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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 24 Nov 1970

Vol. 249 No. 12

Prices and Incomes (Temporary Provisions) Bill, 1970: Second Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

I had just started to discuss this very important measure last Wednesday night. I regard it as important because I have been in this House and seen the economy of this State going to pieces. I saw thousands and thousands of people unemployed and thousands of men, women and children going to the boats. I saw hundreds of houses idle and hundreds of houses which could not be finished because the money had run out. I do not want to see that situation again. Some of the people who were responsible for allowing the economy to get into that chaotic condition at that period are still Members of this House.

I am not concerned with the political affiliation of anybody, but I am concerned with the well-being of this nation. Is it likely that Fianna Fáil, with two by-elections on their hands, would introduce a Bill of this kind unless it was necessary? As a democrat I would like to see this matter resolved between the Irish Congress of Trade Unions and the Federated Union of Employers. In my day I chaired many conciliation meetings when there were disputes on. The chairman of a conference of this kind who would keep both sides talking would get something done. That is no reflection on the previous chairman. I suppose he did his best, but he is not here to defend himself.

People have accused the Minister of changing his mind from the hard line he had taken. The Minister is right to have changed his mind. As I said in this House before, it is often a good thing for any Government or Minister or individual to change their minds in the light of better knowledge. As far as we are concerned we have not cures for all ills as other people here think they have. I do not want this country to face again the ordeal it underwent from 1955 to 1957. I had the sad experience of people asking me to give them their fare to England or to do this or that for them in days when I had very little myself. We are criticised in relation to the building of houses. The housing authority of the city and county of Dublin was just washed out within a few months of being elected. The people talking about full employment now are the very people who did not consider the workers at that time; instead they ran away from their responsibilities.

This is a serious national position. It is not a position out of which we can gain political kudos. It is very easy for the Opposition to say they have a cure for full employment and a cure for bad housing. I have seen their crash programme for housing. There were 100,000 people unemployed; thousands and thousands of people left the country; 1,800 corporation houses were empty and many houses were left unfinished in the city and county of Dublin. I do not want to see that situation arising again. I know my colleague, the Minister for Finance, is trying to do everything he can, as Minister for Finance, to ensure that that position will never obtain again. As I met the constituents I had the honour to represent at that time——

Notice taken that 20 Members were not present; House counted, and 20 Members being present,

I want to put on record the fact that only one member of the Labour Party is present.

There were many more when the Deputy was speaking. We were all listening to him.

The Deputy, of course, is one of the perverts of the Labour Party.

A Deputy

He is the housekeeper.

(Interruptions.)

Before I was interrupted by Deputy Cluskey, who used to be a member of Dublin Corporation and was at one time Lord Mayor, I was telling the House about cases I had to deal with in Finglas and Ballyfermot during the crisis when the Labour Party, the Fine Gael Party and Clann na Poblachta were in the Coalition Government. The political, economic adviser to the then Taoiseach was the Right Honourable Professor Deputy John O'Donovan. He made a very good job of it.

He did not get money at 2½ per cent.

At that time I had to go to the corporation day after day and ask them not to evict or prosecute those corporation tenants who remained here. I never want to see this happening again. I spent many a heartbreaking day and night helping these people.

No political party wants to interfere with the free conciliation machinery open to employer and employee. The Minister has been good enough to say he will meet the Trade Union Congress and do anything he can to help. He cannot go any further than that. He is carrying out the wishes of his party. We are not a dictatorial party. A certain gentleman who had the honour of chairing a number of meetings referred to us as being an autocratic party. If it is autocratic to save employment for our people then we are autocratic. I would ask the Minister to do everything in his power to save employment, to see that hospitals and houses are built and to see that in every budget social services are improved for the weaker section.

We are all sick of listening to the nonsense we hear from the pro-socialist organisations: "Labour near decision". I have never heard the Labour Party make a constructive statement in the 27 years I have been a Member of this House. It is very easy to criticise and tear things asunder from time to time but I appeal to the people, no matter what their political views are, to think nationally on this occasion and ask themselves what Government will serve them best instead of listening to this phoney stuff about full employment and a crash programme for housing.

Anything to get away from the by-elections.

I did not hear my honourable colleague but I am sure he will help me out later on.

Deputy Tully does not like what Deputy Burke is saying, understandably enough.

Deputy Tully is a very decent man.

The Minister is not criticising the Deputy's speech?

The fact that Deputy Tully does not like it is anything but a criticism.

I am very grateful to the two Deputies for their help but I shall try to carry on for another few minutes if they will give me a chance.

The Deputy should go on until the 3rd December.

Having listened to the socialists' programme, may I say to the pros—I would not call them pro-socialists—that we on this side of the House are Christian socialists! At budget time we try to distribute the money at our disposal in the best way we can to help the weaker sections of the community. We are concerned with all sections of the community and not just one section only. We are trying to ensure that no section goes hungry and that no section goes without shelter. If that is not Christian socialism of the highest degree I do not know what it is. If it is a mortal sin to try to save people's jobs and the economy of the country then we are guilty.

There are a few venial sins of which Fianna Fáil have been guilty too recently.

Deputy O'Leary is a good hand at making hypothetical speeches about pie in the sky but, as a practical politician, he is just serving his time. He has a long way to go yet. I am almost 27 years in this House and I am still serving my time.

The Minister is quite properly accepting his responsibility. If the Labour Party Deputies were constructive instead of destructive they would get more support because people would appreciate they were a responsible party. There are people who, from public platforms at the moment, are painting us as dictators, interfering with free bargaining, with this, that and the other. Would those people like to see us back in the position in which the country was in 1956 and 1957? There were thousands unemployed. There was economic chaos. There was depression. There was neither a loan nor a grant for houses. If one owed a bank £2 one got a letter telling one to pay up. The Coalition Government rocked the boat. Believe it or not, there was not the price of a bag of cement in the kitty. There were promises and nothing but promises. These were the people who were going to cure all our ills. The present leader of the Labour Party was a Minister in that Government. There was no political foresight in that Government and we are still suffering from the consequences of that curious lack. It took Fianna Fáil six years to get over the appalling mismanagement of the Coalition Government.

Was that why Fianna Fáil did not build any houses around Dublin during those years?

The Coalition Government had not bought any land.

Instructions were given to sell all the land. The engineers and the craftsmen emigrated and they have never come back.

They had to leave because Fianna Fáil were building no houses.

I shall never again seek economic advice from the Deputy. He is a gracious, kindly man but his economic philosophy is not successful. I came into this House in 1944. We had built up certain assets in Britain during the war years and these assets were dissipated during the period in office of the inter-Party Government. I heard the fallacies preached. We were building hotels so that tourists could eat our food. Our tourist industry was bound to fail. At that time our tourist industry was worth less than £1 million. Now it is worth almost £100 million.

No one likes to see a Bill of this kind introduced, least of all the Minister. It would be much easier for the Minister to pretend that everything in the garden was lovely. Every government in the western hemisphere have had their problems and have had to solve those problems. I trust that people will appreciate that what we are doing now is being done in their best interests. We would like to see everyone with a great deal more money. We would like to see more prosperity. We have come a long way under our own resources. We had to depend for anything we have on our own people. We want to preserve and protect our people's prosperity and well-being. During the last four or five years we have spent almost £16 million on extending services in Dublin city and county. We hope to spend another £40 million on further extensions. What would be the situation if that drive suddenly ceased?

We have gone into the export market in quite a big way. We want to ensure our ability to complete successfully in that market. The only way in which we can do that is by facing up to our responsibilities. Everything we do is in the interests of our people, in the interests of their children and their children's children. Again, I say to the Labour Party that all we ask from them is their co-operation.

Housewives have been appreciative of the efforts made by the Minister to stabilise food prices. The provision regarding restriction on increases of rents is worthwhile and should be welcomed by all. In this Bill there are worthwhile provisions in relation to expenditure by landlords, in the matter of certain lettings, records of employment and returns by companies.

The restriction on increases of rents is a major step forward. At the moment in the case of lettings in this city the sky is the limit. The people concerned must realise that what they are doing affects the economy as a whole. We have had reports of hotels and restaurants increasing their charges and, again, this can affect adversely our tourist industry.

It is difficult to have absolute control over prices but the Minister is making a valiant effort to do this and we must wish him success. The most important task is to get the co-operation of the people. They must realise that any decision we make is in their interest and in the interests of their children. The prosperity of this country is at stake. All of us, and this includes the Irish Congress of Trade Unions and the Employers' Federation, should do everything possible to help the Minister clear up the misunderstanding that has been created by some people. We should remember that the provisions before us are of a temporary nature. They do not constitute a standstill on wages because a percentage is allowed and the Minister is not interfering where negotiations have been entered into. It is much better that the restrictions be enforced for one year; the alternative could mean ruin for our economy. The Minister has my sympathy and encouragement. He is doing a good job and may God bless him.

I shall be brief in my comments because all that has to be said regarding this Bill has been stated by other speakers. They have referred to its obvious inadequacies and have made the point that the Bill does not tackle the roots of inflation. They have made the point that the spiral of rising prices followed by salary increases will continue at the end of 1971, probably in an accentuated form. It has been stated that the Bill is a panic measure, that it does not answer the needs of the economy and comes after a series of mistakes in the management of the economy.

Probably the major mistake early this year was the Budget itself. Admittedly, the present Minister for Finance did not draw up the terms of that Budget but, when he became Minister for Finance, he committed himself totally to its terms during the course of the Budget discussion. At the time I thought it was extraordinary support to give to a Budget he did not introduce. However, he gave that support totally and without qualification, as can be seen from the Official Report.

The Budget early this year did nothing to damp down the inflation that was raging throughout the country. The increase of turnover tax threw fuel on the flames and merely aggravated the problem. We pointed out that, in practical terms, the increase in turnover tax would not be confined to a 2½ per cent increase. We stated that it would lead to further calls for wage claims and add to the difficulties many working people were experiencing in attempting to cope with the increased cost of living.

The Budget was a grievous error: it was incomprehensible when it was introduced and it is even more so now. The Minister now comes to the House and seeks support for the Prices and Incomes Bill. The Minister does not inspire us with confidence in his judgment and the provisions of the Bill do not convince any of us that it will lead to an improvement in the matter of incomes.

The Minister's speeches prior to the introduction of the Bill, as well as the Bill itself, have alienated major sections of the trade union movement. The Bill was not introduced into this House without introductory speeches by the Minister. In the early stages he announced his intention of not honouring the 12th round pay agreement. Therefore, even if the Bill were the best in the world, the Minister's opening salvos in introducing the Bill were disastrous in their consequences. After the Minister's reckless intervention it can be questioned whether the employer labour conference can ever be the same again. The Minister's sally into the sphere of industrial relations this year will probably be seen in years ahead as the most disastrous intervention by any Minister in the last ten years.

The clauses of the Bill give no sign of departing from this mistaken way of dealing with the problem. The employer-labour conference structure may well be affected and the whole concept of free negotiations between employers and employees has sustained deep injury. The Minister stands convicted of contributing to this serious turn of events.

I do not know what was in the Minister's mind when he suggested at the outset that the 12th round of the agreement he had entered into would not be honoured. Some advisers may have suggested that there would be some psychological bonus to be gained from saying that he intended to stop the 12th round and to stop the gains offered in that round being given to employees. They may have suggested that there would be some psychological bonus to the employees when, in fact, the Minister changed his mind on this decision of his not to honour the 12th round agreement.

If such advice was tendered it was very mistaken and certainly misunderstood. It disimproved the whole climate of trust between employer and employee. It helped to make matters worse. Many trade unions, and those who have experience in this field, know that the whole idea of phased agreements and of employees agreeing to accept increases 12 months ahead was a hopeful sign in the arrangement of incomes in this country. If modest, it was, to some extent, a rational approach to the matter of incomes and their distribution. Where one could get employees to agree to take a percentage increase one year, and more the following year, this move contributed to an orderly assessment of how we should distribute incomes throughout the community.

It is no secret to say that the future of phased agreements looks bleak. The union leaders, at the end of 1971 or 1972, suggesting to their members that they might abide by a phased agreement, would not get an encouraging reception following the Minister's recent mishandling and intervention in this area. The Minister has contributed to growing militancy on the part of the unions as a result of his recent speeches and actions. It does not matter that he withdrew from his first ridiculous position. The damage had already been done.

I do not see how we can trust either the Minister or this Government to come to a correct assessment of what should be done. They stand convicted for adding their own quota to the inflationary processes at work. They ignored the warnings given and dismissed them as Opposition speeches. They did not consider that the warnings merited serious consideration. We have this Bill now. The speeches leading up to its publication and the psychological climate and mentality which produced it, and notably the Minister's own speeches, have worsened the situation considerably.

In fairness, I do not see how one could ask the unions and the employers to come together nationally for rational, meaningful discussions. The possibility remains that the Minister may be totally out of touch with the point the negotiations have reached in the national discussions. Some people who took part in the discussions have already mentioned that the Minister appeared to be out of touch with what was happening at the employer/labour conference. It has been said that the Minister's intervention was disastrous. The Minister's first intervention came two months before the conclusion of the conference, and it terminated any possibility of success.

We come now to the reasons one cannot support this Bill. How can one suggest that this is a sincere attempt to control the rise in prices? There have been many warnings during the past two years of the massive increases in prices. It is not an original observation to suggest that prices were rising at a phenomenal rate. I do not know of any other European country where prices have risen so fast. Prices have risen by 17½ per cent in the last two years.

If the Government had wished the trade unions to moderate their wage claims, action obviously was called for at an earlier stage in order to control prices. This was the approach adopted by other countries in a similar situation. On the other hand, we ignored those warnings. When Deputy Colley was Minister for Industry and Commerce, we on many occasions raised the problem of rising prices. The Minister told us then that he was not aware of any complaints on that score. The Minister considered that the existing price control machinery was adequate.

This Bill shows, in view of the changes inaugurated on the prices machinery front, that the previous machinery is not considered adequate. There is no guarantee that prices will stop rising in 1971. All evidence points to further increases in prices at a time when the Government are seeking to stall wage increases. If this Bill is carried, we can predict that, by the end of 1971, employees will be worse off than they are this Christmas. The trade unionists of this country will be poorer than they are now.

There is no attempt to clarify the intent of this Bill to control prices during this 12-month period. The Minister has shown sympathy towards the need for price increases: he spoke during the Budget debate of having examined applications for price increases. He told Deputies that they would sympathise with many of those applications if they were in a position to read them, as he was. I am not suggesting that certain price increases are not warranted. The Minister appeared to have more understanding of the factors leading to price increases than he has for those at the receiving end of the same price increases.

We can ask how we could support a Bill which we can foresee leaving the poor poorer and the rich richer in one year's time, if this Government are still in office to see its full passage. We could not in conscience support this Bill. It is a stopgap measure. The fundamental thinking behind it assumes that if we can halt the wage increases for a year stability will be restored to the economy. This is a fundamental misconception. It is one-sided in its effect. It will not control prices and, in fact, it will not stabilise wage increases in our economy. Rather it will have an explosive effect and we will have a real move forward for very large increases at the end of 1971. The Bill does not improve the area of industrial relations between employers and employees. Industrial relations will be worsened as a result of the provisions in this Bill.

If the Bill has damaged the overall atmosphere of trust and the whole organised structure of industrial relations, it can also be said to have dampened down any possibility of what I would refer to as creative or constructive relations between employer and employee. One of its clauses actually puts a stay on productivity agreements in the year of the Bill's duration, 1971. It states that there should be no change in such productivity agreements over this particular area and, in effect, says there must be a moratorium, a stay, on all innovation based on productivity agreements during 1971. In other words, those employers and employees who base the improvement of their relations between themselves on the rock of productivity must, during 1971, no longer constructively base their relationship on productivity. The Bill specifically forbids them so to arrange their affairs.

Whether the Bill, if enacted, will call for even sterner measures against the unions at any time in the year in question—further restriction on their scope for withdrawal of labour, and so on—the Minister has not yet said. This is not simply a fantasy of the people in Opposition. We have had previous expressions of intention to control unions in relation to their freedom to negotiate.

Nobody here would suggest that our economy is not in a bad way and that we do not face serious problems. I fear we are much closer to the type of situation Deputy Burke mentioned in relation to the middle-fifties than some Members of this House may realise. No doubt some members of the Government realise it. If we are not close to national bankruptcy we are certainly very close to increasing unemployment, emigration, and all the ugly and sad things that happen when we have an increase in unemployment.

I believe that had action been taken, in sufficient time, on the prices front there would have been trade union response to such Government action. Had the Government won moral authority in this area by demonstrating their determination to control prices I think we would have found a response from trade unions. The trade unions were left alone to cope with rising prices and, coming on to the 13th round agreement, they were putting forward large claims for increases which, in the light of experience of rising prices over the past two years, were necessary and essential.

The experience of other countries suggests that had the Government tackled prices in a determined fashion the response of trade unions would have been favourable. In the sense of the positive direction of the economy, of meeting the problem of inflation, of doing something about our adverse balance of payments situation, and of bringing about a growth in the economy, we have not had such government here since November, 1968. Since the PR campaign, I do not imagine we have had any government of this sort in this country. The events of the past year suggest the Government had not time to think about their business in the past 12 months. Nobody would quarrel because a party has internal problems but it is a matter of concern to all of us when the party happens to be in government; we are all involved in the mess; we are all involved in the things they did not deal with.

The Taoiseach recently said that inflation is a world-wide phenomenon. Various Governments have sought to tackle the problem as their circumstances suggested. We shrugged the problem aside. Our whole taxation policy added to the dimension of our problem. Our Budgets are monuments to the absence of measures to cope firmly with inflation here. In conscience, we could not support this Bill. It does not give any guarantee of rigid control of prices over the next year. It does not add up to any Government realisation that to control inflation means controlling it at the correct time. A carefully determined schedule of control is necessary. By trying to tackle all the problems at once, by confining the operations to a year and by giving no guarantee about control of prices, the prospect is that the end of the year 1971 will see a really horrific situation in which our inflationary problems will not be even half-way towards solution. The danger is that, if this Bill is enacted we shall be worse off before the end of 1971 than we are now.

If industrial relations have been damaged then this Bill adds to the damage. Consider the provision which empowers the Government to take over union funds. Whether this power conflicts with our ratification of Convention No. 87 of the ILO is something that requires more study. Article 4 of Convention No. 87 states that workers' and employers' associations shall not be liable to be dissolved or sustained by administrative authority. It is arguable whether the deregistration of a union—the witholding of an negotiating licence—becomes an essential condition of a union's existence and whether the power to take away the licence of a union by seizing its funds amounts to dissolution under the terms of Convention No. 87. This matter should be looked into closely.

Certainly, it can be said that the Government's intention to seize union funds must further affect relations between employer and employee. To think that they can be improved against the background of this Bill is naïve. If we are sincere and serious about improving industrial relations, it is almost a platitude to say that the rôle of government should be one of improving the organisational structure between employer and employee. When this neutral balance is titled at any stage in the direction of one or the other of these pillars of our economy, there is trouble in store for us. Where it seems the balance has been so titled, and where there appear to be penalties aimed at the actual corporate existence of the unions, it can be said there will be little constructive advance in relations between employer and employee. I do not think anyone can say this is a healthy situation and it cannot be said that we can look forward hopefully to controlling inflation.

To control inflation a partnership between Government, employers, employees and their unions is needed. This Bill and the Minister's statements disrupt any possibility of any such partnership being a reality in the coming year. Theoretically and on paper the Bill may appear to be an answer to some of the problems we face but it is a superficial, facile and panic measure. It does not show any evidence of a serious analysis of our problems having been undertaken by the Government. The Bill does not call for support and it does not justify support on this side of the House.

