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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 25 Nov 1970

Vol. 249 No. 13

Prices and Incomes (Temporary Provisions) Bill, 1970: Second Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

A persistent theme running through the Opposition speeches in this debate has been that workers are being discriminated against. This trend has been heightened and made even more inaccurate by repeated and misleading references to freezing wages and salaries. To call the proposals I announced on 16th October last for 6 per cent or a 36s. ceiling a freeze or standstill of wages is a complete abuse of language. Certainly, taken solely on economic grounds, it would have been a fair criticism to say the proposals went too far in permitting increases. The Bill itself allows more than was contemplated in my announcement of 16th October last. So far from discriminating against workers, the Government introduced this Bill because they believe that, in the interests of workers generally and particularly in the interests of the poorer and weaker sections of our society, the frightening rate of price increases we have been experiencing in recent times should be brought down significantly.

Experience has shown that if wages and salaries — which are the major elements in cost — increase at a rate which is greatly in excess of the rate of increase in output then price rises are inevitable. The effect which the spread of the maintenance strike settlement through the economy had on prices is there for all to see. One direct consequence of that inflation was — because of the fact that the Government is the major employer in the country — the necessity for substantially increased taxation.

There is a fundamental point here which has conveniently been glossed over by speakers from both Opposition parties and that is that, where you have incomes rising at a substantially faster rate than the rise in national productivity, inevitably you have price rises and no system of price control can avoid this. This is the fundamental question with which we are faced. To pretend that one can keep down prices without keeping down wages in some relation to increases in national productivity is either gross ignorance or a deliberate attempt to mislead our people. The Government had no choice in this matter but to intervene in the interest of everyone — wage and salary earners no less than others.

It is true that expectations have risen very high at present but it is also true, as I said in opening the debate, that many people now realise the futility of increases in money incomes of the kind we have been having in recent years which inevitably send the cost of living soaring. The trouble is that they fear that, in the absence of general restraint, moderation on their part will simply lose them their place in the queue to more selfish groups. This fear is itself an obstacle to fighting inflation. Under this Bill, however, it will be possible to go a long way towards ensuring that those who do exercise restraint will not find themselves losing out as a result.

I referred last night to some aspects of Deputy Keating's contribution to this debate. I want to make another reference or two to some of the things he said. One point he made, with which I thoroughly agree, is that the psychological climate is extremely important in dealing with the whole problem of inflation. I agree with him absolutely on that. I would point out that one advance we can claim to have made, already even before the passing of this Bill, is that we have substantially affected that psychological climate.

It is also important to realise that to make acceptable the kind of widespread control which is introduced in this Bill, right across the board, extending very widely in regard to prices for goods and services and professional fees, there has to be a suitable psychological climate. Many of the efforts we have been making so far have been directed towards ensuring that there is the psychological climate which makes this kind of control acceptable and possible.

I should also like to refer briefly to a point I touched on last night because I think it is of considerable interest, and that it will be of considerable interest to many people, that is, that both Deputy Keating and Deputy Dr. O'Connell in the course of their speeches said that, given certain circumstances, it was not contrary to the policy of the Labour Party but, on the contrary, was in accordance with the policy of the Labour Party, to have control over wages. It is very important that people should realise this because many of the Labour Party speakers——

The Minister is taking that completely out of context.

I went into this last night and Deputy O'Connell was here listening to me.

The Minister is taking it completely out of context.

Deputy Dr. O'Connell did not dispute that I was being accurate.

He did dispute it. He disputed the last thing the Minister said.

We are getting used to the Minister being dishonest by omission.

The Minister refused to quote.

One did not have to quote. When Deputy FitzGerald was speaking and when he was purporting to represent views expressed by members of this Government, did he quote in every instance? Of course he did not because his whole speech would have consisted of quotations.

When a Deputy purports to give someone else's views and is challenged he gives the quotation. That is the tradition of this House.

No. The point is that Deputy O'Connell agreed that I did not misrepresent either himself or Deputy Keating.

That is not accurate.

That is not correct.

If I may finish, he did say that the last sentence I said was——

For the record, the Minister is being grossly dishonest.

The last sentence I said was: "We know what kind of——"

The Deputy may not make such a remark that the Minister is being grossly dishonest.

Grossly dishonest.

The Deputy will withdraw that disorderly statement.

Will the Minister withdraw his dishonest statement?

The Deputy has made a remark and the Chair has asked the Deputy to withdraw it.

Will the Chair agree that if the records of the House prove that what I am saying is true——

The Chair will not agree with the Deputy. The Deputy will withdraw that remark.

Will the Chair send for the records of the House?

Will the Deputy please withdraw the statement? In the interests of order will the Deputy withdraw the statement?

Grossly dishonest.

Then I will have to ask the Deputy to leave the House.

Mr. J. Lenehan

He has not the guts to leave.

The Deputy called for a House.

The Minister has not the guts to read the quotation.

Mr. J. Lenehan

I am here longer than Deputy Cluskey.

Will the Deputy please withdraw the disorderly statement he made?

With respect, Sir, may I ask the Chair to check the records of the House to find out whether my statement is accurate that the Minister is being deliberately grossly dishonest?

The Deputy has made a disorderly statement that the Minister is deliberately dishonest. That is not in order in this House.

The Chair used the word "deliberately". I used the word "grossly".

