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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 29 Jul 1971

Vol. 255 No. 16

Prohibition of Forcible Entry and Occupation Bill, 1970: Report Stage (Resumed).

Debate resumed on amendment No. 8:
In page 3, line 34, to delete "encourages or".
—(Deputy T.J. Fitzpatrick(Cavan).

The centre of our contention, that which divides us from the gentlemen opposite, can be very simply expressed in a few words and it is this: The Minister says that "encourage" equals "incite", all incite, nothing but incite, incite is already part of the law, encourage equals incite. We say something quite distinctly different. We say "encourage" equals "incite" plus many other things which are not in the law now. I gave some examples of other things. That is to say, of terminology, definitely weaker than "incite" but included in "encourage". Language which extends a net would be put in the hands of this Minister if we were not to press this amendment and if we were to consent to this section.

We have been accused of filibustering on this section and possibly that charge will be made on my remarks to this amendment; that is why I want to establish what I, in particular, am doing here. Our contention being "encourage" includes "incite" plus. I am out to establish the "plus" by definite, investigatory, exploratory action. The plusses include so far such terms as "to embolden", "make confident". That is much more than "incite". "Inciting" is getting a person with deliberate intent to do a certain thing, but if one emboldens a person one makes him confident and one cannot be quite sure what a person will do when one does that. A man who becomes confident may do anything, he may do some wise, courageous things and one would not know what it is. It is vague. One's whole relationship to the person he encourages is vague, whereas the whole relationship of incitement is precise and it is because it is precise and because it is binding that the Minister does not want it. He wants something that will enable him to catch in the net somebody whom he cannot catch at the moment. He wants all the vague usages. To embolden and to make confident are other extensions of the word "encourage"; yet other extensions include to recommend or to advise which may be nearer to the meaning of incite depending on what is in sight. These are colder terms than incite. They have less of a flavour of pushing somebody about.

Then, there are very much weaker usages—to stimulate by expressions of favour or approval which means that falling short of telling A to go and commit a certain crime, one gives some expression of general approval of him and his friends. If, for example, one were to say that the Dublin Housing Action Committee were not a bad lot, that their intentions were good, that they were drawing attention to a very real problem, that they were an idealistic group and that they were diverting energies which might otherwise have gone into military efforts into non-violent channels, he might well be emboldening them or making them confident. Certainly, he would be cheering them up and giving them a good deal of countenance in their activities. Countenance is, essentially, not to discourage. If one fails to say that the Dublin Housing Action Committee are a group of scoundrels who engage in crime which is what the Minister wants everyone to say, one is countenancing and, therefore, falling within the meaning of this blanket word "encourage".

Supposing one does not even embolden them or give them confidence or does not countenance or patronise them but just allows them to continue, one does not go out and get them but just sits and does nothing, he is encouraging them and consequently, technically, he falls within the scope of this word. I am pointing out that these meanings are not included in the word "incite". This is very important —a person falling far short of inciting, say, this group or any other group to engage in forcible entry, far from inciting them, if he gives them any form of encouragement at all he is encouraging them even by allowing them to continue to exist. That to us is extremely undesirable.

In a moment I shall pass from "encourage"—I have almost completely explored the word but there are still one or two corners of it which I must clean up before moving on—to the word "incite" which the Minister says is synonomous with "encourage".

Before leaving the word "encourage", would the Deputy agree that it could be taken that a nod of approval is "encouraging" also?

I take Deputy Flanagan's point. I think it is. If I wave cheerfully at the Parliamentary Secretary he might take it that I am encouraging him or giving him confidence regardless of whether that is what is intended. I may be embolding somebody without ever knowing that I have done so, for instance, by something I have written which somebody may read differently to what I intended. That brings me within the net whereas the inciter, the man envisaged by certain statutes, is the man who knows all about it. He wishes people to squat in buildings. He wants other people to run risks which maybe he will not run himself. The Minister claims there are such people. Maybe there are but I think that most of the people who incite these actions are willing to partake in them themselves. That is my impression but it does not matter very much.

Before I finish dealing with "encourage" and move on to the word "incite" and other words that are relevant to "encourage" I should like to refer to one kind of objection made. No objection has yet been made specifically to this amendment but a type of objection has been made which I think will be made, too, to this amendment. This objection, essentially, is this: we can count on the courts to see that everything is all right. It does not matter if we put bad and loose words in the laws that we make here because anything goes and the courts will see that everything is all right; they will not read any of the meanings that we have read here and they will carry on and administer the law in the way in which the Minister for Justice would have us believe he wishes it interpreted which, in fact, I do not think is the way he wishes it to be interpreted.

With respect we consider this to be a very bad, a very unsound and a very dangerous approach to legislation. Our task here is to make the law precise and not to put into it any words that are vague whose extent and coverage is like the one we are considering. We should construct the law as precisely and clearly as we can with the advice of the Deputies here who have legal training and with the advice also of those Deputies who have no such training. This is precisely what this amendment is aimed at because we cannot count on good judges to correct bad legislation. This is an entirely wrong principle. A judge must take the meaning of the words used here and he has to interpret them but he is bound by the Statutes we pass here and, of course, judges are human beings. We respect our judges in this country.

Could the Deputy not say all he has said in the last couple of hours in a few minutes? He is only wasting the time of the House.

Deputy Cruise-O'Brien.

We could refer the Leas-Cheann Comhairle to Standing Orders.

The public want this Bill. We will be here and we will listen to the Deputy but he is only codding himself.

(Interruptions.)

Deputy Cruise-OBrien. Interruptions are disorderly.

The Deputy wants to make a record with his marathon performance.

Interruptions are disorderly. The Chair has said this before.

Could we have a ruling on Standing Order No. 47?

We are listening to repetition and repetition and repetition.

No, no repetition.

He has been repeating himself for the last couple of hours. He could say it all in two succinct sentences.

(Interruptions.)

Would Deputy Timmons desist from interrupting? Deputy Cruise-O'Brien.

I thank you for calling on me but it is impossible for me to persist if this gentleman is allowed to continue. How can I go on?

Could we have a ruling on Standing Order No. 47?

The Chair will interpret Standing Orders.

We would like an interpretation.

The rather sedentary contribution we have just heard is the only contribution, as far as I know, that my colleague from Dublin North East has made on this debate and I think we can proceed without him.

I was making the point that we cannot rely on good judges to correct bad law. That is not their function. They are there to interpret and administer the law as they find it and if we make bad laws the better the judge the worse the effect will be. It is true, and we do not want to pretend that there are elements in our case that are not there, that the word "encourage" here will not bind any judge to go beyond "incite". There are judges who may be inclined to say: "We take this as generally equivalent to "incite" but judges are not so bound and they are not bound either by anything that the Minister for Justice may have said in this debate. That all becomes irrelevant once we have passed the law. The Minister's intent is not in question. It is what the law says.

What would "encourage" do in effect? We do not want to make impractical, insubstantial, pedantic points. It is a question of what effect it will have. The effect it would have on a judge who wished the law to move in a certain direction, who thought, for example, there should be a firmer hand with the Press, that there should be a clamp down on certain things. Such a judge, a judge perhaps of conservative temperament, a judge whose ideology and background had been formed by that party over there or by the more conservative wing of that party over there. I am not attacking anybody here, I am speaking of an upright judge who wishes to administer and interpret the law as he finds it, who will not go beyond the law but who will, being human, adopt that interpretation of an ambiguity in the law which suits his inclination, his general philosophy of life.

There are such judges on our benches. As in every country there are judges who are relatively liberal and such judges would not give "encourage" much scope beyond the area where it actually does overlap with "incitement".

There are also judges who are of conservative philosophy and frame of mind, equally honourable, equally just, judges but possessing this philosophy which thinks that the freedom of the Press has been abused and ought to be limited. Those judges, if we leave the law at "incite" would, being as we believe them to be just judges, be bound by the meaning of "incitement" but if we change "incitement" to this tremendously vague word "encourage," if we give them that, then we give those conservative judges, a free hand to clamp down. Even our most conservative judges would not wish to gag the Press altogether. The Bill will not have all the most terrible effects that we perhaps in the flights of our horrors described. It is more limited than that but it does enable conservative judges to clamp down on certain things in the Press

Deputy Carter said that this was designed not to clamp down on the respectable national press, the Press which is owned by people of property and so on, that it was aimed at the back street pamphleteer—a tough phrase. In the history of the freedom of the Press and the Press generally in this country, as in other, a great deal of that freedom has been won and defended by the backstreet pamphleteers. John Wilkies was a back street pamphleteer, I suppose. John Wilkes was, in many ways, I suppose, not a very admirable person. Neither defenders of the Press nor exponents of limiting the liberty of the Press are necessarily either admirable or not admirable. That is not relevant. All the discussion on that question has been irrelevant, including the motives attributed to us which you, Sir, and I respect your ruling, would not permit me to reply to. What is important is that if, through the use of the word "encourage" you give the courts the opening to clamp down on the back street pamphleteer, to run him in, to prosecute him and jail him for something he said in encouragement of squatting, if he emboldened a group which proceeded to a certain course of action, then certain judges will avail themselves of that lawful, legal permission.

The Deputy is impugning the integrity of the judiciary.

Deputy Cruise-O'Brien to continue.

He is impugning the judges of this country and I think he should be halted.

Why should an interrupter be given the benefit of the microphone?

Acting Chairman

Deputy Timmons should cease interrupting, please.

On a point of order, may I enquire from the Chair how it is, in so far as the sound mechanism of this House is concerned, that the amplification seems to be in top gear for an interruption of Deputy Cruise-O'Brien while it is in a much lower gear for the Deputy's most intelligent address.

(Interruptions.)

On a further point of order——

Acting Chairman

Order, please. I am sure if the amplification was on a Member who was interrupting it was not intentional and I am sure it will not happen again.

On a point of order, I would draw the Chair's attention to Standing Order No. 47. Perhaps the Chair would give us a ruling on that in relation to Deputy Cruise-O'Brien's speech.

That was tried with the previous speaker.

Acting Chairman

I have just taken the Chair. The Chair will bear the Deputy's remark in mind.

The Deputy will not impugn the integrity of the judiciary.

Acting Chairman

Deputy Timmons must cease interrupting.

The Deputy in a disorderly way has repeatedly——

I resent the way the Deputy has impugned the integrity of the judiciary.

Acting Chairman

The Chair is the judge of when the judiciary are being unfairly commented on or attacked. Deputy Timmons may leave that matter to the Chair.

The Deputy who has interrupted me persistently is a Deputy from my own constituency, Dublin North East. I do not know if there is a connection between the two phenomena. He has accused me eight times of impugning the integrity of the judiciary——

The Deputy has impugned the integrity of the judiciary and that is not fair comment in this House.

Acting Chairman

It has not happened since I took the Chair. Deputy Timmons may leave it to the Chair to see that the rules of debate are complied with.

Deputy Timmons has charged me ten times, I think, with impugning the integrity of the judiciary. I wish to declare that the Official Report will show clearly that at no time did I speak a single word reflecting on the integrity of the judiciary unless it be a reflection on the integrity of someone to say they are human beings. Perhaps in a philosophical way that is so. What I said, and I want to be precise about this because it is important, is that honourable, upright judges such as I believe we have—and I am glad this country has them because we need them—can differ about the interpretation of the law. They differ according to their philosophy of life. Everyone knows there are judges who are more liberal than others, just as there are judges who are more conservative. Frequently I have heard lawyers express the hope that a given case would come before a certain justice rather than another person because these men differ as human beings. This is no reflection on them whatever.

We are not suggesting they differ from one another for corrupt or venal motives. Although many of them have risen from the ranks of political parties, we believe they have made a sincere effort to rise about party prejudices and party passions. We are proud of our judiciary and none of us would wish to do anything that would undermine our legal system. However, it is not undermining to say we should not feed bad laws to the judiciary, which is what these gentlemen are asking us to do under the specious pretext that the words "encourages" or "advocates" mean the same thing as "incite". If we feed that to the judiciary, of course, they will make more sense of it than it appears to make because they will study it honourably and conscientiously and they will try to make "encourage" fit into the general framework of our laws. They will try to interpret and administer it in a just way. We can be confident they will do all of these things.

However, the Deputy regards these observations as a savage onslaught on the integrity of the judiciary. What will happen is that conservative judges will interpret this—as they have every right to do—in the light of their general philosophy and their concept of the law and this extends the law in a way that makes it possible for certain judges to apply the law in an admissible and honest way but in a way that will result in restriction of the freedom of the Press.

Cases will be brought before judges and decided in this way or in that way. However, in cases brought by the Attorney General and decided by certain judges they will be decided in a way that will extend the law, very con-considerably, perhaps, not as widely as in the wildest dreams of critics of this section, but still considerably.

Notice taken that 20 Members were not present; House counted and 20 Members being present,

I was making the point that the real meaning of this Bill by adding "encourage" to "incite" is to give judges who may be interpreting it and who may be of a conservative disposition, elbow room within the law because they would take no elbow room outside the law. What they can do depends on what powers we give them. We have been endeavouring to show that the powers given here would be very wide indeed. We believe under this section, with first of all the gardaí——

On a point of order, when a Member is speaking in the House he is supposed to stand on his feet properly.

A Deputy

He is tired and he cannot stand up properly. He cannot stand all day.

Acting Chairman

The Chair is ruling that Deputy Cruise-O'Brien is observing the same posture as many Deputies in the past have observed when speaking.

Deputy Cruise-O'Brien seems to have a lot of knowledge under him now.

Acting Chairman

Deputy O'Brien, please.

With due respect to the Minister for Justice who puts forward this apparently plausible claim, that there is no extension, it is an extension of the law and this is evident from the plain meaning of the words. We have only scratched the surface of the meaning of the words but it is already plain that they show there would be, by the inclusion in the Bill of the words "encourage or", an extension. We are not saying if this were done and the Irish Times had an editorial, which gave some kind of general encouragement to the Dublin Housing Action Committee, that immediately there would be a swoop on the Irish Times, that its editor would be brought before the courts and so on. That is not it at all.

I would see relatively little utility in a test of the law by these major respected national dailies. The assault will not begin on them. No Government are so foolish as to start by attacking them. That would be a grave mistake. They will start with this poor little backstreet pamphleteer of Deputy Carter. It will, in fact, be some poor man inspired by some passion to say certain things, who is known to be linked, perhaps, in some way, even if only by friendship, with some group regarded by the Minister for Justice as subversive. There are subversive groups but we do not know what the Minister has in mind there.

We are saying that the effect of "encourage" will be to include these in a possible net. We think some of them will avoid the operation because some of the judges, before whom they may be brought, will not interpret "encourage" in the widest way or even in a very wide way. However, in some cases the judges, finding the law so extended, will use that extension and thus make it easier to convict that poor man, that pamphleteer, that journalist and send him to jail.

That is what the Bill is about. The Minister has said that he wants to get at these people. That is the most candid statement he made on this whole matter. His statement on section 4 was: "This will enable me to get at the people I want to get at." That is exactly what he said. I do not think it is in the official record but it is what we heard him say. That is the way it will work and these are the people intended to be brought into the net and some of them will be brought into it. It is a question of getting used to things. Society is very much a question of habit and convention, of what you come to regard as normal as the German people came to regard the Nuremberg code as normal, as the South African whites regard the apartheid code as normal.

This makes a different normality for the Press to live in than the normality which existed before and that is what we object to in it. We are being very careful to avoid excessive language in relation to this. We are not saying that this is equivalent to the Nuremberg code or to the apartheid code. It is not but it is a small significant step in the direction of curbing the freedom of the Press. We are defending the freedom of the Press in this amendment not because we deserve or wish to be praised for doing so but because we and those we represent have an interest in the freedom of the Press being defended. It is an important thing in relation to the citizen and it is not necessary to accompany it by any flattery of the Press.

I have no desire to indulge in any flattery of the Press. The Press use their freedom sometimes well and sometimes badly. What is important is that they have it and that no unnecessary dangerous restrictions should be introduced into this very sensitive area here. We have been accused here of trying to limit the freedom of the Press ourselves. We do not think we did so. The Chair's predecessor admonished me against replying to certain things which were said and I will not go against his admonition. The only point I would like to make about that is that on this amendment, on this section, on this Bill, it is irrelevant whether our course of action in relation to these past events was this or was that. As regards the judgement of history on the Labour Party, whatever that may be, no doubt it is relevant but these are not the matters at stake in this amendment. Whatever the Press or anyone may think about the Labour Party here and now it is not the Labour Party who are endeavouring to restrict the freedom of the Press. We do not think we did it before either and I would defend our point of view there but I cannot defend it here because of the ruling which we had on that.

I should now like to proceed, with the Chair's permission, to complete my investigation into the "encourage" group of words before proceeding to examine the group of words which the Minister would equate with them, that is, the group of words around "incite". I say "group of words" very advisedly here because a word exists in a crowd, a complex, of other words. No word stands by itself. If one wishes to explore the meaning of a word one must explore the meaning of the words associated with it. I shall try to do that, or some of that, because it is a large task.