Our Budget arrangements contributed to growing inflation. Various developments in industrial negotiations have been seriously harmed. Phased agreements may become of interest only to historians of industrial relations. I suggest that the man or woman who would advocate a phased agreement in 1972 or 1973 would get a very bad reception. The phased agreement was one of the hopeful developments in our industrial relations. It was a modest one and it did not achieve the full objective of an incomes policy of course, but it was a step in the right direction. Theoretical and dogmatic conceptions should be discarded in the area of industrial relations. We should be satisfied if we can advance step by step in the right direction.

I am suggesting that this Bill represents a backward step. It is a one-sided approach to the problem. It is superficial. It will not solve the inflationary problems we are faced with and it is particularly tragic that this should be the Government's response at this time of danger to our economy. I am convinced that our economy is at that dangerous stage and that a large increase in unemployment is possible during next year. The figures for last month show an increasing trend towards rising unemployment. Whatever about politics and political parties it is regrettable that the Government of the day have lost the confidence of the unions at this terribly crucial time when confidence between all the important elements in the economy is so essential if the country is to ward off some of the problems.

Admittedly, inflation as a world phenomenon is beyond our control but we have failed to take the steps, the logical and intelligent steps at the right time, to try to surmount our problems. We failed this year and last year. We had the evidence of rising prices, but no action was taken. This Bill gives no guarantee that increases in prices can be held back during the coming year. At the same time, it is clear that some control is sought over wages. There has been too much aggravation. As employees have been left severely alone in the past year as they faced rising prices, I do not imagine that this Bill will get a constructive reception from the trade unions. They have lost confidence in the ability of the Government to legislate for the economy as, in fact, we have ourselves.

I disagree strongly with the methods adopted by the Government. I disagree strongly with their view on the economy. They have been contradictory in practically every statement they have ever made in relation to our economy, and particularly during the past 12 months or so. I accept my responsibilities, as I am sure other Deputies do, as a public representative in saying that we are all in this together and in saying that the national economy and the outlook generally in the country at the moment are extremely bad. One must indict the Government entirely for that and nobody else. They have no excuse whatsoever. They were given a safe and workable majority at the last general election. The people trusted them and voted for them because they thought they would bring some sort of stability to the nation as a whole. This Bill which is brought into the Dáil for us to pass is an admission of total failure.

How can the Government expect everybody else to retrench and save money when they are not doing so themselves? We knew that when the extra 2½ per cent turnover tax was imposed in this year's Budget disaster was absolutely bound to follow in its wake. Economists always have some deep scheme in their minds, worked out in figures. I understand that economic advice was offered to the then Minister for Finance in 1964, to the late Dr. Ryan, that he should impose a turnover tax and that everything would be lovely afterwards. He was informed by his advisers of that day—and I understand most of them were economists—that all he had to do was impose a 2½ per cent turnover tax, expand the economy, and give all the social services he wanted and that, if he were in trouble, he could come back with a further imposition of the turnover tax. Unfortunately, that advice was accepted by the present Minister's predecessor and a further 2½ per cent was imposed last spring. We face very serious trouble as a result.

On top of that, the present Minister brought in another Budget the other day and we had a further imposition of taxation. So, the Government are spending more and more and asking the people to spend less and less, and to save money. How can anybody be expected to save money when every time a question is asked in the Dáil about the value of the £ we are told it is depreciating?

The member of the Government I feel rather sorry for in this debate is the Tánaiste, because he seems to have been the one member of the Fianna Fáil Party who has gone up and down the country preaching inflation for the past 12 months and, apparently, his colleagues would not listen to him. He seems to have been the one man who realised that we were heading for some sort of financial disaster so it was only reasonable to expect that he would have been sent in here, as he was. He spoke the other day and tried to support his colleagues in the action they are at present taking. The gist of what he said was that there is inflation all over the world—that is not any reason why we should have inflation in Ireland—and that the Government did not do anything about it because they felt the time was not right to do anything about it, that the people would not accept any restriction on their expenditure until the crisis was upon us.

We now know that the Fianna Fáil method of government is to wait until the country is practically broke and then to impose restrictions. However, they did not impose the restrictions in the way they wanted to impose them. We always seem to be plagued in this country with a threat either of a general election or of by-elections. The Minister for Finance came out as a strong silent man recently. He would bring in legislation and force the trade unions to accept his will as the law and there would be no redress. We were told the nation was faced with disaster and he had to do this. Then we had the prospect of two by-elections and the situation changed. Now we have this Bill from which nobody can get a clear picture of what the Government intend to do.

I believe the Government have not withdrawn one inch. They have only pretended to withdraw. Of necessity they must withdraw because the ballot boxes will speak again in two by-elections but they have left the situation open to impose the original restrictions. First of all, it was 6 per cent. The only thing they have given way on—they were forced to give way on it because the Fine Gael Party came out very strongly on it—is to allow the 12th round. That is in the Bill because it specifically mentions the date 16th October and any agreements prior to that which covers the 12th round. They have not withdrawn on anything else. The actual 6 per cent no longer exists but it is replaced by whatever the Government decide is permissible in the national economic interest.

How can the Government expect the country to listen to them? How can they have any credibility when one day they say one thing and another day they say another, when they are afraid to come out and face facts? A few weeks ago they got a majority behind them because all the tied hacks walked into the lobby and voted for them. They know that all the tied hacks will do that on every occasion that arises. They have the majority. They have what they are always searching for—a strong Government, in voting power anyway, to do what they want to do. Can they not come clean with the people instead of messing about and giving the impression that they are calling the whole thing off while still leaving it open to jump in again when the ballot boxes have spoken? Any government who spend their time looking at the ballot boxes and worrying about them when there is a national emergency are not worthy of the name of a government.

Everything that is being brought in now is eyewash. Whether they intend to try to rectify our economy or not remains to be seen. I sincerely hope they will do so and that there will be no inflationary rises in prices or in salaries. The fact is that the country cannot stand it. We are supposed to be negotiating for entry to the Common Market. Although one of the political parties, I believe, opposes our entry, it looks to me as if the majority of the Dáil have decided on that point. We cannot afford any further inflation. We are all in this, not only the people who are responsible for controlling prices, not only those who are pressing for higher wages: we all have a responsibility to the country when we are faced with a disastrous situation. That does not in any way let the Government off. They are responsible for it and nobody else.

I wonder if the Government ever thought of the idea which is being propounded at present in Britain where they are also faced with inflation. It is always an unpopular thing to suggest something that has been suggested by a conservative party but the Conservative Party in Britain have a definite approach to their problem. It is quite a different approach to the one we have here. Our approach here is to impose more taxation, to put more on the people's backs and stop them spending. The Conservative Party's approach is to reduce taxation. They have already given a guarantee that they will reduce taxation by a considerable amount. By doing that they maintain they are in a position to say to the people, "We have cut down our expenditure. Can you not stop your pressure, too?" In other words, they will allow private enterprise to operate.

In this country it is different. We are to have more taxation, more restriction on the individual per taxation and more and more restriction on the private rights of the individual. I have nothing to do with business but I have many contacts with business people. They all know that the country is rampant with inspectors at present, running hither and thither, searching books, going into everybody's private business on the pretext of controlling prices, whereas their real interest is to gather all the taxes they can so that the Government can have more money to spend. If we say a word about that we are called diehards and we are supposed to be against the old age pensioners. What did Fianna Fáil give the old age pensioners? They gave them a rise in the cost of living so that they can barely exist. Though they may have more money than they had before, their circumstances are very much worse than they were several years ago.

That is not true.

The Deputies on the Government benches should go back to 1957 when we were supposed to be faced with disaster, supposed to be on the point of bankruptcy.

We were bankrupt.

We were not bankrupt.

In 1957, for Deputy Briscoe's information, one could go out with a pound note and buy a great deal more than one could buy in 1970 under a Fianna Fáil Government.

If one had a pound note.

There may be higher wages here, agricultural workers may be getting £14 a week to which they are entitled. It is towards the lesser paid worker that I am sympathetic, not the higher paid worker, the fellow who is getting £25 or £26 a week for watching a machine. I am more interested in the lower paid worker, the man with £14 a week. Any agricultural worker will tell you that that is not buying him what his smaller wage bought him in 1957 in spite of all the howling and screaming from the Fianna Fáil benches about it. That is all they have to fall back on, the national economy, and they are supposed to be trying to save the country. They have been at that for years.

I shall quote now for the benefit of the Minister for Finance, who is not here — no doubt he will read the Official Report — from a journal called Public Affairs published by the Institute of Public Administration. There is an article on inflation in the October, 1970 issue and I shall quote from page 11.

The resurgence of confidence in financial assets is a pre-condition for increased savings. Increased savings would be a particularly valuable method of reducing inflationary pressures. It is significant that during the recent inflation net Post Office savings, Bank deposits, sales of Saving Certificates and Prize Bond issues have remained static.

In other words, those who have money to invest — I want to tell Deputy Briscoe, who has such confidence in the Fianna Fáil Party — have no confidence in the Fianna Fáil Government whatever. The banks were closed for five or six months. If there was confidence in the present Administration surely Post Office savings would have increased considerably during that time, but they remained static. Where is the money going to? It is going outside the country and this is happening because the people have lost confidence in Fianna Fáil. The Government have no one to blame but themselves. Instead of dealing with issues that were of vital importance to the nation as a whole, they frittered away their time fighting among themselves as to who should lead the clan. There has been an outflow of money from this country during the past six months and the full effects of this, when they become known, will be staggering to the people.

In relation to what this Bill proposes to do or what it does not propose to do, it is difficult to say because in a sense the Bill is ambiguous. We do not know whether the Government will take strong action. We do not know whether they will try to control the financial situation. We do not know whether they will reach agreement with the unions. At this point I might say that the trade unions have as much responsibility to the community as has any other section. We were told that there was an attempt to reach agreement between employers and employees but that the attempt failed. I ask those who represent those who speak for the trade unions to recognise the fact that the unions have as much responsibility to the country as has any other sector and that they should have as much interest in the preservation of our future as has any other section of the community.

With regard to prices and incomes, I wonder how often, how long and by how many people who are in a position to know, have the Government been warned of the necessity of controlling prices but they said this was impossible. Everything suggested by Fine Gael is impossible to them. It is extraordinary that during the time I have been in this House-almost 20 years — I have been hearing good advice from these benches but that this advice has been disregarded always by Fianna Fáil. Everything we say is disregarded but very often some time afterwards a Minister introduces a Bill with the very ideas that were promulgated from these benches and we are told that this is a new line of thought from Fianna Fáil.

I shall not detain the House any longer. I am sure that the Deputies opposite have resented strongly the remarks I have made about them because the truth is always painful. The truth is this: over there is a party who have behind them a trained Civil Service and all the assistance they could possibly require to govern the country, but this they have failed to do. They have wasted almost two years of parliamentary time doing nothing. They come to us now crying about a crisis. I wonder if they will have the guts to go ahead and do what must be done or if they will run like rats with their tails between their legs afraid to do what is possibly the unpopular thing. I hope they will do what is necessary to put the country on its feet again.

Before I sit down I should mention that in 1957, the late Gerard Sweetman, as the then Minister for Finance, did what was unpopular when he imposed restrictions, but Fianna Fáil cried and howled and went to the country. The people decided against us and Fianna Fáil, when they were returned to office, not only left the restrictions that had been imposed but they imposed them permanently. That is how far one can trust the standing and the integrity of Fianna Fáil. So far as I can see, they intend to remain in power for the remainder of their time of office, if they can. If they do, I can only hope that they will face up to their responsibilities and that they will not mess this country about any more than they have done already.

Listening to Deputy Esmonde one could not help but notice the contradictions in his contribution particularly towards the end of his speech. He states that we do not have the courage to introduce unpopular measures when called upon to do so. He cites what happened in the case of the Coalition Government having introduced unpopular measures in 1957 and he gives that as the reason why they were not returned to power. However, the Deputy fails to recognise that the reason the Coalition were not returned to power was that they made the fatal mistake of causing people to lose their employment.

The figure now is about 60,000 unemployed.

It is about 94,000 at the moment.

I remember an old saying my father taught me and it is that figures cannot lie but liars can figure. Sometimes it is possible to do almost anything with figures. First and foremost, this Government are concerned with the protection of employment for our people. We have achieved in this country one of the highest standards of living in the world. There are very few other countries who have achieved the same standard of living. When going along the streets of Dublin at the moment canvassing for the by-election I see around me the fine homes in which people are living — very beautiful homes.

The Deputy cannot say anything about there being beautiful homes in Donegal because most of the houses have fallen.

I have been impressed by the vast improvement in the living standards of our people.

The Deputy must have been in Mount Merrion.

Has Deputy Briscoe been impressed by what Deputy Blaney and Senator McGlinchey said about Protestants while they were speaking in Donegal the other night? They are trying to divide Irishmen.

Deputy Briscoe without interruption.

The Deputy cannot be endeavouring to unite Irishmen by that kind of remark.

That is the sort of unity that is being preached by Deputy Blaney and Senator McGlinchey in Donegal. They are a disgrace to the party and should be removed.

The Deputy must be allowed to continue without interruption.

I do not think it is right that these accusations should be made against people who are not here to defend themselves.

Deputy Briscoe cannot defend them and he is much too decent to try.

Deput Briscoe is responsible only for his own statements. He must be allowed to make his speech.

He should have some say in the party because he is a decent man.

I should like to think that people on the other side of the House as well as this side are all in favour of the unity of our people regardless of colour, creed or anything else.

All good people are, but not Deputy Blaney or Senator McGlinchey.

We must get back to the Prices and Incomes Bill which is before the House.

These two men have been preaching hatred in Donegal.

No one is preaching hatred.

Donegal can boast of some of the best people in the country.

The Parliamentary Secretary is a disgrace. He said the other night——

Deputy L'Estrange must cease interrupting.

Those people are not here now.

(Interruptions.)

The Chair wants Deputy L'Estrange to cease interrupting.

It is a pity Senator McGlinchey and Deputy Blaney are not here.

People are not here to answer those charges. Deputy L'Estrange would not make those charges if those people were here to defend themselves. He would probably try but he would not get away with them very well. The fact is that no one on our side is in favour of any use of force. Let me make that clear.

The Taoiseach marched behind the funeral of Seán South.

Would Deputy L'Estrange please cease interrupting? Would Deputy Briscoe please keep to the Prices and Incomes Bill?

I would be delighted to if I am allowed. I still think Deputy L'Estrange should control himself.

The Deputy is well able to control himself.

The Chair will insist on no more interruptions. Deputy L'Estrange will have to leave if he cannot cease interrupting.

I will leave. There is nothing left but the hills. They have the people driven out.

There are plenty of people there and you will find out soon enough. As I said before I was interrupted, we have achieved in this country one of the highest standards of living among many countries in the world.

For fewer people.

There are very few countries who have as high a living standard as we have. We have achieved this through hard work which has helped to build up the country which we have today. We have more cars than ever before. People are better dressed than ever before. If you go down any street in any of the corporation schemes or anywhere else you will see cars parked outside almost every house.

That is happening all over the world.

You will see television aerials put up. People are doing well. We want that to continue.

On the hire purchase.

That does not matter. The fact is the people have the money. Deputy Esmonde referred to the fact that in 1957 you could buy more with a £ than you can buy today. That is true but there were not so many people who had a £ in 1957 to buy anything.

There were more people.

It is the old chestnut, if you like of when somebody says " What about the 2d on the pint?" and another answers "Is it not better to put 2d on the pint and have the 2d to pay for it than to take 2d off the pint and not have any money to buy the pint?" Taxes have risen during the years and will continue to rise as prosperity increases. We are anxious to see that we do not lose all by irresponsible wage demands being put in. Nobody in all honesty can say that the wage demands which have been put in in recent months have been of a responsible nature. We are trying to control this.

Can the Deputy mention some of them? He does not know what he is talking about.

I know what I am talking about and everyone here knows what I am talking about.

The Parliamentary Secretary and the Minister both hinted at something. The Minister gave a figure but he had to back down afterwards.

Let the Minister in. It is all there.

He has given us promises.

The Minister will deal with all this. No Government like to introduce legislation which is unpopular. The Minister has already said that this legislation can be withdrawn at any time that the trade union congress come together with the employers and come to responsible agreements.

The Minister has not said any such thing.

He has. You can ask him about it when he is replying.

He said provided the agreements are for under 6 per cent.

The Minister did not say that.

He did. He said that if the trade unions and the employers can come together and work out a realistic agreement we will not need to use this Bill.

They are coming together.

We do not intend to withdraw this Bill in the hope that they will. We want to have this legislation.

It will be withdrawn if they do.

We will not have to operate it if they do. This Bill will be passed but the effects of it will not be operated if the trade unions and the employers get together and work out an agreement of a responsible nature. A government can only set guidelines, as has been said many times. Spokesmen for the Government over the years have been exhorting the people to show restraint in their wage demands.

Why do the Government not show restraint?

They are showing restraint.

The Deputy can see if he bothers to look around him.

They are increasing expenditure by 20 per cent this year.

I have noticed nothing but antagonism towards the employers and the Government by members of the Labour Party, particularly in their contributions in this debate.

This is quite false. I do not remember any of them attacking the employers.

It is quite true. They have made personal attacks on members of the Government. They have been antagonistic about this Bill. I feel they do not have the interests of the workers at heart. They are trying to make political capital out of the workers. The fact that this legislation is before the House is already having an effect on the kind of wage demands which are being put in. I have seen no evidence of any of those absurd demands being put in since this Bill came before the House. This Bill has done a good thing by making the people aware of and concerned about the dangers and the possibility of inflation and pricing ourselves out of markets. If we price ourselves out of world markets unemployment will follow. Everyone in the country has a vested interest in this country continuing as a going concern. They have young families to bring up, to see that they are educated, to clothe and to feed. They have their cars to pay for. People want security more than anything else. The people can forgive a Government anything but losing them their jobs. If people lose their jobs as a result of irresponsible government that Government will be thrown into Opposition just as those members of former Coalition Governments have been thrown into and kept in Opposition.

We have been abused about the turnover tax and how it caused the increase in the cost of living. This tax was introduced in 1963 and we have been in office since that time. We have come through a number of elections. The people have still returned us. I am well aware that people do not like paying taxes but they will pay them willingly rather than not have any money to pay those taxes, in other words, they have lost their jobs and have to go on the emigrant ships. If you can keep your people in employment you are doing a good job in government. The Labour Government in England lost the last election because there was higher unemployment in that country at that time than at any time in the previous 30 years.

Until the Conservatives came.

It does not make any difference. When the Labour Party get elected they introduce more conservative policies than a Conservative Government. They tried it and they did not get away with it simply because they were looked on as traitors by the trade union movement whom they had all the time supported whilst they were in Opposition. The Opposition on one hand say that this Bill is not necessary, that there is no serious inflation which would warrant legislation like this and, on the other hand, they say that there is such a situation but that this action is being taken too late. Does this mean that in fact they agree this action should be taken?

Inflation is due to excessive Government expenditure.

Inflation is due unfortunately — I hate to say this — to irresponsibility amongst some of the leaders of the trade unions.

That is right, attack the workers.

That is nonsense. Government expenditure has caused it all.

There are so many trade unions. There are away over 100 trade unions and if they would only get together and work together it would be so much simpler to work out an amenable solution to the problem of wage demands. They are all competing with one another at the expense of the unfortunate worker. This Bill reflects very clearly the failure of the trade unions and the employers to get together and particularly reflects the failure of the trade union leadership to be realistic.