The Deputy also used the word "deliberately". If the Deputy says he did not use the word "deliberately"——

As far as I can recall, Sir, I said the Minister was being grossly dishonest.

That is my recollection.

Mr. J. Lenehan

He is a prevaricator, not a liar.

If the Deputy did not make the statement then we will forget the matter.

Will the Minister now quote?

This recent performance by Deputy Cluskey is not in the least surprising. It is in accordance with what we have been having for quite some time from the Opposition parties. One can understand his perturbation because there are two members of his party who have the honesty to say what they said.

If they are honest that is more than we can say for the Minister.

At least one of those two members——

It is more than can be said for the Minister.

——was here when I made the statement and agreed that I did not misrepresent either of them.

The Minister is taking it out of context and he knows that.

(Interruptions.)

Would Deputies allow the Minister to conclude?

I am glad that Deputy Cluskey has made such a fuss about this because I hope it will ensure that more attention is directed than would otherwise have been directed to the statements made by those two Labour Party Deputies to the effect that it is not contrary to the Labour Party policy, given certain circumstances, to have control over wages.

(Interruptions.)

The Deputy knows as well as I do that they said that and so does Deputy FitzGerald.

Will the Minister quote the records of the House?

I do not have to quote.

Because it is there on the records of the House and Deputy O'Connell agreed that that was so. The Deputy can try to wriggle his way out of that.

On a point of order——

If the Deputy wants it, my party will produce a pamphlet in the by-election giving the quotations to which I am referring. Is that what he wants?

The Minister was referring to what was said in this House.

If that is what he wants I will do it.

Do it now.

The full quotation.

On a point of order, last night the Minister purported to quote certain things and when he was challenged for the details he did not give them. Would the Minister now quote what was said here so that we can have more information and less heat? Too much heat is being engendered.

As I said, I will give consideration to the publication of the quotations from the records of this House.

Give the quotation here in the House.

I know Deputies are concerned and they are quite right to be concerned because these quotations will show up the dishonesty we have been having in this debate.

Is the Minister speaking as Minister for Finance or as a party hack?

Mr. J. Lenehan

What are you? You are only a few months down off the trees.

Some of the Deputies on my side of the House find it a little difficult to understand how people on this side are party hacks but people over there are politicians — some of them are even statesmen.

Mr. J. Lenehan

He jumped down off the trees in the Congo a few years ago. Monkeys.

I think it would not be unfair to say in regard to Deputy Keating's contribution which, as I said last night, was the only one from the Opposition benches that made any attempt to approach the problem on the basis that it is a problem facing us today and considering what should be done about it——

I am coming to Deputy FitzGerald. He need not worry about that.

I am waiting patiently.

I hope the Minister will quote him accurately.

It would be true to say that the various points he put forward could not be regarded even by him as anything like a complete answer to the problem we are facing. It would suggest to me, at any rate, that it would not seem unfair to summarise his argument as amounting to this, that we should nationalise inflation which, of course, does not solve it.

Deputy Dowling raised certain questions to which I want to give replies. He asked, first of all, if there was any provision in this Bill which would prevent directors from evading the restrictions by way of increased expense accounts. I want to draw his attention to section 2 of the Bill which makes it an offence for an employer to vary any term or condition of employment except to the extent permitted by the Bill and the definition of an employee in section 1 includes a director. This would cover a reward of any kind, whether it is in money or money's worth, for work done. The Bill would not, however, preclude recoupment to an employee of extra expenses actually incurred by him on his firm's business.

Deputy Dowling also asked, in regard to professional fees, whether some professional people might endeavour to make up for the restriction on their fees by requiring their clients or patients to make extra visits to them. There is nothing in the Bill which would prevent this but I think it can seriously be doubted whether this is likely to become a serious problem since in many instances the bringing of clients or patients back for more visits could very well mean a reduction in the total number of clients or patients which the professional person concerned could deal with in the time at his disposal. Therefore, I do not think this is likely to be a serious danger.

Deputy Dowling also asked how charges for repair work would be controlled. This is a matter for administrative arrangement to be determined by the Minister for Industry and Commerce or any other authorised Minister depending on the particular item which is involved in the light of conditions obtaining at any particular stage. Under the Prices Acts he may inquire into and, if he considers it desirable, fix the maximum charge for this kind of work.

Deputy Dowling also asked whether apprentices and trainees would be able to get the increases provided for in their conditions of service, including advancement to full adult worker rate. I think he had in mind that some people are on incremental scales. I should like to make it clear that if there was a recognised scale of pay for such employees in existence on 16th October last they will be able to advance along it in the ordinary way and get the full adult worker rate in due course. The Bill does not restrict that.

Finally, Deputy Dowling talked about the restrictions on conditions, including sick pay arrangements. It is clear, of course, that not to leave a restriction in this regard could leave a very wide loophole in the Bill and I could not contemplate that. I think Deputy Dowling anticipated this because what he suggested was that in the case of a firm which at present has no arrangements whatever about sick pay it should be possible through the Bill to allow for the introduction of a sick pay scheme. I think this is not an unreasonable approach and I intend, on the Committee Stage, to introduce an amendment designed to allow the introduction of sick pay schemes in cases where no sick pay schemes whatever exist at present.

Would the Minister consider the same with regard to pension schemes?

I will consider it.

Schemes which have been negotiated over a long period and have just been fixed up?

