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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 2 Feb 1971

Vol. 251 No. 3

Private Members' Business. - Offensive Weapons Bill, 1970: First Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed: "That leave be granted to introduce a Bill entitled an Act to prohibit the possession and production of certain weapons."
—(Deputy Cosgrave.)

(Cavan): We last had Private Members' Business in this House on 25th February, 1970, and on that occasion I moved the adjournment of the debate on Private Members' Bill entitled the Offensive Weapons Bill, 1970, introduced by the Leader of the Fine Gael Party, Deputy Cosgrave, and myself. It so happened that after I had moved the adjournment of the debate I became rather suddenly ill and was removed to hospital.

I must say the Government were very generous and gave me every opportunity to recover, to recuperate and to convalesce before asking me to resume almost 12 months later. That 25th February was a memorable day enough in this House in a couple of respects. This Bill came on rather unexpectedly on that occasion because a motion urging better old age pensions collapsed. During the discussion on that motion, if I may very briefly mention it——

What has this to do with the contents of the Bill?

(Cavan): I will come to the Bill very quickly. During the discussion on that motion the former Minister for Local Government left the House in protest against something or another, alleging he had not been allowed to speak on the motion which, of course, was not correct. I might put on record that the same Minister left the House permanently under protest a few months later for an entirely different set of reasons.

At any rate, in those circumstances this measure, the Offensive Weapons Bill, 1970, was introduced by Deputy Cosgrave and myself and Deputy Cosgrave explained the general provisions of the Bill. Deputy Thornley spoke on behalf of the Labour Party and the former Minister for Justice, Deputy Moran, spoke on behalf of the Government. I had begun to conclude and, therefore, I do not intend to speak at any length on this occasion. It is a fact that since I last spoke five new Members have been introduced to the House and I may, therefore, be pardoned for saying briefly a few words about the Bill.

The Bill was introduced by Fine Gael in the light of many crimes of violence in the years immediately preceding its introduction—crimes of violence involving the use of knives and other lethal weapons, particularly in this city. In 1967 there were 31 assaults involving the use of knives, in 1968 there were 31 such assaults and in 1966 one death resulted from an assault involving the use of a knife. The people of the city of Dublin and the people of the country in general were very perturbed about the number of crimes involving the use of knives which had been committed in this city and throughout the country, and the Fine Gael Party campaigned very strongly for legislation which would put an end to this type of crime.

Indeed, when the infamous Criminal Justice Bill was introduced away back in 1967, the Fine Gael spokesman on Justice at that time offered to the Minister that we would give him several provisions in the Criminal Justice Bill dealing with the use of knives and other offensive weapons in a short Bill in this House in five minutes, but the Minister for Justice then did not agree to accept that offer and the matter dragged on, the offences continued. In order to deal with the matter, this party put down the Bill with which we are now dealing. It remained on the Order Paper for quite a time and was reached, as I have said, on 25th February, 1970.

Very briefly, the Bill proposes to outlaw the use of knives, flick knives and other such offensive weapons. It makes it an offence for any person to produce a knife or other article capable of inflicting serious injuries, in a dance hall, marquee, cinema, club or any premises in which food or drink is served, or at any sports festival, carnival or bazaar, to produce any knife other than an ordinary penknife.

How would one eat the turkey and ham?

(Cavan): I said “other than an ordinary penknife”. It makes it an offence for any person to have a flick knife or any article made or adaptable for use for causing injury to the person. Generally speaking, the purpose of the Bill is to outlaw the use of flick knives or similar weapons.

Now, tell the House where you got it from, where you stole it from.

(Cavan): Dear, dear, I would have thought this brand new young Minister would not have followed in the lines of the old warrior who was there before him. He treated us to an exhibition of that on 25th February, 1970, but he also gave us an undertaking, which I will come to in a few minutes if the present Minister for Justice will bear with me. I have told the House the general purpose of the Bill is to make it illegal to carry certain weapons in restaurants, public houses, dance halls, at race meetings and so on.

I think it was a Bill that had the general approval of the House on the last occasion. Even the former Minister for Justice, Deputy Moran, did not quarrel with the Bill but he did abuse me at considerable length for having stolen these particular sections of this Bill from his precious Criminal Justice Bill. I concede that, at all times, this Party said there were some good provisions in the Criminal Justice Bill but that there were some mighty objectionable sections and that we refused to accept it as a package deal—that we would accept the sections we approved of but oppose bitterly the undemocratic jackboot police state provisions contained in other sections of that measure.

Deputy Moran who was Minister for Justice at that time did not find fault with this Bill—as his recorded speeches will prove. He claimed it as his own. He alleged I had stolen it from the Criminal Justice Bill.

Perfectly correct.