Fianna Fáil have never been afraid of the ballot box. We have always taken whatever steps were necessary to protect people's employment, and we shall continue to do that as long as we have the numbers to carry out the job for which we were elected. People elected Fianna Fáil at the last election simply because when it came to the time for voting they asked themselves: under whom is our employment more likely to continue, under a Fianna Fáil government, under a Labour government, under a Fine Gael government or under a Coalition government? They did not know what they were voting for with the other groups, and they still do not know what they would be voting for — whether it would be a Coalition government, a Fine Gael government, or a Labour government.

They will not vote for Fianna Fáil anyway.

They are very confused. I do not know whether Deputy Bruton is a coalitionist or a Fine Gael supporter. I have not counted his head yet.

I have not got two heads facing different ways like the Deputy's Government.

We have not got two heads facing different ways. We know exactly the way we are going.

They had three heads and one has fallen off.

The Deputy has not been here long enough to realise that the people are not easily fooled. The fact that we have been here so long in government is evidence of this. This Bill protects those people who live on fixed incomes. Those are the hardest hit sector of any community. We have been accused of having lowered the value of the old age pensioner's money and been told that the old age pensioner is worse off now than he was ten years ago. This is not the case. Every year under successive Fianna Fáil Governments the lot of the old age pensioner has been improved, not nearly as much as we would like to improve it or as everyone in the House would like, but nevertheless the improvement has always been in excess of the increase in the cost of living in that year. This has been borne out in successive elections.

Would the Deputy tell us what Fianna Fáil have done for the big families?

We have increased children's allowances very substantially and this benefits big families.

The rates are still only a quarter of the size of those in most countries in Western Europe.

The Deputy is throwing figures at me which I have not studied. I do not know whether the Deputy has or not, but I am satisfied from looking around — and then I have travelled a little too — that the plight of the old age pensioner in this country is much better than in most other countries in which I have been. In this country we do not have anything like the extremes of poverty that exist in countries much wealthier than ours. This country has the greatest distribution of its wealth amongst the people of probably any country.

Would the Deputy name a few?

Yes. I would say that the extremes of poverty just across the water in England are greater than here. In Glasgow, Birmingham and other cities in Britain poverty is tremendous.

Let us take Northern Ireland.

The Deputy wants to localise it. I do not regard Northern Ireland as another country, as the Deputy seems to. In any case the point I am making — and I stand by it, and the Deputy knows what I am saying is true——

Quite incorrect.

——is that the extremes of poverty in this country are nothing in comparison with those of countries wealthier than this.

The only country the Deputy has mentioned is Britain and he is quite wrong.

In America, which is a country with a great social conscience, there are greater extremes of poverty than we see here. According to the United Nations the people of this country have the highest intake of calories of any country in Europe.

In what form?

It does not matter what form.

Of course it does.

It means people are better fed, much better than Deputy Bruton would indicate from his interruption. One of the complaints is that the sales of bread have fallen very considerably in the last few years. This indicates that people are eating more meat, fish and various other dishes. One has only to look at the many stores, supermarkets and shops. People are not living on bread and potatoes any more. Look at the range of goods in these stores. These goods would not be in the stores if the people did not have the money to buy them. No businessman buys goods just to put in a shop window, particularly perishable goods. Go to any supermarket on a Saturday afternoon, or go down to Ballymun and see the third largest supermarket in Europe crammed with people ordering good food to eat over the weekend and during the week. Therefore it is no use for the Opposition to scream about poverty. We are not a poverty-stricken country. We are one of the few creditor nations in Europe, and that was not so after the last Coalition left office in 1957 when all our external assets——

So Fianna Fáil borrowed us into prosperity?

All our external assets — the Deputy can check on this if he wishes — had been spent. We did not have a bean. That is not the position today. We are one of the few creditor nations in Europe. We have managed our affairs pretty well and intend to continue to do so even if it means introducing unpopular measures. As I have said, and as my whole speech underlines, this Bill is to protect employment and that is Fianna Fáil's main policy, to protect our people's employment and therefore, to protect people like old age pensioners, the widows and the orphans, to whom reference is so often made here and for whom we gather taxes in order to give them their fair share. The Opposition have criticised us. After all it is the Opposition's job to criticise, but they have not suggested anything.

We suggested an incomes policy in 1965, long before Fianna Fáil ever dreamed of it.

I do not know if Deputy Bruton has spoken yet, but if he has not when he does speak I should like him to explain what he means by an incomes policy. This Bill is an incomes policy.

Low incomes.

Low incomes are better than no incomes any day of the week and they are not so low anyway.

In his speech the Minister said that the Bill is not aimed at cutting back workers' living standards; it is rather aimed at safeguarding their existing living standards...

This is what I have been endeavouring to say. The Government have made exhortations for claims for increases to be realistic. The Minister in his speech went on to say:

The Government had repeatedly made it clear that the level of the 12th round increases which followed the maintenance settlement was grossly excessive and bound to worsen the economy's competitive position and to affect adversely both employment and economic growth.

The people know that Fianna Fáil have their interests at heart. As long as they are able to collect their pay packets each week everything is all right. We need to increase production. If workers are able to increase production they can expect wage increases. Most people realise that unless we can produce goods at a cheaper price than our competitors abroad we will not stay in business but this message has to be driven home at local level. Trade unions should talk to their workers along these lines: "Look, we as a trade union can only do so much, you have to play your part and produce the goods. If you produce the goods we will see to it that you get your fair whack of the profits. "I have said before that no one would be happier than me to see every worker able to afford two cars and a Continental holiday every year if he so wished because then I would know the country was doing well. Certainly, it has the potential to do well. This party have never lost faith in the people. We shall continue to have faith in the people. We have achieved too much to lose it by default. We have no intention of allowing pecple to be led into believing that they are not getting a fair deal. We have to instil into people the ambition to work for better things.

From the moment post-primary education was available to all who wished to avail of it, the face of this country began to change. We shall receive the benefit of this scheme in a very short time now because many of the people who have received post-primary education under the scheme will soon be able to play their part in building an Ireland more prosperous than ever. The sooner people realise that by making a concerted effort we shall make more progress and a better standard of living will be available for everyone, the better. This is the ideal to aim for. I emphasise the word "ideal". We want to motivate our young people into building a better Ireland for all our people, always maintaining that those who are least well off will get a greater share of the national cake. We have done this very well up till now and we shall continue to do so.

I have been present at almost every sitting of the Dáil since my election to this House one-and-a half years ago and during that time a large proportion of the debates have been about the problems which have arisen as a result either of inaction or ineptitude on the part of the present Government. The net result of this is that the country has got itself into probably the greatest difficulties it has faced in the 50 years of its existence as an independent State.

In his opening statement the Minister attempted to put the blame for the problems we are now facing fairly and squarely on the shoulders of the workers. This attempt will not succeed because speaker after speaker has reminded the Minister for Finance and the Government that the present problems were created by the present Government.

When the Tánaiste addressed this House on this Bill he pointed out that most European countries had to face serious inflationary problems at one time or another. He cited as examples countries like Sweden, Denmark, Britain and Germany. He argued that the problems those countries faced at varying times were rooted in inflation but he did not put forward the cause of the inflation.

The problem of inflation in this country and in those countries stem from completely different sources. I am sure my learned friend, Deputy O'Donovan, who has already spoken on this Bill has pointed out the reason for inflation in this country. The inflationary causes in the countries mentioned by the Tánaiste were brought about primarily by full employment. Full employment had prevailed in those countries for many years. The demands on the resources of those countries had been very strong during that period. The competition for the labour force was much greater and so a situation developed in which the inducement of higher wages was used to compete for workers for the many jobs available. The result was money incomes rose faster than the volume of production. As a result of that these countries had to face inflationary problems. Indeed, Britain is still facing that problem.

The same position has never existed here. The pattern has been too few jobs for the work force available. Unemployment has never been below a figure of 6 per cent and it has often, unfortunately, been as high as 10 per cent. Our present inflationary problems can be clearly traced to the Government's handling of our economy, particularly during the last two years, and the present crisis in which we find ourselves was predicted time and again by speaker after speaker on these benches in the Budget debate. The increase in the turnover tax from 2½ per cent to 5 per cent-an increase of 100 per cent — gave rise to a spate of price increases, increases which have gone on unchecked in the last six months. It was argued that that increase of 100 per cent in turnover tax was required to balance the Budget. When the turnover tax was introduced in the early sixties it was hotly debated in this House and the 100 per cent increase recently was just as hotly debated: on both occasions it was pointed out that this type of taxation leads to inflation because of increasing prices.

The Government, having the benefit of hindsight after the introduction of the turnover tax, chose to ignore the problems which resulted and balanced the Budget by using the same device again this year. In an effort to remove the blame for what has happened the Minister for Finance has now introduced this Prices and Incomes Bill. It is a poor measure. It makes little or no attempt to lay down the groundwork for a proper prices and incomes policy. In fact, there is no suggestion of laying down any groundwork necessary for an incomes policy. Because of that lack there can be no hope of success. There has not even been a separate section set up in the Department of Industry and Commerce, or anywhere else, to deal with incomes.

The problem of inflation is now being blamed on the workers. The workers, in the process of phased agreements, have seen increases in wages eaten away long before the end of the phased agreement on, for example, the 12th round. Workers who agreed to increases two years ago, increases which seemed reasonable at the time, found their wages had fallen far short of the increases in prices which occurred during the same period.

Many trade unionists were not in favour of phased agreements at the outset but these were, in fact, the basis on which the Government could have worked towards a proper prices and incomes policy. The experience has been that, although wages can be controlled, there has been little effort by the Government, particularly during the last two years, to control prices. The present measure pays lip-service to controlling prices but nothing definite is spelled out in the Bill or in the Minister's speech. There is no indication as to what steps will be taken so that a better watch can be kept on the movement of prices. In certain areas it is possible to note increases in prices. That can be done in the case of ordinary consumer goods. It is not so easy in other areas. In these areas prices have been rising and nothing can be done, apparently, to curb these increases. I refer to such items as clothes, coal, firing and so on. What attempt has been made in the past year to control prices of these commodities? What attempt will be made next year to keep prices down? I suggest it is impossible to exercise surveillance on these commodities. How can the price of shoes be noted from week to week? These items are bought once in a year. A pair of shoes may be priced at 69s 11d this month and next month the same shoes may be 80s. Nobody will be aware of that increase. A check cannot be kept on that kind of commodity. It is hardly likely the buyer will be aware of the increase in price and will not, therefore, be in a position to give this information to whatever section of the Department of Industry and Commerce will be exercising surveillance on such prices.

I should like to mention the condition of the trade union movement as a result of this measure. As a member of a trade union and a part-time branch secretary of the largest union in the country, I am well aware of the indignation felt by fellow-workers as a result of this Bill. The trade unions were aware that the ICTU had been negotiating a 13th round agreement with the employers. That conference had been in session for a number of months and it was a shock to the workers to hear that it had been terminated abruptly by the chairman because he considered that the differences in the proposals of the unions and those of the employers were too great. The proposal put forward by the trade unions was to act as a bridge in an effort to achieve a real growth of 5 or 6 per cent in wage increases. However, this was merely a proposal and was negotiable. In dealing with employers trade unions know and expect that negotiations will be conducted on the proposals they put forward. That has always been the case and I hope that in the future it will continue to be so.

It is obvious that the Government were using the employer/labour conference as a lever to introduce this Bill. With the failure of the conference the Bill was introduced almost immediately. By interfering with free collective bargaining the Government have created a situation whereby industrial relations will deteriorate in the future. As a result of their treatment by the Government, when workers next approach the negotiating table they will look for the largest possible allowance in the shortest period.

The termination of the employer/ labour conference and the introduction of the Bill mean the end of phased agreements for some time to come. In the past four years phased agreements were negotiated. They gave a breathing space to employers to make arrangements in future budgets to meet wage increases and allowed them an opportunity to rationalise their production so that they could absorb wage increases.

The lack of trust which workers will have in any future phased agreements is one of the most disturbing aspects of the matter. Negotiations between workers and management must be free. The gun, in the form of legislative sanctions against workers, cannot be held to the heads of negotiators when they seek to work out a voluntary solution to pay increases. This Bill has temporarily halted the process of free negotiations and I hope the Minister will not try to enforce the sanctions after the end of 1971. He has changed his mind before about the terms of the Bill and there is every likelihood that he could do that again. It would be a pity if the guarantees he gives now about the termination date were not honoured. I hope there will be no attempt to prolong any of the measures after the end of 1971.

The Government have attempted to implement a dividend freeze but in the Labour Party we are sceptical about this effort. In the journal Business and Finance a measure of scepticism about the feasibility of a dividend freeze has been expressed. In the issue dated 23rd October, 1970, it is stated:

As a means of keeping money out of the consumer end of the economy the dividend freeze is pathetic, for the one or two points which most Irish companies would add to their distribution to ordinary shareholders if the trading results warranted it would amount to very little in the national context.

The move by the Minister was, of course, taken to show that he was treating all sections of the community in a similar fashion and not penalising anyone, i.e. the worker.

There are many loopholes open to firms by which they may distribute dividends. They can withhold them until the end of the freeze and distribute them in the following year. This loophole is not open to workers who are paid on a weekly basis. Everything they will lose in the coming year will be lost forever.

It is for this reason that many people feel the inclusion of the dividend freeze is, as the journal Business and Finance suggests, just a sop to the workers. It suggests that the Government are treating all sections of the community equally. In the matter of the freeze on rents, no suggestion is made in the Bill as to whether the Government intend to clamp down on the rents of new office blocks. No one knows what yardstick is used to measure at what rents office space should be rented in the coming year, so that new office buildings which will come on the market may be rented at whatever figure their owners care to charge for them, depending on demand for space at that time.

The decision of the Minister for Finance to relent on the clamp-down on the last phase of the 12th round is very welcome to all sections of the working classes. If the Minister had gone ahead with that section of the pay freeze, I doubt if he could have put any part of this Bill into effect. The outcry from every section of the community would have been such that the Minister would have been forced to alter the Bill.

When the public services increase was negotiated by members of the Government and the trade union movement it was hailed by the public as a great break-through in negotiations. It was a welcome break-through because we had seen in the past that the poorer sections of the working classes, and particularly the road workers and the forestry workers, were always the last to receive increases. They usually received the smallest increases: the increases were given on a percentage basis and the smaller the wages the smaller the increase. The percentage system operated to give the lower-paid worker less than any other section of the community.

The 12th round settlement for the public services gave a substantially higher increase to the lower-paid workers than they had got in the past. It would be manifestly unfair to that section of the community if the Minister for Finance had not come to his senses and changed the practice. It would have been unfair if the Minister had included the last phase of the public services increase in the increases which were suggested as maximum increases during 1971.

In giving the public services increase under the 12th round many local authority managers were able to nullify part of that increase by removing medical cards from a number of road-workers and lorry-drivers working for them. Medical cards were removed from many family men who were earning about £17 per week and, in some cases less than that. This meant in many cases that there was continual and recurring outlay on drugs and hospitalisation which had to be paid for out of weekly earnings. In many cases these payments negatived the increase.

I know one sad case with which I had to deal. This was a man who worked in a pumping station in County Wicklow for seven days a week for £17 10s gross. His medical card was taken away from him when he received an increase under the 12th round. This man has a wife and nine children. The loss of the medical card was a serious blow to him and seriously affected his income. This is only one case which I had to deal with. There have been many such cases in my constituency. In many cases the first phase of the 12th round agreement was to some degree negatived by such actions.

In conclusion, I should like to say that if an incomes and prices policy is to be effective it must deal with blatant inequality in living standards at its source. I can find no evidence of an attempt in this Bill to deal with the inequality which exists in this country at the present time. The Bill itself has been described by a number of speakers as a pay-freeze or low wages bill. In order to have a proper prices and incomes policy there must be a great deal of extra work by the Government in setting up bodies to ensure proper surveillance of all aspects of price increases and to yet all types of wage increases. This is very necessary. There has been no attempt in this Bill to do this.

The measure will obviously be passed by this House because of the numbers on the Government benches. I feel that the Bill will never be acceptable to the rank and file of the workers in this country. This type of legislation should be forgotten by the present Government. They should get down to the real problems which confront the country. I hope that they will come to terms with the problem in the coming year, in co-operation with the trade union movement and the employers, and that they will all work out some sort of rational policy from which workers will benefit considerably in real increases in their wages in the years ahead.

I wish to refer to the context of the Bill itself, first. Take sections 2 and 3. How effective will the provisions here be in regard to people in salaried employment — people in insurance companies, people in firms of solicitors and people in employment like that? It is very difficult to disguise a basic increase in wages for a labourer or a man in a fixed and clearly defined category; but consider, for instance, the position of a newly qualified solicitor. Before he was qualified, he could have been earning little or nothing as an apprentice. He would take a big jump in earnings immediately he was qualified. Maybe a month later, on the basis that he had now considerable experience as a solicitor, he could get what could be termed promotion. His category could change again, a few months later. On each of these occasions he could receive an increase in his salary which would have no relation to the norms referred to by the Minister because it would not be an increase in basic remuneration but consequent on promotion. I do not think this Bill meets this possible danger, if one calls it a danger, to the concept behind the Bill — a concept, anyway which I do not consider very good.

Sections 11 and 12 cover rents and the like. Under the Landlord and Tenant Act, 1931, where a lease expires which is covered by the Act the tenant is entitled to have a new rent fixed and to renew his lease at a certain figure. Leases may fall due for renewal under the Landlord and Tenant Act in the period while the control of increases in rent referred to in this measure are effective. What will happen to these rents which are fixed at a specific rate and controlled by the Act during the period of operation of the Act? Will they have to remain at that level for the remaining period of 21 years during which the leases will be effective? The effect would be that you would have the Landlord and Tenant Act covering a period of 21 years and giving the people entitlement to have a lease renewal. If it is renewed during the period of the effectiveness of this measure, it would have to be renewed at a certain figure but that figure, fixed during the effectiveness of this measure, will be binding not just for the period of the measure but for the period of 21 years as under the Landlord and Tenant Act, 1931, or the whole period of the lease, anyway.

It is a good idea that excessive increases in rent should not take place. However, this is a roundabout way of achieving control of increases in rent. It may prove a rather strange and irrational way. If we are going to control increases in rent, in leases which may fall due in the next year during the effectiveness of this measure, we should do so specifically and not sideways, through this measure. It is possible that it could be got around in the drafting of the agreement. While I support the idea of minimising increases in rents and while I consider that some people are paying extortionate rent, nevertheless, if we are going to control increases in rents we should do so specifically and on the basis of a long term policy and not in this offhand fashion incorporated in legislation in which rents play only an incidental part.

The most disturbing section in this Bill is section 22 (1) which is to the effect that if, in any respect, any difficulty arises in bringing into operation or in giving full effect to any provisions of this Bill, when enacted, the Minister for Finance may by order do anything which appears to be necessary or expedient for bringing that provision into operation and giving full effect thereto. Could we just think about this? The result will be legislation by order which is a by-passing of this House. The Minister may do anything — anything — which appears to be necessary or expedient. What sort of legislation is that? Are we going to confer freedom on a Minister to do anything which appears necessary or expedient without it having to come before this House? That is not legislation. What is the point in having a Parliament and a requirement that a matter should be brought before this House and debated and that legislation be approved by this House, if we confer power on a Minister to take action without coming to this House?

One cannot discuss this Bill without discussing the Government's economic policy over the past five or six years. It is clear that this has been an erratic and politically-motivated policy. There has been no consistency. The Government have not even been basically honest with the people in regard to economic policy. I know there are matters which have been pointed out so often from this side of the House that the people are practically deaf to what we have to say, but they are nonetheless true despite how often they are repeated.

