Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 25 Nov 1971

Vol. 257 No. 3

Committee on Finance. - Vote 42: Posts and Telegraphs (Resumed)

Debate resumed on the following motion:

That a sum not exceeding £36,732,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1972, for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs and of certain other services administered by that Office, and for payment of a grant-in-aid.

—(Minister for Posts and Telegraphs.)

Mr. M. O'Leary

Before I reported progress I had been making the point that Deputies should resist the temptation to use the occasion of this Estimate simply as a vehicle to carry their prejudices about particular programmes on Telefís Éireann; that this would be an abuse of this occasion; that we should all attempt to debate broad policy items in the Estimate and consider, in relation to the television station, how it fulfils its functions and whether it is best performing those functions.

I made the point last night that our television station has always lived in a climate of pressure from Government quarters and that, in its lifetime, it has known only one party in Government and has become accustomed to that kind of surveillance on its activities as a television station. In a country where there is only one television station, set up by Act of Parliament, there would always be a tension between the television station and the Government. There probably is a greater degree of tension in the relations between that station and the Government presently in power. That Government set up the station and, over the years, at one time or another, has considered Montrose as absolutely the property of the Government, as simply another semi-State agency, requiring no different treatment from that meted out to any other State agency.

If we are to ensure conditions of free expression, to ensure that people get a television service which gives them the news and the information behind the news, that provides adult television programmes, and that is able to provide a means of livelihood for its employees who will be unafraid—and in Telefís Éireann at the moment there are a number of people who are very frightened indeed—and if we are to ensure that we would get a station which allows people to produce programmes which are honest in their production and in the intentions, we need healthy competition; we need to create a second television station.

I am suggesting that Telefís Éireann as at present constituted—and this problem is referred to in the Minister's speech—is an uneasy compromise between commercial considerations and what are referred to as "considerations of public policy". When we demand of the one television station programmes of high quality, programmes which do not depend for their production on purely commercial considerations, and at the same time ask the station to pay its way, we are asking the impossible. It would seem to me that we should separate these two functions. Let us have a purely commercial television station. Let it be financed by, say, the newspapers. The newspapers have been complaining of the supremacy of television in recent years in communications and so on. We should allow a frankly commercial television station to come into existence and, from the revenue of that station, subsidise a second station that need not totally depend on commercial considerations, which would not necessarily be a highbrow station but which would be able, at least, to consider the production of more quality programmes on public affairs, drama, and all the matters that interest various people.

The commercial station such as I have referred to, in line with commercial stations in Britain and elsewhere, could have a healthy public affairs section. The competition between the two stations would ensure that the needless Government interference which has proceeded in the case of Telefís Éireann would occur less frequently. The Minister in his introductory statement referred to the directive to RTE under section 31 in the following terms:

I issued a written direction to the Authority on 1st October, 1971, "to refrain from broadcasting any matter of the following class i.e. any matter that could be calculated to promote the aims or activities of any organisation which engages in, promotes, encourages or advocates the attaining of any particular objective by violent means.

The Minister mentioned that this was the first time the directive was ever given in that form. This is true. Over the years the customary manner in which Ministerial directives were given has been by phone, suggesting that such and such an item should not be on a news programme. We recall the instances over the years. The advantage of giving one's direction by phone is that the patient shows no sign of the punishment administered. It is a kind of third degree which leaves no trace. The Minister's directive at least has the advantage over these midnight phone calls, which had been the method adopted by previous Ministers for giving directives to Telefís Éireann —that it was given openly. If censorship is to be invoked I am in favour of the public knowing the date, the hour and the minute when that censorship was invoked.

That does not mean that I defend or am in favour of that particular directive by the Minister. If we have legislation which lays down a certain approach to illegal organisations, the burden is on the public authorities to utilise that legislation. I cannot see why Telefís Éireann must be used as a kind of shabby second guarantor to carry out public policy which the Government themselves, evidently, shy away from. If the Government party have an ambivalent attitude, and I think they have an ambivalent attitude, to illegal organisations I do not see why they should visit that ambivalence on Telefís Éireann and ask people whose duty it is to carry news and to explain the news, the journalists in Telefís Éireann, to carry out this kind of ambiguous directive:

"to refrain from broadcasting any matter of the following class i.e. any matter that could be calculated to promote the aims or activities of any organisation which engages in, promotes, encourages or advocates the attaining of any particular objective by violence."

This is a very broad and vague directive. It is calculated further to discourage people in Telefís Éireann from reporting news honestly. Are we going to stand over a state of affairs where, for example, the news bulletins of Telefís Éireann carry violent activities in Belfast at weekends, and so on, and where the feature programmers are given instructions that they must not explain the origin of these actions, in other words, our news bulletins carry the shooting but the feature programmes can carry no explanations, and, at the same time, our newspapers report the news as it happens. If this Government have an argument with illegal organisations then it must have the moral courage to pursue that argument both here in Parliament and on political platforms around the country, and it must not seek to evade that duty by passing on a vaguely worded directive to RTE in an attempt to corral journalists into curtailing their professional activities in reporting the news honestly and impartially. As I see it, that is the job of Telefís Éireann and the primary duty of any journalist.

It is their primary duty to report what is actually happening and comment on the basic facts that explain this event or that event. The Government, of course, have been attempting to frighten independent journalists in RTE over a number of years. The great monument erected to that particular policy was, in fact, the "7 Days" Tribunal. They have been attempting to inculcate into RTE what I would describe as a school of auto-censorship, in which the journalist himself censors himself; in which the station, because of so many mysterious directives coming from so many Government Ministers, would appear to exist solely for the benefit of the one party in government over the past ten years, becoming simply a place in which there would be harmless programmes from the point of view of the Government, whether home-produced or otherwise, and, if not home-produced, canned film programmes from America and Britain.

The Government have been attempting to make of Telefís Éireann a harmless "bread and circuses" kind of show and drive it away from commentary on public affairs, frightening them with vague directives so that no programmes with an honest content could, in fact, be produced, leaving us, the viewers, finally with a station which carries no honest commentary on any matter of any interest whatever. Well and truly might people object that, for their licence fees, they are not getting value and, so long as this heavy-handed approach by the Government persists in relation to Telefís Éireann, they will not get that value. I suggest one way in which we could break the vicious circle would be by the establishment of a second television station. I would hope that, if we get to that stage, we could examine the authority of RTE and ensure that, in nominations to that authority, there would be a 50-50 split of representation. Is there not greater scope for nomination of representatives to RTE?

We hear the complaint that RTE has no direct contact with vocational organisations. It is easy to see how this may come about. We are not alone in having a Government which is anxious to curtail the freedom of expression and the content of expression: Italy and France are good examples of how Governments may manage their television stations to ensure they do not give honest expression to news and so on. Let us admit it: one good reason why Telefís Éireann has been able to operate a tradition of free commentary has been because of the proximity of this island to that of Britain. Unfortunately, at the moment, the BBC is under grave strain in reporting Northern Ireland events and Tory Ministers are suggesting, in the interests of patriotism, to British journalists that they must report the British Army in a certain light. As I say, we are not alone in this drive towards greater control of the news. It is not an exaggeration to say there have been signs over the last year or two; there was the recent attempt, the Forcible Entry Bill, to curtail freedom of expression. We may see in the tendency in Britain now a similar approach to contain freedom of expression by journalists on BBC programmes.

I think RTE has attempted honestly to report events in Northern Ireland. There has been a bias on occasion admittedly, but the Northern Ireland tragedy is one in which we are all caught up emotionally and it is hard to report objectively. I think this recent direction, in which section 31 of the Act was invoked by the Minister, must make RTE's attempt to cover the Northern Ireland situation impartially much more difficult. The two objectives RTE must be permitted to carry out are to report the facts and explain the background to those facts. The big problem will come up soon as to how exactly RTE will report the referendum campaign. Who is to know whether RTE is not to receive further ministerial directives? A Minister has altered custom. He has, in fact, invoked Article 31 and there is no guarantee that, over that campaign, ministerial directives about particular programmes may not again be utilised and producers of programmes told that this or that should not be shown. In the climate of fear in RTE at present this may very well prove to be successful. In the reporting of the referendum campaign RTE will have a very heavy responsibility to carry out in informing the public on the issues involved.

There will always be in any democracy a permanent tension—it is a good thing for democracy that there should be this tension—between the public authorities and RTE. Obviously representatives of the Government do not appreciate that this tension is one of the conditions of democracy, however awkward it may be to relieve. We know the Tánaiste's approach. He wants happy news. The answer to his necessity for happy news is that his own party has probably been the begetter of some of the unhappiest news in this State over the past two years and it has produced programmes of the most gory kind for the reporting of which RTE cannot be blamed; if the Tánaiste wants happy news, he must admit his own party was not, in fact, providing its own measure of happy news.

The Minister mentioned the new radio station to be set up in the Gaeltacht. The establishment of this radio station is praiseworthy, but it is regrettable that the opportunity was not taken, when setting up this regional Gaeltacht station, to appoint people to that authority from, say, organisations like Cearta Sibhialta na Gaeltachta. Cearta Sibhialta na Gaeltachta has done a great deal to increase people's appreciation of their cultural identity. It has done many worthwhile things in the Gaeltacht in Connemara. It is regrettable that no representative of that organisation or other organisations who have called for a Gaeltacht radio station over the years has been appointed to the Radio na Gaeltachta Authority. I accept that a public authority which sets up a station such as Radio na Gaeltachta must have some control over the administrative running of that station, but could we not have a more imaginative way of involving local interests in the running of that station? All RTE appointments are in the hands of the Minister. As far as Radio na Gaeltachta is concerned one can almost say all those appointed are members of the Fianna Fáil Party. This is a regrettable method of proceeding.

Minister for Posts and Telegraphs (Mr. G. Collins)

That is completely untrue. I shall refer to it when replying.

Mr. M. O'Leary

I do not claim my information is totally reliable. It was from Gaeltacht sources I learned that members of Radio na Gaeltachta are far from hostile to the Fianna Fáil Party interest.

Mr. G. Collins

The Deputy is changing his mind already.

