to the general theme of my remarks this evening. In this House we are concerned to ensure that certain sacred rights are guarded and protected: they are the rights of free speech, rights of association, rights of freedom to form trade unions and so on. Often these rights are paraded as absolute rights, not limited either by the Constitution or by their own terms. When we speak of groups outside this House, to which Deputy Corish referred, we sometimes find that Deputies suggest such groups should be allowed free rein for their discussion, free rein to have their meetings wherever they wish and free rein not to be subjected to what is sometimes labelled "repressive legislation". However, it should be remembered that these fundamental rights are, in fact, written into the Constitution.

Article 40, section 6, subsection 1º states:

The State guarantees liberty for the exercise of the following rights, subject to public order and morality:—

The Article ensures the right of citizens to express freely their convictions and opinions, subject to public order and morality; the right of citizens to assemble peaceably and without arms, subject to public order and morality; the right of citizens to form associations and unions, again subject to public order and morality. In regard to the right to express opinions, the Article states that this right shall not be used to undermine public order or morality or the authority of the State.

I do not want to start a discussion on what might be more appropriate to the Criminal Justice Bill, but it is important that we should state at the outset our concern for the type of society for which we are legislating. We must be courageous enough to accept that it is our fundamental responsibility to ensure that we should guarantee these rights, subject to the community good and to community order and morality.

There has been much discussion on this question of law and order. By an unfortunate association with areas such as the North of Ireland and some parts of South Africa, this expression "law and order" is used to justify repression and severe restrictions on individual rights. To that extent some of these dissident groups have been able to say: "Yes, you, too, have been talking about law and order and you are just as repressive in your approach as anyone else." A thought strikes me that were we in this country to stop speaking about law and order it would deprive some of those people who accuse us of being repressive of one of their most consistent arguments. One might say that those dissident groups are extremely consistent in their labels and tags; one hears frequently terms such as "imperialism", "capitalism", references to "police brutality" and so on. They appear to have sown the seeds throughout the world and they have been reaping a good harvest.

Instead, we might speak about what the Constitution was concerned with; it was concerned with community rights and community responsibility. We should never forget that all rights are subject to responsibility and, should we feel inclined to use this matter as a stick against the Government for creating in this country an environment that does not satisfy the dissident groups, we should not forget that we have responsibility to the vast majority of our people who will never be active on the streets. We have to ensure that that society for the majority of our people is maintained in a secure, happy and ordered fashion.

There will be much new legislation in this House in the near future, whether in connection with forcible entry or the Criminal Justice Bill. In regard to the latter Bill, our attitude to the Bill, as first introduced, is important and I am sure what Deputies have to say on this matter will be reflected in the Bill in its final form. The attitudes of Deputies, in so far as they reflect the attitude of the public, is important and this is the place all matters should be discussed. I agree with Deputy Corish that our fundamental job is to legislate and to create by legislation the machinery under which the organs of the State, whether business, agriculture, trade unionist, judicial or otherwise can function. It is not necessarily merely a function to debate.

Much that has passed in this session of the Dáil appears to have been on the basic misunderstanding that we have here a forum for debating the rights and wrongs of everything that happens in this country. It is completely naïve to suggest that if there is a strike we are the people to fix it. This poses the notion, which is completely unrealistic, that we who are elected to legislate should be the ones to come in as the deus ex machina, to come in from the clouds to solve the problems that other people cannot solve themselves, in fact to solve problems that the machinery provided by this Oireachtas has not succeeded in solving. It is very important that we realise here that it is just useless verbiage to suggest that strikes and demonstrations are matters for us to deal with here. Our job is to create here an environment in which, I hope, there will be fewer strikes and demonstrations.

I am not for a moment suggesting that strikes are in the same category as some of the demonstrations I am talking about. I will concede immediately that the right to strike is a fundamental and proper part of our legislation. When I mention these dissident groups, these small minority groups that sometimes speak with loud mouths, I do not want them to be associated with workers who are withdrawing their labour. I have no such association in my mind and I hope it will not be understood as such. Here we must recognise the limits on the effectiveness of our work. I would agree with Deputy Corish that we can do much more streamlining, but there is no point in pretending, as I think Deputy Corish would accept, that we can achieve everything. I had a certain sympathy with Deputy Paddy Burke when he said: "God knows we will be here all day every day." Where would we get the time to inform ourselves, to achieve all that people sometimes say we should achieve? Let us be realistic and know the limits of the function of Parliament.

The British Parliament meets five days a week.

I am not talking about the length of time alone. That is not my worry. We could meet six days a week for that matter. I am talking about what we could achieve even if we did meet five days a week. I am personally in favour of sitting whatever length of time seems to be appropriate, and here I think there may be grounds for review, but it is important that, whatever time we sit, we should be doing useful, positive work and not merely throwing words to the winds. We like to discuss every problem not just in this country but as it arises in every country. Deputy Corish must acknowledge that his benches particularly, which have not always spoken with one voice in recent times, are concerned with the ills of the world. It is fair that they should be but I feel they are under a misapprehension if they think that this House with all the pressures of time which are on it, can effectively deal with the ills of the world.

It is to me a little inconsistent that a party which strongly opposes—and here Deputy Corish, may I suggest, has not listened to his fellow socialists in Europe—our joining the European Community, a community which would give us an effective voice, apart from other advantages or disadvantages, in world affairs, is the very party that wants to refer to world affairs every day in this House. The Literary and Historical Society in UCD and the "Hist." in Trinity can do this every night, but how effective are they? We must at least remember that useless words are a burden on this House here and that we have been sent here to do effectively whatever we do.

For that reason I would say that the Members of this House, with their warts and all, are the people who should ensure that Irish society—and I am speaking I would say for about 90 per cent of Irish society, even 95 per cent—those who want to have normal lives, who want to get a normal chance of earning their bread, of having normal leisure, are protected. We are the people to ensure here that there is no pandering on our part or no kowtowing on our part or no seeking of ephemeral popularity by commending certain dissident groups. We must be responsible here and say: "We stand by the society we represent." Critical words about that society or its organs should be measured very carefully.

People talk about matters like civil disobedience and the principles governing it which have apparently been recently established. One or two Labour Deputies would know a little about that. I would ask them from where were these principles derived? By what right have they been introduced into this society or any other society? Is it that the principles, as they are called, are meant to be principles which guarantee to a dissident vocal group, the right to interfere with the majority, the opportunity to express their views and to suppress the rights of the majority of the people to enjoy a normal life? So much for the environment in which this House should work. I have said this by way of a preface to legislation which, I am sure, will be introduced here in the next session. I hope that the arguments against some of the provisions of that legislation will at least be responsible and that we will not have the old bogeys of State police and police brutality and various people being beaten.

Notice taken that 20 Members were not present; House counted, and 20 Members being present,

I referred to certain Deputies of the Labour Party, Deputy Conor Cruise-O'Brien in particular, and suggested that when we come to discuss further legislation dealing with the order in our society we should hear from Deputy Cruise-O'Brien the whole basis of the principles of civil disobedience which apparently are sometimes regarded as being above the positive law that we are elected to legislate here. I trust that is enough for the record.

I thought you were talking about Gandhi.

Or Chairman Mao.

Mr. J. Lenehan

Are you not their disciples?

Deputy Corish referred at some length to the functions of this House and the way it appeared the Government were preventing the Opposition or, indeed, even the Fianna Fáil Party, from doing what they were elected to do. I would remind Deputy Corish, as Deputy Dowling has already reminded him, that, when it comes to democratic expression of opinion in this House, we, who have a majority have to be satisfied with one-third of the time for expression of views in the House. Members of the Labour Party, in particular, choose to lecture us from time to time on the subject of democratic expression of opinion in this House. They do not acknowledge this restriction: they are so few in number that they do not have to compete for the same amount of talking time as do our very large number of Deputies.

We need a further examination of the committee system—I would back any study of this—so that we could do more effectively what we were elected to do. I should not be happy however that all the effective work would be done outside this Chamber and all the sermonising inside this Chamber.

The Deputy was a member of the Council of Europe?

I have not had that privilege.

The committee is very effective there. It is brought on to the floor of the House.

It was suggested we should nearly run the semi-State companies. This is a matter that is under some review to have information relating to their affairs. Some of the expressions I have heard in this House would lead us to believe that any one of us could almost assume—with our lack of time and lack of facility—the running of these companies and do the job better than people who can devote their full time to it and who are paid for the work. If we could appreciate the limit of time, the limit of knowledge and the absolute limit of ability which we may have in certain fields we might better appreciate our own limitations so far as this is concerned. We have endeavoured to solve the bank strike. The sooner a system is devised whereby we shall clearly understand our functions, the better it will be for us all.

Many of us have questions to raise on the subject of EEC association. Deputy Corish will have to concede that, whatever organised associations they have with their fellow-socialists in Europe, apparently these associations have not rubbed off on the socialist party in Ireland. Perhaps the majority view of our socialist party is not socialist at all.

The Parliamentary Secretary is trying to have it both ways, is he not?

Deputy Corish has it two ways over there, as well. Recently, on the EEC topic, the leader, I think, of the Upper House of the Dutch Parliament—and, I understand, the leader of the socialist party in Holland not so long ago—expressed his views on our opportunity in Europe. He claimed to be utterly surprised at the attitude of our socialist party in that it was totally out of accord with that of other socialist parties of Europe, particularly as socialist parties are supposed to be more concerned with international affairs than other parties.

We might be able to do something to influence the world in which we live were we a member of such a large association, an association that could do something towards easing world tensions and which could do something positive towards maintaining world peace. What do we get in this House from the Labour Party on the EEC debate? They are fairly good at trotting out document and doctrine that we shall have to change this section of our Constitution and give up our sovereignty. This sovereignty has been the basis of prolonged arguments during the course of this debate, as if sovereignty were something they had recently discovered and that the rest of us do not understand. A man is sovereign in his own house. He lays down the laws in the house. As soon as he starts to associate with his neighbour, he is not so sovereign. As soon as he associates with the citizens of his own town he is not as sovereign as he is in his own house. The same can be applied to national and international relations. If we become members of an international association such as EEC it will mean that the absolute authority we share here now and enjoy for ourselves will be changed, altered, amended or in some other way limited.

However, to become part of a bigger society would mean that that sovereignty would be much more effective. Then, maybe, our attitude towards the Third World, Nigeria, South Africa, could be made positive instead of merely talking about it. A situation could arise where so much of the wasted words we utter in this House would not be wasted and that what we would say and do would be an effective preliminary to what we would achieve in a European association. I do not intend to debate the full merits or otherwise of membership of EEC. However, I am afraid the old sovereignty argument will not wash any longer. If that were the only criterion, we could withdraw into a provincial milieu and be more autonomous—and the smaller we become the more autonomous we become. That is so evident that it hardly needs argument. Nonetheless, surprisingly, so many people on the Labour benches appear to overlook it.

It must have been a cod of a Constitution in the first place. They are prepared to scrap ten points in it.

It was somewhat in advance of the Treaty of Rome. No one respects more than I do the political foresight of our President but it would be too much to suggest that, at the time, he knew that the Treaty of Rome would be formulated. If we are going to rely on this argument as being the reason why we should not go into the EEC I would accept it would mean changing what President de Valera thought at that time was the effective basis for our society.

We should like to know what he thinks now.

With regard to industrial relations in general and the Europeans, we have much to learn here. One always hears the notion of rights described here when it comes to trade unions. I am not saying all capable or positive trade unionists think in those terms at all, but many of them do; many of the Labour Party do. We hear about the right to strike, the right to bargain for labour. Towards the end of the last century, trade unions were regarded as conspiracies. They were deprived of any right. Of their nature they were regarded as criminal. They started on the long road to rid themselves of this criminal association and to secure recognition. First, from about the end of the last century a trade union, as constituted, was no longer under the Conspiracy and Protection of Property Act, and was freed from the disability of being, shall I say, a conspiratorial association.

They fought for that right and they achieved it. It is a very happy thing that they did achieve it. They subsequently fought for other rights—rights to withdraw labour, rights to negotiate and various other rights. They achieved this under the Trades Disputes Act of 1906, I think. This is the important point. These rights—again like the other rights I spoke about in the Constitution—were not absolute rights, were not fundamental rights.

May I refer in particular to the rights of picketing? This House has to consider this. I, and I am sure all Members of the House, would stand as long as possible in this House to ensure the trade unions' right to picket in an appropriate dispute. It has been clearly established that this right to picket initially was a right to communicate information. In fact, it was never changed, but tradition has changed it. It was a right to communicate information to those doing business. Deputy Corish or anyone else can tell me this has never been changed beyond that.

It was certainly never intended to be a right to intimidate—and I am not suggesting it is being used as that now. As long as the fight has gone on, and whatever rights have been achieved, it was acceptable only in a dispute between employer and employee as to conditions of service. Then a picket as such for the purpose of communicating information was a just and legal and effective means of doing this. We have seen a situation arise here now—because of what I do not know; perhaps lack of discipline within the trade union movement—in which a picket is accepted not just as part of our industrial relations problem but as part of the whole atmosphere and environment.

What does the Parliamentary Secretary mean by "discipline within the trade union movement"?

I mean "discipline" in the ordinary accepted use of the word.

For instance, to ensure that members of a union do not picket where there is an unofficial dispute as it is called, where there is not a dispute between employer and employee.

I am talking about an official dispute.

I am talking about an unofficial dispute. I said earlier that I would stand here, as many other Deputies in this House would, to ensure that that right to picket was maintained. I am talking about the spirit of the picket. I know that many trade unionists are concerned about this. It is something we should all start thinking about. Sometimes the picket is spread to a firm which is not concerned in the dispute at all. This is one of the problems we have had, one of the problems to which, apparently, we have not been able to stand up. May I say that in many ways this shows the tolerance of the State. Those pickets, as such, are not lawful. They are unlawful.

The biggest problem is the dispute which lasts too long.

When we start talking about rights we should also start talking about responsibility. May I come now to the example that is to be found in the European structure? Our trade unions have had to fight and fight hard for the rights they have. It is good that they have them. They had a situation not so long ago in Sweden——

You would be surprised at the people they had to fight.

That may be. Our society has become very enlightened over the past number of years, and particularly in the past 12 or 13 or 14 years.

Certainly.