I am not sure that I shall be able to complete it to my satisfaction or to that of the House, but I shall try, as shall other Deputies who will be speaking in the debate. Deputy FitzGerald has a strong interest in the semantic aspects of this. He uses such industry and this makes him an admirable Deputy. I can see a further example of industry here on the benches. It is most encouraging——

You will not see it again.

——to see it Fianna Fáil Deputies poring over these learned volumes.

It is a hedge school.

Acting Chairman

Deputies must cease interrupting.

If I have inspired them I am glad.

I have never seen peaceful expressions on their faces until they got those large books.

There are no pictures in them.

Acting Chairman

Deputy Cruise-O'Brien on amendment No.8.

We must remind ourselves that the subject matter of the amendment is in itself no joking matter. It is very serious. If by the passage of section 4 without our amendment the law is extended and additional powers are put into the hands of conservative judges, the first victims will be the small men, the editors of small newspapers, newspapers whose views I do not share, for whose views on most things I have no time, but newspapers which have a right to express themselves within the framework of existing law. If we move in on those by including the word "encourage", if we enable the Minister and his friends to move in on those little men, that will be bad in itself. I should rather see those men expressing themselves on paper than going out shooting people.

(Interruptions.)

Acting Chairman

Order. Deputies must allow Deputy Cruise-O'Brien to continue.

This has reduced the House to a farce.

Acting Chairman

The Chair again appeals to Deputies to observe order.

According to Standing Order No. 47——

Acting Chairman

The Chair has considered Deputy Cruise-O'Brien's contribution in the light of Standing Order No. 47 and I am satisfied that it is orderly.

Is the Chair biased?

Biased as the Minister for Local Government was the other morning on the radio.

Acting Chairman

Is the Minister questioning the Chair?

Has the Minister for Local Government the right to question the Chair? Should he not be asked to withdraw the remark he made to the Chair?

He is too ignorant to withdraw anything.

Acting Chairman

If the Minister for Local Government has suggested that the Chair is biased he should withdraw it.

The Minister is exercising his right to ask the Chair to answer a question put to the Chair asking if the Chair is biased. I did not suggest anything.

Acting Chairman

The Minister should be well aware that that is a most improper question.

Should the Minister not be asked to withdraw that remark?

I was exercising my right to freedom of expression.

Was there freedom of expression for the inhabitants of Rahoon when the Minister was in action?

I was making the point that if this amendment is rejected and if section 4 as it stands becomes law, then the courts, or some of them, will be encouraged to proceed to clamp down on the fringe Press, the mosquito Press——

The people are fed up of the gimmickry of the Labour Party and particularly of Deputy O'Brien.

Acting Chairman

Deputy Timmons must allow Deputy Cruise-O'Brien to continue.

I was pointing out that the word "encourage", to which we object——

Is the Deputy too tired to stand up?

Acting Chairman

If Deputy Timmons does not cease interrupting I will ask him to leave the House.

He is sitting——

Acting Chairman

Deputy Timmons is persistently interrupting and I think he should leave the House.

Is the Deputy allowed to sit while making his speech?

Acting Chairman

The Chair has ruled that Deputy Cruise-O'Brien is in order.

Deputy Timmons cannot make one sitting or standing. What is he talking about?

With these sustained interruptions it is difficult for me to continue without repetition. I have avoided repetition as far as I possibly could and as far as any Deputy did in this debate but if I am constantly interrupted I shall have to re-gather my frame of thought and I can do that only by a measure of repetition. The point we are making is that the word "encourage" does not mean "incite" but "incite" plus. The "plus" may be used by courts so inclined in order to clamp down on the small Press, the fringe Press, the mosquito Press. In the first instance, that series of actions will put the national Press also increasingly on the defensive. They are very cautious in relation to the existing law, but I think they will in course of time, when they have seen it enforced, come to be anxious in respect of this law. Should it be found constitutional we do not know whether or not this section will be found constitutional; we hope it will not, but it may—if it is, if it becomes the law, then editors who defy such a law, and I am sure there will be such instances, will perhaps cease to be editors and the Press will become in process of time more circumspect. Editors will cease to be editors. It may not be a rewarding thing to disobey the law. The movement then will proceed inwards from the mosquito Press, from the fringe, into the national Press itself, not by establishing a reign of terror but just by establishing precedents, which are a little more prudent, with a tendency to avoid running against the current of the Government. That is, in fact, what we are dealing with. It is a turn of the screw, a quite large and significant turn of the screw. If they get away with this, if they do this thing, if they refuse our amendment, steamroll section 4 through, and it becomes the law, then they will be encouraged—I am just coming back to that interesting word; we have not exhausted it yet.

Acting Chairman

I was hoping the Deputy would.

They will be encouraged to introduce and carry other laws of this kind. They will say: "Oh, those fellows made a fuss last time but eventually we got it through" and they will go ahead. I think, however, they may be a little discouraged possibly by parts of the course of this debate. I have not completed my examination of the encourage range of words.

(Interruptions.)

On a point of order, might I bring the attention of the Acting Chairman to the fact that since five minutes past six the Deputy who is addressing the House has been interrupted on 23 occasions. Did the Chair hear these interruptions and, if so, what does he propose to do about it?

Acting Chairman

The Chair is doing his best to preserve order and he asks the co-operation of all Deputies in that effort.

I propose to speak on this amendment and I therefore, want to hear the intelligent addresses of those addressing the House.

Acting Chairman

The Chair would point out to the Deputy that that is not a point of order.

On a point of order, Deputy Flanagan interrupted on two occasions.

Acting Chairman

The Chair would point out that neither alleged point of order is a point of order.

Deputy Moore was late for the division yesterday and now he wants to make up for it.

Acting Chairman

Deputy Cruise-O'Brien on amendment No. 8, without interruption.

I was concluding on the words in the encourage group, one of them being the word to which I am now coming, which is an encourager, defined as he who or that which encourages. Of course, the encourager, he who encourages, if what he is deemed to encourage is an offence under the earlier sections of this Bill, becomes a criminal, which he is not now, if that is all he does, if he just encourages.

Let us look at the usage here. The earliest usage is a 16th century one: "An apology against the report that he should be maintainer and encourager of such as curse the Queen's Highness." Now that is very interesting because that usage is, in fact, the usage of the Star Chamber. That is Star Chamber usage—an apology against the report that he should be a maintainer and encourager of such as curse the Queen's Highness. It is the spirit that is important. This word "encourager" was a great 16th century word.

At that time the courts and the government were very anxious to get at, as the Minister says, anybody who looked sideways at the Queen's most excellent majesty. Of course, the class of people especially envisaged as maintainers and encouragers of such as curse the Queen's Highness were gatherers and it was to get them in the net that this wide word "encourager" was there. They wanted to get, not people who incited acts against the Queen, but people who simply encouraged other people to curse. A Deputy curses. I encourage him. I countenance or I patronise him. I even allow him to go on cursing. I am an encourager. That is what the scope of this word is and this is the word that had such a vogue in the 16th century, a time when freedom, as we know it today, and most certainly the freedom of the Press, as we know it today, did not exist. This was a time when backstreet pamphleteers, about whom Deputy Carter speaks, were put in the pillory and had their ears clipped. I suppose some subsequent statutes brought in here may return to that.

Then, again, you have Forde writing in 1562—I think it is the dramatist Forde: "Of which notable thing and great force of faith Mauritius himself was a great encourager." In 1607, the early 17th Century, you have Topsail: "My worshipful good friend and daily encourager unto all good labours". You have these two aspects of the verb encourage, encourage something good or something bad. Then, again, in the 18th century you have this word: "Mr. Gough begged leave to return the encouragers of his musical entertainment." In Watson's Philip II, 1777 : "They were considered as fomentors of the tumult and encouragers of heresy". That is the kind of person, the encourager of heresy. You see how this word works. It is very interesting to explore how this word works It reaches out and it grabs you. It brings you into a net which would not otherwise be there: "You may not be a heretic, you so-and-so, but you are an encourager. Did you not say that Wvcliffe should not be hanged?" or something like that. That is the type of thing.

Did you not say that Boland should not have been fired?

Fomentors of the tumult and encouragers of the heresy.

A Deputy

Boland resigned.

No. He was encouraged to go.

Acting Chairman

Mr. Boland is not relevant on this amendment.

I find it encouraging at least that that Deputy said a good word for him. The final example is from Wilson's British India in 1844 and is again an innocuous one: “He was an encourager of lessons in the arts.” Now that word “encourager” means that people will again become criminals under this Bill as they were in the 16th century under Her Gracious Majesty, Queen Elizabeth I, and His Majesty, King James, because it consists in about equal parts of innocuous usages which all exist in this great potent cloud of meaning around the word “encouragement”, these harmless things, and then also these things which reach out and get you, these Star Chamber things. They make the words “encourage” and “encourager” comparable to the action of grapeshot or shrapnel; they spread out and hit many people. You do not get just a particular man; you get almost anybody.

The Minister is anxious to have these extended powers. He admitted —I am glad he is present—in speaking on section 4 that it would enable him to get at people he cannot get at. That at least was a candid and clear admission, but the Minister has not said—I hope he will speak as soon as may be reasonably possible—what he means by including these words "to encourage or advocate". In what relation do they stand to the task which section 4 will enable him in his opinion to carry out, that of getting at certain people? Do they or do they not play a role? If, as he has told us, "encourage or advocate" are synonymous, not merely to one another but also to "incite"—they include no meanings that go beyond those—then these words at least give him no extended powers at all. He is just putting them in to modernise, as he said, the language.

I have been quite unable to understand how you modernise language by the introduction of a word which has been in the English language since at least the 16th century, which is the earliest recorded use of it, and which has been used repeatedly down the whole length of the 17th, 18th and 19th centuries. This is not a very modern word but even if it were a really groovy word I cannot see why we need it, why the existing "incite" will not do. The Minister has not told us why it will not do. He has just given this reference to modernity. We believe that section 4 would give him the extended scope which he candidly said he wanted, the power to get at certain people he does not like and whom he believes to be in subversive organisations and behaving in ways that he does not like. But we think— and this is what he has not added—it is these words "encourages or advocates" and most particularly this word, the word this amendment is aimed at, "encourages", that is the net which the Minister wants to cast——

I claim to move that the question be now put.

The guillotine. After all the anxiety to debate this and to put up one speaker after one——

I think this farce has gone on long enough. We cannot allow Parliament to be dragged down to the level to which Deputy O'Brien has dragged it down.

(Interruptions.)

The Chair is consenting to the claim and, accordingly, under Standing Order No. 53, I am putting the question that the question be now put.

(Interruptions.)

On a point of order, under that particular Standing Order, must not the Ceann Comhairle be satisfied in himself that there have been adequate contributions from all sides of the House?

Yes, that the question has been adequately discussed.

Then wait until we have some contribution from the Fianna Fáil Benches.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

This is a ready-up between the Ceann Comhairle and the Minister for Justice.

(Interruptions.)

(Cavan): As mover of the amendment I wish to make a submission——

Deputies

Sit down.

There can be no point of order at this stage.

(Cavan): I shall sit down when the Chair tells me.

May I ask a question?

(Interruptions.)

(Cavan): As the proposer of the amendment I think it is quite unreasonable that the question should be put without giving me the right to reply briefly.

Deputies

Sit down.

Could the Ceann Comhairle give any precedent for his ruling?

I have given no ruling. I am acting under the Standing Orders.

I want to say deliberately——

Would the Chair silence Deputy Smith and let business proceed?

On a point of order, I want to point out to the Chair that the House is now discussing an amendment proposed by Deputy Fitzpatrick. There is no question proposed by the Chair and accordingly Standing Order No. 53 cannot possibly apply. It only applies in relation to a question proposed from the Chair and that cannot arise at any stage in relation to an amendment moved by a Member of this House. May I indicate to the Chair that we are on the Report Stage of this Bill?

I am, and every other Deputy is, entitled to speak once on this amendment. No closure of debate can take place except on the Committee Stage of the Bill when the Chair proposes that the section debated stand part of the Bill or on the Fifth Stage of a Bill when the Chair proposes: "That the Bill do now pass." It is without precedent to accept a motion to close a debate depriving Deputies who wish to participate of their right to do so. You have no right to do it. It is utterly wrong.

In support of that, I should like to point out that Standing Order No. 94 (1)——

Deputies

Sit down.

Will the Deputy please resume his seat?

(Interruptions.)

I am replying to Deputy O'Higgins: It is not usual for the Chair to give reasons for his decision on the claim for a closure. As an exception in this case, and to clear up the position, I will say that I consider the amendment has been adequately debated since it has been before the House since yesterday. Also, the arguments put forward on the amendment were debated in extenso yesterday on amendment No. 7——

Deputies

No.

——and for that reason I am accepting the claim. Deputy O'Higgins pointed out that the amendment was not proposed by the Chair and was not before the House and that I could not deal with it. The fact that the amendment has been debated here indicates that the Chair called the amendment and so proposed it to the House for consideration.

(Interruptions.)

Standing Order No. 94 (1).

May I indicate that the Chair is in error? The position is that had Deputy Fitzpatrick not been present to move his amendment, the amendment would not be moved and the Chair would go on to the next business. Deputy Fitzpatrick moved the amendment.

This is totally irregular. There cannot be any debate on this matter.

The contention of the Chair is that this amendment has been adequately discussed. It may annoy the members of the Fianna Fáil Party that Deputy Cruise-O'Brien has spoken at such great length and so relevantly. How can you say there has been adequate discussion when neither the Minister for Justice nor any other member of the Fianna Fáil Party has attempted to make any comment except by way of ignorant interjection?

(Interruptions.)

By your action, by this jackboot dictatorship, you have made a better case than the Opposition could have made.

I want to draw to your attention Standing Order 94 (1) which makes it clear that an amendment is not proposed from the Chair. It says:

In Committee, when an amendment is offered proposing to insert a new section in a Bill, such amendment may be moved when the number of the section, before which it is proposed to insert the new section is read from the Chair ...

The Chair's function is to read the number. The amendment is then moved by the proposer. This amendment before the House is not proposed from the Chair. Therefore, it is not possible to apply Standing Order 53 (1) at this stage.

What has a new section got to do with the matter? The House is considering the Bill on Report. When the Chair called amendment No. 8, the Chair was proposing amendment No. 8.

No. The Chair read the number of the amendment.

Standing Order No. 41 says:

If a member does not move the motion or amendment which stands in his name, such motion or amendment shall lapse ...

It is perfectly obvious that the Fianna Fáil Party were afraid yesterday to move the guillotine. They have got behind the coattails of the Chair to operate it. They have not the guts to face up to their own responsibilities and they are getting the Chair to do their dirty work for them. It is a disgrace to Parliament.

Is there any precedence for moving the closure in this way before any speaker from the Government side has had a chance to indicate whether the amendment is acceptable or not?

There is no necessity for a precedent, but there may be.

What precedent?

Who seconded this amendment?

(Interruptions.)

A crowd of poltroons hiding behind this partisan chairman.

Is is not a fact that this has been plotted since last night?

As far as the Chair is concerned there has been no plotting.

The Chair is fully involved.

The Minister has moved according to Standing Orders and I am accepting the claim.

You cannot operate under Standing Order No. 53.

I am putting the question.

The Chair is badly advised, too.

Standing Order No. 53 states quite clearly:

... unless it shall appear to the Ceann Comhairle that such a motion is an infringement of the rights of a minority, or that the question has not been adequately discussed——

(Interruptions.)
——or that the motion is otherwise an abuse of these Standing Orders, the question, "That the question be now put", shall be put forthwith ...
Could I ask the Chair whether amendment No. 8, on which we have had the mover and the seconder, and the seconder has not yet concluded seconding the amendment, you would consider it has been adequately discussed? Would you not agree that your ruling is a direct breach of the Standing Orders of this House and that you are abusing your office? Could I have a reply from the Chair?
(Interruptions.)

If there are no Tellers appointed for the division we shall go on to the amendment.

I can assure the Chair that party loyalty does not justify his behaviour in this matter.

I would point out to Deputy Cluskey that I am acting in accordance with Standing Orders.

You have reduced yourself to a hack, Sir.

You are in open definance of Standing Orders.

We are not taking part in this farce.

The Opposition have reduced Parliament to a farce. I moved this motion in order to bring the Opposition to their senses and I think I have done that.

I should be glad to have your ruling on Standing Order No. 94 (1).

Can the Ceann Comhairle point to any precedent for this decision?

Could you name the precedent?

(Interruptions.)

I have quoted the Standing Order and I have asked the Chair how he could justify accepting this motion. Would the Chair please reply?

If there are no Opposition tellers I shall have to declare the motion carried.

Deputies

No.

We might get action now.

The Chair should resign.

On the question "That the question be now put", a division has been challenged.

This is a farce and we are leaving.

As there have been no tellers from the Opposition, I declare the closure motion carried without a division.

Under what rule or regulation do you declare it carried without a division?

It is the ordinary practice of the House.

If it has been the practice, will you tell us on what previous occasion this has happened? Give us the day and date on which this has happened before. It is not the practice.