A particular instance of this is what happened in relation to the economic crisis that was heralded on television by Deputy Haughey and which within months had disappeared in a haze of glorious prosperity when the Government were facing an election. We have an economic crisis one month and "we never had it so good" two months later when the Government want to win an election. If the Government do things like that, they can hardly expect other people to be disciplined, or expect them to accept restraints, or to be honest in accepting their responsibilities as members of a total community and not just individuals seeking increases for themselves.

If the Government cannot tell the basic truth about the economy, and have to use the economy as a means of attaining political power for themselves, and have to make statements so contradictory and so blatantly contradictory as the statement made by Deputy Haughey one month and effectively taken back two or three months later when an election was due, what can they expect from the people? If the Government are indisciplined in what they do, they can hardly act as leaders in asking people to accept discipline.

It is clear also that there has been a grave lack of foresight on the part of the Government. We need only look at the editorial in Scéala Éireann, the Irish Press, of 17th October, 1970, to read that perhaps, indeed, the Government delayed too long and that a more opportune time would have been 18 months ago. It is a masterly understatement on the part of the Irish Press, referring to the approach of the Government to our economic problem to say that perhaps they delayed too long. They delayed for much longer than even the Irish Press concedes that they delayed.

However, there were members of the Government who were issuing warnings on this subject. We had the Tánaiste, Deputy Childers, being reported in the Irish Times practically every week bemoaning the irresponsibility of people who were looking for increased incomes. Evidently the Tánaiste has no influence with the Government because, if he had, presumably he would have done something to back up his persistent exhortations. In fact, nothing was done.

Another contributing factor to our economic problems was the great increase in Government expenditure. I know that one is getting on to very difficult political ground when one talks about restricting the increase in Government expenditure. I am not qualified to say and I will not attempt to say where cuts should be made. I have not made a sufficiently comprehensive study of all the facets of Government expenditure to make any such assessment. As was pointed out in an article in Léargas, October, 1970, to which my colleague, Deputy Esmonde, referred, there is a need for a movement away from cost benefit analysis in Government expenditure to cost effectiveness analysis. Possibly, if we had more cost effectiveness analysis of Government expenditure we might find that there are certain schemes which are not doing what they are supposed to be doing and not meeting the needs which they are supposed to be meeting.

It is clear that over a long period schemes are introduced to meet a need which is pressing and genuine at that particular time but due to lethargy and inertia those schemes remain in existence long after the need which they were originally and validly introduced to serve has disappeared. This is possibly the case with many measures of Government intervention in our economy which are causing very great expenditure which is borne by the taxpayer. There always is and always will be a vested interest of some description to call out loudly for the retention of any scheme, no matter how archaic. There will always be somebody benefiting from it who will be able to put forward a case to have it kept in existence. There will always be votes to be lost by cutting out any scheme, no matter how archaic.

If there are so many could the Deputy not mention even one tiny one?

I said I am not in a position to do so. I pointed out that a proper cost effectiveness analysis of all Government expenditure should be carried out. In the absence of such an analysis, which I certainly as an individual Deputy am not in a position to carry out but which the Government are in a position to carry out, it is impossible for me to specify the schemes. I would point out that there is a need to have this analysis of Government expenditure because the steady increase in Government expenditure, which has been well in excess of the increase in expenditure in other sections of the community, has obviously been a major contributing factor to the inflationary situation in which we find ourselves at present.

I should also like to mention what our concept in the Fine Gael Party is of an incomes policy. I personally am not by any means the best qualified member of the party to talk about this. I have always had and still have a sort of pathological fear of economics and economic concepts. I do not understand many of them. Taking it in more homely terms, we need to have a Government which can provide leadership, a Government which can have the respect of all sections of the community when they ask them to accept particular restraints. Under that heading the Government must fall down. They cannot ask with credibility for restraint on the part of other sections of the community.

They are clearly convicted now and were convicted before of telling untruths and half truths. I do not propose to go into the current major political debate arising from the recent arms trial. That is not relevant here except to the extent that it is clear from it that we have a Government which can come in here and without any shame tell untruths to the House. If the Government tell untruths in this House they can hardly expect to have the respect of the people they ask to accept restraints and to whom they preach about responsibility in the incomes sphere. What could be more irresponsible than a Government who tell lies to the Dáil?

There is need for greater co-operation among all sections of the community to achieve norms of income increases which will prevent the inflationary spiral from continuing. A much more intensive educational process could reach all sections of the community. It is not enough for the Government merely to issue the occasional script to the newspapers, as the Tánaiste was doing. This is not really educating; this is not really getting down to the people who really make the decisions in the incomes sphere. The people who make the decisions in the incomes sphere are the workers on the shop floor, the farmers on the farms. Many of them do not have the time to read abstruse arguments from the Tánaiste or anybody else. Clearly, the Government have not gone into the market place to persuade these people in terms they will understand of the need for action to curb inflation.

There is a need for a series of councils, not just one national prices and incomes council, but for similar councils to operate at provincial or county level as well, affiliated to a national prices and incomes council. These local councils would relate the policy being laid down at national level to sectors of industry operating in the particular counties concerned. It is only by a massive effort of institutional organisation, and by consultation between all sections of the community that the message can be got across to the people who really matter. We need economic councils which will have a responsibility for applying a commonly agreed prices and incomes policy at local level and at county level. These should be a duplication of similar councils which would be in operation at national level. These councils would obviously have to incorporate not just employers and labour, as was the case with the recent employer labour conference which was abortive; they must include the farming community, the people who are not represented by trade unions, representatives of the self-employed; they must be comprehensive.

While the Government are attempting in this legislation to be comprehensive, none of their efforts to devise an incomes policy on a voluntary basis was truly comprehensive. It is very important that whatever economic wisdom is going around should not be enunciated solely in the form of rather high-flown scripts issued to the newspapers; it must be translated into terms which can be understood and sold in a vigorous way to the people on the shop floor and on the farm. This can only be done by a necessarily more complex organisation going right down to local level which will have the effect of applying whatever incomes policy is agreed and also changing that policy through making suggestions upwards to the national body.

I should like to get some information on how the Government, who must have known about the dangers of inflation earlier could, in the earlier part of this year introduce a Budget which could not be described as anything but highly inflationary, a Budget which increased the cost of living immediately and directly through increasing turnover tax. It is difficult to imagine anything which could have been more calculated to aggravate people into making demands for large increases which the economy could not stand. The Government could not have been more effective in bringing about such demands than they were by introducing this Budget to increase turnover tax to 5 per cent. What sort of economic thinking was behind this Budget? Was it something that was dreamed up suddenly in a panic because the Minister for Finance was somehow or other indisposed? Was it a Budget which had been thought out carefully in advance or was it a panic measure devised in a few hours to fill a gap? If the latter is the case, it indicates something rather serious about the way in which the Government conduct their affairs.

I should like to get some information about the long-term plans of the Government, so far as the Government will be long term, which is highly doubtful. What do the Government intend to happen when this Bill lapses? Will we go back to the old ways which failed, or have they got some new concept of how they will handle our economic problems? Are they just going to lapse back to what they have been doing, the economic policy guided solely by political expediency, or have they got something genuine in mind to devise a long-term voluntary incomes policy which will work? In this context I should like to draw the attention of the House to what has happened in relation to fighting inflation in Finland. It is fair to say that Finland and this country have many similarities.

Including inflation, the Deputy admits?

I am coming to that.

The Deputy started with that.

Yes. They are fighting inflation and we are running away from it.

When the Deputy says "we" he means Fine Gael, of course?

No, I am speaking collectively. I am speaking of us as a nation, which unfortunately is led by a Fianna Fáil Government at present.

And for quite some time past.

Past, but perhaps not future.

We will see.

Yes, you will see.

In relation to Finland I should like to draw the attention of the House to an article in The Times of London of Friday, October 2nd, 1970, under the heading “How the Finns are fighting inflation.” It is an article by a man named Anthony Rowley and it says that the outcome of the policy measures adopted in Finland has been that the rate of inflation, which averaged 5 per cent for four years, from 1964 to 1968, and reached 8.4 per cent in 1968, was kept down to 2.4 per cent last year. It also says that, while the unions were not altogether happy with the wage restraint in Finland, they were genuinely consoled by the fact that whereas real earnings in industry increased by 6.3 per cent during 1968-69 price increases were kept down to 2.3 per cent, compared with 5 per cent for the OECD countries as a whole, and are expected to rise by no more than 3 per cent this year. I am frankly not qualified to pass judgment on what the Finns have done, but——

What did they do?

I will tell the Parliamentary Secretary in a few moments.

We got the end result. We will now get what brought about that end result, I presume.

Who is making this speech?

Some fellow called Rowley.

I shall quote from this article:

Compared to the experiments in central control of the economy that are entering a further phase in Finland, Britain's attempts so far at a prices and incomes policy look like the mildest and most limited exercise in persuasion. Yet there are certain parallels which render the Finnish policy interesting for Britain.

First there is the fact that the Finmark was devalued in October, 1967, around the time that sterling was devalued. Finland's devaluation of 24 per cent was some 10 per cent greater than Britain's, but the consequent problems of making the most of devaluation—

Is the Deputy suggesting this as one of the methods that should be adopted by us?

I am not suggesting anything. I am reading what this man wrote in The Times of London of 2nd October, 1970. This is a point worth noting here in relation to devaluation. We have always followed the British in regard to the amount by which we devalued our currency and so far as I know, the Government are almost entirely tied to the concept of following Britain in regard to devaluation of currency.

Not at all. A provision was made in one of the recent Finance Acts whereby we no longer follow Britain in this regard.

But we did follow them.

Deputy Bruton is saying that we must follow them. If we follow them, it is of our own accord.

The Government do not have the spark of originality that is evident in the Finnish economic policy. I quote further from the article:

Unlike Britain, however, Finland adopted stabilising measures such as an export-levy scheme, an anti-cyclical reserve fund acting direct on industry, and a certain reorganisation of the money markets, as well as a strict price freeze and wages control tied to productivity increases. The outcome has been that inflation in Finland, which averaged 5 per cent for four years and reached 8.4 per cent in 1968, was kept down to 2.4 per cent last year. Meanwhile, the Finmark, a weak currency four years ago, is now one of the "world's strongest currencies", according to Dr. Klaus Warris, former Governor of the Bank of Finland and Finnish representative to the International Monetary Fund. Finland's rate of economic growth is, at 7 per cent, considerably greater than the average for western Europe.

The Finns were able to do that although they are a small nation overshadowed by Russia and other countries in a similar way to which we, too, are overshadowed. The Finnish population is similar to ours. When Britain devalued her currency and when general rounds of devaluation took place, they adopted positive measures to derive some benefit from the situation, whereas we did nothing.

I am not particularly tied to the factors mentioned in this article but they should be investigated. In view of the success that the Finns had in this field, I wonder whether the Government have investigated what the Finns have been doing. There is another point worth noting and it is this point which distinguishes the Finnish situation from ours. I quote:

The fact that the Helsinki Government was not able to impose its prices and incomes and stabilization policies without the "voluntary" co-operation of business and industry and the labour movement gives them a more general relevance.

They were able to do this on a voluntary basis which, clearly, this Government are not able to do. I quote further from the article:

An account of what was involved has been set out by Dr. Warris in a document published by the Bank of Finland.

There is then a quotation from what he said and it is as follows:

"When we devalued the Finmark in 1967, trade unions had to be convinced a restrictive wage policy was necessary. We became successful in coping with inflation problems. We were able to increase our exports and get a pretty good equilibrium in our foreign trade, and also gradually to get a nice expansion in the national economy. Last year the expansion was in real terms about 8 per cent."

On the trade unions, Dr. Warris said: " They were facing two alternatives: either a restrictive wage policy or a continuous wage and price spiral with much unrest in the labour market. The labour movement was represented in the Government; it had simultaneously a political responsibility and a responsibility to labour."

That is very important. It is clear that the present Government have not the confidence of the labour movement and it is difficult to imagine them having the real support of the labour movement. However, that is not the only thing. To continue with the quotation:

"The employers were very cooperative in attaining our moderate policy. The policy was determined largely by parties outside the Government."

This was not so in our case. In the case of the Finns, this was something devised by the people themselves and the Government were able to convince them effectively of the necessity for it by their own constant approach to public finance whereas our Government have failed in this field. The Finns were able to effect a situation whereby the people themselves were able to bring into effect an incomes policy without having the heavy hand of the Government fall on them as has been the case here in the form of the legislation put before us. I quote further from the article:

The Government adopted the lines put out jointly by employers and by employee organisations, which also demanded discipline in fiscal policies of the Government. It was not an easy thing for politicians who were used to acting independently. I feel almost everybody is happy about the results now.

The idea of anybody demanding fiscal responsibility from this Government is unthinkable at the present time. The Government do not have the concept that they must be responsible in the same way as are the people to whom they are preaching. There are one or two points in the article in relation to fiscal policy that are worth mentioning. I quote:

Fiscal policy was also connected with the stabilization policy. A limit was imposed on the increase in government expenditure and this has been held.

There is another point and this one possibly deserves some elucidation but I am not qualified to give such elucidation. I quote:

One of the later — and perhaps most interesting — elements of the post-devaluation policy, and one which was not adopted until the autumn of 1969, involved the introduction of a counter-cyclical reserve system in Finland. As the result of negotiations, the Finnish Council of State, the Federation of Finnish Industry, and the Central Association of Finnish Wood-working Industries signed a document binding them to create by the beginning of 1971 counter-cyclical reserves amounting to at least 400m. Finmarks (£40m.). These will be partly in the form of counter-cyclical deposits with the Bank of Finland made by companies and partly as transfers to investment funds.

The counter-cyclical deposits can be deducted from the firm's income in state and municipal taxation in the year in which it is made, and the Bank of Finland pays a 6 per cent tax-free interest rate on the deposit. Deposits are scheduled to be repaid in three equal instalments (at which time the money becomes liable to taxation) at the end of 1972, 1973 and 1974.

The Council of State may decide, however, that counter-cyclical deposits can be drawn earlier if increased fixed investment is believed desirable in order to stimulate the economy.

It is important that the points raised in general in this article and that the economic experience of the Finnish Government which is covered partly in this OECD survey that I have here, should be examined carefully by the Government to see if there is anything to be learned from them. Certainly, if results are any indication, the results in this case have been very good.

I should like to know what is the Minister's approach to the question of the dividend equalisation tax that was proposed originally in an article in The Economist sometime in 1964. It was adopted by Fine Gael in our Just Society policy published in 1965 in which we foresaw many of the difficulties that have now arisen. At that time, well in advance of the prices and incomes situation becoming critical we made some solid and practical proposals to meet the situation. These were mainly based on a comprehensive prices and incomes policy to cover all sections of the community on a voluntary basis but this obviously needed teeth. One of the teeth which Fine Gael proposed was a dividend equalisation tax, which was subsequently accepted by the NIEC in their first report on prices and incomes. In their most recent report, Report No. 27, for some reason or other they have dropped this. They apparently do not believe in a dividend equalisation tax any more. They apparently believed in it in their first approach to the problem. They have dropped it now in what has been described by Deputy Dr. FitzGerald as an NIEC report on incomes and prices which showed backward progress. This dropping of the dividend equalisation tax is probably part of the backward progress to which he referred.

I would like to know why the Government have not adopted this proposal. What is their attitude to it? Do they not see the need for some tax which could be held in abeyance as long as the general overall increases in dividends were within the norms laid down for the economy, but which could be brought into effect if the general increase in dividends as a whole were to exceed the general increases in income which are considered by the Government to be correct.

The dividend equalisation tax would not discourage competitive firms, who were making a lot of money and who wanted to pay handsome dividends and would not discourage people from investing their money in go-ahead firms. This might happen if all dividends were limited to a particular ceiling. As long as the overall increase in dividends was kept within the particular norms laid down by the Government the tax would not be effective at all. This would mean that it would be possible for very high dividends to be paid by one firm as long as low dividends were paid by other less successful firms. Competition for finance would still operate. It would only be when the overall level of dividends exceeded the norms laid down by the Government that the dividend equalisation tax would become effective. I would like to know what the attitude of the Government is to this.

As I said earlier, I do not claim to have any great knowledge of economics or of the methods by which this problem of inflation should be tackled. However, some of the suggestions I have made, although I am not qualified to hold rigid or firm beliefs in this field, should be investigated by the Government. I would particularly ask them to take a look at the experience in Finland and see if something could be learned from that.

The measures which are being debated here, and which have been severely criticised by various speakers, would appear to be absolutely necessary because one would gather from the trend of the speakers opposite that they agree that they are necessary. They are certainly necessary if we are to bring sanity back to our people and to correct the trend which was leading the nation into a dangerous situation. This situation was brought about by the demands of highly organised associations to get the maximum, and, indeed, in many cases to get more out of the pot than was in it.

I have never held that the system of agreeing to percentage increases, where wages are concerned, was the correct one. There is a differentiation in the various scales of wages in the public service and indeed in that of our lowest paid workers. The ordinary road-worker or the ordinary labourer needs as much to run his household as the civil servant and whatever increase the lower paid man gets should be the measure of the increase the highest paid man gets. I do not believe it was ever intended that we should give our public servants double, treble and in many cases 20 times, the increase which some of our poorer people have got.

Recently we had a demand for the 12th round wage increase for all the workers in Kerry County Council. As far as I remember this increase cost the county over £200,000. I asked for an increase for our home assistance recipients. At a Kerry County Council meeting we passed the ignoble sum of £12,000 to help those poor people. I asked for an increase of a £1 a week, which would come to about £4,000, to be guaranteed before the other increase was passed. This happened about seven or eight weeks ago but the poorer sections of our people have not yet got their increase. Our executive staff are still examining the position, trying to find out how many people there are and how much would be needed to meet this demand.

There are too many people nowadays trying to get more than they are entitled to. We have still a long way to go to build up this nation of ours, to enable us to provide full employment for everybody and to give the maximum to the weaker sections. It is the weaker sections who have spent their lives trying to build up this nation. They had very frugal means by which to educate their children and to develop their small holdings and now they are left with very little to live on. I suppose it is natural that top organisations have to get the maximum and somebody has to go without. This seems to be the system that prevails all the time.

It is unfortunate that the demands of organisations for the maximum can bring about this situation whereby the rights of other people are ignored. I have heard some of the speakers opposite, particularly Deputy Bruton, suggesting that the position that obtains in Finland should be examined in relation to our own. I suppose we would learn something from them but our position and that of Finland and other countries are not comparable. The number of people in insurable employment in Finland is very high in relation to both the sections of land workers and the people who are not at work. The opposite is the case in this country. We must obtain money to sustain our entire farming population. We must also find money to support our old age pensioners and our home assistance and incapacitated people. The numbers of those in relation to our working population are close to treble those in Finland.

Twenty-six per cent of the population of Finland are in agriculture and forestry.

But what about those industrially employed? A large number of those employed in forestry and even in agriculture are in insurable employment, which is different altogether from our situation.

I do not know. Maybe they are.

They are. I spent two years in Europe, and that is one of the things I learned from the various countries. The one thing that upsets the position here is that we have to subsidise people to an extent to which the Finns engaged in agriculture are not subsidised. They earn very big money in afforestation and work their small holdings as a secondary line of production. They earn big money from forestry products, tree felling and timber manufacture, and all this is under the term "agriculture". In Ireland there is an imbalance in that many workers are earning very good money and other people have to live on a very low plane because of that. In my own area, in Killorglin and all around Killarney, there are young fellows of 17, 18 and 19 years of age earning £25 to £30 a week in a factory. This is more than comparable with many of the industrial areas, certainly the smaller areas, in Europe. How this will be levelled out is anybody's guess. Many Deputies on the far side of the House stated that the last Budget started off this inflationary trend.