Mr. M. O'Leary

No, I am not. Let me put it this way: I cannot stand over the statement that they are all fully paid-up members of Fianna Fáil but I have been given this information which may or may not be true, that they are certainly not hostile to the Fianna Fáil Party interests. Let me put it another way: none of them is known for his hostility to the Government party.

Mr. G. Collins

I still would not agree with that.

Mr. M. O'Leary

The Minister knows more about their politics than I do.

Sir Anthony Esmonde

That is an admission that the Minister knows what their politics are before they are appointed.

Mr. M. O'Leary

Possibly. My next point has been raised by several Deputies, but I think serious consideration should be given to the televising of Dáil proceedings. I do not know whether we would gain any TAM ratings; it would depend on the estimate. If Fianna Fáil could arrange for a party meeting to take place at 1 o'clock on a Wednesday we might have an entertaining afternoon's viewing if the Dáil was being televised that particular afternoon. There is a great deal of ignorance and apathy about the working of the Dáil. Whatever party we belong to it is important that the public at large should know what goes on in Parliament. In countries where Parliaments have been televised it has brought home to people what goes on in Parliament. We could introduce it on selected estimates and the public could see what their representatives are or are not doing. They could see what the Government proposes to legislate on and what is proposed by the Opposition. This would be beneficial to them when the time came for the public to take a meaningful part in public affairs. I hope the Minister will see his way to introducing the televising of Dáil debates.

Mr. G. Collins

While I agree with almost everything the Deputy has said on that matter I should like to point out that it is not a matter for my Department. It is a matter for the Committee on Procedure and Privileges.

Mr. M. O'Leary

Does the Minister have any ideas on it?

Mr. G. Collins

I am expressing no personal views. What I am pointing out to the Deputy is that it is a matter for the Committee on Procedure and Privileges.

Mr. M. O'Leary

The matter has been mentioned by other Deputies and I would suggest the desirability of it.

Most people work a five-day week and while I am not thinking of anything as ambitious as a University of the Air at week-ends, I believe RTE should consider televising programmes like the school programmes only in an adult form. We hear a great deal about people finding difficulty in occupying their leisure hours but such programmes would cater for viewers who are not adequately catered for at the moment.

Conditions are still bad in the Sheriff Street sorting office and I hope the Minister will do something to improve them. The Minister is having discussions with the Post Office unions at present. Discussions have been going on for a number of years and promises have been made. I hope these discussions will soon come to fruition. It is ridiculous to see the civil rights of the Post Office employees limited to the extent that they are for no good reason. Whatever British imperial reasons there may have been at the beginning of this century when the country was in a state of continuous war and it was necessary, therefore, to have this particular arm of the civil service outside the sphere of politics, I cannot see any legitimate reason in 1971 for a continuation of the present state of affairs. I hope the Minister will bring to an end speedily the limitation of civil rights which exists in the Post Office at present.

Deputies from southern counties have called for a multi-channel television service so that viewers in those areas can see the BBC. There is a demand for an alternative to RTE. The best way we can meet that demand is by the establishment of a second station. We could use the profits from the second station to finance the public authority station. Public affairs programmes would flourish on the second station amongst the advertising. This would resolve the conflict which is at the heart of RTE between the commercial directions to make it pay and the more vague directions that it should project our cultural heritage. These cultural objectives sit uneasily in the present set-up where it is asked to pay its way as well. A break-up of these functions, the establishment of a first and second station, would better serve the needs of the Irish people.

Mr. Moore

The Estimate for the Department of Posts and Telegraphs is a most comprehensive document. Although the cost of running the Department is quite high, nevertheless it is money well spent in the important field of communications. I should like the Minister to consider changing the name of his Department from Posts and Telegraphs to that of Communications. In the society in which we live there is a great need for true communication between the State and the people.

Having regard to the Northern situation in particular, many of our people in Britain are hungry for news of events in this country but it is impossible to receive a programme from RTE in many parts of Britain. People who have been forced to emigrate must feel totally neglected when they have no option but to tune in to the BBC or other stations in Britain where they will not always get a clear and true picture of the problems of this country, especially regarding the north east part of the country. Therefore, I would urge the Minister to give top priority to the improvement of radio and television services to Britain so that our own people there, and the British people, will not have to depend on the rather jaundiced views of the British media.

This should be our main objective. In the interests of truth and justice and in order to help the suffering people in the North—people of all creeds—we should ensure that they receive a daily bulletin regarding events here. If the British people could tune in to a radio programme that would be objective and would state the facts, they would come to believe we have been telling the truth. In this connection I should like to pay a tribute to the integrity of the RTE journalists and cameramen for their work in many dangerous situations in the northeastern part of our country. The only thing lacking is that the RTE station is not powerful enough to be received in Britain. I would appeal to the Minister to get down to the task of improving the RTE station so that our programmes can be received in all parts of the United Kingdom.

Ten years ago television was introduced in this country and at this stage we might ask: Where have RTE gone wrong? Somewhere along the line they got a misdirection or they sought a wrong goal with the result that there is great cynicism among the people regarding RTE programmes. It must be admitted that RTE are inhibited by a lack of money but among the people generally there is the belief—perhaps wrongly held—that there is a kind of squandermania in RTE.

It is thought they bring people on to programmes at very high fees. One often wonders what is the criteria used with regard to the people who appear on RTE programmes. It may be that there is an element in RTE who want to keep up with the British Joneses. It should be realised that we cannot, and do not wish to, compete with the BBC. They are a much wealthier and more powerful body; they have a job to do for Britain, but RTE must do a job for this country. Even accepting our rather limited resources, RTE could do a better job perhaps in a simpler way.

Frequently in programmes dealing with politics, literature or many other subjects, RTE have, on the show, a controversial or "way out" person. This has happened in many instances and the people on the programme had nothing in common with the Irish public. Frequently they said things that hurt the feelings of the people but those appearing on the programmes were depicted as rather god like people to whom the public should look for guidance. RTE have a duty to ensure that the programmes they transmit are in keeping with the beliefs of the Irish people and, although we are entering an age of expansion, it is important that we preserve our individuality and our culture. The word "culture" has been abused and I do not like to use it, but, in this context, I am speaking about the things in which we believe. It is the job of RTE to hold up a mirror to the national scene, not to distort it.

Some of the "7 Days" programmes have been very good. However, there appears to be a desire by the people who produce the "Late Late Show", for instance, to present to us people who have a reputation of being "way out" with their views. Last year people were introduced who were no credit to their own country, never mind being a credit to RTE. The people who produce and direct programmes on RTE must be told to present programmes that will cater for the people who live in Ireland. Also, we do not wish to become more anglicised than we are already, neither do we wish to become Americanised. RTE should not show too many old-fashioned and out-of-date American films. In fairness to RTE, I understand that the cost of importing a film from America or Britain is trivial. At the same time, we must recognise that damage will be done to the young people if they maintain this artificial approach to the programme.

I do not object to plays by foreign dramatists being shown, but we have one good Dubliner who wrote many plays for the Abbey Theatre which set box office records and not one of his plays has ever been shown on RTE. I will take the liberty of mentioning his name because he is a former Member of this House, John McCann. This is the type of play the people want. They wanted his plays when they were in the Abbey Theatre but I have never seen one of his plays on RTE. I mention that point to show that there are some elements in RTE who prefer this airy-fairy and arty approach. People often wonder what Pearse would think if he were alive today. Pearse did not want us to sing jazz pop songs in Irish. He wanted us to think Irish. We are a separate nation.

This is the only station we have in this part of the country. While it might be desirable to have a second station, that is not possible in the foreseeable future. The RTE Authority will have to do better than they have been doing. I know they have many problems but it is their job to overcome problems. They should give us programmes which the people will appreciate instead of bringing certain people on to television and perhaps ending up with a libel action, as happened last week, because wild statements were made. The record of RTE in this regard is not too good. There have been many threatened actions or actions settled out of court. It is inevitable, I suppose, that any organ of communication will have that type of trouble at times. It is noticeable that the newspapers very seldom get mixed up in that type of problem. The journalists working for the newspapers are very experienced and they know their job and they do it well. We have five papers in this city alone not to mention the papers in Cork and other places. The overall picture of the press is that it has been responsible. It reports the news.

There is a very fair representation on some of the radio programmes on politics, particularly on the Friday Report on the Dáil proceedings. Each week the journalists working on that programme try to present, and succeed in presenting a balanced picture of the three main parties and the Independents. I am sorry that I cannot say the same for RTE. They have made too many gaffes and they have caused too much trouble. The Government are criticised for interfering in the free dissemination of news and views on RTE. I heard an interviewer interviewing a leading member of an illegal organisation and, whether she meant it or not, the picture I got was that she was in full sympathy with this man. She was quite nice to him. I will say that she was a good interviewer. The impression I got was that she was in sympathy with this man and the implication was: "It is just too bad that people do not understand you."

I got myself into trouble some years ago when I criticised a religious programme which attempted to deal with the problem of housing. Not one person on that programme had any special knowledge of housing but they all proceeded to pontificate on what Dublin Corporation should do. Nobody objects to genuine criticism, even if it is mistaken criticism, if the person believes what he is saying. On this programme we had all the old trivia about the bad condition in which the State was, how badly people were housed and how terrible it was that these people should be in power in Dublin Corporation or in the Government.

Telefís Éireann seem to have a tendency to go for the left winger who may have no special technical knowledge. He pontificates on our problems but he represents probably only .01 of the people. He is elevated by RTE into a position of prominence to which he has no right. If they want to have an extreme left winger on television they should also put on an extreme right winger to balance the programme. They should drop both extreme wings and put on representatives of the people—and I do not mean Members of this House only— but representatives of local societies who are trying to do a good job. They should be given a voice on the air as well as the people who preach Marxist policies or Leninist policies which have no place in this State.

I believe in censorship. There must be some form of censorship in every country. I know this is not a popular thing to say and that if I wanted to be "with it" I would condemn censorship but I do not condemn it. I believe that a body of viewers should watch the programmes and make representations to the RTE Authority to raise the standard of the programmes generally. It may be said that we are very hard on them here but this is a very important medium of communications and propaganda. Therefore we should try to ensure that the station portrays the Ireland that exists. I do not mind them showing Ireland, warts and all. The warts are in the minority. Irish society generally is sound, even if it needs some improvement.

