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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 25 Mar 1971

Vol. 252 No. 9

Committee on Finance. - Vote 48: Health (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:
That a supplementary sum not exceeding £6,575,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1971, for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Minister for Health (including Oifig an ArdChláraitheora), and certain services administered by that Office, including grants to Local Authorities, miscellaneous grants and certain Grants-in Aid.—(Minister for Health.)

I referred briefly yesterday to the thalidomide children in this country and said I was very surprised that the Department had refused to disclose details of two scientific reports—I have just checked over my notes now and I find there were two reports—which were presented to it over seven years ago. The Minister's reason for not making this known is that the series of tables on these cases if disclosed might identify thalidomide victims. I have no doubt that we have 60 or 65 thalidomide victims in this country. They present a very serious problem. They will require special appliances for the remainder of their lives. The Department, up to January anyway, had not made known to the parents of these children that they would act on their behalf to secure compensation. It is a serious reflection on the Department that we cannot do anything to protect these children especially when it is known that in Britain compensation was secured a number of years ago. Here the parents are left not knowing how they stand. The Department have not even stated whether they will provide free services and facilities for these children. We all know the tragedy of thalidomide. The German company, the Grunenthal Company, which manufactured this drug, was permitted to market it in this country without any restriction whatever. This is where we want more and more restrictions and regulations regarding drugs. No restrictions whatsoever were enforced about the supply or availability of this drug. It was sold over the counters in chemist shops. No doctor's prescription was needed for thalidomide. The only surprise is that we did not have more victims of this thalidomide drug.

I should like to see the Department making known those two scientific reports which should have been published in medical journals so that we would know exactly the number in the country. The Department have not a right to suppress those reports once they commissioned them. They were carried out by Doctor Victoria Coffey and they should be published, even if only in medical journals.

Secondly, the Department should make it clear that appliances will be provided for those children who will require them for the rest of their lives. The Department should also make it known that all other medical services required by those children will be supplied free, without any other obligation or proviso. Thirdly, I should like the Department to make it known to the parents and to the public, who are concerned about this, that they will pursue on behalf of those children claims for proper and adequate compensation from this German company or their agents. The Department have spent seven years considering this and meanwhile those children are growing up. It is time the Department did something concrete about it. In May, 1968, the then Minister for Health, Deputy Seán Flanagan, said in reply to a question in the Dáil that he would think about it. That is not good enough for those children, who are in need of constant care.

We have been told that under the Health Act there will be some type of uniformity or standardisation about eligibility for the medical card. I am one of the Deputies who are constantly making representations on behalf of people but too often my representations are unsuccessful. The great problem is that people who apply for the medical card are asked to disclose some very personal and intimate details of their lives. While I appreciate that we must have some details, some arrangement should be made whereby those medical reports—details of the medical history in the case and what treatment is needed—should be supplied to medical officers in the health authority and not necessarily to civil servants or public officials. It is very dangerous in this community that those intimate and personal details should have to be supplied in this way.

It is difficult to ascertain why one person is eligible for a medical card and the next is not. I have seen cases where one parent or the other was prevented from obtaining a medical card because the gross income of the household was taken into account. This is a wrong attitude to adopt because in many cases the gross income and what actually comes into the household are two very different things. The gross income has not had taken into account tax deductions, superannuation, social welfare payments and the fact that sons and daughters in the household are saving in many cases to get married. Their income should not be taken into account.

It has been said by the Minister that under the 1970 Health Act only the income of the spouse will be taken into account. I hope this will be done soon. I hope we can have some type of uniformity because it is a terrible situation when we find that 50 per cent of the people in one county can have medical cards whilst in Dublin, where there are so many cases in need of them, we find only 12 to 14 per cent of the people receive medical cards. The system must be wrong when this can happen.

While speaking on the medical cards I have to refer to a great injustice being done to old age pensioners who have to have medical treatment provided in local authority hospitals, and especially in St. Kevin's Hospital, Dublin. Those old age pensioners go into those hospitals for treatment and, as holders of medical cards, they are entitled to this treatment free in the same way as an ordinary person in receipt of a medical card is entitled to treatment and maintenance free in a hospital. We are discriminating against those old age pensioners because their pension books are demanded from them after three weeks in the hospital. Despite the fact that those people are still receiving treatment they are not given the benefit of the medical cards which they hold. This discrimination should stop. I have written to the Minister and I have gone to him about those people, who are no different from ordinary people holding medical cards. It is a terrible injustice to those people that because they are old we say it is only institutional treatment they are receiving. It has been pointed out over and over again that many of those people receive treatment for heart disease, arthritis and many other illnesses which beset people in later life. I can readily understand if those people do not receive treatment that they should be asked to make some contribution towards their institutional care from their pension allowances.

We have, as a Christian country, fallen down very badly in the care of our senior citizens who have done so much for the country and who find themselves at the end of their days as geriatric patients deprived of proper care. If you phone a hospital for a bed for a patient over 65 years of age the chances of getting that bed are very remote. They do not want people of that age in the hospital. Those people may have any serious acute condition but because you say they are over 65 you have not any hope of getting them into hospital. We have to lie and say that patients are 61 or 62 when, in fact, they are over 70 because general hospitals do not want to admit these patients. I saw a patient die from bedsores because she was at home and no proper nursing could be provided. If the Minister telephones St. Kevin's today he will find the waiting list so long that there is no hope of getting an elderly patient in.

I recently had to plead with the hospital to take in a blind woman, who had suffered a stroke and was unconscious. She was living in a two bed-roomed house, with three teenagers in another bed in the same room. She needed medical care on a continuous basis but it was impossible for the family to give it. She died two days after she was admitted to hospital. A health service which will not provide care for geriatric patients is unchristian and unjust. We have to face this problem because more and more people are living longer. We must ensure that, when they fall ill, proper medical and nursing care is provided.

I know the Minister will say we cannot have all geriatric cases in hospital, that the families must provide care for them. I agree that where possible, families must provide care, but when they are medical or surgical cases we must provide beds so that they can be admitted to hospital. I am still trying to get into hospital an 82-year old patient who is bleeding recurrently, but, unfortunately, we may wait indefinitely to get a bed for that patient. We cannot be proud of our health service if we are not able to provide beds for these people.

Would it not be possible to convert some unused barracks into geriatric units? Thanks to my colleague, Deputy Browne, St. Mary's in Phoenix Park was provided. We do not realise the debt we owe Deputy Browne who, when he was Minister for Health, eradicated TB by providing sanatoria My 18 year old sister was one and a half years on the waiting list trying to get into a sanatorium, but unfortunately she was not admitted in time and died at home. Many of these sanatoria are being used as mental homes and St. Mary's caters for geriatric patients. It is a wonderful place and it is serving a useful purpose in the treatment of geriatric cases.

It is a pity there are not more of these buildings available which could be used for this purpose.

I want to pay tribute to the Minister for his decision to ban cigarette advertising on television. I should be even more pleased if he would go one step further and ask his colleague, the Minister for Finance, to offer tax concessions to the publishers of our national papers if they would desist from allowing cigarette advertisements to appear in their papers. National newspapers are under a strain by being taxed as information media and if such tax concessions were offered I feel sure they would avail of them.

I spoke briefly yesterday about the Department of Health information service. I do not think the Department, of itself, can provide an adequate service. I would recommend the establishment of a health education council, because there are other aspects of health education besides educating people about the dangers of smoking.

I am surprised that the Minister and his Department are dilly-dallying over the report of the working party on drug abuse. Drug abuse is a problem in all our major cities but it is particularly prevalent in Dublin. From my experience it is a great pity that the Minister is not acting more quickly than he is on the report from the working party, which he has had in his possession since the beginning of February. It is nearing the end of March and it should have been possible to study the report by now.

I understand about a third of Irish university students have smoked or are smoking marijuana and have taken LSD on occasions. From what I understand young apprentice workers and unskilled workers in the 15 to 18 age bracket are also experimenting with drugs. When I first came into this House in 1965 I had seen cases of drug abuse. I have come across drug addicts who kidded me in order to get narcotic drugs. They used every trick known, and no matter how conversant or alert one was these addicts managed to trick one and get a shot of pethidine or morphine. This happened to me in hospital and I have seen surgeons in Dublin fooled by narcotic drug addicts who feign so many illnesses in order to get drugs. I blame the medical profession and the pharmaceutical industry for this because in our innocence we have prescribed, too often and unnecessarily, amphetamine drugs.

We, indeed, were responsible in no small measure for many of the cases of drug addiction, particularly amphetamine and dexadrine addiction, because of the availability of these. It is to the credit of the Minister that he took steps immediately to ban the manufacture and sale of amphetamines. Unfortunately, because of our proximity to Britain, amphetamines are still coming in and are being used by our youth. I have seen cases of methedrine addiction. I have met cases of people who inject themselves with methedrine to induce a "high." I have come across the speed freak who takes methedrine. The effect is quite deplorable. It produces utter mental deterioration and breakdown.

The onus of providing all the essential information is on the Department and I certainly do not agree with the report I read of a psychiatrist who said he took LSD. Impressionable young people might be encouraged by that report to take LSD. This is a very dangerous drug. It drives people in-sane. We are all aware of the fact that deaths have occurred through the use of LSD. Those who take the drug begin to feel like gods and there are documented cases of people standing in front of express trains in the belief that they could stop the trains, of people jumping out of windows in the belief that they could fly, of people, believing they could walk on water, drowning. LSD is being used in Dublin. I had occasion to speak to a group of about 60 parents and at least 10 per cent of that group told me their children had been offered drugs in cafés in the Grafton Street area. This is a serious problem. These parents were anxious for an education and information service on the dangers of drug abuse.

We are living in an age in which everyone wants a pill of one kind or another as a panacea for all his ills. He thinks a pill will cure everything and doctors are, unfortunately, being pressurised by patients. It is not enough for a doctor to devote some of his time to psychotherapy with a patient and tell the patient not to worry, that all he is suffering from is an anxiety state; the patient thinks that, if he goes to the doctor, and does not get a prescription then the doctor is not doing his job, despite the fact that the doctor has tried to reassure the patient that there is no organic illness. Too often, doctors are tempted to write prescriptions for tranquillisers or sedatives. This is how addiction begins ending ultimately in abuse. It is not unknown—this is no joke, though it may sound like one— for nurses in hospitals to wake sleeping patients to give them a sleeping tablet. They are following the consultant's instructions and they do not see the illogicality of waking a sleeping patient to give that patient a sleeping tablet. More education is required here. Perhaps doctors would be better advised to refrain from prescribing sleeping tablets because barbiturate addiction is a serious one.

