Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 17 Nov 1971

Vol. 256 No. 12

Employment Agency Bill, 1971 [Seanad]: Second Stage.

Minister for Labour (Mr. J. Brennan)

"I move that the Bill be now read a Second Time."

The main purposes of the Bill are to provide for the registration of private employment agencies and for the approval of the fees they may charge and to require such agencies to furnish returns of their activities.

As Deputies are aware, this Bill has been debated very fully in Seanad Éireann. I should like to say, too, that it has been improved by suggestions and amendments made by the other House.

The business of employment agencies is defined in the Bill in very wide terms in order to include all persons or bodies engaged in recruiting workers for employment by others. It will not, of course, affect the liberty of an employer to recruit his own workers for employment in his own business. It will, however, include agencies which themselves employ workers to carry out work for other firms.

Some Seanadóirí were anxious that agencies engaged in "high class placement" should be excluded from the terms of the Bill. They were of opinion that consultancy firms engaged in the recruitment of high level staff should be treated differently from those agencies involved in the placing of other workers. For reasons which I explained at length in the Seanad I am not in favour of excluding any group of agencies from the legislation. In my view it would be difficult to justify exclusion of such agencies solely because they specialise in particular types of placings or because they engage in other work—such as consultancy work—as well. However, I will go into this more fully on Committee Stage if Deputies so wish.

I should like to assure the House that employment agencies which carry out their functions in a responsible manner will have nothing to worry about from this legislation.

One aspect of the Bill which gave rise to some discussion was the question of fees. I have made it clear in the other House that it is not proposed to prescribe a scale or scales of fees which would have to be adhered to by all agencies. I introduced an amendment to section 7 in the Seanad to clarify this point. An agency will be required to submit its fees for approval but will be free to vary its charges to individuals within the rates approved. I think it reasonable to expect that commercial competition should prevent the charging of excessive fees. One practice which can occur, and, in fact, has occurred here and elsewhere, is the charging of fees by agencies merely for recording a person's application for work. I inserted a new subsection 7 (2) on Report Stage in the Seanad for the purpose of forbidding this practice.

Since the introduction of the Bill there has been a number of questions asked in this House in regard to the welfare of Irish potato workers in Scotland. The complaints in regard to the welfare of Irish workers abroad in such circumstances emphasise the necessity for having legislation which will allow us to exercise some supervision over the operation of agents, particularly those recruiting workers for employment outside the State. Apart from the potato-pickers issue, there have been some complaints over the years about the activities of employment agents recruiting for employment abroad. I feel that the controls proposed in this Bill are the minimum necessary to guard against abuses in such recruitment. There are obvious difficulties about dealing with this problem in legislation, because many of the actual abuses can take place outside the jurisdiction. The legislation must, therefore, concentrate on the point of recruitment in Ireland and aim at preventing recruitment taking place where irregularities can be anticipated.

The Bill also contains specific provisions relating to the advertising of vacancies for employment abroad. The aim is to eliminate misleading advertisements for employment abroad and the Bill provides for the making of regulations which will ensure that agencies advertising vacancies abroad will give in the advertisements either the name of the employer or of an agent licensed under the Bill. This proposal has been discussed with representatives of the daily and provincial papers and they would welcome it. They feel that such a provision will strengthen their hands in dealing with doubtful advertisements.

I should like here to refer to the International Labour Organisation Convention No. 96 concerning fee-charging employment agencies. We are one of the few countries in western Europe which have not ratified it so far. When this Bill is enacted I expect that this country will be in a position to ratify the convention.

In defining fee-charging employment agencies, the convention distinguishes between employment agencies which are conducted with a view to profit and agencies which, although charging in some form or other for their services, are not conducted with a view to profit. Ratification of the convention requires member countries to introduce some system under which fee-charging employment agencies would be registered. The convention specifies in particular that agencies shall be subject to control in respect of fees and the placement and recruitment of workers for employment abroad.

In brief, the primary purpose of the Bill is to safeguard our workers and employers against unfair practices by employment agencies, whether relating to jobs in Ireland or abroad, including the charging of excessive fees, and to protect our workers from advertisements for employment outside Ireland which are misleading or inaccurate in content. The furnishing of returns of the activities of agencies will also help my Department in the implementation of the Government's manpower policy. Finally, if this Bill becomes law the Government should be in a position to ratify the International Labour Organisation's Convention No. 96 and to bring our practice in relation to employment agencies into line with that of most western European countries.

