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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 26 Jan 1972

Vol. 258 No. 4

Garda Síochána Bill, 1971: Second Stage.

I move:

"That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

This is a short and, I think, noncontroversial Bill which, in the words of the Long Title, enables the Government to determine the ranks of the Garda Síochána and the maximum number of members of the Garda Síochána of each rank. Section 1 of the Bill provides accordingly. Section 2 contains the consequential repeals and the remaining section deals with the short title, collective citation and construction.

At present the various ranks of the Garda Síochána and the maximum number in each rank are prescribed by statute, that is, by section 5 (2) of the Police Forces Amalgamation Act, 1925, and the Third Schedule to that Act, as amended by the Garda Síochána Acts of 1945 and 1962. In addition to the five commissioners and the surgeon, the statutory maximum establishment is now 29 chief superintendents, 157 superintendents, 110 inspectors, 70 station sergeants, 1,350 sergeants and 6,000 gardaí. It is now necessary to increase the statutory maximum number of inspectors and also, possibly, of one or more other ranks. To enable this to be done an amending Bill is required and the opportunity is being taken to avoid the need for having a special Bill passed through all its Stages in each House of the Oireachtas whenever such increases are necessary. This is not the case with the Army or the Civil Service and there seems to be no good reason why the Garda Síochána should have to be treated specially. However, the Bill does provide that any order made by the Government under the Bill will be liable to annulment by either the Dáil or the Seanad, so that each House of the Oireachtas will continue to exercise a measure of control in these matters.

I am glad to announce that the strength of the Garda Síochána will be further increased by 600 in the coming financial year. This increase is in addition to the extra 400 announced last year, half of whom have already been recruited. It is also in addition to recruitment to replace normal wastage. This means that compared with a year ago the Garda force will have an increase of 1,000 men bringing the strength to 7,560 the highest ever. This increase will be a substantial help in dealing with the increased incidence of crime and will improve the effectiveness of the protection given by the Garda Síochána to the community.

The additional recruitment, as well as the recruitment to replace normal wastage, will mean that in the next 12 months over 900 recruits will be needed. To encourage candidates to come forward exemption from the qualifying educational examination is being given to persons who have the leaving certificate and have passed, or as the case may be, have obtained grade D or better, in Irish and English. Moreover, the minimum height for male candidates has been reduced from 5' 9" to 5' 8" and the upper age limit has been extended from 25 to 26 years. The lower age limit of 18 years has been amended to allow candidates to be accepted who have attained 18 years on the 1st day of the month in which the examination is held.

To enable candidates to take advantage of these changes, the date of the next entrance examination is being postponed from 2nd to 23rd March and the latest date for receipt of completed applications is being extended to 25th February.

I am sure that Deputies will welcome the steps that are being taken to strengthen the force at the present time. It is evidence of my determination and that of the Government to see that positive steps are taken to deal with the substantial increase of crime which we, in common with so many other countries, are now faced with. At the same time, I must confess to some feeling of regret—and I am sure my feeling will be shared by every responsible citizen—that in this the 50th year of the force's history the situation should require such a large addition to its strength. To some extent, of course, the addition reflects the benefits of the reduced working hours given to the force two years ago and this is to be welcomed. But as the main reason is to improve the community's defence against lawbreakers I think I should refer to the present crime situation. In the year ended 30th September, 1970—the last year for which final figures are available— the total number of indictable crimes known to the Garda was 30,756, which represents an increase of 4,784 or 18.4 per cent on the figures for the previous year, which in turn were 2,868 or 12.4 per cent up on the figures for the year ended 30th September, 1968.

As in previous years, about two-thirds of the total number of indictable crimes consisted of offences against property without violence, mainly larcenies. In fact, while offences against the person have been almost constant over the past four years, offences against property show a steady increase and the 1970 figure is 4,807 greater than the 1969 figure, an increase of 19.7 per cent. The bulk of the increase is attributable to increases in three specific categories: larcenies from unattended vehicles increased by 1,853, housebreaking by 1,510 and larcenies, not otherwise defined, of property of less than £50 in value by 703.

As the House is aware, in recent times an unusually large number of armed robberies have been committed. In the year ended 30th September, 1970, 17 of these crimes were committed while in the year to 30th September last 30 were committed.