Housewives seek sedatives and tranquillisers, particularly barbiturates, and it behoves all of us to be very careful in such cases because addiction is becoming quite a serious problem. There is a pill-popping mania and there are too many pill-popping mommas. It must be remembered that children are very impressionable and if they see a mother taking a tablet at the least sign of stress or tension they grow up with the belief that there is a tablet or a pill to cure every ill.

I have heard of a great deal of experimentation by youth raiding medicine cabinets in the home. Children do not realise what it is they are experimenting with. This is a problem that must be examined. Parents should be very careful about where they put tablets. These should always be outside the range of children, particularly if they are sedatives or tranquillisers. The responsibility is on parents to bring children up properly and not to set a bad example. Drugs or drink can constitute a very bad example and the best education can be given by parents in the home. I have no doubt the Minister agrees with me in that.

I should like the Minister to make regulations which would make it more difficult to have these drugs available. If steps are not taken we will have a bigger and bigger problem of narcotic addiction. I had prescriptions of mine forged. Every doctor and pharmacist should have a narcotic number as a protection against the possibility of forged prescriptions. To give the pharmaceutical profession its due, the members are on the alert, but it is very easy to change a prescription from one month's supply to two months supply. We must wake up to this problem and we, as doctors, must be on the alert too.

I came across a case recently where a patient had been prescribed Vallium by a hospital; the treatment was continued by the doctor but the patient was taking 24 tablets per day instead of one tablet. This is more powerful than a shot of morphine. Addiction had set in. I was consulted because a relative complained that the dispensary pharmacist was not giving a big enough supply at a time. She did not realise this was a drug of addiction and the patient had become an addict. Without meaning it, the doctor was at fault. He just repeated the prescription. I could not solve the problem. I got in touch with the health authority and advised that a placebo that looked identical might be substituted. Unfortunately, officials could not tackle this problem. It is a doctor's problem. I was in touch with the assistant city medical officer and he said it was dangerous ground to thread on because we would have to get back to the doctor and try to indict him and he in turn might indict the hospital. Everyone unwittingly was a culprit in this, without really being so, of course. As doctors we should perhaps be a little more alert to this problem and realise that when we are prescribing drugs which are addictive we must be very careful and get our patients off them as quickly as possible.

I have found that you can get these patients off these drugs, especially in the early stages. I found in regard to one patient who had been getting a shot of morphine every night to make her sleep that I could get her to sleep with a shot of distilled sterile water. She would be asleep within about ten minutes. It is not too difficult to get these people off drugs, especially those who have been given drugs of addiction or narcotics in hospital and must continue on them. You can maintain them and if you are on the alert and smart enough with them you can get them off them very easily. Patients will have to be educated by the Department or by a health education council to the fact that they must not always be seeking drugs or tablets and they must appreciate that the body's normal recuperative powers must be allowed to work.

The Deputy must realise that what he has been saying for the last 20 minutes would have to be agreed to by the Medical Association. I could not possibly act in the matter of prescriptions and methods of dealing with drugs. It does not arise on this Estimate at all. This is something for elucidation by the Medical Association and not by me at all.

I am delighted that the Minister has intervened. I see here that provision is made for health information. Health information is important and it does arise and whether the Minister likes to hear these things or not I am telling him.

I would have to get consent from the Medical Association for any——

The first thing is to have discussions with them.

I have had discussions with them.

I heard that the Minister was looking into the problem in October, 1970, but nothing has emerged. To my knowledge a meeting did not take place at all. The Minister has an obligation and a duty to look into this serious problem, one which will become more serious because of our proximity to Britain. The Minister also has an obligation to publish the report of the working party on drug abuse. We should try to find out the number of drug addicts in the country and the best way to do that is to set up a register of addicts which would be made known to the medical officer and not to the Garda authorities. As far back as 1965 I asked that such a register be established so that these patients could be told that they could be helped, that they would get their drugs, as need be, under supervision. I wonder why there is this dilly-dallying about this. It is done in America and in Britain and why are we not doing it here? It is my duty to bring this matter to the attention of the Minister whether he likes it or not.

We must also educate the parents of these children and we must have regular educational information programmes, not in order to create a scare or to engender curiosity in drugs, but to educate children in their early teens and their parents. It is incumbent on the Minister to do this and not merely to say that we will have a summary of the report soon. He has had this report since early February and I wonder why it has not been made available.

The allocation of money for medical research comes under the Minister's Department. We should consider medical research seriously because we have the talent and the investigators and we cannot expect the work to be done on a shoestring, as happens at the moment. The grant for medical research is disgraceful. No proper research programme can be carried out by the investigators, of whom we have reason to be proud, unless they are assured of continuity of financial assistance for their projects. I would appreciate if the Minister could increase as soon as possible the amount being made available.

One other matter which I want to mention was raised recently in a question, but unfortunately I did not hear the Minister's reply. Whether the Minister likes it or not I am going to discuss it. It is the question of visiting hours in hospitals. We will have to be much more liberal in our approach to this matter of visiting hours to ensure that patients can be visited, because there is nothing more conducive to their recovery than visits from their people. While we have improved them, due to my discussions with the late Donogh O'Malley, they still leave a lot to be desired. Account must be taken of the fact that friends or relatives may have to visit at late hours or during the day at unspecified hours. It is something to which patients look forward. I am surprised that the Minister did not look favourably on the matter in relation to children, particularly children from the country who are so far away from home. It is a pity that provision is not made for free travel for parents to visit them.

I have a letter from a parent in Kerry whose child was in hospital in Dublin for three months and had no visit from a relative. The Minister should have made arrangements in regard to this, especially when rationalisation and regionalisation of our hospitals will mean that patients will be far from home. When a patient is 40 or 50 miles from home some provision should be made for visiting that patient. When we think of patients we must not always think in terms of therapeutics, medical treatment, but in terms of visiting them and making them feel that they belong. It must have a tremendous traumatic effect on young children when they are left in hospital for a long time with no visits.

The regionalisation of hospitals is necessary, despite local prejudice. We cannot have small hospitals with surgeons and physicians working in isolation. There must be a team and regionalisation is the answer if we are to provide an efficient hospital service. I am glad to see the steps that were taken in regard to the extension of the Sligo hospital. I read the Minister's speech in this connection and it is interesting that the Sligo Country Council had actually moved along the lines suggested by the FitzGerald Report. The only pity was that it did not go one step further and provide the extension, an addition of 17 to 20 beds, which would have enabled it to be classified as a hospital with 300 beds or more. The much-needed equipment for these hospitals must be provided. I was reading a report in one of this morning's papers and it is important because it shows how hospitals can be in difficulties when there is too much interference from the Department and when it cannot act without the permission of the Department. Dr. Tompkins, of the Royal Victoria Eye and Ear Hospital said:

The politicians have promised everything in the way of health services but the fact was that the banks, in the form of hospital overdrafts, were subsidising these services. Overdrafts were necessary because of rising costs.

If this is happening something must be done about it. Dr. Counihan, the Medical Administrator of St. Laurence's Hospital said:

The voluntary hospitals were denied the right of freedom of action to run the institution in a manner deemed best by the Governors and their staffs. No decision could now be taken without reference to the Department of Health. This did not make for progress or even economy.

I know Dr. Counihan. He is a very sensible man and would not make statements like that unless they were really warranted. He has put a tremendous amount of work into the hospital. He knows exactly how the Department, by its system, is thwarting the best efforts being made to run hospitals efficiently. If a secretary is needed for the records department of a hospital they must apply to the Department of Health and cannot make a move until they hear from the Department of Health.

Would the Deputy give the name of the newspaper?

The Irish Independent of this morning's date. Dr. Counihan also says that we might streamline our centres in the country a little more and suggested the setting up of a respiratory centre for patients to which all or most of our chest physicians might be attached. Respiratory conditions are on the increased due to excessive cigarette smoking, pollution of the atmosphere; the dampness of our climate is another cause. There is also the factor that even if people recover from tuberculosis it unfortunately leaves its mark in damaged lungs. These are the people who are in need of special care and attention and it can only be given if our hospitals are working efficiently and if proper centres are set up such as is suggested by Dr. Counihan. This is the way in which to reduce costs. Yesterday evening, the Minister knows, I made suggestions for reducing hospital costs, and this is another way in which it can be done. The specialists in these fields know exactly from their experience what improvements are needed and when suggestions are made by men like Dr. Counihan the Minister should be prepared to listen to and abide by such suggestions.

I wish to conclude by referring to the school health services which are far from being satisfactory. The Minister has great plans in mind and I would like to see them get ahead without much ado so that children will have the proper medical service examinations at frequent intervals while they are at school. The problem arises now about the dental service for school children. The Minister is making efforts in this direction. In answer to a question of mine he referred to a problem about dental officers and said the remuneration had been improved to make the posts attractive. However, I had a case a few days ago about which I have written to the Minister in relation to a school child who must have fillings but who must wait many months before he can get an appointment. It should be obvious to the dental officer concerned, or whoever decides this—it need not be the dental officer; it could be the lay clerical staff—that a delay of many months in giving dental treatment can be dangerous in so far as further deterioration can take place in the meantime and the teeth may go beyond repair by the time the child gets the appointment. The system is very bad at the moment. The waiting lists are extremely long and the children are not getting the dental care that is so vital to them.

I do not think the Minister has solved the problem of the dental officers in the midlands who resigned from the service and I would like to hear an up-to-date account of the situation from him. The dental service is one service that has been badly organised, badly run, and people have suffered as a result. Irish people have the name of having the worst teeth of any and, whilst fluoridation will ensure that this will not be so, I still think we need a proper dental service so that the people who are covered by the national health insurance scheme will get the service to which they are entitled. It should be available to them on the same lines as is medical attention.

I had a case recently of a child who needed orthodontic appliances. This child needs immediate treatment in order to prevent deterioration. A waiting time of 18 months for orthodontic appliances should not be tolerated no matter what we have to do about it. We should get on to the dental hospital and see what can be done to improve the service. I brought this case to the attention of the Minister and while the Minister is making efforts it is not solving the problem of children who must wait so long for such treatment.

In making these critical suggestions perhaps I have hurt the Minister's feelings because he may not like to be criticised when he is working so hard to improve the system. To my mind, he is the best Minister for Health we have had for many a day and he has applied himself very well to his work. He knows there are a lot of defects in the system but he is doing his best to remedy these. I hope he will be able to resolve the problem with the medical profession so that, especially in the major urban areas, there will be a free choice of doctor scheme for our people.

I intervene in this debate as one who, for a long time, has been a member of a health authority and as one who has been associated with public health for many years as a member of the old mental hospital board that we had in Limerick some 20 years ago. Following that I was a member of the Limerick Health Authority and I am now a member of the Regional Health Board. I want to give the benefit of my experience to the energetic and hard working Minister whom we are lucky to have at the present time.