I believe that radio is becoming more popular all the time. More money should be spent on radio programmes. The setting up of Radio na Gaeltachta is a step in the right direction. I wish it every success. The Minister has been criticised for his nominees to that body but we must remember that everybody in Ireland has a political opinion. Some of us make our opinions public and others do not. Deep in their hearts all Irish people believe in one of the parties here, or perhaps some party yet to come. There is no point in saying that the Government are trying to muzzle the voice of RTE. The Government have the job of ensuring that the medium for which the people are paying portrays a picture in keeping with our national traditions and beliefs and that we do not have a cheap type of BBC.

Earlier on I mentioned the "7 Days" programmes. The programme on the motor industry the other night was excellent. More people are talking about that programme than I have heard speaking about any programme for many years. The people working on that programme knew their job and did a good job. I cannot say whether all the allegations or the denials were true but I compliment the people who produced the programme and the interviewers and the people who took part in it. They discussed grievances or imaginary grievances in a proper way. At least they did a good job there and if RTE did more of this type of programme people would have more respect for them and would be much more satisfied about the fees they are paying.

In regard to telephone kiosks in this city, which have been the target of vandals, sick-minded people, who have smashed them and torn the equipment out, I am glad to see that a new type of material, perspex or whatever it is, which is almost unbreakable, is being used. The people who smash these kiosks should be made dwell for a moment on the thought that it might be one of their family who needs a doctor or an ambulance at night and that they might go to a kiosk only to find the apparatus torn out for no other reason than a desire to damage public property. The Minister, in cooperation with the Department of Justice, should have a watch put on these kiosks in order to apprehend some of the vandals who smash them and make them pay for their crime.

In regard to accommodation for post office staffs, in recent years some fine new buildings have been erected. If I may become a little parochial in regard to my own area, I would ask the Minister: when will the Ballsbridge sorting office be replaced? It was built in the early part of the century and now deals with a much greater volume of correspondence than in those days. The men working there would appreciate new quarters. I am sure there is plenty of space in the area where the new office could be erected, so that the service from that office would be improved.

I do not want to delay the House too long, and I would conclude by asking the Minister to ensure that the radio service from RTE will be increased in volume so that our emigrants in Britain can get news from this country. If this had been done some years ago we might well have a better-informed public opinion about the happenings here. The media in Britain colour the programmes in their own favour. The news is conveyed that a terrorist has shot a soldier, but the soldier is never a terrorist if he shoots an old woman or someone like that.

I do not want any propaganda sent out from here to the British people, only the truth. When they hear the truth from our station they will come to realise that there are two sides to the story. We might have to spend a few million pounds on the new station, but let us consider the amount of damage which has been done in parts of this country in the last two years and which must run into millions and millions of pounds, and that if there had been in Britain a better-informed opinion both at government level and at the level of the people, a great deal of trouble might have been saved. I am willing to vote for an increase in taxation if the money goes towards providing a good radio station and possibly a television channel which can transmit from Lands End to John o' Groats and get over this message to the people there. RTE should take on this important task, stop aping the BBC and forget some of the silly shows they have been doing.

Sir Anthony Esmonde

The number of Deputies who have spoken in this debate is indicative of the importance of this Estimate. One thing that strikes me is that the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, who should be a fixture, has never been so in the Dáil since I have been a Member here. It is regarded as being a junior post, and I suppose when the next shake-up comes within the ranks of the Fianna Fáil Party, which may be sooner rather than later—one never knows these days —possibly the Minister will be moved on again. That is unfortunate, because this is an important Department and is becoming much more important than it was before.

A good many of us got quite a considerable shock when we heard from the Minister's opening speech that he envisaged increased charges. Postal charges have already been considerably increased in the transfer to the decimal system, and, incidentally, our postal charges are considerably higher than those of other countries, for instance Britain.

The Minister is faced with an increased charge of £3 million, largely due to wages, and the increased wages are largely due to the taxation policy of the Government. Of course, the turnover tax and the wholesale tax, although not the direct responsibility of the Department, account for the inflationary situation that exists in regard to wages. That applies not only to the Department of Posts and Telegraphs but to every Department of State. Furthermore, when the Minister for Finance imposes the value added tax, the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs may be coming back here to tell us he has a couple of million pounds more to find.

Be that as it may, what strikes me very forcibly is that every Minister introducing an Estimate here tells us in his opening statement that due to so-and-so and so-and-so charges have gone up and, therefore, more money is required. I wonder when a Minister will come in here and talk of greater efficiency and of a reduction in costs. No one can consider for a moment that the Department of Posts and Telegraphs is run with the highest degree of efficiency. I do not want to be hypercritical of them, but there are many economies that could be made there. They may be restricted in their working capacity in relation to trade union regulations, and so forth, but the telephone service, to start with, could be much more efficiently and economically run than it is. I know of a recent case in which a telephone extension was required from a house to an office, a distance of about 200 yards. The job took ten days to complete and it required a staff of ten men. I knew that this extension was taking place and, as I was passing along the road I asked them, out of interest, why there were so many men employed. Apparently certain men could only do certain things and other men could only do certain other things. It seems to me the job could have been done in three or four days by two men, whereas it took ten men ten days to do the work. When one group of men finished whatever they were doing they disappeared and there was a delay before the next group appeared. That seems to indicate the rank inefficiency which leads to considerable rises in telephone charges.

If anyone is looking for a telephone in a rural area he has to pay five years rent in advance. I do not expect that this regulation applies in Dublin but it applies in all the country areas. The Department of Posts and Telegraphs are living in a state of credit for five years. This situation has existed for at least five years. I see no reason for it. A telephone service is a national service. There is no reason why it should not be equated all over the country or why country people should not get the same service as those in the cities.

The telephone service is in a state of chaos. That may not be the fault of the Minister. This situation has been developing gradually. There is more demand for a telephone service now than there was a few years ago. The trunk lines are overloaded. There is evidence of that in the fact that while talking to anyone on a phone in the country the sound comes and then fades all the time. That is a sign of overloading. I am fortunate enough to have a dial telephone but I find that I often have to dial for a considerable period before getting an answer. That is due to overloading also. We must pose the question "Is the service being administered in the most economic and practical way possible?". The answer to that is "No". An autonomous body should be set up as a commercial concern to run the telephone system. It has been proved over the years that it is not possible to provide an efficient service under the aegis of the State. I maintain that anything run by the State is run on the basis that so much money must be spent in one place to save money elsewhere that the costs escalate resulting in total inefficiency in the service concerned.

The Minister must have a continuous headache from hearing about the faulty telephone service. I spoke to a former Minister for Posts and Telegraphs and explained to him that I had difficulty in getting calls. This man told me that he had exactly the same difficulty himself. He said that he had tried to telephone Dublin from Kildare and could not get on. He had urgent business in his Department and was left waiting a half an hour for a connection. I asked him had he told the people on the exchange who he was. He said that he had told them he was the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, but that it did not make any difference one way or the other. If a Minister for Posts and Telegraphs could not get through, how can an ordinary person expect to get an up-to-date service? If one phones to Scotland the position is different.

I had occasion to telephone Scotland on important business recently. I got through almost immediately. I got through quicker than I would get through to a local town or to a constituent of mine. I had a clear, uninterrupted conversation. When I am talking to some of my constituents there is difficulty in understanding what is said sometimes because of faulty diction. Their voices seem to sink to a whisper every now and then, and it is almost impossible to hear what is being said. The overloading of the trunk lines is responsible for that.

The present telephone situation is chaotic. I am not indicting the Minister directly for that. He inherited this system from his predecessors. We should set up an autonomous body and make them responsible for the service. We should let them issue share capital and run the service as a business concern. Our telephone system would then be equated with that of other countries. Business people come over here and find the telephone service unsatisfactory. This damages our tourism also. When business tycoons visit our country they like to be able to keep in touch with their business concerns in Germany, Britain or elsewhere. They are dissatisfied with our chaotic telephone situation. The Minister should divest himself of responsibility for the telephone service. There should be a well organised body of business people with business acumen who know how to manage such a service. The Minister will have the wholehearted support of the country if he sets up such a body.

Many Deputies have spoken about television. The function of television is to give factual news. Television is, perhaps, the most important communication medium in the world today. This has been acknowledged by a most important person, the Pope, who speaks for a good many people in the world still in spite of changing circumstances here and there. The job of television is to give a presentation of the facts and present news items showing what is actually happening. It is not the commentator's job to evaluate situations. Experts on particular subjects may be called in to make statements. There may be symposia or sessions on television. There are certain areas in which I feel that television has gone entirely wrong. I said this before. The people in television seem to be terribly keen on violence in any shape or form. Recently in County Wexford we were presented with a bus by a philanthropic organisation. This bus was intended for use in helping mentally-handicapped children. I do not say that television crews should have come down and highlighted the presentation of that bus. If there had been a whisper that somebody was going to blow up the bus, the television crews would have been there with their cameras and reporters. Perhaps this comment also applies to newspapers.

Violence seems to be news today. Escalations of trouble which take place anywhere, the breaking of the law, the burning of buses, et cetera are events of great interest to the television media. Surely we are not so bankrupt of news which would interest the public that violence must be highlighted at all times? Other programmes are produced also but violence is concentrated on. The picture presented is in no way advantageous to the Irish national image. There are many people across the Channel who would like to think that we are gunmen and savages. They have had every opportunity over the past 12 to 15 months for imagining that we are a nation of violence and lawbreaking.

There is another point about which Telefís Éireann must be indicted. There is a gentleman, Reverend Ian Paisley, who probably has been responsible for much of what is happening by his rank bigotry, his one-sided point of view and his mealymouthed ramblings. This gentleman is probably responsible for much of what is happening in Northern Ireland and for the polarisation of the communities there. He never got any publicity from anybody but Telefís Éireann. About a year ago we had to listen to him every time we switched on our television sets. He represents nobody in the 20th century except a few bigots in the North. He does not even represent the decent people in Northern Ireland. RTE used to show him nearly every day. Thank goodness we have not seen or heard anything of the Reverend Ian Paisley for a long time. A lot of people feel if he was stowed away somewhere there would be a greater opportunity for peace in that area.