I commend the Bill to the House for adoption.

Mr. R. Burke

This Bill got a pretty full hearing in Seanad Éireann last March. As a result of the representations of Members of the Seanad the Minister brought in some changes. The Bill is to be welcomed in regulating, to some extent, the activities in this area. Perhaps we would have been better served had the Minister given us a brief, historical outline of the necessity for these agencies and the reason why they have been established over the last number of years. There is one aspect of this matter to which I would like to draw attention. This is the situation of au pair employment in this country and the difficulties which arise under it. In the Seanad it was pointed out by a Member that London County Council, as far back as 1921, had regulations under bye-laws which, to some extent, regulated the situation. Bye-law No. 11 reads:

An agent shall not propose or arrange for the employment abroad of any female person under the age of 18 years without first obtaining the sanction in writing of her parents or lawful guardian and unless he has satisfied himself that suitable arrangements have been made for the welfare of such person during the continuance of such employment and for her return to this country on the conclusion of such employment and that such employment is legal in the country in which the employment is to take place; and on making an engagement with such person he shall furnish to her free of cost a written document containing the provisions of this bye-law and stating that such provisions have been complied with; and he shall keep on the premises the written sanction of the parents or guardian for a period of 12 months from the date of the making of the engagement and shall, when required, produce such written sanction to any inspector or duly authorised officer of the council. The agent shall in any particular case, if so required by the council, furnish the council with full particulars of the arrangements.

Regulation Bye-law No. 12 states, and this applies in every case, whether it be a female person under the age of 18 years or not:

An agent shall, in every case in which he arranges for the employment abroad of any person or of the employment in this country of any person resident abroad, furnish such person free of charge with a copy of the contract or other document showing the terms and conditions of such employment drawn up in a language understood by such person and he shall keep a copy of such contract or other document on the premises for a period of 12 months from the date thereof and shall, when required, produce such copy, contract or other document to any inspector or duly authorised officer of the council.

There seems to be some merit in bye-laws of this type. As was mentioned in the Seanad, it is about time that these excellent conditions were incorporated in our statute law. One of the great difficulties, and this was raised in the Seanad, is that of distinguishing between what one might call the run-of-the-mill agency and agencies catering for professional people at a pretty high level of recruitment. The Minister adverted to this in his speech or in his reply to the Seanad. Perhaps this matter could be more fully dealt with on Committee Stage.

This Bill could more adequately be dealt with on Committee Stage but I have one comment which I would like to make concerning this matter. It is not proposed that a scale of fees should be exhibited in each employment agency but that the Minister should have the right to allow a certain scale to fees. The Minister will not prescribe fees but will allow them. This means that the Minister can disallow any scale of fees until the right scale is achieved. One of the things to be applauded in this Bill is the right to go to a higher tribunal, the High Court, in any appeal from the Minister's decision. In general, we are in broad agreement with the principle of this Bill. The Minister has referred to the abuses abroad in relation to potato-pickers and others. In relation to the ILO Convention No. 96 the Minister says that it is necessary to have this Bill in order to be able to ratify that convention in this country. I understand that this convention has not been ratified in England. As was pointed out before, our particular conditions are closer to those of England than those of the Continent in regard to this matter. Part 2 of the convention to which the Minister referred provides for the progressive abolition of fee-charging employment agencies conducted with a view to profit. Part 3 provides for the regulation of fee-charging employment agencies including the agencies conducted with a view to profit. Perhaps this is implied in the terms of the Bill but we would like to see a more clearly expressed declaration of Government policy on this matter. The Minister, in replying to the debate on Committee Stage, might like to refer to this matter. In general we welcome this Bill.

Mr. Desmond

I should like to welcome this essential piece of social legislation on behalf of the trade union and labour movement generally. The legislation is very much overdue. The Minister is to be commended on bringing in this Bill even at this late stage in the history of social and industrial legislation in this country. At the moment some 60-odd employment agencies are in operation, the vast majority of which operate from Dublin addresses. Most of them are reputable but some of them are not. I feel that the Minister has, quite rightly, brought in general legislation which will provide elementary public protection for Irish men and women and young people who must offer their skills on the labour market at large. An effective step towards that elementary public protection is contained in this Bill.