They had this problem in other countries, too, notably in Sweden. They realised that they could not allow the situation to continue which we have at present on our hands. We are jeopardising our whole economy, our whole potential as a productive economy, and our potential as a wealthy State by these constant strikes that arise. Then we are asked to settle them in this House.

The Swedes had the answer and it is about time we started to consider the same answer here, that is, to place the responsibility for industrial relations fairly and squarely where it belongs, on the people directly concerned, the employers and the unions. This is a personal view but I honestly feel that the State probably should not be as directly involved in industrial relations even to the extent it is at present. No matter what we do here they can always come back and say: "Look at what you people are doing for yourselves." We even hear people saying: "You work only 25 or 30 hours a week and you expect trade unionists to work 40 hours." We should decide our business here in the best interests of the State but I do not think our conditions should be regarded as comparable with the conditions that apply in other areas.

The Swedes formed a joint labour council representative of both the trade union and the employer organisations. They ensured that this joint labour council—I may not be using exactly the right term because it is quite some time since I read this— would in agreement lay down general guidelines—and the people who were doing it were the people concerned— for the nation at the beginning of each year, guidelines under which the local negotiations would continue. These local negotiations have to be conducted within the framework of these general guidelines.

There is always a government chairman.

That is as far as it goes.

It is tripartite.

The government chairman is on his own, as the Deputy will appreciate, in those circumstances where people are working together. If we could start thinking of these as being common interests, not segregated interests, we would not need a government chairman using his veto or his casting vote.

We have him all the same.

Experience has proved that the government chairman did not have to do what the Deputy is implying.

Very often he did not.

Universally; because if he did it neither side would be satisfied. I hope the Labour Party will take it on this basis——

I thought the Parliamentary Secretary had finished about us.

No. When any trade union legislation is being considered here it should not be taken as being a deprivation of the rights of one side or an addition to the rights of the other. They should be seen as honest efforts to achieve a situation whereby the people responsible will be responsible, and whereby in the event of agreement being breached these people will ensure that the penalties are imposed. I do not need to tell anyone about the exclusion, for instance, of trade unionists from even criminal responsibility or certainly civic responsibility which would apply to other people. Everyone is aware that they are immune by virtue of being trade unionists in certain instances from responsibility for doing things which would be offences if done by other people.

Certain rights would have to be conceded by all concerned. The same would apply to employers' associations. If and when a breach did occur —and God knows we had some breaches—the people concerned, the joint labour council, would be the people to ensure that the penalties were imposed, and to ensure that this did not recur. The result has proved happy in Sweden. In Sweden the trade unions opposed this strongly, not unexpectedly, first, some 20 years ago. They are now the people who are most strongly supporting the maintenance of this structure because they know it imposes responsibility all round and that they themselves are the people who are effecting the agreement.

On a personal note I feel—and I have seen many examples of it here— that if we can create that kind of machinery here so that the Government will simply provide the information, the facilities and the legislation, we will be going a long way towards solving many of our problems. As long as the situation continues as it has been continuing—and there is no sign that it will change, despite the best efforts of the Labour Court and the various conciliation councils——

Seán Lemass started it all with his 12 per cent. That is true, as the Parliamentary Secretary will see if he looks back.

There is a perfect example of what I was saying. If we could get this problem out of the House they would not be able to say that Seán Lemass or anyone else started it. They would have to say the trade unionists or the employers started it.

If you create false expectations you will get false expectations.

I am not worried about politicians or even the former Taoiseach being criticised but, as long as we have that convenient old flogging post on the basis that we started it or you started it, so long will the people concerned forget to face up to their ultimate responsibility.

I do not need to remind Labour Deputies that there has been a very prominent socialist government in Sweden for many years. They will probably set themselves up as the best example of what all socialists would like to be. I hope our international socialists will some time adopt some of the habits of their colleagues in Europe. Future sessions may give us an opportunity of discussing objectively what such legislation could achieve so that we would not come in here to make useless suggestions such as, for instance, that the Minister for Labour should go out and solve the bank strike or the maintenance strike.

In their provisions they have an assurance that a strike, as a right, cannot be used unless, I think, at least 5 or 10 per cent of the workers involved in the total industry agree to it. The Deputy is shaking his head but he can check up on it himself.

The Swedish system of industrial relations is entirely different from the Irish one.

Of course it is. That is what I have been saying for the past quarter of an hour.

The Parliamentary Secretary should go away and read about it.

I am saying that those who should know more about it should try to introduce it. We would never have had the strike that crippled all our industries, the maintenance strike, leaving so many people workless last year, if we had at that time the responsible association and responsible machinery that they have in so many European countries.

As regards the function of the House, I should like to refer to something that possibly does not directly concern me. I shall not go into details on it. We are all concerned about using our time most effectively. I sympathise very much with Deputies who must attend the House, make speeches and not have adequate facilities for correspondence and other work. All of them would agree that they are only anxious to do the best they can, given proper facilities. I hope we shall see these introduced here as far as possible. This session has seen discussion on health legislation and that will probably be the forerunner in this way of much other legislation. It is particularly a forerunner when one talks about the regional health boards. I know that many on my own side of the House who are members of local authorities will not necessarily agree with my views. However, in modern society the actual powers of local Authorities are so limited, particularly in the case of urban councils, town commissioners and even county councils, and the time the members have to attend meetings and consider what they want to achieve is so limited, that I think we must begin to concede that a more sophisticated streamlined approach to regional government, whether in the field of health or education or anything else is only around the corner. I hope it will be introduced so that those who will serve on such bodies will have an opportunity of serving more effectively than they can at present because of the existing machinery.

This House may need reform in some ways. I do not wish to dwell on that now but to say simply that the local authority system is much more in need of reform, particularly as members are sometimes automatically, by virtue of their local authority membership, appointed to educational or vocational education committees, health committees and so on. Nobody can be a master of everything and I think we each like to be a master of at least one or two things. Therefore, I know that those engaged in politics at any level would like to be sure that whatever they are doing they are doing it with authority, that their wings are not being clipped and that they are doing it with the benefit of knowledge and experience.

I should like to come back to the Constitution before concluding. Some of the matters that are being discussed in regard to the Constitution now, apart from EEC, are the constitutional provisions relating to divorce, to the special position of the Catholic Church and relating to votes at 18. Like many other Members of the House, I witnessed the debate recently between the Tánaiste and Mr. Brian Faulkner, the Northern Minister. I shall pay Mr. Faulkner the compliment of treating him as I would treat any Irishman in this House, and, while we must always speak prudently, I want to pay him the compliment of contradicting the implication he made. I do this because he referred particularly to three clauses in the Constitution which apparently are regarded as being indicative of the fact that we do not have civil rights.

The first clause which appears to cause concern relates to divorce. Here, our Constitution is consistent. It does say that no law should be enacted providing for divorce. It also goes on to say in Article 41 that the State recognises the family as the natural, primary and fundamental unit group of society and as a moral institution possessing inalienable and imprescriptible rights antecedent and superior to all positive law. We lay special emphasis on what we may call the moral place of the family. What I want to ask anyone, be he American, Irish, English or German, who suggests that the lack of divorce deprives people of civil rights is: has he considered whether this facility, which might be available to the few and used by even fewer, would not affect the majority who would never use it or wish to have it, and, in fact, the whole society of the majority to such an extent that the ultimate result would be a far worse society than the society which excluded divorce in the first instance?

I am using this opportunity to tell Mr. Brian Faulkner that it is not good enough to put up this case. It is fairly well known that the vast majority of what is described as the majority in the north and the minority in the south do not want divorce and are as much concerned to ensure that the healthy type of society we have, in which the family plays a very important part, continues to exist to ensure that fundamental rights are protected.

Let us look at some of the nations —here I hope nobody will misunderstand what I have to say—or at some of the large urban areas in the USA. We must all sympathise with the US because it is such a conglomerate, multi-racial society which has given a home to all the nations of the earth. In the large city areas there, one of the problems that has given rise to all the problems that exist in the US, whether drug addiction or criminal activity of one kind or another, is that there is no family unit. The price they may pay for this facility for divorce and the price which, perhaps, our neighbours in England are paying, is the lack of the normal happy environment in which we live.

Who will deny that much of the world's trouble at present stems from young people who are left to fend for themselves without knowing what control, guidance, authority or discipline mean? There is no such thing as absolute freedom. Discipline is not necessarily repressive. It must always be tempered with freedom and freedom with discipline. So many young people have been thrown out into the world because of this right of divorce and these young people have created terrible problems for themselves and for others who, possibly in some instances, have never had any association with them. When we discuss divorce and when someone casually from the other end of this island or anywhere else says: "There they have no civil rights because they do not have divorce", we shall probably tell them: "Here we have civil rights." Here we have a society which ensures that people can walk safely on the streets, which ensures that every man belongs to the family unit, which ensures that the family belongs to the other unit, society. The whole argument about divorce would be conducted in that full knowledge. May I personally express the view that the cure would be worse than the disease.

Another matter which arises out of that discussion and which has been mentioned quite a good deal here is the special position of the Catholic Church. If we are to have a dialogue with people in the north let us have it on a rational basis. It is ignoring reality for anyone to suggest that the Catholic Church, beyond the actual statement in the Constitution, has a special position here. On the contrary, one need only look at our judicial framework, one need only look at this House or at the Seanad and its representation from Trinity College which was regarded as being a minority-religion college. They will see that the Catholic Church has no special position, that at the time the Constitution was framed the provision referred simply to the numbers involved.

I sympathise with Deputy Michael Pat Murphy when he feels that many of his colleagues in the Labour Party are selling him down the river. As has already been said by the Taoiseach and by the constitutional committee, of which I was a member, this clause can go in the morning, because as it exists it means nothing. It means nothing because it goes on to say, and it is important that this should be spelled out:

The State shall not impose any disability or make any discrimination on the ground of religious profession, belief or status.

Then further on it says:

Legislation providing State aid for schools shall not discriminate between schools under the management of different religious denominations ...

It is apparently only in relation to the numerical position of the Catholic Church that the provision in question was written. The sooner it is gone the better. No one in our party or anywhere else believes it represents repression of any minority, because it does not. I cannot wait for the day when the referendum will be held. There are other denominations not mentioned in this Article at all. We did recognise the Church of Ireland, the Presbyterian Church in Ireland, the Methodist Church in Ireland, the Religious Society of Friends in Ireland as well as the Jewish congregations. There are quite a few who have come in since then who are not specifically mentioned. The fact that a denomination is mentioned in the Constitution does not, as has been proved beyond yea or nay, give you any special place. Therefore I say to Mr. Brian Faulkner, that is no argument in support of lack of civil rights in this part of Ireland.

Why was it put in originally?

I was not there. There are some great students of history here and if at the age of two and a half years I could have understood why it was put in I could relate it to the Deputy. Since I was only that age I do not know why it was there, but I am giving a few reasons why it can go out.

Another matter which has been related to civil rights is votes at 18. It has been suggested that because we have not brought in votes at 18 we are depriving people of civil rights. Again let me refer to the Constitutional Committee. If anyone looks up the annexe to it they will find the countries that had votes at 18 and the countries that had votes at 21 in 1966 and most of the countries that had votes at 18 knew precious little about civil rights. Most of them belonged to the Eastern European bloc where votes at 18 or 50 were not worth very much. The majority of the western democracies then had votes at 21—Britain, America, Germany, ever so many of them. We are told now because we have votes at 21 we are depriving people of civil rights. May I say that personally I am in favour of votes at 18?

It is about time the Parliamentary Secretary made up his mind.

I made up my mind long ago.

The Parliamentary Secretary never said so.

The Parliamentary Secretary never said what?

He never said in this House he was in favour of votes at 18. His Party has not yet declared it.

I will say so if and when I think I should say so. May I say personally I shall be open to persuasion or to a cogent argument either way? What I am saying is, the fact that we have not votes at 18 here now is no argument at all that civil rights do not exist in this country. When introducing votes at 18 and any other necessary provisions we shall have to bring in amendments to our Constitution. This is the benefit of having a detailed Constitution. We cannot bring in such amendments overnight. Having regard to the expense involved we must wait until we can introduce as many amendments as possible. It is laughable to hear someone from the other part of this island say that they introduced votes at 18 by legislation—we do not know whether they were guaranteed or encouraged by other sources—and that they have votes at 18 while we have them down here only for the old ones over 21. I pay that compliment to Mr. Brian Faulkner, the Northern Minister, of treating him as another Irishman and contradicting him here as if he were a Member of this House, as I hope he will be one day. Having done that I should like to try to allay some of the fears which anyone whom he represents or which he and others like him may have.

It has been suggested there has been a restriction of the right of this House to discuss certain issues. The Taoiseach has come in for some criticism from the Opposition simply because he did not, for the third time within 12 months, allow a debate on Northern Ireland. As the Kerryman says, talk is cheap. It is not enough to talk; one must also act with responsibility. In so far as we can discuss the situation on this motion, I should like to repeat what the Taoiseach has said. Any of us here who think the genius we happen to have, the nationalist genius of which we are all so proud, is the only Irish genius that exists, is blind. Anglo-Irish literature is known throughout the world because so many of what we call the Protestant genius, the minority genius—I hate to use the word "Protestant" because it is completely irrelevant in this instance —contributed so much. The Young Irelanders and the United Irishmen, Davis, Tone, Emmet and others contributed to the foundation of this State. Many of these Irishmen did not derive from the native Irish genius. Padraig Pearse did not derive from it and this is probably what made him a greater Irishman; and some of those who fell with him did not derive from the native Irish genius. When this, the greatest Irishman of all time, came from a different tradition many years before us, is it too much to hope we could say to other Irishmen of a different tradition at present: "Your tradition and our tradition are no traditions on their own"? Only if both traditions are interlocked, working towards a full realisation of what this country represents, will we have a real tradition.

None of us can contribute in isolation. I can see, and I am sure many older members, those who have been here for years, can feel the frustration of being isolated. They have a feeling of frustration because they cannot work in a United Ireland environment. We want to ensure that all the people in the north, whether they be the minority or the majority—the religious aspect is totally irrelevant—will see that nothing we intend here is aimed at depriving them of anything, that everything we intend here is aimed at sharing with them, that everything we set about doing here will be as a means towards achieving common interests and common harmony.