As I have pointed out, the Opposition appointed no tellers and the question was carried without a division.

I asked under what rule or regulation this was done. I was informed that there was no precedent for it. I want to ask the Chair to quote the precedent for this.

It is a matter of commonsense.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

(Interruptions.)

I am putting the question: "That the words proposed to be deleted stand".

(Cavan): Which amendment is this?

Surely the bells should ring.

Is the Deputy seeking a division?

(Cavan): I want to make it clear that we refused to take part in the previous farce in proposing the guillotine.

The Dáil divided: Tá, 56; Níl, 42.

  • Aiken, Frank.
  • Allen, Lorcan.
  • Andrews, David.
  • Boylan, Terence.
  • Brady, Philip A.
  • Brennan, Joseph.
  • Briscoe, Ben.
  • Brosnan, Seán.
  • Browne, Patrick.
  • Browne, Seán.
  • Carter, Frank.
  • Carty, Michael.
  • Childers, Erskine.
  • Gibbons, James.
  • Gogan, Richard P.
  • Haughey, Charles.
  • Healy, Augustine A.
  • Herbert, Michael.
  • Hillery, Patrick J.
  • Hilliard, Michael.
  • Hussey, Thomas.
  • Kenneally, William.
  • Kitt, Michael F.
  • Lalor, Patrick J.
  • Lemass, Noel T.
  • Lenihan, Brian.
  • Loughnane, William A.
  • Lynch, Celia.
  • Colley, George.
  • Collins, Gerard.
  • Cowen, Bernard.
  • Cronin, Jerry.
  • Cunningham, Liam.
  • Davern, Noel.
  • Delap, Patrick.
  • de Valera, Vivion.
  • Fahey, Jackie.
  • Faulkner, Pádraig.
  • Flanagan, Seán.
  • Foley, Desmond.
  • Geoghegan, John.
  • Lynch, John.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • Meaney, Thomas.
  • Molloy, Robert.
  • Moore, Seán.
  • Moran, Michael.
  • O'Kennedy, Michael.
  • O'Leary, John.
  • O'Malley, Des.
  • Power, Patrick.
  • Sherwin, Seán.
  • Smith, Michael.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Timmons, Eugene.
  • Wyse, Pearse.

Níl

  • Barry, Richard.
  • Begley, Michael.
  • Belton, Luke.
  • Browne, Noel.
  • Bruton, John.
  • Burke, Joan.
  • Byrne, Hugh.
  • Conlan, John F.
  • Cooney, Patrick M.
  • Corish, Brendan.
  • Cosgrave, Liam.
  • Crotty, Kieran.
  • Cruise-O'Brien, Conor.
  • Desmond, Barry.
  • Dockrell, Henry P.
  • Dockrell, Maurice E.
  • Dunne, Thomas.
  • Enright, Thomas W.
  • Esmonde, Sir Anthony C.
  • Fitzpatrick, Tom (Cavan).
  • Flanagan, Oliver J.
  • Governey, Desmond.
  • Harte, Patrick D.
  • Hogan O'Higgins, Brigid.
  • Jones, Denis F.
  • Kavanagh, Liam.
  • L'Estrange, Gerald.
  • Lynch, Gerard.
  • McLaughlin, Joseph.
  • McMahon, Lawrence.
  • Malone, Patrick.
  • O'Connell, John F.
  • O'Donnell, Tom.
  • O'Donovan, John.
  • O'Higgins, Thomas F.
  • O'Leary, Michael.
  • O'Reilly, Paddy.
  • Pattison, Séamus.
  • Ryan, Richie.
  • Thornley, David.
  • Timmins, Godfrey.
  • Tully, James.
Tellers : Tá, Deputies Andrews and S. Browne; Níl, Deputies L'Estrange and Kavanagh.
Amendment declared lost.

Amendment No. 9.

Could we inquire if you are under any further marching orders from the Taoiseach?

Be honest and tell us.

Be honest and tell us before we get into this farce.

Farce is right.

That is the name of your ball game.

(Interruptions.)

There was a time when certain people tried to destroy Parliament from outside, are you going to try from inside now?

When is internment coming in? It would be a natural development of that performance.

Slogan for the next election, "Trust Jack".

(Interruptions.)

Would Deputies agree to discuss amendment No. 10 with amendment No. 9 as they are related?

Does it really matter at this stage?

It is a matter for the House.

All right.

Amendment Nos. 9 and 10 to be taken together.

(Cavan): I move amendment No. 9:

In page 3, line 35, after "offence" where it secondly appears to add "provided always and it is hereby declared that reasonable comment on a matter of public interest in any newspaper, magazine, periodical or book shall not constitute an offence under this subsection".

Subsection (1) of section 4 is a subsection which proposes to enact that a person who encourages or advocates the commission of an offence under sections 2 and 3 of this Bill shall be guilty of an offence. In order to understand the section and the amendment it is necessary to refer very briefly to sections 2 and 3 of this Bill. Section 4 as it now stands proposes to make it an offence for any person to encourage or advocate the commission of an offence under sections 2 and 3 of the Bill. Section 2 is the section which makes forcible entry of land or a vehicle an offence and section 3 is the section which creates the offence of remaining in forcible occupation of land or a vehicle. As I have said on another occasion, we are creating new offences by reason of these two sections. We are writing into the Statute Book for the first time the offences of forcible entry and forcible occupation.

The Minister and I had some words as to whether we were creating new offences or not, but I do not believe that the Minister would be serious in contradicting me when I say that we are creating the new offences of forcible entry and forcible occupation. We are putting it beyond yea or nay that it will be a criminal offence for a person to take forcible occupation of land or a vehicle for any reason or to retain forcible occupation of land or a vehicle for any reason. I have made it perfectly clear on previous Stages of the Bill and on previous amendments, that, so far as I am concerned, and so far as my party are concerned, we do not quarrel with the creation of these new offences. I have pointed out previously that I object violently to the definition of "owner" in section 1 and that for that reason, sections 2 and 3 are far from satisfactory but when we leave sections 2 and 3 and consider section 4, we see that this section makes it an offence for anyone to encourage or advocate the commission of an offence under sections 2 and 3. We must consider the type of offences we are creating here.

The act of forcible entry or forcible occupation, commonly known as squatting, first manifested itself in this country some few years ago and took the form of sit-ins for the purpose of voicing protest against social evils or social ills. To be specific, one or more of these forcible squats, if one might so term them, were staged for the purpose of focussing public attention on the fact that the Government had failed in their duty to solve the housing problem in Dublin. Its purpose was to demonstrate to the people of the country the appalling evils that resulted from people having to live in inadequate accommodation and that there was an enormous waiting list on the books of Dublin Corporation and that that waiting list contained the names of unfortunate families of three and four children who were living in one room in houses where there were no proper sanitary facilities.

In view of the fact that there are only four Fianna Fáil Deputies present, such is their concern for this Bill, perhaps we could have a House.

Notice taken that 20 Members were not present; House counted and 20 Members being present,

(Cavan): I was saying that the first forcible entry that was staged in this country was by way of demonstration so as to attract public attention to the problem of inadequate housing in Dublin city and throughout the country and to focus public attention on the fact that the Government had failed hopelessly in their duty to provide adequate housing for married men and their families in the city of Dublin. The forcible occupation of one or more dwelling houses that were to be sold as hotels or for other purposes were staged in order to bring home to the Government and to the people of the country in a very dramatic way the need for housing and the necessity for doing something about it.

Another such forcible squat took place to convince the Government that it was wrong to tear down Georgian buildings in Hume Street. That forcible squat succeeded because some members of the Government encouraged and comforted members of the squatting team by providing them with food and other necessaries and when the battering ram brigade had moved in the present Minister for Finance yielded and took steps to ensure that the houses would not be pulled down.

Yet other squats, forcible entries and forcible occupations were held to protest against the action of foreign landlords who owned and own fishing rights in this country in refusing to permit Irish citizens to enjoy those fishing rights. In so far as this amendment is concerned the important thing is that these forcible entries and forcible occupations in regard to Hume Street, Harcourt Street and fishing waters were not the beginning of a campaign to draw public attention and to persuade the Government to do something about inadequate housing, the destruction of beautiful buildings and the refusal of people to allow Irish citizens to enjoy the fishing waters of this country. No, the national and provincial Press had been waging those same campaigns for years back to no avail. We all read leading articles in every newspaper deploring the housing position, calling for the preservation of Georgian buildings in this city and demanding that Irishmen have free access to Irish waters. That has been going on for years but if this section goes through without this amendment, it will mean that the newspapers will be guilty of a criminal offence if they continue to draw attention to bad housing conditions, if they continue to campaign for the preservation of Georgian buildings and if they express, in no uncertain terms, that Irishmen and Irish women should have the right to fish in Irish waters. That will be an offence without doubt under section 4 (1) of this Bill unless my amendment is accepted which proposes to ensure that reasonable comment on a matter of public interest in any newspaper, magazine, periodical or book shall not constitute an offence under this subsection.

This is a serious amendment and I am putting it forward in a serious way. It affects the right of expression of opinion in national and provincial newspapers. I have gone on record before as saying that with the sort of administration we have here at the moment, with the exhibition we have just witnessed in this Chamber a few minutes ago—the imposing of a guillotine motion on a Bill of this sort it is true to say——

There was no guillotine motion proposed in this House.

Deputy Timmons is quite right. There was a closing motion under Standing Order 53.

(Cavan): Go away and talk it over some place.

Deputy Fitzpatrick had better lay off the arrogance now.

(Interruptions.)

Deputy Timmons is quite right.

It will go down in parliamentary history.

The matter does not arise. Let us get back to the amendment.

Even Deputy de Valera was disgusted.

(Cavan): Who is being small now? Who is in the kindergarten school now? Would the Minister for Transport and Power, this big broadminded man, talk to them? Is there any difference between a guillotine and a closure?

(Interruptions.)

Order. We cannot discuss this on the amendment.

(Cavan): You have every right to be touchy.

Notice taken that 20 Members were not present; House counted and 20 Members being present,

(Cavan): I was explaining to the House that the object of this amendment is to ensure that the newspapers will still have the right to comment on a matter of public interest without committing an offence. Unless this amendment is accepted it will be an offence for any newspaper or magazine to discuss matters of public interest which are the subject of agitation in the country.

We are creating a new offence which is closely associated with agitation demanding the curing of social ills, such as bad housing, the preventing of people from fishing in Irish waters and the destruction of beautiful buildings. It is more important now than at any time in my political life that we should have a Press free to express views fully on matters affecting citizens of the country.

I say that for two reasons. We are living in an age when people are inclined to resort to violence; in an age where young people are not prepared to be treated as children; in an age when people will insist on reforms. I do not believe in violence or force. The best way of discouraging people from resorting to violence or other unlawful methods in order to bring their views before the public is to ensure that there is a free and unfettered Press. We must have a public Press that will champion worthy causes and will be at liberty to do so; a Press that will act as a mouthpiece for people who want to protest in a lawful way about injustices, social or otherwise, or who want to bring before the people reforms they consider necessary.

If there is not freedom of expression, if there is not editorial freedom, we are embarking on a road that can end only in physical violence, in the younger people taking to the streets and resorting to violence—perhaps to the petrol bomb and worse—in order to get their views across to the people. We are living in an age when people, especially the young, refuse to be muzzled.

Look at the example they had here this afternoon.

(Cavan): That is one reason why it is absolutely essential to preserve freedom of expression in the newspapers, national and provincial.

There is another reason. Because of the administration in charge of the Government at the moment, and the events that have occurred in the last 12 months, and in view of the fact that the Government are determined to avoid facing the people, I cannot be criticised for saying that the Government at the present time are a different administration and a different cabinet from the Government that was given a mandate by the Irish people on 18th June, 1969.

As we saw during the closure motion this afternoon, the Government are determined to steamroll this Bill through this House. There is one thing any Government fears and must yield to—the free and unfettered expression of opinion in the national newspapers.

And in the national Parliament.

(Cavan): We have had two examples in the present Government yielding to newspaper editors in the past 12 months. We had the dole episode when the Government announced their intention to withdraw unemployment assistance from all single men——

Is this relevant?

(Cavan): I hope to make it very relevant.

This is the fourth time I have heard the Deputy rehash this.

On a point of order, is this relevant?

After all, there is relevance in everything.

I am seriously seeking a ruling on this matter.

(Cavan): I will abide by the ruling of the Chair.

This is the fourth time I have heard the Deputy on this topic.

I would ask the Chair for a ruling on this matter.

The Chair is waiting to hear the Deputy relate this to the amendment.

(Cavan): I have no intention of getting into a general discussion on the dole episode. I am merely pointing out that in the last few months the Government decided to withdraw unemployment assistance from all single men in urban and rural areas. The national and provincial newspapers mounted an attack on the Government for their proposals. They made it clear that no section of the community, employer or employee, would stand for the Government's action. As a result, the Government yielded.

This is only an allegation. This is not true.

On a point of order, this is amendment No. 9.

(Cavan): It deals with freedom of the Press.

It is an amendment to section 4 of the Prohibition of Forcible Entry and Occupation Bill. The Deputy does not know what the section is about.

(Cavan): I happen to know what the section is about.

Send for the Ceann Comhairle. You cannot muzzle the Leas-Cheann Comhairle.

Would Deputy Fitzpatrick relate his remarks on this amendment to section 4?

(Cavan): With the greatest respect, I am within the rules of order. I was making a case that the campaign mounted by the newspapers of this country against the Government proposal to withdraw the unemployment assistance, which is more properly known as the dole, from urban and rural people could not be carried out if this Bill were law at that time.

On a point of order——

(Cavan): Surely I am entitled to speak without interruption from this Deputy. Surely I have the protection of the Chair.

Deputy Timmons wishes to raise a point of order.

Could we have a House?

Deputy Timmons is raising a point of order.

He cannot raise it without a House.

Notice taken that 20 Members were not present; House counted and 20 Members being present,

Deputy Timmons wishes to raise a point of order.

I am raising a point of order in regard to the relevance of Deputy Fitzpatrick's remarks. I think they have no relevance with regard to the matter under consideration.

The Chair has already asked Deputy Fitzpatrick to relate his remarks on this amendment to section 4 of the Bill.

With due respect to the Chair, the Deputy is not relating his remarks to the section.

(Cavan): The Deputy has been disorderly since midday today.

I am waiting for Deputy Fitzpatrick to relate his remarks to the amendment before the House.

In accordance with Standing Order 47.

(Cavan): The essence of this amendment, which should be perfectly clear to the House, is to preserve the freedom of the Press in this country. I respectfully submit I am doing no more and no less than stating the necessity for an independent Press in this country and pointing out the power of the Press. I said that twice within the past twelve months the Press found it necessary to bring the present Government to a sense of responsibility. The first time was in connection with the proposal to withdraw the dole from single men. That was a disgraceful proposal but in the light of the national campaign which was mounted against this——

This amendment relates to section 4.

(Cavan): I am quite well aware of that but, if I am interrupted after every three or four minutes, it is very hard to relate my remarks to the section.

Will the Deputy get back to the facts? The Deputy is a lawyer and he should be able to relate his remarks to section 4. The Deputy should concentrate on amendment No. 9 which is before the House at the moment.

(Cavan): I will have to start again. I have pointed out that twice within the past twelve months the power of the Press was demonstrated in this country and the necessity of an independent Press was brought home very forcibly to the people. If this Bill had been law at that time, the newspapers would not have been free to make the case on behalf of the unemployed people of this country that they successfully made.

What has that got to do with forcible entry?

It has to do with freedom of the Press.

(Cavan): Deputy Cunningham used to be very fond of interrupting when he was an ordinary Deputy but since he got elevated, in rather peculiar circumstances, one would think he would not interrupt in this way.

That remark can hardly be related to what we are debating here, which is the Report Stage of the Prohibition of Forcible Entry and Occupation Bill.

(Cavan): I ask for the protection of the Chair. We had this closure on the previous amendment and after it I stood up and moved this amendment. I have not had two minutes without interruption since.

The Deputy is perverting Parliament.

The Minister must allow the Deputy to make his case.

The Deputy has to make a case. He has not done so yet.

Let the Deputy be heard.

(Cavan): I want to suggest that at the present time it is absolutely essential that we have a free Press here for the purpose of giving an outlet to the young people of this country who want to make their views felt, who want to put across their case, who want to get their arguments to the people and for the purpose of curbing this undemocratic Government who do not enjoy the mandate of the people.

On a matter of accuracy, Parliament comes from the people. The people elect Parliament and it is they who elect a Government. Therefore, the Government have a mandate from the people.

(Cavan): That is a very proper interjection from the Minister for Transport and Power. In reply, I find it necessary to point out to him that it is——

This is amendment No. 9. We cannot have a debate like this on this amendment.

(Cavan):——a very different Government from that elected on the 18th June, 1969. There are several Deputies who are now on the front bench who were not appointed then.

Will Deputies please cease interrupting and will Deputy Fitzpatrick please relate his remarks to amendment No. 9?

(Cavan): What happened to the Front Bench that the people elected? Where are they now?

The Chair has said the Deputy must stick to amendment No. 9.