In so far as my experience is concerned, I am glad to be able to say that we have been facilitated very well by the Department of Health. Perhaps this was because we took the reins into our own hands, so to speak, and carried out certain schemes in our own area never asking too much leave or licence from the Department. We dealt with the situation as we saw it in our particular area and applied ourselves to it in so far as our resources would permit in endeavouring to remedy and improve the position of the people generally in relation to the health services.

I shall put the most urgent matters before the Minister. The first of these is in relation to the care of handicapped children in its different phases. There are voluntary bodies associated with the provision of schools and other facilities for the mentally handicapped. As a member of the fund raising committee in Limerick, I can tell the Minister that our annual expenditure is in the region of £10,000. We provide teachers and physiotherapists and also minibuses to transport the children to and from the schools. We were fortunate in that a school was given to us by his lordship, the Bishop. We are subvented by the Department to the extent of about £3,000 so that we must, by our own efforts, make up the difference and, in terms of thousands, that entails a lot of hard work. Those six or eight of us who are on the fund raising committee must arrange for church gate collections in the diocese of Limerick, the diocese of Cashel and the diocese of Killaloe. We also run bingo sessions, raffles and so on and I must say the response we get from people generally is most encouraging. People have contributed to our cause who, I am sure, would not contribute to any other charity. In addition to the facilities I have already mentioned, we must also endeavour to provide hospitals. Anybody who has ever gone into a home where there is a handicapped child will realise the strain that is imposed on a mother and on the other members of the family. If the children are severely handicapped they cannot be left out of their parents' sight for a moment.

To my mind, the eradication of, say, TB has been overplayed and it is nonsense to say that this can be attributed to any one individual because the problem was tackled in a very imaginative way by the Department and its eradication would have come about one way or the other. I would like to see the Minister and his Department apply themselves equally energetically to the provision of homes and hospitals for handicapped children. The hospitals money is available and we are all aware that very little of this money was spent on the eradication of TB.

Our committee must also make arrangements to have available trained medical and nursing staff. It is practically impossible to find a place for a handicapped child in any home or hospital at present. There is a very extensive waiting list so that in many cases by the time the child is accepted for treatment, his condition has deteriorated and very little can be done for him. The Department should apply themselves immediately to this urgent and pressing problem which manifests itself all over the country.

There are being provided 455 beds this year.

That is very good but what is the demand?

So that the number being provided represents little more than a quarter of the requirements.

We are doing it at the rate of 250 or 300 a year.

I am glad to see that there is a stepping up and I congratulate the Minister on this. In the past these children were looked on as the cupboard children. I saw children like this of ten or 12 years of age in a tea chest. They belted the tea chest and the parents tried to keep it steady. This is the realistic side of knowing what a handicapped child is. Let us take them out of the cupboard. Let us tackle this problem. I want to congratulate the Minister on the action he has taken in the short time he has been in office.

I want to bring to his notice the need for a complete overhaul of our mental institutions. We all know that they are the old workhouse type of building. In some places they have been well renovated but in other places they have not been well renovated. We must also apply ourselves to the disease of mental illness. In the past the mentally ill were looked upon as something to be put on one side and to be joked about. We thought we were par excellence as far as intelligence was concerned, forgetting that we should apply charity to these unfortunate people who may be housed for all of their lives, or may be in the voluntary admission departments of mental hospitals.

We need to give these hospitals a general uplift. I know it is a difficult problem. I know that these patients are more or less semiconscious or in a mental vacuum all day and all night. They do not realise where they are, but their surroundings could be brightened. We know that they are fairly happy and that they are warm and well fed. Nevertheless a bright and happy atmosphere would make a great difference to them. I have a great belief in therapy for those patients. The previous Minister, and I think the Minister before him, were inclined to neglect the therapy needed by these male patients. I refer in particular to the farms which are attached to some of those mental hospitals. An effort was made by the Department to sell off those farms. They were treated as if they were not necessary and that we should get rid of them as soon as we could.

We in Limerick took a different stand. We fought hard and we maintained them and will continue to maintain them. I hope we will make further purchases of land adjacent to our institutions. I see the patients out in the fields. They are engaged every day in manual work, work that keeps them occupied. Not only is that good for them, but it also saves the institution expense. They sow their own vegetables. They kill their own beef, bacon and mutton, and they supply their own milk. That has an economic value and a value as occupational therapy for each patient who has the capacity to engage in it. The more of this we have the better, instead of cutting down on it.

While I am dealing with mental treatment I want to refer to something that has not been said already. I want to impress on the Minister the necessity of applying himself to a disease that is generally accepted by the medical profession and by the hierarchy as a disease, that is alcoholism. We have no institution or local authority homes for persons suffering from alcoholism. Provision is made for them, but where is it? It is in the grounds of the mental hospitals. These unfortunate people cannot afford to pay for very expensive treatment in private homes. There is one in Waterford, one in Dublin, and one elsewhere, but they are enormously expensive and they are beyond the capacity of most alcoholics to pay. That is very understandable when they reach the state of alcoholism where everything is gone and even the home is ruined.

I will be raising this matter at the next board meeting of the Western Regional Board. We should have special homes for those who suffer from the disease of alcoholism. I have made a rough calculation within my region and I reckon that in the North Tipperary region there are roughly 200 people in need of treatment for this disease. The figure is higher in Clare, and in Limerick it runs into well over 500. In all I would say that the regional board of which I am a member will have on our hands, if we want to tackle this problem, something in the region of 700 to 800 patients. Naturally enough these people will not go into the ordinary admission departments of the mental hospitals. They do not want to have that stigma. "He was above in the `quare' place." That is what you hear. This is the brand that is put on these unfortunate people. Let us face the face that it is a disease.

They do go in. One out of every 11.

Certainly, but the provision that is made is within the grounds of the mental hospitals.

It is a very difficult question.

I know, but the Minister is a very progressive man.

I am not sure that it is a good idea.

The Minister would not be in the job he is in were he not so inclined, and if he had not the capacity for it. It is a difficult question, but let us not turn our backs on it. Let us make provision within our regions for homes outside the grounds of the mental hospitals for the treatment of alcoholics. This is a growing disease. It has been faced up to now. In the past it was said: "He is on the batter. He is in the jigs. His old nerves are gone." It is more than that. Anybody who has any experience of alcoholics knows that once they get the first drink there is no end to it. Everything goes by the board, house, home and habitation. It is dreadful to see fathers of families with house gone, job gone, everything gone, and in and out of the admission department of a mental hospital. It is a disease that can and should be cured and with co-operation on all sides we should be able to surmount the problem.

I want to come now to the regional boards generally. We as public representatives who have come up the hard way in public life know how people think and how they live. I have agreed with the regionalisation of the health service but I cannot agree, so far anyway, to representation from the professions. While the Minister was certainly bona fide in his appointment of these people to the boards they have come on with a complete lack of knowledge of public relations. They come along to meetings and they talk as if they were speaking to a classroom of their students or a meeting of their own profession, forgetting altogether that we have been constituted for the welfare of the health of the people within our region. At the five or six meetings we have held, progress has been held up because of some fiddle faddle or some damn thing about which they have a kink. I have put down questions here to the Minister about this. While it is all very well to have advisory boards these men who were selected by the Minister to represent different sections of the community—they are not all medical men—should be there in an advisory capacity only and should not hold up a meeting for hours speaking about something that is not related, good, bad or indifferent, to the welfare of the people for which we were instituted.

Of course the Deputy is now indulging in criticism of legislation which was passed by the House.

I know, but because the Minister is receptive to suggestions, I know that he will take heed of a fellow who has spent 20 years in the public health service.

Most of what the Deputy has suggested can be done by a strong chairman who applies the agenda and the rules of order to prevent discussions that go beyond the business in hand. As the Deputy knows, it varies from area to area.

I know, but there are times when these people keep talking. Indeed, I suggested at one of our meetings that we should, in the vocational education committee, set up a class on procedure for the benefit of these people and let them come in line with men who have spent all their lives in public life. Then they would be educated to our way of thought and to our way of action. However, the Minister will bear it in mind. He said in his reply to my question that he was just giving it a trial for a couple of years until we see how things work out. I am satisfied on that.

We have not got a satisfactory dental service, through no fault of our own. I speak as a member of a health authority and now a health board. We have a demand for a dental service which we just cannot meet. Dental appointments have been advertised by the Department of Health and, if my information is correct. 30 applicants applied, 20 of those sat for interview and something like six took up the positions. Something is wrong. We have, and I am sure every health authority have, a very long waiting list for dental services generally. We have concentrated on the schoolchildren and from there on we have worked up. But we cannot even control the inspection of schoolchildren because we just have not got the dentists and we cannot get them. When we cannot get them there is something wrong, because, except in politics, every man has his price. If these positions were attractive enough people would apply and take them up. There is also the fact that the number of people admitted to study dentistry each year is very confined. There may be only 30 or 40 places for four times that many applicants. If we had the intake we would have the output and if we had the output we would satisfy the market demand. I would suggest to the Minister that he should start at the bottom. If the students do not go in they will not come out and we will not have them. The positions should also be made attractive enough for them to accept, instead of emigrating as most of them do.

We have a very big backlog of applicants for dentures. In my area it is almost impossible for medical card holders to be provided with dentures. We should introduce the system which prevails on the Continent where prosthodontists are allowed to work. They are registered as prosthodontists and they can apply themselves to this service. This is accepted in most European countries but it is not accepted here. Now that the demand is so great the Minister should let us have prosthodontists.

The case of the medical card has possibly been overstated but it is something which causes me concern. My experience goes back over 20 years and I do not know of one person who was deprived of a medical card because of the stated amount coming in to the house weekly.

Not in County Limerick. The Deputy should come up to Dublin.

I am speaking with 20 years experience. While the income varies, the health service demand varies also. There may be a person who has a demanding account from a hospital for maintenance or drugs but once it can be proved that the drugs are repetitive, that they are expensive and that it is beyond the capacity of that particular person to pay, we treat the case with every consideration.

I know of a married, childless farmer whose valuation was £50 being supplied with a medical card. This man's wife received medical treatment in Dublin several times a year. The man produced accounts for treatment in public wards and pharmacists' accounts. It was shown clearly that it was beyond his capacity to pay these accounts, even though he had a valuation of £50. We came to his assistance.

If other health authorities act differently the members should assert themselves at the meetings and let everyone know the position. A man on his own with £6 a week might not get a card while another family with £40 or £50 coming in weekly might need one. If attention in a public ward is needed, and if expensive drugs are repeatedly required, we assist people. If the home assistance officer shows us that expenses are beyond a person's means we come to the rescue. We do not do so in full in all cases. We may charge 10s or 15s or £1 a week on medicines costing £6 or £7 a week. We would arrange a charge which it was within the capacity of the person to pay. This is our method of working. We do not fix a definite figure.

