Deputy T.J. Fitzpatrick (Cavan) gave notice that he would raise on the Adjournment the subject matter of Question No. 44 on today's Order Paper.
Private Members' Business (Resumed): - Adjournment Debate: County Cavan Vocational School.
(Cavan): At Question Time today I asked the Minister for Education if he would explain the delay in giving the County Cavan Vocational Education Committee authority to proceed with the erection of a vocational school at Tullymongan, Cavan, and if he would make a statement on the matter. In his reply the Minister stated that the committee wished to build the school on a site at Tullymongan and that his Department thought it should be built on another site and there the matter rested. I was completely dissatisfied with that reply and for that reason I raise the matter on the Adjournment.
For many years past the County Cavan Vocational Education Committee have been satisfied that the existing school in Cavan town is inadequate. As far back as 1963 the then Minister agreed with the committee. He sanctioned the provision of a new school and authorised the committee to procure a site. The committee experienced some difficulty in this matter but in 1966 they purchased a site from Cavan UDC at Tullymongan on the Dublin road immediately beside the town.
It was considered by practically everyone that this was the most suitable site. It contains approximately 12 acres, which means there is plenty of space for playing grounds and for the extension of the school in later years should this be necessary. The site is situated near the Royal School, which is a co-educational establishment. It is beside the Poor Clare Convent, a girls' secondary school which caters for many pupils, and the site is within a reasonable distance of St. Patrick's boys' secondary school. The site at Tullymongan is in the immediate vicinity of factories, such as the Cavan Engineering Company which it is hoped will provide good employment in the not too distant future. The site is beside the firms of Cavan Crystal Limited and Breffni Textile Limited. Three large garages which employ many apprentices are nearby. The site is near two post-primary education establishments and it is also located in the industrial zone of the town.
The purchase of the site was sanctioned by the Minister for Education in 1967. It cost £7,000 and the committee were authorised to have plans drawn up. An architect was appointed with the sanction and approval of the Minister; plans were prepared for a 30-room building and, after discussion with the Department, these plans were approved.
To date, the committee have spent approximately £11,500 on the purchase of the site and on the preparation of plans. The committee then sought sanction from the Department for the preparation of working drawings, which is the last step preparatory to inviting tenders. At this stage—late 1967—the Department appeared to stall but no suggestion was made to the committee that the building should not proceed at Tullymongan. As the Minister is aware, in relation to the building of a vocational school, the committee select the site and the Department approve or reject it. In this case the Department definitely approved of this site.
As Vice-Chairman of the Vocational Education Committee for the county and as Deputy for the constituency concerned, on 10th June, 1970, I put down a question asking the Minister to explain the delay in proceeding with the erection of a school. To my surprise, and to the utter amazement of the members of the committee, I was informed by the Parliamentary Secretary that there was a question of another site. After putting some supplementary questions I was informed that the site was in the grounds of St. Patrick's College. This is about 1½ miles from the present site, more than a mile from the Royal School and about a mile from the Poor Clare Convent. Apparently negotiations regarding the second site had been proceeding for some time over the head of the committee. Here I should point out that when the committee advertised on two occasions for a site, the site at St. Patrick's College was not offered on either occasion.
It had been reported in the newspapers that a 30-room vocational school was to be built at Tullymongan and I fear the authorities in St. Patrick's College were afraid that this new technical school would interfere with their enrolment. I can understand that but I think their fear is completely unjustified. In the new conditions, with free post-primary education, it is obvious that more and larger buildings are required. At this stage I should like to pay a tribute to the religious orders of this country who provided post-primary education in years gone by and made a good job of it at a very reasonable cost to the State.
However, different conditions obtain at this time. We are now concentrating on vocational education and we are providing for a much greater number of pupils. I do not believe St. Patrick's College have anything to fear from the vocational school. In the vocational school in Cavan a priest is released to provide full-time religious instruction there and I thank the Minister for having sanctioned that arrangement. The other religious denominations, Church of Ireland, Presbyterians and Methodists, also provide religious instruction in the school.
The committee have given full consideration to the Minister's proposal to change the site. In this case the proposal came from the Minister, not from the committee. That is the only part of this whole performance that seems to be a bit unsavoury. The committee were not consulted. They were not given an opportunity to select the site. The committee have given full consideration to the proposal to change the site on a number of occasions and decided unanimously to proceed with the school at Tullymongan for a number of reasons.