Notice taken that 20 Members were nor present; House counted, and 20 Members being present,

I was referring to a suggestion from across the House that the last Budget had an inflationary trend. Budgets are necessary. We cannot raise the money which is so badly needed for further development, for building houses, for giving increases to old age pensioners, for giving all-round increases, except through the Budget. As far as I remember Deputy O'Donovan referred to it. Does he suggest that progress should be brought to a halt and we should not give the necessary increases to old age pensioners and the helpless sections of our community? We have to raise money through Budgets, but I cannot accept that the last Budget had the inflationary trends it is suggested it had. If we are to keep industry moving forward and attain the target of full employment we must find ways and means of continuing to develop this programme. If our overall economic position is to be improved this is the only line of action we can take.

Deputy Bruton was particularly worried about how the Bill would affect solicitors, particularly young ones, who would be entitled to get increases at various stages. I am not worried about solicitors because they are a group of people well able to look after themselves. I do not think they will get lost in the race.

Deputy Bruton made one remark with which I am in complete agreement. He said that the entire co-operation of the people, and I take it this applies to everyone in the House as well, is needed if we are to reach new heights in development and production to enable us to get the maximum amount of what is going. It is this type of co-operation and direction which everyone, particularly the worker, needs. If every Deputy broadcast that message at the crossroads and the different towns he would be doing a good job of work, because the people need that type of advice at the moment.

I should like to draw the Minister's attention to an incident which was cited at a meeting of the Dingle Chamber of Commerce. A trader told the meeting that all traders had been notified by a biscuit manufacturer that a price increase of 3d had been allowed under the price control system operated by the Minister. Almost immediately the manufacturers sent a notice to the merchants concerned to the effect that they could suffer a reduction of 3d. If this kind of thing can happen there is a need for a closer look at price increases before they are granted.

Serious increases are facing coal and oil users. The Government should look once again at the redevelopment of our bogland for the production of more fuel. Coal is supposed to be going up by £2 per ton. With this type of increase in the offing it would be worth the Government's while to redevelop our bogland particularly on the west coast where so much turf could be used. This would improve our balance of payments position considerably and give employment in areas where it is much needed.

We are importing nearly £2 million worth of fish every year. This is another side of our imports which could be examined and corrected because if fish imports were reduced our balance of payments would be helped. Pre-packed food is playing an important part in our everyday life but the packaging sometimes accounts for 10 per cent of the cost. Food presented in this way is more convenient and easier to use but if we could get people back to eating natural food this would be of great help to our own industry.

Recent wage increases granted to roadworkers in Kerry have resulted in a loss of working hours. The workers have been given a wages increase for seven or eight months of the year but that is not really the answer for a man with a family to rear. All too often engineers rush through work early on in the year, and even employ more men to get the work done more quickly, instead of spreading the work over the whole year, thereby keeping those employed in full employment throughout the year.

I am sorry to note that not one member of the Fine Gael Party is in the House. I should like to hear a member of that party endorse what Deputy Bruton has said about the co-operation of the entire country — I take it he also means the co-operation of all Deputies — being necessary. Indeed, it is necessary. We have a good country. We have good people, by and large. If we can lead them, advise them and help them, developing all their energies in the right direction, then they will make a proper contribution. However, people cannot be allowed to have more than they are earning. There must be a levelling off and more must be given to those in greatest need. I trust that both sides of this House will co-operate in a policy which will bring a little sanity back into the situation.

The Minister should, I think, admit that he made a mistake and withdraw this Bill. It is not necessary. Both the Taoiseach and the Minister have admitted that it is not necessary. They have allowed negotiations to continue and they have asked for a voluntary agreement. Simultaneously, they put this gun to the heads of both the employers and the trade unions. This is not the way in which to approach negotiations on wage increases. There should be no gun involved in such negotiations.

From the beginning we have seen this new Minister for Finance make mistakes. I see him as a man who suddenly finds himself with real power as Minister for Finance. He decides his predecessor was wrong. He says he was not watching the economy. He decides he must take urgent action and the Taoiseach, unfortunately, listens to him. He decides there will be no backing down. He rushes in like a bull in a china shop and makes a statement to the Press. The Taoiseach, having recovered from the stress and strain of his visit to New York, realised that his new Minister for Finance was, perhaps, wrong and a more flexible approach must be adopted; that was followed by an admission that there would be a backing down on certain aspects. The Minister should have admitted his mistake. He should have gone a step further and withdrawn this Bill for the time being, giving both parties an opportunity of sitting down and negotiating.

We have seen a good deal of arrogance on the part of Ministers, Ministers quite unprepared to listen to reason. I believe it was arrogance on the part of the present Minister for Finance that prevented him from saying he had been a little hasty. I believe arrogance prevented him from withdrawing the Bill. Before rushing in like a bull in a china shop he should have gone to both Congress and the employers and asked them to sit down and negotiate and told them that, if negotiations failed, then the Government might have to come in with a prices and incomes policy. The Minister should not be above going to these bodies and discussing the position with them. Had he done that this Bill would not have been necessary. It is not necessary now.

I am not saying there is no inflation. There is. It is world-wide, but the Government have allowed inflation to continue beyond what was necessary. We saw that in the turnover tax and the wholesale tax. That was political expediency in action. On 18th March, 1969, the Minister for Finance at the time — it was one of his periods of cool judgment — said we had a crisis on our hands and action would have to be taken to meet that crisis. He was being an honest Minister then. What he said was true. Three weeks later the crisis suddenly disappeared like a mist. This is where political expediency came in. It was not wise to have a crisis on the eve of a general election. He adopted a Micawber-like attitude; he hoped something would turn up. This was a covering up. We do not know exactly what other covering up took place in the economic sphere though we are well aware of the covering up that took place in another sphere in regard to a matter which was debated here at length. Perhaps it is the results of this covering up that we are suffering from today.

The turnover tax was doubled this year. I heard a man in a shop say that only the turnover tax had been increased and there was no increase on cigarettes and drink. This shows how naïve the general public can be. Then the repercussions began. Prices spiralled; inflation began to gallop. The Minister was aware of the fact that he was bringing in this measure but he allowed CIE to increase fares and he allowed the Department of Posts and Telegraphs to increase the cost of postage and other charges. This was dishonest. These increases should not have been allowed.

There has been an obvious wavering from day to day. There is no set policy. The Government were advised by the Irish Congress of Trade Unions and by the Central Bank that there should be more emphasis on direct taxation. They ignored the warnings and advice given by the two bodies. It is interesting that the Central Bank and the ICTU agreed that there should be more emphasis on direct taxation. The policy of the Government has always been indirect taxation — a policy that has increased the prices of essential goods and one that weighs heavily on the most vulnerable in our community. The Government cannot pretend to have concern for the underdog and for the people on low incomes; they have never had concern for those people and their policy of indirect taxation proves this. Turnover tax has been put on food and medicines by this Government — the people who claim to be concerned about the poor of the country.

We hear frequently that the former Minister for Finance, Deputy Haughey, was a brilliant Minister. With his knowledge, experience and grasp of economic affairs it is puzzling that we have not heard what he thinks of the Prices and Incomes Bill. As far as I remember, he more or less denounced it. I do not think Fianna Fáil is overburdened with economists and financial experts and it is puzzling that we have not had the good fortune to hear Deputy Haughey speak on this Bill.

The former Minister for Finance presented a very simple Budget that was endorsed subsequently by the present Minister. I am quite sure that the present Minister did not like that Budget; however, he had no option but to endorse it, even though he knew it would create an inflationary trend. I have read the Minister's speech but there are several points he made that force me to regard the statement with some derision.

The Minister said "This Bill is not aimed at cutting back workers' living standards". I represent a constituency that comprises 99 per cent of workers at Ballyfermot, Crumlin, Inchicore and Drimnagh. I have been in their houses, both as doctor and TD; I have not seen any great opulence — most of them live from week to week. Some of them may have a car and it is an effort to provide petrol, tax and insurance. Incidentally, the Government allowed an increase in insurance rates prior to the introduction of the Bill but they now say that there are provisions for ensuring that insurance rates will not be increased. I know the problems of people in my constituency and at the end of many years of struggle few of them have, by their standards, a little comfort.

I was surprised to hear the Tánaiste compare this country with Sweden and speak about Sweden's difficulties. He spoke about the severe problems that country was experiencing but he did not trouble to compare the benefits to the workers in Sweden with those in this country. The Tánaiste said that the rise in consumer prices in Sweden has not been more than 7 per cent and said that people should realise the fact that these problems occur elsewhere. He further stated:

At the moment the Swedes are facing an acute inflation. This is the kind of thing to which people here should pay attention in order to get the right perspective. The Swedes are in a state of great consternation because there has been an increase of 7 per cent in consumer prices in one year.

The Tánaiste is quick to make a comparison with Sweden. We would be glad to give him time to discuss the social welfare and superannuation benefits paid to employees in Sweden as compared to benefits in Ireland. A different picture might emerge from such a comparison. It is easy to compare when it suits one's purpose but a fair comparison is essential and this has not been made.

The Tánaiste also compared us with Denmark where he stated there is a serious balance of payments problem. However, Denmark is providing much more for workers than we are. The Government say that the Bill is not aimed at cutting back the living standards of workers. I say it is. That is the intention of this Bill.

Would the Deputy explain how he arrives at this conclusion?

I could go back very many years when we speak about living standards. I can speak about this matter because I lived on the poverty line for too long. The Minister is trying to say that compared with previous years we are living in opulence. That may be so——

I did not say anything about living in opulence.

We may be living in opulence compared with people in, say, Biafra but it is not fair to say that our living standards are so very high. The Tánaiste compared our standards today with those obtaining 12 or 15 years ago. They were very low 12 or 15 years ago. We cannot honestly talk about percentage increases; we must remember how low our standard of living was 15 years ago. I have not seen great opulence in Ballyfermot, Crumlin, Drimnagh or Bluebell. I see ordinary working people, living in small houses, frequently in overcrowded conditions. One cannot talk to those people about cutting back their living standards.

The Deputy has said that this Bill is cutting back living standards. Can he explain that statement?

The intention of this Bill is to prevent the workers seeking a greater slice of the national cake and the Labour Party are fully aware of this. During my five years in this House I was involved in a few strikes. I do not like strikes and do not think they should take place; I have always thought that problems could be solved if people got together and talked. However, I have not been convinced that on every occasion employers were anxious to talk. I remember the occasion of a bus strike when the general manager of CIE, Mr. Lemass, was unwilling to talk with the employees. I remember a printers strike and on that occasion the employers' federation said they were going on holidays to the continent and it suited them to have a strike.

This decision to strike and to bring about the turmoil of which we speak is not all on the part of the workers. The workers have not the high living standard of which Ministers boast. The workers are entitled to a bigger share. They should not be satisfied with a small share of the profits of these companies. If we talk about productivity not being as high as it should be this may be due to bad management. The workers and the employers do not meet often enough in the big concerns. This is where the breakdowns occur. If the workers were taken into the employers' confidence we might have more productivity and more understanding. The workers are more than willing on all occasions to consider the problems of the employers.

The Minister said that the Bill is aimed at avoiding further disimprovement in the level of employment. There is a disimprovement in the level of employment. That is obvious. The Minister agrees with this. This is due to the fact that we have not got an independent economy. Our trouble arose because we were too anxious to bring in foreign capital. I spoke to many Irish people who were anxious to set up on their own here and they always said that if one did not know how to complete a form or spell one's name but applied for an industrial grant one would get it. They felt that if one's name was not Irish one would be certain to get a grant. A foreigner going to the IDA or An Foras Tionscal would have the form completed for him and would be given a grant. We have much talent in this country, much ability among the workers, but that talent and ability have never been fostered. We were anxious to bring in foreign companies to establish offshoots of the big international corporations here. This has proved to be very dangerous. If anything goes wrong, the offshoot is the part of the international corporation that suffers and if this happens we may find ourselves faced with mass unemployment. We have not got an independent economy. We have never really tried to exploit our own resources. Fishing is one example of this.

The Minister says that this legislation is clearly in the long-term interests of every section of the community. I cannot see how this is so. How could this incomes policy which is due to expire in December, 1971, have any other effect except to open the floodgates to wage demands and increases long overdue? I may have a suspicious mind but I must ask what will happen in November, 1971? It may be the Minister's intention to continue with this policy. The record has shown that one cannot trust the Fianna Fáil Government very much. The Minister says that ever since the pay settlement for the maintenance craftsmen the Government have repeatedly made it clear that the level of the 12th round increase was grossly excessive and bound to lead to unemployment. The ex-Minister for Finance went on television and stated that things were not good. That was denied three weeks later. It was said in the House that no such statement had been made and that no such state of affairs existed. It was claimed to be a myth. This is where the question arises as to whether we can believe the Government in regard to what they intend to do. We cannot trust them at all. This country cannot trust the Government.

I read what the Tánaiste said about constant exhortations to the workers. I do not think there have been constant exhortations such as the Tánaiste has referred to. Any such exhortations have taken place at businessmen's lunches and such functions. The phraseology used has not been comprehensible to the ordinary person. There is talk of the gross national product and of the price index but these terms are not comprehensible to the ordinary worker or to the housewife. The Government have not explained their plans. They were not anxious to state the position in this House. Both Opposition parties were constantly telling the Government about the price increases. The present Minister for Finance, who was Minister for Industry and Commerce, said often that there was no evidence in his Department of price increases. I attacked him on several occasions about price increases. I asked the Minister how he would get evidence of such increases. The Minister felt that people would write and tell him about them.

Before I came to this House I did not know that I should write to a Minister. I was a doctor in general practice and yet I did not know about writing to the Minister for Industry and Commerce. In my opinion people would not write to the Minister to tell him about every single increase. The Minister left the onus on the consumer to find out about such increases. He said that price control was working well. We have a different admission here by a few Ministers and a Parliamentary Secretary. Things did not work out well with the Prices Act of 1965. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Taoiseach admitted that the Prices (Amendment) Act was not working out properly even though the Government had wide powers of control. The wide powers of control were there but nothing was being done. This is obvious from the fact that prices have been increasing out of all proportion and nothing has been done.

Out of all proportion to what? The Deputy is ignoring the whole basic point when he says that.

Prices have increased out of all proportion.

In relation to what? Costs?

Yes, in relation to costs, to workers' wages and wage increases. We think prices are exorbitant. This point has never been tackled. The Minister would say that he had granted an increase but he never gave details of the investigation which took place to justify that increase. It is simple to give workers 10s or £1 increase and to increase prices by 6d. If it is a fast selling product, and the volume is good, the Minister will be assured of 30s or £2 a week per worker back. This is shown where the profits of companies have increased by so much in the past two years.

They keep saying, in effect: "This Bill will do the job". They said that the Prices (Amendment) Bill, 1965, would do everything. In an amendment which was not accepted, we suggested that there should be a closer scrutiny of the application for a price increase but the Minister thought everything was fine. Certainly, in reply to questions of ours, on all occasions he felt everything would be all right and that we had no need to worry; that the prices increases were not excessive and were fully justified. When so many Members of this side of the House told the Minister that unnecessary price increases were taking place, he said there was no evidence to that effect in his Department. We now know that he had not even the personnel to check. He had no way of detecting what price increases on essential goods were taking place unknown to him.

Time and time again the Fianna Fáil Party have asked the questions in effect: "What would you do? What would you want done?" The Labour Party are not opposed to a prices and incomes policy. We should like the incomes policy to include all incomes — everything, right across the board. We would like a prices policy which envisaged the setting up of a court, something like the Labour Court, having on it representatives of the trade unions, consumers — associations such as these. Any company wanting to increase the price of its products would have to go before that court and justify the increase. We should like to see a proper price control body such as this — not in the Department of Industry and Commerce, separate from that — that would be able to state all the facts and before which an applicant for an increase would have to appear and make his case. We would stand by any Government with a prices policy such as that and also an incomes policy that would not be a wages policy but an incomes policy that was spelled out. In this Bill, the Minister does not spell out an incomes policy. There are no loopholes for the workers to get any thing extra. If the worker is looking for shorter hours this Bill prevents him from obtaining them. The emphasis here is on what the worker must do. Then, just to make it look nice and to add the icing on the cake, the Minister states that this will apply to directors, to shareholders, and people like that. However, a worker cannot go back in January, 1972, and say: "You did not give me any increase or enough of an increase; can we not go back and claim it now?" The Minister knows that the shareholders and directors can do it and get the increase but that the worker cannot. As it is, it is difficult enough for the worker to get an increase to which he is entitled.

The Minister states that failure of attempts to secure a voluntary agreement was accompanied and followed by substantial wage claims by certain unions. Would he spell out exactly the number of wage claims, please? He further states that some claims were for an increase in the region of 50 per cent or £8 to £10 a week. I should like to know what particular union was involved here which was making a claim for £8 or £10 a week. I do not think the Minister should infer that unions were doing this unless he gives the full details. From my knowledge of the situation, this is not so. There was one worker in a particular industry who put forward a suggestion for something like a 100 per cent increase but it was thrown out. It never reached the stage where it would be considered. We always have those people in our community just as we have psychopaths, and so on.

The Minister says they have a duty to safeguard the national economy. Of course, they have: that is the duty of the Government. The Minister further states that we must protect the weaker sections of the community from the consequences of the selfish actions of their better placed fellows. He is talking, I presume, about the stronger placed workers. Is this correct?

And employers.

What about the land speculators? What tax do they pay? They do not pay a penny tax on the tremendous profits they get overnight. You can buy property worth £20,000 and sell it within two weeks for £30,000, making £10,000 on the deal, and not pay a penny tax——

That is not so.

I know it is a fact.

Except by defrauding.

No. It is a completely legalised way of holding on to £10,000 and not paying one penny tax. The ex-Minister for Finance made £200,000 profit out of the sale of his property and did not pay one penny tax on that transaction. Am I right?

I do not know.

Stick up for Charlie.

I saw the first signs of friendship this afternoon. I saw them talk. They were actually engaged in conversation. I am not saying it was the amiable——

The Deputy would be unwise to develop that theme in the Labour Party.

It certainly would be unwise to develop it. You will lose your "cool" over that.

The Deputy's party is wide open when he gets on to that tack.

I saw that. I was wondering. Certainly, I did not think for one minute that the ex-Minister for Finance was being asked to talk on this Prices and Incomes Bill. I can definitely guarantee that.

Perhaps Deputy Coughlan could throw a little more light on that kind of topic.

Deputy Coughlan does not know what went on between the Minister for Finance and his predecessor.

He knows what happened in Kilkee.

Could we get back to the Prices and Incomes Bill?

I hope the Minister is not comparing what happened in Kilkee with what happened between himself and the former Minister. I do not think they came to blows.

The Deputy ought not to follow that line.

I have never seen the Minister in such a joyful and jovial mood since last May. He is certainly a different man. I am a great judge of people's moods and temperaments.

Which Minister?

The present Minister has a perpetual smile on his face since last May. I need say no more. The emphasis here is on the workers. We are talking about the better off worker, the man whose neighbour is on a differential rent. The emphasis is on him. This is the cri de coeur. This is the thing that cries to the public. The person earning £25 or £30 a week is the selfish person. He must not be allowed to exploit his neighbour who is on the dole or receiving social welfare. This is what is intended here. This is to evoke public sympathy and get people to say it is quite right. What the Minister should be saying is that there are speculators but he did not say anything about that. This Fianna Fáil Government did nothing to stop the speculators from defrauding the people, and I call that defrauding the people.