An amendment to section 4.

(Cavan): I am trying to do that. It is essential that we have a Press in this country free to criticise the Government, Government policy and Government proposals. Again I would try to put over my argument in that respect by referring to two episodes in the last 12 months. The first related to the dole.

The Deputy could not have the gall to repeat that.

On a point of order, the amendment put down in the names of Deputies Fitzpatrick and Cooney relates only to this matter:

provided always and it is hereby declared that reasonable comment on the matter of public interest in any newspaper, magazine, periodical or book shall not constitute an offence under this subsection.

The amendment is related to this specific subsection of section 4 and in my view it is entirely irrelevant to go outside matters related to this subsection.

The Chair has already directed the attention of Deputies to amendment No. 9 in relation to section 4.

(Cavan): I am arguing, I hope within the rules of order, that the case made by newspapers in the last 12 months in criticising Government policy and Government proposals could not legally have been made if this Bill had been enacted.

Tell that to the marines.

(Cavan): The Deputies opposite will not agree with me but that does not put me out of order.

The subsection is the point. The Deputy is well aware of that. He has done Committee Stage work and he knows very well it is the subsection we are dealing with.

(Cavan): It is some time since——

It is time this House was brought down to realities.

The Minister is taking a sudden interest in this Bill.

(Cavan): Subsection (1) relates to a person who advocates the commission of an offence under sections 2 and 3 and I want to add to that a proposal which will exonerate any newspaper, book or periodical. I am making the case that it is necessary the newspapers should be free to comment. I would have been finished with this 15 minutes ago if the Minister had not interrupted me. I will continue to deal with it until the Chair rules me out of order or until a closure is moved. It is necessary to have a free Press, free to criticise the Government and Government proposals. That was demonstrated twice in the past 12 months, first in relation to the dole episode. I want to repeat that newspaper editors would have been fearful at that time, if this Bill had been law, to comment on the dole proposal.

The Chair cannot see how the dole comes within the ambit of this section. The Chair allowed the Deputy to make a passing reference to it.

(Cavan): I respectfully disagree with the Chair.

The Deputy is entitled to do that but the Chair cannot see how the dole becomes relevant.

(Cavan): I feel very strongly about this. Surely I am in order in pointing out a classical example of the right of the Press to comment on matters of public interest; and I am pointing out that the Press did so, with great effect, twice in the last 12 months, first in relation to the dole and, secondly, on the proposal to intern without trial. On both occasions the Press rose up and curbed the Government, criticised the Government, and I want to put it on record that if this Bill had been law at that time the Press would have been hesitant, the Press would have been fearful of doing that because they could have been accused——

The amendment put down by Deputies Fitzpatrick and Cooney relates to subsection (1) of section 4 and that is what we are discussing. Surely comments must be related to the proposed amendment to the subsection.

(Cavan): Surely the Minister knows that section 4 cannot be discussed without relating it to sections 2 and 3.

The amendment relates to a subsection.

(Cavan): It relates to the main part of section 4 which automatically refers back to sections 2 and 3, the sections creating the offences of forcible entry and forcible occupation.

I should like the Chair's ruling on this matter.

The Chair has directed the Deputy's attention to the fact that the discussion should be directed to section 4 and only to section 4 of this Bill.

(Cavan): That is what I am talking about.

The Deputy is referring to sections 2 and 3.

(Cavan): I cannot refer to the Bill without referring to those sections.

The Chair is not limiting the Deputy, but matters extraneous to this Bill are not in order.

(Cavan): What I should like the Chair to do is to protect me from obstruction by the opposite side. Section 4 (1) makes it an offence for a person to encourage or to advocate the commission of an offence under sections 2 or 3. The offences under those sections are forcible entry and forcible occupation.

Nothing to do with the dole.

(Cavan): In the past two or three years these things have been done in protest. I cannot think of anything more likely to bring about a protest than the withdrawal of the dole or internment without trial.

The Chair allowed the Deputy to make this reference in passing and the Chair is asking him not to pursue the matter.

The Deputy is well aware of what he is doing.

(Cavan): I am hurting the Minister.

I hope our Deputies will get the same latitude.

They do not need it.

No. We talk effectively.

(Cavan): I was dealing with the withdrawal——

Sure the Deputy dealt with that ad nauseum last night.

The Minister has not spoken on this Bill at all. He has not made a single contribution.

I am subject to the Chair.

Now they bring in the gurriers——

The Deputy should not have used that word.

I will withdraw it.

I strongly object to Deputies being referred to as gurriers.

The Chair has dealt with that matter. The Deputy will resume his seat. The Chair has dealt with the matter.

(Cavan): If I am to develop my argument it is necessary for me to point out that the offence created by subsection (1) of section 4, which I propose to amend, of encouraging the commision of a crime under sections 2 and 3 is the offence of forcible entry and forcible occupation. If this Bill becomes law it will be an offence to protest by means of forcible entry and forcible occupation. Protests are usually made to ventilate a grievance which affects a considerable number of people or to object to a wrong affecting a great number of people. If a newspaper publishes an article on any topic, whether it be the withdrawal of the dole, internment without trial, the destruction of houses in Hume Street, the inadequacy of housing accommodation for families, or fish-ins, it will commit an offence. They will commit an offence by publishing photographs or letters if, as a result of these activities, there is an illegal sit-in or an illegal occupation, and the editors of these papers, if the law is enforced, will be guilty of an offence under section 4 (1) of this section. That is the position I want to avoid. That is the position against which I want to protect the newspapers. They play a very important role. Their protection is the whole point of my amendment. I am not the only person who believes this amendment is necessary. As far as I know, Deputy Vivion de Valera is the controller-director of the Irish Press group of newspapers.

(Interruptions.)

Deputies can make their points later if they wish to speak. The Deputy is entitled to make his argument.

(Cavan): I am not naming anybody who cannot defend himself from the benches of this House. We are definitely seeing the end of democracy here. What I am saying is relevant, highly relevant.

(Interruptions.)

The Chair is ruling that the Deputy is relevant at the moment.

At the moment?

(Cavan): I am not the only one who believes that, if this subsection is not amended, it will constitute an attack on the Press. The newspapers have said so in no uncertain terms. If I were talking about newspapers which the Minister for Transport and Power might regard as critical of the Government——

I never regard a newspaper as critical.

(Cavan):——the Minister might have an argument, but I am talking of a newspaper controlled by a respected Deputy of this House, Deputy Vivion de Valera; he is controlling director of the Irish Press, and the Irish Press of the 27th of this month carried a leading article and, since the Minister for Transport and Power is here, I think it is worth putting it on the record of the House. It is highly relevant.

(Interruptions.)

(Cavan): Obviously Deputy Carter does not like the idea. I have never persistently interrupted any speaker here in the way I have been interrupted since I stood up to speak here.

To what extent do the rules of procedure control repetition?

(Cavan): The Minister has blown in here this evening to act the bully boy. This leading article in the Irish Press of 27th July is headed: “The Bill.”

Is it in order for the Deputy to repeat what he said last night?

The Chair has ruled that the Deputy is speaking to amendment No. 9 and he is relevant to it.

Is it permissible for him to quote what he said last night?

The Chair is telling the Deputy that the Chair has ruled that way.

He had better keep to it.

(Cavan): Bully boy.

The Chair should order the proceedings properly in this matter. Just let the Deputy continue. We have got the amendment and we have the section and the subsection here in front of us.

(Cavan): The article reads:

Very few pieces of draft legislation have ever attracted such attention as the Forcible Entry Bill which today will apparently begin its final trundle through the Dáil.

From being a proposal to deal with the circumstances created by the activities of certain persons who had used the housing situation to stage "squats" to further their own political ends a situation has been allowed to develop, over the retention of a few words in section 4 of the Bill, into a massive debate on the freedom of the press, with the Government cast in the role of a bogey man to undermine one of the bastions of democracy.

This should never have been allowed to happen, but it has and it is sobering to think of all the Dáil time and energy that has been devoted, not to discussing how the root cause of the matter, our housing problem, could be eradicated, but, when it comes down to it, nothing more than whose interpretation of the relevant section concerning press comment is correct, the Opposition's, or the Minister's.

It may be that the Minister's interpretation is correct and that the law would be interpreted intelligently and without prejudice to responsible Press coverage or comment. But on the other hand the future might also show that the contrary would be the case and that the law would in effect be inimical to the freedom of the Press. This, of course, would be intolerable and when a doubt of this magnitude is raised the sensible thing to do is to leave out the cause of the doubt.

Without going into legal niceties, it should have been possible before now to devise some formula of words whereby fair comment and reportage, be it pictorial or otherwise, on a matter of public interest would not be inhibited. Some amendments of this nature have been proposed and at the beginning of this, apparently final, passage of the Bill through the Dáil, these, or some variant of them, should be put in effect.

We have some enormous problems confronting us; the deteriorating situation in the North is but one. Having the Dáil's time taken up with one easily alterable section of a Bill, whose retention is being fought for and against with the ferocity of a rearguard action in the field, will not help us to deal with these problems. Let us now have that suitable alteration, and let us get on with the Nation's business.

Certainly, with the interruptions that I have been subjected to I could never be expected to make a clearer case, a better case, and to put in black and white what I am asking. We are being told by the Minister and by some of the Government Deputies that section 4 does not affect the Press, that the Press is not mentioned in it. They have been arguing that case here. I suggest to the Minister for Transport and Power now that it is as clear as the noonday sun that section 4 catches the Press, that it will prevent the Press from doing anything that might be calculated to encourage illegal sit-ins, illegal squats or illegal occupation. Does the Minister for Transport and Power, as an experienced Parliamentarian and lawyer, believe we should pass this Bill while it contains a clause which will prevent the Press from expressing views or comment on matters of common concern and public interest?

If he says that is going too far, does he believe we should have on the Statute Book a section in an Act which would prompt a newspaper editor to say: "I wonder if I write about the housing problem will I be guilty of an offence because squatting is going on?" I have tried to bring home to the House this might not only prevent our newspapers in the future from writing editorials on social injustices or matters needing reform but it would create a situation in which newspapers that have been campaigning for years past will now have to cry halt because all these matters I am talking about, the fishery problem, the Georgian houses, and the housing shortage have been the subject of a vast amount of editorial comment in our newspapers. Each one of them has at the same time been the subject of what will be illegal squats or sit-ins.

Does the Minister for Transport and Power want to deny the Irish Press or the Irish Independent or the Irish Times the right to write a leading article calling on the Government to house the people? Does he want to deny the Dublin newspapers the right to write leading articles calling for the retention of buildings they believe have an architectural value and are part of the character of the city? Does he want to prevent our newspapers from campaigning for the vesting of our fisheries in a body like the Land Commission? I do not think he does but that is what he is doing in that section.

It is a great pity that this section has become the source of such a controversial debate here at this time of year. It is a pity it was introduced into the House at this time and that it was not left over until October or November when it could be dealt with calmly and that we were not dealing in the past month or so with the Planning Bill or with the Landlord and Tenant Bill both of which would have got rid of some of the protests here.

If legislation is good, the month of the year does not count.

(Cavan): There are tactics. I put it to the Minister that all I have said is the case, that this section unaltered will do exactly what I say it will do, prevent the expression of public opinion in the newspapers on matters of public interest. If the Minister says I am not right and that it would not be so interpreted in our courts I disagree with him. I fall back on the reasoning in the Irish Press of 27th July: if there is this massive doubt, why not put an end to it? Why not accept this amendment? Why, when the Minister's attention was drawn to this in the very first speech I made—a short one—on Second Stage of the Bill—was he not man enough to reconsider the position at a Government meeting or somewhere else and bring in a reasonable amendment to meet the objections from this side of the House,——

Hear, hear.

(Cavan):——from every newspaper in the country, including his own newspaper which was founded by the founder of the Fianna Fáil Party? I believe that the present Minister for Justice is a man who is constitutionally unsuited to be entrusted with a piece of legislation——

Really, I think we have stretched the rules of procedure on Deputy Fitzpatrick's contribution——

The fitness or otherwise of the Minister does not come into the amendment.

Is the Minister moving that the question be now put?

(Cavan): I respectfully submit that the character of the man to whom the enforcement of this measure is to be handed over is certainly relevant and well the Minister knows that. The Minister would chance anything.

What I am concerned about is whether what the Deputy has just said is relevant to this amendment to a subsection of section 4.

(Cavan): The present Minister has shown on a few occasions recently in this House that he does not believe in the freedom of the Press and that he likes to crack the whip at newspaper editors and newspaper controllers. On 13th July— and surely if this was ever relevant it is relevant on this amendment—at half past ten in this House the Minister for Justice was highly indignant with the newspaper controller who dared to criticise him, who dared to write in the newspapers that the law was not being fairly enforced. The Minister rubbed his nose in the dirt here in a most disgraceful fashion——

Really, is this on the amendment, with all respect?

Is the Minister proposing to speak?

On a point of order——

The usual preface to a point of disorder.

We have had a number of these in the past hour. On a point of order, please, let us have some order.

You do not say "On a point of order, please." What is the point of order?

The point of order is quite obvious. We are not discussing the amendment to the subsection.

(Cavan): Of course, we are. I am saying I do not want to put into the hands of this Government a whip to scourge newspapers, and I believe that if they had the whip they would scourge them.

On a point of order, on Report Stage of a Bill this is quite outrageous. Is this relevant?

The Chair has allowed this debate to continue on this matter.

In this manner?

But in this manner?

The Chair has dealt with that point already.

Deliberate obstruction.

The Ceann Comhairle is biased, Deputy Timmons said, not you a Leas-Cheann Comhairle. The Ceann Comhairle, he said, and we agree with him.

References like that to the Chair should not be made from any side of the House.

He was not saying anything about you, Sir; it was the Ceann Comhairle.

Disparaging remarks about the Ceann Comhairle are not in order from any side of the House.

Deputy Timmons had better withdraw, so; he said it.

(Cavan): I do not blame Deputy Timmons. I blame the people who encourage him to stay in the House.

Would Deputy Fitzpatrick deal with amendment No. 9?

If Parliament is to survive, Report Stage is Report Stage, and we are on an amendment to a subsection of the section.

(Cavan): I put it to the Minister, through the Chair, that I am entitled to advance an argument in favour of my amendment on Report Stage, the same as on any other Stage. I am advancing the argument that subsection (1) of section 4 unamended will be an instrument in the hands of the Government with which to muzzle the expression of public opinion in the newspapers. I am convinced that this Government would do exactly that if they had this measure, and that is the reason why I do not want to give it to them and why I am pressing this amendment.

On 13th July in this House Deputy Vivion de Valera brought the Minister for Justice back here on an Adjournment debate to raise the question of the prosecution of four newspapers in this country for an offence and the failure to prosecute other newspapers. I shall read the whole thing if the Minister likes, but I do not think it is necessary.

He does not like.

(Cavan): I do not think it is necessary.

And subject to what the Chair says.

(Cavan): Because Deputy Vivion de Valera did that he was held up by the Minister for Justice to 15 minutes of ridicule, to 15 minutes of threats——

He has only got ten minutes anyway.

(Cavan): Ten minutes, then, if that is what is correct. He was held up to ridicule, to threats, by the Minister for Justice for daring to question in this House the Minister for Justice in relation to newspapers and for having printed in the Sunday Press of the Sunday before an article which could be regarded as criticising the administration of justice in this country. That is what I am perturbed about——

A Leas-Cheann Comhairle, matters outside matters relating to the offence referred to in the subsection are not relevant here.

On a point of order, is this a new arrangement that Ministers will come in here and attack the Chair as they have been doing for the past couple of days in an effort to——

(Interruptions.)

This is the first time the Deputy has been in the House in the past month. The Minister for Health did the same thing, and I think it is an insult to the Chair that the Minister should try to do this.

(Interruptions.)

The House is on Report Stage. Deputy Fitzpatrick on amendment No. 9, section 4.

(Cavan): As I was saying, because a Sunday newspaper dared to criticise the administration of justice in this country by a front page article and because the proprietor of that newspaper who happens to be a Member of this House, saw fit to raise it on the floor of this House, he was held up to ridicule and to threats by the Minister for Justice, and he was a member of the Minister's own party. How would a newspaper proprietor who was habitually critical of the Government be treated if it did the same thing?

On a point of order, this does not relate to the specific amendment. It relates to an offence under the section.

(Cavan): Of course, it does.

This is entirely irrelevant to the amendment put down by Deputy Fitzpatrick and Deputy Cooney.

The Chair is repeatedly asking the Deputy to address himself to amendment No. 9, section 4.

(Cavan): I am doing just that under very difficult conditions. It is most unfair, and I hope the Press will realise what is happening.

The Deputy is holding Parliament up to odium.

(Cavan): The Minister is holding Parliament up to odium and is trying to stifle Parliament because I am exposing that he is trying to stifle the Press.

Get back to the point.

On a point of order, are interruptions not disorderly?

The Chair has repeatedly ruled that interruptions are disorderly, and the Chair regrets to say it is not getting any co-operation in regard to the matter.