There has been considerable apprehension recently in the United Kingdom over violence on television and some organisation, whose name escapes me, has been active regarding this showing of violence. There is a film called "The Virginian", which is shown on the BBC and has been shown extensively here. I understand quite a lot of people, such as those who get very little fresh air in their lives, who live in built-up areas, get quite a lot of enjoyment out of watching this. Those people imagine themselves in the wild west but against that you have got to remember it is a scene of violence. We have also to remember that we live in an age in which people have largely given up reading and they get their knowledge and entertainment from what they can see.

Every time you switch on "The Virginian" at least half a dozen people who are quick on the draw are shot. It is very romantic because the hero gets the bad fellow down at the last moment and shoots maybe half a dozen people. We have got to consider the effect of this violence on immature youth. The old boys and the old girls may sit back and enjoy "The Virginian" but it has a bad effect on youth. In Britain they have recognised this fact, and an organisation has been created there to try and stop the showing of violence on television. The productions on the BBC show more violence than those shown on Telefís Éireann. I happen to be one of the people, due to the fact that I live near to Wales, who can get good BBC reception and when I see some of their films I notice there is a great deal of violence shown on them. This new organisation in Britain hope to do something about the showing of violence on television in that country.

Deputy Moore said it is cheaper to get British films than it is to get American films. I prefer British films to American films although there are many people who prefer the American films. I do not like the American twang and the eternal talk about dollars. I believe that Telefís Éireann could probably get British films produced in the 1930s, the 1940s and the early 1950s which were quite well produced, at a much cheaper rate than some of the other films they buy. There is a tendency on Telefís Éireann to produce the old golden silent films. I cannot see any better entertainment than ten minutes of a Charlie Chaplin film but unfortunately a lot of those films have got worn and tattered. Telefís Éireann could show more of those. Our young people watch them and they are far better for them than watching violence on some of the other films. A lot of the violence and a lot of the robbery going on among youth today is instigated by the glamour attitude that is given to the crack gunman on television.

Telefís Éireann do a lot of good and I do not want to criticise them unduly. However, I want to refer to factual programmes and experts. The Government have been greatly criticised for saying something on the phone to Telefís Éireann in relation to Northern Ireland. I believe Telefís Éireann should try and instruct the public more in world affairs. We are told by the Minister for External Affairs that we are on the verge of our accession to the EEC. Therefore, there should be far more discussions and symposia or statements on Telefís Éireann in relation to the EEC and what it means. At least 90 per cent of the people in rural Ireland, and I do not suppose that Dubliners have any more intelligence than them, do not know what the EEC means to us. Surely, a burning question like that should be continually discussed on Telefís Éireann.

This country has more charitable inclinations and has subscribed more money to charity per head of the population than any other nation in the world. There is at the moment one of the greatest disasters that has ever been seen taking place in the India/Pakistan confrontation but we have seen very little about that on Telefís Éireann. Large sums of money have been paid by people for the distressed people in that area. I work behind the scenes in this matter and I know that money has been paid by old-age pensioners and other people with very little money so there is a wide interest in this confrontation. It is tied up with our missionary effort, which is one of the glories of this country still, despite the materialistic age we live in.

We have had very little comment on that important subject on Telefís Éireann. It is such an important subject because the third and fourth most populous countries in the world are being instigated to war at the moment by the communistic factions, one on one side and the other on the other. They are encouraging the people in those countries to fight to the last man. Those facts should be shown on Telefís Éireann.

When you switch on the news on Telefís Éireann it is almost entirely taken up with events in the North of Ireland. I agree that every instance of violence and injustice should be made known to us but there is no reason why we should have five minutes about a bus which was burned by a gang of youths in Falls Road. At least we are entitled to hear about things going on in other parts of the world. Telefís Éireann should realise that the Six-County problem is not the only thing of importance to the people. We are entitled to news from other parts of the world. I have timed Telefís Éireann news and I found one night out of a news coverage of 20 minutes, 15 minutes were devoted to Northern Ireland and there was only a synopsis of things which happened in other parts of the world. Our television service is there for the benefit of everybody and people should see and hear what is happening all over the world. I hope that Telefís Éireann will broaden their news outlook.

Minister for Posts and Telegraphs (Mr. G. Collins)

This has been a very interesting debate. First of all, I should like to thank the Deputies for the very kind remarks they made about me and for their expressions of appreciation for the improvements they found in the various services. I would also like to express my appreciation of the compliments paid to the staff of my Department. It was a very pleasant experience for me to listen to praise of their courtesy and attention to duties. I can assure Deputies that the praise which they gave in areas where they felt it was due will not lead to any feeling of complacency because I believe quite strongly that there is no room whatsoever for complacency.

Almost all the criticism offered was constructive and helpful and it is only natural to expect that there should be some criticism of a department which employs over 20,000 people throughout the country and which daily handles millions of transactions with the public. I fully realise how important it is that post office services should be provided efficiently and at the lowest cost and I wish to assure the House that the Department will, if anything, increase its efforts to achieve greater efficiency because this is particularly necessary in an inflationary situation such as we have at present with costs continually rising.

Deputies will recall that earlier this year we had a debate lasting more than 22 hours and extending over six Dáil meetings between 25th February and 23rd March on the affairs of my Department and RTE. My reply was correspondingly lengthy and ranged fully over all the questions raised in that marathon debate. I was happy to hear several Deputies in the present debate refer back to the previous one and express the view that, as it took place such a short time ago, it is scarcely necessary now to go into all these matters fully again. I share this view and, therefore, I propose in my reply to deal mainly with what seem to be the most important points made. If I fail to deal with any point raised by a Deputy and to which he attaches importance, I should be glad if he would inform me afterwards and I shall reply fully in writing.

Numerous references have been made to particular RTE programmes or series of programmes. While I retain responsibility for general oversight of the manner in which the Authority carries out its statutory functions, the Oireachtas have given RTE independence in the day-to-day management of broadcasting services. Therefore, it would not be appropriate for me to comment on various views expressed in regard to programmes. I am glad to note that the concensus of opinion has been that the Authority's programmes are giving general satisfaction. This debate will be very carefully studied by RTE and all the suggestions made by Deputies will receive consideration.

I want to say very emphatically that I fully support Deputy Mrs. Hogan O'Higgins in her observation that members of the House are entitled to criticise programmes on the occasion of a review like this without being exposed to resentment by broadcasters. In particular, I would regard it as most reprehensible that RTE itself should be used to give expression to any such resentment. I am very sorry indeed that the Deputy's reasonable and considered contribution to the debate on the Estimate for my Department last year in respect of RTE programmes should have led to her being embarrassed by nuisance telephone calls and otherwise.

In a lighter vein I refer to a suggestion of Deputy Tully who expressed surprise that nobody had invented a three inch television aerial which would serve the purpose of high aerials which disfigure skylines not only in Ireland but in cities throughout the world. The House will appreciate that this is outside my field of activity but I suggest that Deputy Tully should apply his own inventive genius to this problem and if he succeeds I imagine he should become the wealthiest man in the world.

On the question of unsatisfactory reception of RTE television in some places as raised by Deputy Crowley and others, the television coverage is primarily a matter for the Authority. I am advised that at present coverage extends to about 98 per cent of the State and the remaining 2 per cent relates to about 900 communities with about 20 households or more. It would be extremely difficult, if not impossible, to give satisfactory coverage in all areas. Priority is being given to improving service in the more densely populated areas and three transposers were brought into service in the Mayo-Galway area of poor reception in the past two years. The next phase in the Authority's programme is to provide transposers in West Cork and Longford. Progress, naturally, will depend on the Authority's capital position. In addition, work is being done to improve existing installations in order to get better reception.

It was suggested by Deputy Cooney that the VHF service is an extravagance. I am advised that this service was provided because it was considered to be the best and cheapest solution to the problem of providing some broadcasting coverage in areas where medium wave coverage was unsatisfactory.

Mr. Kavanagh

Hear, hear.

Mr. G. Collins

Furthermore, it has the advantage of offering greatly improved quality of reception in areas where interference from foreign stations and equipment of various kinds degrades the quality of medium wave receptions. Statistics of the number of VHF sets are not maintained in my Department but I am informed that an RTE survey showed that in November, 1970 the number of such sets was 112,000. It is reasonable to expect that the number has grown substantially since then. Deputy Desmond spoke of the desirability of having local radio stations of a public service nature under the supervision of RTE. This suggestion is one of a number arising out of developments elsewhere which will probably be considered by the Broadcasting Review Committee. There were several references to RTE Relays and participation of RTE in wired television. RTE's efforts in this field are aimed at offsetting the advertising loss bound to result from the inevitable development of wired television. The Government's decision in March, 1970, to relax restrictions on wired television specifically permitted entry of RTE into this field, mainly with the object of protecting its revenue. Deputy Crowley, Deputy Desmond, and others referred to the Oireachtas broadcasting studio and said that the present facilities are inadequate. This is a matter primarily for RTE and the authorities concerned with accommodation. I am sure they will give the criticism appropriate consideration.

Deputy Crowley, Deputy Barry, Deputy Tully, Deputy Cooney and others, mentioned the possibility of a second television channel or multi-channel viewing throughout the State. Two major matters of policy were raised in this regard. One was the request for a second RTE television channel to provide a choice for viewers. The second was a request by several Deputies to make British television programmes available throughout the State. In view of the fact that comparatively recently I appointed a Broadcasting Review Committee on which a number of distinguished ladies and gentlemen kindly agreed to serve in order to advise me on the future development of broadcasting, I am reluctant to express views on proposed major departures in policy which may well be under review by this committee.

However, I can say that while there appear to be few if any objections in principle to a second RTE television channel, it would cost millions of pounds and this would seem to rule out its early introduction. As regards bringing the British television services to the whole country, obviously many considerations arise and at this stage my only comment is that the cost alone, running to millions of pounds, would be such as to rule out the adoption of this proposal at present.