I am glad to see that, apart from waiting for troubled times—I am not going to talk about holidays as they did before in the North of Ireland—many of the lads are going to the North of Ireland for their holidays this year. I would suggest also that we too go and discuss with the Members of Stormont normal day-to-day affairs. Let us have an inter-Parliamentary committee of them and ourselves, let us have an Irish inter-Parliamentary committee. Let them see that we are not the type of repressive Romish devils that some people like to paint us as being. "Romish" is a word that has very seldom been heard in this House, happily, because it is a word that does not apply to the society in which we live. The tag, and so many tags like it, is the creation of fear, apprehension and suspicion and the creation of a desire to retain the old ways. If each one of us can play his part in normal association with these people, treating them like Irishmen, contradicting when contradiction is necessary, agreeing where agreement is necessary, then we will have done quite a lot.

I could speak, and I would like to speak, at greater length about our association with our fellow Irishmen in the north. However, I should like to reiterate that this party, and I am sure every party here, has the fundamental ultimate aim of unification. I speak of unification in the fullest sense, not merely the fulfilment of national aspirations but a working together to achieve progress, security and good living. If that happens I do not think the people in the North of Ireland will be concerned about the difference between our unemployment benefits and theirs. I hope we will not be attracting them by unemployment benefits. I hope we will continue to work here, and with them, so that we can attract them by offering them the opportunity of working as Irishmen, without subvention from any other country, to develop the resources of this nation of ours.

I gather that this debate is a traditional end of the year review. I have not been in the House for a year but there is no doubt that the half-year for which I have been here has been the half-year with the action in it. I have heard most of the speeches so far and the theme appears to be a mixture of the Six Counties plus our economic situation. As the Taoiseach said, the two themes are linked and are relevant. A lot of words have been spoken about the Six Counties here and in other Parliaments and places and a lot more will be spoken, but a lot of these words are spoken without knowledge. I learned this last night when Deputy Harte and myself attended a political meeting in Carrickmore, County Tyrone. We went there as spectators and not as participants, ironically enough. Even though the meeting was in Ireland we went as spectators. We were on our way here and, having heard about this meeting, decided to go to it.

I was aware that the purpose of the meeting was to call for the release of Miss Bernadette Devlin. I attended wondering, and somewhat cynical at the very pointlessness of it because I knew that she was secure under lock and key in Armagh Jail and that the might of the British Common-wealth was available to ensure that she would stay safely under lock and key. Consequently I reckoned that the meeting would be pointless, an exercise in futility, a sort of tribal ritual of pointless protest that they seem to have up there and which seems to be the norm of political activity there. I say "seems to be" because all we know about up there are the headlined protests. However, it was a completely different experience to attend that meeting and to realise that this was not a call for a release, that this was a protest against the oppressive system that caused her imprisonment, a system which is so oppressive that it is a wonder there are still people able to protest and protest vigorously against it. I was chastened when I realised that that was the true import and spirit of the meeting.

There were speeches by Northern Ireland Opposition politicians and they made very clear the predicament they face in representing their people. In listening to them making their position clear I realised what an easy task we have representing constituencies in an ordered and orderly society. They recalled the amount of oppression that actually exists and which in particular existed last August at the time Miss Devlin committed the acts—I will not say offences—for which she is presently in jail. They recalled that up there the minority do not at the moment have— they may have in the future—and reasonably could not be expected to have confidence in their police force, in the impartiality of that force. They recited what happened on several occasions when this police force rampaged through the Bogside area of Derry. There is no doubt that one man —Devenney was his name—lost his life as a result of a police beating.

When the troubles started and the riots broke out last year Miss Devlin was there as an MP with a duty to represent her people. She was aware of the attitude of the police and the forces of the Crown towards her people and she could see the hostility with which they were dealing with her people. She was their TD, to put it that way. What was she to do? What lead was she to give her people? I do not think, having heard her people's side of the story, that she could have done anything but what she did. All I can say is that, thank God, we, the Members of this House, are not in the position of having to make that decision, of having to fight personally to protect our constituents.

I heard, too, of the oppressive legislation extant in Northern Ireland—the Criminal Justice (Temporary Provisions) Bill is the title of it—designed to give the court power to impose mandatory sentences of imprisonment. There is no alternative of a fine and the minimum period is six months. The offences can be committed for riotous assembly and unlawful meetings. Riotous assembly, as things stand, could be charged if a member of the British Army decided that three or four fellows meeting at a street corner are engaged in riotous assembly. The experience of the people is that the word of the policeman or the soldier is invariably taken by the courts and they say openly that perjured evidence is commonplace. There have been reforms but, to date, they have been only skin deep and society up there is still, by and large, an oppressed society in which a wealthy ruling class seeks to hold on to power.

As I said, when I attended that meeting, I went there in a slightly cynical frame of mind. I apologise to the people there for having gone there in that frame of mind. That frame of mind was due to the fact that I was ignorant of the real situation in the Six Counties. We have read so much of the terrible things that have happened there that the reality has ceased to have any meaning and, while we are living in the same land, we have not been affected in our ordinary daily lives. I was surprised to find myself so out of touch because I have always regarded myself as having perhaps more knowledge of the Six Counties than have a great many people in the Republic. I spent a large part of my childhood in the Six Counties. My mother was from one of the Six Counties. I am proud to say an uncle of mine was a candidate for the Nationalist Party—when the party was respected. I studied for some time in Queen's University.

All this should give me a pretty deep knowledge of the Six Counties, or so I thought. I knew the Catholic mentality and the Protestant mentality. I was not altogether sympathetic to the Catholic mentality because I felt at times that it was a ghetto mentality. I knew there was bigotry on the Catholic side as well as on the Protestant side. The oppression that existed then was not open oppression, as it is now, and it was not physically violent oppression, as it is now. We down here have, I think, forgotten that.

It is very important that we should get to know that part of the country better and realise the real predicament of the people up there. It is important that this nation should be guided into co-operation and collaboration with the nation in the north. I call it a nation because the label does not really matter. It is a nation whatever quibble we may have about the terms de jure or de facto. It has a government and, if we want to do business with the north, we must do business with the government in the north.

I am glad to see an interdepartmental committee has been set up or revived to look into ways and means by which the common interests of both parts of the island can be fostered and contacts established. The main duty we have, before we can expect to end disunity, is to ensure that our society is attractive to the people up there. It is not attractive at the moment. At this meeting in Carrickmore to which I have referred Deputy Harte and I were sitting in the body of the hall. One of the speakers said he believed there were two Fianna Fáil Deputies present and he was glad to have an opportunity of saying something to them. He was corrected and told we were Fine Gael Deputies. He paid us the compliment of saying: "They are not so bad." He went on to talk about the situation down here and, quite frankly, to him, a practising politician in the north, this does not represent Shangri-la. Our society is not one they would like to join if they could have something else. They might take it in preference to what they have, but it is not what they reckon it should be and, if we examine our society, I think we cannot deny that.

Their main grievance with their situation is oppression, oppression as expressed in repressive legislation, and we have to be very careful here that we do not fall into the situation of bringing repressive legislation on to our Statute Book. The Offences Against the State Act is still extant. It was never repealed even though it was an emergency measure. This is something of which the people in the Six Counties take a dim view. We find it very hard to justify the continued existence of this Act. Recently an anti-squatting Bill was introduced here. That is another piece of repressive legislation.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

It introduces what I consider to be a most dangerous innovation, the principle of vicarious criminal liability whereby a member of a group can commit a criminal offence if a spokesman for the group makes a statement in contravention of the Bill. This is a totally detestable section. It is symptomatic of some of the tendencies in our criminal legislation over the past few years. We have the infamous Criminal Justice Bill still lurking in the background. If we postulate to these people in the north that we have a society worth joining, we have to make up our minds that any ills in our society will not be cured by repressive legislation. We have a very clear example on our doorstep of a government, a long time in power, trying to cure social ills through the medium of repressive legislation. It is essential this Parliament should not fall into that trap. We have a duty to warn the Government to look north and see there the effects of repressive legislation.

One of the things which make life so horrible in the Six Counties is the rampant religious discrimination. Can we offer them a society without discrimination? It is, I think, fair to say we can offer them a society without religious discrimination, but can we offer them a society that is free from political discrimination, a society in which advancement is on merit alone and where who you know does not matter? In all seriousness, I must say that I do not think we can. Possibly because they have been in power for such a long time with consequent control of patronage, the Government have come to regard patronage as their prerogative and unwittingly may have discriminated against people outside the ambit of their patronage.

This patronage is extended to quite minor matters. An example that comes to mind is the situation that obtains with regard to civilian employment at Custume Barracks, Athlone. Ex-soldiers who qualify for civilian jobs have complained to me that they have been unable to get those jobs. They were aware they were recommended highly by the interview board of officers but the jobs invariably are filled by small farmers from south Roscommon, as a result of political representations. These people who get the jobs make no secret about how they obtained them and on one occasion one person had the impertinence to tell the interview board that it did not matter what questions were put to him because the job was fixed.

I thought that might have been an isolated incident but in Carrickmore last night after the meeting one of the people there mentioned this question of petty jobbery and said it seems to be rampant in the south. This person has a brother working in a professional capacity in the south in the Government service and in a place where a labourer had been employed at a particular station. Again, the job was filled in advance. Even in this House Deputy Davern boasted that three of his cousins got fixed up with jobs as guides. This discrimination is as harmful and as hurtful as religious discrimination and until we eliminate it from our society we cannot invite the people of the Six Counties to join us in a reunified nation.

In his speech the Taoiseach linked the matter of the Six Counties with the economic situation in this part of the country and made the proper point that we cannot expect people to join with us unless our economic position is satisfactory. The state of the economy at the moment must give rise to worry. Inflation is rampant and all its consequent evils are clearly visible.

The Taoiseach mentioned that there were three prongs of attack to combat the evil of inflation: monetary policy, fiscal policy and a prices and incomes policy, although I think he merely referred to an incomes policy. The Taoiseach said that the steps taken in relation to monetary policy relate to the restriction of credit but how can the Government know credit is being restricted when there is a bank strike and the information normally available to the Government is not obtainable? It is well known that the new banking companies in this country do not consider themselves bound by a Government directive in the matter of restriction of credit and will continue to make credit available in contravention of any Government directive.

The Taoiseach mentioned fiscal policy and the taxation measures adopted by the Government in the last Budget. We have to look at that Budget to see what are the fiscal weapons to meet our difficulty. The doubling of turnover tax is the only weapon the Government chose to use in their efforts to halt rampant inflation. Of itself, turnover tax is inflationary because it is indiscriminate, because it falls on all the people and on practically all ranges of goods. By its action on the economy it compounds inflation. While it affects everyone and all goods, it is invidious in that it hits hardest those least able to bear its inflationary effects—those on fixed incomes, the wage earners and generally those in the weaker sections of the community. Therefore, the statement that the Budget of some months ago contains weapons of fiscal policy to combat inflation is pathetically naïve.

We are left with the third weapon to which the Taoiseach referred, the prices and incomes policy. This is a matter on which I have reservations. It has always been sought to enforce such a policy in a blanket fashion over the entire economy in the pious hope that it will lead to a holy reaction by employers and employees. The Government have only to look at practically every country in Europe where at some stage a voluntary prices and incomes policy was introduced and was found wanting. I do not think the policy will be successful in Ireland because it is psychologically wrong. Always there will be somebody wanting to jump the gun in order to gain a little more for himself. That is human nature and we are not such a sophisticated people that all sections of the community can say: "We do not want a penny more for the next six months until the economy is on its feet again." In effect, that is what the Taoiseach is asking us to do in order to control the existing inflation and restore the economy to a sound basis.

When speaking on the Finance Bill I suggested that the main weapon, and the easiest one available to the Government, to combat inflation is to restrict imports. I do not know whether the Government are afraid of retaliation from Great Britain or from Europe should they adopt this course. As I have pointed out, under the GATT and the IMF when there is a balance of payments deficit we are entitled to discriminate against imports and if we do so half of our troubles will be solved.

On that Bill I suggested that the question of a new form of taxation be investigated because it was put to me that we must have taxation, that we must produce revenue to pay for the social welfare benefits contained in the Budget. I suggested that the Government should consider a wealth tax. It is not something new in this country. We already have it in the form of death duties. It is not something novel. It already exists in Sweden, in Norway, in West Germany and in several of the States of the United States. It is easily collected, it is easily assessed and investigation is easy. It is a socially just tax because it means that the people with wealth will pay tax in contrast to the indiscriminate effect of a turnover tax both as an inflationary curb and as a weapon of social justice. There is no comparison between the two. It is too late for this year. Whether the introduction of such a tax will get any consideration before next year's Budget is something I cannot say.

The theme I wanted to pursue was that we have quite some distance to go before our society is attractive enough for the people in the Six Counties to say: "That is the society I would like to join. That is the society I would be happy in." I do not think at the moment they can say that. They might say it because of the serious nature of the repression they have to sustain and suffer but that would be an unworthy reason for wanting to come in. I would prefer that they would want to come in because the quality of life here was worth having. If the people wanted to come in and if the people were united I would not worry about political unity, constitutions, laws, politicians, borders, customs or tariffs. The real unity, the real end of partition, will be when all the people up there feel that down here there is a society in which they would like to live and that this is an area where the quality of life is such that they envy and seek to emulate. At the moment that is not the position. I consider there is discrimination here. They have it up there. It is political here. It does not matter what the adjective is, it is discrimination and it is consequently unjust.

There is a danger of repressive legislation becoming part of our statute law. This is something that stems from the fact that the Government have allowed social ills to grow to such an extent that the only answer is to repress. A Government which can produce no answer but that must seriously consider whether it is time for them to leave office. A particular piece of repressive legislation is being brought in to combat squatting. Squatting, of course, on the part of some people is ill-motivated but in many cases and initially it is an act of desperation where there is a married couple with children literally with nowhere to go. It is difficult for us here who have never had that experience, and I hope none of us ever will have, to realise what it is like. If anybody here has met a person who has had the experience of facing a night on the street with a wife and small children I do not think he would blame that person for squatting. What is wrong is that anyone in this Christian society of ours should be in that position when we can walk through any part of this city and see millions of pounds being invested in office blocks. It appals me to think that our country should have got into the situation where people are forced to squat because our priorities got all mixed up. That again is because the lead from the top is wrong. Until the lead from the top is improved or changed the reality in this country will not change. This country will continue to remain the same. We will slide from crisis to crisis. The political discrimination that is rampant—I have given some petty examples of it and I am sure every Member could give bigger and more serious examples of it—will continue; one piece of repressive legislation will lead to another until our state is as bad as that of the people in the Six Counties.