(Cavan): If I get a few minutes I shall deal with this episode, which must be painful to the Minister, just as Deputy Blaney's questions today must have been painful——

This is entirely irrelevant.

(Cavan): The Minister will have to live with that sort of thing.

Deputy Fitzpatrick should keep to the amendment.

(Cavan): That is only a passing reference. I would not be a party to putting in the hands of the Minister for Justice section 4 of this Bill unaltered in view of my experience of the way he treated a newspaper proprietor in this House because that newspaper proprietor dared to write in the newspaper. This amendment is about freedom of the Press and I am pointing out that the Minister for Justice threatened a newspaper proprietor, without this section. What would he do if he had it? I leave that to the House. I leave it to the newspapers and to the nation. That is not the end of it. The same little man——

The Deputy should not refer in a disparaging way to the Minister.

(Cavan): I unreservedly withdraw that. The same Minister wrote to the Irish Times on the 24th of this month this sort of letter:

Since the newspapers have found themselves unable, by reason of pressure of space, et cetera, to report many of the points I have been making in the Dáil during the past two weeks, might I repeat here some of what I did say on the Opposition amendments that were discussed, if discussion is an appropriate word for the activities of the Opposition recently?

That is the type of letter that is written to a newspaper. It is a critical sort of sarcastic letter.

Free Press.

(Cavan): That is what this amendment is about.

That applies both ways.

(Cavan): I could see the same Minister enforcing the law against a newspaper editor in this country to prevent him from criticising the Government, if he was given machinery to do so by this House. He will never do that in so far as this party is concerned. The Minister is steamrolling his way through the House with this objectionable section unaltered. We will see to it that we have pointed out to the public what is involved here and that the records of the House will contain our views. The record of this House is a valuable weapon to prevent the abuse of a measure. It is necessary to say what we are saying because there are Ministers of this Government saying there is nothing objectionable in this Bill.

The Minister for Finance is reported in the Irish Times of the 23rd July as stating in Thurles the night before that the Forcible Entry Bill threatens no one but those who despise democracy. He said that this Bill was an attempt to uphold democracy by backing up law and order. The Minister for Finance told a Fianna Fáil meeting that. He is a reasonable, responsible man and if he is sending in scripts to the newspapers in that tone I would hate to hear what the Minister for Transport and Power is telling the lads behind closed doors down the country. It is necessary for us to put on the record of this House what is involved here when we take as an example of this sort speeches made by Ministers and contrast them with what Deputy de Valera is saying in the Irish Press. Surely the members of Fianna Fáil must be utterly confused. The sad thing is that the present Government know perfectly well that this is a dangerous section to put into an Act of Parliament. If they knew as much before the Bill was introduced or appreciated the position then as they do now this section would never have been put in. It is in here and this is one of the shortcomings that I see in democracy— practically the only shortcoming. When a measure is introduced by the Government in power it becomes a matter of principle and is regarded as a defeat for the Government if they amend it substantially. They will do anything in order to resist any substantial amendment.

The Deputy is wrong there. We have amended many measures.

(Cavan): When you became Minister you pulled out the Succession Bill and amended that one. That was after the Galway by-election. I remember getting great pleasure from that measure. Once a measure is introduced here by the Government they will do anything rather than yield.

On a point of principle we will not yield.

(Cavan): There is no urgency about this Bill. There has not been a squatter in this city for years.

That is what you think.

(Cavan): There is a section in the Housing Act for dealing with squatters in corporation houses. There is determination in the Government even to the extent of the closure motion to ensure that the Bill goes through. This is regrettable. It is one of the weaknesses of our democratic parliamentary system.

Dishonesty is worse. Fine Gael cannot have it both ways.

(Cavan): I am glad that the Minister mentioned that.

The Minister does not know which side of the fence to come down on. He was canvassing for Deputy Hillery. He would canvas for Deputy Fitzpatrick in the morning if it suited him.

(Cavan): The Minister talked about law and order. The position of Fine Gael on law and order is that we want the Minister and the Government to enforce law and order under the measures at their disposal. We believe in the enforcement of law and order. In my opinion there is no better way of ensuring that the law will be uniformly enforced and that there will not be selective justice than to preserve a free and unfettered Press. That is why I am pushing this amendment and having such a stormy time in trying to get my case across.

There are a large number of decent Fine Gael householders in Ireland.

(Cavan): Obviously the Minister for Transport and Power did not get the dirty copy of the debate of the 26th May, 1970, which his colleague, the Minister for Justice, is making available and in which I called for an end to squatting and to forcible entry.

Let us be honest.

(Cavan): I called for an end to forcible entry but I never did call on anybody to muzzle the Press. I never called on anybody to create the offence of guilt by association or to bring in section 4 of this Bill.

The Deputy is trying to have it both ways.

What about Deputy Ó Moráin when he was Minister for Justice and the Maggot Durkan case?

Deputy Fitzpatrick without interruptions.

(Cavan): My position on this is clear. I will fight to the death to oppose section 4. We did our utmost to have it deleted from the Bill. We did not succeed on the Committee Stage. We are not alone in this. It is an example of the Referendum all over again. Everybody was against it but Fianna Fáil thought they were right. The people of the country told them where they stood. Even the Irish Press is against this Bill and a large percentage of the Fianna Fáil Party also oppose it.

The great silent majority would not agree with you and they are the people who count.

(Cavan): The Minister thought the same thing about the Referendum.

Eight months afterwards it was different.

(Interruptions.)

Acting Chairman

It might be unwise for the speaker to incite interruptions.

(Cavan): You are only a short time in the Chair but I have been endeavouring to speak here for the last hour under persistent interruptions.

Acting Chairman

I would suggest the Deputy is not helping his case by taking them on himself.

(Interruptions.)

(Cavan): This is a serious amendment put forward in a serious way to do something to render harmless so far as the mass media of the country are concerned an extremely dangerous section in an Act of Parliament. I hope the Minister will listen to the case which will be made from these and the Labour benches in support of this amendment. I hope he will speak to Deputy de Valera about this amendment, if he is speaking to him, and that he will avail of the benefit of Deputy de Valera's advice and as a result he will come in here and accept this amendment put down by me in a responsible and reasonable way.

We had here this evening the imposition of the closure motion. I want to defy the Government to attempt to impose the closure on this amendment because this amendment is about freedom—freedom of expression of opinion in the public Press. They may steamroll this section through but the best argument in favour of this amendment is the performance of the Government this evening in imposing the closure motion. That is the best argument to date but the final and unanswerable argument in favour of it would be the imposition of the closure of this debate, the muzzling of this House in its effort to secure that the Press will not be muzzled.

I wish to support this amendment. This amendment has suddenly assumed an immense importance in the context of this afternoon's activities because, as Deputy Fitzpatrick rightly pointed out, the amendment becomes highly relevant because it deals with freedom. We saw here this afternoon a curtailment of freedom when the guillotine was applied. Objection has been taken to describing the action of the Government as guillotining. It is an expressive phrase which sums up exactly what has happened. Freedom was chopped viciously and callously and that is what the guillotine does.

In considering that amendment we cannot, no matter how much the Minister would like to consider it in vacuo, consider it without also considering the section to which it applies. The amendment seeks to amend section 4. We have to have a close look at the section we are seeking to amend. Section 4 contains three subsections. The first creates what I submit is a totally new offence—the offence of encouraging or advocating. The Minister for Justice has made the case that it does not, that it is merely expressing in modern language the old and longstanding offence of incitement. My short answer to that proposition is that in that event this section is unnecessary if it is replacing something which is and has been adequate. The second subsection creates a new and malicious legal concept whereby a person can be found guilty of a criminal offence and all that that entails merely by happening to have been associated with a group on whose behalf a statement was made under subsection (1).

The two subsections have to be looked at together because it is in the second vicious subsection that we get the whole raison d'être for this horrible section. If that second subsection of guilt by association was not part of this section which we are now seeking to amend I have no doubt that the Minister would not be bringing in the section at all under the pretence that it is merely the old offence of incitement dressed up in modern language.

It is an elementary principle of drafting and a very general rule of draftsmanship never to change the form of words unless one is also going to change the meaning. The form of words for the offence of incitement have never encompassed the words "encourage or advocate". There is a definite change of wording in the drafting of this section.

We are entitled to ask why this change has taken place in view of the basic rule of draftsmanship that one does not change the form of words unless one is also going to change the meaning. There we have the kernel of the situation in regard to this section because that principle reveals the thinking that was expressed to the draftsman as to what he was to produce. What we have to try to amend is that repressive type of power.

It is quite clear that the idea the draftsman was asked to put into print was the idea of attacking the subversives and above all the backroom boys. The Minister has made no bones about that and it fits in when one considers his statements in the context of this section. He wanted to get at the backroom boys by introducing this principle of guilt by association and by introducing this offence of encouraging. Everyone in this House, if he is honest, must admit that the connotations and meanings of the word "encourage" are so vast that if this section were to be applied in a situation which it is envisaged to deal with that vast application could harm a great many innocent people. The Minister was prepared to take that risk and he was also prepared to take the risk of harming innocent people who might be associated with a perfectly respectable protesting group if, at the same time, he could get at his bête noire, the backroom boys he has been speaking about. In his anxiety to get at them, he has caused the Parliamentary draftsman to draft what I submit, without fear of contradiction, is new law and an entirely new principle. In disregarding the widespread effect of this new law and this new legal principle, the Minister has, perhaps, unwittingly at best, or carelessly at second best, or even deliberately at worst, had half an eye on recalcitrant journalists who might be inclined sometimes to show sympathy for these backroom boys. Consequently, the section as drafted is in wide, loose terms which would enable the Minister to prosecute a respectable newspaper which might, unwittingly, make a comment and thereby be held to encourage an offence under either of the preceding two sections.

It is quite clear that the mentality which asked for this section to be drafted was repressive in its thinking at that time and was quite careless in its outlook and as to what side effects this particular idea could have adversely on innocent persons acting bona fide. The amendment, unfortunately, at this stage, can only hope to soften the ill-effect of this section. The only answer for this nefarious section is to kill it in the same way as free speech was guillotined effectively here this afternoon but the rules of the House——

Guillotined in defiance of the rules of the House.

The Minister seems to come in only in order to use the guillotine. Is that odd or is it in character?

Acting Chairman

Perhaps Deputy Cooney will keep more to the amendment than to the section?

In my opening remarks I indicated that it was impossible to consider the amendment in vacuo and that we could consider it sensibly only in relation to the entire section because every Act of Parliament must be interpreted first, according to the letter and if the letter is defective or obscure or ambiguous, the court is then entitled to look to the spirit which appears within that letter. In considering the amendment as now proposed this House must at least be entitled to the same rights. Consequently, I would submit that what I am saying is both pertinent and relevant.

The point I was making was that this section has within it the possibility—I suppose one could say the probability—of inhibiting Press comment and, depending on the personality of the occupant of the Ministry for Justice at any particular time, it could have within it the certainly of inhibiting Press comment, the certainty of denying the Press the full freedom that it, like anything else in a free, democratic society, should be able to enjoy. The amendment seeks to soften this section in relation to the Press. It seeks to exempt the Press from the possibility of committing an offence under this section and for the life of me I fail to see how the members of a party who pride themselves on the label "republican" can support a section which has the possibilities I have outlined and can deny an amendment, the whole spirit of which is designed to protect freedom. The first hallmark of a true republican is a regard for freedom but I am afraid that the quality of republicanism as being practised by our colleagues on the other side of the House has changed or diminished and does not permit the acceptance of freedom in the fullest concept of that ideal if it might impinge on their activities. That is the sad reality because if that were not the reality, this amendment would be accepted without question. It would have to be accepted and no Minister of a republican party would be allowed by his colleagues to introduce a section such as this which has within it such potential danger to one of the basic tenets of republicanism—liberty.

There must be a dichotomy of personal ideal within Fianna Fáil at this moment. The Minister has shown himself to be a man of strength within that party by being able to persuade them to come here and support the chop but I would appeal to the other elements to realise the mistake that they have made and to appreciate the harm they have done if not to this Parliament at least to themselves and their ideals and to assert themselves on the side of freedom.

That is all we are asking. We are not asking them to assert themselves on any unjust or outrageous cause. We are not asking them to support subversives, scruffies or queers but to assert themselves on the side of freedom. It is a simple appeal and I cannot understand why a party professing proudly their republicanism cannot accept that appeal. I suppose it is a matter of internal politics within that party as to the reasons why they cannot accept the appeal but if they are the only reasons, I would say that they are sordid reasons and that they are unworthy.

Amendment No. 7, was akin in spirit to this amendment. It was wider in the sense that it sought exemption for radio and television journalists. The objections to that amendment put forward by the Minister were that it was unreal to exempt the Press on the offence of incitement, that they were always liable to be prosecuted for that offence. I quite agree with the Minister; they were always liable and should be always liable; but I disagree with the Minister when he says that that is all that this section does—to create the offence of incitement. It creates an entirely new offence and it expresses a new concept and a new mentality. Because of its vast width, vast area of potential application, it is designed to get at the backroom boys, as the Minister calls them, and in that design it can get at perfectly innocent people, among them the Press. I do not think that the end ever justifies the means and certainly the end of squashing the few scruffies conspiring in a backroom does not justify the means when the means involves muzzling the Press. This consequence has been pointed out often in this House and has been pointed out by the newspapers themselves. As a result of all this that consequence must be well known to the the Government and to the members of the Government Party. In spite of that we are no nearer a position in which the leopard might change his spots in regard to this amendment.

I find it difficult to understand the type of mind that can be so deaf to so much valid argument, the type of mind that can just stare valid argument in the face and completely ignore it. I find it difficult to understand the personality, the ethos of the Fianna Fáil Party in this regard. All this amendment wants is to ensure that the Press will be free. I know the Minister's objections to the earlier amendment were that a person with a pamphlet or an irresponsible guest on television would be exempted under the terms of the earlier amendment and that that would be unfair. That objection does not even arise on this amendment because this amendment is confined to giving exemption from prosecution under this section to comment appearing in a newspaper, magazine, periodical or book.

I use the word "comment" but unfortunately the section as drafted could be applied to the mere reportage of news. The way news was presented, the pictorial illustrations that went with it, cartoons that might be used to highlight it, those things could be alleged to constitute encouragement. In addition to their first duty of reporting news, and I cannot see that there can be any argument in favour of a section which could curtail the right to report news, newspapers traditionally, and very properly, have always conceived it as part of their duty to comment on news, to put forward a point of view so that public opinion might be swayed by it, to accept it or to reject it, so that the attitude of the public would be educated as a result of the comment appearing in the Press. What could be more relevant for a newspaper to comment on than matters of social grievance, the very types of thing that have given rise to this Bill initially— lack of homes, an inequitable situation with regard to the fishing rivers in Ireland? These are matters of social grievance and if they overflow in protest, protest involving trespass or temporary occupation, perfectly justifiable protest in the thinking of very many responsible and what one would call conservative people, surely a newspaper must be allowed to comment one way or the other on such activities? If it comments in favour of them there is not the slightest doubt in my mind that that newspaper is committing an offence under this section unless this amendment is accepted and the newspapers are exempted from the effect of the section.

I dealt earlier with the thinking that must have gone into this section. I indicated, because of the type of drafting that appears in the section and of the novel legal principle of guilt by association, that that thinking showed a person determined to crush what he considered to be an irritant in this country. It showed a carelessness in that thinking, a dangerous carelessness in regard to the ideal of freedom, because as I have demonstrated the section as drafted can catch innocent people. Once it can, it must be repugnant to this House. In its ability to do that it inhibits freedom. We then have to consider that section and this amendment in the context of the ideal of freedom. Especially when it is under potential attack, as it is in this section, we have to consider how that ideal can be protected. We live in a free democracy and our basic freedoms are guaranteed by the Constitution and by the courts. This Parliament is one of the organs of State under that Constitution and, knowing the guarantees of freedom the Constitution provides, it must be careful not to pass any law that would violate those guarantees. In addition to the guarantees, there are certain conventions of society which themselves have considerable force in acting as guarantors of our liberty. One of those conventions is that our Press shall be free to report. The necessity for this is painfully obvious when we take the example of countries which lack freedom and when we consider the state of the Press in those countries.

People will not tolerate their freedom being diminished provided they know the attack on their freedom is being made and this is where the Press assumes a major importance. It is through the Press that the attacks by the Executive on the freedom of individuals can be made known. It is through the Press, by its ability to comment on and sway public opinion, that the electorate—who are ultimately the masters of the politicians—can be informed of what the politicians are up to. It is through the Press the politicians can be given the message to desist. This convention of an independent and free Press is as important in a democracy as the written guarantees contained in the Constitution. We should be as careful to preserve it in its entirety—to expand it if possible— as we are to ensure that basic constitutional rights are never infringed or impaired.