In 1970 proceedings were instituted by the gardaí in respect of 13,710 indictable offences known to them—44.5 per cent of the total. In 1,532 other cases, representing a further 5 per cent, the Garda Síochána were fully satisfied that they knew who was responsible but because the person could not be found or because evidence was inadmissible proceedings could not be instituted. The overall detection rate was 50 per cent, as compared with 61 per cent in the previous year. In the Dublin Metropolitan Area the detection rate was 37 per cent, while in the rest of the country it was 69 per cent.

In this connection I think I should repeat what I said in the House before Christmas on the motion for the adjournment, in relation to comparisons with other countries. It is true that the increase in the incidence of crime in this country in recent years is matched by corresponding or greater increases in other countries even though most of them have had, for very many years, a substantially higher rate of crime so that, starting from a much lower base, so to speak, a higher percentage increase might have been expected here. Likewise, the detection rate here, while it has, unfortunately, fallen, still compares very well with that in other countries in which urban populations are growing. In view of the highly developed communications which exist nowadays, it is unrealistic to suppose that we in this country can escape the effects of what is happening all around us. I think we must accept that, despite our best endeavours, it is almost inevitable that the crime rate here will tend to become higher than we have been accustomed to in the past. This does not mean that there is any complacency about the present situation. As Minister for Justice, I fully accept that we should make every effort to curb, and if possible reverse, the upward trend in crime which has been manifesting itself in recent years and the recruitment of an additional 1,000 gardaí is an earnest of my determination. Apart from the recruitment of additional gardaí, female clerical assistants are being employed to do routine office work now being done by gardaí. Some 70 have already been recruited and the immediate target is 150. Furthermore, parking controls in the cities are more and more being exercised by wardens, thus relieving a substantial number of gardaí for other work.

The financial provision for the purchase of Garda cars is almost double what it was last year. I am assured that, on the basis of present deliveries and on the authorisation already given to make preliminary arrangements for the purchase of the Commissioner's full requirements in the coming year, there should be no ground for complaint on this score.

As regards communications, the provision of a new Garda communications centre is urgently required and this project is being given priority. I had hoped that some type of prefabricated building could be used until the permanent buildings were ready but for technical reasons, related to the nature of the equipment, prefabricated construction would not be suitable. The arrangements for the purchase of modern communication equipment are proceeding at the same time. As regards the national network, when it became clear to me that the permanent system that is being planned would take several years to complete, a special temporary project was initiated to give reasonable coverage over the country until the permanent network is in operation. The temporary system is expected to be in operation within the next six months or so.

In the matter of organisation, too, I should, perhaps, mention the creation in Dublin of a special Garda task force consisting of a superintendent and 26 members of other ranks. This task force has already acquitted itself well and further similar units may be created in the future.

As regards Garda building, since 1st April last, five stations have been erected and seven more are at present under construction. With a view to expediting work on the building programme the provision of system-built official houses and stations at small rural centres is at present being examined and it is expected that ten new system-built stations and houses will be provided before the end of the financial year. I have also under consideration the setting up of a separate unit in my Department to deal exclusively with the programme of building for the Garda Síochána and other services for which I am responsible.

As regards the Conroy Commission, most of its recommendations, as Deputies will be aware, have long been implemented. These include all those recommendations relating to pay, allowances, hours of work and rest days which, financially, were of greatest significance both as regards benefit for members and cost to the Exchequer. Others gave rise to detailed negotiations with the Garda Representative Bodies. Among these were the recommendations for a contributory widows' and children's pension scheme. This scheme came into operation on 1st January. It applies to members of the force serving on or after 23rd July, 1968. All future entrants to the force will be pensionable under the scheme but participation by those now serving is voluntary. Like the scheme in the Civil Service, half the cost will be borne by the State and half by the participants. The contribution by each participant will be 1½ per cent of pay. Under the scheme, a Garda widow will receive half the pension to which her husband would be entitled on retirement. Additional benefits will be payable in respect of dependent children. These benefits are in addition to the minimum level of benefits provided under the existing Garda pensions scheme. An ex-gratia scheme, which applies to the widows and children of members who died or retired on pension before 23rd July, 1968, is already in operation.

A further recommendation which gave rise to long negotiations was that relating to new discipline regulations. The new regulations have now been made by me with the concurrence of the Government and have been in operation since 8th December. They will, I am confident, remove the source of any grievances.