Deputy Dowling in the course of his very eloquent address referred to a great number of points of much interest. Virtually all these points dealt with the day-to-day working of RTE. Since the enactment of the Broadcasting Authority Act, 1960, the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs does not intervene in the day-to-day activities of RTE, but I am quite sure the members of the authority will read Deputy Dowling's remarks with interest and attention——

Mr. Kavanagh

And amusement.

Mr. G. Collins

——and will take any action necessary arising from them. Deputy Fitzpatrick from Dublin asked why is there a limit of 500 in the number of outlets permitted in communal aerial systems. The limit is intended to keep multi-channel TV systems on a local basis. If they were permitted on an unrestricted basis they would quickly upset the advantage of better quality reception offered by our national service and would seriously affect its revenue earning capacity.

I listened with attention to the very lengthy contribution of Deputy Dr. Browne in relation to RTE with the expectation, from quarter-hour to quarter-hour, that something interesting would emerge from his lengthy discourse. I could identify only a few points of substance coming within the area of my functions under the Broadcasting Authority Act, 1960, either directly or indirectly. As regards the Radio Éireann Symphony Orchestra, with whose future the Deputy seemed concerned, I can tell him it is employed by RTE and I have not become aware of any anxiety anywhere except in the mind of the Deputy.

The Deputy spoke at great length on the subject of violence and its portrayal on television. I share the Deputy's dislike for any excessive display of violence on television and like many other people I often wonder whether it has not ill effects on young people. I am sure the Deputy will be aware that extensive investigations have been made into this subject without any firm conclusions having been reached. However, I have little doubt that the Broadcasting Review Committee will give attention to this subject and will in turn, if they think it necessary, report their opinions on the matter. I will certainly give consideration to their recommendations.

Deputy Dr. Browne referred repeatedly to the direction given by me on 1st October last to the RTE Authority under section 31 of the 1960 Act, directing the authority to refrain from broadcasting any matter calculated to promote the aims or activities of any organisation which engage in, promote, encourage or advocate the attaining of any particular objective by violent means. I am afraid that after it all I am not quite sure whether the Deputy approved or disapproved of the issue of this direction. He criticised me for having referred only briefly to the issuing of the 1st October direction. I had not thought it necessary, in view of the enormous amount of publicity the issuing of the direction had attracted in all the media, to describe again at length in the House the reason for the issuing of the direction. I thought it sufficient to give only the final precipitant cause.

However, in order to satisfy the Deputy I will re-cover the grounds already many times trodden at the time of the issue of the direction and since. First of all, this was the first and only time on which the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs used the powers of prohibition conferred on him by section 31 of the Broadcasting Authority Act, 1960. The Minister for Justice on a number of occasions had referred to the question of members of illegal organisations being given publicity in the news media and had asked in the Dáil—he did so on 28th April, 1971— that the news media should exercise responsibility in the publication of propaganda emanating from subversive sources and very often actually claiming credit for serious criminal offences.

The matter was raised in the Dáil again after the broadcasting of RTE's radio news programme on 20th June, 1971, on which members of an illegal organisation were interviewed. Questions were put down for answer by the Taoiseach, the Minister for Justice and myself, asking if representations were made directly or indirectly to RTE about the programme. The Taoiseach, the Minister for Justice and I reaffirmed the view that it was not in the public interest that members of illegal organisations should be permitted to use such a programme for publicising their activities. I had communicated this view to RTE before the programme was broadcast but did not issue a direction prohibiting the broadcast.

On 1st October, 1971, following the appearance of members of an illegal organisation on the "7 Days" programme, I invoked section 31 of the Act and directed the authority in writing to refrain from broadcasting any matter of the following class: any matter that could be calculated to promote the aims or activities of any organisation which engage in, promote, encourage or advocate the attaining of any particular objective by violent means. That direction was issued following a Government decision and the direction remains in operation and will continue that way as long as it is judged to be necessary.

The conclusion of Deputy Dr. Browne's speech was rather puzzling. He looked forward to the possibility that people from Peking, from Budapest, Moscow, Paris and other places would tune in to Telefís Éireann but he felt that that glittering prospect had been impaired by the loss to RTE of people like Leila Doolan, Jack Dowling, Muiris Mac Congaill. Deputies Thornley and Keating were included. Perhaps he is right but I am afraid that if the people of Peking, Moscow, Budapest, Paris and the other places are to be deterred from viewing Telefís Éireann by the absence of these individuals, the fault will not be that of the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs who had no say whatsoever in their parting with RTE. As regards the last two artists named, namely, the Deputy's colleagues. Deputies Thornley and Keating, I assume they left RTE in order the better to be able to enjoy the benefits of the Deputy's company in the House. If the whole world must suffer for that loss. I cannot see why I should be blamed.

On the question of the RTE archive material raised by Deputy Cruise-O'Brien, from inquiries I have learned that in the past few years RTE have built up quite a considerable library organisation in which about 40 people are employed. In the library are stored film, sound tapes, video tapes, "stills" and printed material. The purpose of the library is to serve the programme departments. A great deal of work has been done in cataloguing and storing material, but there are still arrears to be cleared up. All tapes, after transmission, are passed to the library where they are retained and no tape may be cleaned without the approval of the head of the programme department concerned who, in doubtful cases, might refer a particular tape to an assistant programme controller who might in turn refer the question to the programme controller. Thus the cleaning of tapes is not a haphazard matter.

Tapes could be retained for a number of reasons. They could be retained for repeat purposes, for the end of the year review, for their intrinsic, historical or literary content, for their sociological importance. Material of little or no programme value might be retained for its historical or sociological value. In calculating the amount of material on video tape which can be stored one has to have regard to the limitations of space and the money involved. The amount of space required can be reduced by transferring the material to film. RTE have no facilities for such transferrence and the work has to be done in England and it cost about £400 per hour to have material transferred to film as against £100 an hour in the case of video tape. Therefore, to retain material on film is very expensive but despite all this a lot of material has been transferred to film. As to money, RTE would normally hold used tapes to the replacement value of £120,000 to £130,000. There is a constant pressure to keep this investment at a reasonable level, having regard to all the needs involved.

A large proportion of home productions is transmitted from video tape because of the difficulties associated with the live transmissions from studios. This means that the consumption of tape is very high and there is also a big problem involved in storing it. There is a constant pressure to release material from tape and I understand that there are no formal written policies on this question. RTE consider that the arrangements in force for the preservation of recorded material are satisfactory. However, I understand, as I stated already in reply to a Parliamentary Question, that they propose to consult with the various public archive authorities with a view to seeing whether any improvements in the arrangements are practicable.

Deputy Mrs. Hogan O'Higgins and Deputy Cooney referred to reports of the erasing of video tapes of material recording performances of the late Seán Ó Riada and the late Jimmy O'Dea. As to the Ó Riada tapes, the decision to clean them was based on the judgment that the material involved was not of high significance in the context of the whole volume of his work and on the expectation that there would be future occasions, on which to record for television, performance of a greater importance but we all know that the composer's untimely death frustrated this latter expectation. There is, however, a substantial amount of Seán Ó Riada's work recorded on sound tape and held by RTE—about 15 hours in all. In addition, RTE still have some pieces featuring Seán Ó Riada on film. These include one piece of film of which I am aware, which features the composer talking of an tAthair Peadair Ó Laoghaire. In hindsight, of course, it could be claimed that the cleaning of the tapes in question was, to some degree, an error of judgment, and that it might have been better if the best of the material had been selected and re-recorded for retention.

Regarding the Jimmy O'Dea material, only the less interesting material was cleaned from the tapes involved and RTE have retained a lot of material portraying the late artist.

Deputy Hogan O'Higgins referred to the matter of RTE's adherence to section 31. I am confident that the Authority will carry out the direction in its terms and in its spirit and that hey will take any necessary action to secure conformity with it in every programme section. The same Deputy mentioned that she had experience of delays in the local delivery of letters posted in Dublin. If Deputy Hogan O'Higgins or any other Deputy who may experience such delays will forward the envelopes in question to this Department, we shall do our utmost to pinpoint the trouble and, if possible, eradicate it.

The question of stamp-vending machines was mentioned by Deputy Barry. Perhaps I should explain that it was not practicable to convert the machines that were used for selling stamps in the £sd currency to decimal currency operation. Therefore, it was necessary that the machines be replaced by machines of a new design. These new machines are in two types. One is capable of being operated by a 5p coin and the other by a 10p coin. The first is set to deliver three stamps in the denominations of 2½p, 1½p and 1p, while the other one will be set to deliver four stamps in the denominations 4p, 2p, 1½p and 2½p. These machines were ordered in September, 1969 but the manufacturers experienced some production difficulties and delivery of the bulk of our requirements of the 5p coin machines was completed only very recently. These have now been installed in Dublin and in all but a few of the provincial head post offices. Installation of them at the few offices concerned is held up by the need for structural works to accommodate them. None of the machines to take the the 10p coin have yet been delivered but we expect to have them shortly. It is proposed to instal these together with the 5p coin machines at the busier centres.

Deputy Desmond mentioned the staggering of postings by large users and said that this would prevent bottlenecks occurring. I would like to assure the Deputy and everybody else that every opportunity is availed of to enlist the co-operation of large users of the post in this matter. There has been a limited amount of success to date and, naturally, our efforts are continuing but it must be appreciated that large users of the service have their own routines and problems and since they pay the Post Office for the service rendered they expect the Department to adjust to their requirements rather than vice versa.

There was reference by Deputy Coogan to the Lettermore sub-post office appointment. The facts in this case are the same as were published in the Department's statement that was issued on 8th November and which I quote:

The attention of the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs has been drawn to an allegation that the transfer of the sub-post office at Lettermore, Galway, is being made "for political reasons".

The facts are that the former sub-postmaster, Mr. O'Connor, was suspended in July, 1970, following a check of the sub-office accounts, and dismissed the following month. Since July, 1970, the sub-office business has been conducted by Departmental staff in premises rented from Mr. O'Connor.

The vacancy was advertised in the normal way. The applications were considered by the Departmental selection board, and the most suitable candidate, Mrs. O'Toole, was appointed. Sub-postmasters handle large sums of public money and the financial standing of candidates is an important element in determining suitability.