I sincerely hope that will not happen because it is only when one goes to the Six Counties and moves among those people and hears them that one realises the extent of the oppression they have to live with and how it affects the quality of life, how life is so miserable and so horrible, so constantly uneasy. We should be extremely careful down here and take every step to ensure that our society will never reach that stage.

As befits an older person I should like to compliment the last speaker on his statement because I had the feeling that this session was dead. Deputy O'Kennedy made a lively speech and I take it he was expressing his own views. It was the speech of a Green Tory. He talked of the very things of which Deputy Cooney has spoken. He spoke, in effect, in favour of the squatting Bill. He spoke in favour of restraining trade unionists. He spoke in favour of the dead ESB Act. I wonder if the House recollects the time when the ESB strikers, genuine strikers, were put in prison and then on a Saturday night they were taken out of prison and sent home in taxis and bunches of flowers were presented to them as the Russians do? I wonder if the House recollects that?

Mr. J. Lenehan

Yes.

Good. I am glad the House recollects it. The last speaker is perfectly correct in saying that there is a touch of that kind of atmosphere still around though that particular Act is dead.

I feel it is my duty, though I am not attracted to it, to follow the Taoiseach's line and to talk about inflation. The Taoiseach divided his speech into three parts. All he did in the first two parts was to underwrite the report of the Central Bank of Ireland. I would like to have the same high opinion of that report but there are a number of reasons why I cannot have that high opinion. I shall sum it up in one sentence. I believe there is in the report an attack on wages. We hate the poor in this country and we can try as much as we like to pretend that we do not. We hate to see them doing better and we hate to see higher wages here but we are having higher wages and the poor are doing better and I am glad to see it. The Taoiseach talked about the higher figure of inflation this year and went on to say that all of us are inclined to shrug our shoulders and say it is none of our business. Then he used a phrase which is very similar to the phrases used for example in the NIEC report on a prices and incomes policy: "This attitude is no longer acceptable." I ask myself, no longer acceptable to whom? I take it, no longer acceptable to the person who is writing the particular report. He is the person to whom it is no longer acceptable.

Mr. J. Lenehan

The Deputy was in Fine Gael and changed, like myself.

So the Deputy was, but we are not in the same boat now.

Mr. J. Lenehan

No.

As Deputy Cooney said, there are a number of ways in which one can attempt to do the job. Personally, I have a suspicion that it cannot be done by Governments at all and that the more they mess around with it the more of a mess they make. There are a variety of sides to it. Monetary activities are temporarily in abeyance. The Taoiseach was talking of the control of credit but even that is temporarily in abeyance, as we all know. One of my colleagues made a most appropriate remark when the banks were closed. I shall not mention his name. He said something like this: "This is wonderful. All one wants now is a cheque book and a biro and one can create one's own credit." We have all had three months of the freest credit we have ever had in our lives.

The Taoiseach went on to make one other statement—which is not true: "Much of the increase in Government expenditure has been brought on by inflation." This is what is wrong with the Taoiseach's approach to the Central Bank's report. I dealt with it in detail out of the Central Bank report: it was on the second page of the report. They go through the various items but they say: "Inflationary conditions are indicated by the following figures." I want to put them in a kind of reverse order "By far the highest figure in all these"—it is not mentioned—"is that between the year 1968 and the year 1969, the amount of borrowing by the Government went up by nearly 50 per cent." You get this in the back chapter but it is not mentioned here. They talk about the lending of the banks having increased by 22.5 per cent in 1968 and by a further 25 per cent in 1969. That 25 per cent in 1969 included the famous £25 million that they wrote up for the Government—an entry in their books: I have frequently mentioned it here. This year, when they open up again, they will have to write up very much more in their books for the Government.

Take the suggestion that there could be an increase of £75 million in the total amount of credit in this community this year, with the Government getting £50 million of the £75 million. You have the big fellow, the Government, getting £50 million and the rest of us getting £25 million. I do not agree with this either. However, it will not take me out of the Labour Party. I should like to continue with those figures.

Public expenditure—current and capital combined—rose by over 18 per cent in 1968-69 and by as much again in 1969-70. There is no other figure of current expenditure to compare with that anywhere in the community. If you take the 23 per cent in wage increases—the particular one that was mentioned—or take 25 per cent, knock off income tax which is one-quarter—you can take that off for every penny of an increase that anyone gets: even the unfortunate woman who washes the clothes in a laundry now pays 5s 3d on every £ to the Government—and take the turnover tax off and you are down to 16 per cent. But here we have the Government, for two years running—18 per cent. Then they have the damn cheek to preach to us, who have to put up with what they preach to us and do the best we can in these circumstances. I do not mind if they have the decency to shut up about it but certainly they should not say we should tighten our belts further when already they are squeezing us and the suggestion all the time is to draw in the belt another notch.

Here is another statement I want to comment on: "The consumer price index rose by 4.7 per cent in 1968 and by 7.4 per cent in 1969." When people talk about lies, damned lies and statistics, I regard that 4.7 cent increase in the cost of living in 1968 as a statistic and I have given the reason to the House already. The £ is devalued by 14 per cent. Import prices went up by 11 per cent. Export prices went up by 10 per cent. Wages went up by 9 per cent. Yet the cost of living went up by only 4.7 per cent. Who would swallow it? Who would believe it for a minute? It has an important bearing on this subject. It suggests that when the workers get a 20 per cent increase they are getting very much more than the increase in the cost of living. I believe that the cost of living went up 10 per cent in 1968. I have the best of reasons for thinking that. In the summer of 1968, when the Central Statistics Office said the cost of living did not go up at all, during that whole summer I visited, every two or three weeks, a grocer friend of mine regularly and asked him how the prices were. He used to go around the shelves and say: "That is up 3d; that is up 4d; that is up 6d." It happened time and again. Yet, between May and August, the Central Statistics Office told us the cost of living did not go up at all. All they had to do was to ask the housewives. I suppose, again, we shall be told that, following the turnover tax in May this year——

It might have been only Deputy O'Donovan's friend who was putting up the prices.

He was telling me the prices at which the goods were being supplied by the manufacturers and the wholesalers. They were not the prices he was charging himself at all— 6 per cent here; 10 per cent here; 15 per cent, 20 per cent. Sunlight soap was one of them.

Keep it clean.

It is not as popular nowadays as it was when I was a young lad but it is still a good commodity. It was up from 1s 5d to 1s 9d which is an increase of nearly 25 per cent.

Did the Deputy go into only the one shop?

The Parliamentary Secretary should listen to the story and take it in and see whether or not he agrees with it.

I want to know did the Deputy visit any other shop. Surely there must have been more shops than one.

The inquiries I was making were a bit personal. I would not like to go into an ordinary shop and ask the owner what he was paying for such and such. The Parliamentary Secretary will not get me off the point. We have established that the Central Bank report—this report of such value —stated that Government expenditure went up by 18 per cent in 1968-69 and by 18 per cent in 1969-70. On the previous page it was stated that creating the conditions in which the aim of building up the lives of the community could be achieved was a concern of long-term economic development rather than of short run budgetary and credit policies. If you have inflationary budgets and inflationary credit, I do not see how you can avoid inflation. I do not know any method by which you can avoid inflation.

On the question of a prices and incomes policy, I agree heartily with Deputy Cooney. What does a prices and incomes policy mean? The Labour Party know what it means. It means a low wages policy. I know of no method by which you can control other incomes. The Fianna Fáil Party complain that they have no opportunity to speak. We are sitting until 11.30 p.m. tonight and tomorrow night and until about nine o'clock on Thursday and the Fianna Fáil Party will have ample opportunity to speak. They will have no difficulty about getting in on this debate. Deputy Dowling was complaining this afternoon that he cannot get in. I do not blame Deputy Dowling because the truth is that, to be a backbencher in a Government like the Fianna Fáil Government, must be a very frustrating experience.

Particularly if you are demoted from the front bench.

When they are demoted they do not come in at all.

How would the Deputy like to want to be in Government and not be asked?

If I had the opportunity I would have put them out last Tuesday. The turnover tax would be a marvellous subject for an election. I could not imagine a better subject for an election.

A by-election was held in Kildare on it.

Deputy Cooney won his by-election all right.

We should not interrupt the Deputy.

I enjoy speaking with interruptions. The Taoiseach talked about approaching this subject in the same way as the one way traffic routes are created and in that way having certain traffic rules.

Controls.

Traffic controls. He hoped that the inflation would be whittled down although not eliminated. In other words, he realises it is not possible to eliminate inflation. In reply to Parliamentary questions the Minister for Finance seemed to be quite proud of the fact that we have inflation like everybody else. His predecessor was more shrewd. He used to create the inflation but he would keep very quite about it.

While I am on the subject of a prices and incomes policy, I want to mention the NIEC report on prices and incomes which was not the first one because we had report No. 11 which had some other title but was, in fact, about prices and incomes. It was quite definite and strong in its proposals, whereas the more recent one, entitled prices and incomes, is woolly and worthless and full of "preachy" statements which are of no use in any practical matters.

The Taoiseach suggested that the Irish Congress of Trade Unions should continue the dialogue they had in Cork. What the Irish Congress of Trade Unions do is their own affair. It ended in an indefinite fashion. Quite frankly, I have a conviction that there is no reason whatever why the Irish Congress of Trade Unions should have a further conference about it.

I want to talk very seriously about one other aspect of what was said by the Taoiseach, that is, the aspect of the man days lost. There were 800,000 man days lost, as we were told by the Minister for Labour, through the maintenance strike. I tried to calculate how many man days were lost through the cement strike and I made it 1½ million. I was much more interested in a very different subject. How many man days are lost every year through unemployment? I worked it out at about 12½ million man days. I was very conservative because I abated the figures considerably to take out of them anyone who might be unemployable for any reason. I took a certain figure for 50 weeks of the year and a five-day week and I got the figure of 12½ million man days lost each year through unemployment.

Was there one word about unemployment from the Taoiseach or the Parliamentary Secretary? I was here for both their speeches. Did the leader of my party hear one word from them about unemployment? Not a word. Neither of them said "boo" about it. It is an extremely serious matter, unless we are to fool ourselves about it. All the strikes put together in the worst year we could imagine are only a fraction of the number of man days lost through unemployment.

The Taoiseach went on to say that our procedures are adequate and that it was absurd to talk about asking Ministers to fix strikes. Let me talk about the bank closure for a moment. On two occasions when inter-Party Governments were in office there was a situation similar to the situation in March and April of this year in relation to the banks. I remember the first occasion quite well because I was stuck with it. We were in Government Buildings on Christmas Day, 1950. The Taoiseach, Deputy Costello, was there and Mr. W. Ganley, the chairman of the Banks standing committee, was there. He had been in a slight accident and was limping around the place. The inter-Party Government fixed that strike. That was a genuine strike. It was not like the present situation.

In 1955, I think it was, the same kind of situation occurred as occurred in April of this year. The bank officials began to work to rule. The second inter-Party Government decided to alleviate the position by allowing the banks to open for two hours a day from 10 to 12. On the first occasion, in 1950, the banks had to be closed for a while and they were closed under the Supplies and Services Act because that was the handiest instrument. There is no question of the truth of what I have said many times in this House: the banks are at present closed illegally. If you are big enough in this country you can break the law to your heart's content because the Government is a non-government. It does not exist except for pushing around squatters and little fellows. The commercial banks in this country cannot close without a Government order but so much were the Government keeping away their hands from the situation in case they would get dirty on the job that they would not even make an order. I should be very surprised if the directors of the commercial banks did not approach them and say: "Will you not make an order under the Public Holidays Act, 1924, allowing us to close?" That Act is based on the Bank Holidays Act of 1871. I am nearly certain they did and that the Government said: "If you do it quietly we will not say anything. We shall not raise the point at all."

In reply to a Parliamentary question the Minister for Finance told me: "There is no law requiring the banks to open on any particular day or days." But there is a law which requires that the banks do not close on any particular day unless that day is either stated in the 1924 Act or else a special order is made by the Government.

Would the Deputy quote the Act?

The Public Holidays Act, 1924. The Parliamentary Secretary should have a look at it in the Library. The Government did make an order about 8th December last allowing the banks to close on 1st January. Why was that necessary? Why could the banks not just close? I am no lawyer but I can read plain English.

(Interruptions.)

I should not mind creating a little credit but my difficulty with the present Government is that they have been creating too much for themselves. The worst operator with a biro and one of these cheque books you can buy in a stationer's shop at present does not compare with the present Government. He is trotting after them. He will only create a flea-bite of inflation or credit for himself by comparison with what the banks created for the Government last October, £25 million. I bet they will ask the banks to create about £50 million next October because this is the nature of inflation. It is a beast with an enormous maw and once it gets going the maw gets bigger and bigger.

We had no real reason why the Minister for Labour should not fix up these strikes. Eventually, he had to intervene in the cement strike. I can appreciate why the Government should say that we have the machinery set up in the Labour Court in 1946 but long after the Labour Court was set up Deputy Paddy Burke on many an occasion fixed a strike. Fianna Fáil seem to have got tired of that game. Whether they feel there is no political credit in it or not I do not know but it is no longer popular with the Government to try to fix any industrial dispute. When you had a closure of the banks that had gone on for three months all we asked—and it was asked in this House—was: "Had not the time come for the Minister for Labour to put himself into the picture?" It is now possible that the two sides may come together and fix it up but I have a hunch that the Minister for Labour will have to come in at the end to fix it up just as he did in the case of the cement strike. I think no finger would be pointed at him if, when the present closure of the banks went on for a few weeks, he had said: "This is a serious matter for the community." One of the groups for whom it is most serious I think is the commercial banks themselves.

(Interruptions.)

In the report of the Central Bank it is disclosed that the £28 million worth of gold that we had in the Central Bank on 31st March, 1969, is now gone and all we have left of it is £300,000. It may be that £28 million is not very much of a gold reserve but there are certain circumstances when even as a country you might find it very hard to get £28 million. I have not forgotten the end of 1965 when the present Government party hawked Ireland's credit all over the world and got nothing from the United States Government or the International Monetary Fund and got £6 million from the National City Bank —I suppose that is one reason it is here now. We borrowed £8 million in Germany at about 9 per cent and eventually we went for a loan of £5 million in London. There was a long period during the second inter-Party Government when we could have got £50 million in London at about 4 per cent but when we sought the £5 million the amount subscribed was £450,000 of which £250,000 came from one insurance company which was operating here. Our credit was destroyed around the world for a total of less than £20 million.