Another guarantee should be Parliament itself. Parliament is representative of the people and it should follow that the people, through their representatives, would never want to do anything which would in any way limit or inhibit their freedom. I do not mean just basic freedoms; democracy means more than that. The spirit should be free and there should not be any repression anywhere in our society. It would seem a contradiction in terms if Parliament, composed of representatives of the people, should ever seek to introduce legislation which would diminish any of these freedoms. However, the Parliamentary system has lost its independence in the sense that Parliament, in effect, is subject to the Executive. There has been a further gloss on that in that the Executive frequently is subject to the will and the whim of a single man, the chief minister—in our case the Taoiseach. Consequently, the people are not entitled to look to Parliament for the protection they should receive from it because Parliament has allowed itself to become subject to the Executive, and even subject to a Taoiseach. This has been an unfortunate development in the evolution of parliamentary democracy in this country and in every country which has that particular system of government.

It is a disturbing development. I do not impute any particular malice to the Executive we have at the moment although there has been justification enough in today's "chop" to attribute malice to it. The Executive does not like to see its will baulked and it does not like to see its proposals curtailed or diminished. It has given thought to them and, in its wisdom, it has decided they are for the benefit of its subjects. The inclination of the Executive is to impose its will on Parliament. We must consider what are the likely antidotes to this rather poisonous development. As I see it, there is one certain antidote—a free and fearless Press which will expose such an Executive to the people so that they may remove it from office. If the Executive are not inclined to move, the Press can send a message via public opinion that the Executive is exceeding itself.

There should also be the other antidote within Parliament itself in that Parliament should be a body that should reject such activities by the Executive. Parliament is the repository of all things democratic. It should rise up in wrath and turn on an Executive that would ask it to pass legislation of a repressive kind, legislation of this kind which, as drafted, is so wide that it could conceivably harm innocent persons.

However, Parliament does not do that. We had the sad and distressing spectacle of a majority of Parliament accepting what the Executive purpose. It is not just in this nefarious incident. Parliament is prepared to accept everything the Executive propose. It is no substitute, within the context of a Parliamentary democracy, to say that the majority party have debated all these matters within the private confines of their party room. This is the place for these things to be debated by all Members of this Parliament because every TD who is elected is elected as a parliamentarian first, and as a member of a political party, second. Unfortunately, that is not the way we are inclined to look at our situation. We have allowed the party game to intervene and to prevent Parliament from becoming as powerful an antidote to poison in this legislation as the Press is.

It is only a mechanical majority, to be triggered off to pass any piece of legislation that the Executive decide ought be passed and which allows it to be passed. It behoves the rest of us to look at our society and see what protection there is for us from that politically dangerous situation. When we look around us the only protection we have is public opinion. I equate public opinion with the Press. Consequently, it becomes a matter of grave importance, a matter of great urgency, when the one real protection we have can be threatened, as it is threatened in this section. The Minister, by implication, admits that this section can stifle newspapers from commenting. That implication arises from his argument that newspapers have always been liable to be prosecuted for incitement.

(Cavan): The chief executioner is here now.

The chief executioner with the guillotine is present.

That alone has been the law. I suppose if one searches the law reports one might find a case but I have never heard of a newspaper so irresponsible as to find itself prosecuted or convicted for the offence of incitement. It is perfectly valid for the Minister to say that newspapers are subject to the law but it is not valid to say that the proposed law does not change that situation.

I have demonstrated the overtones, the implications and connotations of this section, of the potential width of its application and its efforts to get at the backroom boys, the people who are behind the scenes egging on the squatters, by bringing in the principle of guilt by association, a novel and nefarious principle and one again completely at variance with the spirit and tradition of our democracy and our rule of common law. The Minister has expressed himself as being prepared to take the risk of hurting innocent people. He is callous to all the consequences which this section contains within itself and that callousness was confirmed for us here this afternoon.

It behoves us to protest and to plead with the Minister for goodness sake to exempt the Press. What harm can it possibly do to this section to remove the Press from its ambit? This obstinacy of the Government in not wanting to exempt the Press I suppose only confirms the repressive mentality that requested the drafting of this section. That undemocratic, totalitarian mentality would not want the Press to be exempted because they must recognise that the Press are their foe. If they want to indulge in their own nefarious activities they realise they can do so with much more ease with a muzzled Press than with an active Press. That is the mentality of the Executive who are asking this Parliament to accept this legislation. The only thing I can do is to remind the Deputies on the other side, who have in the past provided a mechanical majority for that Executive that their first duty is not to the party but to the people.

The Minister for Justice.

Deputy Dowling rose.

You called the Minister for Justice and he stood up. When he saw Deputy Dowling he beckoned him. Is that in order?

It is a case of cold feet.

Deputy Dowling offered before me.

He did not offer.

He did not. The Minister was on his feet and he saw Deputy Dowling attempting to stand up. The Chair called the Minister for Justice.

Deputy Dowling offered.

The Minister for Justice and Deputy Dowling offered at one and the same time and the Minister withdrew.

I want to move amendment No. 10.

There is no necessity to move amendment No. 10. It is being discussed with amendment No. 9.

It has not been moved.

It has not been moved yet.

It cannot be discussed unless it is moved.

If we are to discuss the two amendments together we must hear the arguments for both.

On a point of order——

We cannot discuss an amendment that has not been moved.

On a point of order——

Could I deal with Deputy O'Connell's interjection first?

The position is that the House agreed to discuss amendments Nos. 9 and 10 together. It has been the practice of the House during the years that the first amendment is moved and the second is not moved until the end of the debate.

Which Standing Order?

We cannot have two motions before the House at the one time.

At least the Member who is associated with amendment No. 10 should be allowed to make his case. Have we a guarantee that there will not be a guillotine before the purpose of amendment No. 10 is explained?

The House has been allowed to discuss both the Fine Gael and the Labour amendments together. I cannot see anything wrong with that.

What instructions did the Chair get from the Government this time?

The Deputy should grow up.

And you should be fair, a Cheann Comhairle.

Has the mover of the second amendment the right to speak before the amendment is put? Can we be assured of this?

It is not a matter for the Chair.

The Chair, of course, knows it is a matter for the Chair.

You must accept or reject a motion.

Will the Chair say if he will reject——

We are on amendment No. 9.

I want to know whether the mover of amendment No. 10 will get an opportunity before the closure motion.

The Deputy is out of order, as usual.

Has the mover of amendment No. 10 got the right to speak before the closure motion is moved?

That is a hypothetical question.

It is a very practical and immediate question.

It is one of Deputy FitzGerald's usual questions.

And it is one of the Ceann Comhairle's usual answers.

That is the point.

We are not discussing that matter now. I will deal with it when it arises.

But there will be the guillotine before the mover has had an opportunity.

Can we have a guarantee that the mover of amendment No. 10 will be allowed to speak before the closure motion? Could the Minister for Justice tell us whether there will be a closure motion?

I could not say. If it seems appropriate and necessary it will be.

There is the authentic voice of Fianna Fáil. They are the people who decide.

Little Hitler.

This afternoon I think we got a particularly good illustration of the kind of attitude——

If the Deputy does not wish to speak, will he resume his seat?

You did not call him.

The Minister withdrew and I called Deputy Dowling.

I offered before the Minister.

We have got nothing from the other side but closure motions.

Two Opposition Deputies having spoken, I then turned to the other side of the House for a speaker.

On a point of order, the Clerk should be quite fair. I distinctly heard you say to the Ceann Comhairle that the amendment before the House——

The Clerk of the House should not be addressed by Deputies.

The Clerk of the House should give you correct information——

I do not want information.

I heard the Clerk of the House give you that information.

There are two amendments which are apparently being discussed together. It would appear that an amendment cannot be discussed until it is moved and seconded.

Nonsense. When two amendments are discussed together the procedure is that the first is moved and seconded, the two are discussed together and the Deputy moving the second amendment, if he wishes, may put it to a division when the debate has concluded.

Standing Order No. 40.

We are discussing two amendments.

The agreement is that both be discussed together. They cannot be taken together until both have been moved and seconded.

That is incorrect.

Standing Order No. 40 states:

A motion or amendment shall not be debated until it has been seconded, but a seconder may reserve his speech till a later stage of the debate.

This amendment has not been proposed or seconded.

I have explained to the Deputy——

Which Standing Order are you ruling on?

In order to avoid further confusion, you asked if the Labour Party would agree to amendment No. 10 being discussed, and on the presumption that the normal procedure would be adopted, we agreed to that. You may not be aware of this, but we agreed on the understanding that we would not be dealt with unfairly and I would suggest——

We cannot have two motions before the House and two amendments are being discussed together. That has happened down through the years.

No case has been made for amendment No. 10 and it is unfair to members of the Labour Party that they have not been allowed to make a case for their amendment.

The Labour Party will, of course, get an opportunity.

No—the guillotine will be introduced.

The reality of the situation is that both amendments are taken together but both must be moved and seconded.

We can have only one motion before the House at one time.

Can a case be made for amendment No. 10? I offered before the Minister. I am the obvious person to speak on it. We are debating amendment No. 9 on its own, and then we will discuss amendment No. 10 separately. We are not party to that agreement.

The Labour Party agreed——

Not any longer.

That is right, break your word.

Do not talk about "word".

When the Chair asked if amendments Nos. 9 and 10 should be taken together the Labour Party agreed. Deputies do not listen to the Chair. I specifically asked the Labour Party if they were agreeable to both being discussed together and they agreed.

Were the Labour Party aware that you would not proceed in accordance with the Standing Orders of the House?

With your ruling I agree because it would be impossible to disagree.

This has been the ruling of the House down the years and Deputy Tully is aware of it.

I am aware of it, as you know, but an impartial Chair will always allow the second motion to be discussed before it is put to the House.

I have allowed two Opposition Deputies to speak.

Now I am asking a member of the Government party to speak.

Is Standing Order No. 40 valid?

I have no interest in Standing Order No. 40 at the moment.

But we are interested in Standing Orders and orderly debate.

Low standards in high places.

The only procedure in this House is that laid down in Standing Orders.

They want to change the Standing Orders when they do not suit them, just as they want to change their agreement when it does not suit them.

On a point of order, does the Chair have any conception of the damage he is doing to parliamentary practice and procedure by two rulings in an hour and a half——

What is Deputy Cluskey doing? Improving the image——

Does the Minister know what he is doing? He is selling himself to a pack that he does not believe in. I am surprised at him above all. Where are his low standards in high places now?

Might I suggest a compromise would be to meet the very reasonable request of the Labour Party that there be no guillotine until they fully debate their motion?

Sir, you were not in the Chair when the second Fine Gael speaker was called. Possibly if you had been in the Chair you would have called a Labour Party speaker.

No, I would not. I would have called a Fine Gael speaker to second their motion.

Does that mean that you do not believe the Labour Party have any right even to refer to their amendment before the Minister replies? He does not know what to reply to since the case has not been made.

That is the logic of it.

Maybe the Chair would like some private discussion with the Minister first. That is what he is waiting on, advice from the Government.

The Chair has called Deputy Dowling, if he wishes to speak.

I asked for a ruling as to whether Standing Order No. 40 is valid or not.

Let me make it perfectly clear that we are not going to allow a situation to arise in which our amendment is not allowed to be discussed. We have no intention of allowing a Labour Party amendment to go without debate.

Deputies

Chair, Chair.

Sir, you have not ruled on Standing Order No. 40.

You will get your Bill soon enough and you will be able to silence not only us but everyone else as well.

Ministers should keep their mouths shut and should not come in here and disgrace themselves.

On a point of order——

I will hear no point of order.

You are not entitled not to hear me. I want you to rule on whether Standing Order No. 40 is valid or not.

The Chair is subject to Standing Orders as well as everyone else in this House.

Would the Chair like to adjourn the Dáil for a while?

If I had to listen to the Deputy for a while I would not mind.

Is Standing Order No. 40 in operation or is it not?

Deputy Dowling.

The Minister, Deputy O'Malley, presented himself. How can he reply to a debate in which the case has not been made for the Labour Party amendment? Is he not replying?

He is not replying. Deputy Dowling.

The Fine Gael Party and the Labour Party are endeavouring to impede freedom of speech.

He does not know anything about it and he does not want to know anything.

Freedom of speech is being denied to Deputies.

He was called and got up to reply before ever the Minister for Finance came in and then he beckoned to Deputy Dowling to stand up.

The Chair called on the Minister and the Minister should have spoken when the Chair called on him.

I am awaiting the Chair's ruling.

I have ruled. The Deputy is being disorderly.

What was your ruling? You have not ruled on Standing Order No. 40.

There is no wish on the part of this party to wreck this Parliament any more than you have wrecked it today but we stand on our right to defend our amendment and we insist on that right.

Would you allow Deputy Dr. Browne to speak on the Labour Party amendment?

The Minister has no right to nominate another speaker if he does not want to speak himself.

Three Opposition speakers one after the other.

You asked us to take two amendments together.

Would you allow Deputy Dr. Browne to speak on our amendment?

The Minister was called by the Chair.

How can the Ceann Comhairle call somebody else when he has already called the Minister?

Deputy Dowling offered and I gave way to him.

The Minister was called by the Chair. Will the Minister deny that he was called by the Chair? Were you called by the Chair?

Yes, and I gave way to Deputy Dowling.

You had no right to call Deputy Dowling. He is your puppet, is he? You are not the Chair. Do you designate the next speaker?

On a point of order, the Minister has now stated that he gave way to another Deputy, although Deputy Dr. Browne had offered and the Chair called the Minister. Is the Chair stating now that this is proper procedure? Will the Chair state if this is proper procedure? Has the Minister the right to nominate a speaker after he himself has been called?

Deputies will not listen to the Chair. They do not want to listen. They ask questions. Deputy Dowling was entitled to be called because two Opposition speakers had already intervened.

But you had called the Minister.

You called the Minister.

On behalf of the Labour Party, I propose to move amendment No. 10 in the name of the Labour Party.

No one has the right to move our amendment and the Minister cannot reply to it until we have made our case for it. This afternoon in this House we were subjected to the spectacle of the Minister for Justice, Deputy O'Malley, applying the guillotine.

I am calling Deputy Dowling, if he wishes to speak. If he does not wish to speak——

I am awaiting your ruling, Sir.

No, Sir, not on Standing Order No. 40. Is Standing Order No. 40 now obsolete?

Both the Fine Gael and the Labour Party have now endeavoured——

On a point of order——

Deputies should try to behave themselves.

I am waiting for your ruling on a point of order.

I do not intend to rule. I have already ruled.

I am asking for your ruling.

I have already ruled. There is no ruling on Standing Order No. 40.

Will Deputy FitzGerald shut up then?

I am on a point of order. The Chair has not ruled on Standing Order No. 40.

The Chair is very patient with Deputy FitzGerald——

It is mutual, Sir.

——and, if he does not behave himself, I will ask that he leave the House.

I am on a point of order, Sir——

There is no question of a point of order. Will the Deputy resume his seat? If the Deputy does not resume his seat I will ask Deputy FitzGerald to leave the House.

I want to raise a point of order.

Deputy Dowling.

On a point of order, Sir——

On behalf of the Labour Party, I will not give way to Deputy Dowling unless we are either allowed to move the amendment now, or speak on it, or allowed to discuss it independently of amendment No. 9.

The Labour Party assured me that both would be discussed together.

In accordance with Standing Orders, Sir.

It was agreed before you did the confidence trick and only on the assumption that we would be allowed to speak on amendment No. 10 in accordance with Standing Orders.

Of course the Labour Party will be allowed to speak on their amendment.

We have been threatened again with another guillotine by the man sitting in front of you.

So you are arguing on the possibility.

Oh, no. We are arguing on low standards in high high places.

We are arguing on Standing Orders.

Will you ask the Minister to stand up and make a statement?

Deputy Dowling is not a member of the Labour Party and, as far as we are concerned, Deputy Dr. Browne is speaking to this amendment.

I am calling Deputy Dowling.

Deputy Dowling has no right to speak in this debate at this stage.

I am not going to speak on your amendment at all. I am speaking on amendment No. 9.

Under Standing Order No. 40 he may not speak on it until it is moved and seconded.

He has no right to speak on this amendment at this stage.

I am not speaking on the Deputy's amendment.

Under Standing Order 40 he may not speak on it until it has been seconded.

Either we have a Chair or we do not have a Chair.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

(Interruptions.)

If the Chair allows Deputy Dr. Browne to speak on the Labour Party amendment, there will be no problem.

I want to speak on amendment No. 9.

Deputy Dr. Browne will, of course, be allowed to speak on the Labour amendment.

In relation to amendment No. 9——

Up to this afternoon we might have accepted your assurance. We can no longer accept your assurance that we will be allowed to put our views in this House, as a result of the guillotine motion introduced by the Minister for Justice.

(Interruptions.)

Either we shall speak on this amendment now or the amendment will be taken separately after amendment No. 9 is disposed of.

Now, who is dictating to the Chair about who will be called?

We are stating the facts as we see them.

I shall give the Deputy a lecture on democracy in a few minutes.

We will undertake not to move the closure if the Labour Party are allowed to discuss the amendment.

The Chair should be allowed to be heard on this matter.

(Interruptions.)

I do not propose to go over the whole ground again.

We gave way to the Minister who then called Deputy Dowling.

(Interruptions.)

Deputy Dowling.