I know there are some difficulties attaching to it but I will consider it.

Is the Minister aware that this Bill is being used as if it were an Act? A Bill which has not passed the Second Reading in this House is now being used, even by officials of the Department of Labour and the Labour Court——

Hear, hear.

——to stop the negotiation of wages.

I am so aware. Of course this is inevitable by reason of the fact that the Bill is expressed to operate from 16th October.

But it is not an Act, it is only a Bill.

I agree.

Mr. J. Lenehan

The Housing Bill was retrospective.

You do not understand. Stick to the birds and the bees.

Is the Minister saying that officials of the Department of Labour are acting under instruction in recognising this as legislation?

No, I did not say that.

But the Minister is aware of what is happening and obviously condoning it.

I have had the experience in the Labour Court.

What I am saying is that I am aware of the fact that various people are naturally having regard to the terms of this Bill in any negotiations that are going on at present because they are aware that the Bill is expressed to operate from 16th October.

I do not want to interrupt the Minister but if somebody gives an increase after 16th October it must operate until this Bill becomes law and there is not a thing anyone can do about it.

That might be so but obviously people who did it might well be getting themselves into serious difficulty and they are wise to think about it now.

You cannot punish somebody for something that is not a breach of the law.

These interruptions will have to cease.

As a matter of clarification, is the Minister saying that what we are now having is retrospective legislation?

If the Deputy wants to say that, of course he can say it but I have not said any such thing.

Is the Minister saying it?

I have not said any such thing.

Is the Minister implying it?

The Deputy got a chance to make his own speech. Do not put words into my mouth.

You are even dishonest by omission. It is incredible.

(Interruptions.)

The need to curb inflation is accepted by everyone or almost everyone. The Opposition parties in the course of this debate have been very busy reminding us of the numerous warnings which they gave from time to time about the dangers of inflation and the need to halt it. I do not think I need to add anything to that except to point out that the Government did exactly the same thing: they emphasised repeatedly that if voluntary efforts failed there would be no alternative to Government action.

This action against inflation is not an attack on the living standards of workers, as was alleged. Neither is it intended as an infringement of any person's rights but it is a battle against ideas and attitudes. Inflationary views are daily becoming more deep-rooted and widespread so that there are now many people who have come to accept rising prices as a normal feature of everyday life. More dangerous is the belief that such inflation is harmless. These are the attitudes which we must fight and destroy before they do untold damage to our economy because damage us they will and I do not think there should be any mistaking that. Prolonged inflation of the kind which we have experienced in the past two years would lead to economic stagnation, unemployment, increased emigration and great hardship for the poorer sections of our community just as surely and as inevitably as night follows day.

I am aware that there are some people who will not share this view. There are always the privileged few who may well profit by inflation. These minorities are to be found in all sectors whether they be employers or property owners who can seize opportunities for quick profits or workers who are in a strong position to exploit the need for their services. I make this point, first, to emphasise that inflation cannot be explained on the basis of a class struggle. For that matter, neither is it a problem of capitalist countries alone. The socialist states have proved to be equally vulnerable.

The second reason is to draw attention to this conflict of interest between the fortunate groups who profit from inflation and the less fortunate majority who do not. We may expect that those who in this way stand to lose from the ending of inflation will oppose our action but this opposition should be seen clearly for what it is, an attempt to sustain an unwarranted privilege at the expense of the community.

With these few exceptions there is a widespread acceptance both in this House and throughout the country that inflation should be effectively controlled. Any general criticism is not aimed at the results we seek but rather is it directed at the measures which were taken. One query that was raised in this regard relates to timing. It has been asked whether it is necessary to act at this stage. One line of attack by Fine Gael was that we should have acted sooner. The Government view was — and is — that we should not intervene until all reasonable prospects of voluntary corrective action had been explored.

The danger signs had been growing during the past 18 months. During that period we pointed repeatedly to the problems which would be brought about by prolonged inflation. We spelled out the kind of action that was needed to end this inflation. During the past few months I have stated in this House and throughout the country — indeed, the Taoiseach and other members of the Government have done likewise — that the need for Government action was imminent. It is true that we could have acted sooner but so long as any prospect of a voluntary incomes agreement remained we were reluctant to do so. Also there was the further point which I mentioned earlier today: that the psychological climate necessary to enable such intervention to be successful was not in existence until virtually everybody had realised what was happening and the grave danger that was facing us if this situation were to continue.

The alternative criticism of the Government's timing advanced by the ICTU and the Labour Party is that we have acted too soon. The contention is that there are still two months to go before any key pay agreements expire and that this period provides sufficient time for the Government, the trade unions and the employers to reach voluntary agreement. This possibility was one which we had considered very carefully but we rejected it because there seemed no prospect that it would produce a satisfactory result. The statement published by the Congress on 15th of October makes clear the reasons for this pessisism on our part. Apart from seeking pay rises equal to about 25 per cent for industrial workers or 20 per cent for craftsmen, Congress laid particular stress on the need to guarantee these and other pay rates against price increases. To achieve this result Congress sought a guaranteed pay increase for any rise in the cost of living.

This is the dilemma and this is the fatal circular reasoning in the Congress position. They pointed out that there is a gap to bridge between the present situation and the time when workers can be brought to accept with confidence and without inequity, guaranteed real wage increases which may be lower in money terms than those which have been negotiated in recent settlements. This illustrates precisely what the problem is and why action taken at the time we took it was essential because if this is the position, and I accept fully the statement of Congress that it is, there is no way in which a voluntary agreement that would curb inflation could be reached.