In fairness, I think the Deputy's leader does not believe him. He has left the House.

Perhaps it is no harm that I should say a few words on the Constitution since everybody has been discussing it. I came to the conclusion last week from something said in reply to a Parliamentary question—and it was apparent again in the speech of the Parliamentary Secretary, Deputy O'Kennedy—that the next referendum will include a package deal on the Constitution—votes at 18, the objectionable religious clauses of the Constitution and entering the EEC. It is quite possible that we shall have a completely new Constitution drafted and that the people will be asked to vote "yes" or "no" for the new Constitution. The package deal intrigues me because it is typical of the present Government party. When they come up against a difficulty, they are pretty clever at getting around it but they do not remove it. I do not think this will remove the objection that is in this country to going into the Common Market. If we regard this institution as a place where arguments count, I never saw a debate more conclusively won in this assembly than the last debate on the Common Market which was won by the Labour Party. The Government Party was obliterated.

It is not over yet.

Both big parties appeared as if they were not there.

We are quite happy to allow the Deputy to win all the debates he likes if that is the only thing he wins.

I wonder will the debate ever recommence. What shocked the Government about it was that they thought we were exhausted by the long debates we had on the Finance Bill and on the crisis.

Mr. J. Lenehan

What crisis?

They never heard of it. I do not see them around.

(Interruptions.)

Deputy Dr. O'Donovan.

They all disappeared when the Taoiseach started to speak.

This may be all very humorous but Deputy Dr. O'Donovan is in possession.

I am deadly serious and I think the House is getting the point all right.

The Chair is anxious that Deputy O'Donovan should be allowed develop his points.

I think I have got the point across. There is to be an attempt at a package deal. Deputy Corish has rightly raised the point that there is a good deal of frustration in this House. Of course, nowhere is it more apparent than in the back benches of the Government party. He spoke about the effect on new Deputies. The Parliamentary Secretary, Deputy O'Kennedy, deliberately misinterpreted what Deputy Corish said. He accused us of sympathising with various disruptive forces. What Deputy Corish was talking about was the frustration in this House. He said it was quite possible that that feeling of complete frustration has been conveyed to the community and that it gave rise to young people marching. It is quite possible. I do not know. Does any member of the Fianna Fáil Party know whether it is right or not? Deputy O'Kennedy raised a number of Aunt Sallys, but the most interesting one was in relation to public order and morality.

Mr. J. Lenehan

And integrity.

I cannot remember using the word "integrity", unless integrity of the currency. I do not mind talking about the integrity of the currency. There is very little integrity of the currency when we have to pay 10s 6d or 11s 6d per lb for rib beef in this city. Let me come back to this question of frustration in this House and give a few examples of the kind of thing I mean. There are more serious aspects of this, like the fact that the Bill to provide for votes at 18 was not taken, the fact that there has been no Private Members' time since Christmas, and so on, the fact that questions asked of Ministers are not answered. There was one today about industrial grants and the reply of the Minister for Industry and Commerce was "I am not responsible for that". This was literally true, that it was the responsibility of the Industrial Development Authority. When I challenged him as to whether he had the information in his Department he could not deny he had it but he was not prepared to give it. Does anyone believe that when the new industries section of the Department of Industry and Commerce sets up a new industry they do not know what grants it is getting from the IDA? No one would believe that. To be fair to the Minister, he did not suggest he did not know it, but he certainly was not prepared to give it in the House.

Perhaps the Deputy did not ask him that question. I thought it was something different.

Can the Parliamentary Secretary tell me what question I did ask him?

That is what I am asking the Deputy.

I have told the House already. I asked: "Has the Minister got the information in his Department?" and he did not deny that he had it. What about the answers I got last week or the week before in relation to bilateral trade agreements? The only worthwhile answer I got was that in the view of the Fianna Fáil Party bilateral trade agreements are poor things. They are kings compared to the Common Market. There is a sanction in relation to bilateral agreements that is coming up for renewal next year or the year after. It was still the case when the former Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries answered a question here about a serious breach of a bilateral trade agreement by the Germans. I asked him was this the only occasion on which they broke a bilateral agreement, and he said very positively no, it was not. When I asked the Minister for External Affairs a global question the week before last he said it would be too much for his hardworked Department of External Affairs. I made some suitable comments on that. I do not intend to repeat them here. I believe it is perfectly proper to comment in this House on civil servants in general. It would be grossly improper to comment on individual civil servants, but I see nothing wrong with commenting on a whole Department or a whole section of the Government service. I am no Britisher in that connection. I do not believe in that kind of inheritance from the British. We are entitled to make any comment we like on a group of civil servants. I am quite certain they comment on us and they are not particularly backward about doing it in public.

I asked a question last week about West Germany, and what answer did I get? The same answer that, generally speaking, bilateral trade agreements had been kept and a lot of work would have to be done to get the information. I believe that a competent civil servant—if there are any such in the Department of External Affairs— would get, in one week, the information about every breach of a bilateral trade agreement with Germany.

Deputy O'Kennedy talked about conditions in Sweden and suggested that agreements were made between the workers' trade unions on the one side and the employers' federation on the other. There is a great deal of truth in that, but it is a triangular arrangement. There is a Government representative at one of those points and they come to an agreement. By the way, they fix wages once a year.

That is what he said.

I am on to a different point. We fix wages only once every two years and our inflation is worse than in Sweden.

Is that not an argument for the kind of arrangement he said we should have?

I have nothing against it but it is certainly an argument for fixing wages once a year.

Mr. J. Lenehan

Things are different in Sweden.

In page 10 of their report the Central Bank say:

It would be nationally advantageous if the trade unions would agree to let the twelfth round pay agreements run for at least six months beyond their expiry dates without further increase as a prelude to the effective operation of the system envisaged in the NIEC Report.

Gaga-land. Is that not the ultimate in nonsense? Starting in 1946 we have had 12 wage rounds since 1946, two years for each round and now it is suggested it should be two and a half years. This has been tried before but it has never been brought off.

Mr. J. Lenehan

First of all, I want to congratulate the Taoiseach on his statesmanlike attitude in the last few weeks. Despite all the muck that has been thrown at him, he has succeeded in bringing some kind of peace not only into the 26 Counties but into the 32 Counties, believe it or not.

And the Fianna Fáil Party.

Mr. J. Lenehan

And the Fianna Fáil Party, yes. There is no question about that. The Fianna Fáil Party are quite capable of looking after themselves, I can assure the Deputy.

Whose side are you on?

Mr. J. Lenehan

The Deputy can keep interrupting me as much as he likes. Deputies on those benches have got away with murder for the past nine months. They had about four-fifths of the time of this House and I have decided I will talk until the Leas-Cheann Comhairle makes me sit down. I do not know when that will be but it will not be for the next few minutes anyway. I will make up for all the time that you people have taken up in the past few months. I am quite capable of talking and I have as good a voice as was ever heard in this House and Deputy Dr. O'Donovan knows that. We were very good pals in the Fine Gael Party some years ago before he, like myself, made up his mind and got out of the party. It was the first sane and sensible thing he ever did because the Fine Gael Party are the greatest crowd of hypocrites we ever had in the country. They sold the Six Counties and now they are coming back, like Deputy Harte there, shouting "Up the Republic" and all the other things that they wish to shout up.

Were you not wearing a blueshirt with Fine Gael?

Mr. J. Lenehan

I was a member of the Fine Gael Party. I am the only man in Mayo who was elected in three successive elections at the head of the poll for three different parties.

All credit to you.

Mr. J. Lenehan

No other man in this House ever succeeded in doing that. I was elected at the head of the poll for Fine Gael. I was elected at the head of the poll as an Independent and I was elected at the head of the poll for Fianna Fáil. Is there anyone on that side of the House who ever succeeded in doing that?

(Interruptions.)

Mr. J. Lenehan

If you want fun and entertainment you can get all you want of it, and so can the people in the public gallery, because there is no better entertainer than myself and I have been here for quite a long time, and longer than anybody sitting on those benches there and I will be here a long time after some of the people there who will be gone before me. Do not have any doubt about that. I do not have to use any type of amplification—I do not know what that thing is—as my voice can be heard across the House.

(Interruptions.)

Would Deputies cease interrupting and allow Deputy Lenehan to proceed?

Mr. J. Lenehan

I am here longer than Deputy Harte. I was listening to a political neophyte who came in here as a result of the sheerest of accidents in a recent by-election and he lectured Members of this House for quite a long time. I never heard such tripe since the day I was born. Of course, I accept that we have to put up with that sort of thing. I agree that when some of those fellows have been here for as long as I have been they probably will get some commonsense or otherwise they will become loonies like myself.

Hear, hear.

Mr. J. Lenehan

Oh yes, I always understand my failings.

That helps a lot.

Mr. J. Lenehan

It will be very interesting to see some of these geniuses when they have been here for as long as I have been.

Was the Deputy not defeated in 1965?

Will Deputies allow Deputy Lenehan to proceed?

Mr. J. Lenehan

I admit I was defeated in 1965 but I was well compensated for that. I had no worry on that score at all.

The Deputy was elected as one of the cricket eleven.

Mr. J. Lenehan

Yes, one of the eleven.

Unless Deputies cease interrupting, the Chair will have to take action.

Mr. J. Lenehan

I have heard all the nonsense, the bunkum and the rubbish that was spoken here for the past five or six months. It was very difficult to sit here and listen to it, day in and day out. Surely Opposition Deputies must agree that they have had roughly four-fifths of the time of this House in the past six to nine months.

Notice taken that 20 Members were not present; House counted, and 20 Members being present,

Mr. J. Lenehan

Having put me to that trouble, I may as well put them to as much trouble as I can. Deputies on the opposite side are not such good attenders and they should be the last people to call for a quorum. I remember the time they succeeded in keeping their place in this House by getting Johnny Jinks of Sligo to jink and they introduced a new word into the dictionary as a result. That was quite a number of years ago. I am a lot older than I look. I remember what they did with that fellow; he got out and they saved themselves. If those gentlemen keep calling for a House, I am prepared to wait until nine o'clock on Thursday night, or whatever time it is, and continue talking. I am prepared to do that.

Every possible type of allegation has been made against the Government in the past few months. The Constitution is wrong. It is extraordinary that the people voted for the Constitution and the people on the far side accepted it. The people are sane and sensible, so if there is anything wrong with the Constitution there is something wrong with the people. I do not think for one moment that that is true. The banks are wrong. The Central Bank is wrong. The Labour Court is wrong. Practically everything in the country is wrong. The general attitude is that the whole Fianna Fáil Party are wrong.

I wonder do the Fine Gael people realise that their party never succeeded in governing this country without the support of some other party. Fianna Fáil are the only party who ever succeeded in forming a Government and remaining in Government without the aid of some other party. I do not think the younger Deputies over there realise that neither Fine Gael nor Cumann na nGaedhael ever succeeded in their own right in forming a Government here. They always had various other parties supporting them.

They were the people who a few years ago threw mud and muck at me because I supported Fianna Fáil and kept them in office and, in my opinion, rightly so. They have forgotten their past. They are the people who had the effrontery to say to me this, that and the other, and you are this and that. I was a Fine Gael supporter for many a long day and, as a result of my long support of that party, I discovered their rotten, dirty background. I remember going on one occasion to a convention and I remember a very high-up member of the Fine Gael Party saying to me: "You are to act as chairman of this meeting and you are to make sure of one thing, and this is the important thing, that the worst possible candidate is going to be selected."

Stop talking about yourself.

Mr. J. Lenehan

Oh, no. I always got in. I always headed the poll. "You are going to make sure," he said "that the worst possible candidate will be selected to run." I again headed the poll and he did not get in at all, needless to say. I made sure the right candidate was selected and he got in, but the man who made the statement—he was a high ranking member of the Fine Gael Party—did not get in.

I heard the allegations about the banks. With regard to the Government and the banks the situation is a rather simple one. If the Government took the attitude that they would intervene in every strike, where would the Labour Party be? I admit that as far as the present Labour Party, pseudosocialists, or whatever they are, are concerned, they would not be regarded normally as a Labour Party but I suppose we have to accept these parties as a Labour Party. I do not think there is a single one there who ever did a day's work in his life or has the slightest intention of ever doing a day's work. They tell us about the west. There are things wrong in the west and there are things wrong in the east too. I do not see the present Labour Party making any effort—good, bad or indifferent—to do anything for the west or, indeed, to do anything for any other part of the country either.

We have reached the point today— we know that—when the Labour Party and the Fine Gael Party would join hands in an effort to defeat us. It would be a rather difficult task. We are still here. It is amazing how we survive. A doctor said to me on one occasion: "There are only two crowds in this country that have any standing, the Fianna Fáil Party and the Catholic Church, and you could not `bate' either of the two." I do not think he was a long way out when you come to think of it. We have not survived as long as the Catholic Church but we have survived a fairly long time. It will be most entertaining to see the standing of the Irish Catholic Church in Europe. It will be the Protestant Church too. They are both a juridical type living in the past and they have forgotten it has past them by and when we go into Europe and religion comes along it will be most entertaining to see how the Irish churches survive there. I am not talking about Catholics now, but about the Protestants.

I do not see how the question of the churches arises.

Mr. J. Lenehan

Is this not a free for all? This is on the Constitution. I am talking about religion when we go into Europe and I think we will go in sooner than we expect. It will be most entertaining; the holy wells and all the other funny things that go on in this country will be at an end. I often wonder will the smart alecks in Paris, the agents for the brothels and that, be able to come in here and set up here. I should love to see the faces of some of the boys when this comes up because we are living in a country in which we have a different religion with every bishop and every parish priest, for that matter. It will certainly be most entertaining. No matter what the Ceann Comhairle says, whether I am right or wrong, when many of our people have to face reality on the Continent they will get a tremendous shock and they will find that the type of religion on the Continent is far removed from what we practice; blessing ourselves like that, knocking a fly off your nose, or shaking holy water on yourself to drown evil will not be exactly the type of thing we will find on the Continent.

It is not exactly the type of debate on this motion either.

It is time you said that, a Cheann Comhairle.