In the first place, the site which we have obtained and paid for at a cost of £11,500, including architects' fees, is the most suitable site in or around Cavan town. The site at St. Patrick's College which was mentioned is very much up in the air as far as the committee are concerned. We wrote to the authorities of St. Patrick's College asking a number of questions. We also wrote to the Department. We asked whether this school would accommodate boys and girls, whether it would provide full technical education, whether it would provide for juveniles by day and adults at night. We received a letter to this effect:
The members of your committee are apparently unaware that a draft scheme of co-operation between secondary and vocational schools on a nation-wide basis is at present being prepared by the Department of Education. In the circumstances it is obvious that it would be premature and inopportune to anticipate the Department's plans and it is equally clear that, until the details of the proposed association between the post-primary schools have been formulated by the Department and studied by the interested parties, no final decision can be taken in regard to the acceptance or the rejection of any or all of the methods of co-operation suggested and the offer of a site and the conditions pertaining thereto.
We also sought information from the Department about the new school, as to whether the site at St. Patrick's College would be large enough to provide a regional college later on. We were told that that did not arise and, generally speaking, we got no satisfaction from the Department. The whole thing seems to be up in the air. In fact, a resolution was passed at the March meeting of the Vocational Committee and forwarded immediately to the Department. When no reply had been received one month later, the Vocational Education office telephoned the Department to learn that not only had the Minister not received it, not only had the Minister's secretary not received it, but the resolution passed by the Vocational Education Committee had not reached the head of the section dealing with it. Was it thrown in the waste paper basket or was it treated seriously?
Vocational education is becoming of great importance in this country. Eighty-five of the jobs to be secured, we hope, over the next number of years will come from manufacturing industries which will require trained personnel from the vocational schools. The draft report for the North Eastern Regional Development Organisation has this to say—and I know the Minister agrees with what I am about to say now because we discussed it across the House before:
The greatest increase in new jobs in the region in future years will be in manufacturing industry. This would indicate the need for a much higher proportion of national school leavers to obtain technical and vocational education rather than secondary education if they hoped to obtain jobs at home or in the region. A significant change in attitude to the vocational education system whereby a much higher proportion of primary school leavers would choose technical education would be a major factor in solving migration and emigration problems in the region.
Ninety per cent of the school leavers in Cavan seek post primary education because it is a poor county. Only a fraction of them seek third level education. I believe this is a plan to downgrade vocational education in County Cavan to the absolute detriment of the students in that county and, as a result, they will be deprived of jobs in industry which we hope will be available in the years to come.
There is another problem. We have a religious minority problem in County Cavan. There is a sizeable minority of members of the Church of Ireland, Presbyterians and Methodists. The Protestant Bishop of Kilmore, Most Rev. Dr. Moore, and the religious minority, are very apprehensive that, if this school is built in the grounds of St. Patrick's College, it will not be a nondenominational school in spirit or in fact. That is something we should guard against because the vocational school is the only school which is fully non-denominational at present. Religious instruction is given to all creeds and classes.
We really cannot understand the Minister's attitude or the delay in sanctioning the provision of the school. If this school is built where the committee want to build it—and I may tell the Minister now where the committee will insist on building it—it will be on an excellent 12 acre site. It will serve the girl pupils of the Poor Clare Convent which is very near it. It will serve the boys and girls from the Royal School which is the nearest school to it. It will also serve the Loreto College and St. Patrick's College if they want to avail of it. I believe—and I think the Minister agrees with me because we discussed it across the House —that from now on the emphasis must be on vocational education. There will always be the people who will want to avail of the traditional academic education and there will be plenty of institutions for them. They can avail of that education in the secondary schools.
This site was purchased and paid for. This very necessary vocational education establishment in Cavan town has been held up unreasonably over the past three years. The Minister saw fit to discuss alternative proposals without discussing them with the committee. The committee cannot be said to be anti-anything. The chairman is a Canon of the Catholic Church. There are representatives of the religious minority on the committee. The committee were prepared to discuss these matters with the Minister but, for some reason or another, all this talk went on over their heads and behind their backs. I did not bring this matter up hastily on the Adjournment. I discovered this proposal of the Minister's as far back as 10th June last. We have made every effort, through correspondence, through parliamentary questions here, and otherwise, to get the Minister to see reason, to get him to talk, to get him to have a meeting of all concerned.