To give pay rises that would meet these expectations would mean not only that prices would keep on rising but that they would rise at an even sharper rate and this in turn would make it even more difficult to persuade unions that they should accept smaller rises at some later date. If there is a gap now between what workers expect and what the economy can afford by way of pay rises, there would be a greater gap if we were to act in the manner suggested by Congress. These inflationary expectations and attitudes are not confined to workers. They are shared also by some employers. I touched on this matter last night. In our view there was the distinct danger that if we delayed action to enable further discussions to be held, some groups would have gone ahead and negotiated substantial pay increases. Our experience with regard to earlier wage rounds has been that once some group, however small, or however unique their circumstances may be, secure increases, these increases become the basis for claims and settlements by others. It was to prevent such danger that we decided to act quickly and to forestall such a possibility.

I shall come now to the measures themselves. I do not think I need deal with them in detail because I already dealt with them in some detail in opening this debate. However, I should like to comment on one controversial section. This is the one relating to the decision to adopt a statutory limit of 6 per cent for new pay increases up to the end of 1971. We were aware that this would be an unpopular act and we examined several alternative courses of action before finally reaching our decision. There were several considerations which led us to act as we have acted.

Is the Minister dealing with some measure in the Bill?

I am dealing with the whole background that arises.

I thought the Minister said he would deal with the measures.

There is a section in the Bill — I cannot remember the exact phraseology — that the addition which may be allowed to basic wages is the amount which will be prescribed by Government order. I am dealing with the background to it.

But the Minister has mentioned 6 per cent.

Many speakers referred to the 6 per cent and the 36/- ceiling.

It would be unfortunate if anything which the Minister says now should interfere with the discussion that is taking place this afternoon. If the Minister starts harping again on the 6 per cent, that is likely to happen. I thought that was gone.

The Deputy should not be under any illusions about the situation. I made clear the circumstances in which that change was made and if the Deputy misunderstood, I am sorry. I want to make the position quite clear.

The maximum of 6 per cent?

Yes, and as to why we arrived at that figure.

So it is a matter of having any Ford car you wish so long as it is black.

The Deputy may take it that way but that is not how I am looking at the situation. The change made was made at the request of Congress and not at our request.

But the Minister is saying there was no change.

I am not saying any such thing. Did the Deputy not hear me? Other speakers have referred to the 6 per cent——

As having been taken out.

The Minister is saying now that he wants to make his position clear.

Since other speakers have referred to the 6 per cent, I see no reason why I should not refer to it also.

If the Minister is saying there is still a 6 per cent a lot of time has been wasted this afternoon.

I did not say that.

What did the Minister say?

It was a pity the Deputy did not listen.

There is no use listening to the Minister because he changes his mind every ten minutes.

If the Deputy does not wish to listen, can he not go out?

Then he can stay in but if he does not like what he hears he should stay quiet.

The Minister should not tell anybody to get out.

What I said was that if the Deputy does not like what he hears, he can go out. Is he trying to misrepresent me on that also?

The Minister should try to be consistent for at least ten minutes anyway.

As I said, we were aware that this proposal regarding the 6 per cent would be unpopular and that we had examined several alternative courses of action. The most important consideration we had in mind in arriving at that conclusion was the need to bridge the gap between expectations and reality, that which I have already referred to. Originally we had hoped that the employer-labour conference would agree to a moderate level of pay increases which would operate for the 13th round. We recognised that even moderate pay rises would mean further price increases during 1971 but the expectation was that these rises would be at a slower rate than in the present year.

As we know, a voluntary agreement was not reached but, most disturbing, there were signs that the inflationary mentality was becoming more deep-rooted. When the Congress statement confirming this view was published we realised that the overriding necessity was to destroy these inflationary attitudes. To obtain this result a dramatic reduction in the rate of inflation would need to be brought about as quickly as possible. It might seem that one way of achieving this would be to allow no rise in prices whatsoever during 1971, but a price freeze is not a practical proposition. One reason is that we import many items and we cannot control the price at which other countries would sell to us.

The second and perhaps the more important reason is that it is just not possible for many firms to pay wage increases and to hold their prices steady at the same time. I want to emphasise this because many people seem to believe that it is possible to have a price freeze at present. They are being encouraged in this belief by no less a person than Deputy Corish, the leader of the Labour Party. But he and they are mistaken. To impose a price freeze in conditions where wages and other costs are rising could simply mean that many firms would quickly go bankrupt and close down. If Deputy Corish inquires he will find out that a number of unions, as well as employers, have pressed to have prices increased because of this very reason.

Deputy Corish need not rely solely on my word for this. He can ask some of the Opposition Deputies, like Deputy Donegan, for instance, who spoke here. Deputy Donegan has referred to this on a number of occasions in this House, particularly on July 28th last. I think Deputy Corish knows this.

The Minister has given his ideas on how wages and incomes could be frozen. Now, would he tell us what his idea of price control is?

I have dealt with that at some length before.

The Minister did not.

The point I am dealing with now is this: to suggest that there can be a price freeze is wrong; it just cannot be done for the reason I have mentioned. I think Deputy Corish really appreciates the point I am making.