The Minister should advise the regional health boards, which are shortly to come into existence, that each case should be treated on its merits. Such a system would alleviate the worries of parents entering hospital. We should allay their fears at such a time. I always encourage people to get treatment and tell them that we will discuss the financial arrangements afterwards. The new health boards should be directed that people must not be deprived of health service in a public ward.

I want now to come to the matter of home assistance which the health authority have to provide because of the ineptitude and lackadaisical approach of the Department of Social Welfare. Claims are held up for weeks and months. As a health authority we come to their assistance through out-door relief or home assistance. It is a charge on our health service. It should not be so. This has been going on for years because of the dilatory approach of the Department of Social Welfare.

Home assistance is not part of my Vote.

It is part of the health charges.

The Deputy will really extend the debate if he raises this matter.

I said in my opening sentence that I came here to give the Minister the benefit of my long experience in the public health service. I am letting the Minister see that the Health Estimate has been raised all over the country. There were protests yesterday from the General Council of County Councils. This is one of the reasons why the health rate has been increased.

The Deputy must appreciate that what we are dealing with is health expenditure up to 31st March of this year.

It has been said. I wish to refer now to smoking. This matter has been overplayed. One might as well tell a man not to license his gun because it might shoot him or not to go fishing because he might fall into the river and drown. We are faced with hazards daily. If a man is advised that he will kill himself if he jumps off Liberty Hall, but he goes and jumps off there is nothing that can be done about it. One can only warn a person. I know of people who attribute their long lives of 80 or 90 years to the fact that they have always smoked. There is no set rule for keeping healthy. The question of smoking is overplayed. We can only advise people that they would be better off without cigarettes. I do not believe in coercion. I cannot see the sense of bombarding people with advice. I am not looking at cigarette smoking from the economic point of view, as the Minister for Finance would. Some people find that smoking relaxes them. If a man gets relaxation from smoking cigarettes, a pipe or cigars he is entitled to do so without being branded as near-suicidal. People should be told of the dangers and left alone.

I come now to National Hygiene Week which started last Monday. We must take the Department of Health to task in this matter. They have done little or nothing to organise this week or to advertise it. They have not approached the matter in a practical way.

We are having a television and radio campaign on this subject. The Deputy is misinformed.

Speaking through radio and television is one thing but getting down to fundamentals is another thing. Organising exhibitions, symposia and the other approaches that must be made in regard to food generally, has not been done to the extent it should be done by his Department. That is my experience in my region. It is a matter of grave concern, particularly now that there is so much talk of entering EEC—whether that ever becomes a reality is of course another matter.

Inspections have been made by some EEC experts attached to Britain at some of our institutions. They have gone to certain factories and food processing plants and from what I know of their findings some of these establishments have not measured up to the required standards. Some have lost their export licences. What has the Department of Health been doing all these years in this regard? Why have not inspections taken place in the last five or ten years in these industries? It is only being done in the last month. I know of six inspections that were made in a particular industry, as a result of which some factories lost their export licence. Knowing the Minister as I do, knowing his energy and the fact that he is so much on the job, I know he must be aware of this. This is a position we must rectify immediately. If some of our plants are sub-standard, as they are, and if money must be spent on improving them, that must be done and the money must be provided. If the industries cannot provide the funds themselves some provision should be made by some Government Department to assist such cases.

Perhaps I may mention the overrated effort now being made in regard to contraceptives, abortions and all kinds of nonsensical things that we are hearing about at present. I wish the Minister would apply himself half as keenly in this regard as in regard to smoking and other matters. If we want to have a healthy nation in body and mind of which we can be proud these are the things to which the Minister should apply himself and not the ridiculous suggestion that you should give up smoking or you will die of cancer. That is what I think. We shall have more to say on that later on but I want to make my feelings clear. In school we learned to aim at: "Mens sana in corpore sano”. If we resort to the despicable practices of contraception, divorce and abortion we shall be finished as a nation.

Finally, I congratulate the Minister on the manner in which he has carried out his functions since taking over the Department of Health. I wish him well. He has a troublesome and hard road before him but as far as we in Limerick are concerned we shall make it as easy as possible but if we must, we will be as rough as a cooper's chisel, and that is rough enough. I hope the Minister will accept my suggestions in the spirit in which they are made and that he will make use of them as he thinks fit. I trust that we shall move in the direction of providing a service with which all the people of the country will be satisfied.

No matter what Minister is in charge of our health services or how efficient he may be, no matter how hard Ministers work and study the situation, under the present system costs will continue to rise. Evidence of that is this Supplementary Estimate now before us in an effort to control the heavy burdens placed not only on ratepayers but also on taxpayers.

First, I want to deal with a small item, in a sense, but it concerns many people and that is the administration of the disabled persons' allowances. I know quite a few cases of people suffering from chronic ailments such as multiple sclerosis, or disseminated sclerosis. That is a disease in which there is no future: it is a deteriorating condition and ultimately the victims become totally paralysed. I have cited one disease but there are many others and all such cases should be fully entitled to disabled persons' allowances. Unfortunately, the system by which these allowances are administered is that the local authority is the contracting agent for the Department of Health. They investigate cases and decide whether a person is entitled to the disabled persons' allowance, mainly through a means test. The type of person does not seem to be taken sufficiently into account. Disabled people have my deepest sympathy and no doubt also have the sympathy of the Minister and those concerned in the investigation of such cases. My plea is for a more liberal approach. Anyone who has definitely contracted a deteriorating ailment which will leave him unable to maintain himself or do practically anything for himself for the remainder of his life should be entitled to this allowance. It would cost the country only a small sum and this allowance should be given to such people provided they are duly certified medically for the purpose.

I have written to the Minister for Health in regard to different cases and I have no real cause for complaint but as the regulations stand, or, putting it another way, as the administration is carried out, there is restriction in this matter. I would ask the Minister to review the position and make the system more liberal.

The more recent escalation of overall health charges is undoubtedly due to the turnover tax and that fact should not be allowed to escape attention. Although the turnover tax may not apply directly to medical conditions generally it has been responsible for an increase in the overall charges in hospitals and increased hospital charges to the public. In the foreseeable future it seems to me the method of collecting tax will be on the same lines or, perhaps, an added value tax but in any case there will be an overall charge which will reflect directly on health administration and charges will go up ad infinitum. I see no other possibility. I have expressed this opinion very often here: I do not believe that the present administration of health charges, the manner in which they are imposed is justifiable or practical because no matter who is Minister for Health or how he cheesepares or tries to meet the situation, he will be faced with escalating charges.

About three or four weeks ago I asked a parliamentary question of an anticipatory kind as to what the Minister proposed to do to control increasing charges. The question related particularly to the rates. The Minister gave a rather curious reply. Unfortunately, I do not have it here now but I can remember it quite distinctly. He said he was considering some form of contributory scheme. The Minister did not give me a reply as to the amount concerned nor did he give me an idea as to what he was going to do with regard to holding down the rates. I did not press the Minister because nobody was more pleased than I was with the reply. I have long maintained that, if we are trying to give our people a satisfactory health service, we have to establish a system whereby those who are responsible, and those who are able to pay, will pay the necessary amount. I do not think it is appreciated by the general public, or possibly by some Deputies, that nobody bothers about the cost of medical services until it applies to themselves. Therefore, the logical answer to the situation is to have some form of contributory scheme. That is the only way in which the cost of medicine can be held down.

I feel there is a moral obligation on people to provide the finances for themselves and their kith and kin and to pay according to their means. I realise of course that there are people who are unable to pay, but they can very easily be fitted into a national scheme by the State paying entirely for them. At the moment there is an appalling rise in hospital charges. This is not the fault of the hospitals but because we have this curious system of the administration not paying their full share of health charges. This hits the pocket of every person in the country. The smallest imposition of taxation affects those who are least able to bear it. The Minister's reply to that parliamentary question was most encouraging because it directly relates to the local authority charges.

It has been worked out by statisticians and economists that 65 per cent of the increase in rates is due to the increase in the health charges. That is something the Minister for Health must take serious cognisance of because if he does not alter the situation, if Fianna Fáil are still in power and if he is still Minister for Health he will be back here again in 12 months time, no matter what financial arrangements are made in the Budget, in exactly the same position. Every shilling that is put on the back of the taxpayer always comes back on those who are least able to bear it.

The answer to this is to review the whole situation. The British had to do it. They started off with a tremendous idea of free health services, but they are a powerful, rich nation with a much larger population than we have. We have a limited means in this country of collecting money and we have a limited means of getting the funds together to provide an absolutely first class health service. I make those suggestions not in any acrimonious way whatsoever but simply because as a result of 20 years experience in public life—although I have never been on a local authority but I am a medical doctor, although a non-practising one at the moment—I am fully conversant with all those things. Those problems are all brought to me.

I am sure the Minister, if he stops to think, is by no means satisfied with the health services as they are now. There are continuous applications for more money everywhere. There is a sizeable sum for the deficits in the voluntary hospitals. I would be the last person who would wish to see the voluntary hospitals interfered with in any way. They have served a very great purpose and they have managed to keep afloat over the years. The voluntary hospitals have been largely dependent on voluntary contributions. We must realise that today the charitable voluntary effort, although it is still wonderful in this country, is nothing like what it used to be. In bygone days people were not taxed out of existence. Their property was more or less their own and they had far more money to make funds available freely to the voluntary hospitals than they have today.

I will cite a practical instance of this. When I was a doctor practising in the distant past and had occasion to send people to voluntary hospitals and possibly to nursing homes or institutions largely run by religious orders I was in a position to be able to write to the reverend mother or matron in charge of a particular institution and say that so and so was not in a position to pay the full amount. I always found they met me because they trusted me not to swing a quick one on them. I was able to secure the benefit for my patients at a reduced rate. That does not obtain today. If those people wanted to do it they could not do it because those voluntary institutions are subject to all types of State restrictions. If they were taking patients cheaper than the ordinary rate some inspector would come in and they would probably be told that the grant given to them by the State would not be fully implemented. They would be told they did not want it because they were able to take people cheaper than anybody else.

In spite of the extreme generosity they have shown and despite the fact that many of those voluntary institutions are being run by people who do not work trade union hours, religious and nursing sisters, and who do not get any pay whatsoever they are in difficulties. They do all they can for the public at large but find themselves in financial difficulties as well. The voluntary institutions, often backed by powerful committees, are not only running into financial difficulties under the present administrative system but are running into those difficulties just as heavily as the others. When the Minister is replying perhaps he will give us some idea as to how many hospitals are involved. I should not think there are very many. I suppose the deficits which hospitals like Mercer's, the Mater and the Richmond have arise because they have not received sufficient funds during the past 12 months. I take it this Supplementary Estimate covers the period up to the end of the current financial year. The health administration should realise that costs will continue to escalate.