Another important step which followed from a recommendation of the Conroy Commission was the establishing within the force of a research and planning unit. At present, it consists of four senior Garda officers, an operations research officer from the Department of Finance and a senior officer from the Department of Justice. The unit is responsible for the development of new equipment, such as communications, transport and office equipment. It will study new techniques so as to enable the gardaí to deal promptly and effectively with changes in the pattern of crime and the behaviour of criminals. It has already undertaken studies of the systems of recruitment, training and promotion within the force.

As I informed the House on 4th November, I have also set up a special committee consisting of senior officers of my Department and of the Garda Síochána to supervise and direct the operation of the unit. It is my intention to keep in close touch with the work of the unit and ensure that the problems facing us are tackled as speedily as possible and that the right solutions are found and implemented.

In these matters there will be continuing consultation with the three Representative Bodies and their views or suggestions will be taken into account. In addition, the Commissioner is arranging that, in future, there will be regular consultation between the local branches of the Representative Bodies and the local Garda officers so that local problems may as far as possible be identified and examined at the earliest possible moment.

Finally, I should like to emphasise that I regard the welfare of the gardaí and the maintenance of their morale and their efficiency as matters of the highest importance and that I am, and always have been, prepared, within the limits of our resources, to remove any legitimate grievance they may have. It is inevitable, with such a large force, that there will be individuals, and, perhaps, groups, who are dissatisfied from time to time though I think it is somewhat unfortunate that the views of these members are regularly given such wide publicity. It should be said, too, that there are bound to be some defects in any large organisation. I am confident, however, that with the large addition to its strength, the improvements being made in its communications and equipment, the review of the present methods of manpower utilisation, training, recruitment and promotion and the arrangements for meetings at local level between the Garda representatives and their officers, a solid basis for advance is being laid and that the force can be relied upon to live up to the tradition it has established over the 50 years of its existence and continue to serve and protect the community in the difficult times that may be ahead.

(Cavan): The object of this Bill, as the Minister has told us, is to enable the Government to determine from time to time the strength of the Garda Síochána and the various ranks in the force. In so far as this Bill will enable the Government to increase the strength of the force, I welcome it. As I will point out later on, the strength of the force has been pathetically inadequate for some considerable time. That inadequacy is reflected both within the Garda and in the country as a whole. I believe that the proposal of the Minister to increase the strength of the Garda Síochána by 600 this year in addition to the 400 which he says he brought in last year is totally inadequate and will not do more than offset the natural decrease from retirements in the force. In 1942 there was a large influx into the Garda and there will be an equally large falling off by way of retirements in 1972 and 1973. However, as I say, we propose to accept this Bill and agree to its passing through the House in the hope that the Minister will increase the strength of the Garda and bring it up to sufficient numbers.

The Title of the Bill and its provisions provide an opportunity to discuss in this House the Garda as a whole, to examine the disquiet and unrest which prevail within the force, to try to find out the causes of this sorry state of affairs and to urge on the Minister and the Government to take the necessary steps to remedy it. As the Minister has pointed out, this is the 50th anniversary of the establishment of the Garda Síochána as we know it, the 50th anniversary of the foundation of the State, and it can be truly said that for very many years the Garda, our unarmed police force, was the pride and the joy of this nation. The policy of the force was clearly defined by the Government, through the Department of Justice. What I will describe as the Commissioner's board clearly knew and understood their duties. There was no political or departmental interference in the day to day or month to month running of the force. The Commissioner and his deputies and assistants, through the other officers, operated a disciplined, happy, contented and, within its code, independent police force. The rank and file and the officers had complete confidence in headquarters and the country in general had confidence in and respect for the force.

The calibre of the personnel of the Garda has not changed. We have as fine a body of men in the Garda Síochána now as ever we had. Indeed, many of the present men are the sons of foundation members of the force, men who were born in Garda barracks throughout the length and breadth of this country. They, together with the other recruits throughout the country, continue to form individually as fine a collection of men as any country would wish to boast about. In the old days, the appearance of the Garda band filled any gathering with pride—the ceremonial band of an unarmed but very efficient and disciplined police force. As I say, the personnel of the force has not changed, but we have not got within the force the same happy and dedicated atmosphere that prevailed in the past. There is unrest throughout the force. Its morale is weak. The Minister touched on that in his speech but gave the impression that it was only a matter of isolated instances here and there. Notwithstanding that the force as a whole is better paid, better housed, has less hours to work and is paid for overtime, discontent is rampant. The force feels that it is not giving a proper service to the public and I regret to say that, due to matters I will deal with later on, the public has not the same confidence in the force as it had.