Am I right in holding that under Standing Order No. 40 Deputy Dowling may not debate amendment No. 10 because it has not been seconded?

Nonsense. I have told the Deputy the position.

Standing Order No. 40 says that a motion or an amendment shall not be debated——

We are not discussing Standing Order No. 40 because having disposed of Standing Order No. 40 the Deputy will come up with another Standing Order.

Is it not clear that Deputy Dowling may not speak on amendment No. 10 which has not been moved or seconded?

This has been the procedure in the House since the House was established.

Is this Standing Order obsolete? Does it not apply?

We are discussing two amendments.

Standing Order No. 40 says that a motion or amendment shall not be debated until it has been seconded. Amendment No. 10 has not been either moved or seconded. Therefore, in accordance with Standing Order No. 40——

I have already told the Deputy that we cannot have two motions before the House. Only one amendment can be——

Debated. Has the Chair read Standing Order No. 40?

The wording of the Standing Order is that a motion or amendment shall not be debated until it has been seconded.

Does the Deputy know what he is talking about?

Does that mean the Standing Order is obsolete?

(Interruptions.)

On a point of information, will the Chair permit the Labour Party, after amendment No. 9 has been discussed and voted on, to move amendment No. 10 and have a debate on amendment No. 10?

The Deputy is asking will amendment No. 10 be debated separately?

But they assured me that the two would be debated together.

If we were allowed to put the points we will make on amendment No. 10——

The party will be allowed, as they have always been allowed——

Surely the Chair will appreciate that speakers on the Government side will be commenting on what they think is before the House. How can they do that if we are not allowed to put our point of view on amendment No. 10? The Chair cannot have it both ways and should either allow the amendment to be discussed and voted on separately—it will be voted on separately—or alternatively, let us speak to it now and allow others to come in afterwards.

(Interruptions.)

Amendment No. 10 separately. It is now agreed that amendment No. 10 will be discussed separately.

In relation to this very important Bill I may say at the outset that it is understandable that the Fine Gael Party and the Labour Party, particularly the latter, chose to interrupt as they have done because in this section they choose to protect subversive groups and elements; they choose to protect the bullyboys, the thugs and others who want to deprive the people who are rightfully entitled to accommodation of their just rights.

On a point of order, at considerable length and with much repetition the Minister for Transport and Power earlier indicated to the Chair that Deputy Fitzpatrick was out of order when he was merely developing a point. I want to suggest that Deputy Dowling is very much out of order; he has not come near the amendment at all.

Deputy Dowling has scarcely been speaking for one minute.

(Interruptions.)

I want to speak about the amendment section and the section as it is. It is easy to understand why the Fine Gael Party and the Labour Party——

On a point of order, the Deputy has expressed the intention not only of speaking on the amendment but also on the section as it is. I was ruled out of order, and immediately accepted the ruling, when I tried to discuss the wording of the section as it is. I was told—very properly, I am sure—to discuss the amendment and I complied with that order. This Deputy now proposes to discuss the section and the Chair sits there and lets it go.

The Deputy's leader spoke on the Bill.

I shall take the ruling of the Chair.

It is hard to know who is the Chair now.

(Interruptions.)

Is the Chair going to answer? Is the Deputy to be allowed to discuss the section?

Will the Deputy please sit down? He has said all this before. The position is that amendment No. 9 is before the House.

The answer is: "Sit down; a Fianna Fáil speaker is speaking and he can say anything he likes."

Before I was so rudely interrupted by a Deputy who spoke today for six hours on one word——

In the course of Deputy Cruise-O'Brien's speech he referred to a number of people and a number of words far outside the scope of the particular amendment on which he was speaking. One of the references he made was in relation to Lady Montague, Oxford English Dictionary, volume 3. In his reference to subsection (1) of the Bill he referred to this honourable lady in the following terms: Lady M. W. Montague stated that no woman dares encourage two lovers at a time. How that refers to this Bill beats me. He went further to quote Rogers in relation to this section and this is what Rogers had to say, as he was quoted: “The famous were allowed to encourage venturous boys in bringing in young birds for the purpose of training.” How these particular quotations apply to the Bill I do not know.

Did he use those quotations?

Yes, they are on record. The first one was in relation to Lady M.W. Montague: "No woman dares encourage two lovers at a time." I do not know to whom he was referring. I cannot see any reference to that in the Bill.

The word "encourage" is in it, but then the Deputy did not notice that.

The other one is more important, and I hope the Labour Party will clarify the situation when they are speaking on the rest of the Bill so that other Fianna Fáil speakers will be able to understand the intellectuals of the Labour Party. Rogers, as he said, was around to encourage venturous boys in bringing in young birds for the purpose of training. How they refer to this Prohibition of Forcible Entry and Occupation Bill I cannot say. Does he mean that the birds were brought in to squat? Does he mean that the young men who encouraged these venturous boys to bring in the birds for the purpose of training——

I would hate to prevent Deputy Dowling being picked up by an agent who might be in the Gallery listening to his comic turn, but I would point out that a closure was moved on the amendment on which Deputy Dowling is speaking; that was the one dealing with encouragement. If we are to continue with that, then surely the closure motion which has been moved and carried has been wasted?

This is just to give some idea of how far removed from the Bill the Labour speaker was in his six-hour marathon speech with 13 volumes in front of him.

Which shows the Deputy did not understand what he was saying.

No. He had been defining "birds".

The Deputy did not understand the word "ornithology".

Perhaps Deputy Dowling would come to the amendment.

I am dealing with the amendment to the subsection and it must be taken as a whole. It is difficult to divide the provision in two. I want to deal with it line by line——

Amendment No. 9.

——just as he dealt with it bird by bird. The Members of the Fine Gael Party and the Labour Party were loud in their criticism of this party not so very long ago saying that not a single Deputy from this side spoke today. It was difficult for a speaker to stand up here when Deputy Conor Cruise-O'Brien, the bird fancier, spent so much time dealing with matters which were completely removed from the Bill. He certainly confused me to some degree.

That would not be difficult.

Deputy O'Connell, in common with other Members of the Labour Party, is endeavouring to ensure that the bullyboys that I mentioned early on, the queers and other groups, are protected. This is an effort to protect them from the law.

The Deputy should come to the amendment. This has nothing to do with the amendment.

On a point of order——

This subsection deals——

We are dealing with the amendment.

The Deputy is dealing with everything but the amendment.

This must be taken in conjunction with the subsection. So far as I have found, there is no reference in the Bill to the Press or the freedom of the Press.

Simple man.

I am just a simple man. I am not an intellectual like the Deputy.

So simple that it is unbelievable.

I have not seen any effort in this legislation to stifle the Press or to create a provision that would interfere with the freedom of the Press.

Joke over.

The only occasion on which an effort was made by politicians to muzzle the Press was not so long ago when members of the Labour Party applied pressure on the journalists to ensure that they would not report the activities of the Springboks.

This was specifically ruled out of order when I endeavoured to reply to charges of this nature. Why is it in order on this amendment when it was not in order on the last amendment!

There is different order on the two sides of the House.

Are we to get no answer to points of order any more?

Section 7 gives three years in jail to a journalist if he commits an offence under this Bill.

There is no reference whatsoever to journalists or the Press in the Bill.

That is the way you do it.

Could we have a little order so that I can hear what Deputy Dowling is saying?

He is completely out of order.

The only effort I can remember being made to silence the Press was that made by Members of the Labour Party when the Springboks were here some time ago and when pressure was applied to try to ensure that no report would be made of the Springboks' activities.

Not by law.

Anything goes. Is this in order? What has this to do with the amendment?

When an effort was made——

Would Deputy Dowling allow me to say that amendment No. 9 refers to reasonable comment on a matter of public interest in any newspaper, magazine, periodical or book, and I take it that Deputy Dowling is referring to——

If it is in order for him to refer to this, I presume it will be in order for us to do so.

The Deputy will recall he was speaking on a different amendment.

We accept that.

May I point out that on a previous occasion when Deputy Fitzpatrick made references to the Press's treatment of the withdrawal of the dole he was not permitted by the Chair to pursue that? Is Deputy Dowling to be permitted to raise a similar matter without being ruled out of order?

Does the Chair wish that some time be given to consider the handling of the Order of Business?

(Interruptions.)

The Leas-Cheann Comhairle was in the Chair at the time.

I want to draw your attention, Sir, to the comments of Deputy Fitzpatrick in relation to this subsection.

A Cheann Comhairle, are you giving a ruling on the point raised by Deputy McMahon?

I did not make any such ruling.

I am not questioning whether you made such a ruling, but are you making a distinction between your rulings and those of the Leas-Cheann Comhairle?

I am not making any such distinction. The Leas-Cheann Comhairle ruled as he heard the remarks.

The Leas-Cheann Comhairle ruled——

I am not going to be subjected to cross-examination by Deputy Harte.

What is the decision arising from the point of order?

I have already ruled on the question of Deputy Dowling mentioning these matters.

We ought to accept the Chair's ruling.

We are greatly indebted for that concession.

(Interruptions.)

(Cavan): I should like to put on the records of this House that I spoke under difficult circumstances for an hour after the closure motion. The Minister for Transport and Power was in the Minister's seat and I tried to refer to the fact that the Press had intervened in the dole dispute. The Minister rose on about 35 points of order. It is difficult to follow what is in order and out of order on this debate.

That matter has been dealt with by the Chair and I have no comment to make.

We are aware that an effort was made some time ago to stifle the Press in relation to certain activities in this city. Trade unionists like Deputy Michael O'Leary and his colleagues, Deputies Cruise-O'Brien and Noel Browne, wanted to ensure that the Press would be handcuffed by methods other than what they suggest here. They wanted to ensure that visitors who came to the country were subjected to pressures to ensure that they would not be served meals, and that the Press would not publish reports about it. They wanted to ensure when they endeavoured to see that facilities would be withdrawn from the tourists that that would not be reported in the Press. The same thing applies in relation to hotel accommodation. They attempted to cover up. They used all sorts of pressures to ensure that visitors to this country could not get the facilities to which they were entitled. They endeavoured to intimidate the Press. That is the only occasion I can remember of anyone trying to handcuff the Press in any way or to ensure that the filthy action of the Labour Party would not get to the public.

On a point of order, the Deputy referred to "the filthy action of the Labour Party." We did not use that kind of language.

That is mild by comparison with what you used.

These political charges are made from time to time.

People with limited vocabularies have to use the words they know.

We do not all have Deputy Cruise-O'Brien's capacity for invective.

(Interruptions.)

The Deputy said we were creating crimes. The Parliamentary Secretary intruded.

I would expect a high level of understanding from the Deputy.

This was the filthy action of the Labour Party to try to starve tourists and intimidate the Press. They tried to ensure that their dirty action would be covered up but the Press on that occasion, as on this occasion, reported honourably and correctly. They have that freedom now and they had it then and they did not bow to the pressures of the Labour Party, of Deputy Cruise-O'Brien and Deputy M. O'Leary who tried to intimidate them on that occasion. The Press was free then and responded in a correct manner.

(Interruptions.)

The Labour Party wanted to ensure that their crimes on that occasion would not reach the ears of the public. The Press were correct in rebutting men like Deputy Michael O'Leary. I understand many of the Springboks whom they endeavoured to starve out and to deprive of facilities were trade unionists. They are now trying to ensure that protection of the bullyboys. When we see what happened last night with the Labour Party, the Communist Party of Ireland, the socialists and a variety of other groups——

And the NUJ.

What is the Deputy reading from?

This document which came from 50 Oak House.

Has the Deputy quoted accurately?

I do not believe he has. That is not the way it was reported in this morning's papers. Who produced that? Was it the Fianna Fáil Party?

The Connolly Youth Movement, the Young Socialists——

That was not the way it was reported in this morning's newspapers.

I am not responsible for the way it was reported in this morning's newspapers.

This has nothing to do with the amendment.

The Deputy was throwing dirt.

I was accused of misquoting.

And rightly so.

You were in very good company last night with the Communist Party of Ireland, the Connolly Youth Movement and other subversive groups.

I was at home last night.

This is an effort to ensure that these people will be protected in any type of activity that they care to embark on even if it is to deprive people of accommodation they are duly entitled to.

How long have you been a member of Saor Éire?

I was never in Saor Éire.

We have certain reports on you.

Deputy O'Leary——

We know about the Deputy's membership of Saor Éire.

I am not a member of the Communist Party of Ireland like Deputy O'Leary.

(Interruptions.)

The Labour Party are endeavouring to protect the bullyboys, the queers and the birds. They want to ensure that——

On a point of order, is this amendment about the Labour Party?

This is amendment No. 9 and the Chair suggests that Deputy Dowling is entitled to make his case in regard to it.

(Interruptions.)

The idea of the Labour Party amendment to subsection (1) is to ensure that these particular groups who want to deprive people of accommodation will be protected.

This is a Fine Gael amendment, it is not our amendment.

In relation to amendment No. 9 which relates to subsection (1) of section 4 we are aware of the activities of the members of the Labour Party who are now hiding behind the Fine Gael amendment and who I am quite sure will support the Fine Gael amendment. This is done for the purpose of ensuring that people will be deprived of accommodation when these groups say so just as they have been in the past. Deputy O'Leary encouraged people to squat in the city and so deprive workers and trade unionists who were legitimately on the waiting list from getting a home of their own.

Why do the Government not provide the houses?

Deputy O'Leary has deprived people entitled to accommodation of accommodation by having people squat in their homes.

(Cavan): Since it is not unlikely that the closure may be applied again on this amendment I would respectfully point out to the House that it is essential speakers should be relevant to the amendment. This particular amendment deals with an amendment to subsection (1) of section 4 which proposes to exclude the Press and certain books and periodicals from that section. I was not permitted to make more than a passing reference to newspaper comment on the dole et cetera and yet this Deputy is being allowed to roam over the entire area.

Did the Deputy not read out the leading articles from the papers four times? Surely I should have an opportunity to discuss subsection (1)? I am in favour of subsection (1) as it stands and I am against amendment No. 9.

We are not on the section yet, we are on the amendment.

The Deputy is entitled to make his argument as to why it should not be accepted.

We are not on the section yet. Deputy Dowling has said he wants to talk about subsection (1).

(Interruptions.)

I should like the Chair's advice. What does amendment No. 9 refer to, is it subsection (1)?

The Deputy should know by now that the Chair leaves it to individual Deputies to think what they like in regard to individual sections; the Chair guides them as best it can afterwards.

I am in favour of retaining subsection (1) in its present form. My reason is to ensure that groups of people will not be able to dictate to this city who will live in certain houses. This is what has been happening in the city. Efforts are now being made to cover up and support the action of the groups who have been responsible for depriving people on the waiting list for homes.

What about the way the Government behave?

Subsection (1) as it stands gives adequate protection to people who are allocated homes. Whatever groups may be encouraged by members of the Labour Party or the other subversive organisations I have mentioned will be subject to the law. The law will be applied to them to ensure that they will not carry on a campaign as they have done of putting people in houses to which they were not entitled and thereby depriving women and children of a home to which they were entitled.

The Deputy wants a monopoly.

What about the people you put in the houses?

We have had grave abuses in the city——

The Deputy will have to keep to the amendment.

(Interruptions.)

I am against amendment No. 9.

The Deputy should be allowed to make his case for or against the amendment.

It is quite obvious that both the Labour and the Fine Gael Parties do not want to hear the truth in relation to the protection of people who are entitled to services in this city.

This is not what we are discussing at the moment.

On a point of order, Deputy Dowling is referring to the Housing Act, 1970.

That is not a point of order.

Surely the Deputy must speak to the amendment on the Forcible Entry Bill and not on the Housing Act?

The Chair has directed Deputy Dowling's attention to the fact that it is amendment No. 9 to section 4 which is being discussed and not housing or other matters like that.

(Interruptions.)

Deputy O'Leary wants to know why I have a house of my own.

The Deputy need not and should not answer these questions at all.

It is a silly question and I suppose I should not be bothering my head with his type during the course of this important debate.

Grave difficulties.

As I said before, I am against this amendment to subsection (1) of section 4. I prefer subsection (1) as it stands. I can see no reference in the section to the Press. The Press are able to deal with the situation as it affects them in a very effective way. Nobody has endeavoured to tie the Press in any way but there is an effort from this back-up service of the Labour Party to ensure that certain groups of people will be protected from legislation of any kind so that they can, when they desire, decide who will occupy either corporation or private dwellings. For some time past we have seen people being deprived of their accommodation. To my way of thinking any legislation that protects the rights of people to accommodation is worthwhile.

The Chair has allowed the Deputy a certain amount of latitude but would now ask him to come to the amendment before the House.

That is unfortunate for the Deputy.

The only other occasion on which the Press were denied facilities was when they were locked out from the Labour Party Conference because they could not be trusted.

That is irrelevant.

If Fianna Fáil had known in advance what was to happen at their Ard-Fheis, the Press would have been locked out too.

Ours was a democratic gathering.

I am drawing the Deputy's attention to amendment No. 9.

The Press have adequate safeguards. These people are more courageous than the Labour Party and they will endeavour to do what they believe to be right and, if they do that, there is no problem.