The Deputy should look at his own benches for speculators. Practise what you preach. Ask Deputy Keating about speculation.

I am talking about defrauding the people and you have a monopoly of the speculators.

Notice taken that 20 Members were not present; House counted, and 20 Members being present,

There was no one on the Fine Gael benches all evening.

It should be made clear, although the Parliamentary Secretary, the Fianna Fáil Whip, does not realise this, that the onus is on the Government to provide a House.

Do not lecture me on the Rules of the House.

The Parliamentary Secretary needs it.

I understand them.

From what I read in the Official Report he certainly does not know his job.

A Deputy

Poor signs of a Coalition.

Mr. J. Lenehan

How many "Frenchies" did you bring from Donegal the other night?

(Interruptions.)

The Fianna Fáil Party are having nightmares about the word "coalition". They are obsessed by the word "coalition".

Tell us all about it now.

They are obsessed with the Labour Party. They do not talk about anything else.

Deputy O'Connell on the Prices and Incomes Bill.

(Interruptions.)

The Taoiseach said that is a very personal matter on which you cannot legislate and if you do not listen to your Taoiseach you should not be there. I am speaking as a doctor.

Deputy O'Connell on the Prices and Incomes Bill.

He is forgetting about it.

I am not forgetting about it. I am asking the Minister to withdraw this Bill at this late hour and I am explaining to him why he should. I am telling him that what he says is wrong. He is trying to delude the public. He said he is trying to rescue the weaker sections of the community from the consequences of the selfish actions of their better placed fellows. He is talking about the person earning £25 a week as opposed to the person earning £15 or £10 a week. He is not talking about the speculator who is making £10,000 or £50,000 a year and not paying income tax. This is what we should be talking about.

Mr. J. Lenehan

Or the doctors.

The land speculators.

Mr. J. Lenehan

The doctors are the biggest frauds in Europe and damn well you know it.

The Minister says he will control the prices of houses.

Mr. J. Lenehan

They never paid income tax. They never paid any tax.

How gullible the Minister must think we are.

Mr. J. Lenehan

Did the Deputy ever pay income tax?

I am proud to say I always pay income tax.

Mr. J. Lenehan

I do, too.

Has the Deputy anything more to say?

Mr. J. Lenehan

We will compare the figures next week.

Deputy O'Connell on the Bill.

The Minister talks about controlling the price of new houses. He has not gone about it the right way. He has not even talked about controlling the price of land. This is trying to job off the workers by saying he will control their wages and make sure that there will be price control in relation to new houses, when he knows prices have got out of hand completely and when he knows it is impossible for any working person to raise the deposit on his present income. I advised many people to try to buy their own houses. I told them if they saved up to £300 they would be able to raise the deposit. I know people who by stinting and saving managed to get the money but they found that the deposit had gone up to £500. I have seen people who tried to continue saving but each time the deposit beat them.

The Minister is allowing this to happen. I talk about collective responsibility and no Minister there can tell me: "I did not say that. I was not responsible for that," because I say that each man there is responsible and each man there was responsible for allowing the price of houses to go beyond the reach of the workers. Is it too much for a worker to ask for a house to live in, for a roof and shelter over his head? I do not think that is a lot to ask for in this country which is talked about as being a Christian country. The Constitution says that the family is the important unit and that we should therefore provide houses for families.

According to the Deputy he wants to amend the Constitution.

Did Deputy Carter speak yet?

Deputy O'Connell wants to amend the Constitution.

If the Government are serious they should say: "Let us be honest and put into action some of the clauses of the Constitution, some of the articles in it"— for instance Article 41. Let us see what they have done about that.

This is the fraud in the Minister's statement in which he tells us he will control the price of new houses. I am not convinced of this and I say this speech is a fraud. To try to appease the ordinary worker the Minister said that the action which the Government proposed to take is not, of course, confined to pay. Do not think for one moment that it is a wage freeze. This is another fraud because he knows in his heart and soul that he cannot implement what is in this Bill. He cannot do that with regard to profits and dividends. He is well aware of this. Let him not fool us on it.

Why can he not do it?

I am delighted the Parliamentary Secretary came in for enlightenment.

A Deputy

The Deputy is in great form tonight.

Yes, I am, when I see this fraud being perpetrated on the workers.

Why can he not do it?

Because the worker will put up with this until December, 1971. What about the profits then? They are back in the company but they will not go to the worker after December, 1971.

So it cannot be done?

But the profits can go to the directors in January, 1972.

Is that why the Labour Party voted against additional tax on profits?

But you do not take all the profits, do you? This is the fraud of all this. First of all the Minister is saying that he will make sure that profits are controlled. Does he honestly think he can control profits and dividends?

The Deputy has not said one word about that tax which his party voted against. I think he himself did not.

(Interruptions.)

One cannot win. If we want to vote against increases in taxation they throw in the social welfare benefit and when we vote against it they say we voted against social welfare increases.

There is nothing in it except that tax. Nothing else.

We were against the measures. We were against the Fianna Fáil Government because they came here in an incompetent way to bring in this taxation.

You know they are dishonest.

Let me talk on this. Yes, I do know they are dishonest and I have been seeing terrible trickery and corruption for five years.

What trickery was in that?

Let me talk. I could talk at great length about some of the corruption I have seen.

Tell us about that. That is what the Deputy is talking about — the control of profits.

Will the Minister ensure that after December, 1971 the profits will not go to the directors' salaries or all the other extras? Will he control all those?

Does the Deputy not think that the additional tax on profits will go at least some part of the way to control them?

Some small way. The Minister has been a solicitor or a lawyer — I do not know what he has been — and I do not know if he knows anything about companies. Most of his colleagues are experts on them. There are such things as expense accounts and I wonder if there is a provision in this Bill that the expense account will be watched.

Of course there is. The Deputy did not read the Bill, obviously.

Directors' expenses accounts?

Entertainment charges?

This is all included in this Bill?

This is covered in the Bill.

In which section?

Look at the definitions section for workers.

The workers again.

It includes a director.

This is a repressive measure against the workers of this country. The Minister does not like hearing the truth.

The Deputy is totally against the Bill without having read it.

I am against repressive action and legislation against the workers of this country and that is exactly what this is. I would not be here if I were not.

It is against directors and their expense accounts as well.

The Minister is denying the worker his just share of the production. That is what he is at and he is showing it more and more. I felt like clapping today when I heard over the radio in my car the secretary of my party say that since May last he has realised that they are a corrupt Government and that he is now convinced we could never support them on any occasion. This is the best news I have heard yet. Brendan Halligan, the secretary of our party, said exactly how he felt and this is true.

There were political reasons.

They have shown as a party, that they are not fit to run this country. What they have been trying to do is by every means — and this is the humiliation of the ex-Minister sitting up in one corner——

(Interruptions.)

Order. Will interruptions please cease? Deputy O'Connell.

The Minister also said:

Furthermore, the extension and the strengthening of price control is not only designed to hold price rises to the minimum but in conjunction with the increase in direct taxation of companies already announced to ensure that moderation will apply equally to aggregate profits before distribution.

The Minister has not spelt out to me anyway how the price controls are being strengthened to ensure that there will not be unnecessary increases.

Hear, hear.

I feel sure that all my colleagues would stand by a proper incomes policy if it had built-in guarantees to the workers that the same kind of restrictions would apply all over the board and if it had an independent prices body, like the Labour Court, with trade union representatives and consumers' representatives, that would ensure that there would be no unnecessary price increases.

Would such a policy involve control of income and wages?

I have just said that we would support a Government that would bring in an incomes policy that would guarantee the worker that the same restrictions would apply all over the board.

The Deputy has a few colleagues who do not agree with him but he has a few who do also.

The Fianna Fáil Party never agreed with this, of course.

We will if you give us money at 1 per cent.

Now, Frank.

You are not too bad at getting it for nothing.

(Interruptions.)

The Minister says:

A rational and realistic policy on incomes is a first principle in this situation.

This is not what the Minister is putting before us. He goes on:

The gravity of the problem and the grim consequences for the nation if it is not tackled are now widely appreciated among our people.

The Government have been telling us that everything is all right and we have been telling them that everything is all wrong. I figured it was not worth fighting the last election because they had done so much for the country-everything was marvellous they said. If the gravity of the problem is widely appreciated among our people it is certainly due to no effort on the Government's part. It was the Opposition who were constantly telling the people that. The Minister continues:

They want to see and they are entitled to expect a voluntary wage agreement.

I agree, but I cannot understand its relevance to this Bill. They want and they are entitled to expect a voluntary wage agreement which is realistic and adequate to our situation.

But they have not got it.

The Minister did not give them a chance. Let us get it straight. There was no complete breakdown, but I believe that what did happen was the result of the stand taken by the Government.

Another case of the Government butting in as happened in relation to the banks and the cement strike.

Deputy O'Donovan is doting tonight.

I am on the ball tonight.

We are told that the Government have demonstrated their readiness to hear representations by the Public Service, by Congress and by employers. I am wondering if the Government met them before this?

Not in connection with the Bill — not before the Bill was announced.

Why not? Would it not have been a more sensible approach?

Not in the circumstances.

The Minister for Finance rushed in here with this legislation because he thought he was on to something good by showing up his colleague, the ex-Minister for Finance, as being an incompetent man. He was found to be wrong and now he has neither the courage nor the humility to come forward and admit that he was wrong. We in this House would have far more respect for him if he were to come in here and say: "I have been wrong. This legislation is not right at the present time. We should give them a chance to get down to serious discussion."

I shall not stay awake at night because of the Deputy's lack of respect for me.

From what I hear and from what I know, the Minister can stay awake from now on because his tenure of office is very short.

We heard that before the last general election. In fact, I have been hearing statements of that kind since I came in here.

The difference is that the Minister is now hearing such statements from his own side.

From the way in which the Government have carried on in office, nobody would expect the workers to trust them. The workers will not be fobbed off by being told that this Bill is aimed at protecting them. Even the Higher Senior Civil Servants Association have expressed a vote of no confidence in the Government. To my way of thinking, that is the last straw. All over the country, the attitude has been the same — no confidence in the present Administration. Covering up can be done for so long but not forever. While I was still at school I remember the Bill dealing with CIE being introduced. At that time, one of our teachers told us of how dishonest the Government were. Down through the years it has been the same. Deputy Cluskey spoke here about Taca and he read for us one of their dinner menus. All these things indicate that the Government have never been either sincere or honest.

To those Deputies on the Fianna Fáil benches I would say that you should be asking questions and not be like sheep going through and being counted along the line. You will not be appreciated in your constituencies if you do not think for yourselves in relation to this Government.

The Deputy should do his own worrying about his own constituency.

The Minister will never become Taoiseach although he is aspiring to that office.

The Deputy will be surprised.

It is good to hear that.

A belated qualification.

Hope springs eternal.

I am wondering how relevant is all of this to the Prices and Incomes Bill.

Again, the Minister is losing his cool. I have studied the Minister and I know when this happens to him.

It has not happened tonight.

I did not say it happened tonight. I think the Minister has lost his chance and not his cool. We are told that the Government intend to protect the welfare of our people. This is something they have never done in the past. Note the word "intend". This is new. They say they will not allow sectional interests to cajole selfish claims and so on. Is this the Minister for Finance again? Is he talking about the workers and again ignoring the speculators and the Tacateers?

How does the Deputy know that I am talking about the workers? Is he not putting words into my mouth?

When I asked the Minister about this he told me it was the workers about whom he was talking.

I did not.

The Minister did.

I said workers and employers.

What are speculators? Are they employers?

I included them.

The Minister did not.

I am not objecting to them being excluded but my answer was "workers and employers".

I must say that I had great respect for the present Minister for Finance when he first came here. I thought then that he was a very sincere man. I remember his view as being that a period in opposition would be good for the Government. His view was that such a period in opposition would rid Fianna Fáil of the maligant growth from which they were suffering. These were his views. The words I am using may not have been his — I have put them in medical terms. I understood the Minister's view to be that Fianna Fáil did not know who were the true Fianna Fáil men. I believed that the Minister was sincere at that time. That is why I am talking about the workers. I regard the Minister as representing this Government.

This Government are against the workers. Their attitude is to curse them.

Nonsense.

That is why I say that it is the workers whom the Minister has in mind.

The Deputy can say these things.

I have seen the Minister in action. He has spoken of the new Fianna Fáil. May I say in this regard that there is no great example being shown by the Minister for Local Government — this little individual from Galway — who is more arrogant than was his predecessor. I would ask the Minister for Finance to have a talk with him.

The greatest arrogance in this House comes from the Labour benches.

The Minister, like the Taoiseach, has an inferiority complex about the Labour Party.

The smaller the Party, the more arrogant they become. The arrogance of the Labour Party manifests itself at Question Time each day. The rules have to be broken because of the importance of Deputy O'Connell's questions.

I know that the Minister has this inferiority complex about us and why should he not have, because when some of our great men stand up and take him to task, he is not able to cope?

Could we come to the Bill? For the record, nobody has mentioned the Bill once.

I do not like to be frivolous about this.

(Interruptions.)

I am talking about the Minister and about the sincerity which I had no reason to doubt at one time. I do not think he liked these Tacateers who were grasping Fianna Fáil and destroying the party. The Minister for Finance really believed there should be something done about it. I would not like him to become a part of this business and talk about repressive legislation against the workers. This is not good enough.

I admire the Minister though I had occasion one time not to do so. When I was growing up we lived in poverty and we received a secondary education, probably through accident and a little persuading of the Christian Brothers by my mother that if we got first place in the class we would not have to pay. I heard that when one reached the age of 16 or 17 one could get a job in the corporation if one had a letter from a Fianna Fáil TD. I went with a friend to see the Minister's father on the Malahide Road. He did not give me a letter but he gave one to my friend. My father had not been out in 1916. The Minister's father asked my friend if his father had been and when he said he had, he got the letter and got the job in the rates department of Dublin Corporation. It makes me very bitter when I think over that. I have known all my life that if you wanted to get anything in this country you had to have a letter from some Fianna Fáil Minister. I received a letter from a man in Galway seeking a labourer's cottage. I showed it to an important person in the Fianna Fáil Cabinet.

I am afraid the Deputy is getting far away from the Bill.

I am showing up some of the Fianna Fáil corruption and showing that they are not interested in the workers. I mention this fact because I felt very annoyed about it.

Does the Deputy try to help his constituents to get jobs?

Of course I do. This man from Galway wrote to me and I went to a Parliamentary Secretary, who was from Galway. I asked him if something could be done for this poor man. He said: "No, you deal with it". I wrote on behalf of the man. I got a letter from him later saying that this Parliamentary Secretary had called at his house and said he would see to it that he would never get a labourer's cottage. It is very annoying to hear this and to know they would stoop to such low measures.

This still has nothing to do with the Bill.

It is showing up, with great respect to you, Sir, the great corruption that exists in the Fianna Fáil Party. This corruption prevents them from being honest about Bills brought into this House. I have reached the stage where I will not trust any Bill they bring into this House.

That is scandal mongering.

It is not scandal mongering. I have absolute proof of it.

The Deputy should not be allowed to say this.

Should I not? I have absolute proof to show that up. I certainly should be allowed say it.

The Deputy is obviously not able to make a speech.

I will sit down and wait for the Deputy to stand up and put on his great performance. The Minister's brief was ill-prepared. I ask the Minister, even at this late stage, to be sincere about this and if he is he will win the respect and the admiration of the working class people. The trade union movement and the labour movement would admire the Minister if he had courage to say: "Go ahead with your talks, have your discussions, we will leave this in abeyance". We would all applaud the Minister if he did this. We should not take political advantage of anything like this. The Minister might say: "That is humiliation". It is not. It is humility, not humiliation.

Would the Deputy speak about the complex problem we have and how it should be tackled?

Let the employer-labour conference continue negotiations. Let them go ahead with their negotiations and leave this Bill in abeyance.

What happens if it breaks down?

I do not believe it will.

But if it does?

If it does we will support the Minister on this Bill. Why not allow that? What would the Minister say to that?

Is the Deputy serious?

I am speaking on my own behalf. I see all sorts of consternation on my right here. The Minister could say that he will leave this in abeyance for a while, that we will see how they get on, and come back later.

In that event, the Labour Party will support every iota in this Bill overnight.

I could not speak for all the Labour Party. I am speaking for myself. I would feel duty bound to applaud the Minister if he said: "We will leave this in abeyance. We will let them go ahead with their negotiations." This would be a fine gesture on the Minister's part. It would be without precedent in this House that a Minister would stand up and say that. Perhaps the Minister will follow the hare, do what all the others did and bring in this Bill. The Minister would be a very honest man if he had the courage to stand up and say that he would leave this in abeyance. There would be great admiration for him throughout the country.

I do not intend to hold up the House for very long because a lot has already been said on this Bill. There is an old saying "well begun is half done". There was a great deal of confused thinking in regard to this Bill when it was introduced. While the Bill may have meant certain things it did not indicate what was wanted. It was only when the pressure was put on by some of the trade unions that it was seen how difficult it would be to get this Bill through all stages. We then had a virtual climb down by the Taoiseach and the Minister for Finance. It was shown to them beyond yea or nay how difficult it would be to implement this Bill in full. This was proved in exactly the same way when a similar type Bill was introduced across the water. I do not intend to set at naught the efforts of the Minister in trying to rectify a very difficult situation but I believe he went the wrong way about it. I believe if he had consulted with people prior to the publication of this Bill, he would have found a better answer because there is always an answer to every human problem. Even though the talks may have started off on the wrong foot by the time they are finished a certain amount of agreement will have been reached without the introduction of the coercion which I see running through this Bill. The Minister is well aware, with his background in the national movement and that of his people that while we may talk with an Irishman and bring him along, he will not be coerced.

That is what is happening here. We are putting a standstill on wages, a standstill on incentives and a standstill on bonuses, and we are doing it in many different ways. We are doing it by the introduction of the differential rents system on corporation estates. Although the Minister admitted to me a fortnight ago that there would be no increase in differential rents, that they were frozen, the Minister for Local Government said the following week that was not the position. As a result of what the Minister for Local Government said, a questionnaire has been sent to all employers in the country whereby they are to inform the local authorities of every penny that is earned by employees occupying corporation houses. This is what is happening in all Corporation estates. Incentives, collective bargaining and bonuses have all come under the lash of the differential rents system.

Where will this lead? The simple answer is that the workers will not bother their heads to improve production. They will not bother their heads about the incentives given because they will be taken back either through the local authority by way of increases in differential rents or by way of income tax. In my own city they have organised to oppose this and I am proud to say that we in the Labour Party will lead that opposition in Limerick. The days are gone when if any firm modernise their production, improve their organisation they then say to the workers: "Because of your efforts last year we made £X. We are dividing it down the middle so that there is so much for you and so much for us, and we hope to double that next year." That is what I see in the Bill.

Then there is the threat against the unions, the fines to be imposed. Does the Minister not know in his heart and soul that there is no more chance of beating organised labour than of the Pope becoming a Protestant? I do not know what rushed the Minister into this, because it is not the way he usually handles these things. Not alone the Parliamentary Labour Party but organised labour throughout the country will oppose this in every shape and form. To avoid all that, the Minister should allow the worker to increase his income through the incentive bonus so that he can enjoy the results of the labour he has put in on the shop floor.

