Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 27 Apr 1971

Vol. 253 No. 4

Suspension of Standing Order 46 and Modification of Standing Order 87: Motion.

Mr. Cosgrave

I move:

That notwithstanding anything contained in Standing Order 46 of the Standing Orders relative to Public Business, the motion in the name of Deputy Liam Cosgrave regarding Mr. James Gibbons, Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries, may be moved in Private Members' Time on Tuesday, 27th April, 1971; and that notwithstanding anything contained in Standing Order 87 debate on the motion shall be brought to a conclusion at 7.30 p.m. on that day by the putting forthwith from the Chair of the question necessary to bring it to a conclusion.

The purpose of moving this motion, which is similar, if not identical, to a motion put forward on behalf of the Taoiseach on the 29th October last, is to enable a matter that has directly or indirectly been the subject of discussion in the House to be considered within the rule known as the six months rule. The circumstances in which I have put down this motion at the present time is because of a document sent to the Committee of Public Accounts by the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries which would appear to conflict with information given to the House in May last. I, at this stage, do not propose to elaborate on the terms of the document, because I think Deputies have already seen it and members of the Committee of Public Accounts are aware of it. The matters that were the subject of discussion here as recently as May last are sufficiently fresh in the minds of Deputies not to need repetition. However, because of the apparent conflict between the terms of the communication addressed by the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries to the Committee of Public Accounts and the statements made, both by the Minister, and by the Taoiseach on behalf of the Government as well as on his own behalf, on a number of occasions, in particular on 14th May, 1970, I submit the requirements of Standing Order 46 should be suspended. This should be done for the purpose of discussing the motion which has been tabled in my name and which is referred to in the motion I move now. Because of the advent of financial business with the proposed introduction of the Budget tomorrow, it is unlikely that time will be afforded in the immediate future for Private Members' Business and, accordingly, I submit that this particular motion is necessary to suspend the Standing Order to which I have referred, and to enable the matter to be discussed and put not later than 7.30 p.m. this evening.

Mr. Corish

We have wasted a lot of time and we have created and demolished a number of precedents. It is just as good that we should get some kind of decision on this as quickly as possible. The motion was ruled out of order; it now appears to be in order. In any case, I was under the impression that there was a discussion between the Fianna Fáil and the Fine Gael Whips, that they had agreed to take this motion tonight in connection with the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries and that, by agreement, it would be concluded tonight.

What happened in between I do not know. The Ceann Comhairle said he gave as his ruling that this particular motion was out of order in view of the fact that there was a motion of no confidence in members of the Government some time last autumn. However, things have happened in between. If a Member of this House wants to single out in a motion of no confidence a Minister, no matter who he may be, and if there is serious reason for doing this, I think it should be allowed. There have been conflicting evidence and statements between the Taoiseach and the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries in recent weeks. These things must be cleared up. For that reason, the House should agree to take this motion so that members of the Government party and members of the Opposition will have an opportunity of expressing their opinions and expressing them by way of vote.

The events that are occurring in Fianna Fáil are known to the public and they cannot be cloaked forever. We all know that the motive of the Fianna Fáil Party is to try to stick together. If the Taoiseach believes he has the confidence of his party—there were some cracks in it last week—he should be prepared to take the motion now in connection with Deputy Gibbons, Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries.

The Taoiseach

I appreciate the contributions by the leaders of the Opposition parties and that they have not gone into the merits of this matter because I think that is only proper when we are discussing a simple motion to suspend Standing Orders. First, to refer to Deputy Corish's understanding that there was agreement, I mentioned already that the Fine Gael Whip's Office rang the office of the Parliamentary Secretary to the Taoiseach and informed his private secretary at 25 minutes to 6——

Mr. R. Burke

That is not correct. It was about ten minutes to five o'clock.

The Taoiseach

In any event I shall give the Deputy a present of whatever time it was. They informed the private secretary that a certain motion No. 18, which is the substantive motion to which this motion to suspend Standing Orders refers, was the one selected by Fine Gael, as was their right under the arrangement for the taking of Private Members' Business. It was suggested subsequently in a newspaper—I do not know on what grounds they made the suggestion—that it was agreed that this motion would be taken this evening and that it was further agreed that it would be put at 7.30 p.m. notwithstanding that there would be at least one-and-a-half hours yet for that motion to run according to normal practice. There was no such agreement. Apparently the Ceann Comhairle interpreted the situation as there being no agreement and under the six-months rule—which provides that a matter already decided within the House may not be debated again by motion until after six months have elapsed——

Mr. P. Belton

One week to go.

The Taoiseach

I did not interfere in any way with the other speakers; I think I am entitled to the same courtesy. As six months have not elapsed the Ceann Comhairle ruled that the matter was not in order. This motion has been on the Order Paper for several months past. It was open to Fine Gael at any time to suggest that the motion be debated. In any event, we would have resisted it and, no doubt, the Ceann Comhairle would have ruled as he did today.