(Cavan): As far as I can find out, the Criminal Justice Bill was introduced into this House on 22nd June, 1967. Subsequent to that, there were many stabbings in the city of Dublin and some deaths but the Government did not seek a Second Reading until 18th February, 1969. If there is any virtue in this Bill, whose fault was it that there was a delay of practically two years between the First and Second Readings?

The Bill was not published until well into 1968. From the time the Second Reading was first moved, the Bill was obstructed continuously——

It was introduced.

(Cavan): It was introduced by the Government of which the Minister is now a member on 22nd June, 1967, and was not offered for a Second Reading until 18th February, 1969. There was a general election on 18th June, 1969. When we discussed this matter before on 25th February, 1970—nearly 12 months after that general election—the Bill had not been re-introduced or re-activated. The Minister's predecessor in office, Deputy Moran, attacked me for larceny and all sorts of things, for taking this Bill, section by section, out of his Criminal Justice Bill. As reported at column 1642 of the Official Report of 25th February, 1970, he went on to give this undertaking to the House:

We will be dealing with the Criminal Justice Bill in this House within the next couple of weeks and I will deal with it in my own way. I am dealing with a particular portion of it that was lifted out of it by my friends opposite.

He went on further to give an undertaking to this House that, whatever was removed from his Criminal Justice Bill or however it would be dolled up to satisfy the Fianna Fáil Party or the Fianna Fáil Ard-Fheis, it would certainly have the sections which I had written into the Bill we are now discussing.

It will have them.

(Cavan):

It is now 2nd February, 1971—nearly 12 months later—and Deputy Moran, the man who was going to produce this Bill and ram it down my throat, whether or not I liked it, is gone——

To Russia.

(Cavan):——with Deputy Boland, the then Minister for Local Government, and we have not heard a word about the Offensive Weapons Bill nor about the Criminal Justice Bill. I do not want the Criminal Justice Bill but I want the Offensive Weapons Bill because there are young thugs and bullies going around with flick knives and other offensive weapons terrorising decent, law-abiding people. I charge the present Minister for Justice and the present Government with a complete dereliction of duty.

You obstructed the Criminal Justice Bill for three months.

(Cavan): I did not. Take your medicine. You are playing about with the Criminal Justice Bill and trying to sell its objectionable sections. I agree that in the past 12 months it might have been a very useful measure to the Minister: I do not know what he might have done with it. The Government are guilty of a complete dereliction of duty——

——by not bringing in the Criminal Justice Bill quick enough to suit Deputy Fitzpatrick: put that on the record.

(Interruptions.)

(Cavan):——by not making up their mind. It is typical of this Taoiseach's leadership and of Government in this country in the past couple of years. They bring in a Bill; they stall it; they run away from it. There is an election. They cannot make up their minds whether to bring in a completely new Bill or whether to re-draft it. It is the price freeze all over again. They do not know whether they are going or coming. I do not call that leadership. Make up your minds whether or not you want the Criminal Justice Bill.

We have made up our minds. Do you want it next week? We are bringing it back into this House——

(Cavan): When? I want the Government to stop wobbling and to make up their minds. If they bring it in here we shall deal with it——

——and obstruct it, like the last time. Soon enough.

We are dealing with the Offensive Weapons Bill.

The Minister is interrupting.

(Cavan): They are giving as an excuse for opposing this Bill the fact that they have a Criminal Justice Bill which they are going to introduce. I am entitled to follow that hare a bit and to shoot it down and to pin the Government down to something. When will it come before us?

Soon enough, now.

(Cavan): We have a situation in this country that demands this sort of legislation—the Offensive Weapons Bill, 1970.

Hear, hear.

(Cavan): The Government are doing nothing. They cannot make up their minds——

The Criminal Justice Bill——

The Criminal Justice Bill is not being discussed now.

(Cavan): Another illustrious predecessor of the present Minister for Justice, Deputy Brian Lenihan, who is now in the United States, when Deputy Cosgrave introduced this matter first by way of question a few years ago——

Deputy Brian Lenihan is a great man for promises.

(Cavan): When Deputy Cosgrave introduced this matter by way of question a few years ago, he suggested to the then Minister for Justice, Deputy Lenihan, that there was a problem involving offences in which knives were used. He asked the Minister to take steps to deal with the problem but the Minister told him that there was no problem at all. Instead of introducing legislation then to deal with the problem, he waited until people were stabbed and murdered on the streets of Dublin.

He brought in the legislation—to quote yourself, he brought it in on the 22nd June, 1967.

(Cavan): Yes, but when he had been asked to do so two years earlier, he said there was no problem. I am asking this Government and this Minister to face up to their responsibilities. I do not mind whether they enact the sections either in this Bill or by means of an independent bill. Neither do I mind whether the Minister says that these sections were taken from the Criminal Justice Bill because these sections are necessary for the protection of life and limb in this city——

Hear, hear.