There are people in industry who I would not put in charge of a fish stall in Moore Street, with all due respect to the traders in Moore Street. There is the problem of the Hibernian Transport Company. No one knows where that will end. However, I know something about it because we are deeply involved in it in Limerick. I know why the Hibernian Company crashed and it was not the workers or the dockers who crashed it. The Government were warned that this was coming and they did nothing about it.

Here is the comparison. If an organisation are efficient, if they have good public relations and if there is co-operation between employer and employee, through their united efforts the cake will be bigger. It is a different situation where the directors have their business breakfast at 8.30 a.m. provided by a qualified chef; their business coffee between 11 o'clock and 11.30; their business luncheon between 1 and 3 o'clock; and then at 5 o'clock have their tea and go off to the golf links. That is what was happening in the Hibernian Transport Company. I know it and the Government knew it.

You cannot run a rule over society generally as is being done in this Bill. The result will be to curb efficiency and reduce the effectiveness and driving force of workers. It is like putting a racehorse into a donkey derby. That is how it seems to me in my business.

I would advise the Minister to have another look at this whole situation before it is too late. While the Government increase their expenditure by 20 per cent, the unfortunate man on the workshop floor who is working from 8 o'clock in the morning until late in the evening on overtime, Saturday work and so on, in order to bring home a few more pounds to provide those extra comforts we all need, has his income reduced by the introduction of this Bill. The Tánaiste has made comparisons with other countries. I cannot subscribe to comparisons with other countries in these matters, because this is Ireland, Sweden is Sweden, Canada is Canada, and Australia is Australia. We cannot make such comparisons. We must live within our means and within our means of production.

If we do not produce goods and export them the country is doomed. This Bill is putting a halt on production and incentives. If collective bargaining is not allowed, if it is to be 6 per cent all round, we are putting a halt on the progressive firm. I am not going into the details of this Bill as assiduously as I should; I am looking at the overall picture. We can talk about speculators, but the Minister knows more about that than anybody else. That is like throwing apples into an orchard as far as the Minister is concerned. The Minister spoke about people in high places and we admired him for doing so. It was about time somebody in his party said, "Stop". As far as dividends, directors' fees and expenses are concerned we all know about the old swindle sheet. Directors are able to wine and dine their customers royally because these expenses are offset by tax reliefs which means the State are paying anyway.

I do not intend to get involved in details; I am just trying to give the Minister a clear picture. Unlike the Minister and his colleagues I happen to live with the people day and night. The best way for a man in public life to educate himself is to be a good listener. In order to prevent chaos in industry I would advise the Minister, in the interests of the country generally and in the interests of the workers, to have another look at this Bill. The one thing to remember here about an Irishman is that you can lead him but never drive him.

This has been a lengthy and in some respects a tedious debate on the Second Stage. It is reasonable to expect that those who oppose the Bill oppose it broadly on one of two grounds: either on the ground that there is no serious problem of inflation and, consequently, there is no necessity for the Bill; or that there is such a problem but that the approach outlined in this Bill is the wrong approach for solving that problem. A different approach would be spelled out and the Government would be told "That is the line you should take". The most significant thing about this debate is the deafening silence from the Opposition benches on what they think should be done, with the exception of Deputy Keating who did purport to offer an alternative approach, and I shall deal with him separately.

The Minister did not hear Mr. Lemass when he was in Opposition saying it was not the job of an Opposition to propose what the Government should do?

I am coming to that. It was quoted in the debate by Deputy Donegan. The point I am making is that in this situation, where everybody who spoke admitted we have a serious problem of inflation, what the public wants and expects to know, irrespective of what Mr. Lemass said or what Deputy Donegan or Deputy Tully quoted him as saying, is whether the Opposition are suggesting an alternative approach to this problem. They now know that the Opposition are not suggesting any alternative.

We can approach this matter on the basis of whether or not there is a serious problem. There has been widespread acknowledgment that there is a serious problem. Virtually all speakers from the Fine Gael Party have said "Yes, there is a serious problem". They then went on to tell us why we had this problem. They alleged it was because the Government had not taken action. They alleged they had told us in the past how it should be done. Indeed, some of them went back 20 years, some ten years, some five years and some back to the last Budget, but virtually all of them went back to tell us about the past. I shall deal with some of the arguments made in that regard, but before I follow that red herring I want to draw attention to the fact that this country is today faced with a serious problem of inflation.

The public want to know if the Opposition can suggest an alternative approach for dealing with that problem today. They do not want to know what caused the problem, whether it was 30 years ago, ten years ago or the last Budget, the public's interest is in what is to be done about this problem. In this Bill and the Supplementary Budget the Government are proposing a certain line of approach. With the exception, as I have said, of Deputy Keating, who purported to offer an alternative approach, no Opposition Deputy attempted to outline how he thought the problem should be approached. Even in the context of the furious efforts being made by the Fine Gael Party and the Labour Party to lay the foundations for a possible coalition, we did not hear what the Fine Gael Party or the Labour Party, or the Fine Gael Party and the Labour Party in a coalition, if they were in office tomorrow would do about this problem. The deafening silence on this matter is one that the public will not lose sight of.

The public will know that the approach which the Government are taking must be, by and large, the best approach because no one has been able to suggest anything better. I made it very clear from the beginning when announcing the policy enshrined in this Bill that we were reluctant to take this course, that there were certain fundamental aspects of it that were essential, but that we were willing and happy to listen to representations from any quarter in regard to anomalies that would crop up or in regard to a better line of approach to this problem. As I say, we did not hear anything about it except in the case of Deputy Keating. I had better dispose of that now in case I lose sight of it later.

Basically, Deputy Keating said that what was wrong was that the system was wrong; inevitably you had to have this kind of problem in a capitalist society and, until the whole system was changed, you could expect this kind of thing to happen. However, subject to that basic and fundamental point, in the context of the society in which we live — in other words in the context of the problem with which the Government are faced — he made certain suggestions. He suggested that we must have a multiple approach to the problem of controlling inflation. Monetary control and taxation were necessary in addition to an incomes policy. This is, of course, perfectly true and I would remind the House that, in regard to monetary control, in the early part of this year there were quite stringent restrictions applied in relation to hire purchase and certain guidelines were laid down by the banks in connection with the extension of credit. Because of the banks closure we do not know precisely what has happened to credit. We will know in a month or two and we should then have a reasonably accurate idea of the position but, as of now, we do not know and this, of course, is a disadvantage in attacking the whole problem of inflation.

There is no evidence to suggest there has been a wholesale increase in the amount of credit during the banks closure. If there had been this would be an additional contributory factor in dealing with inflation but, while we do not know and cannot know until the accounts are made up, such evidence as there is does not suggest that there has been any massive increase in credit.

Deputy Keating also suggested that a system of differential taxation would induce lower interest rates at home and hold more capital in the country. He did not advert to that working in reverse; he did not advert to whether that would keep capital out. He would not, I think, suggest that, leaving aside the intricacies of this problem, this and the other points he put forward, taken together and put into operation as a package deal, would solve the problem of inflation with which we are faced. He dealt with the matter in very competent terms, if I may say so. He was one of the few speakers on the Opposition benches who adverted to the fact that this is a worldwide problem but he distinguished between the worldwide effect of it and the internal inflation from which we are suffering. They are two separate items. There is obviously no way in which we can control the effects of world inflation, if I may call it that. The really worrying and damaging development in recent times in our economy has been the extent of internal inflation reflected in the rate at which our unit wage costs went ahead.

A Cheann Comhairle, with due respect to the Minister, there are very few——

The Deputy may not interrupt in this fashion. The Deputy will resume his seat.

I am asking if we can have a House.

Notice taken that 20 Members were not present; House counted, and 20 Members being present,

I was saying that of all the speakers from the Opposition benches in this debate the only one who purported to offer any alternative line of approach was Deputy Keating. Indeed, the absence of any alternative approach from the Opposition benches, apart from that of Deputy Keating, is of great significance; it is something the public will have noted.

Surely the Minister can do better than that. This is the fourth time he has said that since he started.

I am repeating it

For the benefit of his own party who were not here.

No, for the benefit of the Opposition Deputies. Deputy Keating also said that a reduction in profits was one method that might be used in controlling inflation. He did not advert — there was a noticeable absence of advertence by Opposition speakers on this — to the tax imposed on profits in the Supplementary Budget. Listening to the Opposition speeches one would think nothing was being controlled except wages. This is not true. I know that most Opposition Deputies have met representatives of the Federation of Irish Industries and heard their version of the effect of that tax and, if they are to be believed, the effect will be devastating, to say the least of it. Whether or not that is true is another matter, but I think it is reasonable to expect——

The Minister should have known that before he put the tax on.

I did know.

Then why worry about it.

Tell us.

I did know. My point is that it is reasonable to expect that in a debate on prices and incomes, in which people make allegations that control is exercised on wages only, there might be some advertence to the tax introduced in the Supplementary Budget which, as I said, taken with the Bill, is part of a package deal.

They are not.

That is what I said when I introduced them.

They are not. The Minister tried before to have the two debated together. They are different things and the Minister should not try to pull that off.

How it is dealt with in the House is a different matter. These two matters must be viewed together in the light of the economic situation, particularly having regard to the inflationary situation. Deputy Tully is now bearing out the point I am making. He and Opposition speakers would like to discuss this Bill and pretend there was no increase in taxation on profits. This is relevant to the debate and I think I have made that point.

We had statements from Deputies, some of them in rather arrogant, superior tones, about the alleged way in which this matter has been fumbled, mishandled and so on. We had suggestions from both Opposition parties that, having announced the policy, we ran away from it. To illustrate this I will refer to a speech made by Deputy Cruise-O'Brien on 4th November in this debate. In his own inimitable way he painted a picture of the announcement of policy changes. He went on to say "The Minister in whom we are asked to have confidence"— I am sorry. The Deputy made this statement during the debate on the Vote of Confidence——

The Minister should get it straight.

I have got it straight.

The Minister makes up his mind in different ways.

I know Deputy Cruise-O'Brien does not want to have his statement quoted——

The Minister must give the reference.

The reference, as I have given it, is the speech by Deputy Cruise-O'Brien on the Motion of Confidence in the Taoiseach on 4th November.

The Minister must be prepared to give the relevant column number.

I will dig that up. I am interested——

Until the Minister gives the proper reference he must not quote from the statement. The Minister will learn as he goes along.

I am interested to hear this from Deputy Tully who makes a practice of coming into this House and saying that the Minister said such and such a fortnight ago. When he is challenged he never produces proof.

Has the Minister any reference in that connection? If he has he should quote it, or otherwise he should keep quiet.

I have correspondence with Deputy Tully about it.

The Minister has not correspondence with me about this matter. His statement is untrue.

Is the Deputy prepared to stand over that?

I am prepared to say that the Minister is not stating a true fact.

All right. I will dig it up. I will now quote from column 956, volume 249 of the Official Report, the debate on the Second Stage of the Prices and Incomes Bill. I shall quote from my statement and also some interruptions that took place:

The failure of attempts to secure a voluntary agreement by the Employer/Labour Conference was accompanied and followed by substantial wage claims by certain unions — some were for an increase in the region of 50 per cent or £8 to £10 a week — and by a rising level of expectations on the part of the workers generally.

Dr. O'Donovan: That is not true.

Mr. Colley: It is true.

Dr. O'Donovan: It is not.

Mr. Colley: Of course it is true.

Mr. Desmond: Which claim?

An Ceann Comhairle: Deputies will get an opportunity of replying to the Minister later.

Dr. O'Donovan: We can reply plenty on that.

Mr. Colley: It was agreed that that was true by the Congress of ICTU in our discussions with them.

I think I actually said the Executive; however, it was agreed in our discussions with them.

Dr. O'Donovan: It is not true.

Mr. Colley: I was there.

Dr. O'Donovan: I have been with them.

Mr. Colley: I was there.

In column 957 of the same volume it is further stated:

Mr. Colley: The Deputy does not know what he is talking about. I was there.

Dr. O'Donovan: That is not true.

Mr. Colley: The Deputy should not accuse me of telling lies. I am saying I was there and it was said.

Dr. O'Donovan: I will accuse any member of this Government of telling lies if I feel like it.

Mr. Colley: It is easy enough for the Deputy to make assertions of that nature.

Dr. O'Donovan: I am telling the truth.

Mr. Colley: The Deputy is not telling the truth.

Deputy O'Donovan was backed up by Deputy Desmond and by other speakers on that side of the House. I know the Labour Party do not like this but I have repeated that quotation from the debate because I took grave exception to the statement by Deputy O'Donovan. On thinking over the matter I thought it might have been said in the heat of the moment; therefore when the Deputy was speaking in the debate I said that I was giving the Deputy an opportunity to withdraw the remark. He replied "Not at all".

This is in the same pattern as some of the other allegations with which we have had to deal. I should like to tell the House the following facts. In the electrical contracting industry two claims were lodged with the National Joint Industrial Council at the end of September, 1970. The larger claim was for an hourly rate of 20s as against the existing rate of 10s 3d — an increase of £19 10s for a 40-hour week, or 95 per cent, plus improvements in shift work, overtime rates, country allowances, et cetera. The smaller claim that was lodged was for an hourly rate of 15s — an increase of £9 10s or 46 per cent, plus 2s allowance per hour site allowance.

By whom was it lodged?

I was about to say. The larger claim was made by the Irish Engineering Industrial and Electrical Trade Union and the smaller claim by the Electrical Trade Union of Ireland. However, these are not the only ones. In the building construction industry, at a meeting of the Joint Industrial Council on 13th October, 1970, the union claimed, inter alia, a pre-agreement adjustment of 6d per hour, or £1 for a 40-hour week, and an increase for all building workers of £6 per week for a one year agreement, a total of £7 per week. Taking Dublin rates, this £7 per week would mean a 35 per cent increase for skilled workers and 40 per cent increase for unskilled workers. In the ESB there was a claim by the National Engineering and Electrical Trade Union, on the 31st July last, which amounted to an increase of 42 per cent at the minimum and 48 per cent at the maximum, or an increase of £8 at the minimum to £12 at the maximum. In the case of electricians, there was a claim by the Electrical Trade Union of Ireland on the 12th October, 1970, which would have the effect of giving an increase of £5 to £6 for all workers and up to £8 to workers qualifying for shift premium.

If the Minister wants to be fair, would he tell us what proposals were made by Congress at the employer-labour conference?

Do not shift ground now.

It is undoubtedly dishonest——

When introducing the Second Stage of the Bill I dealt with the whole context of this. One of the reasons we had to move fast was that claims of this nature were being lodged and a pattern was being established and——

Tell the House the proposals of Congress.

Deputy Donovan is behind the Deputy——

Nothing the Minister has said contradicts one word I said.

The Deputy amazes me.

Who lodged the JIC claim?

I told the House. I mentioned the unions concerned. I went on to mention the names of the unions.

That was in the electrical industry.

I was interrupted, but I mentioned the unions. I have mentioned the Irish Engineering Industrial and Electrical Trade Union, which was the major one. The smaller claim was by them by the Electrical Trade Union of Ireland. Did I not say that?

The Minister divorced one from the other, and from his own original statement.

I do not understand the Deputy.

Does the electrical joint industrial council still have that claim before it?

I would assume so.

The Minister will learn differently in a few days.

The point I was making, which was valid, was that such claims were being lodged by trade unions. This was denied. Such claims can set a pattern. This was a question of fact. I was contradicted from the benches opposite and accused of telling lies. I am still waiting for Deputy O'Donovan to say that he is sorry and to withdraw the allegation.

Possibly the Minister is not sure of what happened. If the Minister says that the claims were lodged and backed by the unions and are in course of being processed by them, then they are claims. The Minister is aware that from time to time a JIC application is made and is discussed around the table and finally dropped, and then there is another claim which is pursued. My information is that that is what happened in those particular cases and that no definite claim was made.

(Interruptions.)

I did not accuse the Minister of being a liar. This was reported in the newspapers. I believe the Minister picked it up from the newspapers.

(Interruptions.)

Deputies will have noticed that when introducing the Second Stage I did not say anything about a claim for 100 per cent. I suspect this is what Deputy O'Donovan was thinking about. There was a background to that. I was not relying on that at all. I was talking about the claims which I quoted and which were made by the unions. I repeat that what I said was correct. I have given the references and Deputies can try to switch that around any way they like. The point I made was valid and factually correct and to suggest that I was not telling the truth is unjustifiable and now merits a withdrawal.

I did not suggest at any stage that the Minister was telling lies. I said it was not the truth. There is a difference.

(Interruptions.)

I have made my point. The next thing I want to deal with is that Deputy Dr. FitzGerald in this House and outside it has made great play with the argument that the Government failed to grasp the opportunity which was given to them in 1965 with the publication of the NIEC report on the economic situation, which was known as Report No. 11, and which set out the principles on which an incomes policy could be based. Deputy Dr. FitzGerald is being very naïve about this. I would be the first to acknowledge that the report was a very important first step towards the achievement of a voluntary incomes policy, but it was only a first step. The NIEC in their subsequent report on full employment said that the statements in Report No. 11 did not add up to an incomes policy in the sense of being a series of measures or actions directed towards establishing the conditions in which an appropriate relationship between income and production could be achieved.

The Full Employment Report and subsequent NIEC report stressed that institutional arrangements were necessary both to achieve the concensus on which an incomes policy must rest and to enable this consensus to have an effect on what was actually happening on the incomes front. The theory of an incomes policy is simple, but the effective implementation of an incomes policy is not simple. It has not been satisfactorily solved in any country in which free enterprise dominates. As experience in Britain and elsewhere has shown, new institutional arrangements of the type needed for an incomes policy cannot be created overnight. If they are to work they must be accepted and supported by all the parties concerned.

The Government, in the Third Programme, set out their ideas of the type of institutional arrangements which might be appropriate. The NIEC returned to this question early in 1969. They spent over a year trying to reach agreement on the new institutional arrangements. They finally reached an agreement and that in itself was a tremendous achievement. The practical recommendations in the report offered a means for implementing the principles which had been set out earlier. Unfortunately it appears that the proposals in that report, which Deputy Dr. FitzGerald seems to consider unduly conservative, were so far in advance of thinking among some of the trade unions, at any rate, that support for them was not given at the annual congress of ICTU.

When the NIEC report came out, the Government accepted that its contents represented a consensus of the views of both unions and employers. The Government made every effort to have them implemented. The Government moved very fast on that front.

The first or the second report?

The report which came out earlier this year.

What about the 1965 one?

Did the Minister do anything about that one?

I dealt with it. Was the Deputy listening to what I said?

What is the Minister's attitude to the recommendation of a dividends equalisation tax?

Deputies must allow the Minister to proceed without interruption and then, if he so wishes, to answer questions.

When that report came out, the Government, accepting that it represented a consensus of view between unions and employers, made every effort to have it implemented. Government policy continues to aim at a rational and realistic policy on incomes — preferably by way of voluntary agreement. There is one particular aspect of Deputy FitzGerald's naïveté in this field on which I want to make a special comment. He seems to consider that the introduction of a dividends equalisation tax is all that is necessary to ensure an effective and voluntary incomes policy. Yet, in an article in the Irish Times on 22nd October, 1970, he acknowledged that the tax which he proposes — if it had been in force — would not have been applicable in any year between 1959 and 1967 except 1966. I think it is not unfair to say that the importance which wage- and salary-earners would attach to a tax which might never be applied is, at the least, problematical.

There is no specific mention of a dividends equalisation tax in the NIEC Report No. 11. In paragraph 60 of that report, reference is made to tax or other measures and we are advised to look at what other countries are doing. The idea of a dividends equalisation tax was, as far as I know, first put forward in the British journal, The Economist, in 1963. Even during the Labour Government's tenure of office in Britain, there was no question of introducing it. The idea was examined in detail in my Department and by the Revenue Commissioners. I am satisfied it could not effectively or equitably be applied.