The Minister said that the recommendations of the Conroy Report which involved an expenditure of money have been complied with, that these recommendations meant increases in monetary benefits to the force and a cost to the Exchequer. He went on to say that other recommendations in the Conroy Report were receiving serious consideration and would be dealt with later on. The present unrest in the force, the breakdown in morale, is proof positive that money is not everything. It is proof positive that there is something over and above monetary considerations troubling the Garda. Crime in the country has increased enormously and the rate of detection has fallen, and I am told that when the next return of the Commissioner is published, the detection rate will show a further sharp decline. As evidence of the unrest, as evidence of the unhappy state of affairs within the Garda, we had strikes within the rank and file over the past 12 months. We have further strikes threatened, that is, so far as the rank and file are concerned. I understand that at officer level at the present time, protest meetings are being held throughout the country by the officers of the Garda, with the consent of the Commissioner and the Minister, because, of course, if that consent had not been obtained, these protest meetings being held by the officers would be in breach of regulation and, I believe, would be unlawful.

The state of the Garda Síochána at present has become a national issue and we have now reached the stage when one of the national newspapers, interpreting public opinion and sensing the unsatisfactory state of the relations between the force, its headquarters, the Department and the Minister, sees fit to run a series of articles entitled "A People's Police or an Arm of the Government". I refer to an article which appeared in today's Irish Times headed by this introduction: “In three articles Conor Brady analyses the process which has undermined the Garda Síochána and the country's law-and-order machine, bringing them close to complete breakdown”. That is the introduction and, with the permission of the Chair, I shall quote, not at great length but at some length, from this article because I think it highlights the feeling in the country at present in relation to the unhappy state of affairs within the force.

The article states:

In the five months since this observer has ceased writing on the day-to-day activities of the gardaí, the condition of the force has deteriorated even further. Five months ago, a handful of perceptive and far-seeing gardaí were concerned at the force's performance. Today, it is difficult to find a garda of any rank who does not have his personal inefficiency story to tell. One man tells of the patrol car which never came in answer to his call for assistance while he struggled for 20 minutes with a dangerous man along the Dublin quays. Another tells of the two patrol cars which broke down simultaneously while chasing a wanted criminal.

Another tells of the detective unit which has actually been reduced in strength in spite of a crime increase in its district of over 40 per cent in the past 18 months. In the past year, morale in the Garda Síochána has dropped to a point which many members describe as its lowest since the foundation of the force. Its performance and efficiency has dropped to a level which in a British police force would almost certainly have resulted in the resignation of the Chief Constable and a Home Office inquiry.

Two or three decades of mismanagement, accentuated by the present political condition of the country, have brought the Garda Síochána and other essential elements of the justice machine, to a near-halt.

One final quotation:

The deterioration of the force has come about, perhaps paradoxically, at a time when the lot of the Garda is far better in terms of pay and conditions than it ever has been. The recommendations of the Conroy Commission have given the gardaí of all ranks a fair rate of pay, regulated hours of work, a chance of extra overtime money and a disciplinary code which is, if anything, more liberal than that enjoyed by their British counterparts. Gardaí are no longer obliged to live in barracks and various welfare improvements have been set in train. But those sections of the Conroy Report which recommended very strongly a basic change in the running of the force, have been quietly buried.

That is an extract from a national paper, The Irish Times. It is food for thought that at this time in our history, 50 years after the foundation of the State and of the force, the disquiet, unrest, lack of morale, dissatisfaction with headquarters and the Department of Justice, are so rampant that a newspaper feels justified in writing a series of articles about the matter.

The picture I have presented is a serious one. Gardaí of all ranks and the general public who take an interest in the matter know that it is accurate. It is a state of affairs which cannot be allowed to continue. At any time it would be alarming but in the present state of the country, north and south, it is unthinkable that the national police force is in such an unhealthy condition. We must find the cause or causes of the breakdown in morale, the discontent and lack of confidence and this cause or these causes must in the national interest be removed.

In my opinion the first and most direct and most serious cause of the present deplorable condition of the force is political interference, ministerial and departmental interference in the day-to-day running of the force. This interference goes on in relation to promotion, to transfers and purchases. A few years ago there were serious complaints in the force about promotion by the Minister on political grounds, regardless of merit. I want to make clear that the present Minister was not Minister for Justice then but the then Minister, when the matter was raised in this House, denied political patronage in the case and stated he never met the man referred to until he met him on an inspection. But what that Minister did not tell the House was that the brother of the officer concerned was a key man in the Minister's constituency organisation and that fact was well known in the force at the time and its significance was appreciated and had its effects.