The suggestion has also been made that the new post office will be in a public house. The new sub-office is in premises adjoining but separated from a public house. There are many other sub-post offices similarly located.

Some local people, supported by outside agitators, have stirred up trouble apparently in favour of some unsuccessful candidate. These people have cut the telephone line to the new post office and they have cut also the telephone line of the local dispensary doctor. By their obstruction, they have prevented delivery of mail in the area and, also, they have prevented the removal of the telephone exchange and equipment from the old premises to the present post office, virtually cutting off telephone service in the area.

I want to make it clear that I do not intend giving in to this sort of blackmail. As I said, the former sub-postmaster had to be dismissed for reasons which I have indicated and the new sub-postmistress was selected in fair competition and her appointment will stand. So far as the agitation in Lettermore has any local support other than that of possible disgruntled relatives of unsuccessful candidates and their supporters, I am sure this can be due only to local people being unaware of the facts. Despite the physical obstruction that prevented engineering workmen from removing the exchange from the rented premises of the former sub-post master to the new office, I withheld a statement of the facts as long as I could. This was for reasons of delicacy but eventually it became necessary to issue the statement I have quoted.

I must say something that I know will be regarded as unpopular with certain sections of the Press and this is that I was disappointed with the behaviour of certain sections of the national Press in relation to the official factual statement issued by my directive. Only one of the four national morning newspapers—the Irish Times— published the statement. In fairness, the Independent and the Cork Examiner carried abbreviated versions omitting certain parts of it but I am afraid one morning paper—the Irish Press— omitted the statement altogether. The Evening Press did likewise but the Evening Herald carried the statement in full. The newspapers had been carrying quite an amount of publicity about the Litir Mór affair for some time previously and there had been no difficulty about printing misleading, one-sided statements regarding the removal of the post office, but when it came to the question of publishing an official authorised statement of the facts I am afraid I did not get a fair crack of the whip except from the Irish Times and the Evening Herald. We read a lot from time to time in our newspapers about allegations of censorship and the serious dangers in censorship of the Press—and I believe that this is something we should all abhor—but I believe that there was a certain selective censorship by suppression, in whole or in part, by newspapers of the facts of a situation regarding which misleading statements had been published in these same newspapers. I believe that this censorship, or this omission, may have left some of the people of Litir Mór under a misapprehension about the facts in relation to the violent agitation which some of them are supporting. I should be most interested to see whether the Irish Press which omitted my statement on the 9th November last will do the same thing with regard to the statement which I have now made.

Mr. Kavanagh

Would the Minister not agree that the siting of sub-post offices is a very low priority in the Department, that they are in the most inconvenient areas for the people who use them?

Mr. G. Collins

This is a matter which is taken into consideration.

Mr. Kavanagh

It is a very low priority. There are other priorities such as finance.

Mr. G. Collins

It is not. I can assure Deputy Kavanagh it is not very low on the list of priorities at all. On the telephone side, Deputy Mrs. Hogan O'Higgins had some very hard things to say about the telephone service. She said it was chaotic in Dublin and even worse in the country. I would be the last person to deny certain shortcomings in the service but I cannot accept this exaggeration of the general quality of the service. As I mentioned in my introductory statement, the service handles 327 million calls, that is about one million calls per working day and the great bulk of these calls are connected immediately or promptly and without any great difficulty. Exaggerated complaint is unfair to the service and to the people who are trying to operate it. I am sure Deputy Mrs. Hogan O'Higgins would not want to be unfair to these people.

Deputy Desmond also suggested that there was a grave deterioration in the standard of service and maintenance. Both Deputies, as well as Deputies Tully, Barry and Cooney, referred to the shortage of capital for necessary telephone development as a cause of the deficiencies in the service. I made it quite clear in my opening statement, as I also did last March, that the capital made available for telephone development is insufficient to keep the service up to the standard we want to see and to provide fully for the needs of the community. More money has been made available this year and I am hopeful that in future years the need will be more fully met so that we can make the maximum progress with this very essential and profitable service. As my public statements have made clear. I share the views of Deputies on the need for heavy investment in the telephone service. On the other hand, Deputies will realise that other important services, such as housing, hospitals and industrial development, also have claims on the national pool of available capital. Nevertheless, I shall do everything possible to secure high priority for the needs of the telephone service. It is a vital service which is necessary for the whole community and also very necessary for industry.

Many Deputies referred to the backlog of telephone applications and to the increase in the waiting list in the past year. It was not very pleasant for me to report this increase but, as I explained, we have lacked the resources in skilled staff and capital to meet the explosive demand of recent years. Perhaps I should again emphasise that to meet this demand promptly as it arises requires above all that plant be available on an extensive scale in advance throughout the country. We have had to restrict our efforts to instal additional telephones within the last year because of the general need to conserve capital. We have already taken measures, following the allocation of additional capital by the Government, to recover lost ground in this regard. Two of the more immediate difficulties are a lack of underground cable in Dublin and a few provincial areas, and temporary shortage of exchange equipment. We are awaiting delivery of this equipment and when we have it we will be able to do reasonably good work in a reasonably short time. It will take a considerable time to get all the equipment to meet the expanding needs. Planning is going ahead on the basis that all the required capital will be available. All I can say at this stage is that I sincerely hope that I shall get it.

I think everybody realises that the post office will have to compete with other Government Departments for their share of the capital cake. I hope it will be big enough to accommodate all of us. It must be said, however, that the telephone administrations which can command far more resources in terms of capital and skilled personnel than we can and which are more highly developed telephonically have difficulty in meeting the demand for telephones. Deputy Desmond said that an international telecommunication consortium would dearly love to get their hand on a bloc of 20,000 or so people looking for telephones. I can assure him that such a consortium would have far greater scope for their activities in many other countries. For example, in Britain earlier this year there were over 300,000 people waiting for telephones; in France 400,000 people; and in Holland, Belgium, Norway and Italy there were 126,000, 42,000, 32,000 and almost 200,000 applications respectively, awaiting attention. Even the private enterprise systems in the USA to which Deputy Desmond referred have waiting lists. I understand there are a million or more people with shared service in the USA who are awaiting exclusive lines. In saying this I do not wish to convey any sense of complacency about our own waiting list but merely to indicate that meeting demands for telephones is not just a problem which we have but a problem which many other countries have.

Several Deputies expressed the view that if the telephone service were independent its capital needs would receive preferential treatment. I am afraid this is an over-optimistic view. I assure Deputies that in settling the State capital programme each year the Government decide the limits that can be afforded for all semi-State as well as all State organisations.

Deputy Mrs. Hogan O'Higgins criticised the binding of the telephone directory and said that even the ones around the House here are in bits in no time. In connection with another suggestion of hers she said that it is very irritating to find the directory thrown here and there. Might I suggest there could possibly be a link between these two complaints? Certainly, the directory will not last long if it is thrown about here and there. In response to inquiries made as a result of the Deputy's complaint and a less moderately phrased one from Deputy Desmond, I am informed that the directories in the House on occasions go to pieces because irresponsible users tear pages from them.

Mrs. Hogan O'Higgins

Not members of the House, of course.

Mr. G. Collins

No doubt, the fault lies with visitors to the House, because I am sure no Deputy would engage in such a practice.

Deputy Desmond referred to the directory as diabolical and went on to say that a six-year-old child would put a better cover on his school book than the cover on the directory. He added that it was dreadful, that it should be harder and that the binding is also terrible.

Dr. O'Donovan

The print is very small.

Mr. G. Collins

Last year I had to deprecate the attack by another Labour Deputy on the work and craftsmanship of Irish trade union labour and skill. I am sorry that in this good humoured and pleasant debate Deputy Desmond should have introduced what can be described as a savage attack on Irish craftsmen.

Mr. Kavanagh

You get what you pay for.

Mr. G. Collins

The Irish telephone directory stands comparison with directories of corresponding size in other countries and, given reasonable treatment, will last well. I cannot at all accept the implication in Deputy Desmond's statement that because it is produced by Irish manufacturers and craftsmen, it is inferior.

Mr. Kavanagh

I do not think he said that.

Mr. G. Collins

He did. If you read the record, he did. This was the implication in what he said.

Mr. Kavanagh

The Minister is interpreting him.

Mr. G. Collins

Well, naturally. He said it. I have to try to answer it. Deputy Mrs. Hogan O'Higgins and Deputy Desmond suggested that a hole should be placed in the top left-hand corner of the directory. This suggestion has been made on a number of occasions and I am advised that instead of making the directory better it would possibly have a worsening effect on it because it would weaken the binding and would slow down production by about two months and I doubt if a hole in the corner would compensate for its being two months out of date.

Dr. O'Donovan

And the pages fall out more easily.

Mr. G. Collins

This is what we are told by experts on this subject.

Mr. Kavanagh

When will we get this year's directory?

Mr. G. Collins

We have it already.

Mr. Kavanagh

That is good.

Mr. G. Collins

Several Deputies referred to the provision of telephone kiosks. There are at the moment 1,850 in the country and of these about 163 were provided last year. In every post office there is a public telephone or call office. The distribution of post offices throughout the country is such that most people are within a few miles, at most, of a public telephone. As a rule, towns with populations of under 500 would not support two public telephones. Accordingly, the call office in the sub-post office usually ceases on the provision of a kiosk. The advantage lies with the kiosk in that it provides a 24 hour continuous service whereas a call office is normally open during office hours.

A change of policy in regard to the provision of telephone kiosks was introduced in 1969. It was decided then to allow a modest subsidy in the case of kiosks in rural areas and to make more rapid progress in the provision of kiosks in those areas. It was also decided that this could best be done by replacing by kiosks the call office telephones in rural sub-post offices which were used to a fair extent. The provision of kiosks in rural areas where there is no post office is not envisaged under the expanding rural kiosk programme. Apart from the difficulty of measuring the use likely to be made of a kiosk where there is no public telephone, there is little doubt that, by and large, a population that is not sufficiently large to warrant a sub-post office is not likely to make nearly sufficient calls to warrant the provision of a telephone kiosk. The effect of the 1969 decision has been to increase the number of rural kiosks provided from 48 in the year ended March, 1969, to 129 in the year ended March, 1971.