Mr. J. Lenehan

This is the Constitution. Even the Chief Justice is not now the sound man in this country. I do not agree with that. I do not for a moment believe there is anything wrong with the Chief Justice. I think he was absolutely correct——

We are not discussing the Judiciary. The Deputy will not be allowed to continue. That matter does not arise on this debate.

Mr. J. Lenehan

If I cannot discuss that, I shall discuss the economy of the country. A Deputy described our country as being financially and morally bankrupt, but I do not agree with this. I remember this country in 1922 and it was a very sad place at that time. There were not many slated roofs in my part of the country but, as the Parliamentary Secretary is aware, every man now has a decent home. I often wonder if thanks are given for this and I am sorry to say I do not think people are grateful. If has been said of our party that we have done nothing, but I would point to all the houses that have been constructed and say they just did not appear on the scene by magic. They were not provided by the pseudo-intellectuals of the Labour Party, but by Fianna Fáil. I remember in 1948 when the heroes went out and succeeded in defeating Fianna Fáil but it was a victory they were sorry they achieved.

Notice taken that 20 Members were not present; House counted, and 20 Members being present.

Deputy Lenehan to resume.

On what?

Mr. J. Lenehan

I can talk until 11.30 p.m. I am prepared to keep on until this day week, if necessary.

Hear, hear.

Mr. J. Lenehan

There have been attacks on the Government in regard to our entry into the Common Market. We must show some commonsense in this matter. We have no option but to go into Europe because if we remain outside the Community we will be deprived of many of the benefits. However, we must accept that our entry carries with it some risks, but we should not forget that in previous times our people have gone to Britain, America, Australia; they have even been imprisoned in Van Diemen's land, and they have survived. It is a pity if we admit to ourselves that in the 1970s we cannot survive in Europe. Some 1,500 years ago we went into Europe—some people maintain we even stole St. Patrick from the Europeans—and there is no reason we cannot survive today. We will meet with competition from the giant European companies but we can withstand this and can share in the prosperity of the EEC.

It is said that the only person who will prosper if we enter Europe is the farmer, but I do not agree. The farmer is entitled to what he can make out of this game. If the price of beef goes up the farmer is entitled to that and to any other price increases he may get. He has been waiting a long, long time for it. If he makes money so will the labourer. I do not know whether there are many labourers left in this country. I doubt it but they will make their money too. There will be a compensating factor. Some of the arguments put up here are utter nonsense. They are put up mainly by the Labour Party. I think the Fine Gael Party agree with us that if we are to get anywhere we must go into Europe.

We are not correct in all our ideas. For instance, the present tourist set-up is one of the greatest disgraces in Europe. Unless something is done about it we will definitely lose our attraction as a tourist country. I went into a hotel for three consecutive nights and ordered the same meal. On the first night I was charged 12s 6d. The next night a different lady charged me 17s 6d and the third night another lady charged me 10s 6d. I took an American to an hotel and in the morning the lady charged him 10s more than she charged me, although we were in the same room.

The Deputy cannot help being good looking.

Mr. J. Lenehan

I know I am good looking. That is the kind of thing that goes on. A man came into my place in Belmullet last year and asked for a pint of stout. The young fellow gave it to him and when he told him that the price was 2s 8d the man said he had just left a certain place in my constituency where he had been charged 4s for a pint of stout. This is going on wholesale across the land. I know of four men who walked into a place last year and ordered four pints of draught lager. One of the men handed in a £1 note and was given no change. He was told it was 5s a pint. That happened in the West of Ireland.

This has gone much too far and I agree with the Opposition that we must call a halt to it because, if we do not, in two years from today we will have nobody going into the hotels. Three years ago I gave them five years. I was wrong. It has gone only three years and now they are getting sick of going into these hotels and it is little wonder because they are being overcharged. I never mind paying for anything so long as I get what I ask for but not only do they overcharge but they will not even give the thing for which one asked. It is a public disgrace. I am the Deputy who lives, perhaps, farthest from this House and going right across the country it is amazing the prices we are charged. There is one big point and this is not my final point.

Mr. J. Lenehan

Is it 11.30?

No, the Deputy has an hour and a half to go.

Mr. J. Lenehan

You said it. My part of the country is an area where there are fishermen even if some of them succeed in getting lost. We have no details at all as to what will happen when we go into Europe. They buy fish from us at the moment because there is no other people from whom to buy but when we go into Europe where will we come in? Nobody has given us any idea of fish prices in Europe. It is possible that the price will be high. On the other hand, once we go in there is nothing to stop the Europeans from permitting, say, the Japanese to send in all the fish they want to. This is a guess on my part. I am glad the Parliamentary Secretary who is in the House is a man who knows something about this line. I hope this will not happen.

We must hold the record in this country for strikes. The farmer normally does not go on strike nor the small shopkeeper. Even the TD or Senator does not go on strike but even if he did I suppose he would collect his salary. Our industrial relations are the worst in the world.

Has the Deputy many relations?

Mr. J. Lenehan

I have no industrial relations. As a matter of fact, my relations are of doubtful parentage anyhow. I should not like to challenge their paternity at all. We have the worst record in Europe as regards strikes. It is a shame. It should be possible to resolve this problem. I know there is many a Deputy in this House glad that the bank strike has lasted so long. I know there is many a businessman who is glad it has lasted so long. He may come out either bankrupt or a rich man. Surely there must be some way to get around this situation. We cannot allow a situation to drag on in which any group can take anything in the world into their heads and decide to go on strike and can remain on strike for as long as they wish and disrupt a large section of the economy.

I would appeal to the Labour Party to do something in that Tower of Babel down on the quays. They should take steps to put an end to these strikes which are a disgrace in a country like this and in an economy like ours. After all, we are only trying to pull ourselves up at the moment. We are not up. We are trying to get up. Instead of being disruptive—as they are, obviously— they should try to take some remedial steps. I am quite sure that, in the future, some solution must be found before a strike is allowed to take place. There should be long and worthwhile discussion when a strike is threatened. It is galling to hear radio announcers, especially in the morning, stating that a strike has taken place. Strikers will not go back in a hurry. I often wonder how the wives and families of strikers get on during a strike. I suggest to my friends over there that the last thing that should take place in this country is a strike.

The three main topics discussed in this debate so far are (1) our entry into the EEC; (2) the financial position of the country and (3) the relationship between the north and south of the country. My view on the first two points—our entry into the EEC and the financial position of the country—is that if Britain goes into the EEC we go in after her. To the people who say that this is not a realistic approach I would say that they are entitled to their opinion. When they criticise and say that we are not geared to meet the competition of the Common Market say it is time we to steps to alter this position. I am quite certain that if the Irish tradesman gets an opportunity to prove himself he will accept the challenge.

Irrespective of what Government are in office, inflation will take place not alone in this country but in every country, democratic and otherwise, throughout the world. Unfortunately, the present Government have fallen down on their obligation to control inflation. I am sorry Deputy Lenehan is leaving because we had something to say about his speech.

Mr. J. Lenehan

I am sorry to leave but I have to go.

I am sorry too but I would be delighted if he would go. My view on inflation is that it is the duty of a Government continually to fight. Despite all the forces at the command of the Government, inflation will take place. However, the inflation that has taken place in this country over the past 13 years has been astronomical. No party is held more responsible for our present adverse economic situation than Fianna Fáil.

To get to the root of the trouble one must go back to when the present Government were in opposition and when the then Deputy Leader of the Fianna Fáil parliamentary party, Mr. Seán Lemass, saw an opportunity during a crisis in the inter-Party Government. He made all the wild promises that a policitian in opposition can afford to make in an effort to get back into power, including the promise not to remove the food subsidies—which he immediately did when he was returned to office. I am not an economist but it is my humble opinion that that was the commencement of a spiral of inflation the like of which has not been known in this country or in any country in western Europe. Deputy Cunningham may laugh. He has the comfort of a reasonably good home and a good income. If inflation takes place it will be a long time before it touches the level of living to which Deputy Cunningham is accustomed. But the people who elected Deputy Cunningham, the poor people who come from the constituency both Deputy Cunningham and I represent, will be seared by inflation. Deputy Cunningham will then proceed to convince them that he will give them dole or that their social welfare benefits will be increased to keep them at a proper living standard. This is the type of government we have been used to— certainly since I came into public life —and I say to Deputy Cunningham that it is nothing to be proud of.

Would Deputy Harte ask his colleague on the front bench if removing subsidies has not the opposite effect to that which he says it has?

Deputy Cunningham can make that point when he is making his contribution to this debate.

The Parliamentary Secretary.

A very decent man.

I am sorry, the Parliamentary Secretary.

That is right, stick up for one another.

If you remove food subsidies, the poorer section of our community will be the first to feel the effect.

We are talking about inflation. Deputy Harte is talking about inflation.

Surely, if food subsidies are withdrawn, the people who will feel the effect immediately are the lower income group people?

Admittedly.

In turn, they will look for increases and those increases will result in inflation—and there it goes. We know that this has taken place. We know well that in 1963 the turnover tax was introduced. I remember the former Minister for Finance, Deputy Dr. James Ryan, saying in this House that the effect of the turnover tax would be unnoticed. Yet, virtually within days, every organised group in Irish society was protesting at its introduction and, before it was introduced on 1st November, 1963, we had protests, street marches, the likes of which had never been known in this country and which I suppose gave an example of what could be done a few years later in the northern part of the country. The turnover tax was introduced. Strangely enough, the last speaker, who was elected to this House on an Independent ticket, who was a former member of this party and who was elected here by the votes of supporters of this party, came in here and voted with the Government party on the introduction of the turnover tax. He stands here today and protests and agrees with the Fine Gael Party that inflation has now taken place. Does he suffer from a short memory or is he just as insincere as he appears to be?

The turnover tax made the Fianna Fáil Party very unpopular. The former Taoiseach, Mr. Seán Lemass, having to fight two by-elections—one in the city of Cork and the other in the constituency of Kildare in early 1964—had to bring something out of the bag. In front of the trade union movement, he announced the ninth round increase. That ninth round increase convinced people that, because they were getting a bigger pay packet, they were better off—only to be made aware, within months, that this increased pay packet would purchase fewer goods and that, sooner or later, the people about whom Deputy Cunningham is concerned would be better off, whereas the people we are more concerned about would feel again the effects of inflation. This has been the performance right up to this year when the turnover tax was further increased by 2½ per cent. In short, there is the way I see inflation taking place in this country. I have not the solution for it. I am not an economist. I cannot pinpoint the situation and say exactly what the solution is.

To the best of my knowledge democratically elected Governments are charged first and foremost with the responsibility of fighting inflation which is constantly taking place and which has occurred since we got away from the barter system. The Fianna Fáil Party, for purely party political gains and expediency, decided that it was better to inflate the economy, gamble with it and romance with the increased moneys going into the workers' pockets, purely to stay in office. We have perfect examples of that but we have now reached the moment of truth.

When the Taoiseach was speaking earlier today, he mentioned three points. The first two points dealt with the economy of the country. He agreed, before he concluded his address, that the third point was correlated with the first two points. Needless to say, the economic standard south of the Border has made it more unattractive now for people who wanted to rejoin the 26 Counties to come in here.

I will tell a story. Recently I was invited to the official opening of premises. I was introduced to two couples from Belfast and I utilised the occasion to discuss with them the relationship between Catholic and Protestant north and south of the Border, between the Unionist point of view and what can loosely be described as the Nationalist point of view. I think it is absolutely necessary that we should avail of every opportunity to discuss with people whose political views we do not accept, as, indeed, they do not accept ours, the different points of view held. If after discussing these points, we got up from the table and agreed only to differ, we would achieve something that is being very sadly neglected at the moment.

To get back to my story. Having persuaded them that the attitude which the Taoiseach is now proclaiming as being the official attitude of the Fianna Fáil Party has, in fact, been unanimously endorsed by the Fine Gael Party and the Labour Party, and that this is the viewpoint of 90 per cent of the people south of the Border, and that the other ten per cent who disagree have not got the knowledge or are too confused to think clearly and unemotionally and having convinced them that we were not gun-runners and that we did not share the view that the Border could be shifted by force, one of the people sitting there said: "Look, I have a good job. I have a good house. I have security. What have I not got that you can offer me? If you can offer me something that I have not got at the moment I will consider the position of a 32 County Ireland."

When I looked for an answer I found that the Republican Party, the cornerstone of whose policy is republicanism, to unite the country either by forceful means or otherwise had, by bad economic planning, by maladministration, increased taxation south of the Border to such a degree that it is no longer attractive even for Catholic Nationalist-Republicans north of the Border to rejoin the 26 Counties. This is the sad story of a party who came into power on the promise to unite the country. Not alone have they not kept that promise, but the Six Counties are there now and there to stay until such time as the economic situation on this side of the Border is corrected.

I do not know whether that can be done under the present leadership. When I talk about the unification of this country I am not particularly interested in party political gain. Nor do I wish to score any political points. I do not see any votes in it for Fine Gael, or Labour, or Fianna Fail. It transcends all political parties. That is a common view held by each political party and we should have a united front. In the past few days I had occasion to come out in support of a statement made by the Taoiseach. I did so because I felt that, coming from a constituency so closely associated with the traditions of other Irish people, it was important that a Deputy from a constituency such as the one I represent should do so.

I am sorry that Deputy Cunningham has left the House. In that constituency there are three representatives, Deputy Blaney, Deputy Cunningham and myself. The whole country north and south and, in fact, people all over the British Isles know quite clearly the stand Deputy Blaney has taken. I hope I have been successful in getting my point of view across and that people are sufficiently well-informed to know where I stand. I want to know where Deputy Cunningham stands in all this.

The Parliamentary Secretary. It is usual to refer to the Parliamentary Secretary or the Minister.

I apologise. I want to know where the Parliamentary Secretary stands. It is not long since we fought a general election. It so happened that my colleague in that election was a member of the minority group. One does not have to have a very long memory to remember the type of tactics Deputy Cunningham employed to defeat that colleague. It is a commonly held view in that constituency that Deputy Cunningham holds a stronger republican view than Deputy Blaney. These are the charges which are being made against him. It is only fair that I should state them here so that Deputy Cunningham can either confirm or deny them.