Interference in promotions has gone so far at present that when promotions are announced the rank and file and even officers ask who the promoted people knew or what influence had they. How could the morale of the force be healthy when this goes on? It is most unfair to officers who are promoted on merit and would be promoted if they never sought help or patronage. You do not have to consult gardaí to know the talk that goes on now about promotions. This interference in promotions is not good for the force, does not create respect for the force or add to its independence; in fact, it undermines the force. The interference about which I complain creates an atmosphere of indecision, uncertainty and caution in the commissioner's office. It is the wrong kind of caution; it is a fear to do anything or to take any decision which might be contrary to the wishes of the Minister or his officials. The result is that the force in general have no confidence in Garda headquarters. No lead or clear directives have come to the officers from Garda headquarters. Civil Service caution and self-preservation have invaded the Garda Síochána headquarters and no directives are given to the officers other than vague instructions to meet an emergency.

The lack of confidence and the indecision created by the interference about which I complain have permeated the force with disastrous consequences and have had unsettling effects on the officers. I know I shall be accused of making a political speech but I welcome this opportunity of speaking in order to discharge my duties in relation to this matter. Lest it may be said or thought that this is a political speech not warranted by the facts, I wish to put on the record that my case is corroborated by the Conroy Report.

A commission were set up some years ago under the distinguished chairmanship of Judge Conroy. They sat for about 12 months and they reported expeditiously to the Minister. The commission consisted of Judge Conroy; Mr. Ivor Kenny; Mr. Patrick Noonan, then president of the Incorporated Law Society; Mr. Gerard Quinn; Mr. William P. Quinn, who was either commissioner or a retired commissioner of the Garda Síochána. They presented their report on 15th January, 1970. In relation to the matters I have been discussing, they stated at paragraph 1266, page 214 of the report:

We would be failing in our duty to the Minister if we did not strongly urge that an examination be carried out by appropriately qualified people into the role, organisation and personnel policy of the force and, in particular, its relationship with the Department of Justice.

1267. For example:

(a) There was evidence of an unclear definition of roles as between the Department of Justice and the Garda Síochána. Specifically, there was a vagueness, causing uncertainty and ineffectiveness, about the relationship between the Department and the commissioner. There seemed to us to be a lack of delegation from the Department to the force. This lack of delegation permeated the force. Authority—particularly in relation to financial resources— was not commensurate with responsibility, causing an unhealthy "them and us" attitude.

(b) There was no comprehensive planning based on research. No one was specifically charged with this function. The result was reaction to circumstances and ad hoc decision making.

(c) There was no clear personnel policy. We found it disturbing that, in a force of this size, there was no one with specific responsibility for developing an on-going personnel policy, including training and re-training.

I should like to ask the Minister what, if anything, has been done in regard to those obeservations?

A great deal has been done and I referred to this in my speech.

(Cavan): I do not think the Minister dealt very fully with it.

I will deal more fully with the matter in my reply.

(Cavan): If I have done nothing else, I am glad that I have provoked the Minister into stating that he will deal with this matter in his reply. I am not saying that in any offensive way. I urge the Minister to take his hands, from the political point of view, and the unnecessary interfering hands of his Department, out of the Garda Síochána. I make that plea in all sincerity. The Minister may have inherited what is going on there but he would be doing a good day's work for the country if he would re-establish the Garda Síochána as an independent force under its officers. To restore confidence in the force and to restore the morale of the force, a policy authority should be set up to run the force. There is precedence for that in other countries. In the meantime, any suggestion of political influence must be removed from promotions and merit must be seen to prevail.

I understand that the commissioner, his deputies and assistants, draw up for each year a list of those recommended for promotion from the rank of inspector to superintendent and from the rank of superintendent to chief superintendent. Often this list is not acted on by the Government——

That is incorrect.

(Cavan): I will give the Minister an opportunity of proving that. I am putting it to him that there are instances when that list was not acted on by the Government, who eventually make the appointments. The list of those recommended for promotion is not published; it is not even published within the force, the contents are not conveyed to the men whose names appear on it. That is not the case for those recommended for promotion to the position of sergeant or for those who are to be appointed as inspectors. The force will know, by rumour and otherwise, that what I say is correct——

Mostly by rumour.