The Bill is essentially a preventative measure, preventing exploitation, abuse and questionable practices where conditions of employment are accepted by individual workers applying for employment. I am glad to note that the Minister has indicated that, on the adoption of this Bill, he will be in a position to ratify the ILO Convention No. 96. It should be pointed out that that convention, as a general principle, hopes to see all countries abolishing the practice whereby workers generally, or employers, would have to pay a fee in respect of somebody being taken on and given a job. This is one of the essential provisions of that ILO Convention. I see nothing wrong in that because I think in a properly organised, Christian, humanitarian and socially conscious society neither an employee nor an employer should have to actually pay somebody in order to provide a job for some person. The overriding hope that we have here that this Convention will be adopted by the Minister is certainly very welcome by the Labour Party and indeed, as indicated by Deputy Richard Burke, it is also welcomed by the Fine Gael Party.

A number of questions might be raised here on this Bill. We are anxious to expedite this Bill, and if the Minister wishes he can have all Stages today. This Bill has been going through since last January and the sooner we get it on the Statute Book the better. I welcome in particular the provision, which we hope to see in operation, in relation to the placing of advertisements concerning employment in newspapers. I understand that the Minister in the debate in the Seanad and in other statements he made indicated he has had appropriate discussions with the representatives of the daily and the provincial newspapers and that they have welcomed the provision regarding advertisements for employment abroad.

The elimination of misleading advertisements, which will prevent the placing of advertisements by outside agencies or by domestic agencies acting on behalf of employers on the Continent or further abroad, is certainly very welcome to the newspaper proprietors, and particularly welcome to the trade union movement. Many of the newspaper advertisements in relation to employment in this country are indeed, open to question. Many such advertisements do not even state the name of the employer. That practice is undesirable. I have seen quite a large number of firms who have suffered from a sense of closed mindedness in terms of employment and who suffer extraordinary reluctance in telling even their own employees of a vacancy in their undertaking. They place the usual advertisements in the newspapers headed by: "National concern requires" this, that or the other in terms of employment. Very frequently underneath one finds that the advertisement is inserted by an employment agency or a consultancy firm. If we hope to have a democratic society in this country advertisement in relation to employment by all employers, whether they be employers of a trade union character, a private enterprise character, a public enterprise character or by Departments of State—we know Departments of State indicate their appropriate employment opportunities—should be openly inserted in the public Press without any kind of this allegedly confidential, behind closed doors approach which goes on in relation to many aspects of employment recruitment in this country, with the type of skulduggery that goes on in respect of interviews and in respect of placings.

I can appreciate that many workers looking for jobs do not necessarily want to disclose to their current employers that they are on the market for new jobs, and in that sense applications for employment must be confidential, but employers should not have it both ways in terms of taking on employees. Some of the advertisements are socially undesirable, socially discriminatory and socially a disgrace to an allegedly Christian community. Employment agencies and employers should be prohibited from advertising employment which discriminates on sectarian grounds, sex grounds, marriage prohibition grounds and on differentiation of wage rates. We see many advertisements in daily and provincial newspapers which indicate that married women need not apply. There is no provision in this Bill whereby that kind of practice is prohibited, that no employment agency should be permitted to advertise a job, certainly in its own agency, which would in effect say that married women are not wanted in the particular employment.

Many agencies, by virtue of employer practice and social customs in this country in relation to employment, indicate of course that differentiated sex wage rates will apply. This practice should be outlawed under the worker employment agency. We have practices also where grossly misleading advertisements have been placed by some agencies—for example, for employment in South Africa. We have seen advertisements placed by some agencies, some of them with offices in Dublin in the neighbourhood of Grafton Street, where employment opportunities of the most rosy hue and of the most socially desirable character were placed. Irish people were recruited by such agencies to go to South Africa and take up employment there. It could be a country in which they would be going into employment as white persons, a country discriminating against the coloured population. These were, in essence, apartheid advertisements accepted by newspapers here. They were not denounced as they should have been denounced by a Government professing to be a Christian Government, a Government which did not allow anti-racialist manifestations. That kind of advertising should be prohibited.