The substance of that motion dealt with statements made by Deputy Gibbons, as Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries, in this House last May. I submit that that was what Fine Gael wanted to debate. Deputy Gibbons, myself and the other members of the Government are prepared to stand over it. In addition to that, in a motion of confidence before this House last November, I specifically included every individual member of the Government in that motion. We got a vote of confidence on that occasion.

I am not one whit afraid of the outcome of any debate concerning the statement that I made to this House last May that I had exhaustive inquiries made and that I was satisfied from these inquiries that public moneys were not used in the purchase of illegal arms or in the purchase of arms that might be illegally imported into this country. That statement was made not only following exhaustive examination in the Department of Finance——

Mr. O'Higgins

Is this relevant to the matter we are discussing?

Mr. Colley

It is as relevant as what Deputy Cosgrave said.

Mr. O'Higgins

It is not relevant.

The Taoiseach

All right, I will desist from it with one more statement. Not only did I make my statement following that examination but on a written statement from the head of the Civil Service. That is available for inspection. I did not refer to it before this but as Deputy O'Higgins objects I will not pursue this. There can be a division now on whether this motion will be taken this evening. I am prepared to stand by the division now as an indication of the strength of this party.

Motion put.

The Dáil divided: Tá, 61; Níl, 67.

Tá

• Barry, Peter.
• Barry, Richard.
• Begley, Michael.
• Belton, Luke.
• Belton, Paddy.
• Browne, Noel.
• Bruton, John.
• Burke, Joan.
• Burke, Liam.
• Burton, Philip.
• Byrne, Hugh.
• Clinton, Mark A.
• Cluskey, Frank.
• Conlan, John F.
• Coogan, Fintan.
• Esmonde, Sir Anthony C.
• Finn, Martin.
• Fitzpatrick, Tom (Cavan).
• Fox, Billy.
• Governey, Desmond.
• Harte, Patrick D.
• Hogan O'Higgins, Brigid.
• Jones, Denis F.
• Kavanagh, Liam.
• Kenny, Henry.
• L'Estrange, Gerald.
• Lynch, Gerard.
• McLaughlin, Joseph.
• McMahon, Lawrence.
• Malone, Patrick.
• Murphy, Michael P.
• Cooney, Patrick M.
• Corish, Brendan.
• Cosgrave, Liam.
• Cott, Gerard.
• Coughlan, Stephen.
• Creed, Donal.
• Crotty, Kieran.
• Cruise-O'Brien, Conor.
• Desmond, Barry.
• Dockrell, Henry P.
• Dockrell, Maurice E.
• Donegan, Patrick S.
• Donnellan, John.
• Dunne, Thomas.
• Enright, Thomas W.
• O'Connell, John F.
• O'Donnell, Tom.
• O'Donovan, John.
• O'Hara, Thomas.
• O'Higgins, Thomas F.
• O'Leary, Michael.
• O'Reilly, Paddy.
• O'Sullivan, John L.
• Pattison, Séamus.
• Ryan Richie.
• Spring, Dan.
• Taylor, Francis.
• Thornley, David.
• Timmins, Godfrey.
• Tully, James.

Níl

• Aiken, Frank.
• Allen, Lorcan.
• Andrews, David.
• Blaney, Neil.
• Boylan, Terence.
• Brady, Philip A.
• Brennan, Joseph.
• Brennan, Paudge.
• Brosnan, Seán.
• Browne, Patrick.
• Browne, Seán.
• Burke, Patrick J.
• Carter, Frank.
• Carty, Michael.
• Childers, Erskine.
• Colley, George.
• Collins, Gerard.
• Connolly, Gerard C.
• Cowen, Bernard.
• Cronin, Jerry.
• Crowley, Flor.
• Cunningham, Liam.
• Davern, Noel.
• Delap, Patrick.
• de Valera, Vivion.
• Dowling, Joe.
• Fahey, Jackie.
• Faulkner, Pádraig.
• Fitzpatrick, Tom (Dublin Central).
• Flanagan, Seán.
• Foley, Desmond.
• Forde, Paddy.
• French, Seán.
• Gallagher, James.
• Geoghegan, John.
• Gibbons, James.
• Gogan, Richard P.
• Haughey, Charles.
• Healy, Augustine A.
• Herbert, Michael.
• Hillery, Patrick J.
• Hilliard, Michael.
• Hussey, Thomas.
• Kenneally, William.
• Kitt, Michael F.
• Lalor, Patrick J.
• Lemass, Noel T.
• Lenihan, Brian.
• Loughnane, William A.
• Lynch, Celia.
• Lynch, John.
• McEllistrim, Thomas.
• Meaney, Thomas.
• Molloy, Robert.
• Moore, Seán.
• Noonan, Michael.
• O'Connor, Timothy.
• O'Kennedy, Michael.
• O'Leary, John.
• O'Malley, Des.
• Power, Patrick.
• Sheridan, Joseph.
• Sherwin, Seán.
• Smith, Michael.
• Smith, Patrick.
• Timmons, Eugene.
• Wyse, Pearse.

Tellers:—Tá: Deputies Byrne and Bruton; Níl: Deputies Andrews and Meaney.

Motion declared lost.