(Cavan): I am saying what members of the force know. If this list is accepted by the Government, if it is strictly followed, why is it not published? What is the object in keeping it secret?

It has never been published.

(Cavan): I am saying that it should be published.

One reason is that the list is longer than the number of vacancies that might come up. It is unfair to officers if they have to wait a further period.

(Cavan): They would know they were on it and that would be something. They would have some hope if they knew they were on the list. This list has been drawn up by officers with a considerable amount of experience. They are experts in the force. I want to call a spade a spade. The only reason for refusing to publish the list is so that political paws can interfere with it.

That is not so. I do not want to interrupt the Deputy but in order to prove that that is not so I will produce last year's list, the original of last year's list, to Deputy Fitzpatrick privately and he can confirm from it that every person named on it has been promoted and that no person whose name is not on it has been promoted.

(Cavan): I am suggesting that the Minister——

That is my offer. I will produce the list privately to Deputy Fitzpatrick and he can confirm what I said.

(Cavan): I will be glad to see it.

In view of that I think it would be most improper for Deputy Fitzpatrick to continue making these allegations. They have no foundation and I can prove that.

(Cavan): I would also be glad to see the list for a number of years back.

We are going on to something different now. The list for 1971 has been completed and that is the only full year for which I have been responsible. I will produce the list for that year.

(Cavan): Will the Minister show me the current list?

I have not got it yet.

(Cavan): I dealt with a specific case. I will not identify anyone but the Minister knows the case. He was not responsible for it. His Department know the case I am talking about. It is still the talk of the force.

Before leaving the position of headquarters vis-á-vis the Minister, I want to deal with the exalted position of the commissioner of the Garda Síochána. In my opinion it is wrong to appoint a stop-gap commissioner. I do not say that in any offensive way. I want to explain what I mean. I do not think it is right to appoint a man to run the force who has only one or two years to go and who will be dependent on the good offices of the Government for an extension or extensions to qualify him for full pension. It is elementary that that is not sound policy. It is elementary that such a man could be putty in the hands of the Government. I do not think that a man with one or two years to go could be expected to have the same interest in the force as a man with several years to go.

In appointing a commissioner of the Garda Síochána the Government should look around for the best possible man and appoint him. It is not right that younger officers should be held back while men with only one or two years to go are appointed and, by the time these brilliant younger men come to be appointed, they too have only a short time to go. The Government should follow the lead of the Church in this modern age who apparently have adopted a policy of appointing younger men as bishops, and appoint younger men as commissioners. I do not want to shoot down men who have passed 60 years of age and who have served the force well but, if an officer of the force has not been lucky enough to rise to the rank of commissioner before he reaches 63 years of age, or thereabouts, it is not worth while appointing him.

We would all like to retire from whatever vocation we are serving in with the highest possible rank and I do not blame members of the force for wanting to wear the commissioner's cap or sit in the commissioner's chair even if they have only six months to go. It is not sound policy and it is not good for the force. It creates the impression that these men are not completely free. I have said all I want to say on general policy with regard to the Garda Síochána and on what I believe has caused considerable unrest amongst all ranks within the force. I will come to the strength of the force later on.

The Minister said that he proposes to alter the qualifications for admission to the force and that he proposes to dispense with the passing of an entrance examination in the case of recruits who have their leaving certificate and have attained a certain standard in Irish and English. I thoroughly agree with that. At present there is a qualifying examination without a standard. It would be no harm to have a standard of some description even if it is the intermediate certificate at the lowest level or some other standard.

The Minister proposes to reduce the qualifying height from 5' 9" to 5' 8''. I wonder is this wise? Personally I do not think it is. I am not making any reflection on anyone in the House but I think a big man looks more imposing. If the Minister wants to qualify more people he might think of reducing the chest measurement qualification. I am told by people who are in a position to know that at 18 years of age men of 5' 11" may have difficulty in qualifying for the present chest measurement. With some of the good grub which the Taoiseach promised during an economic debate some time ago, and with plenty of exercise, they can expand their chest measurements in a very short time. It is unwise of the Minister to reduce the height qualification. I think 5' 9'' is small enough for a member of the force. I am told by the medical profession that without any loss to the force the Minister could reduce the chest measurement. Provided the recruits were healthy and physically fit nature would remedy that in a very short time.

Debate adjourned.
The Dáil adjourned at 10.30 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Thursday, 27th January, 1972.
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