There is no point in criticism without alternative suggestions. Human nature being what it is there are many people who do not save for health purposes even though they will save in order to buy a house. Any Member of this House who has not had his appendix out may suddenly find that he has to be admitted to hospital in order to have this operation. He will be faced with considerable expense if he has not made provision for such a contingency. The Government should provide for compulsory contribution to the health service. When I was a member of the National Health Council I tried to advocate, although I could not get my colleagues to agree with me, that the existing voluntary health service should be incorporated in a major State plan.

The Voluntary Health Insurance Scheme has been one of the great successes of medical legislation. Because of the escalation in costs people who had been adequately insured under the Voluntary Health Insurance Scheme find their coverage is now inadequate. Four or five years ago it was possible to stay in a semiprivate ward for ten or 12 guineas a week whereas today it costs £21 a week to stay in a public ward. The Dublin Health Authority contribute something like £16 or £17 a week but a person in a public ward who is outside the lower income group has to meet extra charges for drugs and things like that.

In a psychiatric hospital, which may or not be more expensive than other hospitals—certainly with modern therapy there is no reason why it should be because people can be controlled against being violent, and the level of staff there is no higher than anywhere else—charges amount to £7 or £8 a week over and above the State contribution.

The aim and ambition of every socialist—the House will appreciate I am not a socialist—is to procure a health service for every member of the community. I want this service provided on a contributory basis. The Minister's reply to my parliamentary question recently with regard to rates was more than encouraging—he said he was thinking along those lines. It is the only way to solve the problem.

There are three grades in the health services: there is the lower income group, the middle income group, which is probably the most disputed group, and the higher income group. There are not many people left in the higher income group now, but there are some. The State should contribute in full to the medical expenses of the lower income group. This will rule out the situation I have just adverted to where, despite the fact that the State contributes £16 or £17 a week to the cost of maintaining a patient in hospital, as the actual figure is in the region of £21 a week, the patient is expected to make up the difference and very often he is unable to pay. The middle income group make a proportionately greater contribution in relation to their income and the higher income group pay the entire cost. Such a system would provide a comprehensive health service and every individual would contribute, as it is his duty to do, towards the medical expenses of his family and those for whom he is responsible. That is the only answer to the problem. Otherwise the Minister will have to continue to come back to the House with Supplementary Estimates and all sorts of plans and schemes to reduce expenses.

If the Minister did adopt that idea, and ultimately the idea will be adopted, not only would he be in the happy position as Minister for Health of giving everybody the services they require, but assuming everybody contributes, a sum of money will accumulate which could be used for new building and so on. Such a scheme would have to be administered by persons having a knowledge of administration and of medical matters. Appointments should not be confined to surgeons in Dublin. Persons who have been in active practice and understand all the difficulties and expense involved in hospitalisation should also be included. The administration of such a scheme by the Custom House would be a disaster. With the best will in the world they do not have the knowledge or the background that parliamentarians should have if they know what is going on around them.

Another matter to which I should like to refer is the uncertainty that exists in medical circles at the moment. New regional health boards are being set up. As far as I know, there is deadlock between the Minister and those who will be the most active participants in the health services, that is, the medical profession. I attended a local meeting in my own county recently—I am still a member as a medical man though I should have been disqualified long ago for non-attendance at meetings—to find out if there is any question of doctors taking the Minister's proffered 15s. The Minister is tied to the amount of money made available to him by the Minister for Finance. In the present situation it does not look as if the Minister's ambition to make the Health Acts fully operative from 1st April will be realisable. The services cannot be operated without the doctors and the medical profession does not seem to be inclined to come in behind the Minister. I am not absolutely up to date on the position, but there are two associations covering 95 per cent of the medical profession.

That is a debatable point.

They certainly cover a very high percentage. My information is that the medical profession are of the opinion that the new health services cannot be put into operation and they have decided to ask the Minister to review the proposed abolition of the dispensary services. There are about 600 dispensaries in the country. At the moment there are 280 vacancies. There are, of course, temporary appointments but, for all practical purposes, the vacancies are unfilled.

I am sure the Minister is aware that the medical profession today is not as popular as it used to be. It has become all too obvious that much better money under more pleasant conditions, perhaps, can be made in other walks of life. The result is there is a considerable shortage of doctors. We exported doctors in the past. That was not such a bad idea because they gained experience and were, therefore, perhaps more valuable if and when they finally returned to settle down here. There is a grave shortage of junior doctors. I do not think there is a local authority now which is not employing an overseas doctor as a house surgeon. There are two in my county.

A temporary appointment is no use to a doctor. If the Minister fails to reach agreement with the medical profession—from my experience of the meeting I attended I think it is most unlikely that such agreement will be reached—then he should revert to the original system, the dispensary system, which served the country very well. There is no use throwing away the dirty water until such time as one has clear water to replace it. Even if doctors accept temporary appointments they leave them the moment something better turns up. We will reach a crisis from the point of view of the supply of doctors.

There are areas in the country known as grey areas and black areas respectively. There are grey areas in Leinster, areas in which doctors will not stay because there is an insufficient private practice. There are three grey areas at the moment in which there has been no doctor at all for a considerable time and people have to travel ten and 12 miles to find a doctor. Why the Minister cannot pay something extra in these areas in which there is limited scope for private practice is something that puzzles me instead of messing about, waiting for the implementation of this new scheme. It is not likely that the scheme will mature for quite some time to come.

The Minister should examine the overhead charges very seriously. The £2,425,000 may look like a sizeable sum but the impact will be negligible. It will reduce the rates in Dublin county by a mere 7p and those in the city by a mere 9p roughly. Most local authorities say the subvention is useless. This should be the red light to the Minister. Even if the sum were three or four times what it is charges would still be too high. The situation is out of control and the Minister must now find some other method of financing the health services.

I join with other speakers in expressing disappointment at the extent of the subvention to health authorities in respect of the burden of rates arising from health charges. The Minister must be aware that the burden is becoming intolerable. In my county we have received a 54 per cent grant but the health rate in Meath rose this year by 4.7p in the £. This is a very substantial increase and is something about which the Minister should be concerned. Over-taxation is something that can always occur and there can be over-reliance on any one tax. The rating system in relation to many ratepayers, if not to every ratepayer, is becoming intolerable.

Kells has been selected as the centre for the new health board headquarters for the north-eastern region. This choice has been greatly welcomed in the town which is in need of development and which has not been expanding as much as many people hoped it would do over the past 20 years. Its choice for these headquarters is a godsend.

It is nice for Kells but geographically it is completely unjustified.

Members of the health board were well aware of the problems in their region and they could take an overall view and are better qualified to decide than the Minister who, understandably, represents one of the counties which are possibly disappointed in this context. The health board can take a much broader view than the Minister who in this context is looking to his own personal political interests in, perhaps, advancing claims of other areas. The choice of Kells can be justified on geographical as well as social grounds. There is no need for me to go further into the matter because the health board have done so much more capably than I could. I should like to ask the Minister when the funds will be available for the erection of this headquarters, how long it will take before the building is erected and also where the funds will come from.

I cannot answer that question because we are discussing an Estimate for the past year. This is a Supplementary Estimate. We are not discussing next year.

I understand. I hoped that the Minister would be able to give the information as——

If heavy expenditure is required I will not sanction it. The Deputy had better know this. If heavy expenditure is warranted it will not be sanctioned.

If heavy expenditure is warranted it will not be sanctioned?

If it is required for a building it will not be sanctioned.

So the Minister will not sanction expenditure for a building even though it is required?

Not heavy expenditure for a new building. A large expenditure for a new building would not be sanctioned anyway.

That is very interesting. It looks as if the Minister has set up a health service based on regionalisation and he is not prepared to supply the necessary finance for buildings which are required to house the administrative machine in the regional centre. That is a complete mockery of the House and of the time we spent discussing the regionalisation of the health services. If this——

On a point of order, Sir, may I ask if the question of the health boards comes into the supplementary provision which includes an additional sum of £100,000 to meet the cost of establishing health boards?

It does not include any buildings whatever. It is only for getting the health boards going in this financial year.

The Minister has set up an elaborate system of regionalisation and now he is not prepared to provide the money to erect the buildings to house the people in the regional centre. It looks as if he is sabotaging his own Act because how can you have regionalised services if you cannot provide an adequate regional centre? However, I do not want to prejudge the Minister's attitude. Perhaps his intervention is not representative of his true attitude. I hope in due course a more favourable line will emerge and that expenditure for any necessary buildings will be sanctioned.

I cannot claim to have an intimate knowledge of this subject and therefore I cannot go further than this but I hope the Minister is not going to starve regionalism of the necessary funds and thereby make nothing of the time we spent in arriving at a regional health service. I should also like to know the position in regard to mental hospitals under the new health boards. Over the years County Meath has made a very substantial investment in the mental hospital in Mullingar and Mullingar is now part of the midland health region and therefore is excluded from the region of which Meath is part. Meath will be at the loss of the investment which ratepayers have made over the years in this hospital.

The Meath patients can continue to go to Mullingar.

I am aware of that but ratepayers will cease to have any interest in the property and this valuable property will cease to be an asset of the ratepayers. A suggestion has been made to me, which I am not in a position to support with evidence, that Monaghan County Council which is within the Meath-Louth-Monaghan-Cavan regional health area propose to sell portion of the grounds of the Monaghan mental hospital, the proceeds from which will go not into the regional fund but to the Monaghan County Council direct. You have the position then of one county coming into the north-eastern region at the loss of valuable property and you have another county selling off part of its property in advance of inclusion and benefiting from it. I understand that there was a report in the Anglo Celt about this but I did not have time to look at it, but if this rumour is correct it would appear inequitable in the extreme. It would be placing a further burden on the Meath ratepayers or putting them at a disadvantage.

The Deputy should ask a parliamentary question about it. I cannot deal with it on this Supplementary Estimate.

I may well take up the Minister's suggestion. There are other matters to which I should like to refer particularly in reference to subhead L here which relates to the dissemination of information on health and health services. It is a very important function in the field of public health. Many people who have more knowledge than I in the medical field will agree that information about the various hazards to health can save people from illness, which is much better than curing them when they have already got the illness.

Possibly the area in which the greatest need at the moment lies is in the field of dental health. I understand that school children and their parents are not being alerted to the extent that they should be to the danger of tooth decay consequent on eating sweets and not washing their teeth subsequently. In my county, for instance, there are two dental officers. They go around the schools occasionally and, perhaps, give a short lecture to the children about the danger to dental health. In some schools there are, in addition to this, posters put up alerting children to the danger but in general the promotion of knowledge among the parents and the children about the dangers to dental health is not as vigorous as it should be.

