asked the Minister for Social Welfare if he intends taking any steps to extend the specified area in County Cork where farmers can apply for unemployment assistance on land valuation assessment.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Unemployment Assistance for Smallholders.
18.
As I indicated to the Deputy in a previous reply on 3rd June, 1970, the Government when fixing in 1965 the geographical limits for the amended scheme of unemployment assistance for smallholders adopted substantially the same areas as those recognised by the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries for the pilot area and other similar schemes administered by that Department. These areas represent in the widest sense of the term the congested areas of the country where the small farm problem is concentrated and the difficulties of the small farmer are, generally speaking, more acute and the volume of wage-earning employment available is lowest. In the circumstances I do not propose taking any steps with a view to extending the present generous limits of the scheme. It is, of course, inevitable that in any scheme of this nature the geographical limits—irrespective of where the line of demarcation is drawn—will cause some dissatisfaction in bordering districts which are not included in the scheme.
Is the Minister not aware that the demarcation lines were clearly set out when the scheme was introduced assessing means and valuations in certain parts of the country and the areas covered were those included in the development areas in connection with which county development teams were appointed to make recommendations? Is he not further aware that this has applied in all areas with the exception of County Cork, that 11 counties in their entirely are included, and that the area in County Cork is restricted to not more than one-third of the area deemed to be an undeveloped area in accordance with the county development plan? That being the case, surely the Minister would agree there is justification for extending the area in County Cork.
The Deputy is almost correct when he says Cork is the only area in which the whole county is not included; West Limerick is another one. At the time of defining what is popularly known as the congested districts this question arose, and there were a number of precedents for this: we had the Purchase of Land (Ireland) Act, 1891, and the Irish Land Act of 1909. Then there was the much wider definition of congested districts as recorded by the Department of Agriculture for their scheme. We took the widest of the three possible definitions available to us, that is, the agricultural one. Not merely that, but in so far as it might not have extended to cover all of what was originally defined as a congested district we brought in extra areas to the Cork area to supplement the congested area. The Deputy has been seeking to have it extended to parishes. I examined this as a result of this question this time last year.
That has all happened. I gave the Minister 12 months, and I am giving him no longer now.
There is no legal definition of a parish boundary, whereas there is of a county electoral area or an electoral area. This does pose a problem which would not be so easy if we were to decide to change what I think was a very generous definition of a congested area even in relation to the part of Cork county that is involved.
Will the Minister not agree that 11 counties which are included in their entirety were not deemed to be congested areas according to the old regulations? Is he aware that a number of farmers deemed to be within the area covered by the Twelve Western Counties Scheme are precluded from applying for unemployment assistance by virtue of the limitation imposed on them by the demacration line drawn up by the Department of Social Welfare? If he is so aware, will he not take steps to rectify this grave injustice? As a final question, may I ask why then should not the borders of the 12 western counties apply? There is a clearly defined part of County Cork deemed to be within the 12 western counties. I can produce the map for the Minister. It is defined in the same way as the 11 western counties are defined. My view is that that clearly defined area which is deemed to be in the 12 western counties should be included for this unemployment assistance scheme.
I do not know what definition the Deputy is talking about.
The 12 western counties, defined in the official jargon of the Department.
For what purpose?
For all purposes. Is the Minister not aware that 12 county development teams were set up some five or six years ago and that the teams comprised holders of posts from the different counties? I myself was a member of the Cork team for three years.
This is a long discussion.
I am saying the farmers of that area in Cork deemed to be in the 12 western counties are entitled to apply for unemployment assistance on the land valuation assessment basis.
No. 19.
I shall have to give notice of raising this on the Adjournment, something which I do not like doing.
The Chair will communicate with Deputy Murphy.
If the Minister would reply now we could avoid that. I do not want to be taking up the time of the House.
The last time the Deputy asked this question about the definition of the congested areas, I was prepared to discuss it with him.
Will the Minister discuss it with me privately next week?
I gave the Deputy this undertaking before and he did not avail of it.
The Minister will agree that floors Nos. 1 and 2 are confined to Fianna Fáil Deputies mainly.
That is not so.
That is so. We have no right of access. However, if the Minister agrees to discuss this with me next week I will bring the map and the other information I have to him. Otherwise I shall be putting it before the House on the Adjournment. Will the Minister not give his word publicly, say yes or no? I will have it privately or publicly. Are we having this meeting privately?
It is immaterial to me. I can meet the Deputy. I was prepared to meet him before and I had no request.
Will the Minister meet me privately on this? If he does not I will give notice next week of raising this on the Adjournment.
It would be necessary then for the Deputy to give notice during a sitting day next week.
I have an ever-open door.