I am glad that this Bill will come to grips effectively with the abuse and exploitation of Irish men and women by fellow Irish men and women. We do a good deal of breast-beating about the practices of foreigners but some Irish employment agents have shown a scant regard for the welfare of their fellow men and women when recruiting these for employment in Scotland and elsewhere. This Bill will go a substantial way towards eliminating this kind of abuse. It is the responsibility of the Government to legislate; and when "Backbencher" castigates politicians he should remember that it is not the Opposition who should be castigated but the Government. Legislation is the responsibility of the Government and had this legislation been introduced even 12 months ago the appalling abuse of Irish workers in Scotland would not have occurred.

I share Deputy Burke's views about employment on the Continent. A great number of young girls are recruited for employment as au pairs. This is an area of employment which should be examined by the Government and steps should be taken to prevent abuses. These young girls work in continental homes in appalling conditions. Their aim is to become proficient in a foreign language. In the process they are exploited and some people collect fat fees for making the arrangements. These practices should be investigated by the Minister and steps should be taken to ensure that abuses do not occur.

My colleague in the Seanad, Senator Owens, referred to the notification of application for a licence. Notice need be published in only one daily newspaper. An intending agency need publish just one notice in The Cork Examiner and comparatively few may know that the notice has been published. The Cork Examiner is not exactly a national newspaper, though I think it could easily be one. It could be The Guardian of this country; the standard in The Guardian is not that high. Specifying just one daily newspaper could lead to subterfuge and the Minister might have a look at this provision again and specify at least two national newspapers. That would mean that intending agencies could not get away with it.

The National Manpower Service is inadequate. Private enterprise employment agencies developed because successive Governments failed to establish a proper employment service, a service which could be of great help to workers in particular. Had such an agency developed in the proper time it could have dealt with inquiries relating to domestic employment. There is unfortunately a certain snob value about some employment agencies. I hope that the work of replacement officers and civil servants in the employment offices will increase to such a degree that it will not be necessary to rely exclusively on private enterprise employment agencies to do national work.

The Minister is quite right in not having a double-barrelled register of such agencies giving a special exemption, as was sought, for a consultancy firm. This would not have been in the national interest. This is a genuine piece of legislation and as such I do not think that consultancy firms engaged in recruitment of high level staff —I like that phrase—should be treated differently from agencies involved in placing other workers—presumably low level staff, but we shall let that pass. The Minister said in the Seanad that one matter with which many of the agencies were concerned was insisting that employers publish their names in advertisements seeking workers. He went on to say, at column 1056, Volume 69 of the Official Report:

They find objections to that. They say that many firms would not wish it to be known that they are looking for particular staff. They prefer it to be kept secret. That is why they use agencies. They will not be in favour of the rates of fees being displayed because in many cases it is the employer who pays the fee. They do not always like the job-seeker to see the potential bosses' fees because they might judge what they are worth from seeing what he is prepared to pay.

That is an extraordinary statement. Certainly, many workers, if they were aware of what their employers have to pay some employment agencies, would demand a substantial increase in wages immediately. If some typists doing temporary relief work only knew what their employer is paying the employment agency they would have a picket outside his office. The Minister said that the reaction of the employment agencies is "they do not always like the job-seeker to see the potential bosses' fees because they might judge what they are worth from seeing what he is prepared to pay". I hope we find out rapidly the scale of fees of such agencies.

I have received representations from the organisation which represents about half, or at least 40 per cent, of the agencies, the Irish Federation of Employment Agents, in connection with this legislation and I understand the difficulties facing them. The points they made to the Minister have been dealt with by him at length both at his meetings with them and in the Seanad discussion and I have no doubt that the fears they expressed, particularly about confidentiality of the firm's relations with employees, are not well founded. I do not think the Department of Labour are so well equipped that they could have inspectors careering around inspecting the files of every individual looking for a job in each employment agency. I think their fears, while understandable, are not as well founded as they might think. Therefore, I think the legislation is particularly welcome. I would stress that the majority of employment agencies are reputable and provide a service but the public interest and the rights of Irish men and women seeking employment transcend the role of any agency. This legislation is most welcome. I do not want to keep the Minister from that very important meeting at 11.30. He shall have much on his mind in the next 15 minutes in that regard.

Mr. Moore

We can look after that all right.

Mr. Desmond

I think we all know how Deputy Moore will vote but I have more sympathy for the Minister who is in the hotter seat. Rather than delay him from that meeting I welcome this provision and thank him for its introduction.