I should like to explain to the House that the expanded rural kiosk programme involves considerable expenditure of capital and engineering staff time and, having regard to all the urgent tasks which we have in hands, such as the extension of trunk system, exchanges, underground and overhead cabling, connection of subscribers' lines, provision of telephone kiosks in other rural areas, that is areas where there is no post office or where the call office telephone in the local post office is little used, I am afraid we cannot do any more than we are doing at present.

While the ideal—this has been mentioned by several Deputies, Deputy Crowley was very strong on it—might be to have a kiosk in every tiny community, I believe we have to be realistic in our priorities. But I want to spell out very clearly that if a local authority wishes to have a telephone kiosk provided in an out-of-the-way place and will guarantee it against loss, my Department will arrange for it. This has been done in some places. I see Deputy Kavanagh is smiling. I gave him the suggestion some months ago and I think his local authority have put it into operation and the matter is under consideration in other places. It is something that, apparently, members of local authorities are not fully aware of. We will be only too glad to help them on this if they want to take it up.

Deputy Tully suggested that the equipment required for post office purposes should be manufactured in this country. I should like to inform the House and the Deputy that many engineering stores used by the post office are, in fact, made in this country. Expansion of the scope of production of equipment of this kind is, of course, primarily a matter for the Minister for Industry and Commerce and the IDA. Let me say, however, that I share Deputy Tully's views on this point and the matter which he mentioned has been receiving active consideration by the IDA and is being fully supported by my Department.

Now we come to a hardy annual— vandalism in telephone kiosks. Deputy Mrs. Hogan O'Higgins and other Deputies referred to the number of telephone kiosks which are out of action as a result of vandalism. My Department is doing what is practicable to reduce such vandalism, which is almost entirely an urban problem. We are trying to keep this urban problem of vandalism to a minimum. Sites are selected where the kiosk is likely to be least vulnerable to vandalism. For example, we try to site them in well-lighted thoroughfares, near shopping centres, or near Garda barracks, if at all possible, but we do know that kiosks have been subjected to excessive vandalism and those that have been so subjected have to be removed to alternative sites, or else we have to take them away altogether. Other measures have been taken to reduce the incidence of vandalism, but not with the success that we would wish. These include the replacement of small glass panes with very strong plastic material and the fitting of steel plates to the backs of kiosks to enable the coin boxes to be more securely secured. We are having reasonable success here but I should like to say that vandalism in telephone kiosks is not just a problem in this country. It occurs in many other countries. We are keeping in touch with other administrations to see how they combat it and, of course, we are always open to suggestions and would welcome constructive suggestions from any quarter to help us to overcome this problem.

Deputy FitzGerald referred to a great many things and I shall deal with what I consider to be one of the important things he spoke about, namely, the reverse charge facilities. Under reversed charge facilities for telephone calls, the person who calls accepts the charge for the call made by him on behalf of the person called and requests the reversal of the charge at the booking stage. These facilities have been available for some time on traffic between Ireland and the USA, Ireland and Canada and Ireland and Mexico. Under the accounting arrangements revenue from all calls in both directions is divided on a 50/50 basis. Consequently this facility involves neither a loss nor a gain of revenue on either side. As all calls are controlled by the operator in Dublin, New York or Montreal there is no difficulty in recording the necessary details for the purpose of subsequent accounting arrangements. We have made proposals to the British Post Office to introduce reversed charge facilities on traffic between the two countries and we are awaiting their reply.

With regard to continental calls, reversed facilities are available on our direct route to France and Spain. Where other continental services are concerned, the position is that outgoing calls are booked at Dublin and passed to the continental exchange in London, which subsequently controls and supervises the call; the call is normally connected directly with the Irish subscriber. Similarly, incoming calls are switched from London. Reversed charge facilities here could cause operating and accounting difficulties. The ordinary revenue on telephone calls from Ireland and continental countries is such that a reduction of facilities could lead to a loss of revenue to the Department. It is unlikely that we will be able to overcome this difficulty until the new international exchange is provided in Dublin late in 1973 or early in 1974. Deputy FitzGerald said that he believed that these facilities were not in existence at all. I shall be charitable and refrain from saying too much about this belief on the Deputy's part; if he can find the time to make inquiries he will find that the facilities are actually there.

Deputy Mrs. Hogan O'Higgins referred to the service in the Waterville area as being a bad service. Waterville is regarded as a well-run exchange.

Mrs. Hogan O'Higgins

I was talking about the trunk office in Cahirciveen.

Mr. G. Collins

Cahirciveen is also regarded as a well-run exchange. I understand the service in Waterville was adversely affected up to about March of this year because of a shortage of switchboards. That situation was remedied in March and there is no reason now why the service should not be a good one. I know from what the Deputy said and from conversations I have had with her that things are not as good as I would like them to be at the peak of the summer season. I have a certain sympathy with the Deputy because I, too, visit that part of the country when time permits. I must say, however, that I have no difficulty what ever in getting through to Cahirciveen exchange.

Mr. Kavanagh

I wonder why.

Mr. G. Collins

That is unfair. It could happen that something might be wrong at the Waterville end. I shall have the matter investigated and I will get in touch with the Deputy. Last August things were not too good in Cahirciveen because of the exceptionally busy season. We will keep the position under review.

Deputy Tully referred to overloading at Navan and to the fact that outlying areas—Trim, Nobber and Athboy —were connected to it. In the original planning it was arranged that these exchanges would be connected to Navan because Navan acts as a transit centre. This is a standard arrangement in telephone operations. Because of the very rapid growth in telephone traffic the switchboard equipment at Navan became overloaded in the summer of 1970 and, as a result of that overloading, some subscribers encountered occasional difficulty in dialling; they got no dial tone, the engaged signal or wrong numbers. Additional switchboard equipment was installed towards the end of 1970 and a complete overhaul of the exchange was carried out. Additional equipment was also installed this year. The service for existing subscribers is now satisfactory. Further equipment is on order and it is expected to be installed before the end of next June. Because of the difficulties experienced by subscribers in the area caution is being exercised about adding new subscribers pending the installation of further equipment next June. Certain priority orders are, of course, being met.

Deputy Tully was concerned about the provision of adequate room for extensions to new telephone exchange buildings to meet future needs. New buildings are generally planned in such fashion as to meet estimated requirements up to 20 years ahead. Longer forward provision is made in the case of sites when possible. Some existing buildings are not adequate for present needs but these were planned many years ago. In others the demand for telephones and the volume of call traffic increased at a rate which could not have been foreseen at the planning stage. Steps have been taken to remedy this situation and, in estimating future requirements, my Department keeps in close touch with the development authorities.

Deputy P. Barry referred to the delivery of telegrams at weekends and on bank holidays. Arrangements for delivery on Saturday are the same as those on other weekdays. Full delivery of telegrams on Sundays and bank holidays would not be justified. A very small number of telegrams would be involved and effective staffing would be very difficult and extremely expensive. It must be remembered that the telegraph service operates at a substantial loss. However telegrams are delivered to telephone or telex subscribers on Sundays and bank holidays and in Dublin city special arrangements exist for the delivery of urgent telegrams by hand. If an exceptionally urgent telegram is received for a provincial area the Central Telegraph Office in Dublin makes special efforts to arrange for the delivery of that telegram. I can assure everybody that life and death messages always receive special treatment.

Deputy Tully also referred to the Central Sorting Office in Dublin. Plans for the installation of a mechanised ventilation system throughout the building are well advanced and it is expected work will commence by next April or May. The installation will take about 12 months to complete. It is hoped the new system will provide satisfactory ventilation as well as counteracting excessive solar heat. The staff are being kept informed about progress. We hope the system will be in operation in 1973.

Deputy Tully also referred to the lack of parking facilities for staff cars at the Central Sorting Office. There is parking for bicycles and autocycles in the building. There is on-street parking available for cars. Unfortunately, as the Deputy said, parked cars are frequently damaged by vandals. The gardaí have been asked to exercise increased vigilance in this area. I will look into the Deputy's suggestion about a possible parking space being made available in the locality for renting.

The Deputy also mentioned the proposed new offices at Ballsbridge, Donegal and Mullingar. The proposal by a private developer for the leasing of accommodation to be built to our requirements on a new site at Shelbourne Road, Ballsbridge, looks very promising and is being followed up. In the case of Donegal final sketch plans have been approved. The Commissioners of Public Works advise that working drawings are being prepared but they cannot say at this stage when building work will commence there. I assume that this year's small Office of Public Works allocation is for the preliminary work connected with the building. So far as Mullingar is concerned, sketch plans were received by my Department on 22nd November and are now being examined. My remark about the small Office of Public Works provision for Donegal applies also to Mullingar.

Deputy Cooney inquired about the proposed new post office at Longford. I understand from the Commissioners of Public Works that final sketch plans are being prepared but it is too early to forecast when building work is likely to commence.

Deputy Mrs. Hogan O'Higgins said that postmen's uniforms were drab, dreary and ill-fitting. Deputy Barry spoke about pre-First World War uniforms. New type uniforms have been issued to established postmen for the last two years. They are of a type advocated by the men's union and are made of improved quality cloth. The old type uniform which was first issued in 1952 is still being issued on a restricted basis to temporary and auxiliary postmen until stocks run out. I am convinced that uniforms should not be ill-fitting because they are stocked in 49 different sizes and every effort is made to supply a suitable fitting uniform. I do not think, however, we would have anything to fit the Parliamentary Secretary to the Taoiseach, he is too big.

Deputy Tully raised the matter of light-weight summer uniforms for postmen. A proposal for light-weight summer jackets was fully considered some years ago but it was not favoured on the grounds that in Irish weather conditions warm spells are of relatively short duration and can be countered by adjustment in ordinary clothing. We have had no great demand for light-weight uniforms from the staff in recent years.

Deputy FitzGerald seemed to be preoccupied with the idea that the trunk call pass card system operated by the Department of Posts and Telegraphs is something we are trying to hide. If the Deputy took time off from other matters he would find that this is not so. Any telephone subscriber may request to have a trunk call pass card issued to him or a nominated person. Persons holding these cards may make trunk calls, including overseas calls through an operator from any telephone. The charges are debited in due course to his own telephone account. Just to show how wrong the Deputy is there are 2,000 cards in operation at the moment, but I shall be far more charitable in my remarks about Deputy FitzGerald than he was in some of his remarks.