Twelve or 15 months ago the slogan was: "Let's back Jack." It is time people stood up now and said: "Let's back Jack." It is not now so much: "Let's back Jack" or "Let's sack Jack". It is now "Let's hack Jack." I believe the democratically elected leader of this country, irrespective of whether he leads a Fine Gael Government, an inter-Party Government or a Fianna Fáil Government, has the sole and absolute right to take decisions. If he takes proper decisions we are all duty-bound as elected representatives of the people to show loyalty to him. If he is not doing his job properly, there is a democratic way of having him replaced.

It may be said that I have taken the same stand as the Taoiseach. It is very easy for me to do this because in my book the stand which the Taoiseach has taken is the foundation stone of the Fine Gael Party. It is what I consider to be the difference between Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael. It is what I consider Fine Gael is all about. For this reason I find it easy to support the Taoiseach on such an issue but it is not for that reason alone that I have done it but because I believe that Irishmen should support the democratically elected leader of the country. In the last analysis the buck stops on his desk.

When a decision major enough to involve Irish people north and south of the Border has to be taken, that man and that man alone has the right to take that decision after consulting his Cabinet and getting the authority from this Parliament. No other person has the right to do what the Taoiseach has to do. Last week in the papers in Donegal Deputy Blaney is quoted as having said that he never advocated force, that he never wanted force. It is not so long ago since Deputy Blaney said that if force kept the Border he saw no reason why it should not be shifted by force. I do not want to be involved in a deep discussion as to whether Deputy Blaney made these statements or not. The point I want to make—and I am sorry Deputy Blaney is not here to discuss it—is that the solution to our national problem can be found only by peaceful means. You will never change attitudes north of the Border by the use of force, never remove partition.

If the argument put forward by some people who have retreated from the position in which we seem to have seen them some months ago, is that force should be used only in self-defence, I say even in self-defence force defeats itself. I know it would be difficult to put forward these arguments to people living in the Falls or Shankill or Bogside but these people are emotionally involved at this stage and one can never settle anything on emotional argument. I know people, Catholics and Protestants, Nationalists and Unionists, who are very good neighbours as is expected only from Irish people. They help each other and, excluding the areas I have just mentioned they live happily and taking the more rural areas of the north, if a Catholic family is being attacked by extreme Protestants and if the Catholic family's next door neighbour is aware that the Catholic family are unarmed, I believe the Protestant family will go to their defence. But if the Protestant family knows that the Catholic family have arms to defend themselves they are left on their own.

The same would apply if a Protestant family were being attacked by Catholics. I am quite certain the Catholic family would go to their defence knowing they were undefended and without arms. If the Protestant family realised that the Catholic family had arms they would also be left on their own. I see no purpose in using arms to defend oneself in the north. Admittedly, the argument can be put forward by both sides that one can sleep more comfortably while fearing attack if one has guns in the house but the answer is not to give somebody a gun, but to disarm the other people.

Let us examine the position of the extreme Unionist or Protestant groups which do not want, in any circumstances, to rejoin or have anything to do with the Republic of Ireland. Why is this? There are many reasons and we do not have all the answers and we must not put ourselves into the position of believing that they are always at fault. Since the foundation of the State we have continually alienated the Unionist or Protestant people north of the Border by our public statements. We have never tried to recognise that they also are Irishmen and have the same right so to describe themselves as have those born in the Twenty-six Counties. I hold that any person born in the Thirty-two Counties, of Irish parents, irrespective of his political or religious background, has an absolute right to say he is Irish. It is only right that we should accept that the Orange tradition is an Irish tradition, a repulsive thought possibly to many Republicans south of the Border, but it cannot be described as Japanese or Chinese or anything else but Irish. If we could only try to understand the Protestant people north of the Border and get them to understand us this terrible problem might be understood by more people than try to understand it today.

I had a question on today's Order Paper to the Minister for External Affairs asking him if during the recent discussions with the British Government and other people he had been approached on the question of de jure recognition of the Stormont Government. This is something which the Unionist Party would like to get. To the man in the street, even the extreme Republican, it is sophisticated talk that means very little. On reflection, when we have leaders of the Government, the Taoiseach, the Minister for External Affairs and other politicians of this Parliament saying that the political position of the Six Counties would not be interfered with except by majority decision of the people north of the Border, this is to me,de jure recognition. If it is, why not say so? If at some stage we want to unite the country by peaceful means we must get the goodwill of the people of the North who for reasons better known to themselves do not now wish to rejoin us. If de jure recognition means that people north of the Border would be allowed to decide by majority vote what they want. I am prepared to give that recognition provided the Stormont Government, at some future date, realising that the majority of the people want to rejoin this part of the country, give de jure recognition to that situation.

If we are to proceed along a road of co-operation we must recognise that north of the Border a majority want to remain in a partitioned state. The argument can be put forward that partition has been an evil but it is purely an argument. At this stage in our history it is a fact which must be recognised. Whether it was right or wrong to put it there is a matter for argument. I have heard arguments put forward that it was right and arguments put forward that it was wrong. The fact is that Partition is now established and north of that line almost one million people wish to be governed by a Unionist Party, wish to have close ties with Great Britain and do not want to come under the tricolour of the Republic of Ireland or to have our national anthem as theirs.

Despite this, these people are proud of the fact that they are Irish. It will seem a strange situation to the minds of many people south of the border but, as one who has tried to understand them this is the way I see it. If we are to win their goodwill, if we are to solve our differences in a peaceful way, then we must recognise the fact that they are there and co-operate with them in every way possible, ensuring at the same time that equal rights will be given to all sections of our community. Let me say also that when the Taoiseach or any other person makes statements reflecting on certain happenings north of the Border, it is his duty to make a protest to any person to whom he wishes to protest when Protestant people have been injured instead of protesting all the time when Catholic people are injured. We should recognise that the Protestant people north of the Border are equally the responsibility of an Irish Government and at some stage we hope they will play their full part in a 32-county Ireland.

Speaking here in October last I gave some reasons why I believed the Northern Protestants—if I may use that description—did not want to re-join the Twenty-Six Counties and why they wish to remain in a partitioned State. I have often asked: why was it their choice. Did they have the right to take this decision for themselves? These are debatable points. However, we must remember that even the title "united Ireland" that we have been trying to sell them is repulsive to the minds of this section of people of whom I am speaking "United Ireland" is too closely associated with "United Irelander", and we know what the United Irelander stood for. At least they have their interpretation of it and for a start off they are thinking from a point where a United Ireland means the Catholic will have victory over the Protestant or the Republican will have victory over the Unionist. This does not have to be the position at all.

The Northern Protestant does not want to be told that to be successful in Southern Ireland or in a 32-county Ireland one must know the Irish language and pass in the Irish language before passing certain examinations. As Members of this Parliament we realise that many people must have Irish before being admitted to the Civil Service and many civil servants will tell you that from the day they enter the Civil Service until they retire they never use the language. I have been told by a person who retired from the Department of Posts and Telegraphs that there were six ladies working in the office in which she worked for about 10 years—prior to that she worked in the Department of External Affairs—and when any Irish citizen phoned and spoke in the Irish language, there was only one person in that office competent to carry on a conversation in Irish. With all that we believe it is more important to have the Irish language for such reasons than it is to understand other types of Irish men and women.

We have heard statements from Members of the Fianna Fáil Party, a section of the party who now appears to be more tolerant, members like the Minister for Finance, Deputy Colley, to the effect that it was never the policy of Fianna Fáil to solve the Irish problem by the use of force but by peaceful means. The Minister for Finance would make us believe that peaceful means in his book was that he would sit down and explain to the Northern Protestant that he had all the answers and that if the Northern Protestant joined the Twenty-six Counties of Ireland everything would be grand but he would have to learn Irish before he could enter the public service. If he wanted to play the national game he could not play in the other games which are regarded as foreign.

In a 32-county Ireland, if a person wants to go to Mass ten times on a Sunday morning he should have that right. If he wants to go to the meeting house ten times on a Sunday morning he is entitled to do so. If he wants to lie in bed that is none of my business. If he wants to learn Irish he has that right also. If he does not want to learn it he should not be forced to do it. If he wants to play soccer football on a Saturday let him do so. If he wants to play Gaelic Football on a Sunday let him also do so. If he wants to play badminton instead, let him play badminton. If it were accepted that every Irishman has the right to do what he wants to do, and not be told by others what to do, then we could reach a situation where Catholic, Protestant and Dissenter would be true Irish people, a united people. Where you have a united people a border becomes irrelevant. Partition is completely irrelevant to the situation at the moment. If the removal of Partition were the only problem it could be removed north or south by the use of force, but if the attitudes of Irish people are not changed, then removing the Border will not matter. If we allow people the freedom to do what they want to do, as I have mentioned, to play whatever games they wish to play, to have the right to live under a Union Jack or to live under the tricolour, then we shall be coming nearer to solving the problem. We should be prepared to tell him: "Say what you like." If we do not like the idea we can tell him we despise him, but at the same time we recognise his right to do it. If we could only be friendly to them and say "Do as you want to do, but we want to live our way." If you could have a united people, then what difference would it make if the Six Counties were under a Union Jack or the Twenty-Six Counties were under the Tricolour? It makes very little difference to me and I could foresee a time, perhaps in the not too distant future, when another generation might say: "If you do not want a Tricolour and we do not want a Union Jack let us find another flag which Irish people in all of the Thirty-two Counties would respect." Let us not forget that the Tricolour was not always the national flag.

The point has been made very often that there is religious discrimination north of the Border. There is no religious discrimination north of the Border. There appears to be something very close to religious discrimination there. Let me go back to examples. I would be a hypocrite if I did not recognise the fact that if a Catholic and Protestant go for a job in the north and there is only the one job it is not the Catholic who gets the job. Therefore we throw up our hands in holy horror and say "religious discrimination". If we could only stop to think of a situation where two Protestants go for a job, one a Unionist supporter and the other a Labour Party supporter then we would know who would get the job. It is really political discrimination and not religious discrimination but I admit that this interpretation can be put on it. What right have the Fianna Fáil Government to criticise discrimination north of the Border? Most of the Fianna Fáil representatives on the county council in my constituency, as well as Members of both Houses of this Parliament, have stated openly that only those who do most for Fianna Fáil will get the jobs. Can anyone tell me the difference between the Unionist Party giving a job to a Protestant boy who is a member of the Unionist Party and the Fianna Fáil Party making sure that only those who hold cumann cards or membership cards will get the job? Is this not the tragedy at the moment? We have had a Unionist Party entrenched in the north and a Fianna Fáil Party entrenched in the south purely by keeping political patronage to themselves.

The Unionist politician who gives the job to the Protestant Unionist boy is not doing it because he is a Protestant but because he wants the Unionist Party to stay in power, for the same motives as the Fianna Fáil Party have on this side of the Border. If we want to encourage Protestant people north of the Border to re-join us this is one thing we could put in order. The Government could say "No more discrimination". I agree that discrimination will take place in every democratic society. Where you have more people than jobs you will have discrimination, be it religious, political or social, take your pick. However, the most damning thing of all is that while under the democratic system the people can sack a government and clear out the type of administration they oppose, the present Government by gerrymandering cut away the powers the people had to change the Government in the 1969 election. I know that Deputy Paddy Burke is saying that this is overdoing the argument, but Deputy Burke was in the same constituency as the former Minister for Local Govern-Deputy Boland, and he knows what I am talking about.

(Interruptions.)

Each Deputy knows his own constituency better than any other and I will stick to my own constituency. In County Donegal we have a population of 108,000. The Constitution demands that we have 20,000 per Deputy, with a minimum of three seats per constituency. The maximum is seven. We had various counties brought together in other parts of the country for election purposes, Carlow-Kilkenny, Laois-Offaly, Longford-Westmeath, which have more seats than three. Carlow-Kilkenny has five, Laois-Offaly has five and Longford-Westmeath has four. I think one other constituency in the south has five seats. Donegal could have been arranged as a five-seat constituency but that would have meant that the Fianna Fáil Party would have found it impossible to retain four seats out of five. Formerly they had four seats and Fine Gael had two. Therefore they gerrymandered the county of Leitrim, put part of it into Sligo, part of it into Roscommon, part of it into Donegal. They kept two three-seat constituencies for the sole purpose of keeping Fianna Fáil in the position of having four Deputies. This is the type of thing for which the republican Fianna Fáil Party criticise the Unionist Party. This is the type of thing which has converted the Catholic, the Nationalist or the Republican—we cannot get a proper description to fit that particular anti-Unionist section of the people north of the Border—but it converted those people who formerly had been Fianna Fáil supporters into severe critics of Fianna Fáil. Sometimes I think they are too severe in their criticism of Fianna Fáil leader but, if he accepts the responsibility, then he must accept the criticism. The Fianna Fáil Party gerrymandered the constituencies into three and four seaters— three seats where they could control two out of three and where this was not possible they organised it two out of four.

Deputy Cooney knows that at the meeting we attended last night most speakers were there merely to observe what was happening. We were not there to become involved. We wanted to understand the atmosphere in this mid-Ulster constituency. We had our political point of view. We came away with our own opinions. All the speakers on that platform were as severe in their criticism of the Fianna Fáil Party as they were of the Unionist Party. We asked ourselves why. Why did reasonable people, men with no association with the Twenty-six Counties, men whose fathers propagated the propaganda dished out by the Fianna Fáil leaders of their day, become such severe critics of the Fianna Fáil Party?

I will tell you why. Because they see a very close parallel between the Unionist administration in Stormont and the Fianna Fáil Party administration in the Twenty-six Counties. I am not being unfair in this. This is quite true. It is not their fault that they should take this point of view. They take it because Fianna Fáil have used the weapon of gerrymandering. They have practised discrimination, political discrimination and political jobbery. They are trying to perpetuate their own existence. They are holding on to power. This is what this is all about. It is about power. Fianna Fáil want to stay in power south of the Border. They are arrogant when someone criticises them. The thought of anyone suggesting that any party other than the Fianna Fáil Party has the right, the authority, the ability and everything else to govern this country is anathema to them. Fianna Fáil are so long in office they think they own the country. Likewise, the Unionist Party north of the Border have been so long in office that they think they have the divine right to rule forever and ever, amen. I am telling the story as I know it and I hope Fianna Fáil Deputies who are listening to me will accept it in the spirit in which I tell it.