Having said that, would the Minister tell us what he means by price control in this Bill?

I presume the Deputy has read the Bill and he knows what it proposes to do.

You already have a Prices Bill but that did not operate.

It operated but not on the wide scale that is operating here. As I said earlier, to make such a provision acceptable you have to have a certain psychological climate, which we have now. I do not want to repeat myself but to suggest that you can by some system of price control prevent increases in prices when wages are rising above the level of productivity is simply not true. This is demonstrated time after time in every country in the world. It just cannot happen.

The Minister is saying it is possible to control wages and incomes. Has he not said that?

Now, would he tell us what he intends to do about prices?

I have dealt with that and the Bill deals with how it will be done. The point I am trying to get across is this: to say that if prices cannot be frozen then there should be a free-for-all in wages is just looking for disaster. It is what has been happening to us. It means that prices go higher and higher; and no system of price control can prevent it happening, unless you are prepared to put thousands of people out of work. This is the point I was making. There are quite a number of unions who made representations for price increases the same as employers because they knew if the price increases were not granted their members would be put out of work.

I accept that Deputy Corish means well when he advocates a price freeze and that in doing so he is seeking to protect workers' living standards but, you know, good intentions are not enough. I, for one, could not have any confidence in a party which advocated such a misguided economic policy. I believe the Government's approach to this matter is a practical and a realistic one. Our price controls are designed to ensure that any price rises which take place are needed to meet unavoidable increases in cost and that they will not provide inflated income or profits to any group. That is the basic approach to price control but the curb on incomes is essential to complement those price controls. I have explained at some length why the two have to be linked together.

I am aware that the Irish Congress of Trade Unions are opposed to any statutory curbs on pay. I am aware that they are pointing to past price increases as a justification for future pay rises. I do not doubt that in acting as they are doing they are seeking to promote the well-being of their members but I must say that I think they are misguided in this. There is no scope for wage rises of the size necessary to meet their views. Such pay rises could not be paid from profits, because in most cases profits would be totally inadequate, nor can they be paid by rising prices because price levels for many of our export products are already dangerously high and any increases would simply mean firms losing markets and workers losing their jobs. Again, I regret to say that Congress and others are encouraged in this mistaken belief by Deputy Corish and other members of his party.

He need not rely on what I say to refute his views. Perhaps I could refer him to Deputy FitzGerald, the Fine Gael spokesman, who wrote in the Irish Times on September 22nd, 1970:

If ... wages and salaries were raised again substantially in 1971, as a result of a further major wage round, the gap between our labour costs and those of other countries could be widened irretrievably, and to a degree that would make it impossible for us to compete either at home or abroad at existing currency parities. No one examining the figures in these tables can be in any doubt as to the seriousness of our situation or as to the vital importance of securing a pause or slowing down in income increases in the year ahead. Each individual and each negotiating group can, of course, ignore this ... why should they make the sacrifice — let someone else carry the burden. But what neither individuals nor negotiation groups will be able to do is to avoid the consequences of further wage inflation.

I did not think Deputy FitzGerald made such an impression on the Minister. You immediately rushed off to get the Bill drafted.

At least he quoted me, not some of the Deputy's party.

It is fair to say that this article by Deputy FitzGerald which I have quoted suggests that at most a moderate wage rise should be awarded but that, better still, there should be no further increases. A month later, on October 14th, in the Irish Times again, Deputy FitzGerald goes further in favouring a total freeze on further pay rises and I quote:

The disparity between labour costs here and elsewhere created by excessive increases in income here has not yet passed a tolerable level ... but one further push will be enough to shove us beyond this brink, with incalculable results. We have never been so near the edge before... If we go beyond marginal adjustments designed to meet anomalies arising out of the fact that some groups do not have phased agreements providing for increases in 1971, and indulge in a further general wage round, the deflation then required to cut back demand could leave past deflations such as those of 1952 and 1956 in the shade.

Good stuff that.

I am sure Deputy Corish would agree that on the basis of this last quotation Deputy FitzGerald would regard our 6 per cent ceiling as over-generous rather than repressive.

No. I did not suggest cutting back to 6 per cent. I suggested 10 per cent and that those people who did not get that increase would be treated as anomalies and get that but no more.

That is what I am saying. In those circumstances a general rise of 6 per cent could be regarded as excessive.

No, I would not think so, because you will notice I was in favour of letting this increase go ahead up to 10 per cent, that the people who were not getting that increase should be treated as anomalies, but that there should be no additional round in the course of the year.

I shall not go further with that dispute, but I think what is beyond dispute is that no responsibly informed person seriously could advocate a continuation of unbridled pay increases in present circumstances, and for a major political party to do so is in my view a totally irresponsible act——

Which party?

——and one which forfeits any right for their views to be taken seriously.

Which party?

On the basis of what was said in this debate it would be both parties; on the basis of what was said inside and outside the House, the Labour Party.

Let the Minister quote the remarks in relation to unbridled increases.

Was there one speaker from the Fine Gael benches in this debate who said: "Yes, wages should be controlled, and they should be controlled at this level," any level? Was there one speaker from the Fine Gael benches who said that?

I said it at some length.

In this debate?

Yes, indeed. I have it in front of me.

The Deputy spoke about what should have been done in 1965.

And what should be done at this stage. I am simply asking the Minister to quote.

I cannot quote what the Deputy did not say.