Mr. Moore

Very briefly I want to welcome the Bill and compliment the Minister on the speed with which he acted in preparing it after there had been alleged abuse in the city. I want to say of the existing agencies that when one case of gross abuse came to light there was only one agency in my view which was suspect; the others seem to be doing their job quite well. Because of our history it is women who are mostly affected by this Bill. We must try to protect them in their employment abroad. The Minister has placed the emphasis on this and has refused to exclude the more exclusive or higher staff appointments. That was why the old fashioned legislation we had on this matter fell asunder.

If you go back to the Public Health Act of 1980, or thereabouts, you find it dealt only with domestic servants. Anything else was outside its scope. The local authorities had to provide certain services so that girl applicants could wash their hands and so on, but that is as far as we went. After that they could go where they liked and to whatever job they liked. The Minister deserves credit for up-dating the legislation. Is he consider going further I suggest he might think on these lines. Because of our history we have two or three women's agencies which try to help emigrant girls but could we have a sort of joint industrial council for this type of business in which you would have a Government nominee, a representative of the agencies and of the voluntary societies to see what further changes are needed in the legislation and also to keep a close watch on any possible abuses, particularly in regard to women, by any agency?

I admit that the Minister cannot legislate for people abroad so that the whole emphasis must be on recruitment and the advice given to people going abroad by efficient management in these agencies. We must start at the root as the Minister has done, and ensure that recruitment will be above board and efficient, and that the agencies will be able to place people in good employment. Deputy Burke mentioned the au pair arrangement which, I suppose, could be examined. A small point that may not be in the Bill; as sport becomes more professional we find that young boys are being recruited here. At the moment the better type of English football clubs will not accept a boy unless he has completed his intermediate certificate, not that the boy needs the certificate to play football but their view is that if he does not make the grade in cross-Channel football he can come back and will have time to become an apprentice, or something like that. The Minister cannot guard against every possibility but our feeling is that any boy recruited for any form of sport abroad should at least have his intermediate certificate. If he does not make the grade he can then return here and start again. I know that many English and Scottish clubs, in fact, will send a boy on to university but these are the boys who make the grade at football, not the boys who do not make the grade and are sent back after a year or two.

I congratulate the Minister on the introduction of this legislation and I hope that on Committee Stage if there are any shortcomings in the Bill we will remedy them.

Minister for Labour (Mr. J. Brennan)

I am pleased with the reception the Bill has got. As it had such a good screening in the Seanad, it was to be expected that it would have a short run here on Second Stage because if there is any merit at all in initiating legislation in the Seanad it must be reflected in its being given a short run in the Dáil. This is one of the Bills that was initiated in the Seanad and discussed there fully on all Stages. Some of the items questioned here are matters that were questioned in the Seanad also.

Au pair is one thing that has agitated the minds of some people when they think of any control being exercised over recruitment of employment. In preparing the Bill this was something to which I and the officials of my Department gave considerable consideration. We did not have any difficulty in deciding in the end that it was another day's work. The provisions of this Bill, which controls employment agencies, would not provide the type of machinery that would be required to effectively deal with the control of au pair arrangements. Au pair, as the House is aware, is a type of cultural arrangement under which people come to learn the language and culture or go to learn the language and culture of another country. It may be and no doubt is sometimes abused for the purpose of getting cheap domestic labour. Having said that, one must agree that on the whole it is worked very genuinely in 99 per cent of cases. However, the fact that there might be any abuses would justify some control being exercised. Foreigners who come in under au pair arrangements are different from any other type of employee in some ways, particularly in that they are not compelled to apply for permits as aliens and they are not subject to the regulations regarding social welfare weekly contributions. In any event, this is as much the concern of the Minister for Education and the Minister for Justice as it is the concern of the Minister for Labour and to properly supervise the different complaints that one would get would require some staff that would not be available under the provisions of this Bill anyhow. Furthermore, recruitment of au pair people is very often done on a personal or family basis, maybe through religious Orders or through schools, and it would be extending the scope of this Bill to an extent where the actual provisions of the Bill regarding employment agencies would become immersed in a volume of other provisions or completely submerged so that the real purpose of this Bill as a control of employment agencies Bill could be lost.

