Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 8 Jun 1971

Vol. 254 No. 7

Committee on Finance. - Firearms Bill, 1971: Committee and Final Stages.

Sections 1 to 5, inclusive, agreed to.

SECTION 6.

Question proposed: "That section 6 stand part of the Bill."

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): On this section, and arising out of the points raised by Deputy Briscoe, the Minister should avail of this opportunity to appeal to persons in possession of illegal firearms to hand them in. Deputy Tully said it was being stated by, I think, one of the people who conducted an inquiry in the north-eastern part of the country that he had no doubt there were far too many illegal arms lying about. If there are any illegal arms lying about here—and undoubtedly there are—it is highly desirable they should be handed in and put out of circulation.

It is hard to discuss this sort of thing perhaps without being accused of being controversial and party political but there is no doubt—and I have tried to get this across as sophisticatedly as I could—that in the past few years there has been muddled thinking on the question of firearms and their use and people generally could be excused if they came to the conclusion that even within the Government party and even within the Cabinet there was divided opinion on this subject. That is why I say that it is not fair to people who in that way are encouraged or might be encouraged to possess firearms for use in one place or another or one purpose or another.

I think therefore the point made by Deputy Briscoe is a very valid one which deserves to be considered by the Minister. Before the Bill is signed by the President it should be made public that there is this 14 days of grace for people either to apply for a licence or to hand in the firearms. It is very easy in the conditions which have been prevailing here to have a certain amount of sympathy for people who have been misled or misguided, and if this little discussion has done nothing more than to clarify national thinking on this point it would have done a lot of good.

Mr. Tully

In the mid-twenties all the republicans appeared when all the trouble was over, when the civil war was over, when the rebellion was over. The country was full of republicans. Similarly at the present time we have republicans in the country again, people who call themselves republicans, but if there was necessity for their services they would be as scarce as they were in 1916.

For that reason, I have grave doubts if giving grace to people to hand in weapons will have much effect. People who have no use for those weapons would have handed them in already and will hand them in after the passing of this Bill without danger of charge. The people who have arms and intend to use them will not avail of any amnesty. It may be considered wrong to say this, but we are in the unfortunate position that where there is a period in which there is not likely to be a national call to arms those people will talk about their patriotism and their republicanism. I know during the emergency years how few of those people were prepared to offer their services to the State and I have been told how few were prepared to do it when they were needed before that time.

For that reason the Bill should have been aimed not at those who have no further use for their arms but at doing everything possible to collect arms, ammunition and explosives from those who want to use them or who say they want to use them, which is a different thing. I take issue with the Minister on his interpretation of the provision in regard to 14 days. Is it 14 days from the date on which the President signs the Act? The provision states:

This Act shall come into force on the 14th day after the date of its passing.

The normal reading of such a provision is that it comes into operation at a certain time after it is deemed to have been passed by both Houses of the Oireachtas. It has not been signed by the President at that stage. I imagine there is some slight misunderstanding here.

If somebody thinks it will do some good to give a period of grace I have no objection but I submit that every possible method should be used peaceably, if possible, to obtain possession of arms and ammunition which are in the hands of those who have not got them for good purposes.

Mr. O'Malley

I shall deal with Deputy Tully's point about the precise meaning of subsection (4), to the effect that the Act shall come into operation on the 14th day after the date of its passing. Oireachtas Éireann consists not just of two Houses, Dáil and Seanad, but also of the President so that when a Bill is passed by both Houses it is by both Houses only and not by the Oireachtas. It becomes passed by the Oireachtas only when it is signed by the President.

Mr. Tully

I take the point.

Mr. O'Malley

In that sense, my statement that the Act shall come into operation means when it is signed by the President. For that reason, the 14 days will begin when the President signs the Act rather than on the day when it has been passed by both Houses.

With regard to what Deputies Fitzpatrick, Tully and Briscoe have been saying about an amnesty, I want to make it clear that when I talk about a 14-day period after the passing of the Act, in that 14 days there will not be a full amnesty in the sense that no law will prevail in relation to firearms. What I mean is that the new law will not operate during that 14-day period but people will continue to be subject to the existing law. There will be an amnesty in relation to the possession of component parts under the Bill because they are not subject to the existing law. Possession of component parts will not become an offence until the 14th day after the signing of the Bill.

I do not want it to be felt that in that two-week period there will not be any law in respect of firearms. There will be, but the more onerous provisions of this Bill will not come into force. I appeal to people who may have military type weapons, possibly legitimately procured in that they or their forefathers acquired them during the War of Independence or in the LDF— maybe they were not meant to but they seem to have—to hand them into a Garda station and I am sure the Garda in each case will use their discretion. An alternative is that if the arms are made permanently ineffective —possibly by drilling a hole in the barrel—the need to obtain a firearm certificate does not arise.

Mr. Briscoe

On a point of clarification, do I understand properly when I say that, if a person at the moment hands in a gun, the Garda in their discretion may decide not to prosecute or to prosecute? What I understand by an amnesty is that anybody holding firearms who brings them along during that period will not be prosecuted for having them in their possession. The Minister says that under existing law a person can be prosecuted for having a firearm with a certificate. During the amnesty period they will still be subject to prosecution under the old law, or does the Minister mean that nobody will be prosecuted who brings along a firearm.

Mr. O'Malley

Nobody would be prosecuted under this Bill, or Act as it then will be, but the operation of the existing law during that limited period will not be affected. However, I think Deputy Briscoe can assume that if any citizen comes along during that period to a Garda station and says he has a firearm, he has not got a certificate and he wants to hand it in, while strictly speaking the Garda should prosecute, I think that unless they have some good reason to do so, in the circumstances the Garda might be lenient.

Mr. Tully

Any time.

Mr. O'Malley

With regard to the suggestion that we have a general amnesty, we had one before, although I cannot give the precise date now, but what I do know is that what we got was not in fact what was wanted. I could not declare a general amnesty in that way.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): It might be better not to go into that and all its aspects.

Question put and agreed to.

Title agreed to.

Bill reported without amendment, received for final consideration and passed.