It has been estimated, first of all, that in regard to the dental health officers the ratio should be one dental health officer per 2,500 children. The situation in Meath is roughly one dental officer per 6,000 children, and these dental officers also have to care for adult patients, so quite clearly their role as dental health officers with regard to children is much less than it should be. They simply do not have the time because of their other commitments. I realise there is a problem in attracting dentists to the public health service, and I hope the Minister will take every measure possible to cope with this problem as quickly as possible before yet another generation of children leave school with bad teeth, with consequent discomfort and other problems later on in life. I hope also that more money will be allocated by the Department for the promotion of knowledge among children and among the public generally of the need to wash teeth regularly to prevent decay. This is much better than just filling up the cavities when they arise.

There is another aspect of health which is worth mentioning and that is one which, I suppose, has been spoken about more than any other, the danger of smoking. There is a case to be made for placing a warning on the packet of cigarettes telling people the danger of smoking. I know the Minister is considering this and I would like to add my voice to that of others in this context. I cannot speak with nearly as much knowledge as others who have spoken on the subject.

One danger to which I should like to draw the attention of the House is in relation to the psychology of advertising. Any advertisement which is so macabre that it makes people afraid can have the reverse effect to the one sought. If you terrify people with an advertisement, instead of stopping them from smoking you will make them so nervous and so frightened that they will close their mind to it and continue smoking. We must try to put forward a rational, calm, careful advertisement which sets the facts before the people without terrifying them. That will have greater effect than pictures of coffins, dead bodies and so forth.

Our campaign is constructive.

I am not making any criticism of the Minister's campaign. I am merely making a general observation which might be of help to those who are interested in this work. I am sure there are others as well as the Minister who are taking an active part in dealing with this problem. There is need for giving more information to the public about what precisely are the ailments which can result from smoking. Most people link smoking with cancer and go no further. They are not aware there are many other ailments. If this information were made available it would greatly strengthen the case. I understand bronchitis, emphysema and coronary thrombosis can result from smoking. I am not a medical man but there are numerous other ailments which should be made known.

Especially as advertisements associate smoking with athletic prowess.

It has been estimated that being a regular smoker lessens one's life by approximately six years. I hope the information on this subject will be put forward on a broad front by the Department in the way most likely to have the desired results.

It is also worth mentioning that a smoker who lives in a city and in an atmosphere of ambient air pollution is more vulnerable than a smoker who lives in the country. The sulphur dioxide in the city atmosphere adds to the problem created by the tobacco smoking by the person who lives in the city, whereas the person who lives in the country is breathing fresh air when he is not smoking and this alleviates the problem to some extent. I hope the Minister will bear this factor in mind in directing his advertising campaign.

Another problem which concerns many people is that of the mentally handicapped. There are two areas of great difficulty here, one in relation to the moderately mentally handicapped and the other in relation to the severely mentally handicapped. The difficulty in relation to the moderately mentally handicapped is not only that of the provision of schools, on which I think more money should be spent, but also, as the children in this case would be living at home, the provision of transport for them. I have had occasion to intervene in this regard and there has been very great difficulty in getting agreement to provide the necessary transport. There may have been particular problems in relation to the cases I have mentioned but I hope nothing will be spared in providing places in the schools and also transport to those schools, because of necessity the schools which will be erected will not be very numerous around the countryside. Since there can only be a small number of them, transport will be very important. I hope, therefore, that a special effort will be made to provide transport in this area.

The other problem is in relation to severely mentally handicapped children. I realise that the problem in this area has come to light to a much greater extent in the recent past than heretofore because more of these cases are now being located by the health authorities than were located in the past. It would appear that we are merely unearthing a problem that had existed on the same scale. I hope that the Minister will adopt a phased and steady approach of providing more places each year for the severely mentally handicapped because if these children remain at home, great problems are created for the parents and for the other children in the family. I hope that it will be possible to provide 50 or even 100 more beds each year to cater for these children.

There are 455 beds being provided in the coming year.

That is very good.

I should like to wait for the Minister's main Estimate before dealing with the many aspects of the activities of his Department which could be discussed here because it is always a help to have his Department's assessment of what would seem to be their rate of progress so that one could measure it against one's own experience.

There are a couple of points in which I am interested in particular. One of these is in relation to the information service and, in that regard, in relation to the question of the diseases caused by smoking tobacco. As the Minister is aware, I have been speaking about this problem for a long time, since 1956 or 1957 in fact. In 1964 I brought in a Bill which recommended the inclusion on cigarette packets of a warning of the dangers of cigarette smoking. This problem is a very difficult one for any Government. I do not think anybody would doubt the real difficulty that would be created by a serious programme directed towards reducing the incidence of cigarette smoking in the community. In the first place it would be impossible to force people to stop smoking cigarettes. They must be persuaded to do so. Secondly, the financial repercussions to the Exchequer of such a programme would be catastrophic from the Government's point of view unless they could find some alternative source of revenue.

Therefore, this question must create a very serious moral problem for members of the Government, in so far as they must be aware that this is no longer a question of speculation. They must be aware of the consequences of permitting the promotion by advertising companies of cigarette smoking. This habit results in illnesses such as those mentioned by Deputy Bruton, lung cancer, thrombosis and others which in some cases are very crippling diseases. It would probably be agreed that the finest intellects and talents in the whole business of advertising are concentrated on promoting the sales of tobacco and alcohol. Are the Government to permit this advertising to continue? On many occasions the Minister has shown an impatience in relation to this whole matter. I suspect there is a considerable element of guilt in his irritation and in his dismissal of the idea that one can do anything very much to reduce the incidence of cigarette smoking within the community. I have no illusions whatsoever as to the great difficulty involved but the Minister must admit his own inconsistency when he becomes particularly active and critical and condemns in most forthright terms the use of drugs of one kind or another, particularly the use of hashish by the young. However, there is no doubt but that both the consumption of alcohol and the smoking of cigarettes are infinitely more damaging in their effects in that they affect many more people in our community—at least that is the position at the present.

If the Minister is to be critical about the use of drugs and at the same time, to be logical, he must bring in legislation directed towards reducing the incidence of the drug abuse problem but he must accept that he has comparable powers in relation to cigarette smoking. One of the interesting things about hashish, for instance, is that according to a well-informed body of opinion, it is not likely to do any serious harm except when it is abused as is the case with most other forms of pleasurable experiences. Therefore, whatever the Minister may tell us here and however he may defend his position as best he can—I suppose as a politician he has to do that—as a person and as an individual he also has this moral responsibility to understand as far as he possibly can in an unbiased and unprejudiced way, that he is dealing with a human problem, the effects of which on the community are completely unknowable.

We know that it is possible to persuade people to do practically anything if we set about it in a clever way. The tobacco and cigarette advertisers are able to make people go on smoking cigarettes long after they know they are likely to cause these dreadful diseases. If the Minister were to adopt similar stratagems, or if he were to present them using these very clever advertisements, then I think he would possibly have discharged his function as the Minister in this Department.

Advertisements for cigarettes are directed more and more to young people. It is suggested that smoking is the fashionable thing to do. There are, of course, the usual very powerful sexual undertones in the use of the phallic symbol, the cigarette, in order to persuade youngsters that this will in some way be influential in whatever affairs they may be involved in. It is a very subtle and sophisticated from of advertising. As we can see by looking around any crowded cinema or anywhere else it is particularly effective. It has worked extremely well.

For the individual to get off smoking is a terribly difficult task indeed, as any of us knows who has had to get off it. For that reason, therefore, people who try to get off cigarette smoking should get every help. Far from getting every help the position is quite the contrary. Television, newspapers, posters, all continue to tell them that this is a most healthy and exciting pastime. The Minister's counter-propaganda activities are completely ineffective.

It would be outrageous for him to spend the same amount of money as the tobacco companies on a counter-advertising programme while leaving them to go ahead with their advertising. That would be a silly waste of money. I really believe that he should extend the ending of tobacco advertising on television to the newspapers. It is possible that there is some device such as that suggested by Deputy O'Connell whereby the newspapers could be helped in the difficult job they have these days of keeping a newspaper going without high advertising income.

The Minister is convinced—and he does not seem to be able to get away from the belief—that if you concentrate on young people you will be successful in stopping them smoking and then your problems will be over largely. The most powerful incentive for a youngster to smoke cigarettes, as the Minister should know, is not really advertising, and pictures on television, and so on—probably the most powerful influence is the father or the mother smoking, the fact that the adult is smoking. If we accept that the behaviour pattern of the child is one which is assimilated from its environment and, in its environment the most important people are the mother and the father, the teachers and various people of that kind, figures of authority of that kind, as long as they are seen to be smoking cigarettes then the child thinks it is a good thing and it is permissible.

The Minister must understand that. He must know that is really the way we like to believe, at any rate, that young people grow up: by watching us and our example and then they are good people, and well-behaved. Therefore, it is very difficult to say to a child: "In relation to everything I have taught you today, or everything you have learned from me, there are a couple of things I should like you to forget and one of them is the fact that I smoke cigarettes." It just does not work that way. Therefore, while it is desirable to educate young people, it requires great subtlety too. As Deputy Bruton said, you can frighten people into smoking.

I should imagine that one would have to take advice on how to do this. To some extent possibly ridicule could be of more help than anything else. Very few of the tough men and tough women one sees smoking cigarettes know, probably, that one of the alleged unconscious needs for a cigarette is that a person still needs the mother's breast and that, in fact, emotionally, he is rather an immature person and has not been fully weaned. Therefore, the sucking of a cigarette and, indeed, the pipe, is the residuum of an unconscious need for the mother. That is just one explanation. There are others, the simple imitative one, of wanting to be adult looking and so on, but it is one of them. Quite obviously that put against the pictures of the football players, and the skiers, and the tobogganers, and the racing car people, puts a completely different complexion on it. An approach of that kind could be more valuable, or could be of some value anyway.

I just want to try to emphasise it to the Minister. I suppose he is trying to find an explanation self-consciously or otherwise, by saying: "I am going to the schools, putting in leaflets, and showing pictures. I will educate them and I will be safe and they will be safe which is much more important." That is not so. There are many components in the effective dissuasion—and I want to make it clear that I never proposed that an attempt should be made to stop people smoking cigarettes compulsorily—of people from smoking.

The most fascinating phenomenon since 1954-55—and incidentally this most interesting piece of research and investigation was started by a couple of general practitioners—has been the fact that in the medical profession there has been a very dramatic drop in cigarette smoking. We are not better than anybody else and we have no more self-control than anybody else but I think we have been very much more frightened because we are so much more in contact with the end results.