(Cavan):——in particular and in the country generally. I want them enacted.

They will be enacted in the Criminal Justice Bill.

(Cavan): I was told that 12 months ago but nothing has been done in the meantime. Admittedly, the Government have been busy with other matters——

With the Offences Against the State Act.

(Cavan):——but it is time they stopped squabbling within their own party and got down to dealing with the business of the country and with putting through the House the necessary legislation for the governing of this country. Twelve months ago I was told exactly what I am being told now by the Minister for Justice—we will have it within a fortnight. Of course, the bubble had not burst at that time although it was very near the bursting point. There is no excuse for not accepting this Bill. It is an extraordinary state of affairs that the Minister should sit there and say that this is Government policy and that they approve of everything that is in this Bill. In fact, he goes a little further and says that they drafted it and we stole it.

Yes, that is true.

(Cavan): What, then, is the objection to giving it a Second Reading? What is the objection to ordering the printing of the Bill and letting the people of the country see what it contains? What is the objection to putting it on the Statute Book because, if the Minister is correct, it does not even require to be sent to the Parliamentary draftsman because it has already been dealt with by him and section 22 put in front of section 23 or something to that effect, as was said by the Minister's predecessor?

I strongly recommend this Bill to the House and invite Members to give it a Second Reading.

Question put.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 43; Níl, 61.

  • Begley, Michael.
  • Belton, Luke.
  • Belton, Paddy.
  • Browne, Noël.
  • Bruton, John.
  • Burke, Joan.
  • Byrne, Hugh.
  • Clinton, Mark A.
  • Cluskey, Frank.
  • Conlan, John F.
  • Coogan, Fintan.
  • Corish, Brendan.
  • Cosgrave, Liam.
  • Creed, Donal.
  • Crotty, Kieran.
  • Cruise-O'Brien, Conor.
  • Desmond, Barry.
  • Dockrell, Henry P.
  • Dockrell, Maurice E.
  • Donnellan, John.
  • Dunne, Thomas.
  • Esmonde, Sir Anthony C.
  • Finn, Martin.
  • Fitzpatrick, Tom (Cavan).
  • Governey, Desmond.
  • Harte, Patrick D.
  • Hogan O'Higgins, Brigid.
  • Jones, Denis F.
  • Kavanagh, Liam.
  • L'Estrange, Gerald.
  • McMahon, Lawrence.
  • Malone, Patrick.
  • O'Connell, John F.
  • O'Donovan, John.
  • O'Higgins, Thomas F.
  • O'Leary, Michael.
  • O'Reilly, Paddy.
  • Pattison, Séamus.
  • Ryan, Richie.
  • Taylor, Francis.
  • Thornley, David.
  • Timmins, Godfrey.
  • Tully, James.

Níl

  • Aiken, Frank.
  • Allen, Lorcan.
  • Andrews, David.
  • Brennan, Joseph.
  • Brennan, Paudge.
  • Brosnan, Seán.
  • Browne, Patrick.
  • Browne, Seán.
  • Burke, Patrick J.
  • Carter, Frank.
  • Carty, Michael.
  • Childers, Erskine.
  • Colley, George.
  • Collins, Gerard.
  • Connolly, Gerard C.
  • Cowen, Bernard.
  • Cronin, Jerry.
  • Crowley, Flor.
  • Cunningham, Liam.
  • de Valera, Vivion.
  • Dowling, Joe.
  • Fahey, Jackie.
  • Faulkner, Pádraig.
  • Fitzpatrick, Tom (Dublin Central).
  • Foley, Desmond.
  • Forde, Paddy.
  • French, Seán.
  • Gallagher, James.
  • Geoghegan, John.
  • Gogan, Richard P.
  • Haughey, Charles.
  • Blaney, Neil.
  • Boylan, Terence.
  • Brady, Philip A.
  • Healy, Augustine A.
  • Herbert, Michael.
  • Hillery, Patrick J.
  • Hilliard, Michael.
  • Hussey, Thomas.
  • Kenneally, William.
  • Kitt, Michael F.
  • Lalor, Patrick J.
  • Lemass, Noel T.
  • Lenehan, Joseph.
  • Lenihan, Brian.
  • Lynch Celia.
  • Lynch, John.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • Molloy, Robert.
  • Moore, Seán.
  • Noonan, Michael.
  • O'Connor, Timothy.
  • O'Kennedy, Michael.
  • O'Leary, John.
  • O'Malley, Des.
  • Power, Patrick.
  • Sherwin, Seán.
  • Smith, Michael.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Timmons, Eugene.
  • Wyse, Pearse.
Tellers: Tá: Deputies Byrne and Bruton; Níl: Deputies Andrews and Seán Browne.
Question declared lost.
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