Recently there was a discussion on television between the Tánaiste, Deputy Childers, and Mr. Brian Faulkner, Minister for Development in the north. I must say I enjoyed the discussion and I hope we will have many more of them. I thought some of Mr. Faulkner's arguments were false; others he put forward legitimately. One of the arguments he put forward legitimately was that more houses are being built north of the Border per head of the population than south of the Border. One of the most serious charges any Opposition can make against an administration is that they have failed to build houses for those who need them. Fianna Fáil have failed despite the fact that multi-storey buildings, office blocks, have been erected all over this city. Money has been provided for wall-to-wall carpeting, central heating, escalators and elevators. In some cases certain members of the Government had a personal choice in the selection of the kind of decoration their bathrooms would have. In the Book of Estimates of 1967—I think that was the year—there is an item which publicies the fact that the Taoiseach selected egg shell pink and the former Minister for Finance, Deputy Haughey, selected duck-egg blue at a cost of £1,000 per bathroom. This is waste of public money. People in my constituency had the honour of having a Minister for Local Government representing them. They now have a Parliamentary Secretary representing them. Despite that more houses are being built under Strabane Urban Council than are being built in the entire county of Donegal. That was the position 12 months ago certainly. This is the kind of judgments people north of the Border are being forced to make when they are asked to consider the reunification of this country.

Mr. Faulkner also made the claim that the selection of tenants north of the Border was on a points system. I dispute that. I think our system of selection is much better. The trouble is we are not building enough houses. But the system of selection is a fair one. We will not go into this now, but these are the things that people look at when we talk to them about a 32-county Ireland. What are their chances of getting a house? What is our housing record? What are our priorities when spending public money? Do we provide houses for people in need or do we build multi-storey office blocks? Not so very long ago in this city houses fell down and killed people, old people and young people. When we move around this city there are areas which are more like a bombed site even though this country remained neutral during the Second World War. Dublin as the capital of the country is an absolute disgrace. Certain areas—I do not want to be uncharitable—are literally slums. It is not because the people living in them want to live under these conditions. They have no option. Where else can they go?

We have Ballymun. I have been in Ballymun and progress must be acknowledged, but it came ten years too late. The houses we are providing at the moment should have been built ten years ago. As a newly elected member of Donegal County Council in 1960 I noticed that in 1957 the record for house building in that year was 157 houses; it dropped to 47 in 1963. We are now building more houses but we are only catching up with the backlog.

It was mentioned to me in private conversation that in the matter of informing people in the north about our way of life RTE might help by building booster stations along the Border. In those areas reception from RTE is poor and, consequently, people will continue to watch BBC and UTV only. We are missing a golden opportunity to show those people some aspects of life in the south. People living on the Donegal border of Tyrone and Derry have fairly good reception but in the places where most misunderstanding exists—in North Antrim, North Down and North County Derry —reception from RTE is very poor. I would ask the Minister for Justice who is now present to bring this matter to the attention of the Taoiseach and the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs.

In the debate last May I mentioned that we had accepted the situation that there were two States in this island and that we had divorced ourselves from the Irish people north of the Border— by Irish I mean Catholic and Protestant, Nationalist and Unionist. Consequently, it was difficult for Members elected to this House to appreciate fully the traditions and the everyday life of people in the north. I suggested the Taoiseach might consider co-opting to Seanad Éireann a number of Stormont representatives. I know that previous Governments invited some individuals in the north to be Members of Seanad Éireann and that the thinking behind that suggestion was they would come down here, explain their difficulties and that the press would report the matter. However, if the Taoiseach would accept the situation where the Labour Party, Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil agreed to co-opt elected representatives of the people in the north to be Members of Seanad Éireann, we would have something very close to a committee that was aware of the needs of the people in the north and in a position to put their points of view to Members here in private conversation or, as their authority would permit them, to Seanad Éireann.

At the time of the Treaty it was incorporated in the agreement that a Council of Ireland should be set up. I do not see any reason why the British Government should not be asked to invite members of the Governments in Dublin and Belfast to sit on such a council with representatives of the British Government and try to work out the difficulties. These difficulties will have to be settled, whether in the near future or at a distant date; we will have to sit down and talk to the people in the north who disagree with us and the best way to do this is to utilise the proposal contained in the Treaty for a Council of Ireland.

In a TV interview, Mr. Faulkner claimed—reasonably enough—that housing in the north was in advance of what obtained in the south. He also claimed they have better motorways; again, we cannot dispute this and can only point out that the subsidy they get from Great Britain permits this. He mentioned they have votes at 18 years; although this has been imposed on them by an Act of the Westminster Parliament, we cannot deny his claim. It is time this Parliament decided to follow the same course in this matter; indeed, voting at 18 years has been advocated by Fine Gael for some time past.

There comes a time when elected representatives of Parliament must come to terms with statements made outside Parliament. What would have been the position had the Taoiseach last May said: "I know the Minister for Agriculture, Deputy Blaney, and the Minister for Finance, Deputy Haughey, too well—I cannot sack them"? I do not consider that the judgement and findings of a court of law should be the subject of discussion in this House, but the public remarks of a judge when reflecting on political matters should——

The Deputy is now proceeding to deal with a matter that is completely the function of a member of the judiciary.

I do not want to cross swords with the Chair. I would not challenge the decision of a judge on a point of law or in arriving at a conclusion in a court case. However, when a judge in any court, whether the Supreme, High, district or circuit court, makes a public statement——

Again, the Deputy is proceeding to refer to a matter which was referred to in court. The statement of the judge cannot be adverted to here.

I want to protest in the strongest way at the remarks made——

The Deputy is still dealing with the matter although the Chair has told him he must not do so.

Will the Chair state what is the precise ruling?

It was ruled by the Chair today that judicial statements relating to the functions of the judiciary are matters not subject to discussion in this House.

When did this rule come into operation?

This has been the procedure for many years. There is a set way in which a judge can be dealt with.

I am doubtful about that.

I fully agree with the Chair that where a judge is disclosing his findings in a case this should not be the subject of discussion in this House. But I dispute with the Chair the right——

The Deputy may not dispute with the Chair. The Deputy is well aware of that.

I shall move to another point. All I want to say is that in the North of Ireland there is Lord Chief Justice McDermott who is under very severe criticism at the moment because of the imprisonment of a Member of Parliament. There are Mr. Justice McVeigh, Mr. Justice Lowry and Mr. Justice Curran. I wonder, if any of those people made the same statement, what type of reaction would be forthcoming from politicians south of the Border. I think it was despicable that a man should make such a statement and he should be asked to resign his office.

The Deputy is again going on to deal with the matter about which the Chair has already warned him.

I have now made the point.

Yes, but the Deputy has continued to do so despite the fact that he has been told he cannot do it.

One of the recent exciting events, if we can call it that, was the brief visit of the Minister for External Affairs to Belfast. I have no doubt this pleased many people in the Falls Road; I have no doubt it pleased many people in the right wing of the Fianna Fáil organisation but I doubt if it served any great purpose and while I concede that it may not have been the worst thing to do I would not recommend that the Minister for External Affairs should do it a second time.

I think it was the late G.K. Chesterton, when discussing Anglo-Irish relations, who said that the English should remember and that Ireland should forget. It serves no useful purpose for us to go on recalling ancient wrongs and things that happened beginning 700 years ago. However, I feel there is a duty imposed on us to examine the situation as regards the partition of our country which for many years has caused great suffering to the people on both sides of the Border and particularly in the last year when we have really seen the evils which come from the actions of a power like Britain in a small country. The vast majority of the people here do not want to go on recalling old wrongs. We are sincere in our desire to create conditions not alone for ourselves on this side of the Border but for the people of the Six Counties who are suffering today just as people down here are suffering from the effects of Partition.

I do not blame the Apprentice Boys of Derry or the Orangemen of Shankill Road but I do blame Britain as being the whole cause of Partition. I look on the Six Counties now as being Britain's Vietnam. There is a difference, The countries involved in Vietnam do not find it easy to disentangle themselves.

May I ask the Deputy one question?

With the permission of the Chair.

If the British Government pulled out the British Army from the North of Ireland at the moment what kind of situation does the Deputy envisage?

I shall deal with that later.

Can the Deputy not answer the question now?

Let him sleep on it for the night. He will be in a better position to answer it in the morning.

It is an extremely different viewpoint from the Taoiseach's, anyway.

What we must face here is that the people of the north and the people of the south have been manipulated by Britain for a long time and they have been used for Britain's purposes not in order to safeguard any beliefs of the Orange Order but because Britain cannot accept that she is no longer the great imperial power she once was and because, perhaps, the rulers of an empire must try to hold on to some remnant of that empire even if it is only six counties in the north eastern part of this country.

I feel some affinity with the Orangemen of the north because I believe they have fears, justifiable fears, as to what might happen should Britain leave the Six Counties. If peace must be preserved with 11,000 troops and thousands of policemen at an enormous cost that is just not peace. There must be some other answer. I feel that the people of the south joining with the people of the north irrespective of religion can work out a much better system of peace if they are allowed to do so without interference. The Apprentice Boys march for the 12th of August has been banned. One can well understand the confusion in the minds of the Apprentice Boys who see this march as a token of their survival as a section of the total population of the north. I do not think anybody down here would object to their marching as much as they want to and if they want to celebrate some rather doubtful victory of 300 years ago they are surely entitled to do so but they are not entitled of course to allow themselves to be the tools of certain elements who would use this march to crush a defenceless section of the people there. I am quite convinced that the vast majority of Protestants and Catholics all over the 32 counties do now want a better system obtaining in the north which will give to each man, irrespective of his religious beliefs, a guarantee of his right to hold those beliefs. Britain should try to shed some of her traditional stupidity and say there must be some way of ensuring peace in the north.

We must always remember that not one Orange vote was cast in favour of Partition. We must face the fact also that since the creation of Partition things have changed politically: indeed the whole world has changed. But what has not changed is the desire for peace among the decent elements of our people whether north or south of the Border. It may well be said that if Britain were to withdraw her armies tomorrow there would be trouble. A vacuum would certainly be created but I am convinced that if the people north and south were given an opportunity, without interference, to resolve the differences, they could do this. We may be unique, in Europe, in any case, in having such a long outstanding problem in the country. Seven hundred years is a very long time but even that problem must some day be resolved.

I think the action taken by the Government since last year has convinced the world and, I would say, many people in the North of Ireland that our desire is to unite the nation by peaceful means and by a guarantee to the people in the north who, at the moment, do not desire reunification that, within a united Ireland, they have nothing to fear; that they will have even more freedom than they now have; that they will have freedom to practise their faith as they see it; that we in this part of the country are dedicated to reunification and, not alone that, but dedicated to ensure that when the day of unity comes the Orangeman on the Shankill Road can walk in his processions and need have no fear that he will lose any of the rights which he at present enjoys.

It has been asked many times over: "Why should the Orangeman come in here? They have too much to lose." This is a great reflection on the Orange character. The people who make such statements demonstrate that they do not understand the picture. I feel that in some ways the Orangemen are highly idealistic. They may be terribly wrong, according to our viewpoint; we see them marching and wearing their sashes and we say this does no good in this century and that those are things that belong to the past and that we had thought all these things had passed. However, we must allow for their beliefs. We must bear in mind that they see something sacred and great when they march along on 12th July and 12th August. Certainly they have the right to march unless it creates a breach of the peace. When we talk of freedom we must always remember that freedom is conditional on ensuring that the other man has freedom also. We just cannot claim freedom ourselves whether we are Orange or Green. We must think of the other fellow's viewpoint too. If we could get this acknowledged both north and south then we would take a big step forward not merely towards the reunification of the country but to give the people of the north a better life than they have at the moment.

I hear people talk about housing down here. There are those who will say: "In the north, they build twice as much as we build here." This is a specious argument and certainly does no good in the cause of unity. Some time ago, I was involved in bringing a party from Dublin to Belfast Corporation to study their housing progress. We saw some magnificent progress had been made in the provision of houses in the north. However, I want to bring them down here to show them the progress we have made. Let me mention one point. In the south, our building industry is working to its fullest capacity. I wonder if tomorrow, if we could have all the money and all the land we needed for this purpose, we could build one extra house. This may be thought not quite relevant to the cause of unity but I think that whether the man lives in the Shankill Road, Belfast, or in the Crumlin Road, Dublin, if he is badly housed or overcrowded he will not examine too closely whether he will get a better house from an Orange builder or a Nationalist builder: his problem at the moment is housing. We have no reason to be ashamed of our housing here. Remember that we inherited a frightful legacy of bad housing. It is to the credit of all government since this State was founded that they have made a real effort to solve our housing problem. It must be remembered however, particularly in the south where the population is growing fast, where our people are marrying much earlier and where they are demanding, and rightly so, better standards, we have to re-examine our housing policy and our housing programmes. Where there are difficulties— I admit there are some—we must remove these and by a gigantic effort and by the sacrifice of all our people we must dedicate ourselves to getting as near as possible to the solution of our housing problem.

Let me speak of this city of Dublin. It is not that I ignore the rest of the country but it is because Dublin is the place with which, naturally, I have the closest contact. No living city, no growing city can ever fully solve its housing problem. However, the problem can be reduced to minimal proportions and I believe that in this city of ours we are doing that. I hope that Belfast Corporation will succeed in its efforts properly to house the people of Belfast whether they come from the Falls Road or the Shankill Road. The time must come when we must see not how we differ but how Orangemen and ourselves agree. The question of housing is one on which I found the Unionist Members of Belfast Corporation and the Nationalist members to be very sincere. They shared a longing and ambition and determination to house the people better. Here is one area in which we can have great unity between the north and the south in solving the common problem. If we attack all our problems in this way I have no fear that, some day in the not too distant future, by deciding to use more commonsense in an approach to common problems, we will find it much easier to solve them. However, I do say that Britain is the cause of much of the trouble in the north. Some day a British Government will be elected to Westminster that will recognise that it is no longer in Britain's interests to keep us divided. This day may well come when we join with the rest of Europe to form a united Europe. I know that both parties in Britain are united in their desire to join the EEC and the vast majority of people in this country want it also. The Government, the Fianna Fáil Party and the Fine Gael Party, have stated they think this is the best thing to do. I am convinced that, before many months have passed, the Labour Party in the same way as the British Socialist or the Dutch Socialist or the German Socialist, will see that, the big thing for the assemblies is a united Europe. From that, I believe will flow a great contribution towards Irish unity. Therefore, I cannot understand people who at the moment say that we will sacrifice our sovereignty if we should join Europe.

Debate adjourned.
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