Let the Minister just quote what was said. He spoke about parties advocating unbridled increases.

The Deputy got his chance to make his speech.

Where in this debate were these unbridled increases advocated and by whom?

The whole point I have been establishing here is that no reasonably responsible person could contemplate or support a situation in which there would be a continuation of the unbridled increases without any relationship to increases in national productivity which we have had in the last few years.

Is that not what the Irish Congress of Trade Unions stand for? They did not suggest unbridled increases.

I have dealt with their suggestions and I am now dealing with Fine Gael.

Let there be no more misrepresentation. The Minister should quote what people said in this House.

I am getting tired of Deputy FitzGerald, not just in this debate but in lots of others, coming in here and trying to parse and analyse words in order to make out that people on this side of the House are not telling the truth. He now indulges in the same tactics as were being indulged in by Deputy Cluskey, trying to pretend that things which were said and admitted to were not said, that they are inaccurate.

Let the Minister quote what was said.

I do not have the report because it is not available. The Deputy was here last night and he heard Deputy John O'Connell saying——

That you were not telling the truth.

Is that the Deputy's version of what happened last night, because if it is, it illustrates clearly the difference between us, and I am glad there is that difference?

I will keep calling for quotations if the Minister misrepresents us.

I suppose Deputy FitzGerald, in the course of his speech in this debate, or any other debate, did not misrepresent our views or make every effort to quote the views on which he wanted to elaborate. I quoted a moment ago articles written by Deputy FitzGerald and he tries to make out they mean something else, because it does not suit him in this debate.

On the contrary, I merely pointed out that the Minister misrepresented what he has just read.

The Minister does not need notes. He can be inaccurate without them.

I know Deputies opposite do not like it, but they had better get wise to the fact that when they speak in this House either briefly or at great length, as some of them have done, and when they endeavour to misrepresent everything that was done by this Government and to drag in all sorts of irrelevancies to this debate, we will not take it lying down.

If we misrepresented what the Government did, they would be very lucky.

The Minister is entitled to make his reply to the debate.

They do not like it, but they will get it anyway. I will give quotations when I feel like giving them. I will not be dictated to by Deputy FitzGerald or any other Deputy, except the Chair, as to how I conduct myself in this House. When Deputy FitzGerald was opening his speech he was very concerned because I had referred to the Prices and Incomes Bill as being in the long-term interest of the community, and he was at pains to emphasise that it was the short-term problems which were paramount at this time. Then what did we get from him? We got a historical account of the rise and fall of the divided equalisation tax and of the role which such a tax would pay in a long-term incomes policy. In this respect at least he was consistent with other Fine Gael speakers in that they, like Deputy FitzGerald, avoided the actual problems before us. Of course he did manage some remarks on the current situation, but these largely consisted of criticising the Government's timing of events and expressing his inability to understand the need for continuing with the legislation while the employer-labour talks were still in session.

I should have thought that two reasons for pressing ahead with the legislation would have been obvious to Deputy FitzGerald. The first is, of course, that not all wage and salary agreements are covered by the employer-ICTU talks, so that even if an acceptable voluntary agreement is produced by these bodies, there still remains the need for mechanism to ensure that other groups will move in line with such an agreement. The second reason is that any postponement of the legislation would have left a period within which some groups might have reached inflationary wage agreements with employers. As the Deputy knows, if that were to happen it would become much more difficult to secure moderation elsewhere. The Government believe it is necessary to retain the starting date of 16th October and, consequently, to have legislation operative from that date at the earliest possible moment.

Does the Minister know how many wage and salary rises have been stopped since then?

I could not say, but according to complaints——

Have there been any increases in prices?

——made earlier, some have been interfered with.

Quite a number. The Labour Court officers say they do not know what to do because they have a Bill before them which they have been told is law. This is the first time I have ever heard of a Bill which has not passed the Second Stage being considered as law.

I do not think that is what they were told.

I am saying that is what they think.

The Minister admitted he knew the Labour Court officers were doing this.

Deputy Cluskey is a little out of his depth.

In trying to follow the Minister's line, I agree.

Are prices tied from the 16th October, the same as wages?

People who increase prices without permission after 16th October are running the same risks as people who negotiate wage increases.

It is a very narrow risk. The Minister knows that prices have gone up since 16th October.

Wages are not allowed to be increased but apparently prices are.

Deputy FitzGerald could not understand why we had to press ahead with this legislation while labour-employer talks were still going on. I regard Deputy FitzGerald's remarks on this matter as an extraordinary turnabout from a statement he made elsewhere. By asking why we are pressing ahead with the legislation he is suggesting that the Government have acted too soon and too severely. Apparently there is ample time for employer-labour discussions and it does not matter if a voluntary agreement were reached at figures in excess of 6 per cent. That is the implication of what he is saying——

No, I am not saying that.

——as to the reasons why we have to press ahead. If the Deputy thinks about it he will see that is true. It is not true that workers are being asked to bear an unfair share of the burden. They are being asked to exercise restraint during the period of this Bill.

They are being told they have to; they are not being asked anything.