Right, according to Fianna Fáil.

Deputy Dowling should be allowed to make his case.

When efforts were made not so long ago to handcuff the Press, they were not intimidated by Deputy Cruise-O'Brien.

This does not arise on the amendment.

When we read this particular amendment in relation to subsection (1), it seems to me that it does arise.

The Chair will not allow its ruling to be questioned and, if Deputies will not keep to the amendment, the Chair will ask them to resume their seats.

The Deputy must obey the Chair's ruling.

The Deputy who is trying to make his case is entitled to do so without interruption. We would be much better off if everybody co-operated in this matter.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

I think Deputy Dowling has concluded.

He is finished, anyway.

I am only beginning. I wish to deal with this amendment in a more effective way.

That would not be difficult.

We have seen here tonight how the Opposition Parties have endeavoured to deprive those of us on this side of the House the opportunity of free speech and an opportunity of upholding their amendment. They have endeavoured to monopolise the speaking time of the House backed by their usual 13 volumes of the Oxford Dictionary. The pressures that have been applied tonight by them might be applied also by them in relation to the Press irrespective of whether there is a section such as this in legislation.

If this section goes through, it will be applied to them.

The Chair is not interested in what happened here earlier tonight. At present the Chair is interested only in amendment No. 9.

I can see no reference here to the Press and it is my belief that the Press, as a responsible body, will report the situation as they see it at any given time. They will not be intimidated either by legislation or by individuals. There is no effort being made in this Bill to stifle the Press in any way. This amendment is a tactic of the Labour and Fine Gael Parties in their efforts to bolster up and protect subversive groups who wish to operate freely throughout the country, to disrupt the affairs of local authorities and to take over houses, both local authority and private. Although the Press publish what they believe to be right, erroneous reports appear occasionally such as the report in today's Irish Independent concerning the affairs of Fianna Fáil.

This has nothing to do with the amendment.

While we accept that inaccuracies can occur, the right to make reasonable comment has never been questioned. We know also that offences such as encouraging persons to take over a plane at Shannon, or occupying buildings in the city and disrupting the day to day affairs of people and endeavouring to put people out of employment by taking over——

Again, the Deputy is moving wide of the amendment.

It may be wide of the amendment but surely I am entitled to say why I believe the amendment is not necessary?

The Deputy will assist the Chair by keeping to the amendment.

It is difficult to understand the references that have been made during the debate and which have confused the issue. Some of the references made during the six-hour marathon of Deputy Cruise-O'Brien——

That debate cannot be reopened now.

I am not sure whether the reference made by Deputy Cruise-O'Brien relates to the Press but they certainly did not relate to the particular aspect that he was discussing at the time.

Whatever references there were, they have been disposed of by now.

(Cavan): A closure was put on the debate.

In relation to two references made by Deputy Cruise-O'Brien——

The Deputy may not go back on a debate that took place on a previous amendment.

I am not in favour of this amendment but surely I can speak in favour of the subsection as it is as against the amendment.

The Deputy must keep to the amendment.

I am speaking in favour of the subsection as it stands, and opposing the amendment.

We are dealing with the amendment.

Let us guillotine and then waste time. That is the method.

That is a very interesting comment from that six-hour speaker——

I did not waste any time.

——who told us all about the birds and the bees. A person who encourages or advocates the commission of an offence——

We are on amendment No. 9.

This amendment seeks to enlarge the subsection by an addition after "offence". This amendment is not at all necessary. It is designed not for the purpose of protecting the Press, but for the purpose of protecting the groups I mentioned earlier who have other ideas about the breakdown of the democratic system, about the occupation of buildings, of houses, of factories, of workshops, of planes, and so on, in some cases depriving workers of their employment. The subsection as it stands will ensure that people who advocate the commission of an offence will be adequately dealt with. If the Labour Party or the Fine Gael Party feel that they want to protect people who are entitled to accommodation, to protect the jobs and homes of Irish workers then they will be in favour of this subsection as it stands. There is no need to bring in the red herring of the Press. The Press have not been mentioned in this section.

We are dealing with the amendment in which the Press is mentioned—newspapers, magazines, periodicals and books.

That is what the amendment says.

That is what is before the House.

We are on the amendment.

Joe is not. He is on something else.

This amendment is not necessary at all. I do not know what magazines they want to protect or what periodicals or books. I do not know what they are seeking to protect. The Press can adequately handle their own situation. They do not need the support of the Labour Party or the Fine Gael Party. It may be that they are trying to rally support but I am sure that when the Press report tomorrow the affairs of this House today——

Is the Deputy quoting John Healy now?

Deputy Dowling is entitled to make his case.

If he has one to make.

When the Press reports tomorrow on the affairs of the House today I am certain they will report in a very factual way.

John Healy does not think much of politics.

This six-hour marathon——

This is not relevant to the amendment.

——of Deputy Cruise-O'Brien will be reported and the people will then have an opportunity of judging who tries to deprive others of certain freedoms. The effort was made here tonight to deprive me and to deprive other Members of this party of an opportunity of speaking on the amendment.

When is the Deputy going to start?

There was not a mention of anything that was contained in the amendment. We had all sorts of points of order, points of information, rude interruptions, and when one wants to quote the leaflet that was handed round yesterday——

This has nothing to do with the amendment and the Deputy is well aware of that.

This is a publication. Is this the type of nonsense they want to protect? It is erroneous in every way.

Even the list on it is erroneous.

No. It is erroneous in relation to who would be affected by the Bill.

We are dealing with amendment No. 9.

Is this the type of document the Fine Gael Party want to ensure is circulated, giving erroneous information? Maybe it is. Maybe they do not want the facts of the situation to be known. That could be one of the reasons why they tried to deprive the people on this side of the House of an opportunity of speaking.

Where did the Deputy get this document? I never saw it and I am a Member of the House. Will the Deputy give me this document?

I will not. This document will be used from time to time.

Oh, sure. At the next election if you can, but you cannot pull the same trick twice.

If this is the type of document they want to protect——

For the information of the Chair, will the Deputy let the Chair know what document he is referring to?

"Kill the Bill" is the heading and "Dev Don't Sign" and it is issued by the Committee to Oppose Repressive Legislation, 50 Oak House, Sussex Road, Dublin 4.

This, of course, has nothing to do with the amendment before the House.

I wonder is this the type of document that this amendment seeks to protect.

The previous amendment dealt with things like that.

This amendment. The other one was about the birds and the bees, Lady Montague and——

Regretfully the Chair will have to ask the Deputy to either stay with the amendment or to resume his seat.

(Interruptions.)

The Chair is quite willing to listen to the Deputy on the amendment.

I am sure no honourable journalist would produce a document of this type. Therefore, one has no need to fear but if documents of this type are being produced——

On a point of order, the amendment relates to any reasonable comment on a matter of public interest in any newspaper, magazine, periodical or book. What is this document Deputy Dowling is talking about?

A periodical.

No, it is not.

(Interruptions.)

We do not often have a Bill of this sort before the House. Kill the Bill. Is that the periodical? I did not get this document.

We all got it.

(Interruptions.)

Deputy Dowling on the amendment. It is not in order to quote from this document. The Chair has already ruled that this matter is irrelevant.

Of course it is.

It is important that one should make the facts of the situation known, that there are documents, that there are periodicals, that are conveying a completely erroneous impression to the public.

Like The Voice of the North.

This is one of them and I want to find out whether this is the type of document Deputies Fitzpatrick and Cooney want to protect.

The Deputy must be talking about the Truth in the News.

It says here: "The Prohibition of Forcible Entry and Occupation Bill, 1970——

The Deputy will not be allowed to proceed like that. The amendment deals quite plainly with newspapers, magazines, periodicals or books. It does not deal with documents. This has already been ruled on.

If a periodical indicates that a Bill has already gone through the House, as this one does, it is giving a completely erroneous impression to the public. I should like to know what kind of documents they have in mind. Will they produce documents in the future that will convey an erroneous impression to the public? I am certain Fine Gael have something in mind they might wish to produce in the future and they seek to protect themselves before they embark on this.

It appears the Deputy has transferred his attention from the Labour Party for the moment.

The two parties are the same.

It is my opinion the Chair is allowing the Deputy to depart from the amendment.

The Chair will form its own opinions on such matters.

I do not dispute anything the Chair has said. I shall keep to the amendment.

Since I have been in the House the Deputy has not spoken on the amendment.

The Deputy must not be here for very long. Reasonable comment on a matter of public interest does not constitute an offence. I cannot understand why Deputies are trying to read an offence into the section when this is not the case.

This is what the Bill is about.

The only people endeavouring to read offences into the Bill are members of Fine Gael and Labour. Reasonable comment does not, and could not, constitute an offence.

Why is this not stated? The Deputy has spoken a lot of rubbish on this Bill.

Deputy Dowling should be allowed to make his case. The Chair is prepared to listen and Deputies should allow him to speak.

Provided he is reasonable.

If Deputies consider he is unreasonable they know what they can do.

I know what they would like to do.

Nobody need fear that reasonable comment, either in the House or outside, constitutes an offence. There is no need for the inclusion of this amendment.

There is no reason for the Bill.

The Press could not be deprived at any time of expressing reasonable comment. An effort has been made to read something into the Bill that is not there and the people responsible have gone to the extent of putting down this amendment in order to confuse people. However, they have not fooled the Press, this House, or the public because the House and the Press are aware they have all the facilities available to ensure that reasonable comment is possible. As I have pointed out, the only occasion when an effort was made to intimidate people was when Members of this House——

The Deputy is departing from the amendment. The Deputy knows this has been ruled out of order previously.

Do not do as I do but do as I say.

Deputy O'Donovan should allow the Deputy to continue with his speech.

I do not wish to detain the House much longer but I wish to express my views in relation to this amendment which I consider is unnecessary.

The Deputy's views could be written on the back of a postage stamp. He is repeating the same thing since he started his speech.

It has been alleged by Deputy Tully that I have been repeating myself. I would point out that if repetition is necessary in order to get a point across——

Repetition is not necessary—it is disorderly.

Deputy Fitzpatrick and Deputy Cooney tried to indicate there were dangers to journalists in this section but this is not so. The free Press will always be able to comment freely on matters of public interest.

Why not say so, then?

The Labour Party were the only people who endeavoured to handcuff the Press in any way. The Labour Party will not let them into conventions——

This is not relevant.

We saw what happened to the man with the camera at the Fianna Fáil Ard-Fheis—you did not get the coat over him in time.

I do not know what the Deputy means. That is not in the amendment we are discussing. Deputy Tully is now reading into the section something about a man with a camera. A person can print offensive pictures, and I mentioned that point to the House when I spoke recently about the dog that enticed Deputy Keating into the Labour Party. Having expressed my opposition to this amendment, I shall give other Deputies an opportunity to speak.

On behalf of the Labour Party I should like to support this amendment which provides for the insertion of the following words:

provided always and it is hereby declared that reasonable comment on a matter of public interest in any newspaper, magazine, periodical or book shall not constitute an offence under this subsection.

All we are asking is to allow "reasonable comment" on a matter of public interest. If there is a housing problem, if houses fall down and people are homeless and an editor is prompted to write about their plight and to ask that some provision be made for them, or if some people find themselves in difficulty, out on the street or seeking shelter in some little hovel and an editor supports them and says they are morally justified in doing that he should not go to jail. This is a safeguard we would like to see written into this Bill. It is one of the last attempts we will make to ensure that freedom of the Press is assured.

The Minister has said that freedom of the Press has been guaranteed all along and all he wants to do is to spell out the law as it is for them. The Minister said: "I want it to be clear to people" but there is no need for it to be clear because anyone who edits a newspaper knows about limitations, knows about reasonable comment, knows that he can speak about social matters; but the Minister by section 4 has made things completely different for him. An editor, by the fear that it could be applied, could be prevented from commenting on matters of public importance.

This amendment is not one that Fianna Fáil could reasonably object to. If Fianna Fáil object to this amendment we are on our way to a fascist State. This is an opportunity being granted to them to ensure that the Press remain free. It is an opportunity for them to say: "We have no bad intentions towards the Press; we have no intention of stifling public opinion as expressed in newspapers; we have no intention of curbing them in their criticism or comment."

That has been said.

We seek to have this amendment included in the Bill so that when the present Minister for Justice and the present Government are gone and when the interpretation of the courts is sought they may read this reasonable amendment included in the Bill. The last Deputy put forward no reasonable argument against the amendment. All he said was that it would not be accepted. If the editor of a newspaper wishes to comment on any social problem in this city he should be able to do so without fear of being brought to court.

It is not inciting people to do wrong by asking that the words "reasonable comment" be inserted. It is not encouraging people, as the Minister says, to break the law. The words "reasonable comment" leave it to the interpretation of the courts to say what they mean. Since the 18th century, when a newspaper is brought before the courts on libellous matters it can plead before a jury that it was reasonable comment. We believe that this freedom is being taken from them in this Bill. The Minister has not convinced us otherwise.

There would have been no need for section 4 of this Bill if freedom of the Press was guaranteed. The danger to the freedom of the Press is there in that section. It is not the Fine Gael Party or the Labour Party who say this. It is the newspapers of the country who say it. They have been alert to the dangers of this section and have condemned the present Government. The Cork Examiner said in an editorial: “It is not often that this newspaper takes a stand on an issue to criticise the Government.” They had their fears about section 4 of the Forcible Entry Bill. They knew that the freedom of the Press was in danger. The Irish Times said that this section was so dangerous that they could be stifled altogether and that it was obvious that the Bill would have to be challenged in the courts because the Government had gone so far in section 4.

Deputy Dowling thought it was wrong to put in this amendment. If a Deputy of this House outside this House condemns a situation, condemns the pollution in Dublin Bay, and if he suggests that the people take action about it and the Press comment on that or support him and say, perhaps, he is right, unless this amendment is accepted the Press will find themselves in trouble.

If the Minister and Government are so confident that the freedom of the Press is not at stake, why will they not accept this amendment? This is the test, this is their opportunity to prove that this is not a fascist Bill. This is their opportunity to demonstrate that it is not their intention to muzzle the Press. I do not believe for a moment that they will take it because in the past year the Press have found it necessary to criticise the Government. Even the Irish Press, a servile organ of the Government Party—as a matter of fact the circulation of that newspaper depended on cumann subscriptions——

Will the Deputy come back to the amendment?

I have to talk about the Press. We had no freedom of the Press in this country except in a few cases. The Irish Press is the organ of Fianna Fáil and its circulation depended on the subscriptions of cumann members. A transformation took place in that newspaper. A new editor was appointed——

The Deputy should come to the amendment.

I certainly will. I am not disagreeing with you but I was trying to point out that more and more we are getting a free Press. This is becoming evident to Fianna Fáil: they have begun to realise that the Press are free, untrammelled, unfettered, and this could be a bad thing——

It is not. There was a libel action taken against the Press and court fines were imposed.

The amendment deals with reasonable comment.

I am glad you clarified that for the Parliamentary Secretary.

The Deputy was talking about a free Press. I am sorry for interrupting the Deputy. I do not wish to hold him up.

The Parliamentary Secretary said last night that he would go on until October.

On a point of order, before the House adjourns I should like to find out what is the position about those massive tomes which are being displayed here long after the user had finished.

They are the property of Deputy Cruise-O'Brien.

That is not a point of order.

There are Dáil Debates here as well. What do we do with them?

Could I have a ruling? Are we to have those things here tomorrow morning when the House resumes?

Surely it is the Parliamentary Secretary who is unruly in interrupting a speaker to make a personal criticism against a member of this party.

I said I did not do it to interrupt the Deputy.

He did interrupt the Deputy.

I do not think he was being callous.

I will give him a present of one—it might improve his education.

Give him one with pictures. The point I was trying to make is that in a democratic country there is no such thing as a completely free Press. Newspapers know that more than anybody—they know the law of libel. What we are trying to ensure here is that the freedom they have will be maintained and not contracted in any way. I do not think that is too much to ask. On the previous amendment the Minister made it clear that the word "encourage"——

We must not go back to previous amendments.

This amendment is a double safeguard. It is a much more reasoned one and it is quite innocuous. It states:

In page 3, line 35, after "offence" where it secondly appears to add "provided always and it is hereby declared that reasonable comment on a matter of public interest in any newspaper, magazine, periodical or book shall not constitute an offence under this subsection.

We would include in that the United Irishman. It is because that would be included that the Minister rejects the amendment. I know in my heart and soul he is determined to get at that newspaper because it criticises the Government on many issues. That paper is allowed even into the north. The intention of this subsection is to get at that newspaper. I should like to see that newspaper continue as an organ of opinion. I should not like to see an end put to it. I have read it often and I have found nothing in it that would undermine public order or morality or undermine the safety of the State. I have written in medical newspapers.

Would I be helping if I raised another point of order?

We could always call a quorum. Does he want a quorum?

They would get heart failure thinking is was a division.

We want to ensure that newspapers, books and magazines are exonerated.

Debate adjourned.
The Dáil adjourned at 10.30 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Friday, 30th July, 1971.
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