Nothing like that has been done. This is bad for education in Cavan. It is bad for co-operation in Cavan. The reasonable thing to do is to go ahead with this vocational school in Cavan. There are four other post primary education establishments none of which, I emphasise, is providing any instruction in vocational or technical subjects. It is not unreasonable to say that, in this county town, a county in which 90 per cent of the pupils seek post primary education, we should have an adequate vocational school to cater for the needs of all the people of the town and to ensure that there will be people available for the industries in the town, because I know that, as a result of the inadequacy of our vocational schools and our vocational system there, the town and county are suffering in failing to attract as many industries and manufacturing concerns as we would otherwise attract.
I might begin by repeating what I said in reply to a supplementary question here today, that is, that the overriding consideration must be the provision of the best possible educational facilities for the children of Cavan. If the vocational school in Cavan has to share a range of activities with any school in Cavan town, then the school with most to offer in relation to the co-operative aspect is St. Patrick's College.
The Deputy must realise that the introduction of free post-primary education in 1967 changed the whole future position and brought to the forefront the necessity for co-operation. In the case of the boys, in particular, it is necessary that a core of practical as well as academic subjects be available and this can be done in Cavan by siting the new school in the St. Patrick's College grounds. Deputy Fitzpatrick said that considerable emphasis should be laid on vocational education, particularly in relation to boys. This is exactly what we are doing here, because we are not only making vocational education in the practical subjects available to the children who will attend the vocational school but we are also seeing to it that these practical subjects will also be on offer to St. Patrick's College.
(Cavan): What about the Royal School?
The location of the new vocational school beside the boys' secondary school will enable us to provide better facilities for the children of Cavan and will ensure that the pupils in both of these schools will have first-class facilities available to them. It is most unusual to have objections raised by one post-primary school to being located beside another post-primary school. As I have said here on many occasions, it is our aim in all parts of the country to locate post-primary schools as close as possible to one another, because we have found that one of the biggest obstacles to co-operation is the distance between schools and the ensuing loss of time for teachers and pupils in commuting between the various schools; and also because there can be time-tabling complications. In many parts of the country this is recognised and both vocational and secondary schools have been very willing to implement this policy. As I say, it is extraordinary to find a public authority objecting to something like this.
(Cavan): Would the Minister explain why he sanctioned the site at Tullymongan?
The Deputy is very well aware that considerable changes have taken place in the whole field of education in recent times because of the introduction of free education. Let me mention the main practical advantages of locating these schools beside one another. First of all, there is the sharing of specialist facilities such as halls and gymnasiums and provision for practical subjects, science rooms and so on. The movement of pupils and teachers is made very much easier and the formation of a joint class for subjects for which there is a very big demand is encouraged. The boys in the secondary school—and I want to emphasise this—have easy access to the practical subject provision in the vocational school. There is the sharing of specialist teachers. It is also very important that subject specialities can be developed within each school to which the pupils of the other school have access.
It is very important to stress that this new school will be a vocational school under the management of the County Cavan Vocational Education Committee. The question of the Protestant children has been raised here by Deputy Fitzpatrick. I want to point out clearly that issues such as the admission of Protestant pupils and the provision of adult education and other community activities simply do not arise here. These are all normal in vocational schools and any suggestion from any quarter that the new school in Cavan will be restricted in any way has no foundation. I want to stress that the vocational school in Cavan will be under the management and control of the County Cavan Vocational Education Committee. The fact that we would prefer to have it sited in the grounds of St. Patrick's College on a site which, of course, will be bought, does not alter this.
I would again ask the County Cavan Vocational Education Committee to reconsider this whole matter. It should be obvious that both schools will benefit very considerably from the fact that they will be in close proximity to each other. This would in fact do what Deputy Fitzpatrick has in mind, that is, to make available education in practical subjects to the young people in St. Patrick's College as well as in the vocational school.
(Cavan): Would the Minister say why he or the officers of his Department did not consult the committee between the date of sanctioning the plans for Tullymongan and rejecting the two sites at St. Patrick's College?
There evidently has been a considerable amount of correspondence between the Vocational Education Committee and my Department. However, we should not quarrel on the question of the site as such. What we should seriously concern ourselves with is the question of where we can locate this vocational school so that it will be most effective in providing further educational facilities for the young people in Cavan. From all the examination I have made of this matter it is quite obvious to me that, because of the very large number attending St. Patrick's College, the facilities will be made available to far more people, and particularly to boys, by siting it there than by siting it anywhere else.
The Dáil adjourned at 11 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Wednesday, 28th April, 1971.