The sufferer from lung cancer, the bronchitic, the coronary or the heart disease patient drops out of society and nobody notices very much but when he drops out of society he drops into one of the hospitals and that is where we come across him. That is the evidence which has probably frightened most of us into giving up a habit which we all enjoyed very much. For what it is worth this is one brand of their own medicine which the medical profession have been prepared to take themselves.

We in the Labour Party have a Bill, which may get support from another party, which proposes the inclusion of a warning on the cigarette packet similar to that advised by the Inspector General in America in his report some years ago. The American cigarette packet now carries this warning. The Minister dismissed this idea as being futile, an extraordinary word to use. It is certainly not what I would like to do and not what I would do if I were in his position but it is worthwhile taken as part of a composite of a number of different approaches to the counter-campaign to the very wide use of cigarettes in the community. The forbidding of cigarette smoking in cinemas, which is a most offensive habit to those of us who do not smoke, is another measure the Minister should have introduced. This is now observed in theatres, I am glad to say. On public transport and wherever the Minister has the right to intervene in semi-State companies he should do so. He might be able to advise his colleagues to contribute, where they can, towards the total scheme of propaganda which he might devise. It is not suggested that the warning on the packet or on the advertisement, if advertisements are still allowed, is the only thing to be done. It is not that alone. It is only part of a very comprehensive programme which the Minister has a serious moral responsibility to introduce without further delay. I was very surprised to get that answer from the Minister.

He referred me to the recommendations made by the Director General of the WHO. He made a number of recommendations similar to those mentioned by all of us here from time to time. One of his recommendations was precisely this one, that a warning that tobacco is dangerous should be carried on the outside of a packet. Since we agreed to the report of the commissioner which dealt with that it seems strange that the Minister should dismiss the proposal as being futile. I should like him, if he would not mind, to re-read the recommendations made by that commission and try to see that as many of them as possible are implemented.

The Minister must know that there is a continued increase in cigarette smoking in spite of the dreadful facts elicited by one report after another unequivocably established now. After the last report there was a temporary drop in the number of people smoking cigarettes and now I understand the rate is back to where it was before. It is no good to say to the unfortunate people who smoke cigarettes and find it difficult to stop: "Give them up because you know they will give you lung cancer." The reality is they do not do that and they must have cigarettes. Far from getting help to give them up they are getting continuous incitement to keep on smoking.

The Minister for Health has a serious responsibility to these people, to try in some way to convey to them, as effectively as it has been conveyed to the medical profession, that this is a very dangerous habit indeed. The Minister must try to explain to himself why it is that he can get up and lecture youngsters and be very critical of them for taking drugs and bring in the very rigid, restrictive legislation he has brought in in relation to amphetamines and other narcotic drugs, which we welcome here, and at the same time refuse to discharge to the full his responsibility to the whole community in relation to cigarette smoking.

I suspect he simply cannot say: "No smoking. No advertising." He would probably find it impossible to do those things overnight but he can make very much more progress than he has done up to the present. The first thing he must do is to clear things in his own mind. I think he has a very definite block about this whole problem. In his heart he knows quite well that he should do something about it. As a working politician he knows it is damn difficult to do anything about it from the financial point of view. There must be some compromise position which he can take up which will allow him to do much more than he is doing at present. He will be happy to know that this is not any wild socialist proposal. Sir Gerald Nabarro, the epitome of the Conservative Party, has a Bill to this effect in the House of Commons at present.

I must sound like a terrible Mrs. Grundy but I feel that something should be done about the advertising of alcohol on television. The Minister should look into the exploitation of this terribly powerful instrument of education, perverse education, if you like. They are doing now with alcohol what they did with cigarettes some years ago when they had teenagers predominating in their advertisements. This is now happening in relation to alcohol. They are mostly tough young men like football players and you are not a man unless you drink, whatever drink they happen to be drinking. That is irresponsible of us as a community because young people are influenced by these advertisements. Alcoholism is quite a terrifying problem now. The Minister and everybody knows this. It is one of the worst problems, from the emotional point of view, with which we have to deal. It is one of the greatest sources of crimes of violence, broken homes and disharmony among families and the end product is the unhappy child. We take alcoholism far too lightly. No one can object to a civilised drink. There are many publicity campaigns nowadays using race meetings, football matches, walks, sailing, and all sporting activities as advertising devices and linking these with drink. There is too much unhappiness and distress in the community for us to continue to accept as normal the drinking rate in Ireland. The intoxication rate here is amongst the highest in Europe. We should worry much more about it than about anything else.

When doctors are asked to speak publicly they are often asked to speak about drugs. There is a case stated for saying that hashish is quite harmless as a drug. There is no doubt that the amphetamines, barbiturates and the narcotics are dangerous. In ordinary practice doctors come up against much serious illness caused by cigarette smoking and alcoholism. Still, very few people want to hear about either of these subjects or what should be done about them. When youngsters go into public houses and drink, and then get into trouble and end up in the courts we should accept responsibility because advertising is positively directed towards the youngsters and towards driving them to assert their manhood by drinking and smoking. These things have become virility symbols. There is obviously an element of neuroticism in most of the people who abuse these two things but at the same time these people can be helped. The Minister and his predecessors have helped people who are tortured by the need for the narcotic drugs such as barbiturates and amphetamines. I appreciate the Minister's difficulties. I want him to know that I am looking at the problem from a medical point of view. Enough has not yet been done. The problem must be approached on a number of fronts.

What has happened about the forensic psychiatrist? The Minister says that he cannot ask the Local Appointments Commission about this. The Minister has asked them questions for me on a number of occasions. I do not accept that he cannot ask about this matter. There is a difference between talking to the Local Appointments Commission and trying to influence them in making a particular decision, and asking them why they have not made this very important appointment. There are sizeable problems facing those of us who are dealing with the expansion in the problems of adolescent delinquency of one kind or another. There are various reasons for it—the changing neighbourhood environment, the working mother, the disappearance of the extended family caused by tearing up family roots from one part of the country and people finding themselves in an urban society, the fact that there are many emigrant fathers and children growing up without a father effectively, the question of overtime and the fact that the father hardly sees the children at all, the lack of recreational facilities as described on the "Seven Days" programme—all these things are failures on our part to provide properly for the youth of our country. We will see the results of such failure in the next five or ten years. There will be thousands of young people who will create enormous difficulties for our community unless we do something about them. There is a tremendous difference between the quality of the facilities made available to young people of different backgrounds. Some young people can avail of swimming pools, recreation centres, community centres and playing fields while the children of working-class parents cannot. There is a difference between the facilities available for the children of working-class parents on the one side and those available to more wealthy youngsters in colleges such as Belvedere and Blackrock on the other side. I want to see such facilities extended to working-class children. Something should be done from the point of the emotional health of these youngsters. The Minister should try to see that a forensic psychiatrist is appointed anyway. He would then have the advice of a person who could tell him with authority what should be done. There is probably no such specialist in the country at the present time. Such a person could assist and advise the Minister about the working-class estates. He could be of help to the Minister and to society generally on the whole question of criminality about which the Minister for Justice was talking the other day. Discussions could be held on the whole idea of criminology and the penotogical system and the whole idea of attempting to help these unfortunate people who find themselves in conflict with the law. There is conflict about the punitive idea that people are criminals and must be punished. I disagree with that idea. Such people have an emotional problem and they should be helped.

The structure of our community would be helped by the advice of a talented forensic psychiatrist. Nobody wants these youngsters. They are very difficult to deal with and very unrewarding because most of the time there is very little one can do for the difficult child or adolescent criminal, if you like to call them that; it is a side of our service that is non-existent. These patients are very destructive, very aggressive, they will assault one and very few people care to have anything to do with them. If the Minister would press for the making of this appointment so that he could get advice as to the best way of dealing not only with the existing problem, which is very considerable, but also with what I believe to be the potential problem. I should be glad if the Minister would say what steps he proposes to take because he knows as well as I do that the Local Appointments Commission, a body I have frequently praised here but which I have never been able to praise for the speed of its action, for its own very good reasons—mostly concerned with making fair appointments—is extremely slow. Is the Minister going to go through the whole process again? If he is, does that mean that we shall have to wait another year or 18 months before this appointment is made? When we come to the main Estimate I should like to deal with it in greater detail but I should be glad if the Minister would give serious consideration in the meantime to these two small points.

This Supplementary Estimate which provides a certain amount of money for health authorities for the relief of health charges at present levied on the rates is a pathetic effort—I am sure this has been said already—to provide sufficient money for the local authorities to enable them to give a satisfactory service to the people in their areas.

Part of the increase in the Supplementary Estimate is the £1,350,000 for staff employed in voluntary hospitals. In the next line of his introductory speech the Minister says that these increases are unavoidable and reflect increases in remuneration throughout the economy generally. The operative word is "unavoidable". The Minister has, perhaps, at last come to realise that if some increase was not given to the nurses, the nursing service would have rapidly collapsed. The Minister is also aware that the position had become intolerable as regards newly-qualified nurses who were living outside hospitals and were barely able to exist because of the increasing cost of food, fares and accommodation. These increases were unavoidable. Even though the increases were minor compared to those secured by other sections of the community they may have represented a fairly large percentage increase in the pay the nurses were getting. At the same time the Minister will agree that it is impossible to consider adequate financial remuneration when speaking of the nursing profession and the great vocation which calls these girls to that cause. One of the greatest things we have is the dedication and integrity of our nurses. It is unfortunate that in the past years this should have been completely ignored by the administrators. The Minister said here before that he does not want to interfere with vocational groups. I appreciate that. Where a vocation is concerned it is impossible to put a value on the type of service given but the Minister will also appreciate that we should not capitalise on vocations. If a person is giving his best for humanitarian purposes he should not be victimised by financial restrictions or by being ignored when the cost of living soars beyond his means.

The figure that has been mentioned here of £1,350,000 is one of the most important figures in the Supplementary Estimate although a very minor amount compared with the total required in the Supplementary Estimate because it meant that so many nurses in training and newly qualified could stay in this country and give the service they are trained to give to the public in their own country and were not forced to emigrate. But I think this is a stopgap increase and that very soon the Minister will be faced with a further mass exodus of nurses. We in the profession see on many occasions newly-qualified nurses getting visas for the US or going to Glasgow or England. Invariably, the country loses the cream of its nurses. This is tragic because this is perhaps the only country in the world that could have the nearest thing attainable to a perfect health service. We are the only country with sufficient nurses to staff our hospitals, with a surplus of doctors graduated from medical schools and we have, perhaps, one of the highest ratios of hospital beds per head of the population in the world. With these three factors I think we top the list of countries that could come close to providing a perfect health service.