A democratic society depends on whether people are prepared to do what the law says they should do. What workers are being asked to do, in common with other sections of the community, is to limit their desire for higher wages to a level which accords with the realities of our economic situation. The Government recognise this is not an easy task. Because big increases have taken place in the past and big figures have been bandied about in recent months it is difficult for people to accept that their real income can only rise by 3 per cent per annum. Impatience and reluctance in face of such figures are quite understandable. We know we have done better than that in previous years and we are confident we can do better in the future, but not every year can be a golden year. The path of progress is not smooth; it has many bumps and the occasional detour. To regard temporary difficulties as an economic collapse, which is what Deputy Corish said recently——

I said "collapse"?

I think the Deputy said "economic collapse". I think he was talking in terms of the economy.

I said "collapse"?

(Interruptions.)

In their attempts at a critique of the Government's prices and incomes policy Deputy Cosgrave and other Fine Gael speakers dealt at length with what did happen or should have happened in 1965 or 1969. These historical incursions do not offer the people a single clue as to how Fine Gael would tackle the problem. This attitude is characteristic of Fine Gael. They are ever eager to deal with everything except the matter in hand. Fine Gael's prices and incomes policy is the great ghost story of the seventies. Everyone has either heard about it or knows someone who has heard about it, but no one has yet seen it.

We shall send the Minister a copy.

We have heard so much about it that our curiosity has been aroused. The public have a right to expect Fine Gael to unveil this famous prices and incomes policy and explain how it will operate.

Apart from a few uncertain notions about their method of dealing with dividends, we do not know what Fine Gael would do about the problem of wages, salaries, and other incomes. We have had a great deal of waffle. We have had some talk about the dividends equalisation tax which I dealt with last night but we have not heard one word about what Fine Gael would do in the present situation.

One thing which emerged in the course of contributions made by Opposition Deputies is that they are not prepared, in a serious and responsible manner, to deal with the national problems which face us. The people are not being well served by this negative type of Opposition who does not dare to present an alternative policy. When I interjected during the debate I was told: "This is your job", and of course they are dead right. As long as the Opposition fail to offer a policy, as long as they refuse every invitation and every urging to reveal how they would deal with the problem, and as long as this kind of ineffectual and blathering opposition goes on, it will remain the job of the Fianna Fáil Party, a party with a real policy, real guts and real discipline, to press on with this nation's business.

Notice taken that 20 Members were not present; House counted, and 20 Members being present,

Deputy Cosgrave indicated that in his view our present inflation is mainly created by excessive Government expenditure. I should like to underline that.

Did the Minister say Dr. Whitaker or Deputy Cosgrave said that?

I said Deputy Cosgrave, who is a Member of this House.

It is funny that Dr. Whitaker said the same thing in the papers today.

I should like to underline this for the members of the Labour Party, some of whom seem to be aspiring to membership of a coalition with Fine Gael. Apart from being somewhat naïve, I think Deputy Cosgrave charged that excessive Government spending is also dishonest.

Is Dr. Whitaker dishonest, too?

Deputy Cosgrave believes——

On a point of order. Is it in order for a Minister to refer to another Member as dishonest?

The Chair was about to point out generally to both sides of the House that the use of the word "dishonest" has been regarded on many occasions as being unparliamentary. I say this for the benefit of all Members of the House.

I withdraw the epithet.

Dr. Whitaker will be relieved.

Dr. Whitaker is not a member of this House. Deputy Cosgrave is. Deputy FitzGerald need not try to make out that the case made by Deputy Cosgrave is the same case as that made by Dr. Whitaker.

It sounded very like it, as the Minister stated it.

This fits in with the Deputy's usual misunderstanding which, nowadays, occurs with more and more regularity. As far as this claim of Deputy Cosgrave is concerned, it is, as I say, naïve but, if Deputy Cosgrave believes that we are spending too much, then I think he should be specific. Let him tell us are we spending too much on houses. Are we spending too much on schools? Are we spending too much on health services or on social welfare benefits? Are we spending too much on industry, on agriculture and on tourism? Deputy Cosgrave should tell us.

On arms purchases.

He should also tell the Irish people and the Labour Party on which of these items Fine Gael would spend less than we are spending.

"State spending spree is rapped". Mr. Cosgrave? No, Dr. Whitaker.

Deputy Cosgrave should tell the Irish people and the Labour Party on which of these items we are spending too much and what expenditure he thinks should be stopped.

Illegal arms purchases financed by public money.

If that is the best answer Deputy FitzGerald can make it shows how poor a case he has. When specific items are debated here the Opposition normally complain bitterly that we are spending too little. It is easy to be a big spender when all you have to spend is words. The Opposition have plenty of them.

The Minister is not short of words either.

The Minister is replying to a very lengthy debate.

He is doing a great deal of talking without saying very much.

Let Deputy Cosgrave tell us under which heading the Government are spending too much and, if he does that, he will at least merit being taken seriously. Perhaps I should not blame Deputy Cosgrave too much because, when all is said and done, his contribution is no more than typical of the nonsense which consistently and persistently has characterised his Party.

And the Central Bank.

People who read the newspapers may well question whether Deputy Cosgrave any longer speaks for the Fine Gael Party. We are entitled to ask whether his views really represent Fine Gael thinking.

Nobody called him a felon setter.

The Minister must be allowed to make his reply without interruption.

Those who plan to replace Deputy Cosgrave and install instead a man who left politics some time ago should tell us now what their economic policy is.

This is sheer hallucination.

How would the "Just Society" man deal with a real live inflationary problem? How would Fine Gael cope with a down-to-earth situation, inevitably involving some unpopularity, a situation that could not be conjured away by high-sounding phrases?