The question of pensions for auxiliary postmen was raised again this year by many Deputies. When replying to the Estimate last year I stated that a staff claim for pensions for part-time and unestablished full-time civil servants was being considered at the general council under the scheme of conciliation and arbitration for civil servants. Since then a measure of agreement has been reached on that claim. The agreement provides for a pension scheme for all full-time unestablished civil servants but it was not possible to agree to the introduction of a pension scheme for part-time civil servants. The retirement gratuity for part-time staff has been improved considerably. They now receive a gratuity calculated on the basis of one week's pay for each of the first 15 years of service and two weeks pay thereafter subject to a maximum of 78 weeks pay.

I am glad to note there is general agreement that the pay of staff should continue to be settled on the basis of fair comparison with other workers and accordingly when other workers get increases to meet increases in the cost of living Post Office workers should get them too. Many Deputies referred to the claims for political rights for Post Office staffs. Discussions on this claim are continuing at the Post Office departmental council under the scheme of conciliation and arbitration for the Civil Service. It would be inappropriate for me to comment on it at this particular stage.

Deputy Desmond raised the question of whether the Post Office should have a computer of its own and whether computer work for the Civil Service as a whole should not be co-ordinated and centralised. Co-ordination in matters of this kind in the Civil Service is exercised by the Department of Finance and the decision that the Post Office should have a computer of its own was taken only after full examination of the various alternatives and after consideration of expert advice which we received on the subject This does not rule out the possibility of centralisation later should the balance of advantage then lie in the adopting of that course.

Deputy Tully and other Deputies considered that the rate of interest paid by the Post Office Saving Bank is not sufficiently attractive and should be increased. This is a matter which comes within the bailiwick of the Minister for Finance. The present rate of 4 per cent compares favourably with the rate of 3 per cent now allowed by the commercial banks on deposits under £25,000.

Deputy Cooney did not think there had been enough publicity regarding saving certificates and instalment savings. He felt the Department should review its advertising policy with a view to giving its saving schemes a glamour image. In regard to advertising the Post Office savings service is advised by one of the leading and best known advertising agencies in the country. I believe some of the recent advertisements do give its savings scheme a glamour image. I have in mind the recent, "Your passport to dreams" slogan and the "Back a Savings Certificate" advertisement. An advertising campaign on instalment savings ran for two months recently and covered all the advertising media including television, radio and the cinema. The savings certificate campaign began in mid-November and will continue until the first week of December. A total of £80,000 has been allocated for advertising Post Office savings in 1977-72.

Deputy Cooney thought there had been a falling off in sales of the eighth issue savings certificates and instalments savings after a good start in each case. Although there has been some falling off both schemes are still going well. In October sales of savings certificates amounted to £819,000 and almost 4,000 instalments savings agreements were received representing total annual savings of over £700,000.

Deputy Mrs. Hogan O'Higgins spoke of some difficulties in the collection of social welfare benefits in rural areas because of the closing of sub-post offices. The number of offices we have closed is quite small. The closing of a sub-post office should not create problems for old age pensioners because pensioners who are unable or who do not wish to collect their pensions personally can nominate an agent to do so on their behalf and this facility is availed of by many pensioners.

Deputy Mrs. Hogan O'Higgins also spoke about taking the Post Office or the telephone side anyway, out of the Civil Service. I am sure she is aware that a rather different recommendation was made in the Devlin Report and that that recommendation and other related ones are under consideration by the Government.

Deputy Desmond referred to the Devlin Report recommendation that the Post Office should be merged with the Department of Transport and Power into a new Department of Transport and Communications. This was made within the framework of the major recommendation that policy-making should be separated from the execution of policy and, pending a decision on the major recommendations, consideration of the amalgamation proposal has not progressed very far.

Deputy Dr. Browne referred to the giro system and he went on to make some rather large claims for it such as "it could provide the Government with a large amount of capital for expenditure on housing". The post office giro system is a current account system with cheque facilities which has operated with varying degrees of success in many western European countries where banking and post office remittance services have developed on different lines to this country. Giro has been established in the British Post Office. Very high expectations had been expressed by its advocates but I imagine Deputies are aware that its success in Great Britain has been limited so far—and there have been, in fact, very heavy losses on the service.

Dr. O'Donovan

Is the Minister calling that a success?

Mr. G. Collins

Not at all. If the Deputy thought I was claiming success for the British giro system, I can assure him I was not. I was showing that the advocates of the giro system said it would be a great success; in fact, it has not been the success they thought it would be and they have lost a lot of money on it.

For our country giro would be a major innovation and serious financial and organisational problems would have to be solved. The view has been taken that until there is a strong public demand for this service and a clear indication that it could pay its way, the introduction of giro— although certainly a possibility to be kept in mind—cannot be given a high priority in the many demands on the Department and on the State's resources.

So far as the recent bank strike is concerned, the indications are that the public found the Department's existing remittance service satisfactory. It would not have been possible to introduce giro quickly and its introduction in the context of an industrial dispute would not necessarily have made it any easier.

Deputy FitzGerald referred to the increases in postal and telecommunication charges made in 1970 and sought information concerning the increases.

I am forced to conclude that the Deputy has forgotten that since those increases were made we had a 22-hour debate on the Estimate for the Department of Posts and Telegraphs in February and March last. At that time there was ample opportunity, which was availed of by many Deputies, to deal with this subject. Possibly the Deputy overlooked the matter because his attendance in the House during that long debate, which extended over a four-week period, was confined to the period when he was speaking. Therefore, having missed the rest of the debate he was unaware of the discussion that had taken place. However, I am anxious to be as helpful as possible to the Deputy as to where he could find information in relation to the causes for the increase in rates. I would refer him to the Press statement issued when the increases were announced, to the notes for the information of Deputies circulated in February last in advance of the debate, and to the records of the debate itself. If the Deputy requires any further assistance I suppose I should say I will do my best to help him.

Deputy Hogan O'Higgins thought that postal and telegraph charges cannot be increased further and she would not advocate increasing telephone charges. There has been a good deal of critical comment in some newspapers about my statement that the question of a further adjustment of post office charges will have to be considered shortly. I should like to point out that I made this statement after mentioning that there had been an overall surplus of £512.756 in 1969-70 but that it was expected that the accounts for 1970-71 would show that this surplus had been converted to an overall deficit of £1½ million and that it appeared there would be an even higher deficit in 1971-72 and for 1972-73. I added I was not in a position to say any more at that time.

I considered it necessary to refer to the possibility that charges might have to be adjusted before long because the Department's financial position is deteriorating, mainly as a result of the inflation that has been with us for some years past. Obviously, some action will have to be taken to remedy this situation. As proposals for dealing with the problem have not been prepared yet, I am not able to give the House any further information on the question of charges at present but I should like to make a few general comments on the financial situation.

During this debate it was not recommended by any Deputy that post office services should be curtailed in any way. Deputy Tully was the only person to mention this possibility, but his attitude was that he hoped it was not proposed to follow the example of the British Post Office of reducing the number of deliveries. On the other hand, several Deputies recommended that various things should be done which would involve further expenditure, thereby increasing the overall deficit. We had many recommendations for the erection of greater numbers of telephone kiosks in rural areas as a social service, not on the basis of whether they paid their way. There were suggestions for an improvement of postmen's uniforms; of going ahead more rapidly with the building of new post offices and improving the appearance of existing offices; improvements in the pensions, gratuities and pay of auxiliary postmen; better pay for sub-postmasters and a special allowance to cover the cost of painting their premises; extensions of scholarship schemes, et cetera.

However, unless existing services are seriously curtailed, we must face the fact that with the present charges there will be an increasing deficit in my Department's operations during the present inflationary period. The question then arises whether this deficit should be met by the taxpayers or by the users of the services the Department provide. In the Official Report dated 25th February, 1971, at column 2130, when introducing the Estimate for my Department, I stated:

It is obviously more equitable that they should be met by the users because the public use the Post Office services in widely differing degree.

A decision to meet the deficit from general taxation would benefit mostly the larger users and would mean that the Minister for Finance would have so much less available for other purposes.

Deputy FitzGerald indicated that more frequent modest increases in charges to keep pace with rising inflationary costs were preferable to a delay in increasing charges and then making a substantial increase, such as that made last year. I am inclined to share this point of view and in my opening statement. I mentioned that recent and forthcoming increases in costs such as wages would make a review of post office charges necessary. I believe I am correct in assuming from the Deputy's remarks that he and his party would support proposals for reasonable increases in post office charges to meet inescapable rises in costs. If there is a decision to increase charges the matter will be dealt with in the ordinary way. Statutory orders, which would have to be laid before the House, would be necessary for any increase except telephone rentals.

Deputy Cooney made a fairly lengthy contribution to the debate in which he concentrated largely on the finances of the Department. I am sure the Deputy was endeavouring to be helpful but he appears to be under a serious misapprehension about the Department's accounts. This led him astray, so much so that I think it would be fruitless for me to attempt to reply in detail to the various points he made. He appears to be unaware that the Department produce annually a profit and loss account with details of income and expenditure and a balance sheet in respect of all its operations, with separate accounts for the postal, telegraph and telephone services and agency services. The accounts are published by the Stationery Office and are presented to the Oireachtas annually. The accounts for the year ended 31st March last are not yet in final form. For this reason the figures quoted in the notes which I circulated to Deputies in advance of the Estimate were for the year 1969-70 the latest year for which audited commercial accounts are available.

That covers as best I can the many many points raised in the course of the debate. If any Deputy feels he would like a reply to anything which I did not cover, I will certainly be only too glad to oblige him. I should like once again to thank Deputies for their helpful and constructive criticisms during the course of this very interesting debate and in particular for the kind remarks they made regarding the staff of my Department. The debate was a very friendly one and in a very low key. To my mind, this is one of the few Departments which can have its Estimate debated in such a calm and sensible manner. I am grateful to Deputies for the co-operation we got this year.

Vote put and agreed to.