Also we have an independent and unique type of income through the Hospitals Trust and, in the days when Deputy Dr. Browne was Minister, this enabled tremendous reforms to be made in the health service. The country is eternally grateful to him for the work he did in the eradication of tuberculosis. But it is tragic now to see that all this work is being overlooked to a certain extent and that the great strides made in the late 50s in medicine here have ceased and that no further progress is being made. In fact, I think it is fair to say that the health services in this country at the present time are perhaps worse than ever they have been over the past 25 years. There is a complete breakdown of one of the most important sections of the health services, that is the front line troops, the general practitioners. There is a complete breakdown along the western seaboard of this country where the Minister has stated that he cannot state the number of dispensary posts which are not filled by dispensary doctors. He cannot state the number of dispensary posts which are not filled by temporary doctors and he has not been able to answer a parliamentary question with regard to the number of dispensary posts which are unfilled in the counties of the western seaboard. He stated those figures were not available to his Department at that time.

We have a top-heavy health service in the Dublin area and we have one of the poorest health services in Europe in the western area of the country. People in Dublin are inclined to be introverted as regards health services and to complain about the unavailability of hospitals within one or two miles of where they live but very little thought is given to the people who live in the rural areas who have no hospital facilities whatsoever. They have only district hospitals which have very little facilities. There are also areas where the front line of medicine does not exist at all. There are areas like this in Counties Donegal, Kerry, Galway, Clare, Mayo and Leitrim. The whole western area of this country is deficient in its front line contact with sick people. This is a tragedy and is something which I feel could be tackled in a logical manner.

I think the Minister has come to realise that there are areas where there will not be a free choice of doctor under the health scheme but he should give consideration to advising local authorities to bring into existence scholarships which could be used by duly qualified people under income investigation. Those scholarships would have tagged on to them that the graduates concerned would give three to possibly five years service in a dispensary area, the choice of which would be left to the local authority in that particular area. This would mean that the boy leaving school would be granted a subsistence allowance and free education in one of the national universities. When he qualified he would return this investment to the community which sent him to the university to get his degree. He does this by giving his services at the standard rate or at a reduced rate in a dispensary area which the local authority would choose. This would not involve a lot of money but it would result in a dramatic increase in the efficient staffing of local authority dispensaries in those areas where, as the Minister knows, there are very few dispensary doctors.

I would like to refer to the statement which the Minister has made that even if costs have to rise we will give the community full value for every penny which is spent. I do not think that the full value is being given at the moment although it is no doubt the Minister's intention to give full value. The dispensaries in some of the urban areas are abused to a very large extent by some people. In a Dublin area where you have a number of people who are unable to meet their rates and who do not qualify for the waiver of rates scheme, that patients should be seen leaving dispensaries with hair shampoo, sun tan lotion, hand cream and toothpaste would suggest that we are going a bit too far as regards subsidising the patients. One can argue that if people cannot afford to keep their hair in order they should be provided with an anti-dandruff shampoo. Dandruff being a medical disease, sunburn being a medical disease and tooth decay coming within the bounds of the Department of Health, I do not know how this can be overcome but I think it is tragic to see people walking out of dispensaries with those items and in some cases getting into motor cars and driving home.

The Deputy should inform the Dublin Health Authority that toothpaste is not permitted under the medical guise and only cream for dermatitis is permitted for the hair. I hope the Deputy will inform the health authority or the chemists who are doing it that this is not permitted.

The Minister has not mentioned anything about the hair shampoo.

That would have to be a special hair shampoo for somebody body with trouble in the hair. It could not be an ordinary vaseline shampoo, as far as I know, but I will make inquiries.

I suppose the best thing I can do is to bring examples of this to the health authority. In regard to the possibility of the Government, of which the Minister is a member, going a step further with the provision of medical implements in dispensaries, I say this would be most unfair to the ratepayer. It is better to nip something in the bud rather than wait and say: "We told you so."

I want to take this opportunity of mentioning to the Minister that if he partakes in any discussions in the near future with regard to the introduction into this country of contraceptives available on medical prescriptions, thereby being defined as a medical implement, it would mean that the ratepayer would be subsidising contraceptive implements through dispensaries. I want the Minister to be quite clear on this. There is no way the Minister can propose to do this other than by using it as a health implement in the same way as hair shampoo, sun tan lotion and other things can be put under the guise of health accessories. The Minister would be making a great mistake in trying to legislate at any stage in the future for the provision of contraceptives——

The Deputy appreciates that we are only dealing with expenditure on the administration of the health services up to 31st March this year.

This is not a major Estimate debate. It would take five weeks of parliamentary time if every Supplementary Estimate were treated as this Supplementary Estimate is being treated where every single Deputy is introducing points about the health service.

At the present time every single person is talking about the health service being financed through the rates and the hardship it is causing them.

The Deputy can only refer to the rates because part of this Supplementary Estimate has prevented the rates from going up still more. What I was suggesting is that it would be impossible to get through parliamentary business if we were to have on a Supplementary Estimate a debate on the entire health service.

I appreciate the Minister's views. I will not dwell on the matter. Suffice it to say it would be a terrible thing if the rates were increased because the Minister brought in some new provisions. It is far better to discuss the matter before it happens rather than after it happens.

I should like to refer to the availability of drugs through dispensaries and hospital pharmacies. I am sure Deputy Dr. Browne will agree that it is possible for a person wishing to procure a large quantity of tranquillisers to go to different general practitioners in the city and be referred to 12 different psychiatrists in 12 different hospitals in the city and by mimicking common day anxiety symptoms, obtain from these psychiatrists tranquillisers, sleeping tablets and other such tablets, which they can sell to youngsters. The medical profession is concerned about the freedom with which a person can do this and about the complete secrecy in which they can do it. The Minister's Department should investigate this problem because it is a potentially dangerous one.

No one knows the degree to which this is going on but it is not unusual to see teenagers, with a supply of heavy tranquillisers or sleeping tablets, taking them into public houses. The most popular to my mind is the Vallium 10 milligrams which they call the "Blues" and the soporific drug called Mandrax, which they have not given a name to as yet. They are taking these disinhibiting type of drugs with drink.

The Minister's Department should investigate the existing law as regards heroin, LSD and marijuana to see whether I am correct in stating that the maximum penalty for possessing heroin is six months imprisonment and a £50 fine and for possessing marijuana, which is not nearly such a lethal drug, the fine is £100.

The Deputy should ask a parliamentary question about that. I have not brought that kind of information with me for a debate on a Supplementary Estimate.

Alcoholism amongst the female section of the population is greatly increasing. The numbers of secret female drinkers have increased in the past decade. The availability of alcoholic drinks at reduced costs in supermarkets have played a contributory part in this. The medical profession are also aware that many tonics prescribed through health authority dispensaries contain a large amount of alcohol.

In view of the seriousness of alcoholism and in view of the rapid increase in the incidence of alcoholism amongst the female section of the population, it would be appropriate to put a label on tonics which contain 10, 15 or 20 per cent alcohol, stating the following: "Caution, this bottle contains a percentage of alcohol and should not be taken by anybody who is on treatment for alcoholism." The Minister will appreciate that many people being treated for alcoholism take a tablet called "Anti-booze". If even a small amount of alcohol is taken while that tablet is being taken a person can have a violent reaction which may in some cases lead to death.

In this Supplementary Estimate we are providing a contribution to the Dublin Health Authority for their drug treatment centre in Dundrum. Far too many household commodities contain aromatic compounds with hydrocarbon, which is a brain stimulant. One of the commonest of these is a preparation known as "Dab-it-off".

Does the Deputy really want to advertise this to the children? Could he not write about this privately to me? I deprecate the action of any Deputy who advertises wellknown products, which can be purchased in supermarkets and shops, which have hallucinogenic effects in children. The Deputy should speak to me about this privately. It is most irresponsible of him to bring it up in the Dáil.

I appreciate the Minister's sentiments and the alleged irresponsibility of bringing this up in the Dáil but the Minister must be aware of the ready availability of medical compounds, which I shall take the Minister's advice and not mention. The Minister must also be aware that certain ordinary soft drinks contain stimulant drugs. It is better and more responsible to say something like that here rather than have a matter like this bandied about at ladies' clubs and youth clubs all over the country by people who have no medical qualifications. I appreciate the Minister's sentiments and I shall not mention trade names, but the Minister must make some effort to curtail the number of people going around the country lecturing to youth clubs; in particular, he must curtail the person who says: "I went into a room and I saw 20 or 30 teenagers running around naked and they were taking such-and-such." Naturally the teenagers to whom the person is speaking have their curiosity aroused. The Minister is taking no action in this and if something is not done, I shall continue to raise it here until such time as something is done and I will name the commodities.

I congratulate the Minister on his action in withdrawing some of the stimulant drugs—dexedrine, methedine, benzedrine—from the market here. That was a progressive step and we are one of the few countries which took it.

To my knowledge it is no crime for anyone to manufacture LSD and give it to his or her friends. Marijuana is being grown in this country. I said this here two years ago. I repeat it now.

There should be greater co-ordination and co-operation between Departments. One cannot divorce the Department responsible for housing from the Department responsible for health. The centrally heated high rise flats in Ballymun are causing an increase in respiratory diseases, particularly in children, and a higher incidence of emotional disturbance and suicide. Mental illness results in increased charges on the health services. There should be more collective responsibility. It is no use the Minister trying to make people healthy and keep them that way when the Department responsible for housing does the exact opposite.

The Minister was asked before to appoint a group of qualified people to investigate the incidence of respiratory illnesses in centrally-heated local authority dwellings. In the Finglas No. I dispensary area there has been an increase in respiratory illnesses, a 30 per cent increase in the incidence of such diseases in children. This naturally increases the cost of health services. The lessons that should have been learned in Ballymun have not been learned because the same pattern has repeated itself in St. Michael's at Inchicore and out in Coolock. I have reports from both Norway and Switzerland to the effect that there has been an increase of over 33 per cent in respiratory illnesses due to central heating, and this was central heating on which there was some method of regulating the temperature to individual needs. There is no method of regulating the temperature in our units. It seems ridiculous that a Department should actually do something which contributes to ill-health.

Again, the Department of Education should come into the picture too. Children at five years of age are now going out to school to mix with other children for the first time in their lives. This is not a good thing. The results will begin to show themselves very quickly. There are no playing facilities in these high rise dwellings and, therefore, no proper medium of communication. We will find ourselves with adolescent problems ultimately the like of which have never been seen in Europe. The Department of Health should ensure that adequate preventive measures are taken in time by coordination with the Department of Local Government and the Department of Education to prevent this problem occurring.

I should like to refer to the fact that last June we had a Budget which put 2½ per cent on the price of drugs for human beings—men, women, children, old age pensioners—and yet allowed drugs for budgies, canaries, cats and dogs to be tax free.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
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