One problem affecting the Labour and Fine Gael Opposition is that, however poor they may be as theorists, in practice they are a disaster. One would never think, listening to the arrogantly delivered nonsense coming from the other side of the House, that the speakers themselves were members, or supporters, of a Government that brought this country to its knees, that forced people to abandon their homes in Dublin and in other cities and towns throughout the country and to flee in record numbers overseas.

The country is on its back at the moment.

The economic record of Fine Gael and its allies is one of appalling muddle and unparalleled incompetence. It is a record of spineless toadying for public favour, leading to inevitable disaster. The governmental monuments of the Fine Gael and Labour Parties are wrecked enterprises, empty homes and an increase in the population of Canada. There are many other illustrations I could give to point out the contradictory statements made by Opposition speakers, but I believe there is no need to prove further the essential point that there is no coherent economic policy held by either of the Opposition parties or, if there is, they have concealed it successfully, not only from the nation and the House but also from the members of their own parties. What we have are a series of individual contributions, some of which make sense and some of which were nonsense. We have had support for and opposition to just about every shadow of a prices and incomes policy. This debate has been typical of the Opposition exercise of backing every horse in the race. Of course, somebody is sure to win, but I will leave it to Deputy Steve Coughlan to advise his colleagues on the Labour benches and their allies, or alleged allies, in the Fine Gael Party of the odds involved in this policy of backing every horse; I do not think they will like the advice he will give them.

(Interruptions.)

It is customary in this House for the Chair to be accorded the opportunity of putting the question in silence.

I wish Government Deputies would take note.

Question put.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 70; Níl, 41.

  • Aiken, Frank.
  • Allen, Lorcan.
  • Andrews, David.
  • Barrett, Sylvester.
  • Brady, Philip A.
  • Brennan, Joseph.
  • Briscoe, Ben.
  • Brosnan, Seán.
  • Browne, Patrick.
  • Browne, Seán.
  • Burke, Patrick J.
  • Carter, Frank.
  • Carty, Michael.
  • Childers, Erskine.
  • Colley, George.
  • Collins, Gerard.
  • Connolly, Gerard C.
  • Gibbons, James.
  • Gogan, Richard P.
  • Haughey, Charles.
  • Healy, Augustine A.
  • Herbert, Michael.
  • Hillery, Patrick J.
  • Hilliard, Michael.
  • Hussey, Thomas.
  • Kenneally, William.
  • Kitt, Michael F.
  • Lalor, Patrick J.
  • Lemass, Noel T.
  • Lenehan, Joseph.
  • Lenihan, Brian.
  • Loughnane, William A.
  • Lynch, Celia.
  • Lynch, John.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • Cowen, Bernard.
  • Cronin, Jerry.
  • Crowley, Flor.
  • Cunningham, Liam.
  • Davern, Noel.
  • de Valera, Vivion.
  • Dowling, Joe.
  • Fahey, Jackie.
  • Faulkner, Pádraig.
  • Fitzpatrick, Tom. (Dublin Central).
  • Flanagan, Seán.
  • Foley, Desmond.
  • Forde, Paddy.
  • French, Seán.
  • Gallagher, James.
  • Geoghegan, John.
  • Gibbons, Hugh.
  • McSharry, Ray.
  • Meaney, Thomas.
  • Molloy, Robert.
  • Moore, Seán.
  • Nolan, Thomas.
  • Noonan, Michael.
  • O'Connor, Timothy.
  • O'Kennedy, Michael.
  • O'Leary, John.
  • O'Malley, Des.
  • Power, Patrick.
  • Sheridan, Joseph.
  • Sherwin, Seán.
  • Smith, Michael.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Timmons, Eugene.
  • Tunney, Jim.
  • Wyse, Pearse.

Níl

  • Barry, Richard.
  • Begley, Michael.
  • Belton, Luke.
  • Belton, Paddy.
  • Browne, Noël.
  • Burke, Joan.
  • Burke, Liam.
  • Burke, Richard.
  • Burton, Philip.
  • Clinton, Mark A.
  • Cluskey, Frank.
  • Coogan, Fintan.
  • Cooney, Patrick M.
  • Corish, Brendan.
  • Cosgrave, Liam.
  • Cruise-O'Brien, Conor.
  • Desmond, Barry.
  • Dockrell, Henry P.
  • Esmonde, Sir Anthony C.
  • Finn, Martin.
  • FitzGerald, Garret.
  • Fitzpatrick, Tom. (Cavan).
  • Flanagan, Oliver J.
  • Hogan O'Higgins, Brigid.
  • Jones, Denis F.
  • Kavanagh, Liam.
  • Keating, Justin.
  • L'Estrange, Gerald.
  • Malone, Patrick.
  • Murphy, Michael P.
  • O'Donovan, John.
  • O'Higgins, Thomas F.
  • O'Leary, Michael.
  • O'Reilly, Paddy.
  • O'Sullivan, John L.
  • Pattison, Séamus.
  • Spring, Dan.
  • Thornley, David.
  • Timmins, Godfrey.
  • Treacy, Seán.
  • Tully, James.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies Andrews and Meaney; Níl, Deputies R. Burke and Cluskey.
Question declared carried.
Committee Stage ordered for Tuesday, 8th December, 1970.
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