I shall explain. This debate went on for a long time. One Deputy spoke for up to 5½ hours. Do not expect me to cover everything in a few minutes.

The Minister has all next week.

The Government accept that aggregate profits and income from dividends should not rise excessively compared with other incomes. Present taxation provisions are, I believe, adequate to deal with any tendency for them to do so. This is surely confirmed by the fact — as Deputy FitzGerald accepts — that only in 1966 have they risen faster than wage and salary incomes. Only in that year would such a tax have operated if we had one enacted. The present Bill deals somewhat more severely with increases in dividends than with increases in wages and salaries.

With regard to a dividends equalisation tax, as to why it would not operate effectively or equitably, let me give an example or two. Take the simple case of a dividends equalisation tax based on the performance of some index of dividends compared to some index of wages and salaries — the NIEC Report No. 11 was concerned with something different and much more complicated, namely, the question of aggregating post-tax purchasing power derived from investment. The rate of tax in that case could be fixed only after the out-turn for the year was known. Even that would be a short time in which to allow for temporary fluctuations, and so on, and therefore the tax would have to be applied retrospectively.

Furthermore, if the rate were applied at the same rate to everybody — with the intention of siphoning-off a certain amount of dividend in the aggregate — obviously there would be a considerable inequity in the incidence of the tax among individuals. Dividends vary considerably from company to company, depending on efficiency, capital employed, degree of competition or lack of it and the extent of the risk involved.

That is the investor's choice when he invests.

The persons getting a low rate of dividend would be proportionately hardest hit, taking it on a flat rate, on the example I have taken.

It would depend on the comparable prices of the cost of living index——

Taking the simple assumption, and applying it with an index showing dividends on the one hand and incomes and salaries on the other hand, when one goes above the other you apply the tax. The next assumption is that you apply the tax at the same rate to everyone: this is the assumption I am dealing with at the moment. In such a case, the persons getting a low rate of dividend would be, proportionally, hardest hit while those getting very big dividends would not be very much affected.

I understood the Minister to say that the low rate of dividend would not reach the taxable ceiling at all.

I am not saying that. If, on the other hand, it was decided to fix a norm for dividends corresponding to an increase in the wages and salary index, and to tax, say, at the rate of 20s in the £, anything above that norm would be penal and inequitable and would lead to a misallocation of capital, to say the least. It would ultimately necessitate setting different norms to take account of differences between individual companies and industries. Apart from the considerable administrative difficulties, it would also involve a degree of interference by the Government in the affairs and decisions of companies that I think certainly most members of the Fine Gael Party would view with some misgiving.

I do not suppose I need spell out certain other difficulties arising from the fact that a substantial amount of investment income accrues here from abroad and the operation of the tax on that would present enormous difficulties. Therefore, the panacea on which Deputy FitzGerald seems to rely so much is not a panacea at all. Even if we could overcome the difficulties I have mentioned and had had it in operation, I would repeat that in all those years it would have operated in only one year. Clearly, therefore, this is not the answer to an incomes policy.

Deputy Cruise-O'Brien has unfortunately left the House but since I have started to make the point perhaps I should continue to make it. At column 621, volume 249 of the Official Report, Deputy Cruise-O'Brien is reported as saying:

The Minister in whom we are asked to have confidence is the man who announced a policy with a blast of trumpets, then qualified it and then finally scrapped it, all in the space of a fortnight.

I have a question for Deputy Cruise-O'Brien and a number of other Deputies who made similar allegations. If that is true, if the policy was scrapped, why on earth have they been wasting the time of this House? If there is no policy what are they opposing? What have they been talking about at such length? Let us not fool ourselves. Either there is a policy which they are opposing, or there is not.

A different one, an entirely different one.

If that is what the Deputies want to say, let them say it but do not be pretending there is no policy on incomes and prices.

Political expediency.

We were opposing the philosophy of the Government. We realise it was nothing, of course.

That is an interesting point. It is interesting that Deputy O'Donovan should raise that because one thing which I found of great interest in this debate was what emerged from certain contributions from some Members of the Labour Party. Deputy Keating — and I think Deputy O'Connell tonight more or less took the same line — said that if the controls on prices and other incomes were satisfactory he would certainly support it. Indeed, I understood Deputy Keating to say the Labour Party would actively support a policy which would also be a restraint on incomes. I think Deputy Keating was being very honest when he said that. At the time he said it, I asked him did he realise that there were some of his colleagues who might not feel very happy about this because it seemed to involve an interference with the rights of trade unions about which we were hearing a great deal from the Labour benches.

Surely the Minister meant prices, not incomes?

No. Deputy Keating said that if the control were effective in regard to prices and other incomes the Labour Party would be prepared to support control on wages and salaries, and he was being perfectly logical in what he said.

I do not follow the Minister.

The Deputy did not sit in for 5½ hours.

The point is that, as I say, Deputy Keating was being very logical and consistent in what he said. When I drew his attention to the fact that some of his colleagues might be somewhat unhappy about this, as I say, interference with the rights of trade unions about which some of them had been speaking at great length and with considerable vehemence, he indicated that in the kind of society which he visualised there would be no problem with trade unions, that they would go along with this. You know the kind of society he means, do you not?

Quote Deputy Keating.

Deputy Keating's contribution to the debate was magnificent.

Are the Deputies saying I am misrepresenting him?

Quote Deputy Keating.

Is the Deputy saying I am misrepresenting Deputy Keating?

That is the rule of the House.

Who is saying I am misrepresenting him?

It is the rule of the House.

I am not quoting Deputy Keating.

The Minister is purporting to quote him.

The rule is that if I am quoting him I must give the reference.

The Minister is purporting to quote him.

Let the Minister tell us about the low standards in his own party about which he spoke some years ago.

I know this is all above Deputy L'Estrange's head but, nevertheless——

Finance is above the Minister's head and he has proved it so far.

I understand him because I realise the significance of what he was saying.

I read this speech.

Would Deputy O'Connell agree I am not misrepresenting him?

I read Deputy Keating's speech and I am a bit doubtful about the last part of what the Minister said. I agree that he interrupted him and asked him was he aware that we did not all agree.

Give the quotation and let us judge for ourselves.

Deputies who think there is anything wrong with it can look it up.

The Minister is not good at giving quotations.

I am not purporting to quote the Deputy.

What is the Minister purporting to do?

I am purporting to give the substance of his argument and Deputy O'Connell is not denying that I am giving it accurately. Is that not a fair statement?

Except the last part.

Where I said you know the kind of one it is. I agree that is my interpretation. We can all interpret it in our own way.

Will the Minister agree he made a magnificent contribution to the debate? It was very reasoned argument. I read it thoroughly and I do not think the Minister will contradict that.

I was hoping it would have been even better than it was, because he was the only Deputy from the Opposition benches who purported to approach the problem on the basis of saying: "Right, there is the problem. The Government want to approach it that way. We think it should be approached this way." He is the only one who tried to do that.

I thought I tried.

Deputy FitzGerald talked about what we should have done before or what he thought we should have done. Unfortunately, he missed some of what I said about his arguments.

About what the Government should have done instead of standing idly by.

I thought I made a little contribution about Government expenditure.

I am sure Deputy O'Donovan would not contend that even the most rigorous reduction in Government expenditure would solve our inflation problem. It would help, but it would not solve it.

It would help.

Deputy Desmond unfortunately is not with us.

He is very much with us.

Deputy Desmond made a fairly lengthy contribution in which it appeared that he was a very wise and knowing Deputy. He knew all about labour relations, all about economics, and he knew that I, as Minister for Finance, knew nothing about any of these and went at it like a bull in a china shop.

That is the inferiority complex.

I am quoting the Deputy.

That is a great disability for the Minister.

Did Deputy O'Connell read or hear Deputy Desmond?

I am sympathising with the Minister on that account.

Did he read or hear Deputy Desmond's contribution?

I read it thoroughly too.

Then he will not disagree that I am not misrepresenting him——

——when he said that I went at it like a bull in a china shop.

It is no reflection on the Minister. That is the point. With the Minister's inferiority complex he takes it as a reflection.

(Cavan): We would be more interested in what Deputy Haughey had to say.

(Interruptions.)

The Minister must be allowed to speak.

It is a pity he was not permitted to speak.

It is rather strange that Deputy O'Connell, I think trying to be as honest as possible, says in all seriousness: "He did say you went at it like a bull in a china shop but it was not meant to be a reflection." If words mean anything, what can we make of that statement?

They do not for the Minister's party.

(Interruptions.)

(Cavan): Deputy Aiken has not changed his mind. He still admires the Minister and thinks he is the right man.

One thing the Deputy and his colleagues need never worry about is that they will never suffer from Deputy Aiken's admiration.

That is no great loss, if I may say so.

In the course of his contribution, Deputy Desmond suggested that, in Britain, Mrs. Barbara Castle and Mr. Harold Wilson had — I think he said — at least more subtlety and more sensitivity than the Government here in introducing this type of legislation. He referred specifically to the Prices and Incomes Act, 1968, in Britain. He conveniently ignored the more restrictive 1966 and 1967 Acts.

I must confess I was somewhat taken aback by Deputy Desmond's choice of comparison. He must know that what we are proposing in this legislation here is far less drastic than what was introduced in Britain. In Britain there was an absolute freeze on pay from July, 1966, to December, 1966, including a freeze on agreements which had been made but not implemented. This was followed by periods of severe restraint and moderate restraint up to April, 1968, during which time there was a nil norm. The only increases which were allowed were exceptions to that norm. Then a ceiling of 3½ per cent was introduced from May, 1968. It is true that, following strong representations from the Irish Congress of Trade Unions, our Bill here contains at the moment no indication of the authorised maximum amount which may be conceded by employers without committing an offence, but the plain fact is that on 16th October last I made it clear that the figure the Government had in mind was 6 per cent or 24s a week, if that were greater, subject to an overall maximum of 36s a week. In other words, the Government here were prepared to agree to nearly twice the most favourable norm allowed at any stage in Britain.

In these circumstances, it is a little odd to find that the British practice is quoted as an argument against us and indeed we are told of their sensitivity and subtlety in dealing with it and our "bull in a china shop" approach. The distance we were prepared to go in the generality of cases means that there is little scope for providing for special cases, although even here the figures that I announced on the 16th October obviously favoured the lower paid workers. Furthermore, under this Bill it is possible to deal with certain cases where there were firm commitments or, subject to scrutiny by an independent body with cases where claims had been made before 16th October, 1970, for increases based on comparison with employees doing similar or analogous work. Deputy Desmond's supercilious approaoh seems to have little basis in fact.

Several Deputies, including Deputy Dr. O'Donovan, urged a cut in Government expenditure. I shall not include Deputy Dr. O'Donovan in what I have to say next — it might not be fair on him — but as regards other Deputies it is fair to say that it was a very unusual role for them as I am being constantly pressed to improve existing services and to introduce new services. I mentioned in the recent Supplementary Budget Statement that we have instructed all Departments and agencies that economies must be achieved even at the expense of dislocation and possible suspension of some services. However I should emphasise that pay is the biggest single item in current Government spending and restraint in incomes increases, apart from its beneficial effects on the economy generally, has a very important effect on expenditure by the State.

A number of Deputies referred to the increases in fares charged by CIE and in Post Office charges. They seemed to suggest that it was dishonest of the Government to have allowed these before the restraints were announced on 16th October. I notice that none of the Deputies who made this charge made the slightest suggestion as to how the Government should have dealt with this problem. There were other ways of dealing with it, I agree. I suppose we could have borrowed the money even to pay the current amount. This, I think, would be something which would not commend itself to any Deputy. We could have refused to pay the amounts of the pay increases or we could, I suppose, have sacked sufficient employees to save the money. None of these is a practical alternative. The only other course open would have been to increase taxation still further to make up these deficits. I would remind the House that, in the case of CIE, apart from the annual subvention provision had to be made in the Supplementary Budget for a further very substantial sum in addition to the fare increases imposed. This reflects clearly what all this problem is about. These two concerns are extremely labour intensive and therefore inflationary wage settlements affect them much more than a number of other concerns.

In exchanges which took place earlier this evenng between Deputy Dr. O'Connell and myself in regard to his allegation that restraint was being exercised under this Bill on workers only, I mentioned that we were also getting at some employers. This was when we were talking about people operating on a selfish basis. I do not know if it is generally realised but, if it is not, it is time it was realised that there are some employers whose position is that the wage content of what they have to pay out is relatively so small — it may be, say, 10 per cent — that, if the worst comes to the worst, there is no limit on the amount of increase they will pay rather than have a strike. This is a fact, and these people are just as dangerous in the context of inflation as the most exorbitant demand of the most militant union. In my view, each of them presents the same kind of threat to our economy and to the lower paid worker. It was in that context I made the statement that Deputy Dr. O'Connell was quoting.

Of course the Minister left out the fellow who is neither a worker nor an employer.

Like the Deputy.

If the Parliamentary Secretary were to work one-third of the hours I work in a day he would need——

We will know all about that in 1973.

1973? It is 1971. The Minister did not talk about the parasites in our society.

Such as?

I agreed with the Deputy that there were such.

But the Minister has done nothing there.

I do not agree with the Deputy on that.

Another important point that was raised in the debate related to section 22. This is a section which provides power to remove difficulties in bringing into operation or giving full effect to any provision of the Act.

What section is this?

Section 22.

Oh, yes. That is the one that says: "The Government shall by order...."

That is what I said. Would the Deputy like to pay a little attention now? There are a few things I want to say about this section. Firstly, I will confess that it is not the kind of section I like to see in any Bill.

I do not think the Supreme Court will like it either.

On the other hand, the most important job to be done by this Bill is to apply its provisions effectively. As the Parliamentary Secretary, Deputy Lemass, said, it is no use having this kind of Bill unless it has teeth. Deputies will see at a glance that this is a fairly complex and technical Bill. They will also remember that it had to be produced at considerable speed.

That is the understatement of the year.

Of course, if I said: "Oh no, we had ample time to prepare it" Deputies would say: "Ah, you were planning this all along." One cannot win.

We would say you were too late.

The fact is that it had to be prepared with great speed.

The Minister made a mess of it.

In view of the complexity of it and of the short time available for its preparation, it is a very satisfactory effort. Nevertheless, I have no illusions about the fact that in implementing a Bill of this nature and especially since its duration is for only one year or a little more——

That is a long time.

If it were to be amended when it was discovered that there were difficulties, it would be necessary to bring in a Bill which would have to go through all Stages in both Houses.

That might not be a bad thing.

That would not be a practical proposition if anything effective were to be done. I wish to draw attention to a point which was not adverted to by Deputies on the other side. It is that under section 23, that is the following section, any order made under this section 22 would, of course, have to be laid before each House of the Oireachtas in which event it could be debated and it could be annulled.

It could be carried in the same way as the Vote of Confidence motion in the Taoiseach was carried.

Then the provisions could be carried in this House. Therefore, that argument falls to the ground. I have explained to the House why it has been necessary to do it this way.

Is this not a very bad precedent?

Deputy Bruton is interrupting just as I was about to make a point.

The only point to be made is that the point will not cover the Deputy's question.

There is a precedent already.

Is it in the Emergency Powers Act?

Such precedent is in the Social Welfare Act of 1952. This Act contains a similar provision limited to its operation for the first year.

It is not a penal one?

We hope not, anyway?

Deputies can argue about some provisions of the Social Welfare Act——

It does not propose to fine somebody or to seize goods.

Is the Deputy saying that the 1952 Act has no provision for penalties, or is he saying that the extent of the penalties is the important point?

There is a big difference between what was proposed in that Act and what is proposed in this legislation, as the Minister knows.

I know that people who stood up and said this was unprecedented interference with constitutional rights, with the rights of the House and so on, did not know of this precedent in the 1952 Social Welfare Act. I am accepting that they were honest when they said these things but I say also that they certainly did not advert to section 23 which is a standard, normal section in any Bill.

I bet the Minister did not know either.

They talked about this as if the Minister and the Government could make any order they wished.

So it says here.

(Interruptions.)

The Minister is entitled to make his case.

I might go further and say that any order made under section 22 would also have to be within the terms of the Long Title of the Bill and the general purpose of the Bill or it could be set aside by the courts. Therefore, these various provisions limit the operation of any such orders very substantially. In the context of a Bill that must expire at the end of 1971 it is the only practical way of dealing with problems that can arise. I would have preferred that this section were not in the Bill, or that it were not in any Bill for that matter, but in the light of the practical difficulties I have outlined it cannot be avoided.

Would the section enable a sentence of five years' imprisonment to be substituted for £5,000?

I do not think so.

From what the Minister has said so far it seems to me that it would.

If that would fit in with the terms of the Long Title and the general purpose of the Bill, I suppose it could be so.

It is nice to know that that can be done by order.

It is nice to know also that such order must be laid before both Houses of the Oireachtas.

(Interruptions.)

What is the Deputy arguing about? He is making up arguments which, when examined, do not stand up. One of the Deputies on the Labour benches accused me of cowardice because I did not make provision in this Bill for putting workers in prison.

What the Deputy said was that the Minister was afraid to do so because of what happened before. He was not saying it should be done.

What he said was that the Minister for Finance and the Government were guilty of cowardice because they did not put into the Bill a provision to put workers in jail.

It is proposed instead to fine them £2,000 or £3,000.

In any case, the Minister is the yellowest member of the Cabinet.

We are getting the size of Deputy O'Leary gradually and I think we now have him sized up pretty well.

The Minister will have to look for his votes in Dublin North Central next time.

As I did the last time and as the Deputy will have to do next time if he is lucky.

We may be able to manage a few transfers.

The Deputy will get none from me. If I were Deputy O'Leary I would worry. I could give him secretly a little information about what is happening to his vote.

Is ex-Deputy Boland going in there?

Another point——

The Minister should be given a constituency somewhere in the western counties.

If the Deputy thinks I am going to leave it wide open for him like that, he is mistaken. The Deputy will find when he goes before the people of Dublin in 1973——

I shall be embarrassed by the number of votes I shall get.

That is what we heard last time.

I suppose 3,000 behind is not too bad after a lifetime's prevarication.

Deputy Desmond claimed that wages in most firms form only a small part of the total cost. As I mentioned earlier this is true of a small number of firms but it ignores the wage element and other costs such as bought-in materials. For the economy as a whole, the NIEC have pointed out that, for every 1 per cent rise in total money incomes which is not matched by a similar increase in real output, the price level rises by 0.6 per cent. That fact, which is a stated economic fact put forward by the NIEC, illustrates the fundamental difficulty we are in. It illustrates also the fundamental reason for this Bill. So many Opposition speakers have avoided that issue that I must comment on it.

It is no more than a piece of arithmetic.

It is a piece of arithmetic that shoves prices up. There is no good in Deputies coming in here and pretending that price control could keep down prices and wages could rise sky high. That is nonsense.

There would be no necessity for this if, as Minister for Industry and Commerce, the Minister had kept down prices.

How? I am quoting the figure given by the NIEC. Is the Deputy disputing that?

I am disputing the fact that the Minister made no attempt to control prices even after wage rounds.

If wages rise in excess of production, bringing for each 1 per cent increase an increase of 0.6 per cent in prices, how does the Deputy suggest that prices can be kept down in that context?

Why did the Minister not have public inquiries?

We did have, but they did not save us any money.

Debate adjourned.
The Dáil adjourned at 10.30 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Wednesday, 25th November, 1970.
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