This Bill aims at controlling employment agencies. For that reason the ratification of Part II of the ILO Convention 96 does not arise. It would allow us to ratify Part III. Part II calls for the abolition of employment agencies, Part III calls for the control of employment agencies. It would allow us to ratify Part III. That is the only part we would be concerned with.

We do recognise, in bringing in this legislation, as other speakers have admitted, that we have employment agencies doing an excellent job, very well organised and acting in the best interests of their clients. I should not like anything in the legislation to in any way jeopardise or impede the work which these agencies are doing nor would I like anyone to think that we are trying to put any undue obstacle in their way. We are taking in the Bill powers to ensure that there are no abuses and these powers will eliminate abuses to the extent that some agents might find it difficult to operate at all. It will, as far as it is possible to do so, eliminate abuses such as those we had in relation to the potato pickers in Scotland but it will only be effective, as I already said, in so far as it will control recruitment and advertisements here. It does not cover anything that happens outside the jurisdiction, and a considerable amount of recruitment in that respect does go on among the Irish abroad, the Irish who may be working in Coventry, London or other parts of England. There is recruitment there for potato picking and it is difficult through this Bill to deal with that. It is a matter for Foreign Affairs and I know that the Minister has recently taken very definite steps, particularly in considering the appointment of a representative to Scotland, to ensure that this will be eliminated as far as possible.

The provisions of this Bill then are such as to ensure I would hope that ultimately we will have none but genuine agents doing a good job so that people who seek advice or use these agencies for the purpose of seeking employment will know that they are being dealt with properly and that they are dealing with legitimate organisations.

I do not think there is any major point at this stage to be dealt with. Matters will come up on Committee Stage. Voluntary agencies are not intended to be affected by the Bill. Agencies which operate on an advisory basis or agencies which give a service such as religious communities will be exempted. They may sometimes charge a small fee to cover expenses but could not be regarded as being in the same category as commercially organised, profit-making employment agencies.

The Bill enables regulations to be made governing many things and these will in the usual way be laid before both Houses of the Oireachtas which provide the necessary safeguards and there is also the provision for appeal to the High Court. The legislation will not impinge in any way on the liberties of persons or unduly interfere with the business of legitimate concerns. One has to have recourse to these things in introducing legislation of this kind. I do not think the fears expressed in the Seanad with regard to inspections, the undue harassing of agencies and the prying into their records, were genuinely held by the people who raised them because there would be no purpose in abusing any of the privileges or powers given to persons acting as inspectors under the Bill to carry out their work in any but the necessary manner. In almost every case it would be a general type of inspection. The inspector would be satisfied by knowing that the agency was working in accordance with the requirements of the Bill. Only where it was felt that a certain organisation was not conforming to the requirements of the Bill would there be any kind of onerous inspection or interference with the records of an agency. I do not think the agents' representative who came to see me about the legislation entertained any fear or doubts in that respect. I should, however, like to repeat the assurance I gave in the Seanad that any powers taken by the Minister or those acting on his behalf will only be used in essential cases. They will not be used to interfere unduly with the private working of a legitimate business concern such as a properly established agency will be.

Once the Bill is in operation for some time it will probably, like every other piece of new legislation, show some defects or shortcomings and there is no reason why changes may not be brought about at that stage. The power to make regulations will cover to a great extent many of the unforeseen difficulties and requirements which may be exposed as a result of the working of the legislation.

I do not think it is necessary to say anything further at this stage. We covered the Bill fairly exhaustively in the Seanad and the House will have an opportunity of looking at all sections on Committee Stage although they have already been closely scrutinised in the Seanad but that is not to say that the House will not have an opportunity of doing that again.

The Bill, which has been welcomed by all sides of the House, will also be welcomed by those people who are involved in the conducting of reputable agencies, legitimately established and already doing a good job. I want to thank Deputies who have commended the Bill and welcomed the Second Stage.

Question put and agreed to.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Next Stage?

Mr. J. Brennan

A couple of weeks anyhow.

Mr. Desmond

Does the Minister need that time? We are prepared to concede the Committee Stage today unless the Minister has something in mind.

Mr. J. Brennan

No, we do not have any serious amendments in mind because the Bill has had a very thorough screening in the Seanad. I do not think we will really change one clause in the Bill, and although I do not wish to appear to be rushing it, I should be glad to take the Committee and subsequent Stages today.